You're listening to Two-Brain Radio. We make gyms profitable. Getting you on track to make every day your Perfect Day. Every week we'll deliver top-shelf business tactics to help improve your gym, advance your fitness career and move you closer to wealth. Get ready to start building your bigger and better business with your coach, bestselling fitness author of "Two-Brain Business," "Grow Your Gym" and "Help First," Chris Cooper
This episode is brought to you by Zen Planner. If you've read my books, you know that I've been a Mindbody guy since about 2007, but this year something happened that made a massive difference. I met Zen Planner. And talking to these guys, I realized how responsive they are and how much they actually care about CrossFit affiliates and the gym industry in general. These guys are willing to listen.
They'll make changes based on what gyms actually need instead of the window dressing stuff that gym owners just kind of like, they think it makes them look cool. Things that will actually change the client experience. Metrics that your coaches can use to gauge how well your clients are reacting to your programming. Check-in tools, attendance tools, WOD tracking and scoreboards, the ability to plan and have people book appointments online and pay online. True automation of your
business.I love working with these guys. We're gonna have a great relationship through building a customized Two-Brain dashboard and they've got so many amazing upgrades in the pipeline that will cancel out the need for other software. You should check them out. Zenplanner.com. They've been around forever, but they keep getting better. Jeremy Kinnick is an OG in the CrossFit world. He was in the 2008 Games and if you've ever seen the movie "Every Second Counts," you'll see him in there.
He was brought to CrossFit the same way that I was, by watching another movie called "300." Because he's an OG, because he's been around for over a decade, this interview focuses a lot on stories and lessons learned. But because he's an OG, I'm going to introduce them the way that we used to introduce each other back in the day, and that's with some stats. Jeremy has a 307 clean and jerk. He's got a 535 deadlift. He's got a 476 Fight Gone Bad, count those reps folks, that's incredible.
He's got a 2:12 Fran, he's got a 1:18 Grace. He's got a 7:13 Helen. A 1650 Filthy Fifty, a 1:05 400-meter s print and a 20-minute 5k. That is a remarkable athlete, but Jeremy i s also a remarkable human. He is a dad first. He's a great partner to his wife. He has two gyms that he owns with his brother that he started in his garage and s till has some of the original members. He's taken teams to the Games. He's been there twice himself. Nothing says CrossFitter like J eremy Kinnick does.
In this episode, we're going to talk a lot about hard lessons learned about how the landscape of CrossFit competition and CrossFit gym ownership has changed. How one has shaped the other t hen and now, and also what he would do differently if he was opening right now. H e's going to share a lot of these lessons to help save you some trouble. This was an amazing interview. Jeremy is wide open about stuff. H e s hares some pretty deep secrets and I know you're g onna love it.
J eremy's been a hero of mine for over a decade and it was a real pleasure to talk to him, so I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Jeremy Kinnick. All right, everyone. I'm back here with Jeremy Kinnick of CrossFit Kinnick and Jeremy has been to the Games on his own, he's been to the Games on a team. He's been to just about every Regional there is. He's been around for longer than I have and I'm going to let him tell you the whole story, but first, welcome, Jeremy.
Thanks. Thanks for having me Chris.
Oh, it's my pleasure, man. Listen, tell me, you know, what brought you to CrossFit in the first place?
I've told this story a bunch of times before. I usually tell a lot of new members this, cause I think it's funny, we watched the movie "300," remember that movie?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And we thought those guys were in pretty good shape. We weren't sure if it was fake or if it was real, you know, was it computer graphics, was it shadowing, whatever. And so, we kind of looked into it a little bit and we were like, hey, we want to look like those guys, you know? And so we looked into it and kind of found out what they're doing, roundabout way and found CrossFit.
So we just started messing around with it in the garage and we were all out of shape and it was pretty much my brother and some of his buddies and you know, so we looked for a place to work out. We ended up, you know, in my, my garage, I had just bought a house so I had a nice three-car garage and started just playing around with it and you know, checking it out and it was terrible. Right. I mean, the workouts were hard and I didn't like it too much when I started, too hard.
There was no scaling options and you just had to do it. If it was on the board or if that was the workout, you just did it, you know?
Yeah. So what made you stick with it?
I think it was the fact that my younger brothers and his friends and their friends, rather, were beating me. I didn't really like that. And you know, I little bit before that, before finding CrossFit, I grew up playing sports. I played baseball and soccer my whole childhood. In high school, I played soccer and baseball and a little bit of football. And so I was always athletic. Always in really good shape.
In college I played a little bit of baseball and then I got busy, you know, started getting a little bit older, stopped playing and not working out much and got behind a desk and gained a bunch of weight. I didn't realize it, but I gained a bunch of weight. And so I was at at one point and it's funny, CrossFit recently re-posted my before-and-after picture on the CrossFit Games page. Yeah, on the Instagram and I was about 235 and about 30% body fat. That was when I started CrossFit.
And so I was frustrated, you know, we're starting to work out and I'm like, I'm in good shape. I can beat these little kids, you know, my brother's friends and stuff and I couldn't do anything. And it was frustrating. And so I didn't like it because I wasn't good at it kind of thing and that was what I was dealing with when I started, you know?
