# 146 - Optimizing Performance with Professor Kevin Marks

And what I really love about having these conversations on my podcast is that every guest that I have on the show is very unique.

And in today's podcast I have Professor Kevin Marks on the show. He is a tenured professor in psychology and health science from Solano College in California. Now I've never met Kevin in person, but we've been connected online. through a virtual learning community called the Finding Mastery Tribe, which brings people together from around the world who are very interested in human psychology and the principles behind what it takes to bring out peak performance in sport.

and many other areas of life. Um, this conversation really digs deeply into the human mind and is very much based on Kevin's life work over the past twenty years in the field of psychology and health science. And you can hear in this episode that Kevin brings with him a deep sense of passion and love for better understanding the human mind and the basic building blocks necessary to help each person thrive and flourish in their own unique ways based on the individual or team sport that they play.

And in this episode we also dive into uh a discussion about mindfulness, goal setting. breath work and visualization and how these things can have a very positive impact on performance and staying on track with what matters most. So it's a really good discussion. Uh the beginning actually is a little bit we had some tech difficulties, so it's a little bit glitchy in the first couple minutes, but just stick with it.

because after that the sound quality is just fine. Uh there's a lot of good stuff in this conversation. I'm I'm super happy to have connected with Kevin and we talked about doing a part two at some point in the future, but For today's episode, those are the big themes that we dove into. So with that, let's jump right into this discussion with Professor Kevin Marks. Okay, Kevin, it's uh great to have you on the podcast and to give the listeners some context. You and I have never met face to face.

But we belong to a a group online which is called the Finding Mastery Tribe, which brings people together who are passionate about psychology and peak performance, principles of sports psychology.

social and emotional wellness, physical well being, all of these amazing themes. So you and I met taking a course online and have communicated over the the years, the past few years, but I really want to thank you for your time today and uh I'm really happy that we finally managed to to work out a time that we could record this podcast.

and then sports psychology. And then the third hub is working with athletes. And so I work with a variety of teams on campus here and I also work with individual athletes. And then if we were putting just a little bit of asterisk in there, I also work in a California state prison. At level three, we work with psychoeducation, so I teach psych one, even though we've gone away from that this semester, that is something that I do as well.

Uh, and she's there to just help them realize that and to give them the skills they need to integrate back into society because they all want to do well, you know. So she her her project is amazing, but before we get into the rest of the podcast, can you just talk about what the work um you know, working with um inside prisons and doing the work that you're doing, what that means to you and what it kind of brings you.

Really curious about human performance from A to Z, whether it's from Yale to gel. And I mean that in that. uh working with athletes and individuals that are really fine-tuned and that are that are driven and that have all their emotional needs met. And they have a particular background that has lent themselves to the development and the path that they're on. There's others that don't have that. And so I wanted to really see the full spectrum of human performance.

And just understanding a little bit in terms of the training that I went through to be able to do that, it's a different world. It really is. It's almost a microcosm of of our society. It's they're they're in their own little niche in a prison and they have a their own little uh really city in there and everybody's doing things to work together. I was interested in that. And so my curiosity drove me towards that just as the point zero zero one percent or the tip of the spear

individuals that that play sports, you know, that's not that serious, but still what's just something that's always appealed to me because it's such a challenge. Very similarly is the the prison life. And how is it that these individuals

inmates that quite interestingly, my first introduction when I got there, the coordinator greeted me outside the gate. Took me about twenty minutes to get in there. That's that's pretty wild, the whole story on on how we go about doing that. But greeted me and gave me a rundown and he says, Okay, so you're at level three. Thirty six students, every one of which have either one committed a murder or two have been involved in a murder.

And they're curious, so they're gonna listen to you and you're gonna be just fine. When he told me that I take a big I took a big gulp and worked on a little breathing right there and I pretty much didn't hear what he said after that'cause I was like, ooh, th this is interesting, right? This is it's on right now. And so this is gonna be I knew right there this is gonna be

a really unique opportunity for me. And so I made my way up there and we haven't looked back. It's been, it's been a lot of fun. And it's been really, for me, almost like a research project in human performance. And the days that I went out there, this was last semester, the set semester before last semester, to give you some context. I'm in a classroom working with an athlete, a one-on-one mental skills session. We're in there for about 50 minutes. Tremendous person.

Three point six GPA. She's on her way to a division one scholarship. Really good, really good athlete. We had an unbelievable conversation, did some work. And then I'm on Highway Eighty. Going to the California California State Prison 15 minutes down the road. So, in a matter in transition, 15 minutes, I'm in this environment.

And then I'm in another environment with some of the most hardened individuals in the state of California. And I couldn't have it any better than that because for me it was really kind of a working laboratory for me to sort out what is this thing that we call human potential and how is it that we develop on our path, on our trajectory. So It's been interesting for me, been a lot of fun.

that requires different skills, but the skills are obviously transferable. You know, it's just a different context for teaching and learning. Um so what Just talk about that transition and you're driving down the the freeway to do your work and w how is it that you're able to mentally shift gears to prepare for that next teaching and learning experience? So what is it that you say to yourself and what is it that you're looking forward to and and

And so if we're in one place and we go to another, are we really there? Are we really there? No, we know we're there physically, but our we where our feet are at. And so Uh, you're you're on it in that I really use that time on the freeway to take mental attendance and I know this is a buzzword, but we we dive deep and and this is something that I've really learned about and been about and tried to sharpen that edge.

which is mindfulness for quite some time, all the way back since nineteen ninety nine when I got introduced to it. mindfulness training, which was not on a mat. It was in more of a rugged kind of environment of football. And so I would use that time to take mental attendance and I would go through breathing. In fact I I have I have systems that I work from. And just to be brief here, for example, is I put on I put on my stopwatch.

