Episode 48: Kimberley Snyder

Well It's such an honor for me. I'm so grateful to have you on today. In particular, I'm a big fan of your book. And being myself was the one that really touched my heart. But I know your new book, You Are the Happiness You Seek, is also a a continuing a continuation and expansiveness of this conversation um that you're putting out into the world. So first of all, thank you so much for sharing so much with all of us.

Thank you. Lovely to to join you today for the conversation. Thank you for asking me.

So The central message that you teach is about this idea of of non-duality, of connecting to the truth of who we are. the the true self we can say. And I think for many of us, Rupert, we hear that and it, you know, to varying degrees it it rings true and we know that yes i i know this intellectually i know this mentally but then the challenge is the integration in daily life especially when things get really triggering or they get challenging or they we start to feel really chaotic

So um, you know, these are big, huge questions. And I know so much of your work is really detailing how we go further along the path. But you know, you talk a lot about self-inquiry. And then there's an aspect of your work where you talk about just being the meditation for beginners who are hearing this idea of non-duality. And it seems like such a big idea. How do you recommend that those just beginning to hear about this start to really Live it or integrate it. Yes. Um

Kimberly, non duality can sound very uh complicated and uh people discuss it and argue about it and it seems complex and sometimes intellectual to people. N non duality Uh it it could not be simpler. Love that. And r really the the the entire i if we were to take the last three thousand years. Of of non-dual philosophy, understanding, practice.

scripture and so on from all the traditions. Yes. And we would we we were to distill it all and and ask w wh what is what is it really about? What what is the essence of it? What what is being said? in all this complexity and it it's very simple. It it boils down to this. Peace and happiness are the nature of our being. And we share our being with everyone and everything. That's it. That's it. Peace and happiness are the very nature of ourselves. and our self, our being, is not

limited to us as an individual. It is shared with everyone. And and this is in fact what we refer to as as love. Yeah. When we love someone, we feel that we're not going to be able to At least to an extent that we are one with them, that everything that separates us from them dissolves. And we call that the experience of love. That's why love always has this.

um melting quality to it, a coming together quality to it. It it is the the dissolution of the sense of separation. In other words, it is the the felt sense of our of our shared being. Th that's it. That's really all the non dual understanding says. Happiness is our nature. And we are one with everyone and everything.

If we've understood that We've understood the essence of all the great religious and spiritual traditions and all that remains is to live the implications of this understanding of the to the best of our abilities in our lives.

Rupert, I come from the the yogic tradition and my my guru is Paramahansa Yogananda, where we talk a lot about the ego and the true self. That's the language that he uses, right? So it's the ego is always this. Fixation on the exterior. And in modern times, we see that even more, right? And practically speaking, with social media and Makeup and the body shape in a million different ways versus this turning the energy inward to the formless self.

In the modern world, there's, you know, we could say, I mean, maybe over all of time, but even more today, Rupert, with the, you know, imagery and everything that is. causing many people to fixate so much out here. What do you think is the antidote for, like as you said, if we're sharing our being, it means this formless part of us versus the denser physical part. What do you think in in modern life is going to help? the suffering of the separation that we see in some ways increasing.

I I think the antidote, Kimberly, is simply to recognise who we essentially are. What what we mean by I or myself. Of course, everybody has a sense of myself. Everybody n not just those of us that are interested in in spiritual matters or or non duality, but all eight billion of us have a have a sense of being myself or I am myself. But whilst everybody has a sense of being myself, not everybody knows their self clearly.

And it is this lack of clear self knowledge that is responsible for the for the sorrow and the suffering on the inside and the conflict on the outside. And that is why all the great Traditions. I'm sure Paramahansa Yogananda would agree with this. All the great traditions sooner or later end up with s self knowledge, this exploration of the nature of ourself. Now, what what does this mean then? exploration of the the nature of ourself. Well ourselves

is um what we always are. Everybody feels I I've been myself all my life. I've been the same self all my life. We don't think I'm a different person today as I was yesterday. I may have different thoughts and feelings today, but I I basically feel I'm the same person that I was that I am today, that I was yesterday, last year and when I was a five year old child. So it uh our essential self is that aspect of us. that remains consistently present throughout all experience. So thought

