Episode 38: Mark Vernon (Second Conversation)

Hello Matt. Lovely to to to see you and be be talking with you again. It is, and I really hope that we can develop some of the themes and connections that we were making last time.

But I thought I'd kick off with a bit of William Blake just to kind of get us going. Um because Yeah, this conversation is gonna be around The common theme, which is often known as non-dualism, of course, and I was reading St. Blake recently and caught a phrase that he uses that seemed to capture it very well from the Christian tradition. When at the end of His poem wonderfully titled Jerusalem the Emanation of the Giant Albion.

He says that Jesus himself appeared to him and said, Awake, awake, O sleeper of the land of shadows, wake, expand. I am in you and you in me, mutual in love divine. I am not a god afar off. I am a brother and friend. Within your bosoms I reside, and you reside in me. Lo, we are one. And I love that sense of uh The awakening coming closer and closer to that final no, we are one. I i i i it couldn't get much clearer than that.

Yeah, I really think that that's true. And Part of the reason why I enjoyed our conversation last time and uh was hoping to pick up on things again is that. You know, these dialogues can help tease things out, well, for myself, um, but I hope for those listening, and bring not just experience, but What people like Blake and others were keen to bring as well, which is insight, intelligence, kind of wisdom, which I feel is really valuable, again to myself, but I hope to others right now.

thinking about this theme of low we are one. I guess that is a situation you recognize as well, because I know that it's a big part of what you offer with not only retreats and meditations, but the question and answer to conversations as well. Yes, i i i it's the though we are one, it is the the the essence

of the nondual understanding uh and that that is it is the essence of all the great religious and spiritual traditions. That that uh although um Life appears to us as a multiplicity and diversity of objects and selves behind that appearance and as an expression of it or as an appearance of it. that there is a single, infinite and indivisible whole or reality.

uh from which everyone and everything derives its apparently independent existence. That that that is really the entire spiritual tradition, religious tradition, i in a nutshell. And all all that requires is for us to to understand this, to feel this, and to lead a life to the best of our ability, i in a way that is consistent with and an expression of this understanding.

Yeah, I mean the poem is it's uh it's a long, long poem. It's one of his epics and it goes through all these twists and turns. which in a way in effect explore the separate self, um even the separate self to the point that it feels it's died and then um there's the awakening um which i guess is Mirrors what often brings people to seek out this understanding. They've been through all sorts of twists and turns, often on spiritual paths, actually.

Um, but then almost when they've had enough sometimes, it needn't be like this of course, but almost when they've had enough, there's a c this kind of awakening. Certainly Blake seems to have known that. Yes, for f for the vast majority of people, um the vast majority of people approach this uh the non dual understanding i in in one tradition or another. in in an attempt to be to be free of suffering.

I uh having been kind speaking publicly about these matters for twelve or or so years, I I would say that uh that the two reasons why why people may approach this understanding is is is one through one through suffering and one through intelligence. But by by intelligence I mean asking a question such as, uh, what is the nature of reality? So a few come through that route, a philosophical route.

Ninety five percent come because they're suffering. They've uh th th they've they've tried uh uh through um objects, substances, activities, relationships and so on. to to to get rid of their suffering. They they they fail. They don't have anywhere else to turn. A and and at some point, uh the religious or spiritual uh possibility uh becomes available to them. Simply like the prodigal son, he had got to the end of his tether. There was nothing else in the world, nowhere else for him to go.

And and as a result of that there was this there was this turning around, this conversion in him. Well, most of us uh don't need to go quite that far, although some do have to go to the brink of despair. before they turn around. But the vast majority of us um begin to approach this understanding because our suffering is unbearable and we cannot find relief for it anywhere else.

So I want to pick up on this theme of suffering. Um and I always feel it's worth being a little cautious about it because you know suffering really is suffering and people really do struggle and on occasion do come to the brink of despair as well. But there's such Good sort of good news again to use a rather Christian expression buried within it that I wanted to tease out in the first part of our conversation now.

Might be called in a way the inversion of suffering. Because what I've noticed, both reading text, Actually, not just in the Christian tradition, but in the Sufi tradition as well. And then, of course, reflecting on one's own experience is that. There's a kind of turnaround which you begin to sense and then can become the norm in suffering, where well Blake calls it um when the furnaces of affliction turn into fountains of living water.

And it's the experience I think that you see in in certainly in the Sufi traditions, um saying great texts like um Atars, The Conference of the Birds. Um, you know, it's full of stories of actual sort of seeming Sufia death. But come on stuff. Almost it seems when they've arrived, and yet that moment becomes absolutely crucial for completing their sense because the suffering becomes the opportunity to know of the separation, but know it knowing also that it's overcome. There's some kind of

perception where the two things come together. And I've heard you recently say actually of um a Christian leading uh advocate of meditation in the Christian tradition, Brother Lawrence, that sometimes he would almost pray for suffering because then he knew of the depths of his unity with the divine. Now one has to say this very carefully because it's not masochistic.

Um it is though born out of y gweld y gweld y mae'r uned yn ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'r uned. Yes. How does that make sense to you? It it makes a lot of sense, Mark. Um From the point of the from the point of view of the separate self. But from the point of view of the the true and only self

the presence of awareness, or in religious language, God's presence. S suffering ca can be seen as the can be seen as the as the pull Or the gravitational pull on the apparently separate self from its true nature. So although we we as apparently separate self see suffering as a negative thing, something to be got rid of, something to be overcome, it is in fact the it is in fact what pulls us. towards our true nature. In fact,

Of course, the separate self doesn't realize this because the separate self feels I am seeking happiness. I am trying to overcome my suffering. In fact, the separate self i uh ultimately speaking th there is no separate self that the the uh The actor John Smith, who plays the part of King Lear, King Lear feels that he is doing everything, that that King Lear is not doing anything. That there is no character called King Lear. It is not

John Smith, who is veiling himself with his own activity, and then attracts the apparent character of King Lear back to himself. So what King Lear feels as the search for happiness, or my search to overcome my suffering, is in fact John Smith attracting

the apparently separate self back to himself. So i I I would agree a our Sometimes I uh I phrase it in in um religious language, our longing for God. Is God's love for us. We feel I am longing for God. I, the separate self, am longing for God. I am trying to find happiness. No. That that there is no separate eye, it is it is God's love that is attracting us.

the apparently separate self back to itself. And for for this reason, as you say Brother Lawrence uh th there's there's one very beautiful passage in his his book where he remonstrates with God for allowing him to be happy, because in his happiness he he forgets God.

he he feels the pull of God's presence in his unhappiness and he says, God, I would rather be unhappy in hell with you than to be happy in heaven without you. Of course it doesn't quite make sense, but he's trying to He's trying to convey that that he feels the pull of God's presence in his suffering, and his suffering is as such sweet to him. And exactly the same.