And every five minutes as I'm in transition, I'm breathing diaphragmatically. So it's more of a behavioral technique. I'm not driving and, you know, open monitoring, you know, type of meditation, but I'm just really getting connected with what I'm doing, my breath, and then actually driving and really just trying to be as present as I can. And then as I get close, just like with I what I do with many different moments or moments of test.

that that I call them not necessarily sensationalized big moments, but with as I get a little closer to those, I get more connected to them. And so I go in and I have particular routines that I go with and I get really clear about my self talk. And I have you know, certain things I do, but I really try to discipline my mind on what I'm doing. And I know that sounds, you know, that might either sound esoteric or cliche. Either way, for me, I really try to

They call for us to be present. However, I do think that within that space, there's also this little second piece, that judgment. And that is a big part I always try to work on. So not only am I just trying to be present, but I'm really trying to see things.

for what they are and trying to get ahead of that moment so I'm not judging things as good or bad or hostile, you know, compared to is is it a threat or is it a challenge? So I'm really trying to get my mind in a space that allows me to be me. And at the core of that is is an educator. I need to be able to put my best foot forward and give them what I have. And so I do have routines that that allow me to do that. And and I'm constantly tweaking and working on things.

And and I definitely don't have it all figured out just yet and I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. And so I'm just trying to figure it out. And it's to me, those environments are fun for me. I really enjoy I enjoy challenges, whether it's a physical challenge or an emotional challenge mentally. Those are things that I'm really drawn to.

It's taking those ideas and then tweaking them and modifying them and creating your own version of them, like you say, and keeping an open and curious mind. As John Kabat Zinn says, a beginner's mindset to everything in the world.

It's just drawing on the mindfulness principles and then implying them in a way that works for you. So does that sound like something that that resonates with you?

on attribution theory and and how are you describing your successes and how are you being how are you able to figure out how things went well or or when they didn't go well. And so it is an individualized approach. And I've been fascinated with the mind and the body, studying psychology, whether it's clinical or whether it's a humanistic perspective, to studying biomechanics and exercise physiology, to me it fascinates me. They're both complex. The mind is extremely complex.

And there is no one size fits all. There really isn't. We know we hear that all the time. Unfortunately, many times we hear delivery modes, whether it's education or it's sport performance, any kind of performance domain. Sometimes, more times than not, they're prescriptive. It's one through four. It's steps six through whatever. And it doesn't work that way. It's the especially the mind. The mind space is ubiquitous.

It's a disaster at times in a very beautiful way. In a very beautiful way. And so it's really, you know, for us mindfulness's approach, it's it is a behavioral technique. It's also a skill.

We look at it with all those all those lenses, but it's really an approach. It's really an approach for us to be as present as we can, especially right now. I mean, we're in the fight of our life. We really are right now. And so it's something that is dear to me and and the athletes that that I work with and it's a ton of fun to get better at it.

So they will say that they, you know, social and emotional learning is at the forefront and center of everything that they do, but then suddenly they they let data get in the way. Math testing and literacy testing and all of this pressure on teachers.

With testing and teach to the test and all of this nonsense that we know doesn't work. Um, it just disengages. But the the real um the the best teachers in the best schools are the ones that yes, data is important, but social and emotional learning and providing uh students with the skills needed mentally, emotionally, socially to succeed in this ever-changing world is uh a priority.

I want to like rewind just a little bit to early days for you. You know, we jumped into like this great thread of conversation, but early days for you, just to set a little context, um, what was early life like for you? And um what was the focus or what key experiences kind of shaped who you were?

And so we had a lot of unstructured play. And again, how I'm explaining this now is I experienced it as a young child, but I didn't really know how to wrap language around really what was going on. And so how I'm explaining it now is how I have it now I've come to understand what was really going on. California. California. Modesto, California, in the valley. And so we were playing all the time physically. We were running, jumping, scratching, clawing. And I again my older brothers.

They were both different individuals and currently my my older my the oldest brother is nine years older and he was a phenomenal athlete, played all sports in high school, was a all region. Division two baseball player, you know, all everything at the junior college level, then went to the next level, division two, and did really, really well. And I was at that formative

in that formative space where I looked at him and I thought, you know, I like that too,'cause I already played so many different things and I was just I really loved sports and and what it provided and I was always watching him and then my middle brother, the same thing, it's a little bit different. He's more of the protective

brother and he was always watching out for me and he would we played together with friends and did all kinds of things. So my childhood was a ton of fun and there was a lot of there was pain involved emotionally. There was there was a ton of bliss and happiness. There was all kinds of things. wrapped around us always doing a bunch of stuff.

And playing with a lot of friends and as we got a little older it became more structured. We got to junior high and we got to high school. I loved it. Some people might not have, but for whatever reason I think The sports kept me really connected. I was trying to sort out who I was at that time. And and interestingly. From a young age I was with lived with my mother and my parents had a divorce from a young age and my mother and she's passed away and she is

sh to to to this day is the most driven person, uh ambitious person I've ever seen in my life. And so she we were we've been in some interesting situations to where she opened up her own business and she did it very, very well. And so I've been in situations where we we were financially secure and then some, we had a lot of great things going on, and then we lost it all.