Feelings, sensations, perceptions. These are always coming and going. They are not what we are, they are experiences that we have. Hm. So for instance, we we say all our lives we say um I am ten years old, I am thirty years old, I am sixty years old, I am cold, I am tired, I am hungry, I'm excited, I'm depressed, and so on. In all of these statements we we refer to this basic I am. And the I AM is always the same. When we say I am tired today.

and we say, I am excited tomorrow and the next day we say I am in love and the next day we say I am depressed. The I am is always the same. The coldness, the tiredness, the feeling of excitement, the feeling of depression, These all change all the time. They're not what we essentially are. But the I am remains consistently present throughout. So the the the the pure I am is what we essentially are. Just our being, j just being.

or just the awareness of being before it is um colored or qualified by experience, before it gets mixed up with the content of experience. It's like the transparent screen behind the movie. The movie represents our thoughts, images, feelings and so on. The transparent screen represents our being.

And most people most people's sense of their self is so mixed up with their thoughts, feelings, sensations and perceptions that they don't know their s essential self clearly. They don't recognize this pure I am. And uh all the really all the great traditions say that the the nature of this I am, the nature of our being is peace and happiness. Yes. I know that's a good idea. The remedy is simply to recognize the essential nature of ourself. And it's not it's not um complicated.

You know the the the term enlightenment or awakening is attached to this recognition and it sounds enlightenment we think it's an extraordinary or an exotic achievement. No, enlightenment just means the recognizing the nature of our being. There's nothing extraordinary about it at all. It's the least extraordinary experience there is. It's just recognizing the nature of our being. uh coloured or qualified by experience.

So enlightenment is not something we become. Because of our exclusive fascination with the content of experience. You know, Rupert, I can I can speak personally and say yes, I can I can recognize The weakness of yes, you know, we are one. This is who I really am. But then going back to practically applying this.

What's been really helpful in my personal practice is actually sitting in meditation and taking that time to withdraw the senses and then feel that peace and then try to bring that more and more into daily life. Because the truth is, Rupert, and I think for a lot of us, I know that what you're saying is true. And then I feel it in meditation. And then, you know, my goal is unconditional love. And sometimes I

embody that and sometimes I stumble and sometimes triggers happen at work or at home or whatever it is. And so we dip in and out of that separation. Even though I recognize the truth. So what do we do about that? Well a as you say, in in meditation you you y we close our eyes, we turn our attention away from thoughts, away from feelings, away from sense perceptions and so on. We we we go back, as it were.

to our being or or to the fact of being aware. We we we go inwards to and then uh uh and then w when we go back out into life again our thoughts, feelings, sensations and perceptions, they obscure our being or they take us away from our being. We lose ourselves in the content of experience. So we could say that in in everyday life, experience obscures our being. Whereas in meditation, being outshines our experience.

Yes. So it's easy when your eyes are closed, you c you turn off your phone, you close I like it in there. You like it in there. Why? Because you but i it's it's it's a little bit like Falling asleep whilst remaining awake. The world leaves you, your troubles leave you, your thoughts and feelings leave you. The difficulties at work leave you. Just remain

in your being. And as you say, you like it there. Why? Because it's peaceful there. It's it's fulfilled. There's no sense of lack there. It it's it's quiet to be joyful there. So but but then in everyday life our experience Veils are being...It doesn't... completely eclipse it, but it veils it in the same way that we might say a movie veils the screen. The movie doesn't really veil the screen. But if we're so fascinated by the

by the drama in the movie, we will seem not to see the screen. Well it's the same thing. We never really lose touch with our being, but if we're so lost in our experience, thought, thoughts, feelings, activities, relationships, we seem to lose touch with our being and therefore we lose touch with its innate peace and quiet joy. So what what to do?

Yes. What do we do in daily days? As you say, we can't close our eyes all day. You can't close your eyes all day, but it's it's good. We we we spend a certain amount of time with with with eyes closed, um going back to being. Um But then the the challenge is to Emphasize your being it not just in the background of experience, but in the midst of experience. So let's say you have the feeling I am lonely.

So you you you you've come out of meditation, you're you're you're you're alone at home and you feel lonely. And normally the feeling of loneliness or anxiety, say, is so intense. that our being gets obscured by it. So when we say I am lonely, we overlook the I am and we emphasize the loneliness. Yes. All that's necessary. You don't have to close your eyes again. You don't have to turn away from the loneliness like you do in meditation.

