Hey, folks, welcome back to another episode of the Ruby Rogues podcast. This week, on our panel, we have Valentino Stole Hey Now, I'm Charles Maxwood from Top Endevs, and we also have a yush A yush Nuwatya. I always feel weird, like I'm saying it wrong. No, you're right, absolutely right. So yeah, so we were getting on. We didn't have a guest this week. I keep inviting people and then for whatever reason, they don't get on our calendar. So if you if you have
a topic you want to talk about, let us know. But yeah, Ayush is new to the show and we were chatting, and you know, next week we're going to talk with him about Bridgetown. But uh, I thought, you know what, let's get to know him a little bit and kind of get his background on things. So Ayush, I'm kind of curious.
I don't know exactly where to start. I like the idea of starting how you got into Ruby, but you were doing other stuff before Ruby, So maybe we start with how you got into programming and then kind of move along from there. Yeah, for sure, I think it started the beginning. I came through a fairly traditional route. I think I studied computer science at university, although I'd like to say that course doesn't count because it was
quite shit. Date. Should you go to college to become a programmer, Probably not, But as I grew up in India, moved to the UK at London for university, and despite not learning maybe a whole lot about actual practical industry, programming at university did give me the degree that I needed to get a work visa. Hear, so it oppened that regard, but I
mean it was the course was just so like basic. They thought they just start Java, and it was like I had no idea how to run code outside of Eclipse, like when Eclipse was the more popular ID over Intelligence or whatever. I honestly like, I didn't know how to write a unit test, completely clueless about what to do if I didn't have Eclipse, and it was Yeah. When I got my first job, I was like, Okay,
the real world's fairly different. So I have to ask, first of all, because I did Java, and now when I talk to people who are going to college, they're usually using Python. So how long ago was this? Like? Are you an old guy like me? Are you just got into an old guy program? I think a younger guy that got into an old guy program. I was at university twenty eleven twenty fourteen, so not that long ago, right, So you yeah, you were in because
I went. Now I'm really going to date myself. I started in nineteen ninety nineteen ninety eight, and I went for a couple of semesters and I went on a mission for my church for two years, and then when I came back, I graduated in two thousand and six. I came back and started back in school in two thousand and one, so not terribly too far apart, but yeah, okay, yeah, I ended up getting a job straight out of university, which was nothing short of a minor miracle, because
it's so hot to get a work viz I hear in the UK. Oh really, but yeah, it's ridiculous. I just got super lucky. I got a job at this company called Akqa, which is like an agency, and they were just starting this graduate program. So that was the first Gohart, just me and another girl that were the first ever graduates in this graduate program. That allowed me to kind of do a lot of many different things
in the first year. So I kind of did android development, I did DevOps, I did like software engineering and all that kind of stuff and ended up in this like hybrid iOS and Android role because my final year project, when dissertation project at university was an Android app. So I kind of ended up in mobile just through that, and I was iPhone user Apple fan at the time, and so obviously I didn't really want to do Android development.
Is just that I had to do at university. So I kind of branched into iOS and ended up with this unique skill set where I could do both, So the company put me to work at both, and yeah, I worked there for a while. Then just obviously I gravitated towards iOS because a bigger Apple fan than an Android fan. I still despise Android. It's just so bad for my blood pressure every time I have to go and write any
Android good. So then I ended up getting another job at a company called transfer Wise now known as Wise, and I was exclusively in an iOS developer there. Managed to shake off my Android roots, thankfully. Yeah, I
was. I was doing objective cy for the first couple of years at Akqua because I was working on some legacy apps and Swift was still pretty new, and the interrupt between objectivecy and Swift was still liberty fee, so we as a company didn't want to take a risk on it with with damn good reason. I completely agreed with that decision. But when I moved over to transfer Wise, they had just done like a significant overhaul of the app a few
months before I joined, and it was all Swift. So I got right Swift for a couple of years in like a production setting there, which was quite nice ish. Yeah, I remember when they made that switch. I was co hosting the I Freak Show at the time, and so I was talking about it. I wasn't actually writing anything in it, but it was definitely an interesting time period to be working in that and seeing some of the transitions that go on with some of that stuff. Yeah, it was.
I think it was a much needed overhaul. I am probably one of the rare breed that actually liked objective cy I quite it was a bit of a both sure, but it felt it had a lot of a similarly toss to
Ruby in terms of like meta programming and things like that. And I think one of the reasons that I was kind of I moved away from mobile development one of many reasons, but one of them was that Swift was becoming like what I perceived to be the javaification of Swift, where I felt I just felt that the team were kind of chasing like quote unquote academic perfection from the language rather than building features that were actually useful and all, Like the dynamic,
advanced stuff that you got with objective Cy, They're kind of making an effort to remove that from Swift, and I just wasn't a fan of that direction at all. Interesting, So at what point did you find and move over to Ruby, I'm curious. So it was just before the pandemic.