And we got into high school. I was in high school at the time and and she lost it all, just had some bad luck and had a bad business partner that did some bad things and And we had we had a rough go. We didn't have a lot of resources at a time where I was trying to sort out who I was. And as we know on good developmental psychology, those are that's really important. You know, we're trying to do and use certain things as a vehicle or to jump on these things as a vehicle to figure out who we are.

And I feel now knowing what I went through is Sports was that vehicle that I jumped on and I could be me. And it provided a sense of stability for me to do what I wanted to do. And so playing all kinds of sports in high school and then in college really allowed me to express who I who I was at the time.

and currently uh built into who I am right now. But it was it was a lot of fun. We we played a lot. We we did all kinds of of things. But I think sport and play was something that was at the center of my childhood.

So what they did was they looked at it's called the Meaningful PE Framework and you and I have spoken behind the scenes about this in the in the past, but to give the listeners some context, um It's looking at the traditional models of physical education, um and the way it's delivered and looking at all these different models and then kind of extracting the five most common features. It ends up being the five most common features.

um which are uh motor competence challenge Personal relevance, social interaction. And joy and delight. So what you're describing, so the idea is that in order for young people to find meaning through movement and physical activity and sport, whatever it is. Um, those features are present. It has to be personally relevant. They're connected with others, that type of thing.

So when you describe your early days, all of those five features I'm listening and I'm like, Yeah, motor competence took care of itself because you guys were just throwing the football around and and you know, catching and doing all of these things where you're intrinsically motivated to just do the sport, therefore motor competence takes care of itself. Personal relevance

obviously so important, right? And a very much a part of what you experience. Social interaction, connecting with others. You said either is a big neighborhood of kids doing, you know, hanging out. that idea of challenge. Challenge is the big one. And challenge is, you know, finding that just right entry point to skill development. So for me growing up as a quarterback, you know, well, I taught myself how to throw, you know, it became like could can I throw over the back bushes? Yeah.

Um, but that's the challenge piece, right? So that's what I'm fascinated by. So what you're describing led to the path that you're on. Those five features led to the path that you're on and then you ended up playing college football.

I did as well. So we have that common connection. So talk about your experience, uh, where you played football and and the position and kind of what you learned from that experience.

uh college relative regarding the athletes and so I was able to get some really good academic scholarship money. And then I ended up transferring my senior year for a diff variety of reasons. It was really, really expensive. the academic scholarship would only take me so far'cause it wasn't a full scholarship. So I ended up transferring over to MSU, Minot State University, a Division Two School in Minot, North Dakota.

and played my senior year there and had a ton of fun. And I learned so much. In fact, this could be a whole nother podcast right here because I am so fortunate right now in my college days. whether it's athletics or academics, to have phenomenal mentors and leaders. Right out of the gate, my freshman year in college. A man by the name of Steve De Prado who is a legend in the valley. Most people, maybe our listeners don't have any clue who that is, but he is a legend out out here.

And I was introduced really to mindfulness training and it wasn't called that back then. It was it was do it one at a time. Use your breath to control yourself and focus one at a time. So my introduction to mindfulness was in nineteen ninety nine.

In the summer on the football field running two hundred and forty they're called two forties. So we would have to run down to the back of the end zone and back, full pads, hundred and five degree heat. Everybody knows the story, right? You know, all those things.

So we had to not we had to get down and back at a certain time. And we only had 30 seconds recovery. So it was brutal. And he says the individuals that are going to make it are they're going to stay present. They're going to do, they're going to execute it one at a time.

And this is gonna sound simple. It's not. You can develop it though. You can train it. I remember him talking about the individuals who will not finish it. They're gonna tap out. They're gonna get ahead of themselves mentally. They're gonna think to themselves.

How am I gonna do this? How in the world am I gonna do this 45 minutes of madness? And he was right. In fact, Twenty something years later when I'm competing in a triathlon, one of the toughest things I've ever done in my life, I worked very hard to train my mind to stay in things and not to get ahead of things or behind time. And it really helped me out. And so from the get go I was

I was presented with that. Can you imagine that as an 18-year-old kid? How cool is that? And then my first class is anthropology. 20 minutes later I go to a class called Peak Performance through mental training, which was taught by the head football coach. And he's an academic person too. I think he was at UC Davis and then Sac State and then got the job at the college that I was at. So we were surrounded with really good teachers and coaches.

And we learned about some of the research in the class and then we we applied it during our the playing days. And so I played the next year there. Went up to Washington and it was unbelievable. In fact, that was the point where I really solidified some of the language that I use to this day when it comes to how I operate, my my personal philosophy. And I was introduced to this thing called philosophy my freshman year by the same coach I was just talking about. He was really big on philosophy.

And then I got to Washington my junior year in college and I had another unbelievable coach, my defensive coordinator, Chris Casey, who's in Oregon right now. who really was able for me, I knew instinctively what I was all about, but that's another individual that helped me understand how to figure out how to articulate it and how to get it down on paper.

And and so that was a tremendous experience. And then I go to Mina State University and here we go again. I had some other tremendous competitors and mentors, the head coach Mike Sievertson. He was at North Dakota State University and some other colleges that were really big in the Midwest and learned so much from him. And so I I don't even know really how to pin down what I've learned because it's been so much. I am extremely fortunate enough to been around some tremendous coaches.