Uh, the Shankarcharya had a had a had a a a student a disciple called uh Kunti who had one prayer in in her life, Lord, give me some adversity, because it is only in advertis adversity that I remember you. So there is this there is this deep intuition in us that that our in our suffering is is contain contained this kernel of light, that that this got God's presence pulling us back to itself, if we can frame it in religious language.

Yeah, I I see that in I mean a a quote from Rumi actually, which again um is very illuminating and I know you used the quote about flowing down and down into ever-widening rings of being. And it comes at the end of a poem, which actually is about suffering, about worry, about possessiveness and so on.

The turn almost that comes with that final couplet is the realization that, well, to switch to Christian language a bit, um, it's in The moment of weakness and letting go, surrender, maybe would be a more Islamic word. That the realization that there's a a greater good that can encompass all that seems bad, or a greater love that can encompass all that seems hateful. Blake talks about eternal life that can embrace even what he calls eternal death.

Um and I think by that he's just underlying the the moment of realization.

Yes, yes. I uh a absolutely Mark. It's a it's a letting go. It's a letting go of any any kind of um anything that limits us. that this why why Rumi says, uh flow down and down in ever widening rings of being. What w what he means by flowing down, i it's going deeper and deeper into our self, uh uh allowing ourselves to be divested of all the limiting characteristics and qualities that we inherit.

from the content of our experience. In in other words, we sort of undress, our being is unveiled as we sink deeper and deeper into ourselves, and as there is this letting go of the content of experience, of our limitations and and

our being grows wider. It loses its limitations and eventually stands revealed as as infinite being, or or in religious language, a as God's being, that the very The the the in in other words, that that ultimately God's presence is the God's being is the only being there is, and God's being is Shines in us as our essential self or or or being. And then that being is clothed in human experience and seems to become limited.

And suffering is for many people that the the means by which we um uh l let go of all everything we're attached to, everything it's a letting go and and hence a widening of our being.

Yeah, I I'm it's it's good to hear and um I partly wanted to sort of begin with this because I feel that um we live in a time where there's a lot of suffering and there always has been but it's talked about publicly a lot because of the pandemic and yet it often feels like this element isn't much aired and so I hope it

support and encouragement to people. And that almost moment by moment, I think it's possible to develop this habit where when you feel even a slight restlessness, let alone something that's much more

anxiety provoking, it's possible to take that step back and to realize the the the fullness of being within which everything is occurring. I mean, you meant you meant we've talked about Rumi, mentioned Rumi, and and of course, um, there's this famous relationship in his life where Shams leaves him.

in order to leave him in the divine being, I guess. And there's a parallel in in Dante's divine comedy, actually, where at the top of Mount Purgatory, when just when you think he's about to launch into paradise and everything is going to be plain sailing from here.

Beatrice appears and reproaches him for two cantos, which is quite a long time in Dante. And it it's so powerful that even the angels are kind of going, look, give him a bit of love. He's been on a long journey, but Beatrice is saying, no, there's more. Um, and so yeah, there's a kind of encouragement in that as well when it feels, you know, like uh it's going to go on.

Yes. And th th there's a there's a similar story, uh a true story from the end of Ramana Mahashi's life when he was uh dying and all all his uh students and disciples were very upset because he was passing away and and and and he he he looked at them and he he said, But why are you crying? Wha wh why are you upset for he I I'm paraphrasing him now, for for for fifty years.

I've been trying to tell you that who I really am is who you really are. I I'm not leaving you. There's nothing to be sad about. In in a way his his leaving, hi hi his death. for uh w for many people was the letting go of their of their last a and strongest attachment. and it was necessary in order to recognize that that which they had projected outside of themselves in the form of the teacher was in fact their very own being. And I think a similar process happened with with Rumi and and Shams.

So, you know, you mentioned death there. And again, I'm glad because that was another area that I wanted to talk about.

apart from anything else, it feels like we live in a culture that is having to face death in a way that it hasn't had to in recent years with the pandemic. And again feels Very under resource to do so in in this kind of way. And and perhaps I could just introduce this um theme head on with some Blake again because I think what one of the things that Blake um tries to communicate is that there are kind of different Um mentalities, different perceptions.

And in different perceptions, death looks very, very different. So the one that he called AllROW, death looks like a statistic. And it's not even really um felt much. It's just a kind of brute fact that's added up, um, with obvious parallels to much about the way death's taught now. Um it it warms. It becomes a bit more heartfelt in the state that he called generation, where though death then becomes something to avoid at all costs, it can only be understood as a kind of terrible loss. And so

People throw everything at it in order to avoid it. Then there's the third state, which he calls Beulah, where death is seen as deeply connected to love and as a tragedy, therefore, that's um that can tear the heart. But there's something else he wants us to understand, which is this state he calls Eden eternity, which is I think when the glimpse is gained that lo, we are one. And then death can become a pathway. And he captures this in phrases like, um, every kindness is a little death.

And I think what he's suggesting is not somehow we should well of course he's not saying this that we should all do just straightforwardly embrace death as if suicide somehow is the path.

He's really not saying that. But what he's saying is that I think death can be sort of folded into again every moment in order that it can become the way of life. To release more money. And then, you know, the death at the end of life, mortality, looks very, very different. Because it's seen as something that's been embraced throughout life. I mean another famous expression of this is T. S. Eliot's expression that the time of death is every moment.