Wow. But your competitive nature kept you going.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
And that led you to competition too, right?
Yeah. You know, when we started, it was 2007 and it was actually right before the first CrossFit Games . It was in March, April of 2007. And the first ever CrossFit Games, I believe was in July. And so we were, you know, like anybody when they started back then, just going on main site, going to CrossFit.com looking at the workout of the day, watching videos of Nicole Carroll, Annie Sakamoto and Eva T, and you know, all the guys, Greg and you know, all those studs.
And you know, it was just getting used to that and trying to figure out how to do things. I remember watching Nicole Carroll's video on my laptop in my house. I'd watch the video and then I'd run up to the garage and I tried to do the kipping pull-up, and then I'd run back in, and I watched it again. I'd run outside.
I literally, because I was working at home for the time, I literally spent almost all day trying to learn the kipping pull-up and I got the first kipping pull-up out of all our little group and so I couldn't wait for everybody to come over that night. At that time we were working out at like nine, 10 o'clock at night when everyone's done with work. And I was so, so proud to show, you know, everyone, look it, I got the kipping pull-up guys. And well, you know, I had bloody hands at the time.
I didn't care cause I got a kipping pull-up, you know. So yeah, so it was right before the first CrossFit Games. We saw it and we were like, oh, that's so cool. But there was no way we were going to go. We weren't gonna drive up to Aromas, we're like where's that? It's Aromas. What are we going to do up there? So, not until, if I remember correctly, I believe after seeing that there was a CrossFit Games, we were like, oh, that kind of seems cool.
That might be cool to do if they do it again next year, let's keep that in mind. And s o, you know, we're training and we're doing the CrossFit workouts and we did Fran for the first time. Because w e had kipping pull-ups so we could do Fran.
Oh yeah.
Of course, you gotta do Fran. So I think my first time was like 17 and a half minutes, taking it out of the rack and then squat into a medicine ball. And kipping, no butterfly, just kipping pull-ups, you know, and you know, that was kind of the beginning, you know. And then 2008 rolls around, my wife's about eight months pregnant and they announced the Games and if you want to go to the Games, sign up and show up. And so I was like, man, my brother's like, dude, we should go.
My brother John, and he's like, we should go to the Games . I'm like, I don't know man. My wife's eight months pregnant, we just got married, let you know. If you can convince her. My brother's pretty persuasive. He's pretty good at that. I said, hey, if you can convince her, I'm down, let's go. So somehow he talked to my wife and she's—I mean she was about to pop, but somehow he convinced her to get in the back of an RV and drive up to Aromas, eight months pregnant.
Oh my goodness.
You know, and so that was kind of the—and once we got there and once we competed, it was just like over. Like there was no turning back. I loved every second of it and we were so sore. I've never been that sore in my life, you know, from, what was it, three workouts. Like three or four workouts. One was like a run on the hill and I felt broken. And you know, s eeing guys that we're watching o n these videos, like C hris Spealler up there and OPT a nd AFT and all these guys, old-school guys.
And then competing next to them, i t was like, o h my gosh, like this is amazing. And then after the 2 008 Games, I told my brother, I said, I can do this. I think I can compete with these guys. I want to start training hard. And that was like, that was the start, I think for me. And I'm still training hard and my brother still p rograms for me and we still are talking about stuff and y ou k now, i t's b een, you know, 10 years, 11 years of doing this and I absolutely, absolutely love it.
What did training harder mean back then, Jeremy? Like all of us were just looking at dot com, right?
Yeah, it didn't mean more workouts in the day. It didn't mean, you know, it didn't mean necessarily more volume. It just meant with more intensity, you know, kinda taking my nutrition a little bit more serious. I followed the Zone, you know, because I was overweight before I started, so I followed the Zone diet. And I followed that for most of the years that we've done CrossFit. Probably not until the last few years did we switch over to more of tracking macros.
But I mean, I don't think it was—I don't know how possible it was to track macros when we first started, you know, cause the apps weren't available and none of that was really available. But yeah, it just meant, you know, getting more strict, figuring out how to eat better and then working out harder, just going as hard as you can. That was what it was and it wasn't, I don't think it was anything more than that, really.
Yeah. OK. So somewhere along the line, you know, you're competing every single year and they're adding like layers that you have to jump past to get to the Games. It's getting harder and harder and harder. In that time, you decide, I'm going to open an affiliate too, right? Why?
Well, we opened up, my brother and I—this all started together with us. Well we started it in 2007 in November, 2007. So it was even before we went to that first Games, because we had some, you know, we kept asking, you know, like Coach Glassman always talks about, you know, he did Fran, then he went over to his neighbor, you know, he's got throw-up all over his chest and he goes, hey, I got this cool workout. Want to come try? Right. It was the same with our friends.
And my brother actually, he was a youth pastor at the time. So we got, you know, like some of the guys, we asked their parents, hey—I think he asked their parents, I don't know. But they came over to my house and they're in my garage and these, you know, 16, 17-year-old kids are trying CrossFit. And so we did that and everyone loved it. And so by the end of that year, in November, we became an affiliate. We were like, hey, you can do this, you can become an affiliate? Let's give this a try.