And I didn't even have a chance to mention some of the professors that I had. Tremendous history professors, philosophy professors, individuals that I remember. to this day some of the lectures and and so I have been blessed. I I talked to many people and I ask them, you know, who's who's your guy? You know, who's your mentor? Who's the professor that that got you?

that gets you. Who's your coach that you really you go to? And unfortunately there's some there's some that say, oh I have this and that and that. But many they might have one maybe. A lot of times it's in elementary school. That isn't that wasn't the case with me. I was flooded with tremendous individuals. So I'm to this day 100% fortunate.

is uh very difficult mentally because you're even though you're on one team, every year is a different season. Y you know, I was uh Backup quarterbacks. I started uh as a punter throughout university, but I really fought hard to be starting quarterback. So every season presented a a a new chance for me to kind of establish myself as the best quarterback on the team.

What you're talking about is shifting universities, you know, going into completely new communities, right? So you start at one university, you go to another university, you end up at another university. So That to me, to be able to thrive in those unknown environments. To me is related to just as I hear your story, your openness to learning and being receptive to these new experiences.

Because otherwise you'd be roasted from the start. You go to a new school and you're roasted and it's like fighting from the bottom again. So even though you might have had a lot of athletic ability that allowed you to establish yourself, there to me there's more going on there.

So talk about what it was like for you to bridge the gap between those different university experiences, moving into new communities and the skills that were present within yourself to really tackle that new challenge with uh oh those new challenges with openness and curiosity.

And there wasn't people around and I talked to my wife about this'cause my daughter, my awesome daughter, I wanna you know, you can't really give that to them. You can't give them that curiosity. You we can cultivate the environment for sure. I want her to wake up. Right now, I I love waking up. It's so much fun and I've always been like that, trying to figure new things out and

I and it's just something that I would love to give to my daughter and my wife and I have these discussions and there was not a lot of adults around when I was little. We played. It was unstructured play and then we competed too. As we got older, it was a natural progression to where the formality started to rear its head at the right time.

We started to have referees and people at the right time. But by the time we got there, we've already been through so many experiences on our own where we had to really sort out a lot of things and we had to figure things out. Sometimes through

you know, through verbal persuasion, sometimes sometimes through fights, you know, and so there's a lot of stuff going on and there wasn't a lot of parents around at the time in a good way. We were able to structure that and so I would say that for whatever reason I do remember In my college days, you and I we have talked about Albert Albert Bandura's work on self-efficacy. For whatever reason, I I did have, I remember back then, I had high self-efficacy. I I just had a thought.

And I had a thought that I will figure this out. I got this for whatever reason and moving all the way from from where I was at to Washington. I just had a thought that this is gonna be fun. This is gonna be an adventure and I will figure it out. And the same thing, and I just have this vivid memory. I was in the library at uh in Washington at Whitworth University and we're doing working on some papers.

And I knew, okay, I think I need to make a move here. And and I, for whatever, I don't, again, for whatever reason, I just had this thought that I will figure it out. I had that efficacy maybe built from making so many dang mistakes. uh as a as a child and and as a young adult that that was that was built up. And in the meantime I had people with really good intentions, close people.

And people that that were friends, so I had family members saying, first of all, you're gonna go to Washington, why don't we stay stay in California? Why why go here? Why do this? Maybe I had one person who I'm actually close with. say that might not be a good move, you know, and I I listened, I took it in, but I just for whatever reason I knew this was going to be a good fit. If not, I was going to make it a good fit.

And things that work out there, but I just had some kind of thought that I will figure it out. And I remember when I was transferring the Washington coach at the time, he takes me out to lunch. Never forget this. And he says, look. He takes me to this this Mexican restaurant and really really awesome approach. He's really he cares. He's trying to talk me into staying in Washington. Appreciate it so much. He pulls out this pitcher of ice water.

And he says, I want you to put your hand in this right now. And so, really? Okay. So I put my hand in the ice water. And he says, where you're going You're putting your whole body in that for hours. You're going to North Dakota and that is gonna be do you have you thought about it? Yeah. Have you thought about this? And then he circles back and says, Kevin, he says, look, I am most concerned with you and your academics. Statistically, I remember him saying this.

And I get the goosebumps right now to this day. Statistically, you will not graduate if you make this transition. And and I totally get where he's coming from, because he is right. You know, when people are bump bouncing around from one place to another, that is a problem. However, when he said that, again, I had this thought.

I got this no. I I know who I am. I knew that I was gonna graduate and I was gonna go on to do things that I wanted to do. And I did do that. So some years later, I came back. And I I when I got done, I graduated, I wrote him a letter. And he got the letter and then he circled back. I ended up going into coaching at the time. He comes down to Modesto to recruit some of our players and he brings a letter because he knew I was coaching there. We had a really good discussion about that situation.

And so what happened was it had nothing to do with me proving anybody wrong, myself included. I just I just knew. I knew that I could get things done. I was resourceful and I would work hard and I would I guess there is some openness to that. I was open to listening to people to learn as much as I could to make those transitions. So that's that's part of it.

But uh you yeah, and we talked about this earlier on. It's that is a macro transition. We have micro and macro transitions. We make many transition transitions throughout the day. That is a big transition. And I think that early childhood, some of those experiences did put me in a good position to work and sort out some of those things.

in a dysfunctional family environment, you know, with addiction and mental illness, and then finding football and and really always believing that I there was something. I couldn't identify it or late put a label on it.