Now I feel there's something really crucial in this that we might grasp now in our particular moment. But again, I'm, you know, wonder what sense that makes to you. Yes, it makes a lot of sense, Mark. Um I think what people really fear is not death of the physical body, i it it's death of their sense of their identity. That that that that's what is That's what we fear to let go of, our um our identity, our sense of ourselves.

in objects, uh history, family, activities, relationships, uh uh we we derive our sense of ourselves fr from from all kinds of experiences. But but none of these experiences actually are are actually essential to ourselves. our essential self, the essential self, pure being, um, is is prior to and independent of any experience. And I th that is the real death. This is what the Sufis mean when they speak of dying before we die, dying as the as the separate entity before the death of the body.

Uh and dying as a separate entity i implies this recognition. That what we essentially are is prior to and independent of the content of experience. But in order to recognise that we have to let go of everything that is that is um extraneous. to us. And th th this is the the real death and this is something that our culture has really um completely lost sight of because our our culture

to be identical to the body. W when when we think of ourself, we we think uh our ourself is essentially the body inside which is a mind. So death to to our identity is is the body and and and the death of the body means the death of ourself. This is the kind of standard view of death in our culture, but it's so far removed. from the understanding of ourself that we find in all the the wisdom traditions.

And Really then The cure for for for the fear of death is the recognition of our essential nature.

and so this is the system This is why in one way or another all the spiritual traditions suggest this this dying before we dying, this divesting of ourself of all the limitations uh that we that we um inherit from experience. The the the limitations that that are derived from our thoughts, feelings, activities, relationships, sensations and and and so on.

And this is really i this is the great secret, the great open secret that is contained in all the the the the spiritual traditions. Um Before Abraham was I am, this I am, this being that is prior to time, prior to experience, that exists, that is ever present in us as us. What seems to be a death from the point of view of the separate self is in fact, as Blake would say, it is eternal life, it is eternity.

But in order to recognize that that which is eternal in us, we have to die to that which is temporal in us. Or or we have to at least let let it go. It doesn't need to be destroyed, but we need to let it go. And I think that contemplating the nature of time, as you mentioned that, is another way of making this a practice.

That then transforms life in life. Um, and so reveals some of these perceptions. I'm thinking here of um So the difference between time experienced as clock time, chronos time, as it's sometimes put, and time experienced as kairos time. And which is the meaningfulness of the moment. Again, and Blake actually some where he says something like, um, clock time is full of folly, whereas wisdom knows the time of every moment.

And it's feeling I think the pregnancy, the possibility, the potential, say, of every moment to step into A new awareness, which is the true awareness, rather than just repeating the old habits, which in a way the tick-tick-ticking of the clock. seems to almost encourage us to do. And so and and you know again, you know. thinking about the direct path. Sometimes I think that actually quite a good way of trying to cultivate the direct sense is to

Try and experience every moment in this sense of it becoming a um uh a wellspring for something new. If you can sense into the meaning of the moment or just practice that little shift of virtue every every kindness. And then you're leaning into time revealing more and more of eternity rather than it just going on and feeling like it might be running out. It it's interesting, Mark. If you I if if we ask ourselves what Without reference to thought.

Is there any experience of time? It's difficult for us to imagine, but imagine now that that we didn't have the faculty of thought. Would we know anything of time? that there'd be no experience of time at all. I I I don't even mean to imply that there may not be memories. For instance, without thought an an image can come to us.

But that image would come to us i in the present and without the ability to conceptualize our experience, let's say an image of of of dinner yesterday, without the ability to conceptualize our experience and compare our current experience with dinner yesterday, we would have no

experience of an interval in time between our current experience and the memory of yesterday's dinner. So even memory is not uh the the i by memory in this Context, I mean an image that comes to us from the past without the interpretation of thought. So e even a an image from the past is not experiential evidence of time. The only experiential evidence there is for time is is thought.

So it's it's it's interesting to and and to then to ask ourselves, do we really experience the time that thought conceptualizes?

And we don't. obviously implying that it's not valid to conceptualise time. Of course it is. The concept of time is one thing. But the belief that time is as it is conceptualised is real is another thing. As a concept, time is necessary for the time. for everyday life. But actually there's no experiential evidence for it. And if we take somebody says but what about the floor? Oh good. fossil records of dinosaurs and and and everything.

Time is a is um um a conceptual framework that thought As uh um abstracted that thought has made up in order to accommodate fossil records and but it it it's um it's an interpretation of an experience. so it Yeah. And it it's The idea of and because Because we l we s we filter our experience through through thought. It's almost as if The mind was like a pair of glasses made out of thought and perception through which we perceive reality, but we forget that

that time and I would even include space are are part of the conceptual framework, the conceptual architecture of our own minds. We forget that, and we presume that time and space are inherent qualities of of of reality. But but it's interesting to notice that every time thought and perception come to an end, time and space come in. Every time thought and perception arise, time and space appears. There's obviously a close correlation between them. Could it be that thought and perception refract?

the eternal, infinite nature of reality, and simply make it appear as time and space. Thought and perception in other words, spread out eternity and make it appear as time. Spread out the dimensionless presence of awareness and make it appear as three dimensions of space. And this is in fact consistent with our experience. We we we all have an intuition of this because when it's always now. And it's always here. We've never experienced then.

We never experience over there. Even when we see something that's over there and we go to it, we experience it as here. So all experiences the here and now. The here and now is like a uh uh it's like the vertical intersection of the horizontal dimension of of of time. It's the hint. The here and now are the hint in our waking state of the nature of reality. The here and now are the place where reality and the time and space that seem to be real in the waking state intersect.

They they are hints. They're p portals, path uh doorways. That's why the now is is is so important in the spiritual traditions. It it's the portal through which we pass out of time into eternity. It's why the present moment is given so much uh s so much um importance in spiritual practice, because it is recognized as as a as a kind of portal. It's it's very fascinating because Um actually the way that time and space are mental constructs is taken as

a basis for modern philosophy. So it's in Emmanuel Kant, for example. And sometimes actually you mentioned that the Yeah. Yes. That's used because it brings things into focus. But of course, what the spiritual traditions can offer, I think, and again, this is in Blake, um, is that. um, thought and perception can be in the service of eternity, to sort of enjoy eternity or spring from eternity. And in fact at the end of that poem again, he talks about fourfold vision.

