Episode 40: Jonny Wilkinson

So Mr Rupert Spire, thank you very, very much for being here. It's a real privilege and honour to have you as part of this discussion, and thank you so much for inviting us into your your home as well. First of all, how are you? Very well, thank you, Johnny. And not towards it's a pleasure to be here talking.

Brilliant. Well, thank you. This is the I Am podcast centered around potential, human potential, and inner transformation. I understand something that you've experienced and I would love to hear more about that. So can you give us your definition of transformation? What does it mean to you?

Yes, het is... Quite so much a transformation as a a recognition of uh something that has in fact o always been present and is always the case. but has not been recognized. I don't speak so much in terms of a transformation of ourself, but rather a recognition of our essential self, which we

Perhaps didn't recognise before because our sense of ourself was so entangled with the content of our experience, with our thoughts, with our history, with our memories, with our activities and relationships. So whilst whilst everybody has a sense I am myself. U not everybody knows their self clearly because their sense of self is so uh mixed up with or conditioned by.

their thoughts, their history, their relationships. So what I speak about, what I try to lead people towards, i is the recognition of their essential Self. superfluous to us or extraneous to us ha ha has been removed. Sometimes I I I liken it to to undressing. The way when you undress at night, we take off everything that is not essential to us.

Our bodies don't become transformed in the experience, our bodies are just revealed in the experience. So I I I like the title of your podcast, uh I am, because when we say I am We refer to just the essential sense of of being, just the fact of being. Yeah. When we say I am this or I am that, we add something to ourselves. And that's the clothing.

And that's the clothing, exactly. Uh I I am a mother, I am a father, I am a doctor, I am a nurse, I am a bus driver. W we're not always a a a mother or a father, but we We always are. So once we've taken the clothing off, that the I am refers to our essential being. The I am this or I am that refers to our essential being plus uh the conditions, the qualities, the limitations of experience. And as a result of this this mixture of our essential self.

with the objective elements of experience. W uh our sense of self acquires limitations, conditions. So it it it's a kind of psychological undressing. The the podcast called I Am for that exact reason as to what is that essential I am. And I've I love the idea that. Even some of the sages when in translating the the original message have sort of said, I am. I am is who I am. There's nothing more you can add, there's nothing more you can be.

that recognition of that for you were there key moments where it it sort of Took hold, gathered momentum, or was it something that was always taking place for you? Or when that recognition, how did that come about? I was interested in these matters from quite an early age, from my mid teens onwards. And like many people I I travelled not in fact physically but but more intellectually to the east to look for because this understanding all although it's

It i it is present in in the Christian tradition, but it's it's buried underneath of l layers of doctrines that have been added later on. So I couldn't find this understanding anywhere in my own culture. So like many people in the this was now the mid to late seventies, I went um intellectually east to India and explored i Indian philosophy. But again, like many people, I misunderstood what was being spoken.

of enlightenment for for want of a better word, which which is a awakening is the kind of common word for for what we're speaking of. And it was always Well, whether or not it was presented as such, I don't know, but I certainly understood it to refer to an extraordinary, exotic experience, better than any experience one could possibly imagine. So I spent twenty years.

Really uh striving to have this experience that and uh in in fact, as you said earlier on, to to to transform myself. An enlightened self, a realised self and And of course it was a a frustrating project. It wasn't until I was maybe twenty years after twenty years that my understanding began to change and I realised that what is referred to as enlightenment or awakening is not an exotic experience. In fact it's not an experience at all. It is simply the recognition

of the nature of our essential self, not a self that we might become if we practise hard enough, or study long enough, or meditate sufficiently well. The the self that that everybody, not not just those relatively few of us that are interested in these matters, but the that the self that all seven billion of us are now, but simply haven't recognised because we as I said earlier, because we don't see our self clearly. That was really a turning point for me.

seeking some extraordinary, marvellous experience and I realised that what was being referred to as just m my essential being, underneath the layers of experience. What what is this essential being that I am, before what I am? has been qualified in any way by experience. And that was that was a a turning point. It was such a relief. I suddenly realized that what I was looking for was not at an infinite distance from myself.

It was closer than close. It it I I was already that. I was looking too far away. It's like the eyes. the physical eyes trying to s see themselves and travelling all the way round the world looking f f for themselves. They can't see themselves not because they're so far, but because they're they're so close. In fact

They're closer than close. Yeah. But that was a r a real turning point. Th this This understanding that What is traditionally referred to as uh enlightenment, awakening, salvation is not something extraordinary, exotic, out of reach, only attainable if if you become a Buddhist or a this or you subscribe to a particular a certain lifestyle.

Or lead a certain lifetime. It's just the the ordinary, intimate, familiar self that everybody already is before it is qualified by experience. So how would you

describe or articulate potential and is it something that actually this enlightenment, this awakening, are there

moments for all of us, maybe daily, weekly, monthly, or whatever it be, where we're actually in touch with that. I know I'm talking perhaps from a sporting background, you get that the in the zone moment that I'd have spent time in where you you kind of feel like you just transcend the boundaries of time.'Cause when we talk about human potential, quite quickly the mind goes to that, what can we do?

Yeah, what can we build? How high can you jump? And all these kind of things. But how would you frame potential and are there are there moments for all of us where we may actually be in touch with this, even though we probably don't recognise it. Yes. L let's go back to the image of our naked body with layers of clothes. So w what what uh is sometimes referred to as the the ego or the separate self, the apparently separate self, would be our essential self, our essential being, the I am.

Clothed in thoughts, feelings, activities, relationships and so on. So m most of the time our our sense of ourself is conditioned by our thoughts, by our feelings, by our activities, by our relationships. And this gives us a limited feeling of of who we are. Now there there are times and and and I would suggest that being in the zone is one of these times, but there are many other times i in life not not related to sports where where

We are temporarily free of the limitations of our thoughts and feelings. In other words, we're just in touch with our essential self. We we although we would not formulate it too. to ourselves as such because we we're not thinking about ourselves at that time. But we are free of the the limitations of our thoughts, feelings, free of our history, free of our relationships. And at that moment, we are just pure unlimited beings. And it always comes with a sense of joy. Okay.

Have you ever been miserable in the zone? No, not for that. No. You long to be in every sports person longs to be in the zone because that's when they're relieved. of the limitations of their thoughts, feelings, expectations, hopes, disappointments. That's when they're just pure free being and that's when uh I would suggest in sports, but actually in any in any a activity, that's when we

perform at our very best. So of course there are still limitations that we have as a mind and a body. If I was in a moment when I was free of of th the ego, I was just this pure being, I wouldn't suddenly perform brilliantly as a r as a rugby player because m because my body hasn't been trained in that way. However, whatever my body mind was trained to do it would do it at its very best as a result of that. So my potential as a mind and a body would be enormously enhanced. Bye.

feeling myself to be free of the limitations of of the ego. So it's ver to answer your question, it it's very closely uh uh related to to potential. That's really interesting, especially about the training part. And when you mentioned about the joy, always being joyful in that zone, that definition of joy, all these definitions when the word comes up. They can be so...

tempting to head off into the idea of a what's joy? It's smiling, it's laughing, it's joking. But in fact when you're talking about being in the zone the joy you're talking about is is clarity, it's deep engagement, it's absolute involvement and engagement. And sometimes people as a rugby player, I tried to Find that.

by thinking almost reverse engineering, I'm always joyful in the zone, so I'm gonna kinda be joyful. So you go out onto the bitch, you start trying to smile and trying to laugh and of course it's completely yes irrelevant to that Exactly, because it it's the the the trying to be that that is initiated by the ego or the separate self. That prevents you you from being in in the zone. It it actually has the opposite effect.