In this for the same reason that you don't need to turn off the movie to see the screen. The move that the screen is shining in the movie, not just behind the movie. Likewise our being shines in the midst of experience, not just behind experience. So let's say you're feeling lonely. All all it's ne and and so you say to yourself, I I am lonely. Instead of emphasizing the loneliness, you just emphasize the I am.

You can be walking down the street. Um, I'm I'm seeing the I'm seeing the I'm seeing the street, I'm hearing the traffic. Normally the sights and the and the sounds obscure our being. All that's necessary is to emphasize the I am, to remain with the I am in the midst of experience. Wow. Do it now for instance. Just p pause but just ten seconds, close your eyes, go back, just make touch with the fact of simply being.

And now let's open our eyes and continue our conversation, but don't lose touch with being. Just don't let our conversation the sight of each other's face, the sound of each other's voice. Don't let it eclipse your being. Just remain in touch with being, but instead of turning away from our conversation, turn towards it again now. Just now, keep going. Nothing's changed.

Has your being disappeared? Of course not. Your being is exactly the same place as it was ten seconds ago while you were meditating. Don't let the sight of my face or the sound of my voice. and obscure your being. You can be meditating now, in the midst of experience. You don't it's it's good to close the door, shut your eyes, turn your phone off. It's it's of course it's good to do that. But

Don't think that meditation comes to an end when you open your eyes. Keep it going now. Remain in touch with the I am. Remain in touch with your being now. Oh Rubert, you know, i just hearing you this moment it actually makes me feel a little emotional. Because of something I've been going through this

I would call it this big ego death since my last book was published a few months ago, which is actually called You Are More Than You Think You Are And it's based on Yogananda's Teachings from Modern Life. But I found Rupert that I do like my biggest goal is to want to connect more to the I am to the true self.

And then sometimes I struggle to have goals and to want to do things out in the world in this it's great. Have goals, do things in the world. If you're a creative um passionate, energetic person, that's fine. There's absolutely nothing about that that um would prevent you from being established in your true nature in the midst of all your activities and relationships.

If you've if you've got that kind of energetic, creative character, you you you obviously have, then and and you are you are obviously already doing this, just be sure that all your activities, your creativity, your relationships are in service of this understanding. And then go out into the world. Work sixteen day hours a day if you want to. But as as long as you are your your work is um the means by which this understanding is shared in the world, which in your case it it it undoubtedly is.

But remember this little tiny little practice we just did. Yeah. You're obviously used a couple of times a day, you you you you turn your phone off, you close the door, you shut your eyes. You you know how to find your way back to being. You you go there easily. You've been there so many times. You shut your eyes, you're straight there. So now, when you're doing that, just introduce one activity at a time.

Move start moving your arms around. With with your eyes closed, you're meditating, but you're no longer motionless. Yeah, you're moving. But but th so start doing something. To begin with, just start moving your head, moving your but remain in touch with the I am. And then very slowly open your eyes, but remain in touch with the I am. Nothing's changed. Your being hasn't gone anywhere.

Then you start walking around your room. Don't think I've stopped meditating. Now no. Meditation is what you are. It's not what you do. It's what you are. It is your being. You are always your being. Or then you start walking around the room. You're still meditating. You're still in touch with being.

Then turn your phone on again, check your emails, but remain with the I am. Go to work. You're still meditating. You remain with the I am. You'll you'll feel very quickly that you're meditating all day long.

Rupert, let's talk about your perspective of action. Right. So you're saying you're turning on the phone, you're doing things, right? So I've always thought of it in the context of co creating. Right. So there's you know, there's spirit coming through who we really are. But then we are in this human experience having some will. Right. So like you were saying, and then I read the Tao, you know, it talks about do nothing and nothing gets undone and some of this philosophy.

How are we how are we to act? Do we are we so in touch with the I am and we feel this organic intuition moving through us? Or how you know how we're supposed to act in the world. Well there there are the two aspects to the non dual understanding. The first we discussed you are the happiness you seek. Happiness is your nature. The second aspect w and and and that is in relation to our interior life, our thoughts and feelings.