Which is when life is known to be rooted in the one, create space, create time as kind of part of the dance of eternity, if you like. Completely reversed. From the Yes. Uh um and just w wh while we're talking about Blake, uh the the the quote that you know very well, eternity is in love with the productions of time. He's here talking about um uh uh uh uh a a a recognition, a a realization where where time, the the the the the objects of time uh have lost their veiling power.

It it's what I sometimes refer to as the outward-facing path. And all all the faculties of thought and perception are still available, but but they they no longer veil their reality, but but but shine with it. So then thought, perception, all of these faculties are are still available, but uh as you suggest, they are used in the service of truth. They're no longer used in the service of ignorance.

They use as expressions of truth. Hence, eternity is in love with the productions of time. Everything that is produced in apparent time is an emanation of and a celebration of eternity. Mm. Feeling the difference is that this is space and time as spaces and times of freedom. You can sort of move across, move as it were, from the eternal to the moment in its different.

um senses rather than again time feeling like it traps us uh it with its regularity or space constrains us with its pinning us down. Um liberty um you might say is is woven into this um uh sense of the now, which again is why freedom is such as such an important part of the spiritual tradition. They really are offering the fullest kind of freedom.

Yeah. This is why I sometimes uh refer to Blake as one of the great great tantric masters of the Western tradition, because in the tantric tradition they have this great respect for manifestation. Whereas in the the inward facing paths, for instance, the Vedantic tradition, there is more of an emphasis of turning away from the content of experience. they they veil reality, they take us away from reality. And and and and that's valid. I if we if we uh see if we consider objects

a and and and selves to be d to exist independently in their own right. Then it's true that they they do uh that that that emphasizes separation. So it is valid to turn away from them in the initial stages. But the The tantric tradition then then turns back towards uh uh the content of experience, the the the objects, and uh no longer sees them as r as concealing reality, but but sees them shining with reality.

So uh that they have this there's this beautiful understanding that it's not It's not manifestation itself that is problematic. Manifestation is simply a manifestation of the one. There's nothing there's nothing there apart from the one. But it's it's it's our belief ha having overlooked the

the one, having forgotten about the one, then the the ten thousand things seem to exist in their own uh i everything seems to have its own independent existence. And this is a a um A paradigm of separation, fragmentation, which inevitably leads to unhappiness on the inside and and conflict on the outside.

So of course it's valid to turn away initially from the content of experience, but the but but In the tantric traditions, and and this is why I feel that Blake really belongs to that tradition, there is he he goes back to manifestation and and and you you you you well know the Uh the the quote about William Blake seeing the the the the rising m s sun as a as a as as a manifestation of the heavenly host, as a celebration of God's presence.

Yes. And I think, you know, this this so matters culturally as well at the moment. Um one way which I think makes sense is um the nature of eternal perception has slipped into the desire and the craving um the you know the real terrible need to try and make heaven a place on earth And I think that this is drives so much consumption, so much using up of the material world, rather than seeing that earth is a place that can shine with heaven. And so be have this kind of

Quality. I mean, I think one of the ways that Blake captures this to try and make the point as clear as I can is um with his character lost. And lock um is always kind of working hard to build Golganuza in one of Blake's wonderful neologisms. And can seem like a sort of tragic figure because Golganuza always crumbles, it always falls.

But actually what Los realizes, and he's praised for holding on to the divine vision, as Blake puts it, is realizing that the act of building is to make The world capable of heaven once more of shining with heaven, rather than trying to bring somehow heaven down to earth. Um and so that's one of the ways that I think Blake brings together that which um which breaks can actually become a breaking in of something more. You know, it's he he's trying to show how we can live um mortal lives.

Becoming more and more transparent to the immortal by our our actions, if you like. Cultivating certain qualities or attitudes, perceptions, rather than feeling we've got to sort of pin it down, hold on, accumulate. um, you know, build more and more. Um, something like that, I think, really matters. Again, it's another kind of inversion.

Yes. i think the one simple understanding that that has been lost in our culture and that is responsible for the kind of uh consumerism and the the attitude towards the the the earth that you mentioned is Just the s the simple understanding that we find in all the traditions, one way or an o or another, that That happiness.

The nature of our being, the only place it can be found is is in our being, and this understanding is just lost from our culture. We are Surrounded by influences of the world. that that uh persuade us one way or another that that in order that that happiness r requires the the Accumulation of the acquisition of some kind of object, substance, activity, relationship, and and so on. And what what's uh um What's ironic? And the reason I think this this is perpetuated.

Generation after generation is because when we do acquire the object, the substance, the relationship, on so on. There it we do experience happiness. But we wrongly interpret the cause of that happiness. What we don't realize is that the acquisition of the object. brings an end to our seeking. In other words, it brings an end to the mind. There is a temporary cessation of the activity of the mind, because prior to the acquisition of the object, the mind's activity was seeking.

So when you when we get the object, the seeking comes to an end, the mind comes briefly to an end, and our true nature of happiness, which was behind the mind all the time, briefly shines. And of course the mind, which has no access to its background. wrongly attributes the happiness experienced to the object activity, relationship and so on that is acquired. And so hence the the the next cycle of of uh seeking acquisition.

brief moment of happiness. We we just don't understand in our culture that the happiness we experienced was not ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud. Uh as a result of that, our innate happiness shone. And we just we just simply don't understand this in our culture. We we we believe that it is the object that causes the happiness.

And w what once we w once we believe that, then that this really determines the whole trajectory of our life. Yeah, I think and that's such a um a brilliant meant in several senses. perception and um incredibly valuable to to get a hold of. Yes. And and I I don't s sorry to interrupt, Mark, I I don't mean to imply in any way that it's not valid to to seek objects and relationships and experiences. Of o of course it is. I I'm just implying that that we shouldn't seek happiness in them.

which is our being. And then Seek to share that and express that and communicate that through activities, relationships and so on. So this is not um it's not a path of renunciation, it's not a it it's not a denial of desire. Um no, in a way desire is is um liberated. It's used in the service of happiness. I I that's uh really important, I think, what you said, because it also in my mind it it takes me to

Discussion, stroke disagreement and dialectic and so on. Because I think that again, another thing which a cantankerous culture like ours often seems to be that gets forgotten is that um There can be a discussion that includes disagreement, but that is in the service of revealing the the the deeper light that can shine through the disagreement. Dante gets this in a wonderful bit of the Divine Comedy actually where he gets to the heaven of the sun.

um, which is sort of the brightest light that mortal eyes can see, if you like, um, uh before before moving more squarely into paradesal site. Um, but he meets in the heaven of the sun figures on earth who disagree. And disagreed really profoundly, so much so they declared each other's heretics and stuff like that, which in the medieval world was a pretty serious business. But what they realize in the heaven of the sun is that their disagreement could reveal to them the light of the divine sun.