But I knew that there was something within myself that was different than many of my family members. And although that was um magnified through sport, it was still regardless of sport, I I feel that there was something in there within me, you know, that allowed me to be open to these new experiences and And you know, when I graduated from university and I'm so thankful to have played football and had all of these wonderful experiences and I went back and coached my high school football team.

I never imagined in a million years that I would ever leave my hometown. because that's I established myself here, everything was here for me, my network was here, and then suddenly I found myself, my wife, who was my girlfriend back then, was going to Japan. for six months and I was like, Okay, well I'll go see you. And then I found myself at Metro Airport in Detroit on an airplane saying goodbye to my life in in Windsor. And I knew that when I got on that plane

that I was headed for something completely unknown. And then that turned into living ten years in Hiroshima, Japan. and my world changing and then leaving my hometown to experience the world. And since then we've moved to you know Azerbaijan and Cambodia and China. And we're now I mean, I'm in Saudi Arabia right now recording with you. So There is that element.

So um talk about your current role and all of those skills that you developed within yourself that are very personal yet apply professionally to every in teaching and learning. So yeah, just just talk about anything you want about the skills you've developed personally that apply professionally in the work that you're currently.

on the hunt to try to get better with things. And so I have tried very hard to be as present as I can. And that does not mean for me to roll out a yoga mat and and I don't want to take anything away from anybody that does, because I put in many hours on that yoga mat.

What I'm really talking about is is daily mindfulness, being really present, as present as I can, and then being aware when I get off track. And so some of the skills I've developed that have certainly helped me in different environments that I'm in right now, such as education or working as a psychological skills consultant with athletic teams or I'm in hour fifteen of an Iron Man race.

mindfulness and being where my feet are at mentally, taking that mental attendance as we talked about before, is something that is front and center for me and continues to be something that's important.

And there's many other skills that definitely have helped me. Goal setting is really important to me and just the mechanics and details of writing down goals is something that I've done from a long time. And I'm actually in my office right now And say I didn't even plan this. I didn't even this is just this right here, this book was given to me from my mother when I was in sixth grade.

I was hooked. So I set goals, all kinds of goals. I was playing sports like we we talked about earlier at the time, playing sports academically I set goals, set goals for a lot of variety of things. And then I got into high school, same thing. I got a little bit better on setting goals. And continued with that box. And then when I got to in in college in nineteen ninety-nine, I have a book. In fact, I might have it here. I'm not sure. I'm gonna see if I can find it.

But I have there it is right here. This right here is one of the most important things, and I am definitely not a material person. I I'm more interested in ideas and concepts and d and really just doing what we do in education. But this right here. This notebook. I started with goal goal setting, writing these down in this format in nineteen ninety nine. My first goal right here is in nineteen in the fall of nineteen ninety eight, actually, nineteen ninety eight.

is to be a starter on the MJC football team. That's goal number one. I have over three thousand and five hundred goals that are written down in here. And sixty percent or so have been completed at this time. And and again for me it doesn't really matter if it's a thumbs up there achieved or thumbs down. It is what it's partly what drives me. So I'm a feverish goal setter. I write down goals a lot and that's another method.

that seem unattainable and that you have to fight and walk over broken glass and over fire. No matter what you do, you have to have a resilient spirit to get there. And if you don't, you know, not that you're a failure if you don't, but It's this idea that, no, goal setting is actually micro goal setting as well. And micro goal setting sets the basis for getting to those big, hairy, audacious goals.

So you said you had three thousand five hundred goals in there and I love that goal setting has been so important but talk a little more about, you know, what that actually means and what that looks like and the power of micro goal setting and what micro goal setting might look like as well as the big macro goal.

But it did I certainly didn't understand this when I was eighteen years old. But that's intuitively these are things that I've really worked hard on. Philosophy and creating a vision. I didn't call it those back then, but really these are stretch goals. So It we really I I really worked hard on creating uh abstract vision of who I wanna be, what I wanna do, and specifically what it looks like. And then ninety five percent of the time

is in the space of the process and it's mindfulness. And there's there's a lot of research Locke and colleagues that that it's all wrapped around this. It runs deep and wide when it comes to goal setting. And and there are some individuals out there that that are poking at it right now and saying that it might not lead to flow state and this and that. That could be true, but it really depends on how we're using this as a tool.

as as any tool, it has to be doesn't have to be, but the suggestion is to use it certain ways that fits you, that allows you to facilitate your own growth and progression. And so For me, the micro to use your word, the process goals is something that Each day really just sets my intention. If I'm gonna write down, I want to be, or I'm going to be mindful today.

In psych one, I'm gonna come back to that. I'm gonna set reminders and I'm gonna hold myself accountable. Because here's here's how I've come to understand this. And again, I'm I'm trying to figure this out, but what I've learned for myself is when I get in rugged and hostile environments. I've already made the decision well before that that I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna be me. I'm gonna stay present. I've already made that decision. I didn't wait till I got punched in the mouth.

to decide oh I better get my shit together, you know? And so I think that what I I use goals to get ahead of some of those so that I could be more present when that time comes. Whether it's a classroom, whether it's being in a lake with another 2,000 swimmers getting punched in the mouth. In a swim, in a lake swim, or it's an ocean swim or whatever it is, any kind of environment, we all have our own rugged environment.