And so we started in the garage and I mean, we had like wooden racks , like my brother built things out of wood. If he could have made weights out of wood , I think he would have tried to do that. We had this like Trojan horse-looking like GHD that he built. And we just had the bare minimum. And I mean, it was rough, you know. But I wasn't involved as much in it, in the business. And I don't even know if we would call it a business in the beginning.
We just wanted to be called a CrossFit gym because we thought it was cool. In April, 2008, so a few months later we had some members and that's when we opened up an actual— we got a facility. And so we moved there and then I started training classes and really got involved in the gym. Yeah.
OK. Already in 2008, you're balancing competing yourself with like training other people and at least helping your brother run this business. What was it like back then to be a high-level competitor and an affiliate owner? Was there a benefit to doing both?
Was there a benefit? I would say I don't know.
Would people ever seek out your gym because you were on "Every Second Counts" or whatever, you know, they've heard of you because of CrossFit?
Yeah, I think back then more than now, because that was like a big deal. And not that it's not now, but CrosssFit's changed. We'll get to that later. But I think that then it was, the Games was so brand new and there wasn't as much of a focus from CrossFit on health and wellness and stuff. There was, I don't want say there wasn't, but there's a lot bigger push now for it I think. But then it was, it was like we were trying to find out what human bodies could do, really, in the beginning.
And it's just kind of evolved since then. But, and so I would say, I would say—still haven't really answered that question. It's kind of a tough one. I think that there was a huge push. Like people wanted to be competitors more then, and we had a lot more people at our gym that were coming like, oh, you, Jeremy, you've been to the Games, I want to train with you. And it was more valuable then than I think it is now. I know personally I put a lot more effort.
I was more focused on that in the beginning. Just cause it was like this whole new world, it was like so foreign and so brand new and fresh and exciting. And you know, I think that there was definitely a big advantage then. And we didn't have a lot of members. And so it wasn't—the gym didn't keep me as busy. I h ave an infant, you know, one child, now I have t wo, and now they're in sports. But then they weren't, it wasn't a big deal.
My wife w as a stay-at-home mom and so she handled that stuff and I got to do the gym and w ork o ut. It was like, it was perfect. And my brother, you know, we set up things so that I could work and I could train and we worked really, really well together and that was a big thing, like that we tried to do as a gym and running o f t he business. And I don't know that it was necessarily the best thing for the business. My efforts being put more into, you know, me working out.
But I do think it did draw a lot of a lot of people and it created a good name. Which has, you k now, kind of h elped us through the years, I think.
Do you get that now? Like people coming in and saying, "Wow, this is Jeremy Kinnick's gym"?
We still get it. We'll get people—I think now more than anything we get a lot of referrals from friends that live elsewhere. They go, hey, we do CrossFit, and you're near—you know, CrossFit Kinnick, you should go there. You know, Jeremy has done this and that and been to Games , they've been around a long time and that kind of stuff. We get a lot of that. But yeah, I'd say we get a lot of that.
OK. And when these people come in, are they looking to compete, too? And is that why they're seeking you out or does that credibility translate into well he can help me more because he's gone to this level?
Yeah. I dunno how many years ago. We don't get a lot of people coming in and saying, I want to compete at the Games .
OK.
We don't get that as much anymore as we did maybe five years ago or four years ago. And especially this year for us specifically, our region's been changed to now the whole west coast. And so, you know, things have changed and so. But we do get more, I think more people are coming in saying, Hey, I know that you guys have been around a long time and you can help me get fit and you can help me with nutrition and you can help me.
And if I do want to push myself and challenge myself, you guys do offer that. We hear a lot of, you know, oh , you guys are a competitive gym, you're a competitor gym. And I would completely disagree with that. And my brother, we've talked about that a lot and I think what we are is we're very old school, in the sense of we're going to focus on the fundamentals and the basics and we're going to give people what they need in programming and give that balance.
And that ends up being leading to I think really good results, and we're going to focus on nutrition. And so if you're consistent and you're doing good programming and you're eating well, then you're going to get really good results. And so sometimes that leads to wanting to compete and that kind of stuff. You know.
You've done this a number of ways. I mean, you did it as an individual, you did it on a team, you know, you've done it in one of the newer masters classes. Now how has the kind of competitive landscape for CrossFit changed in the last few years?
Last few years?
Let's call it the Reebok era.
I would say before Reebok was around even when they were around for the first two years, I would say up until like maybe 2013, 14, it was, you know, people just were doing CrossFit and they got good at it. And I feel like now more and more we're seeing people coming into CrossFit or changing sports or even younger teens say, I'm training to go to the Games . They're not even old enough to be in the teen category and they're training to go to the Games .
I think we're seeing a lot more people coming into CrossFit for that. And I think before we weren't seeing that as much as, it was just you came and did CrossFit and you were good at it and then you go, OK, now I want to try to compete. You know, I think that's a big change. And its growth the last couple yeas has been insane. The numbers of the number of people and the things that people are able to do performance-wise.
OK. I definitely get that. So it's getting harder and harder to compete for the Games. You say that, you know, there's not a direct business benefit to competing. So what drives Jeremy Kinnick to compete every year?