So I when I joined Transferises twenty seventeen, I actually knew that I would leave in exactly two years, because you need five years on a work visa in the UK to get residency, and while you're on a work visa, you your visa is tied to your employer, so you can't quit without getting kicked out of the country basically. So I was just waiting for that like residency period to quind of qualify for residency, apply for it, and then
and then quit. Really, so it's summer twenty nineteen that I quit Transferise, and I was like, I'm going to take a few months off here because I'm burnt out as hell and any time off. So take a few months off, and I'm like, you know, I just really don't fancy mobile development anymore. As getting quite fair up a fit. I also kind of get quite a lot of my motivation from product development. I don't get it from like technical problems. I like, I like building products. I
don't really care for that. I don't care that much for like interesting technical problems. And it's quite hard to build products when all you can do is build a mobile app, Like if you have no service side skills at all, there's not a lot you can do it just an app, right, So I was finding that quite limiting in what I wanted to build or have
the skill set to build. So I was like, yeah, I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna move to web because in the web world, if I can build it, I can deploy it and release it and sell it. In the mobile world, I need Apple to let me sell it, no matter how cheaper it might be. Like Apple might just say, like I might invest months into something and then Apple could just turn around and say, yeah, we're not going to prove that app. So I just
didn't like that kind of aspect of it either. So I'd kind of been exposed to Ruby a fair amount just while working on OOS, because a lot of the infrastructure around iOS was in Ruby. Like until Swift got its native package manager, the most popular dependency in package manager in the iOS world was called ocpods, which is written in Ruby. Yeah, it's written in Ruby, which is yeah. Yeah, And there's a we had those guys on I freaks and it was kind of funny because yeah, I was nerding out
about Ruby with them and yeah exactly. So like those like other bits, like there's a c I tool called fast Lane which just makes it quite easy to build like a CI pipeline for io s and stuff that didn't he No, it's Felix Cross. Oh, Felix Okay, Yeah, at least it was initially him fair Leish. I was initially him. It might be because I think it was bought by Twitter and then Google and then it changed hands a few times. I don't know where it ended mixed up with something else.
Yeah, so that that wasn't Ruby as well. So I'd kind of done a bit of Ruby just because I had to deal with that stuff in the iOS world, and I quite I quite like the language. I liked like the raels ethos and stuff. So I just bought the reel s tutorial by Michael Hartle and that that's basically a rite of passages in it. You're allowed to be a reels developer if you haven't worked through that book. So I've never gone through the book. How dare you? I'm kidding. I
remember when he wrote the book. I've been on that long fair enough, So yeah, I just I worked through that book. I built a product. I built a very simple blogging blogging app called Chapter twenty four, which I recently decommissioned. Actually need to write about that, I think, because a lot of people talk about the successes, but they don't really talk about things that didn't quite work. So I want to write a blog about why
I built it and then why I decommissioned it. But yeah, I kind of just on the back of that, I kind of got into freelancing because somehow I ended up on the Bridgetown core team around that time as well. So this is all through twenty twenty that I was retraining as a Ruby developer, building Chapter twenty four and then a back half of twenty twenty, I ended up on the Bridgetown Core team, which I think is probably best to get into next week. And then just through sheer dumb luck, ended up
with freelancer. I knew I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to freelance, but just through the sheer dumb luck of Twitter, ended up getting a contract. And as you know with the like in the Ruby world or any tech world like, the hardest thing with freelancing is getting the start. So once I had that first contract, which I worked with those guys for quite a while, I think it is over a year that I worked with
them, and then it then it just snowball from there. Really, I wrote the book, took a few months off, wrote the book, and then it's been For that I think changed the trajectory of my career fairly significantly when Yeah, I released The Rails on hot Wire codex. Because now I just tend to find work. It's become so much easier because I can just point to this, the ridiculous brick of a book that I've written, and then people are like, oh, would you like to work with us?