Um, and so becomes a kind of joyful spiral upwards, not uh an interlocking of horns, but it does, it does require that sense of desire which you're you're outlining there. Uh in the service of of a greater perception. Yes, yes, i i i exactly. And uh imagine Uh imagine politics, two two politicians from from from the opposite side of the political spectrum. Imagine if Both these politicians understood and felt that They shared their essential being.

that that they were essentially the same being, the same person ultimately. But of course their minds are very different. And and at the level of their minds they have two very different views about, for instance, how society should be organized and and and and run. So th th th there can still be these different views.

There could still be arguments about the best way to run social services and um the economy and and and and and the health service and everything. But it would the the conversation would be informed by that th this deep sense of their shared being. So th the The conversation, even the argument, would be in service of truth and and it it does require s some discussion how to run the economy or the or the health service. And not all minds are going to agree. It's it's something that is worthy of

of discussion. But their discussion would be in the service of truth. It wouldn't be in the service of two egos battling together d w with each other in order to aggrandise themselves or enhance themselves or defend themselves or So yes, that that there can be disagreement, there can be argument if necessary. But it's informed by this this deeper understanding and and and and therefore i uh as you say, even the argument is in service of truth. And I think that

You you feel that somehow. There's something about the quality of a conversation where you you feel that your when your heart is growing rather than maybe feeling. Yes, yes. Embittered and so on. That there can be a guide in that, can't it? Yes. Yes.

Leads on to another area which I wanted to bring in. Again, if we're sort of almost, I don't know, hope-building a number of facets on this, um, which is actually a part that's big in Blake and in Dante, and also I think in the Sufi tradition too again, which is actually the role of the erotic. Um you mentioned desire there. And I think that again, there's another way in which it's often misunderstood. The erotic is the desire to have and to hold, to possess, to secure, um, to

You know, you use for your pleasure if you like. But there is a divine erotic, which is much more. Well Blake's rather wonderful word is commingling, but you get it in Dante where laughter and smiles and playfulness is such a feature of the paradise. Um, you know, there can be joshing. Um, and and Dante actually learns of people that made mistakes in love, in life. He meets particularly the wonderful figure of Kunitza.

who she was known to have had four husbands and many lovers and things. And he's a bit surprised to meet her in paradise. But what he sees that she had was that through her mistakes, there was the genuine desire to love life.

if you like. And so that playfulness and that laughter now shines through their encounter in heaven. But yeah, another sort of facet of this that can help us if there's a kind of open expansive um playfulness um that can even take risks because it knows that um everyone will fall onto to life itself if you like or be held never lose touch with life itself

Mae'n rhaid i'n bwysig. Mae'n rhaid i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. this path um useful to our culture um and and and appealing, attractive, you know, itself desirable, um not some kind of puritanical constraint, but quite the opposite actually.

Yes, I think the whole I I this whole idea of um the puritanical restraint and and and the guilt that that surrounds um erotic desire and and sexuality, it it comes from a divorcing of God. from the body, thinking that the that the body is that God is some abstract spirit and the body is is some uh a kind of fallen condition made out of something other than God's presence called matter and that it really needs to be denied if one is going to go towards God's presence.

And uh actually I think that In erotic desire, ultimately, is our desire to merge. It's really a desire to lose our separate identity. I it's so although um traditionally sexual desire is is is seem i is is considered a sin, something opposed to contrary to our our love of God or our love of truth. On the contrary, I I I feel that it's a it it's a way that Uh

It's a way that almost everybody it's an impulse that almost everybody has to to merge with the other and in doing so to lose their sense of being a separate entity. Because that's what happens when you merge. um not just emotionally but physically with another, you lose your sense of boundaries. That's what sexual intimacy is, uh uh uh um a dissolving into one another, which is that the the dissolution or the loss of of of separation.

And I I think that this this impulse, that this impulse to to be divested of one's sense of separation is the deep impulse behind uh uh uh behind sexual design. th th the the ego, the sense of separation, does not also appropriate

sexual desire and use it to control, to manipulate, for power, and etc. Of course, this is also true. I'm talking about the The deepest uh the the the the the deepest origin uh of of sexual desire, which I I would suggest is is is a desire for union, it which is a desire to be to be divested of our limitations and to stand revealed as eternal being. And and again i i it's why in the In the tantric traditions and of course for for William Blake. Uh sexuality was was not considered

sinful. It was not considered h his um his illustration of Albion Rose, I'm sure you know that illustration, did this y young man and and and Spread wide open, stark naked, wi with a a a halo, with light. Emanating from his entire body, not not just from his head as the traditional Christian halo is is a uh a head where where the g uh the sphere of light surrounds the head. This is light emanating from the entire body this ex and and and the body is wide open and naked.

So it's a a beautiful th this um etching is a beautiful expression of of of the the body as a as a representation of the divine. Where the divine can be experienced. So sorry, Mark, I I Yeah, no, no. I just uh y you know, emanation is again such a good Blakean word and it's when The body radiates with the divine light, uh, emanates the divine light and is seen in that way, um, rather than an object for some kind of personal satisfaction.

Yeah. Do you think um d do you think this distinction Oh sorry. Sorry. No, no, go go go on. Go on. Well, do you think this distinction is useful as well? Because I I confess that um the psychotherapist in me um is a little nervous of words like merger. 'Cause I think it can be misunderstood. It can be um

a sense of sort of bypassing or returning, regressing. I mean, this was the famous criticism that Freud had of religion, that he thought that ultimately it was a desire to return to the merger of the womb. And so he saw it as infantile and regressive.