But when you're naturally in in the zone, basically what is absent is the trying, the sense of becoming, the sense of limitation. it's the ego that is absent. There is just y your being and your performance. And I would suggest that it's it's because the nature of our being is joy. That's what the experience of joy or happiness is. J just the awareness of being.

And so when you're in the zone, you're relieved of all the limitations with which you've clothed your being and you're just pure being performing and it It it cannot help but be joyful, because the the very nature of our being is joy or peace or happiness.

So so when that when those boundaries are uh softened or dissolved of the self and and there's that almost more direct experience of the pure being involved. Where does intention lie in that because I'm putting myself back on the field f for the sake of an easier example. That sort of separate being, if you like, is is maybe

much more open and I feel like I'm fully involved but I still have a knowing of what I want to achieve. On whose behalf am I trying to achieve that? And how does it still rest if I'm dissolving that that clothing? I still know that I we need to score and I wanna pass the ball to someone and I and I I don't But I doubt you're thinking of any of that in the moment. You think about that beforehand, you think about it afterwards.

to someone what was going on. You would say I I was uh I was watching where my mate as a but were you doing that in the moment? And that's it. There's an allowing there's it's almost like like people call it the flowing. You you're in the flow, you're you're in the zone. What does that mean? It means you haven't separated yourself out.

from the whole as a separate entity. It's not me and everyone else. It's not me and my teammates and the opposition. It's just it's just one experience. And you you are part of the flow of that experience. You don't have a sense of, I am an individual, I'm trying to win, where am I all of that comes beforehand when you're training and afterwards when you're analyzing. And I'm not suggesting it's not appropriate to do that. You have to do all that. But then in the moment you have to do it.

I mean you you know this much better than I do, or certainly in sports. You you cannot perform at your best when you're thinking. Interrupts. It's interrupt. So so really that there is I I would suggest that in a way, there's no intention in the zone. You're so at one with the moment.

You're not anticipating what's coming. You're just totally at one with the moment. That's what enables you to perform In a way w when we see people in sports doing things that most of us think would think were superhuman.

When you see something you just think that that I didn't know that was possible. How is it that that person has performed at a level beyond what we think is possible? It's because it it is beyond thought. That there it They've been relieved of the limitations of thought, of the past, of what's possible, what we did on the training pitch, what we worked out on the book

They've been relieved of all that and that enables us that that's where inspiration comes from. It enables something inspired to happen that is not just an extension of our past, not just an extension of all the hundreds of hours on the on the train. We had to do all that, but then you had to forget it. If if we didn't forget it, then everything we did would just be an extension of the past. It would be good, but it wouldn't be inspired. It wouldn't be great.

You know, you you you well know your your your greatest moments were they were inspired moments. You you you thought afterwards how did I do that? Where did that come? I didn't train to do that. Well of course it was the you had to do the training, but then you had to do that. Forget it. Be liberated from it. That enables something new to come into the situation.

That's really interesting because to reference that example, it's quite interesting when you see someone in my position on the field would have been in the middle of play, and often sometimes that deep involvement of the game came with a lack of time. Often when the action heated up and it was quite chaotic, there almost seems to be a surrendering Yeah. And and you fall into that you almost fall into alignment with the energy of the situation and just become at one with it, as you mentioned.

But as soon as a referee might blow his whistle and put his hand up and say you've got a penalty and you're the kicker, you watch the difference in the body language as the kicker then goes into a space of what about me? Exactly. Exactly. Save myself, s survive as my reputation when all of that has disappeared, keep my past alive almost.

Yeah. Exactly. The moment the whistle goes, you know you've got a penalty to take. That's when the the I right the ego rises again. If suddenly you feel the weight of the country's expectations. You you project forward. Wha what if I get this? Or one scenario, my my life will well the rest of my life will go miss. If I don't get it the rest of my life it's so so that that that and that is of course

Of course crippling. But the moment before the whistle went, there was no sense of a separate eye. You were just one with the totality of the situation, flowing with everyone, doing exactly the right thing at the right moment, but with no sense of I am a separate person doing it. No, exactly. When I work with players, especially in the dead ball situation of kicking a ball, the concept is exactly that liberation of everything. And in that space liberation whether you design drills that almost

hand themselves over to that being the whole purpose of doing it. The inspired performance or or just responses that you see in the in in their ability and it it almost shocks them. And yet you sort of use a funny example of sort of saying, you know, that took us two minutes. Imagine what you could do with a whole week. But of course it's the opposite. A a week later they come back. Empty shells of themselves.

speaking about pressure and expectation and and it brought to me the concept about or the idea what what are we doing? And this is a much bigger question when it's posed towards education and society and everything, but what are we doing with preparation for performance? Because you mentioned about you have to go through the training. and the the conditioning of the body, uh sports conditioning as it's called, fitness conditioning, but that training and that understanding, but

But it's so often aligned with the idea that that is stress and suffering and that stress and suffering will therefore result in joy as a natural outcome. And as for me what that did was when I got those brief moments of absolute joy, you attribute it not to the straightforward conditioning, you attribute it to the amount of suffering

again in that almost Christian message of sort and they that I used to say, Well brilliant, if I want more of those moments, I need to suffer more. So I would move away from the idea that it's for it was important for me to be the guy in the change room who left last Who beat himself up hardest for errors, who watched more and more video, who felt the most humiliated when things went wrong, the most shameful when you know, when mistakes were made.

uh and the least joyful when things went well. Yeah, the least celebratory, the one that didn't do celebrations or or kind of put his hand up and say, What a great game, I feel great about myself. It was almost this is the route towards More of that joy is about almost creating more habits of basically avoiding joy.

Yes, yes. I think you've put your finger on it, Johnny. What is the one thing that everybody loves and wants above all else? Υπότιτλοι AUTHORWAVE And in our culture we have been educated to to believe that happiness comes about as the result of the acquisition of some a particular circumstance uh particular situation, an an object, an activity, a relationship. We we think that happiness is the result of something that we do achieve, acquire, own, etcetera.

Rydyn ni'n siarad, rydym yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad yn siarad. We we we've lost the understanding in our culture that happiness is the nature of being. Happiness is is where we start from. Happiness is what we essentially are.

It's not something we can achieve in the future by by manipulating our thoughts, our feelings, our physical body, improving our performance. N n none of that leads to to happiness. Although we we've been educated to believe it is and and we push and push and push and push for this elusive goal of happiness which which which we is considered to be in in the far distance. No, happiness is the is the very nature of our being and

And in fact, let's take a situation in let's just say football. You you w while the game is building up there is a tension, expectation, you're going towards something. When the goal is is scored, there is an immediate release of tension. Yeah. You're you're no longer going towards something, you're where you want to be. Surprise, surprise, you feel joy. Of course the mind says

I feel joy because we scored the goal. No, no, the joy isn't caused by scoring the goal. It's the scoring the goal brings the state of expectation. It brings the thoughts and feelings to an end. And as a result of that, the joy which was already there, already present in you, the joy which is the very nature of your being at that moment, was able to shine. Previously it was clouded by the expectation. And the need. Yeah. Well if that was the case.