That's a great question because I think about that, and you know what, probably the last couple of years—well after—so let me take a couple steps back. After the 2015 Games on team, I was pretty banged up. I had some knee issues and I hadn't really dealt with much injuries before that. And volume was just too high.
I was doing too much, wasn't able to recover and I kinda got burned out a little bit and kind of took some steps back, and I really started focusing more on the business and more on the gym and helping others. Really started doing that a lot. And I just really missed—I just love competing. I don't compete and I never really—we never started CrossFit to do the Games. And even in the beginning it was never about going to the Games. It was never about that.
And then, you know, kind of, you know, the last two years I was as an individual, 2011 and '12, it was kind of getting to the point where I was training for the Games, and I liked those years, obviously I got to the Games, it was awesome, but it wasn't as fun and my focus had changed and it was very stressful and I just didn't enjoy it as much and then, you know, get back to the Games on a team was awesome.
Sharing that with my wife and sharing that with some of the guys that we've, you know, Nick, one of our guys that started in the garage when he was a 17-year-old, he just turned 28. And you know, being able to share that experience with him, something that I'd done a few times was just probably the best year for me as, you know, at the Games. I enjoyed it more. And it was a lot of fun, but I keep competing—I really just love it. I love to challenge myself.
I love to keep seeing what I can do and I'm still improving. I'm getting better, and I've found a better balance where I can—you know, my boys are in Little League. Little League is during the Open. And as a gym owner , that's the craziest time of year and you know, so my focus has changed a little bit, I don't use the excuse of, well, I can't give as much time and effort as I used to, so I'm not even gonna try. I'm just still going to try. That's just who I am; that's just my personality.
I'm going to keep working as hard as I can. If that means I do the group class workout and nothing else, I'm going to still give my best to that. And what's nice about masters, it's almost like was perfect timing is I don't have to be as good as the 28-year-olds and the 23-year-olds in the individual categories anymore. Now I can go against the older guys, right. The masters.
And so it's allowed me to kind of take a couple of steps back and reduce my volume and focus on being healthy and put focus into the gym. A Lot more focus into the gym and our members and a lot more time with my boys and a lot more time with my wife. And just having better balance, because I just didn't have that. I didn't have any balance those earlier years. It was just all CrossFit and it was all competing, and that was my life. And I enjoyed it, but you know, I couldn't do that forever.
So now, I mean, obviously, your kids grew up with CrossFit, you know, your wife had like 375 deadlift last night or the night before on Instagram. I mean, obviously it is a family event, but like can the whole family kind of get burned out on CrossFit, too?
Can they? Yeah, but we're not there. We're not there at all. And I think it's just because we're able to stay balanced, you know? And I know—like I just fit workouts it in between stuff. I train our morning group classes and do some personal training in the morning and do some office work and stuff like that. And then I've got a good break from like noon to four before I train our 4-p.m. class. And so I get most of my—when I can, I do a group class. I like to work out with our members, it's fun.
I like to be told what to do just like everybody else. And have that competition, you know, with other members and stuff like that. But like during baseball season, I can't do that. For the boys. And so my wife and I will typically work out in the middle of the day, which is really nice, we'll work out around 2, my boys will come over and we'll work out and they'll do some stuff. And they always like to deadlift. So I have to tell them no sometimes. But, so it's like family time.
And even though like our world and our life consists of—mostly consists of CrossFit and revolves around the gym, we still get a lot of fun family time, and I think that helps with get with dealing with getting burned out. Because we're still having good quality family time, you know.
That is awesome man. So we're going to segue into box ownership here by talking about the fact that you still work out with the groups at your gym. So that means you've gotta be doing very similar programming to what everybody else is doing instead of kind of like, you know, the secret squirrel Games-level competitor programming, right?
Yeah, yeah. I think maybe two, only two or three years of the 11 years that I've been doing this, I did like the magic secret, special, in-the-corner-b-yourself workout. But otherwise it's been, I follow the same program that our gym does. And you know, added in more stuff and you know, some lifting and added in some skill work. But I would always do the class workout. And then there was a few years where I didn't, and it was less fun. I didn't enjoy that as much.
And now as often as I can, I'm in the group class. So everyone, you know, we have some guys that were at Regionals last year as an individual, and they do the same workouts that the gym does. The way we do it is we have three different levels, or not levels, but like three different options each day for the workout. We have like an element which is like super basic, simple, lower-skill, you know like power snatch, or instead of a squat clean we're gonna do front squats, or something like that.
Very, very basic stuff. We have a fitness version which is like majority of our members, you know, and then we have an advanced version which will be higher-skill stuff, a little bit heavier, stuff that's going to get someone that is interested in competing, kind of get them ready. We've done that for probably the last four years, three or four years.
And that seems to allow us to keep all of our competitors in class and all the people that are interested in doing—we don't really have anybody here doing like other programming. They just do what we do. And so it's tough to balance that, but we've been able to do that. So it's nice. It's nice as an owner to be able to be in class with people that are just regular members. Just, you know, soccer moms and office workers and just regular people. And they love it, too.