Now the second part of the understanding we share our being with everyone and everything is to do with our activities and relationships in the word our external experience. So and this is this is your your question is about that. It's about action. So just understand this one thing that you share your being with everyone and everything. In other words, we are all one. There are no real independently existing objects or selves. Yes, there are the appearance.

of objects and cells, but the ultimate reality of every one and everything is the same. Many people appearing on one screen. The reality of all the people in the movie is the single screen. And the screen is indivisible. It appears as ten thousand people, but when you run your finger across it, it's all one thing.

So that's all that you need to understand. Now, when you're s now, to go to your question about action, just make sure that your actions in the world Your work in the world, your relationships in the world are an expression of this understanding. That's it. Is the and and in your case is no doubt about it, the work you do, the purpose of it, is to bring this understanding of oneness into the world, to share it with humanity. So as long in other words the work you do is not initiated.

by an individual self for the purpose of that individual self. No, you're using your faculties, your mind, your thoughts, your your your your body, your skills. You're using this in the service of love and understanding, which means in the service of oneness.

No, Rupert Shwami Shri Yuktashwar, who is Yogananda's guru, says, and I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, forget the past, because until we're anchored in God, in the true self, whatever term you want to use. human behavior is unstable. So we're listening to Rupert and we think, yes, we want to be in service to the love and oneness. But what if we Get impatient with our partner? What if we, you know, fall off the path? Are we to feel shame or do we how do we

Come back and forgive ourselves. Okay. What happens you get impatient with your partner, you get upset, you get irritated, you get angry, you say something unkind that you know you're going to regret later. Okay, pause. Or you or you find you're arguing uh w with your partner having uh some kind of conflict pause, go back to the basic understanding. We are one. Yes, we appear to be true people.

But behind the appearance, behind what seems to separate us, our thoughts, our bodies, our feelings, our actions, behind all of that, we are the same being. That's what the experience of love is, the felt sense of oneness. So you pause the the conflict, the irritation with the argument, connect with that feeling. Yes, my partner, uh their behavior.

Their their their activities are irritating me. But the be but make contact with the being behind that. Don't don't focus on the actions, the activities, the thoughts, the behavior. feel that you and your partner are literally the same being. And then carry on the conversation. You know, that you were you were arguing about something there was something to be discussed. S some issue cropped up in your relationship and it needed addressing, that's fine.

But but the the conflict, the hostility, the the little quippy comments and everything, they come because we feel at that moment that our companion is someone other than ourself. Mm-hmm. If if you make I if you really feel you The being of your partner is the being of yourself. If you feel that, I know we all understand this, but if we feel it, if we pause,

And we really feel that about the other and then allow that feeling to inform the conversation. You carry on discussing whatever it was that needed to be discussed. But it's almost impossible for there to be hostility and conflict if we feel this. So it's over. Same same as so at at work or or at work situation or um sorry, I interrupted you. No, what you were saying is it seems like it's so important to take these pauses. Exactly. It just because because w we we've we've got irritated

We've at that moment we've forgotten that that we are the other, that that the other and ourselves are are one and the same being. We've forgotten that. We've just temporarily overlooked that because of something they did or something they said. And that makes me feel separate and I think that they're separate and I'm irritated with them and and so on. Pause. And

It it doesn't you don't need to pause for twenty minutes. You can pause for ten seconds. I i when you get s um practiced at this, you can pause for two seconds. In in time, you won't even need to pause. You'll you'll catch yourself mid flow, mid mid-sentence, and there'll be this recognition. I'm speaking to my partner. I've forgotten that that that my partner is the same being that I am. And you just pause there. You can pause mid sentence and say, oh

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that. Two seconds, pause, reset the place you're coming from, and then you carry on with the conversation. Yeah. Just these tiny pauses. that they're like homeopathic pauses. They seem to be almost nothing. But they have a tremendous effect on our relationships. Mm-hmm. In relationship with with self.

As well. You know, we we talk about the other person that it's easier to object things. Absolutely. So i i in these little pauses, uh y y you you may have a a meditation practice before you go to work, you sit for twenty minutes or half an hour and the same in the evening. But

When you're in the middle of a busy day, you don't have time to to to turn your computer off and sit for twenty minutes. But we all have time in between emails to pause for twenty seconds. It it's all that's necessary, particularly if you have this well established practice that you do where you're where you're used to going back to your being and and resting there morning and evening. Then in the day it doesn't take much.