Once you've won a game, you'd be joyful for the rest of your life, are you? Two minutes later. No, you're not. Why? Because the mind rises again. It's the next game. This tension, the expectation builds up. builds up for a week towards that and then you score the g there's a release of tension and that joy you think, Oh, the there you are, the joy

It it must have been caused I felt it again when I scored a goal. No, that wasn't the cause of the joy. It was just that your the expectation, the tension, the sense of becoming ceased and as a result the joy that is the nature of being at that moment was able to shine clearly. Now imagine if this understanding were to be part and parcel of your training, if you understood that you're not going towards

joy. You come from that. Doesn't mean to say that we won't um continue to train. Or o all that is still important. But our our happiness is not invested in the future. It's not invested in what happens. It's not invested in in in in the outcome. Our Seeking for happiness in the future comes to an end by definition because we're feeling joy now. So the joy and the now always take place at the same time. the the possibility of it is is phenomenal because even even in the training, that concept of

becoming is part of every training drill. As in at the end of this we will be here. At the end of this wait session I will be here. Instead of the payback being instantaneously involved in the the moment itself, such as I sort of reference this with the right. gyda'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn

I will be uh like this at the once I've done this. It's the it's the involvement in it, such as dancing. Nobody really dances because they think, Oh, once I finish dancing, then I'll feel good. It's the dancing itself. And that's what I describe as almost on the field in that moment is You're not seeking anything, you're expressing Yes. Dancing's a very good example. If you're a a a dancer or or um a musician, uh you know, um a violinist or a pianist, you cannot perform tense. So

Those are good examples where where e any kind of tension, any kind of expectation, any kind of fear, all of these tension, expectation, fear, they all come from the separate sense of i, a sense of ego. A am I how am I doing? What do people think of me? What's going to be the re all as soon as that comes in

That that that fear, anxiety, tension, expectation, worrying about what other people think, it translates into tension in the body. And and exactly the same in in rugby, exactly the same in all sports and not just in sports, in in any field of life really.

Yeah, and physiologically it makes perfect sense in terms of the efficiency of the body and the and so many people will get this. But getting it and truly experiencing it are really interesting different things. And when you mentioned about that tension, that stress. The interesting thing I would have experienced in the dressing rooms I was involved in is that you have from an external perspective this understanding of people when they see these people that there's so much

fulfilment there and there's so much worth within the individual. The individual's so worthy because they're doing what they're doing. They're they must be so fulfilled. That you go into the change room just before the event.

I've not been in too many scenarios like that, but what you sense is an enormous fragility and lack. An enormous sense of I'm not enough. I mean it's rife. Almost to an extent that not that I'd ever stereotype or group, but It almost goes hand in hand with performers to a degree, in in certainly that there's this sense of I'm not enough.

Yet in the zone moment it's almost what is expressed is that sense of I'm all. There's nothing I lack, I am complete, which allows me to to explore what I'm really capable of and And it's that expression of my completeness. I think the sense of lack and unworthiness comes from allowing our sense of ourself to be conditioned by our by our past. By our expectations we have by um other people's expectations of us. As soon as all of those ideas are mixed into our sense of ourselves.

We we then feel I'm not good enough, I'm unworthy. That feeling is translated into the body as tension and we see so Performing at um our best. I I can well imagine that before a game a lot of people feel that. There's the expectation, Oh we're good enough. And after the game. You feel the same Yeah the thing. But during the game, as soon as the whistle starts. Yeah. This is why people perhaps I shouldn't use the word addiction because of the negative connotation. This is why people are

about sport because they know that although it's it's hell before the whistle goes and for most of the game you're relieved of this sense. Your sense of self is divested of uh your family history, your your your expectations, what the world thinks of you, how many people are watching on TV, what the outcomes gonna be, what impact on my life is going to be. You're just in the moment and that timeless moment, the moment that everybody longs for. Yeah. It's the moment that everybody loves.

i in a way, for me then hearing that, I I really get the sense that like you said, potential is liberated. It's it's sort of that sense of liberation that goes with it and and so many people speak about you know it's in the world all around but around our environment or my o old environment. expressions before a game in order to try and calm that tension would be some really, really powerful messages, but they don't touch because they're they're almost

reframed by the the conditioning. Things like just be yourself. They reinforce it. Reinforce it. Yeah, just let go. Be yourself. Live in the moment. Don't worry too much about what's gonna happen. But all of those things. They're they're so powerful, but they're also powerfully almost counterintuitive because they just you know, be yourself, you then try and you try and be yourself. It's not understood. It's that power because also in the change room

Coaches will look at someone, if someone's kind of in the corner just loose and reading the the programme before the game and kind of having a laugh with someone next to them, the most beautiful expression of ease and for me immense preparation. It's almost viewed as hey, you get your head in. You're miles away. You know, how dare you? Come on. You know, you you you're not ready. Whereas in fact actually what they're saying is ready is look at this.

person over here banging their head against the wall, saying to themselves, I can do this, I can do this almost Trying to reassure an obvious doubt. Yes. Whereas the doubt is missing in the person that's saying, This moment is beautiful, it's enough, I'm enough. Yes. And I'm almost practicing I'm preparing and performing right now what I'm aiming to perform in ten minutes time.

Oh, exactly. Yes, there's there's no there's no discrepancy between the mindset beforehand and the mindset d during. I I had a tennis coach once that I played with in America and he at the time was um coaching one of the top ten under fourteen girls in the i in the world. And he told me a story about her that every time she made a mistake, she smiled. Okay, alright. Yeah. It was brilliant. Yeah. That that's it, that's the story. All right.

Because w w what do we normally do w when we make a mistake, uh we lose a point in tennis, uh the someone th the opponents score a try or a goal to go and we we immediately the the separate self rises up. And we go we we go down on on ourselves. We blame ourselves or somebody immediately the we're we're out of the flow. We separate ourselves from the whole as an as an independent self.

and then we blame ourselves if the goal's been scored against us. If it's us that scored the goal we give ourselves, Credit. But either way, we we extract ourselves from the whole and become a part. What what does smiling when you make a mistake, what does smiling do? It erases that habit. In other words, it places you back in the now. It's it it counteracts the habit of of the the separate self or ego rising up and saying

I did it aren't I wonderful or I made a mistake aren't aren't I awful. What's interesting about it it wasn't a psychological exercise. It was a physical exercise. It because it was a smiling. It's difficult to be to be down on oneself and smile at the same time. It just erased the tendency of of of separating yourself out from the totality, either as a great success or or as a great Failure and therefore placed herself in exactly the right position to face the next ball without fear or tension.

It's immensely powerful and and you mentioned before a little bit about Which I'm really, really interested in. We're talking about liberating potential and how that references or or c coincides or corresponds with that feeling of being in the now. And that time issue we've been speaking a lot about past and what that means and yet direct experience, which I know is is a great basis of that that sort of self investigation and non dual understanding

That direct experience tells us only that there is just now and yet we seem to rely on so much me, especially in terms of this is what I've been through, according to my memory and my understandings of it, and it's made me who I am. almost that construct prevents me from living in the now. Yes. And and it and it conditions your response in the now to whatever situation you you may f face. Okay. For instance, whatever y you are now, whatever yourself is.

Yourself is obviously present now. So if you were to want to make this investigation into your who you essentially are, you wouldn't have to reach back into your past. You reach into your present experience because yourself is present now. So, if I were to say to you, without referring to the past, Tell me about yourself. Yes, I think. You've only had experience. What would you say? I am Would you say I am a rugby player? No, you have no experience of being a rugby player now.