And that's a very privileged position to be and I'm incredibly grateful to be in that position. But yeah, that kind of brings us to where we are now. Nice. So are you finding work. I'm just curious and I'm just going to ask whatever questions I want. A lot of times I'm kind of steering the conversation a little bit, you know, because I think that people are going to want to know a specific thing, or you know, learn a specific thing, or I think it'll be helpful even if somebody doesn't
think to ask it. I'm just going to ask what I want because I'm curious how much work comes in off of the rails and hot wire codex, because it's sounds like you kind of at least implied that that brings you some
of the freelance work. Yeah, a fair amount. So like my previous client I worked with for about fifteen months, and I had posted on a number of forums at the time because as some work I had lined up fell through and I was quite desperate for work at the time, and I posted a number of forums saying I've written this book, and I've built this, that and the other thing. And I signed that contract without ever having a call with the client. They just saw my work and they're like, oh,
yeah, can you start Monday. Here's the contract. And I was with them for like fifteen months or so. And then earlier this year, in about March, I published an update to my book for Strata and Rael seven point one, and I sent out a mailing blast to my mailing list for the book and I said at the end, by the way, I'm looking for some freelance work. My contract just ended. If you have anything,
to get in touch. And I got an email back from someone who was working with this startup saying, Oh, we're looking for rails developers. This is a company I'm working with. It you interested. I was like, yeah, and I've been. I've been working with this startup since since March, and that was just through a lead from someone who bought my book. And since then, I've had two or three emails from other people who've discovered me through my book asking if I was available, and I've had to
say no because I'm fully booked on this contract. So it's it's always nice to kind of have leads that I kind of have to say no to at this point, but hopefully I can work with in the future at some point. Yeah, I've I've had similar experiences, not with the I did write
a book, but it was it was how to find a job. I've had that with screencast series and with the podcast where yeah, I just you know, I just mentioned on the show or have people come to me out of the blue, and yeah, it's it's been really interesting to see how
that all works out. So yeah, I like, I like the idea of writing a book and demonstrating your technical expertise and having people recognize that and then you know, come along and say, oh, I'm I'm interested in what you can do, and yeah, exactly, I think it's the best way to kind of showcase your skills, to just build something. Then it's all in the public domain and it kind of also acts as an asset.
So like, I mean, I don't I don't make a whole lot of money of the book sales, but it's a nice like cream at the end of the month that kind of adds on top of my freelance income. And yeah, it's just a great way to generate leads and stuff. So like, I always kind of planned that with my freelancing career, I would split my time between client work and my own projects. And that's why I have the reels and not why I could. That's why I have Scattergun dot Email,
which is another SaaS product that I that I run. It's temporarily on pause. I really need to invest some time to bring it back. But yeah, that's why I have those things because those are the things that kind of I have complete control over. I don't need to make compromises to anyone, and it's very fulfilling to have that kind of stuff as well. I'm curious. I never knew you wrote a book. First of all. Awesome, right, I love it. I have so many questions. Yeah,
go for it. Yeah, the book israelsonhot Wire Codex dot Com. Yeah, it's really cool. So, like, what what got you to build this specifically? Just like your mobile experience tran transitioning to rails, Like yeah, kind of. So when I was working on my first contract as a freelancer, I had a pretty steep learning of at the start because it was the first production rails app that I was kind of working on, uh for like for someone else. The only before that I'd only kind of worked on
my own projects. So I realized that that like I'd done the rail tutorial by Michael Hartle and I found that it was a great Uh, it was great for the basics, but like that book, you only create two models by the end of the book. So it's like, because it focuses so much on the basics, it's not representative of a production rails app. And
I found that next step was quite hard for me to take. So while I was on that first contract, and the idea just kind of popped into my head that there's loads of books that teach you how to make rails apps, loads of books that teach you how to make native apps. I've kind of got this unique blend of experience of all three where I've specialized in all
three at various points. Turbonative was kind of a fairly new thing because this was mid mid twenty This was mid twenty twenty one, so Turbo Native was only about six months old. I was. I was also aware of turbolinks Native, which had been around for a while. It was on my radar even when I was a mobile developer, and I had petitioned for its use a number of times to my teams when I was a mobile developer and basically been told to in no uncertain terms to shut up because it was hybrid,
and hybrid was a dirty word. So I thought, hang on, hang on, because I have to chime in on this because there is a dirty little secret, and that is is a lot of the apps that you use out there that are native apps, they pull in WebUI all over the place they do. And yeah, the other thing is that most of these fully
native apps are also completely useless offline. Like people kind of say offline access is a big thing that kind of banned around for fullyen but I'm like, yeah, you know, most apps have worked on useless offline, like they won't do anything well or they build in So the thing that I'm thinking is like the video apps, so like you're what Hulu or Netflix or whatever, the only the only on offline functionality they really have is download this before you