All you need to do is pause between emails, between calls, pause, close your eyes, go back to being for twenty seconds, and then you go out into the world again.

Rupert. There's so many things I want to ask you, but you know, this this experience, this really beautiful, expanded experience, which feels so poignant now while we're speaking, especially. One of the biggest stumbling blocks I think a lot of us can relate to is big emotions.

Right, especially connected to say childhood triggers where you can start to see, Oh, this really bothers me and this happened in the past. But you still may feel that victim mode or you may feel that heart closing to certain situations. Now there's certain um Philosophers along with we'll call him philosophers along the way. Dr. David Hawkins, if you're familiar with him, he talks about leaning into the feeling until it metabolizes, so to speak.

What would you say, let's say just that anger rises up or that familiar feeling of whatever it is, sadness or not being seen or whatever it is? What what what do we do? Mm all our lives we have tried to find um Strategies coping mechanisms for dealing with this uh well of painful emotions and th there are all sorts of uh from substances to activities to

to excessive thinking. There there are all kinds of uh strategies we employ. Uh all of them really Um they all serve one purpose and that is to prevent us From having to fully feel the discomfort of these feelings. Anything, anything would be better. So we we all we all have our I mean, the the repertoire from which we choose is not that broad, but we all have our own Uh uh well tried and tested means of of avoiding the discomfort of these feelings. So w what to do?

Do the one thing we've probably never done, which is not to do anything to them. Turn towards them. instead of turning away from them. Turn towards first of all turn towards them and then actually welcome them. They've always been the enemy. We've always thought, what can I do about these feelings? How can I get rid of them? Go to therapy, practice this, always what can we do? And the question the the the the the the real question behind what can we do is how can we get rid of them?

The one thing that we've probably never done is ceased trying to get rid of them. Turn towards them and actually welcome them. Do the opposite of trying to get rid of them. Say, Turn towards this deep sorrow or loneliness or the feeling of being unloved. Almost you can almost personify the feeling. You can almost say to it, All my life I have been escaping from you. I've been trying to get rid of you.

through um through substances, through activities, through therapy, even through spiritual practice. We is a sort of refined form of trying to get rid of uncomfortable feelings. And none of it works. The one thing we haven't done is turn towards these feelings. And in order to do that we really have to stand first as the presence of awareness. We have to know ourselves as the open, empty space of awareness and and to allow the feeling to come into that space.

Because the the the space of awareness is like a physical space. It is completely without resistance. So if we take our stand As this open, empty space of awareness, then from that point of view, the feeling is welcome. It can stay forever if it wants to. So th that's what I would recommend, turning first turning towards the feeling and then actually positively welcoming it, befriending it, giving giving this. It's uh you almost feel that you embrace the feeling rather than reject it.

And then where's the line, Rupert, before we were saying I am lonely, where you shift to the I am. Where's

How do we know you say embracing the loneliness versus shifting it back to being this? Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. Th there are two different approaches really. Kimberly. The first approach is more the Vantic approach. The second approach is where w where we turn away from the content of experience. The second approach is more the tantric approach where we

are inclusive of all experience. And I I and these are very often um described as being two conflicting approaches. No, they're complementary. the more deeply we we Turn away from our experience initially and just rest in being, or being aware, that the more that is strengthened in us, we we begin to be established. In our true nature of simply being and b or being aware. And then from that perspective,

We are then able to turn round towards the feeling and and welcome it into us without resistance. So that they are completely complementary. I I I would recommend practicing both. First thing in the morning. Cl close your eyes.

Turn your attention away from your thoughts, away from your feelings, away from the world and but then on other at other times y you'd you do the opposite. You still in meditation You can keep your eyes closed, but instead of turning away from the feeling, you turn towards it and and just say, I I am this

open, empty space of awareness. You are completely welcome inside me. You can stay for as long as you like. I offer you no resistance whatsoever. Because it's not Really the feeling that is painful, it is our resistance to it that is painful. Rupert, as someone that's been practicing this for years, do you feel that because you've been non-resistant for so long, the big feelings are coming less or do this live it costs. Yes. The the they come less and when they do come they last for less time.