But anything you talk about from a physical perspective would relate to the Would relate to the part. Even if I asked you that question in the middle of a game, if you could freeze the game And I say to you, Johnny, don't refer to your past. Your yourself is present now, therefore in order to access it or or know yourself, you don't need to reach into your past. So Don't refer to the part who are you now? You wouldn't say I'm a rugby player. No. You wouldn't even say I'm a person.

You close your eyes, there are a few physical sensations present, but you don't actually have an experience of being a person. You just have the awareness of being. Everything else that we add onto that experience limits ourselves. and has to have come from And comes from from knowledge. So if if we are able to have access in ourselves, just just to this pure sense of being, just the awareness of being, and for that to be our the place where we live.

And then of course we still we have a body and the mind, that it it still it it still functions, but it its function is to express the qualities that are innate in our being. In other words, our body and the mind is used in the service of of being rather than in in the service of a of a fearful, anxious.

apparently separate self for ego. So all the qualities of the body and the mind that we train all all all of that r remains, that can be trained, but but it's liberated from serving this illusory sense of a self. Yeah.

I mean th the the concepts of g therefore through knowledge and understandings and past experiences, yeah, whatever those understandings or that's just memory anyway, but all that gathering, we're talking about that as potentially being the clothing. As as you say, from a very early age, we're we're having experiences that we resist.

We don't understand them, we're not able to process them. So they get that they in a way they get laid down in in in the in the deepest layers of our mind and and this um storehouse of uncomfortable feelings that is laid down early on in life i is then also translated into tensions i i in the body. And this early trauma, it builds up in us, i i i i in the mind w and and

corresponding counterpart in the body. To use our analogy of clothing, it's like layer after layer after layer after layer of clothing. And so by the time that most of us get to to young adulthood, our sense of ourself is profoundly influenced by, dependent upon, all of these

traumas that that we've experienced through our life. So it takes some unraveling. You have to go back through the layers, all the way back. And not just the the one's surface thoughts and immediate feelings, but through the layers That have been accumulated in the m in the mind a and the tensions in the body to we go all the way back through that to our essential being, the I am. Yeah.

But the I am before it is qualified by the content of experience. If we make the get in the habit of going all the way back there and resting there, that that acts as a kind of it's like a kind of dissolving agent. The layers of the Are gradually dissolved and It's really, really interesting because

at times that you can apply some kind of logic to these things, you know, you sort of see a situation, you kind of oh I've I've oh that's because of this and you can work it out. But there are times, certainly for me in my life where things just come up out of nowhere. And then suddenly the mind is recruited by the feeling or the the feelings exacerbated by the mind's thought process and and suddenly you're down a space where you become almost a different person. Yes. And suddenly you're you're

y you're saying things, you're thinking, I would never say this and I'm seeing things a certain way. They say, I would this is ridiculous to how I how I know myself to be, and yet you become consumed by those Because something something in the current situation, which to somebody else might it might be so trivial that they may not even notice it, but for you It's a good thing.

triggers one of these deep seated layers. And it can be tiny. It can be just what your partner says to you in passing or or it can be the tiniest thing. But it it puts you back. For that moment you're a five year old boy. with your father ignoring you or or or what whatever the trigger ha has been on and if called to uh to an outsider it's completely irrational. Johnny, don't be silly. I just I I just uh I said what but for you it it's very real. You are re experiencing that drama.

Exactly. And so it's really interesting because like I said there's that for me I had a very interesting relationship with or when I say had I I'm a sort of it still have experiences of this relationship with a fear and my understanding at the time when I was young was almost to overcome it to protect myself against it, to to to s stave it off, to to conquer it, whatever it be, it was about perfectionism, achieving and

Uh those kind of things as much as they were probably more irrational from a young mind, and as they got more subtle through an older mind, but they're there in the way that you're thinking about

things coming up or the way that you're thinking about things gone by and there it's also part of I think everybody's experience that th there is a clothing there. What is that preparational or that opportunity and and how does it take place that that you can come to that direct experience of that I am or we can or we can s sort of remove these layers. Go back to the the example you you gave of fear as a child. What what? What was it or who was it?

yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw So it was a it was a s psychological entity. It was your sense of yourself. You felt that y y you were afraid. You felt I am afraid. But w w was your being?

Just the fact of being. Wha wha was it in danger at at that moment? No no. So it was something. It w wasn't your essential being and it wasn't your body that was afraid. Somewhere in between the two There is this illusory, ultimately illusory sense of self that is afraid, anxious, a and that it's quite possible to lead a a whole life. whose purpose is to defend And enhance that illusory sense of self. In fact, many people do spend their whole lives defending and enhancing their sense of self.

Without ever investigating the self clearly enough to realise that th there is something called a self, if we can call it th that there is being th there is the experience of being. if we can call that that that that a self or or the self. But the s self that is afraid we're not talking about physical fear here. The th the the the self who is um anxious, psychologically afraid. That self when we look for it, is is is not there.

And imagine a if at those times in your childhood that you had felt afraid and anxious, that you had the tools to go to realise that fear and anxiety, they're feelings. But what happens if I go back further, take a step back from my feelings, to to the to the being, to the sense of I am that is behind

When we say I am afraid, I am anxious, I am excited, I am in love, the I am is always the same. We're not always afraid, we're not always anxious, we're not always in love, we're not always excited, but we always are, I always am.

So the the the the fear is temporary, but the I am is essential. Imagine in those moments of fear as a child if we had the tools to have not got immersed in the fear and and then to have built a life around accommodating in it and and coping with it, but had had been able to go through, take a step back from the fear to the being behind it and to realise that being He's not is not threatened.

Just going back to one's pain. That is the cure for the fear. You don't have to spend the rest of your life uh doing whatever one would normally do to to to to accommodate the fear. All you need to do is go back one step further back to your being w which is already inherently free of fear. That is the cure.

But the the interesting thing is rather than take a step back the almost conventional and and accepted form is to take a step forward into it, to re to try and reassure the fear and feed it with reassurance and what To Yes, exactly. To to do something that will either get rid of it or to prevent us having to fully feel it. So let's say we have the feeling I am afraid. Uh we go to the we go to the fridge, to the bottle, to the video

Whatever our particular object or substance is. And sure enough, when you Eat the food, have the drink, but we are distracted from our fear. At that moment we do feel relief from the fear. And as a result of that, we briefly taste the joy of being. But we wrongly attribute the joy of being to the to the sandwich, the the the beer and we think, Oh, if I have more of that, I do more of that.

I'll get more relief from my fear. And then when you have the next drink, you think, Oh yes, it does. I do feel in that moment you're relieved of the tension of the fear. Yeah. The the innate joy of your being briefly shines. We wrongly attribute it to the

to winning the match, to having the drink, whatever it is and hence the addiction. And we spend our life in pursuit of objects, substances, circumstances, trying to get rid of the fear without realizing that what we actually experienced in that moment when the when when the fear came to an end, it wasn't the winning the match, scoring the goal, having the dream. It was in that moment that that the tension of fear briefly came to an end. Which is a possibility available at all times through

And and the joy of being, which is a possibility available at all times to all people, in all circumstances, that joy of being just shone in that moment. And we felt we felt relief fr from from the fear just because our innate Joy of being came out of hiding in the background, so to speak. It ceased being clothed by the content of our thoughts and feelings, and it just shone briefly, and we experienced that as happiness.