I think the goal setting for me, the micro goals, the process goals, they're what allow me to stay present. And and also I think a second piece is is it really it chin checks me, meaning that it keeps me accountable because our minds are awesome. They are really phenomenal. They're designed to keep us safe though. And they're highly adaptive. It's natural, it's common and it's normal. So for all you individuals out there that are trying to figure out ways to go do some great things, guess what?

We are not designed to do that. And so we want to get ahead of that. We want to figure out what are the conditions of our mind when things get really, really tough. And to do that for me, there's many ways. The goal setting is not the panacea for all, but it is something for me that I use that definitely helps.

me get ahead of it so I can write a goal that when I'm in I hour 15 of a triathlon or Iron Man, I am gonna be in the worst pain I've ever felt in my life. I've already told myself that I know that. But I made a an agreement. I made an agreement with myself right here.

Same thing when we're getting that that feedback from the students, we need to pivot and adjust. We need to be aware of those things. And then when times get tough, We've already told ourselves we're in the sink. So that is kind of how I use it, if that makes sense. That's how I use those micro goals.

And the work that I've done with a sports psychologist around golf. Uh so my son I you know, my son Eli went to the sports psychologist and he's gonna connect with you soon to have a conversation. But um he did a So I I had done some extensive work with one of the European Tours most um renowned sports psychologist, Doctor Carl Morris, who has coached Graham McDowell and

you know, so many different Louis Oostazen who who's done so much uh he's done so much work uh on the European tour, but what he talks about is this idea that you have to create an intention. that you create the intention first, but then it's intention and then it shifts to attention.

Depending on the the the lie of the ball and, you know, the shot you have to hit, what shot do I wanna create? And then the second, and so then automatically the answer is the visualization instead of forcing the visualization. And then it's how do I want my body to feel to create that shot? So now suddenly you're drawn back to the physical being and and the physical sensations of how you have to hit the shot.

Because it's not gonna be the same as every shot. It's very different because no matter what shot you hitting.

So no matter what happens, you you accept it. So rather if you snap hook it into the lake or into the forest, instead of throwing your club into the trees, you just accept this as part of the process. And and later the idea is that you go through your whole round or the whole tournament doing this, and then later you reflect on you know, where you were at throughout that process. you know so

Um, but you know, just just talk more and w what I would like you to to kind of discuss, because we've talked about rugged environment and the hostile environment. There's also the calm environment.

And the Michael Gervais ten, ten, ten. Right. So the ten ten deep breaths and you know, visualizing a calm environment. So can you do do you have you used that ten ten ten in in the work

There's there's so many ways to look at this and what what we're really trying to get from it. And for me personally, what I do now this is this it interestingly, I don't usually do this with athletes because for me I'm not necessarily trying to get calm. I I work from more of a cognitive model, which is more of a cognitive reappraisal. And and again to go back to what you were saying, I I I love how you artfully described

your that routine because that routine is wrapped around basically like three different theories. You have all kinds of things in there. and that that run really deep when it comes to science. And and I saw it's really, really good. What I like to do When I take a breath, just like I did, I remember my first day in the prison and also my first time going into open water swim. And when I take a deep breath, I do I use a box breathing kind of tempo, go really, really slow.

What I usually do is like a five, five, five, or even another five. So I'll go five seconds in and they're slow seconds. Sometimes I even work the beat of my heartbeat. And so I'll go five of those, really expand my belly. On the inhale, I'll hold my breath for five and I'll slowly exhale for five and then hold my breath for five.

and then repeat. And so there's some things going on right there. You know, we're developing tension. We're dissolving tension. So there's some things that are going on. What I like to do is that I've done it so many times and again I wanna be really clear that it's not figured out because it's a process. We call it a practice because it needs to be practiced daily and it's not anything like we've just hit the mother load. Like it's

We have this right, so it's something I practice all the time, but I've done this so many times. As soon as I get in an environment that's That's wrapped around you know, some sort of intensity. Again, my my perspective is more cognitive. I think we we use words and language and we create more hostility around a moment than we really need to.

And so, you know, I work with them for so long, I I figure out, hey, where are you feeling that? Are you feeling that in your chest, your hands, your heart, your breathing? Some people need to breathe to develop calm. And some people, there's there's some good research around ironic processing theory, meaning that if you tell them to take a deep breath to calm down, their heart rate's gonna go up, even if they take a deep breath.

So there's there is no one size fits all. For me personally, what works for me is more of a cognitive model. And when I take a deep breath, if I'm in a moment of intensity, For it's just it serves as a cue for me, even though my heart rate might still be up. I I tend I can drop into that moment

for the most part and then I have ways where I can refocus. I try as best I can to do that, but it's more of a conditioning cue for me to to be as present as I can and to think about what what am I what's the task relevant queue? Again, not to use these these these, you know, esoteric type of vocabulary terms of what it really comes down to being simple. What is important now? What is it that I'm looking at? What am I supposed to be shifting my attention?

to or towards? What am I supposed to be receiving? The information that we're getting through sensation and perception is rapid. And so things are changing so much. And so I try to really take that deep breath, that box breath. to be able to I guess use the word center even though I don't usually use that word to center but it's really for me to be where my feet are at to be present as best I can.

your unique process. So what is your unique process at that point? So you talked about um task relevant uh what did you say? Task

I'm gonna take you know I'm gonna take that deep breath that we talked about. Now, when we're getting punched in the mouth or we're in deep breath body of water, there's no breathing. And this is where the tr not traditional, but where the ancient wisdom and the Buddhist approach and Taoism might part ways with kind of the fast lane of the Western world.

which is we don't have time to roll out a mat. And I I remember talking to a Navy SEAL about this when they're kicking down a door and they're gonna go into some kind of environment where there could be a individual with the A K forty seven pointed at them. They They don't have time, you know, to take a breath. So what happens is is it's all the work that preceded that, it's all the deep work, the process that we've already talked about, the front loading, the goal setting.

that the imagery, the breath is just to get is to take that mental attendance to make sure we're there. And then when we're getting punched in the mouth, do we have something to refocus on that brings us back to what we're doing? And in in my circumstance, In my situation, I'm just using a pool. It could be, you know, it could be in the classroom. It could be many things.