They really like being in class. I was talking to one of our members recently and getting some info because I was putting up an Instagram post about him and he was saying, you know, one thing that I love, he's been with us for like eight years. He's like, one thing I love is that I get to work out next to guys that are going to the Games or competing at Regionals and it's fun and it's fun for everybody.
It's fun for us and it's fun for the people that are just there to get fit and healthy, it's a nice environment.
Wow, that's great man. OK, so on the business side now, you guys have two gyms, right?
Correct. Yes.
And what led you to open the second gym? What was the conversation that made you say, I can do this again?
It was the desire, I think from us to kind of grow and just keep growing. The gym was getting kind of full , and we had a good amount of trainers that they wanted more. And so there was an area that we wanted to kind of go into and so just wanting to—I mean we loved it.I mean, not we loved it, but we love it. And so we wanted to keep growing and keep going and be able to impact more lives.
So we were either thinking, expand the current gym into a larger gym or open up a second one and we ended up going with opening a second one just so we could kind of have, I feel like a larger reach and give our other trainers that were interest in making a living out of this, give them opportunity for that.
OK. So box ownership then and now, very different, right? On balance, is it easier now or harder now to run a CrossFit business?
It's completely different. It's just completely different. Because the focus then years ago was more on just on performance and now it's so much more, obesity is just running rampant in our country, chronic disease, and Glassman talks about it all the time. And more and more we're trying to go into that and we're trying to not focus so much of our attention on the performance aspect as we are on the getting people health. And so a lot of our energy is spent on how can we do that.
This last probably year and a half I've been really diving into audiobooks on Audible and just listening to as much about mental toughness, about gym ownership, about running businesses, you know, like "Shoe Dog," listened to "Shoe Dog." I'm actually listening to you. I'm not kissing your butt right now, but I'm listening to— I am. I totally am. I'm listening to "Help First" the second time. I just finished it and I'm listening to it the second time.
Oh thanks, man,
Yeah, it's great. I love it. And just trying to provide a better business so that we can help more people. And we didn't really think about that so much and I think we were really focused on movement. Maybe maybe to a fault. Where that was the most important thing was we've got to make sure—we're really good at it. We're really good at getting you to squat and getting you to do kipping pull-ups and getting you to do butterfly pull- ups and really good at getting performance.
And we weren't focusing as much on getting people—not that we weren't focused on people getting healthy, but I think we're just focusing on it more now. And it's a bigger part of our business now than it was before. And I don't know if that's just a common theme affiliates or just because we're an older gym and that's what was—I think that was bigger back then. I think it was like, hey, like everyone wants to go to the Games, you know, like everybody wants to go compete in local competitions.
I think we're just—we used to run a local competition. We did, I think 11 of them for years. It was Battle of the Boxes and we did them all in house and they were massive. And then at some point they stopped being so big. A lot more gyms were doing them and we kind of just stopped with that. We didn't see the need anymore. And so it's just a different focus now, really is what it is. It's still challenging, but it's just, I think a different—a big shift and a different focus.
OK so when you say you're focusing more on health, I mean, if I was in a time machine and I looked at your gym 10 years ago and I looked at your gym now, where would I see the difference in focus? I mean, are you talking about social media and blog posts? You know, your presence in the community personally; what do you mean?
I mean we focused a lot on nutrition. We were all about having our members do the Zone. We're still really big on nutrition, but we are, I think, doing a better job of helping people start eating better and not just saying here, do the Zone. Doing a better job of, you know, people that have crazy schedules or have different issues, kind of tailoring things more towards a wider range of people.
And I think also just myself being more involved in the community working out in class and being around more. Being at the gym more and not necessarily working more, but I mean, I am working more, but just being available instead of in my corner doing my thing. So I think that has helped a lot. Spending more time trying to mentor our trainers and get them on the same page so that I don't have to do everything. I like to do everything, but that's , I mean, I'm sure you understand that.
Yeah.
But, you know, allowing, you know, and that's part of my listening to more audiobooks, listening to more podcasts to get more information on how to share that and mentor our staff. And so they can start doing more stuff and we can build that more broad and robust business. We just recently listened to your podcast about building a robust business.
Oh, cool.
And so I think now we're seeing a little bit more depth, more options for getting people started. I think that's probably the biggest thing. Took me a while to get there, but that's probably the biggest thing is it's easier and there's just a lot more options for people that are afraid of CrossFit to start at our gym. That was a real big thing that I've taken from listening to your podcasts and reading your book is making it easier for people to join the gym.
Oh, thanks, man.
Oh, you're welcome. Whether it's just a nutrition thing or it's a no-barbell class or whatever it is, just makeing it easy for people to join in, you know, kind of taking away that barrier, you know, all those steps. We had a lot of steps years ago. Do this and then this, and then you have to go through this, and then, you know, if you want to do group classes then you can start group classes.
And by that time people were like, either they loved it and they're staying, or they're out, they're like I'm out of here.
Right. OK. What's the hardest conversation you've ever had with a client?
I try to communicate with our members as much as I can and stay contact and talk to them and pull them in the office when they need to. And so I hear a lot of stuff from men and women that I am surprised that they're comfortable telling me, which is awesome, I think. I don't know if I can nail down the toughest question. That was the question, right, the toughest?