By stepping back, by going towards passion joy, by going towards that sense of relaxation when everything is saying do the opposite. Is that where that meditative I I yes, I think th there are two approaches really. Th that was a physical approach. We we notice this correlation between joy, which is a feeling and relaxation in the the body. It's very difficult to be joyful and tense at the same time. It's very difficult to smile

and for there to be tension in your face. What is a smile? It is a relaxation of tension. What is laughter? It's a full bodied relaxation of tension. It's almost impossible to be tense and laugh. at the same time. I i in relation to the fourteen year old tennis player, it's almost um impossible to have negative thoughts about one sort. Oh, why have I failed again?

and to smile at the same time. So there's this very close correlation between uh physical body and and our e emotional state. So in this case It's an approach where we put the body in the the posture, in the position that it is naturally in When it is free of the tension of fear, anxiety, expectation and so on. mentioned earlier during the game, you drop your shoulders. It's very difficult to be tense with your shoulder. What happens when you tense the first thing you do. So

I if there's an emotional release of tension, your shoulders naturally drop. However, if as an exercise on the on the pitch you say to yourself, J breathe deeply, drop your shoulders, smile, that's a physical action, but it has an emotional counterpart. And you can do either. J just taking one deep breath, it's very difficult to be tense and to breathe deeply at the same time. And because of this very close correlation between the our emotional state and our physical body, it works both ways.

And so the exercise of meditation, is that more of a a total approach to to this kind of Yes, I I think so. The the the the smiling in between the points, the taking a deep breath, the relaxing your s shoulders, that's something you do for for for for five seconds in betwe uh uh wh while the ball's out of play in the middle of a game. But yes, as a general approach Yes. Although in a it'd be nice not to use the word meditation because

it suggests this something we do with the mind towards some kind of goal. Whereas in meditation in this context would would be simply uh uh letting go of all the the thoughts, memories, feelings, expectations, and and just coming back, sinking back. into just the sense of being, that the sense I am. So that just the sense of being bec becomes increasingly our sense of ourself. So that we when we think of ourself we don't think oh I am

so and so with this history, with this relationship, with these qualities, with these faults. No, just when we think of ourselves, when we feel ourselves, we just go to the experience of being. And that experience of being, if we go to that experience of being now If we had gone to that experience yesterday, two years ago, ten years ago, or when we were two year old kids, it's the same.

Yeah. It's the same. It does not change one jot whether we win the match or we lose the match. The the the the pure sense of being before the game is identical.

to the pure sense of being after the game, irrespective of what's taking place during the game or or what the score is. And and that the nature of that being is joy, peace. So so yes, the the the attitude that the i w would be to e yes to r to to regularly undress psychologically, to go back to our original to travel back in oneself through the layers of experience, discarding

the thoughts, the feelings, the everything that that that we've acquired. G going back just to this pure sense of being and making that to begin with it we feel we we visit our being. briefly from time to time. But the more we go there, the more we feel we we live there a as that. To make it one's one one's new default identity, to operate from that.

And then so that one's sense of being is not just something one visits from time to time in between all one's other activities, relationships, but it is the place where one one lives. One lives from that. And my experience is that The more we do this, the Fewer and fewer experiences. have the capacity to take us away from that. So when someone says something to you now w which uh reminds you of the way your father spoke to you when you were a five year old boy.

You don't go back to the five year old boy. You go back to your being. Is your being affected by by the words that that This kind No, they were just they were just innocuous words. That they didn't hurt you because there's no nothing rose up to meet them and say, I don't like this. No, your being is just open. Just heard the words no problem, the words don't hurt me.

So i it seems like a very small thing, just returning to one's essential being, the essential I am, and living from that, as that. But it has a profound effect on i it would have a profound effect in in in relation to sports, but but actually on relationships, on on every aspect of of one's life. I I I completely agree and within sports are an incredible mini nutshell version of everything'cause within there you've got some really intense relationships. Absolutely, you've got that.

You've got the performance, you've got the leadership angle, you've got the health and well being, which is another thing I might want to touch on a second, but it's Really interesting for me in terms of looking at how that the past becomes that sort of gathering if you if it's allowed to become a gathering.

what's happening now, understanding the the the opportunity in the way we respond to what's happening now to therefore not contribute to that. So I sort of Like you said about the smile, is that after a while if your smile reaction to a failure or an apparent failure, but the smile and the reaction means it's not a failure, then there's no gathering. For the for the future you. I know we're not talking about past. It it doesn't trigger the the weight of your past history.

So each one of those smiles and a commitment to saying com coming back to the being almost, is building that momentum of liberation almost that the the for me this the the sense of momentum gathered by each one of those triggers, the more you delve into trying to reassure it, like you said, going to the bottle or the fridge or whatever it is. And and to if if the if it's the constant recycling almost of that past or bit different formulations of it when it comes out.

Th the getting someone in touch with their potential is for them to be to liberate themselves from that cycle and to experience new and to and to touch that higher intelligence. from their past conditioning. Because if we're not free from our past conditioning, our future cannot be more than simply an extension of our past conditioning.

But to be free from your past conditioning, then there are no limits uh on the future. Of course, th th there is a a a physical limit, but the physical limit is so much less than the physical limit that is determined by our past. And that's when inspiration comes in sports, but actually in any field of life. Take a situation in in a in a changing room before a game instead and you and and you've lost three your your last three matches. And if you were then imagine if you were not

to refer back to the past. But if you could have some simple uh question, tell me what you know about yourself now without reference to the past. Would there be any fear or anxiety there? None at all. And and how difficult Is it is that to access? W w w would someone say, you know, oh sorry, I don't understand the qu or or would you have to think No, you can ask anybody. Just tell me about yourself now, but don't refer to the past.

You don't really mind what they are. Instead of going back to their past, where as you say all the fear and anxiety They they're going to their self. You don't really mind what what they say in answer to the question, but you do want them to go to their self, to have access to their self, which in that moment is completely free of conditioning and therefore free of

Fear and anxiety. You are just by asking them that simple question, you are placing them in the best possible position to play with freedom, innovation, creativity, uh It's it's amazing people talk about the stigma of talking about issues and those sort of things, but even the idea about these kind of conversations we're having within that environment, there'd be a stigma to it. There's a even slight there's probably a stigma to meditation as an It it's for softies, weirdos.

No, people that that not so much bowing out, but people that you know don't have that drive or passion, you know, to go but in fact actually it brings me to the next thing about with that side of being yourself and how does that play with what you want to manifest physically in your world, your dreams and ambitions?

It's for example, there's a lot being spoken about in terms of, you know, the the kind of law of attraction perspective of life and how the universe works in terms of the vibrational frequency of the individual and the thoughts and the whatever it be. How do you see that in terms of goal setting and achieving? Because from the physical perspective, identified with this is me, mind and body from the past, this is me, my clothing, it's very much a I've got to do it.

I've gotta I've gotta make it happen. I've gotta compete against everyone else. I've gotta compare myself to everyone else. I've gotta be better, be more worthy. I've got to deserve it more and so on. How does it work for you in terms of what you want to achieve and how do how do you look to bring that about? I I think one thing that happens is that because one's sense of oneself is derived more from one's own.

being than from one's uh intellectual, physical abilities from one's past or uh a and so on. I notice I compare myself less and less with other people. My my sense of my

own identity. I don't see it in relation to other people because my sense of myself is not derived from comparison with other people, it's derived from from my being. I think something that is quite often misunderstood is that People often think that someone who is um interested in these matters no longer has any desires or ambitions or it it's not that.