But if I'm in a open water swim and I feel like I'm not being me. And what I mean by that is when I'm by myself in a very cozy pool, that is me being me. There's no distractions. Can I mimic that? in an environment that's wrapped around chaos, can I be me? That's kind of my metronome. That's not that's really the the litmus test for me. And so when I'm not doing that

I have a cognitive cue that I go to. And, you know, for me, this has been, I've used it for years, but it just works for me. I just tell myself, discipline mind. That's all. Now that has nothing to do with anybody. Maybe, maybe it'll work for you. Maybe it won't. I'm definitely not advocating you use that because that that might not work for you, but I've paired that.

So sometimes it's it's just boom, keep coming back, keep coming back, and it's just working the process.

work in the process and then let's evaluate later. You know, let's just figure this out later. Easier said than done because sometimes, you know, wow in rugged environments, we're evaluating quickly, but that's that second piece where it's that judgment. We're evaluating how it's going. And so I'm trying to re to reserve that judgment until the end. Now how I do it is using the cognitive cue.

In that kind of environment. And so if I'm in a classroom environment, I might have another queue that I go to. But essentially that's kind of what I what I go to.

And we got in into an interesting discussion about Mihai Chic Sent Mihai and Flow and all of this stuff. And he's like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop, stop with the flow stuff. I'm not going there because in my line of work I have no time to experience flow. And although I might be okay in a moment, it can change in an instant. And I have to make all of these micro calculations in my mind.

So it's not about shutting off the prefrontal cortex and and just being in the moment. I have to make these micro calculations because an an avalanche could happen in an instant. And I have to be very aware and make these calculations as I go down and try to find the best line of descent.

And in my head when he was talking about that I was thinking, well wait, wait, you've I'm thinking in my head that A lot of the training that he has done and a lot of extreme athletes is is so built into their subconscious. So if they just let their subconscious kick into gear, the micro calculations are already taking place as they go down the mountain because they're they've done it a million times. They they know they feel it. And that can be

of being in flow that you know, so that's where we kind of differed when I was talking to him about that. And I was like, no, I I think you're in flow, dude. I think you're in flow. Yeah. And then you've done this conscious work to

You know, I think there there's many layers here. I'm gonna see if I can really pull this together. But how I've come to understand it is there's a difference between autopilot and flow state. And so How athletes in rugged environments describe it, they're they might not be really good at it describing their their process, what they're going through, meaning that Flow is in control.

They feel that they're trying that they're thinking too much and they need to try to get out of their head and it's just gonna be automatic. It's just gonna automatically happen. And that is, at least from how I've understand it, especially in environments that are really tough, is that there is controllability and it's not automatic. We can

We could talk about different levels of consciousness, but there is and even flow state, even when individuals aren't flow state, it's such a low percentage. I think for a good reason because we're toggling toggling between subflow, full flow, and what happens is is that they're able to

be aware when they're in a flow state. There's there is high level alertness in flow state. So individuals are aware and they can see the environment changing. They might not be able to describe it that way. They might describe it as I just did what I do. But I really think that it's not automatic. I think that they've trained so well that they can pivot and adjust to all those natural unfolding moments. And so

Automatic is mindlessness, I think. And in fact, there's no control there. There's no control there. But they have certain things that they do that they go to that allows them to be back in that moment, that allows them to work that process.

And and so that's what we talk about with our athletes. As soon as we talk, as soon as we're trying to figure out ways to get all the mind out of it. I think that is sometimes when we run into problems now it doesn't mean we're flooding our mind with things. I think we need to have a system. We need to have a a process and a system.

of organizing the way that we work. And that's where the beauty, the beautifulness of the individual comes in, that everybody organizes things differently. Just like my office right here or you or someone you know, they organize their

their environment, their room, their office, they know where their things are at. They know exactly where they're at. Same thing in our head. We're not trying to get rid of everything, but we're just kind of moving some things around, organizing them, using them at the right time. And so I think that That individual that's that's going straight down. I mean, the way you say it, man, I could see him going straight down.

What would you have the teachers focus on and deliver to their students to ensure that every student had a chance to succeed and flourish in their own ways?

For the most part, many people create so much noise around the moment and we we've been using the word rugged and hostile, but they create intensity around moment where they can't even have an intention because it's like trying to learn how to swim when we're drowning. And so what we want to do, what I would do is, and again, we all know we're we're totally biased with this, with our backgrounds, but with that of Dow, it would be early in the morning and it would be mindful movement.