That's one thing. What I mean is our our reactive emotions come less. When we're in a a situation that would previously have triggered us, hurt us, upset us, we d we' we're we're less easily upset because we're more established in the fact of simply being. So we're upset l um less and less often and if something does uh um agitate or upset us, it doesn't last long.

It doesn't last for three days and turn into a big conflict with your partner. It lasts for three minutes and then you find your way back home. So that's one thing. But there's another thing which which you alluded to, and that is that these very old feelings that that that we have, the the th that that were laid down usually very early on in our lives. That the the samskaras i i in in in your in the yogic tr tradition.

Um these are feelings that are not the result of reacting to a current situation. They already lie in the depth. of our heart. Yes, they might be triggered by a an outside event, but they're not caused by the event. So th and there is th in in I was gonna say in almost all of us, I think it would be true to say in all of us, that there is this residue of of of feelings, these residues of of um

samskaras that um that are buried mostly in the body. And the more established one is in one's in one's true nature, the less Tendency we have to suppress these feelings. So they actually begin to come up, and that's very healthy. Because the the the the as these feelings um emerge from their hiding places in the body. They they bubble up into the light of awareness. And then in time they are able to dissolve. But in order to dissolve, they have to first come up into the light of awareness.

So there's less th that's another consequence uh of um being more established in one's being is that that we don't suppress these feelings. They're not so overwhelming. They're allowed to come up and they're just processed naturally in the space of awareness and in time gradually dissolve. Would you call this shadow work? Could we say this is starting to do it? You could call it shadow work, yes. Yes, exactly. It would be the the the um the exposing

And the gradual dissolving of the of the feelings that live in in the shadows. In other words, the feelings that are not normally available to us in the waking state. Yes, you could call it shadows.

And do you also find Rupert along this path? I could say in my personal experience, when you're remorse, you get to be more connected, established as you say. I have less desire to do things. I mean, I I'm still in the world, but I used to make a lot of time with recipes and foods. Now I eat very simply.

I don't I'm not drawn to screens. My parents in law are here now and they can't believe I don't want to watch movies and they probably think I'm a very boring person. But it just I don't know, life feels The reason why w we kept ourselves busy twenty four seven was because uh as long as our attention is directed towards something.

A person, activity, a thought, uh then we don't have to feel this emptiness inside. Yes. So much of our activities, n not not not now, but much of the previous activities that you you described. That their purpose was really to um um prevent you having to feel the unbearable um emptiness or loneliness or dissatisfaction So now that there's less of that in you, there's no need, you don't want to be distracted from yourself anymore. Because when you go inside yourself,

It's not a turmoil of sorrow and anxiety. You find the peace of your being. You don't need to distract yourself. You don't want to distract yourself. from your feelings all the time through substances, activities, relationships and so on, you're actually quite home, quite quite, quite, quite happy. Being quietly at home, not doing very much, because your your happiness, your peace

It's no longer invested in the world. It doesn't mean say that you don't interact with the world. You still interact with the world. You have friendships, you you you you have activities, but but your happiness is no longer invested there. Your happiness you found the source of your happiness, so you're not constantly seeking happiness out in the world. On the contrary

Your activ the purpose of your activities is to bring the happiness or the peace that is inside you out into the world. You don't you don't use the world for to find happiness. On the contrary, you bring your you use your happiness in service of the world, not the world in service of your happiness.

It's almost like Rupert this dissolving of trying. You're not trying to be something in the world. Character because we we all have unique we all have thoughts, feelings, skills, activities, proclivities, and and so on. So Uh because the the um the the ego and the sense of lack that is inherent in the ego is no longer driving your activities, all your all your skills

are available, but they're no longer used in service of the fears and the neuroses and the anxieties of the ego. They are now available to be used in service of of love, of understanding, truth, beauty. No, Rupert, when you when you were talking about at first though, people may think, Okay, I'm gonna follow Rupert's teachings and I go inside.

And at first it doesn't feel very good in there. Like you said, there's a lot of anxiety that comes up this emptiness because there people are so used to feeling life. So what do you say to people that are like, okay, I tried it and it didn't feel good to get net underneath that. Okay, so let's say you you you go inside and as you say the first thing you find uh uh the first thing we find is a a layer of thoughts. Ask yourself the question, but what is it that is aware of my thoughts?