It's just that one's desires and ambitions and plans and so on, they no longer rise on behalf of the fearful, anxious, insecure, depressed self. They come from s somewhere deeper in you. They're still filtered through your character. Okay. So it it For this reason, different people desire different things. That depends on on their their particular mind and body. But

one would no longer choose where one lived or the activities one engaged in or the work one did. Uh to compensate For this ultimately illusory sense of self, the sense of self that is built on fear and anxiety and therefore one's one's life i it it unfolds more in response to the to the qualities that are true of our essential being, not the the illusory

self. So so the the peace, the joy that is the the very nature of the being, our character as a person, including our our desires, our ambitions, our plans, are informed by those qualities more than being a compensation for the feeling of lack, anxiety, fear, and so on. Is that where when people speak about finding your higher purpose or when I say higher, I just mean your you keep finding your purpose. Ex exactly. Exactly. One's one's Higher purpose for want of a

A better phrase, the purpose of one's life is no longer to to accommodate the feeling of fear and anxiety or to numb it or avoid it or or or to enhance oneself. No, the purpose of one's life is is is for one's body and mind to express the the the qualities that are the essential nature of your being and because every the essential nature of of our being is the same in everyone. But the qualities of the mind and the body are different in everyone. So everyone is going to express this differently.

something I experienced, I mean, lifelong just happened to m manifest itself in in the in the sport side of things as well, naturally, because that's part of life and it was something that meant a lot to me.

I had a two or three well, three or four year injury period. And during that experience, probably what a lot of other players are talking about when it comes to the end of a career, where there was that that sense of lack really shone through because there wasn't the bottle and the fridge available for me which was playing, covering it up by being in front of crowds, by having a huge goal I could properly

sort of w my only way at that time was physical, so I had to be on the pitch kicking a ball to feel like I'm worthy. And then there was the Yeah, the the the the kind of meetings and the reviews and the games and everything, that was completely gone, not available and therefore the the the lack was just saying, you know, you you can't appease me. A lot of players are getting that

at the end of careers and a lot of people are getting that in retirement stages I imagine and at various times during lives and everything. And a lot of speaking about that sense of lack and not fitting in, not belonging, unable to contribute, but also Talking about no longer being able to find their passion, not having the same passion. A lot of them try and revisit that by going straight into coaching, attempting comeback.

Going and doing this, going to whatever they can to try and almost find something close enough to whatever it was. But when you're talking about that. that true nature shining through the mind, the body, almost is that a natural Is that is that passion finding itself, is that a movement towards passion? Or it because a lot of people are seeing passion as belonging in the thing. Rugby yeah, rugby or sport's my passion, and if I can't play sport then I'm gonna have to find another passion.

and almost kinda try out all these other things and you know, all these tr all these other clothes on, for example, that aren't gonna you know, they don't fit, doesn't fit, doesn't fit. But if you go back into yourself, is that part of coming back to passion as well?

I think the the crisis that a sports person faces at towards the end of their career is that the activity that they have invested their identity in. their sense of their self is coming to an end. And therefore w when all of that is taken away, there's a a sort of empty feeling. a feeling of not being valuable, not being worth it, and then to compensate for that feeling of emptiness.

Well a healthy a reasonably healthy way of doing that is to go into coaching, commentating in an unhealthy way and we with the the well known examples you you you you turn to to drink or but Uh w what are we doing in that case? We we are engaging some kind of activity or or substance to fill up or avoid the sense of emptiness that's left when w the activity that we previously invested our sense of self in has come or is coming to an end.

And that in it's a great opportunity. I mean it's an opportunity that y you are obviously taking. It's an opportunity not just to substitute one activity with for another activity, but but to to have the courage to to face the the void, the sense of lack, and instead of reaching for the proverbial bottle, whatever it is, to take the opportunity to to explore, investigate the sense of light. When I say I feel empty, I am like

Who is this self? It's obviously not my body. Is it my being? No, my my my being is the same now as it it as it has always been. It doesn't fluctuate. It's a that crossroads that you face at the end of your career, it's a great opportunity. But that would be a very pleasant the satisfaction, the joy, the peace that people really seek is not

through fulfilment through activities, relationships, substances and so on. It is it is their own being. That that would be the time to a very potent time to to begin this this exploration. Definitely. I think uh just the nature of it as well, it's it's I find the idea about the the quiet, peaceful, the sitting with, the allowing, the the meditation if if you like, for that expression.

It's a it's a r really such an interesting journey, whereas people like myself might be used to is a bit more of a tangible one.

numbers and figures. You know, you go into a a training session, you've got your weights, you push this and at the end of it you get that immediate release of the the hormones that make you feel like, Wow, I've done a load of work. I feel good about myself. And y you try and Almost transfer that into well, my meditation, I'm gonna sit there for however long and then this will happen, like you said, to your enlightenment idea, and then I'm gonna get a boof moment where I'm gonna go, Oh

It it is very true. I I I hear it often, I can't meditate. Okay. It's like saying I can't breathe. Yeah. I can't walk. Why? Because they have an idea. that that that when you when you meditate you enter into some kind of blissful, peaceful state in which there are no thoughts. No, what about if you simply change the definition a as you just implied a few minutes ago. You change the definition of meditation simply to this, that

Instead of avoiding an uncomfortable feeling, you face it. Is that something that Anybody cannot do. So I feel this void, this sense of lack. of the sense of this is this is unbearable, this sense of emptiness, this sense of lack I can't bear it. I want something or someone to distract me from it. And what about in that moment?

If we said no, I'm going to do the one thing that I've probably never done in my life. I felt this sense of lack from the age of three, two, three years old and I've always more or less successfully managed it or avoided it. I'm now going to do

the one thing I've never done, which is just s sit down, close my eyes, and turn towards it instead of turning away from it. That's it. That's meditation. That that that would be meditation. It's not something you can't do. It's not something it's nothing to do with achieving a a peaceful state or even changing one's state. On the contrary, i it it's it's ceasing trying to change one's state and simply facing something which one previously considered to be unbearable, but which

Actually, if we face it, we find it's not unbearable. It wasn't really the feeling itself that was unbearable. It was our rejection of it that was uncomfortable. If we withdraw that rejection of the uncomfortable feeling and simply face the discomfort of the feeling. It it loses much of its discomfort.

Is it a reasonable representation to suggest that a movement in that direction is a movement towards the truer self and a movement away and and those two If we use it in that respect, movement towards is a movement towards joy and a movement away is a movement into anxiety and stress.

You're right. Instead of turning away from the feeling, we turn towards it. We open ourselves to it. We just we don't do anything to it. We we just we just face it. We allow it. We welcome it. And that's the first step. towards taking one step back and asking ourselves the question Okay, what is it that is facing this feeling? What is it that is aware of this feeling? I am aware of this feeling. Who who am I? I'm just this feeling.

I'm just that which is aware of the experience. What I'm aware of, in this case the feeling of emptiness. I, that which is aware of them, am inherently free of all these afflictive emotions. In other words, my nature is is is peace. the the momentary glimpse of this can come at the the idea of actually, you know, when the game is won or the big moment happens. But it's so fleeting. it's so fleeting but two things one it's so fleeting because immediately that feeling that

the ideas, the feelings they they arise again. A a a aren't I great? And so all th th the separate self comes back again and and uh obscures th this this The never satisfied, never happy needs more. It it's fleeting. But not only that, we wrongly interpret its cause.