Have you ever had to fire a client?
I've made clients leave. I'm glad my brother's not on this call, but we have had issues with, you know, members kind of harassing women. Like it's always guys, it seems like. 'Cause we're jerks, you know. To women, it seems like, right? And so I have had to do with that, where I've had to tell people we're not gonna be OK with that. Or you're not gonna be able to talk to my trainer like that. And they leave. And you know, we've had that over the years. Not too much.
But, you know, I've come a long way with dealing with that stuff and trying to figure out the best way to go about that. You know, cause people have bad days, right. And they're not very nice sometimes, but I try to remind our staff, you know, this is like if someone comes into our gym, we really don't know what's going on outside of here. Right? We don't know what's going on in their life. And so if someone comes in and they're upset or mad or grumpy or short, you don't know what just happened.
You don't know if their wife just said, hey, I think I'm going to leave you, or hey, I'm cheating on you. Or they lost their job. Or if someone died or they found out they have some kind of disease or their wife just had a miscarriage or I mean, the list goes on. We don't know. And so we have to—and I think if we keep that in mind as trainers and as a gym staff in general, then when someone's a little bit upset or they're having a bad day, then then like it's easier for us to like brush it off.
But you know, there's also a fine line of, I'm not gonna let my trainers, I'm not gonna let people abuse my trainers verbally, that's just not gonna happen. So we have had to have that conversation in the past. But it's not fun. It's not uncomfortable. I don't like that at all. You know? I don't think anyone does. I mean, I'm sure some people do, but I don't like to—we're here because we want people, to help them reach their goals and help them be healthy and live a nice life, you know?
Yeah. You know, now that you say that, I think that's brilliant because if I have a horrible day and I get terrible news, the first thing I'm going to do is go to the gym.
Yeah, exactly. Let some steam off.
That's it. OK. What is one client that you wish you could get back? You don't have to name a name. Just tell me the scenario.
Yeah, there was—it comes to mind real quickly. There was a young lady that we had a long time ago, many years ago, and she started with us because she wanted to—her friend was getting married and she wanted to get in shape for the wedding. I think she was going to be in the wedding. And so she started with us and she was a smaller girl. I mean she wasn't—didn't have much weight to lose. I don't know really know what she was trying to do. Like it didn't make sense. I was like, you look fine.
It's great. But she became one of my favorite members from the standpoint of she listened to everything, you know, we would suggest, she worked hard and she was tough. I mean she was tough as nails. She was like a little ant, cause she was just—she was so tough and she was so fun to watch and she would get this look on her face where like she's somewhere else.
And she was just a great part of the community, kind of a quiet, but it was like a quiet leader and a lot of people looked up and respected her. And then she ended up moving. She ended up competing at Regionals and she did really well and she ended up moving and it was like, ah, I can't believe you're leaving. And it was a tough, tough time. We're still in contact and it's great to see her still doing CrossFit, having a family and all that stuff. But I definitely would have her back.
Yeah, for sure.
OK. Was there ever a client where they left over a misunderstanding or something and you thought like, oh man, I blew it. And you wish you had a second chance of that client?
Many times. Yes.
OK. Give me an example.
Years ago, middle of a workout, I lost my temper and just kind of barked at someone, and you know, just heat of the moment, tired. They were cracking a joke. And I didn't take it as a joke and kind of yelled at him a little bit. Or a lot. And it led to them leaving and you know, sometimes—and it still bothers me a little bit, you know, cause you don't want to be that guy. You know, you don't want to do that.
And sometimes in the middle of working hard, you're tired and you kind of lose control I guess, lose a little bit of self-control . So he stopped coming to our gym. But this was like in the very beginning when we first started. First came to the new box. So that was a bummer.
Yeah. Well I think we've all been there and the reason that I poked you so hard on that one was I think that people who've owned a box for less than five years, maybe they're just having that first experience now. And I want them to hear from us that we've done it, too. OK. Jeremy, let's say a new client walks in today, right? What is the most perfect thing that they could say? Where does the perfect client come from? What do they already know about you?
Or what's the perfect question for them to ask?
I think someone coming in and they, you know, that has looked on our website, understands, you know, what we're doing, understands what we have to offer and comes in and just says, you know, I'm not where I want to be and I haven't been for a long time and have been thinking about it for a long time. And so, you know, someone that's motivated , and I need to get healthy for my family. And that's one that we find a lot. And those tend to be the members that take it the most serious.
You know, they're overweight and they have some health issues and their eating's out of control and they don't really know what to do. And they don't think they know everything. You know, I think it's hard when you get members coming in that know everything. They don't need your help. I know how to eat, coach. I know how to work out, you know. Cause I think it's harder—you know, that ego gets in the way.
It's like, well I know you that you know how to do it and you've done it before but you're not doing it. So you know that whole knowledge issue, right? Like knowing—and so when someone comes in and they don't really know what to do, they're like, I'm stuck. I have younger kids and I don't want to be messed up when they get older. And I want to be able to see my grandkids and I want to be able to play with my grandkids. And I think for me that hits home really well.