I am aware of my thoughts. Whatever it is that is aware of our thoughts is not itself a thought. Okay, so we just take a step back from the thoughts. I am that which is aware of the thoughts. And then you hit this layer of feelings. Ask yourself the question, but what is it that is aware of these feelings? Whatever it is that is aware of our feelings is obviously not itself a feeling. What is that? You take a step back.

you realise, oh I am the one that is aware of my thoughts and feelings. I am not the thoughts and feelings themselves. The thoughts and feelings are always appearing and disappearing. I am the one that is further back I'm watching them, I'm witnessing them, I'm aware of them. And that for for for many people that this is really the first great recognition. I am nothing that I am aware of. I am that which is aware.

Oh, previously I felt that I was just this bundle of thoughts and feelings and bodily sensations. Now I've taken a step back. from all of that. I am the one that is aware of all of these. All of these are continually changing. No thought or feeling or sensation lasts for long. But but I The one who is aware of these, I'm always present in the background of my experience, always just looking, watching, knowing, aware of the content of my experience.

J just this step brings a measure of peace, because we we step out of the turmoil of thoughts and feelings. So much suffering, Rupert. You said this changeless nature is because we want to cling to things being a certain way. My my younger son is is not yet two. And sometimes I walk around with him and these mothers have older kids and they just think

Oh, I wish my kids were young again. I've missed that so much. I'm missing out on that. Right. So their hearts are suffering because they've attached or they've projected their happiness into that one.

Experience So what we You know, I I think I know the answer, but I love to hear you eloquently say when that suffering comes from a memory or something we can't hold on to or you know women age their faces well everybody ages but women in particular or whoever today feels like oh I'm changing or this was like this and this so it's like this clinging Yes, yes, so um aging, um any kind of aging, any sort of failure, any kind of letting go i e everything has to be let go of sooner or later.

Our thoughts, our feelings, sensations, activities, relationships. And in fact, if you think about what happens when we go to sleep at night. What what happens when we go to sleep at night? We let go of everything. Our thoughts, our most intimate feelings, our most treasured relationships. We let go of all of them. But we remain Well it it it's the same. We just... We just let go let everything that comes come.

Wha while it is present we we are we're aware of it and then when it goes we we let it go. But we remain as the one we always remain as the presence of awareness. Presence of awareness is like the space of a room. Whatever ha wh whatever comes into the room the space allows it, whatever exists in the room the space allows it, and whatever ent leaves the room, the space doesn't hold on to it. It doesn't say, Oh, where did that person go? I want it back again.

And the more established we are in the fact of simply being or being aware, the more able we are to simply let experience flow through us. without seeking what is not present and without r rejecting or holding on to what is present. We in other words, our peace, we begin to derive our peace from our being, not from what's happening in our life. our piece is the peace of our true nature is prior to thoughts, feelings, activities, relationships. It is just the fact of being.

That's tremendously comforting to know that it does get e easier in the sense we're less attached the more established we are here. Yes. Yes. There's less because we in because our ident we because we derive our identity, our security, our peace from our being. There's less need to manipulate our external circumstances for the purpose of

d deriving peace and happiness from them. It doesn't mean to say that we stop attending to to to to to our lives, to our children, uh and but but our peace and our joy is no longer invested in them. We begin to be we begin to be stable in our true nature. And then that that enables us to to let go, to let things go when they go, to let them come when they come, and uh t to just to remain quietly in being as being.

Thank you so much, Rupert. I am a reader by nature. And as I mentioned, I really do love your books as a writer myself, but I have to say that being in your presence is incredibly Powerful. And I know that one of the things that you offer, and I spent a lot of time also looking at your site are these incredible videos. And so I would encourage everybody.

Listening to this to also check them out. We will have a direct link in the show notes because sometimes, as you know, Rupert, it's the energy. And sometimes we receive things through the written word, but we can receive. In presence. Yes, yes, absolutely. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.

Kimberly th thank you. It's been a beautiful conversation. Thank you for your for your love of truth and for everything you do. And please tell me again the name of your book, I'm going to I'm going to look it up. But It's called um You Are More Than You Think You Are. Practical Enlightenment for everything. Perfect. Very good. I'll I'll get a copy. I look forward to having a look at it. Oh, thank you so much, Rupert. And thank you again for all your time and wisdom.

Thank you, Kimberly. Take good care.