We think it was scoring the goal, winning the game, having the drink, finding the relationship, buying the house. This is what caused the joy that I briefly felt. And therefore If I try that much harder to win the next game, to get the next relationship, for the next drink, what and in this way th there's a a an an endless cycle of of seeking, acquisition, fleeting moment of joy or peace, and then the next round of seeking i is initiated and eventually this leads to addiction.

Wh whereas all all that is required is is to to understand that the this brief moment of joy that we felt was not caused by any of those objects, substances, activities, and so on. It was the cessation of the seeking, resisting impulse, and as a result the shining, so to speak, of the the quiet joy of being.

A lot of the talk around this is about coping, managing, dealing with these issues which in itself, the very nature of anyone talks about I've got quite a lot to manage at the moment, you sort of get immediately like, Oh, that must sound stressful Whereas the sense I'm getting about this is that you're moving into a space that It's not yeah, because it's boundless it's not really a space, but you're moving into possibility. You're you're absolutely right. Does the space of this room

When we came in here this morning, does the space of this I'm caricaturing the space of this room. Does the space of this room think oh Goodness, I've got a lot to cope with now. I've got an interview going on. I better be does the space think it's g i is it under pressure? Yeah. Is it is it stressed? Is it got a lot to go if we started arguing What would the space do? Would it get uptight about it? Would it it wouldn't mind at all.

We and I I refer to us now as the the the space of awareness, the pres the witnessing presence of awareness, that that which knows or is aware of our experience. It is never stressed by what it is aware of. And that's not something we have to develop. It's not something we need to spend thirty years of our life training not to be stressed. No. Our nature

is by definition unstressed and unstressable. All one needs to do is recognize one's essential nature and and make it one's starting point, make it the place where we to begin with, we visited. so to speak, from time to time. But but increasingly we make it the place where we where we live. So something it doesn't mean to say that that difficult situations don't arise. Of course difficult situations arise for all of us, but they arise, they don't

They don't immediately trigger these old this old series of of of of associations. No, we just go back to our To our being, we we we recognise I am that which is aware of this situation, and that which is aware of the situation is free of the situation. It it is knowing it, it is it is aware of it. And it is in inherently free of stress. It doesn't mean to say that I dissociate from the situation and don't have anything to do with it. No, I I I may be required to

to be involved, to interact, to make a decision, to perform some action. But we do so not from a position of stress, anxiety, fear we we do so from this place in ourselves. which is free of all of those emotions and therefore best able to make a decision or to perform an action that is in service of of Rydyn ni'n sicrhau. Rydyn ni'n sicrhau unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw. So powerful and

I mean i for example in sport for the the whole thing is based around how do you deal with pressure but you're the instead of beginning the first question of what is pressure? Who's under pressure? How does that'cause I know from my perspective, when I was eighteen and just joined a new club and you're full of the unknown, is a friend to you. And then suddenly because you're s you're open with it, you're unknown, the the unknown becomes your friend and then

five, six years down the line when you've won apparently won some things and people are talking about you and you've this now you've got so much known about you from your past and now all you talk about is pressure, expectation, fear of failure. And yet you look at the two situations. It is just player, pitch, ball, game. Yeah. Opportunity and the other is seeing it as failure.

Exactly. Because to to begin with y y your your sense of yourself was at least to a large extent it was it was derived from yourself, it wasn't derived from your expectations, your failures, your successes. Whereas

Five years later you have an image of yourself. You're no longer really in touch with yourself as you really are. You're aware of y an image of yourself which is largely gleaned from what other people say about you and and expect of you and criticize you. And so that Mae'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n.

What does that do for health and well being in in its terms around body and mind? Is there yeah, the obvious thing about being away from stress, being that space of inspiration? For you an example from your experience, what is your life? from a health and wellbeing perspective feel like compared to you know other moments where you might be able to to compare it? I think it has a very profound uh um effect on health and well being and of course the

the the well being of the body, the health of the body is very closely connected to our emotional well being. So if our sense of ourself is derived from ourselves. from from just the fact of being there's as we've said, there's less stress, there's less fear, there's less anxiety and therefore less need to compensate for those feelings a and avoid them. No need uh uh to compensate

through excess working, excess eating, excess drinking. We don't require continuous stimulation from substances. It doesn't mean to say I'm not suggesting that that that we we don't enjoy a a glass of wine or or that we never have a cup of coffee or and I'm not s suggesting or or that we may not work hard, but we don't do any of things as compensations for the increasing sense of dissatisfaction and void.

And is that where b where the word just the simple thing of people saying you need a balance to your life? But when you're compensating and there's need, how do you keep those plates spinning? I whereas versus when it's coming from a place of

Exactly, exactly. I if one's sense of self is is still invested in the content of one's experience, in one's past, in one's in one's thoughts and feelings, one's activities, one's relationships, other people's expectations, then even if we were to impose balance on our life through di uh a regime of diet, exercise and it's not going to it doesn't address the underlying cause, which is your felt sense of separation. As long as that is active.

However much yoga you do, however however pure your diet, however much you exercise, that's going to make some difference. But but sooner or later the underlying tension that comes from this deep belief and uh feeling of ourself as a temporary, finite, separate self is going to emerge. And uh sooner or later

the the cracks in i in in our regime w will begin to show. So I suggest a um the opposite approach where we go first to the underlying sense of being, which is inherently free of stress, anxiety, and and we make that our our starting point, and that we then develop a life That is an expression of that and that includes diet, exercise and but it's not uh our lifestyle is then n not a a a compensation for the sense of lag.

Yeah. It is simply a natural expression at the level of the body and the mind with something that we we are already in touch with i in ourself.

Yeah. One thing I'd like to sort of round up on is an interesting question and maybe it'll bring up a few things but One of the questions that hit me right in the middle of that injury period when I suddenly realised a lot of the injuries I was going through w puts me in a way of saying, You may never play again. So at twenty four that could be it. And suddenly I was looking back thinking, Blimey, have I made the most of this?

Yeah, I've won a load of things and this started the ball rolling in this sort of space of being like, But but that's n nowhere near enough. So if it's not there, w how do I ever get to say I've made the most of this career? And I thought, but that's gonna be a life question.

when I'm when my life finishes, whenever that is, I'll also be able to say, Well, how do you make the most of life? How do you make the most of anything? So many people are talking about smelling the rose and making the most of every moment but The question being, what is a life well lived and how would you paint that picture? I think a life well lived would be a life where no we've had the courage to face all these feelings of lack, fear, sorrow, anxiety.

and so on, instead of avoiding them, suppressing them, but that we'd had the courage to to to face them, to explore them, and to penetrate through them, to go through them. the find a sense of yourself that that lies prior to that and then to allow that understanding to then inform one's thoughts and feelings. and one's subsequent activities and relationships. So it would be a life where we

We cease avoiding, suppressing, compensating. We first have the courage to turn round and face the thing that we are fleeing from. To face it, uncomfortable as it is. It's not going to be peaceful, pretty, you're not going to sit there with a beaming smile on your face. It's it's uncomfortable. Having the courage. To stay there.