It would be mindful movement. And the reason I say bias is because I use it myself when I go out for long runs, is I really try to get connected to this is the mind body. Again, another cliche, but it's

Can we do that? Because that's rugged. We haven't really talked about that either, because boredom could be on the other end of that continuum as well, not jumping off a a mountain going straight down. That is one way of doing it. Another way of doing it is rolling out a mat, sitting on a pillow, or just getting sitting in your house during a major pandemic and being bored for a little bit.

where people are trying to control the environment so they're trying to increase stimulation, that could be rugged too for some people. And of course in some people that might have some pre existing health conditions or mental health or physical health as well. So what it would look like, I would think, would be to

have some sort of formal mindfulness practice. And then from there is to embed some mindful movement that's wrapped around cardiovascular or cardiorespiratory type of training because we know the research is just runs as wide as it gets when it comes to enhancing cognition. increasing mental performance when it comes to academic And so that would precede.

Period one, period two. And then I would also say that so we would have some sort of formal mindfulness practice. How that looks for everybody is a little bit different, but it would be isolated, meaning we're going to do this at eight o'clock for two minutes, for three minutes. It would be isolated. That's a formal mindfulness.

And then we would have a movement based mindfulness to use some of your work that you've done is is it is it autonomous? Are they able to pick what they want? I think that's important'cause of the, you know, intrinsic motivation and

And how it's goal directed, mindful movement, wrapped around cardiovascular type of training. And there's many ways we can do that. You you play basketball, you can, you know, run, get on a bike, Donnie Robinson, right? So get on a BMX bike. There's so many things that the individual can do. And then the big one is is more informal mindfulness throughout the day. So we don't just wanna leave it on on the the BMX track. We wanna just leave what we did.

In the PE classroom, we want to take that with us throughout the day and embed what we call informal mindfulness training. So check in, take mental attendance throughout the day. And these are things we would teach our students. Set a timer. Disrupt yourself a little bit. We have to have disruption.

To use your words right here, how do we go from intention to attention? I think we have to make have some kind of disruption. So we need to have some kind of reminder. Some people are mentally disciplined enough where they can remind themselves internally. For the most part, we're we're we're in rugged times already with the pandemic, but we have cell phones, we have a lot of noise, so having some sort of external reminder

such as a time or a timer that goes off every 30 minutes or every hour that just allows you to check in where are you at right now? Can you feel yourself sitting in your chair? You know, how are your feet rooting against the mat or the ground? Where are your eyes supposed to be in the classroom? Back to task-relevant cues to use sports and transfer that to generalize that to the classroom, it would look like this.

You know, what's important now with task relevant cues for a student is eyes on the eyes of the teacher, the professor, or the instructor, eyes go to your notes or eyes go to the board, and they're shifting between those two. So we have to give them some kind of focal point because that's the mindfulness training. That's more the contemplative approach. And then what I just said there, that might not be what you do. You might want their eyes on the front elbow.

You might want the eyes as you're teaching a skill on the hips. Whatever it is, I think it's important to figure out. For a math teacher, the eyes are probably going to be on the board or the eyes of the instructor back to the notes and toggling back and forth. I think that's how informal mindfulness plays out.

But again, having some sort of formal mindfulness, mindfulness movement, getting the heart rate up and then having informal practice would be it makes me happy right now to think about that. That would be really cool if we had that.

And when you look at a curriculum and you look at the amount of time that teachers have with students, in particular single subject teachers, so music teachers, art teachers, physical education teachers, they might only have 40 minutes a week.

Right. So do do they really have time to teach all of the physical skills necessary to succeed in sport and movement? No, they don't. Time will be wasted. So it's more about Uh teaching them the skills to get them centered and focused, but then to personally. Learning in ways that allow them to flourish and then find their entry points. And that's what we're talking about.

And the going back to the start of this conversation about tweaking and modifying and adjusting what we do to base who we are as a person, the strengths that we have, the context that we're working in. And uh I wish all schools would would run this way, you know, but they don't.

And what I mean here's here's the litmus test that I run through, kind of the filter I run through is when I walk into a classroom. Yeah, uh really speaking of a lecture class,'cause that's where I spend most of my time, but even even a physical education course is

How's the attention of the students? Are they engaged? I mean, out of the gate, that's the number one thing that I look at myself and how I'm trying to pivot and adjust to get them back in is how is the attention? How are they, what's their level of focus? And so I think.

That we do miss a lot. The students might, they don't know what they're supposed to be focused on. Just like back to our coaching days, is A receiver or a defensive back comes off the field and we tell them the obvious look, dude, you got beat deep.

10 different reps throughout the classroom. And that's what we do in my site classes is we do we do audio or audible cues. I say hands, they throw their hands up, yeah, 50 to 60 seconds.

Hitting that mark? How much are we losing? So then what's risk versus reward? How much time are we really using to take a breath? How long does it take? Five seconds in, five seconds out? So that's just something to think about, I think, for all of us. Myself included, because there's so much content to put in for our students.

So they might really enjoy what they do and they enjoy the people they're around and they're inspired by the people that they're around, but they might not have the choice to be able to go

to an online remote platform and still preserve that. And so luckily the college that I'm at has has adjusted nicely and it's not the best approach to delivery with some of the stuff that we do, but it certainly keeps us connected and to use your word the inspiration is definitely there where we're able to see our athletes

And we're and I'm able to see my students and work with them and to continue to develop in such a really tough space that we're in right now, that definitely keeps me connected to the main purpose of what I'm all about in education.

You know, we need that. We need people like you to do what you do that keeps us all grounded and moving forward at the same time. I think it's really important. So love love having uh love having this discussion. I appreciate your time and a lot of respect for what you do.