It hits really close to home because that's really what it is. When I started it, a lot of it was, you know, like competing and stuff was fun. But a lot of it was I don't want to be—my dad passed away. My Dad had a heart attack. He was 52. I was 25. And so I think that is part of why I've been able to stay so consistent with my nutrition and with wanting and that drive and that fire with wanting to help people. Because I don't want that to happen to me. I don't want to die early.
You know, and I think a lot of people have that issue in. And so when someone comes in with that motivation, I think it's very, very powerful thing. And I think that those are the best clients.
OK. So you've got kind of this mental checklist. Somebody comes in, they're open to coaching, they have an emotional reason. Like, I want to do this for my kids. Let's say that that person doesn't come in your gym, that you're at Little League and you spot that person, you know, how do you start the conversation with them?
You know, it's tough. I think years ago I would talk about CrossFit a lot more. I was really like, I don't want to say pushing it on people, but I really wanted to tell everybody about it. And I don't think that was the right approach. I don't think that that resulted in people wanting to come to the gym. But it was almost like, no, no, no. That's crazy, that's too much. You know, and maybe I was just being a little bit, you know, too passionate about it.
But now I think, you know, when I'm at Little League games and I'm with coaches and I'm like, this guy needs to lose some weight. This guy needs to be working out. I wear my CrossFit Kinnick shirts. Everyone that I'm around kind of knows.
And, you know, you're making small talk and I bring up stuff like, hey, you know, do you work out or, do you have goals or, I'll bring up something about nutrition or I'll talk about a new program we have in the gym and I'll just kind of toss just something, a little bread crumb out there too to see if they are interested and you know, and then you're going to spend a good amount of time with them over the next few months and so just trying tp just throw stuff out there, and if they ask
questions, usually at least the questions about the gym, I try not to push too much and try to just give them the information they're looking for. And if they're wondering about classes or wondering about stuff or I can't do that, Jeremy. I remind them that we have a 92-year-old lady at the gym, I'm like, you definitely can do it.
You know, and that kind of stuff, you know, I try to keep it real simple for them, so it's not—we don't put up the wall, you know, so it's like, oh no, I'm not going to do that. And then they don't want to talk to me, you know?
Yeah. You know, you just reminded me of something back in late 2007, 2008 on the CrossFit message boards. The only real business topic was like, what's your elevator pitch? How do you meet somebody and sell them on the spot? Do you remember that stuff? And I think the best element—.
Oh, absolutely.
It's what you're saying, it's not come and do CrossFit, here's my card. It's will you be riding this elevator tomorrow?
Yeah, exactly. It is. I think that's effective.
So the people coming into your gym right now, like the best clients. They meet you in person, they meet you a Little League, or they meet you at church or they're meeting you in the community and then coming in, right? Give me an example of somebody who's joined recently that met you first and then came in and tried the gym because they leaned on that relationship of trust.
One that pops in my head that was somewhat recent was one of the dads on the soccer team, one of my son's soccer team. We're sitting watching soccer. I wasn't coaching or anything, just sitting there watching the practices, getting to talk to him. And my oldest son and his daughter were just running laps around the field, just kind of playing around, kicking the ball. And then we just talked a little bit about it, asked what we do, and oh , CrossFit, is that your gym or do you go there?
And oh no, that's our gym. Oh that's cool. And just kind of one thing led to another and we built that relationship. And I think that by not saying come to my gym, work out, like just building the relationship, he trusted us and we were friends and saw that I was a normal person, not a weird CrossFit ter. And you know, like ohm you're a normal guy. OK, that's cool. Cause I think sometimes we get a little bit crazy as, as CrossFitters and as owners and we're just like over the top.
And I think that just, you know, we built that relationship and so he was comfortable. We're starting up a 5-a.m. class, you know. And it was new, the class was new and so he came in and tried it out , and he's been here since and he's doing great. And I think that's a recent one that's a pretty cool story.
Yeah. I have the exact same story but with hockey, because I'm in Canada. So do you think, you know, you and I, we both like to bring clients in by getting out in the community and meeting people and having a relationship first. Do you think you've like matured to that point, or have you learned a lesson that said, I don't want people coming in off Facebook ads?
I think a little bit of both. I think that I've definitely matured in the way I approached that. And I think just as a person, I'm getting better at building relationships, friendships, and I've slowed down enough and not focusing on myself so much as an athlete. I'm now more and more, not that I wasn't before, but more and more I'm kind of seeking that out, building relationships with people that I'm meeting. And I don't know that—I don't want a bunch of people coming in at once.
I don't want a ton of people just flooding in the gate, the door, and just beating our door down. I don't think that that is the right thing to do. And even though I think that we want that because, and maybe when we're newer, we want that because we want to have a full gym, but you just can't take care of people in the right way. You know, you can't build the relationships in the gym and, you know, it's just too much. You know, it's just like turning the fire hydrant.
People just fall off too easily. And then they're like, what happened to that one guy? I dunno, what was his name again? And he's just gone, you know, because—and that doesn't do anybody any good. It doesn't do them any good. Now they have a bad experience, and it doesn't do you any good because now you have one less member. I think it's much better just, you know—or when our members bring people in, same idea. It's like there's a relationship.