So it's and I'm su I'm sure you don't think that at all. Um, but um it can it can be in our kind of collective consciousness a bit like that whereas I think what this is about and well to to draw on another wonderful common Sufi expression which is um I think this is right it's something like wherever you turn there is the divine face. Yeah. Again, this sort of unity that's a kind of emanating diversity and that that is what sort of standing in love.

might be about rather than falling in love. That's another distinction that sometimes psychotherapists make, that there's this moment where you awaken to love and you have all the thrill of romance. And that's falling in love. And but it's not a very sustainable state of affairs. Um so they talk about moving to standing in love, which is seeing

a different kind of intimacy. It's realizing that two become one, not because of you know the regressive kind of merger, but that two become one because they they awaken to what's fully themselves in. Yes, i exactly. It it exactly. That that it's um It's a it it it's a recognition of our shared being. We're not we're not going back to a a a pre egoic state. We're evolving beyond.

the the the the state of separation and and recognizing that that what seems to be other than or separate from ourselves. is only separate in appearance. And that uh uh um that behind that appearance is is uh the the being that stands behind that appearance is the same being. For everyone and everything. And that that's that's how I would that's how I define love as the recognition of our shared being.

And w w with with uh people and animals we tend to call it love. But the same experience with nature and objects we refer to as beauty. B uh uh so in both cases, the experiences of love in relation to animals and people and the relation experience of beauty in relation to objects and nature is is this

this uh collapse of the sense of separation and and and the shining of our shared being. I think this is what the Sufis mean. Wherever you look, there is the face of God. Although it it it wherever we look appears to be other. But that that apparent otherness is an expression of God's being, the being that we share, the only being that there is, and everyone and everything is an appearance of that. So we we s we literally we we as the Sufis say we we see God everywhere.

We see through appearances. It's not it's I d when I say I don't really mean through appearances as as if appearances uh as if reality were somehow behind appearances. But w when we look at each other's face on the screen now, we don't see through each other's face to the screen. We ask w we we see the the the face as the screen. So i it's it's not even that that reality is somehow buried behind appearance.

We only suggest that it is behind appearances in the early stages, w when appearances when we credit appearances with their own independent existence. If if we think that appearances are real in their own right, then to begin with Uh it suggested that reality is somehow behind them, but it's not behind them. It is shining as those very appearances.

And it is possible to just as it is possible for you and I to see each other's face and to see the screen at the same time, they're not two mutually exclusive experiences, so it's possible, as the Sufis say, to experience ten thousand things as the face of the one reality. It's actually what we experience all day every day, but it's what We expand all day every

Because i e exactly. How would it be possible to experience anything other than reality? How how would it be possible to have an unreal experience? There's no such thing as an unreal. Experience, even when we dream of a Caribbean beach, it's still a real experience. So yes, you're you're absolutely right. Reality is all that is ever experienced. It's all that could ever be experienced because there is only that which is real. So

It reminds me actually of Wittgenstein's remark that um when we meet we meet as souls, by which he means in a way the the Blakeian image of of Albion Rose, like that. That is Absolutely. If you didn't actually meet someone as a soul, um then it would be a very bleak world indeed, actually. Yeah, it's exactly the same as uh r Rumi uh tr true friends.

never really meet. They are in each other all along. It it's it's it's Rumi's version of of um Wittgenstein, yes. It's the same W when when we really meet. behind our apparent differences. We we we are one. We we share our being. I wondered too about the role of the imagination in this. Um Again, it's a kind of tricky word'cause it can mean different things, but it is a big part of both Bob Blake. Um, you know, he call talks of Jesus, the imagination, the imagination being

The place where the human and the divine are seen to be one. But it's big too in the Sufi tradition as I understand it. And I I feel it it's a helpful thing to talk about because. If we realise that our imagination is A faculty we have to cleanse the doors of perception, to step into this wider realization and see the divine faith.

Um testing it out, maybe. Um the the almost contemporary of Blake Coderidge made a very nice distinction, I think, when he said that there's a kind of fantasy when actually we're just playing with our own inner. Um imaginings. And we know that because they might amuse us, they might sort of fill a moment in the day, but they don't really take us anywhere. They they kind of fall as quickly as they rise. Whereas imagination proper for coder is

We realize that it's it's it helped us to step more and more into a perception of reality that's true. Um but cultivating and allowing yourself to play a bit with the imagination and I don't know, wonder what it might be like to look um around and see the face of God looking back at you. Yes. That kind of uh quality seems to be um encouraged. Yes. Yeah. Yes, in a way.

Uh d do you think you could say this, that that imagination was that the yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw The mind ventures out beyond the the limits of the waking state. into a um a realm of the mind that is um broader or deeper than the waking state. It ventures in or it ventures deeper into the mind into a territory that is

Still within the mind, but but but outside the narrow compass of the waking state. So in other words, that the The imagination is a is a faculty that we engage in the waking state that gives us access to the deeper regions of the mind and eventually that takes us all the way Through the the layers of the mind to to to to Our essential Yeah.

and can become conscious. Um and so become an another sort of slightly technical word that is used in Well s say a writer like uh Henri Corban, um, you know, the the great writer about Ibn Arabi, yes um who who talks about the imaginal, which I think he he means when The imagination is used to reveal More and more. of reality and bring it to conscious awareness so it becomes the norm as it were by which we

Yes. Exactly. So n now uh um you you you're you're uh framing it the other way round. I suggested the imagination was the faculty with which we Kind of go from the waking state into the r deeper regions of the mind. And y you're expressing it the other way, which is possibly more More accurate that it it's the faculty by which we bring the deeper regions, the deeper intuitions of the mind. from obscurity into the waking state and give them some kind of a form. The a a courier in a way.

the imagination is a kind of courier from the deeper regions of our mind into the waking state, bringing into the waking state deeper knowledge of reality that lies in our minds, but is normally inaccessible during the waking state. sort of messenger from from from the unseen world. Now that's that's a very tremendous comment because the other area which I wanted to another area I wanted to to to um tease out with you um is Well to cut to the chase is the role of angels.