And and then slowly sink down deeper than that, to go through back through the layers of discomfort, the feeling, to to make touch with this essential sense of self or being, and then to allow that to begin to inform. Mae'r pethau a'r pethau a'r pethau a'r pethau a'r pethau a'r pethau a'r pethau a'r in the world. Whatever that would mean for each of us, same sense of being, but expressed differently in every single person's case.

I mean the way that it's a heard that expressed well not necessarily that, but I've I've had something expressed to me was the head and the relationship between head and heart in a sort of metaphorical term, I guess more, in that the the heart when I was younger and it was just exploration and expression and and just that powerful sense of vibrancy.

sort of almost clothing that or burying that with the head in terms of its ideas and what's right and wrong and suddenly I found myself in a position where everywhere I went I was almost again metaphorically stooped over'cause I wanted my head in there first, guarantees, everything's okay, everything's right, how I want it to be. Then it's like, okay, heart, you can come in, but the heart never does. Yes. Because the head still stays ahead.

And it's almost that ability for me in a playing sense was to bring the head back and let the heart lead, which f in terms of the relationship with the unknown is exactly that. As soon as that Possibility was there, I wanted to flee from it. the concept that actually that it's okay in there and that and that actually I'm gonna take a step a bit like in those cartoons where they start running and the step appears just before the foot hits.

Yes. But you run anyway, because there's a deeper knowing that the step is there. But ph physically, meant you know, I can't see it, I can't feel it, I can't smell it, I can't touch it, I can't taste it, but I'm going into that space because not because it at the sen there was danger there and it was a irrational move from a physical perspective, but we're talking like you from a psychological perspective, just to say

Let's go and back to that change room idea of those very, very few that I knew sat there and he sort of said to me, Are you ready for the game? I'm like, Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, let's just see how it goes. Trained, ready, excited. So let's go see. Versus me who was there going, But what if if this happens after ten minutes? You'll be there, won't you? And you'll do that and I'll be ready to do that. And if you do that again, and if this happens you'll

that head saying, Let me just make sure that step's there, okay, it's there, off you go and and that was the end of the flow but also th the end of the the health, the the stress and and everything that followed from it but I think in the way that you've expressed it that's exactly what I wish someone had done. been able to to get to me and and a f as a final question.

When is someone ready and when are they not? Because these messages are around everywhere because like I said, this is something I'm looking now thinking and I know we could argue that I am just I am here and therefore it's always been now that this has happened but What would it have taken for that twenty one year old me who was firing into that kind of I need this and I must get that next result? to start understanding a softening to this opportunity.

It does it only happen when it's right? When it's how does that come about? When when is someone ready? Can everyone be connected to at every moment? Or is there a time and a place? I think the answer is to to both those two possibilities you've just presented, the the answer is is is yes, both of them. E everybody is is Everybody's essential being

is already and always inherently peaceful without resistance, without the sense of lack. So in that sense, a at every moment everybody has this potential. To be completely at peace and at ease and full of joy every moment. Everyone has that potential. By virtue of fa fact that that they are, that they exist, that they are aware. At the same time Why it is that some people uh hear of this possibility once, age sixteen, and and think, Yes, that that's true. I know that's true, that's what I want.

What is it that somebody their heart gets broken for the first time, age twenty? And they realize that I invested my entire happiness in a relationship that ended in a phone call. I'm actually talking about myself. mm i in a phone call and and and then the recognition I had allowed my my happiness to be entirely dependent on the relationship which I projected into the future for the rest of my life and it came to an end.

In a phone call. For me at that moment it it precipitated this question that really really was the driving force of my interest in these matters. Our desire for peace and happiness when it is quite clear that if we invested in anything objective

uh an achievement, an activity, a relationship, a substance, a circumstance, it is going sooner or later to come to an end. And if my happiness was dependent on it, my happiness was going to come to an end as well. So w if I I don't want fleeting happiness I want lasting happiness. What what where can I find lasting happiness? Now why is it that I asked that question? Aged uh I was twenty one I think. Why is it that that happened to me and not my next door neighbour?

You know, Johnny, I can't answer that question. I I don't know. So in theory, yes, everybody has the potential at every moment to go directly to the piece of their true nature. What is it that makes some people explore that invitation and others uh postpone it or not explore it? I I can't explain that.

Well th I mean, I guess something that's really powerful for me. I'm sort of enjoying your being myself book at the moment. And one of those things is like you said, that understanding that true self, whatever that is, isn't going anywhere.

So as long as wherever we go, wherever I went with the games, wherever I continue to go, that opportunity will still be there at that moment. And that moment. And that moment. Yes. Yeah, it it's it's the fact that you n as much as you know, I I've felt At times alone, isolated and very, very lost, but the sheer power of that being is that it it's allowing you to feel that way because it is so allowing.

The space of this room doesn't say yes and no to that. It's It's just If at that moment when when you had the feeling I am lost. probably your attention went to the feeling of being lost and then you compensated for it in your own particular but if at that moment a friend had said to you Make the statement I am lost. Instead of going to the feeling of being lost, at the expense of the I am, emphasize the I am.

Yeah. That's always present. Yesterday you felt I am lonely. The day before you felt I am tired. The feeling of being lost, the feeling of being lonely, the feeling of being tired, that comes and go, but it's always the same I am. That would have taken you to yourself prior to and independent of the feeling of being lost. The feeling of lost would have dissipated. uh as a result of your coming back to your to your being, which is not lost and doesn't need anything objective to feel fulfilled.

your answer to life well lived, which is as uncomfortable as that coming back to that feeling may seem at the time, to not give your you know, whatever that experience is, that's where everything we're seeking lies. Yes. Ultimately. Even in sports you we we think what do you want? You want to win. If you knew that winning the game was Would make you miserable? And losing the game would make you happy.

Which would you go for? You'd go for the loss. It's not really winning the game. You win the game because winning the game brings the state of tension and expectation to an end. And as a result of that, you're innate joy briefly shines. That's the experience that everybody seeks. That's what everybody is doing. Th they're basically we're all seeking the being that we already are. I spent lockdown writing a book called You Are the Happiness You Seek. We We Are What We Seek.

To seek for it in something other than ourselves is a recipe for misery. Rupert, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. I have no idea what time it is or how long we've been speaking. Thank you, Johnny. It's been it's been a pleasure. We could have yeah quite easily gone on all afternoon.

Yeah, thank you. It's it's it's so so powerful and and so uh impactful what I think you're doing. You mentioned what I'm trying to do, but what you've been doing for so many years and yeah, like I said I I was I'd love to have been in connection with with your message earlier, but it happened for me at the right time.

Well, Johnny, you know, you had your own your own unique path and it's because of your own unique path that you you now want to do what you're doing now. You probably wouldn't want To do that. So I I think your your path i it's been perfect for you and it's beautiful and and that you've

That you've turned your experience into what you're now doing. And and what I'm doing is I'm speaking very generally, not particularly to sports people or I'm speaking to to to very wide w whereas you're tailoring this.

to to to to your field to sports people and that and that's a beautiful thing to do. And and like you say, I mean the you know, the the twenty year olds that will benefit so much from from hearing this. It it's feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be but they're very much there I think when people see sport

start to realise as we've said numerous times, you want to speak about sport and you say, Yeah, but this is actually the same for everyone. You kinda go, Ah, it's just people are very interested in sport and it's a great way of sports people realising that actually we can exist through sport outside of sport. And other people who are not in sport realising that actually they're all sportsmen as well if they wanna be. We're all playing life in in our Yeah. Not at all.