They trust their friends or they trust their spouse or they trust their coworker and then they go, yeah, my coworker loves this gym. There's obviously a reason for that. And they trust the coworker , so then now they trust us. The more and more, and I do think I'm getting older, you know, it's realizing what's important and how to be valuable, you know, and it's all about relationships. It really is.
OK.
Speaking of older, Chris, next year I'm in the 40 to 44 age group.
Well, you might beat me out, then.
I'm coming for the 40-year-olds. I'm really excited about that.
That's awesome. It's awesome. Except that like your whole cohort moves up, and you are in one of the most competitive age groups in the world.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
You know, your age group is crazy.
Insane. Yeah , we just got Josh bridges in the 35, you know? I'm like, really? Josh? Come on, man. And there's a big list, you know. But then you move up to the 40 and 44 and you're like, hey Neil, Neil Maddox. How are you doing up there buddy? You know, it's fun. I just love it, dude. You know what I love most about it, and know this isn't really what w e're talking about, but I love competing. I love the CrossFit community. I really, really do.
I love the Open, even though it's stressful, and I love people coming together and cheering each other on, and you know, your competitor next to you, you're cheering them on if you finish before them and if they f inished before you, t hey're cheering you on. Even though it's like you shouldn't do that because there's points involved and you're trying to win, but you do it because that's just what we do. That's what CrossFit does, and that's something that we haven't lost as a community.
We have not lost that aspect of people cheer each other on. That's happened since the beginning and I don't think we'll lose that. I really don't.
That's awesome. All right, so in the spirit of cheering people on, Jeremy, let's wrap up with this. If you were talking to an affiliate owner, they're three years in, they've just finished their first lease and they're like, oh man, I can't keep doing this. What would you tell them?
Well, I think that they need to take a look at why they started. You know, why did they open the gym? Was it because it's cool and everyone else was doing it? Like what was the reason, right? And I think that the focus needs to, if it's not there, it needs to be shifted to helping our members, right? Helping people get in shape, helping people learn how to eat right and live healthy lives and have fun.
And I think that if the focus is put on that, and I think this is something that you've said and I was relaying this to our training staff, if you're feeling burned out, if you're not feeling very motivated at all, start focusing more on making other people happy, start focusing more on helping people, and knowing that that next class that you teach or that you coach, or the next person that you meet and that comes in the gym, that you can change their life and you can have an impact on not just
their life, but if they have a family, you can have an impact on their life. And if we're teaching them how to eat right or teaching them how to exercise and be healthy, then that's gonna be passed onto their kids and there's like this bigger purpose for doing this. And it's not about oh, you taught that person how to air squat, you know. Or I'm bummed out, I'm burned out, because I'm working too much. Well then you need to start looking at you know, why did I start?
And if that doesn't fire you up, if that doesn't get you excited, helping people and making people better, then it's probably not the right thing to do. I mean, I don't know—if you don't like helping people, that's what we're here for. That's what CrossFit gyms are for at the end of the day. And so I think looking back at why you started doing this and kind of re- evaluating that.
Last question. When was the last time a member hugged you?
Every single class.
Perfect.
We hug around here. So yeah, every single class. I had a member come in this morning and she was frustrated about her—happened . She was warming up, and she comes in with tears in her eyes and I was able to tell her, you know, give her some instruction and give her some things to work on and she walked out happy. I got a big hug for that. So that was cool.
That's awesome. You know I was really bad at that until I met Greg and started going to HQ, and I was amazed at how much time he would invest every day in just walking around and hugging people and shaking their hands and taking an interest in what they said.
Something that I learned from Greg, Coach Glassman, was when I first met him, I think I him once, and I was so amazed—and you probably had this experience, too. I was so amazed that the next time I met him, he remembered me.
Yeah.
And I'm like, how did this guy remember me 10 years later. And that was something that I really took to heart with my gym was when someone would come back in, hey, Jeremy, you remember me? I'm like, of course I remember. I'm so glad you're back. You know, just making people feel important. And that was a really—I think he's amazing at and I think it's good to be able to do that, you know?
Yeah, well, the first time I met him, I was with Anthony Bainbridge and he sits down, he says, Anthony, how's your wife's mother doing? Is she feeling better? And Anthony like stuttered, you know. Oh good, good, good. So Greg leaves and he turns to me and he says, I haven't talked to him in four years. You know, and that's when I started to get the impression like, this guy might just be a genius. But anyway, Jeremy, I also think that you're a genius.
I think that you're a genius in building community, in building a long-term followership and in parlaying your message to your members and the rest of the CrossFit community. I think probably there are people out there like me who have looked to you and maybe stuck with CrossFit because hey, if that guy's involved, this is a good thing. So thank you for everything that you've done as a leader, and thanks for sharing all this wisdom with our listeners.
Well, I appreciate you having me on here, Chris, and I appreciate all those kinds of words, and I think that sometimes I think the more that we do this and the more that we learn we start realizing that we don't know anything. And you're saying that and I'm taking it and I really appreciate you saying that. Cause some days I don't feel like I know anything and I feel like I'm like, man, I gotta figure out what I'm doing. I feel like I'm just lost , you know.
And I think it's good to hear those things. So I really appreciate you saying that.
Sure thing, man.