Um because Angels feature a lot in Blake, a lot in Dante and a lot in Sufi text too. Yes. Of course the word angel means messenger. Um and it's it's the messenger sometimes of, you know, well, in um sometimes the angels in Plato um say Soxy's demon give him quite Um seemingly trivial advice like don't turn left. But I think more significantly, the angels.

can be thought of as the messenger from the imagination that that awakens us to vitalities or you know that that the reality is a living intelligence. It's part of this, you know. um mentality that reality is much more like where it um again is part of the switch which we need to make, I think, away from more material understandings. And so know something of uh reality as a dynamic Presence, but communication perhaps too. And hence various figures do talk about.

um the angels and they're linked to the imagination somehow. Well that you know angels inspire. A chap I'm very influenced by OM Barfield. He talked about how we might have an intuition that can flower into an imagination. But then we realise it's actually inspiring us all along. It was filling us all along. Yeah. So becomes a new imaginal. Yes. I think um a a a human mind It is just one of many possible types of mind that coalesce. or are precipitated in infinite consciousness.

Uh I think there are uh i i i if if we if we if we visualise the divine mind, infinite consciousness, uh going th through a series s stepping down progressively through various levels before it before it becomes a a human mind. I think we have to be open to the possibility that that that there are other other levels of mind. That are, so to speak, prior to a human mind, less condensed than a human mind, that are in a way.

That have not emerged so far from God's being as has a human mind. Remember Wordsworth Po. Uh um Trailing clouds of gor glory do we come from God. Which is our home and then he decided he then he describes um heaven lies about us in our infancy.

Uh shades of the prison house begin to close upon the growing boy, but he beholds the light and whence it flows, he sees it in his joy, and then he goes on the youth who daily farther from the east must travel, still is nature's priest, and then he describes how eventually that the adult has been. wandered even further fr from from from God's presence. So so if if we think of the the human mind as a series of of of of a kind of descent, uh condensation of there must be other regions of mind.

that are less contracted, less condensed, more transparent to the to the divine mind. The it's beautifully expressed in in um Milton Speak ye who best can tell, ye sons of light, angels, for ye adore him and with songs and choral symphonies. circle his throne rejoicing. Ye in heaven. He's describing this realm of of of angels who are

The still emanations from the mind of God, but are still close to God. They still circle his throne, rejoicing. They haven't descended as far. They haven't travelled as far from the divine mind as has a human mind. And I think we we have to be open to to to

To the possibility that there are other kinds of minds that do not appear as embodied minds like a human being. And if we were to if a human being is sorry, if a human being is um is a um If a human body is what a a human mind looks like from a second person perspective, then then uh uh uh the angelic mind, th th the attempts i in in in um

in in in in painting to to to to depict the angelic mind would be the kind of uh we we're familiar with the kind of conventional depiction of an angel, which is a simplistic um depiction of an angel based on our view of the human body. But but it's an attempt to to to what would this What would this angelic mind look like from a second

person perspective. It it would be full of light. And so of course if we if we as a human being trying to paint it, we painted it a as a physical body. It's obviously not a physical body, but it must have some kind of body. It must have some kind of form. And I think that that people like to William Blake, whose minds were so open and so porous

that they were very sensitive to these regions of the mind that were not so separate, not so clearly cut off from from the divine mind. And they personified them They personify this region of the mind a as angels. i i i in in in the east it's more um deities and gods. They depicted the same the subliminal regions of the mind.

uh a as a as deities and gods and and and and likewise the early Greeks and so so I think that that I think that th th the whole ide idea of angels, if we liberate it from the idea that they're a sort of Arab like beings in some other realm at an infinite distance. But I think if we see them as as um attempts to describe these deeper regions of the mind that are much closer, much less separate from the divine mind, then it makes good sense.

Yeah, no, completely. I mean, um It reminds me of Blake's poem, The Angel, and where he describes how the infant. has this open porous quality that can be lost because they, you know, become cross or angry or um I th and I think the point about that is that um The wider perception is not about like spatial perception at a distance. Um, it's this uh qualitative of virtuous perception um that unveils the reality that always was already present. Exam

Yeah, but but you know, so so it's a it's a it's the way that transcendence and immanence actually comes together. Yes. Um yeah. And and Blake Blake uh sorry, Dante has that as well when um in paradise um he has to become more and more capable of the light, which is about

allowing it to shine more and more fully within him, um, so that it doesn't kind of blast him. Um and I think the point about that is so that he can remain conscious. He can um uh be aware of what's going on and not just be as it were swept along by some peak experience um that might somehow leave him with a sense of it was tremendous, but he couldn't really say much more.

Um and then the hierarchies of angels, as you describe, open up. And of course, you know, hierarchy again can often mean for us taking something away, but The word originally in um the Christian tradition again meant actually precisely the opposite. It was that which was bringing very close. The divine energy and light. And so the different angels are seen as part of that wonderful transmission of the fullness of life. Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Yes. So th the the the angelic realms w were kind of intermediary realms between the the the finite human mind and and and and the divine mind that they So there was just a hint of something else which um came to my mind as you were talking there, which was um about Again, well, it it was the ib Ibn Arib Arabi's remark about how there's never any mistake. I don't think he says mistake. That sounds like a word I would use, but there's never any error in the imagination.

And um and then he talks about journeying um in life and how even when we feel that we might be journeying away from God, um, deliberately, even for many these days, having turned From the divine, actually, what is being discovered is the extent of divine life. You couldn't continue to exist unless you were in the divine life. You just sort of fall out of existence altogether, as it were. And and then one can turn back and journey towards the divine.

And that is too an expansive gesture because it's about realizing what one didn't understand and having that unveiled. And he even says that journeying within the divine still has. this expansive quality. Because then I think, and this is what perhaps links to what we were just saying there about um angels, is realizing that this unfolding even within God produces um myriad reflections of the divine life too.

So, you know, this this this perception is that um regardless if it feels if it feels like a way towards or even within, um, there's the potential to see all this as a constant unfolding and unveiling. Um again which feels so very distant from Dominant ways of talking about these things in culture, which are so often about discarding or rejecting, turning back.

Um which yeah, I I'd love to feel that we talk about these things, people um, and indeed ourselves, because one has to inhabit it and live it yourself, um might become more and more alert to Um and bring some kind of return realization, which figures like Blake and Dante and the Sufis knew so well. Yeah. Maybe just one more. Sort of final way which Perhaps this can

Talking about these things can help. It comes a bit from the remark about angels and the way that angels are often depicted as guides. Because I think that It's also quite striking about how myth plays such a big part in this and myth that serves to open up reality to us.

Um, I mean, perhaps the most common myth, um, certainly in spiritual circles that's talked about because the influence of Jung is the hero myth, um, where the hero the point about the hero is they have to go on a real journey and it has to be really testing in order to find the real treasure. And there's something about the test and They're becoming capable of receiving true treasure that that seems important.

Plato's Myth of the Cave is another one, which is well known. And again, when you read it, um, actually there's a there's a lot in it. It's not just about, as it were, seeing the light. Um, there's a whole series of steps about venturing. towards Well, first of all, fire, which is a reflection of light, but isn't the fullness of the sun's light. But it requires courage and

following what is an intuition but not fully understood. And so again, that that that's quite helpful to me because it feels like it has this. possibility of of trying to pick the threads. Well I say threads, of course Blake talks about giving us a golden thread, only winding it into a ball, and it leads into Heaven's Gate built in Jerusalem's wall. So Um yeah, I mean I l I like this idea that these myths can be really useful guides.

I mean, I just just one final thought and see what you make of this. But I mean, given your history, your previous life as a potter, maybe even craft can help people with this because. It awakens them and uh you know I I I hope this is true, someone who who who was very eminent in this field. Um but it awakens people to the soul within the materiality that they're working with.

Um, I I was I was lucky enough actually to to watch a potter throwing some pots just the other day, and there was something incredibly Um, well he said actually, he said, I I am the I said, how do you do that? And he said, Well, actually, do you know it's a kind of hug. I almost embrace the clay and then something Emerges between us that brings a particular kind of form. And I felt there was something very powerful about again this way of life.

No, but I you I you're absolutely right. It it it is it It is a very powerful way of life. I was a potter for thirty years or so and i it's y you you're you're working with with earth Fire, water, uh you're working in in a very in a v involved, visceral way with with all the elements. And in a way

Of course I didn't formulate it to myself at at at the time like this and it's best if it's not formulated. But I felt felt that my My work as a potter I was being drawn deeper and deeper into participation with with the earth and with processes with tools and and that I thought that that I was

F fr fr from the limited perspective of of of a of a person or a finite mind, you feel that you are working on the on the elements with tools and processes. Actually, it's not really like that. You're you're being drawn in. into a deeper and deeper participation with and this is the thing that I love And love about pottery because it involves all the elements.

in such a visceral way. It was it so it was i y you were being drawn into this participation with with with earth, fire, water, air. And and it requires you you have to um You have to give up something in yourself. If you're going to really participate and not simply act on your material, you have to become.

very involved and and you you you it was for me for me it was thirty years. It was not the work I did. It was it was my life. It was a way of life. It was a but in the end I I felt that I wasn't doing it So the pottery, the pottery was doing it to me. It was, it was the the the the whole process was in charge in a way. And I was just being

Invited to engage and participate more and more deeply as time went on. And it it feels You you you you stand back from time to time and you fe you you you feel you're engaged in a kind of sacred process. Any of your listeners who who are involved in making things in in any way, and and and that I'd I'd include writers, you know, poets, writers, and anyone that's involved in any musicians, any kind of creativity and

Therapists because you're you're you're involved in in exploring other people's minds and other people's experience. It it's you you you you're being you're you're drawn into participation with the other or or the object and this requires a kind of loss of yourself. It requires a giving of yourself to the object or the other. And in that sense it it's a it's a spiritual path. Yeah, I've done just enough music to have had the experience where you kind of get over yourself. Exactly.

uh and and then the music feels like maybe it's even it's it's speaking you or playing you somehow that yeah and and participation is such a good word for all that yeah I really like that

Yes, I'm sure as your work as a th therapist, Mark. I'm sure you're you're you're you're not conscious of it when you're when you're doing it because you're you're you're focused on the but when when you stand back. Something similar i is happening. You're you're you're You're getting over yourself, you're going b beyond yourself in order to participate really to be sensitive, to be open, to to uh to to what what the other is saying. You have to you have to go beyond your own limitations.

Maybe that's been a common thread. through the various areas we've we've covered, um this sense of of of of beyond more, um, the kind of intimacy, but also the transcendent experience of things as well. Yes, yes, exactly. Utterly intimate, but at the same time. Shedding our limitations. Which which in in enables this deeper and deeper participation in reality, yes. So maybe draw things to a close. And is there anything else you you'd like to add? I've been sort of

Gosh Mom, we've covered so so much. Um no, no, I I think uh um People can find more about you and your work, retreats online and face to face again into twenty twenty two.

Yes. It's all on uh lots of lots of talks on on my YouTube channel but but on my website rupertsparra dot com. Yes. Yes. And as you say, um just uh beginning to do live live uh meetings and retreats again, which is really lovely to be seeing people face to face again and Participating It's a it's it's a deeper layer of of participation, although it's also wonderful that we can talk talk in this way too.

Yeah, there's something very nice about meeting like this and the triangular sense of of others participating across space and time indeed. It's wonderful. It's it's completely real too, yeah. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. No, I feel you're just right across from me and on my desk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well look maybe I'll I'll end with um The quote from Blake that I began, um, I invoked Blake at the beginning and uh maybe he's being in some way or other sharing in the conversation too.

Um and then we can draw to a close. So this is again from Blake's poem Jerusalem, the emanation of the giant Albion, right at the end after so much discussion and um and suffering indeed. Blake or Albion hears Jesus say these words and says, Awake, awake, O sleeper of the land of shadows. Wake, expand. I am in you and you in me, mutual in love, divine. I'm not a god afar off, I am a brother and friend. Within your bosoms I reside, and you reside in me. Lo, we are one.

That is actually very nice to recite again. I feel we've touched on a lot of those beautiful themes and they feel that bit more expansive as a result. So thank you very much indeed. Well, thank thank you, M Mark. That's a marvelous as always very, very enjoyable to to explore what what that means in various aspects of our experience. So th thank you, Mark.