get on the airplane and that way you can watch it on your phone. Right, So it's very limited in scope on what it'll do. Yeah, once you're offline, Yeah exactly. But yeah, I thought, I thought, uh, yeah, here's a mad idea. I've only been working with rails for less than a here, but let's write a book on it. How hard could it be? Right? Yeah? How hard can it be? It? Depends on and his is like nine hundred pages. So yeah,
I mean it was I love it. I love that premise, Like building the neighborhood marketplace like Craigslist or something thing that can't be easy to do, right, No, it's not easy, but I kind of like I learned best by doing so. I definitely wanted to teach how to build a product, and I needed a product that had scope for many things. And I just thought a product marketplace I can just like any any kind of feature,
I can kind of bolt onto it in some way or another. So it was just a very good kind of premise to cover all the features and rails because covering all of the constituent frameworks like action, mailbox, active stories, all that, that was a non negotiable for me. I had to do all of them. So this was just a nice vehicle for that. And I mean too, you know, rails is like pushing the you know,
build your next business right with rails? Yeah yeah right, And like selling something is like what everybody wants to do, right, yeah, exactly, So I think this is great, Like I love I'm curious, like, uh, you know, what what kind of design decisions do you make in the book for like the various things like do you choose to build your own authentication authorization? Uh? You know, yeah, so I was it is your own authentication authorization. I've kind of put that front and sent in
the marketing materials as well. And again, I just wanted to teach how to build as much as possible. And I was only pulling in gems for very specific, very difficult problems because I find a lot of tutorials they kind of just skirt around the difficult problems. We're pulling in a gem and like like authentic, just just just use device and then it becomes a tutorials. That's what the heart of book does, is it pulls in device and then
just moves on. Now it doesn't it teaches you. It teaches you your authentic, your own authentication. Yeah I need to be wrong about that. But a lot of tutorials they they just say, oh, just pull in this gem, pull in that gem for like device, pundit whatever, and
they don't teach like the concepts. And in freelancing, I've just found that those because those concepts are not that widely thought, they're not applied very well, and people don't think about do I actually need a gem for this, and they just pull in a gem just because it's the thing that they always do, even if it's a very simple authorization premise that the product has,
like oh it's authorization, we need pundit for that. So I was like, no, let's just build everything from scrat So like the only things I've used gems for, like things like paginations, I've got Paigey in there. I've got Sidekick obviously for background jobs. So yeah, just like very specific things. Actually, let me pull up the gem file right now. It's like, can tell you which are the only third party gems that I've pulled
in here? Uh so credits doesn't count as third partys. Credits is now in rails, So I've got premailer rails, which is to inline your styles before action mailer blasts something out, so that kind of holds up styling on all the different mail clans. Got something called io country codes, which just makes it drop down easier for like a country drop down easier because it just
kind of maps like a user friendly country name to the io code. Uh page for pagination s a w S s DK for S three, geocoder for geocoding local time to just to show like your which is a JavaScript thing to show local time based on where the user is browser to detect which browser it is from, uh, the user agent and email reply pausa from which is the GitHub gem to kind of you know, when you click reply on and email clients will kind of just put a lot of gunk in at the bottom.
This kind of just makes it a bit easier to deal with which in action mailbox I needed. And apart from the sidekick and sidekit grown, yeah, that's it. Everything else is from scratch. So I have to ask because I mean, I'm working for a client right now that uses I mean
you mentioned uh device pundit. I think they're using rollify right, and some of these ideas like rollify right as far as just the fundamental adding and you know, tracking if somebody has a role and if that role attaches to some other entity in your system, right, that seems relatively simple, punt. It seems like it does a whole bunch of stuff, And sometimes I feel like it gets in my way, and sometimes I feel like it, you know, it just kind of cleanly solves a problem. So how do you
decide if something is in or out? And how do you decide if something is going to be worth the trouble of figuring out because some of these libraries have a learning curve and yeah, yeah, anyway, I'm rambling. But no, it's tricky. It's a hard question, and I don't have a
clear answer because the best thing I can say is just experience. So when I was in my first job at a university, I had a really good mentor, so the ACELA and iOS developer back then, and I had a really good mentor and he kind of ingrained this deep dislike and disdain for dependencies in my brain. So and that has stuck with me, and it's something I'm actually I quite like. So I don't want to change it because I
like that fact about myself. So I will not pull in a gem until I'm like really pushed against the wall and like I'm like, okay, now I really can't do this myself. I really shouldn't do this myself. Then I will pull in a dependency for it. Other than that, like I mean, I'll just write it myself, Like I don't know, just think some time. I mean, isn't it more effort and more trouble? It
is, but it's also a lot more customizable and reusable. So like, so once I've done something like I do my own authentication, So once I have my authentication system, that code is reusable, so I don't extract it into the library. But in every project, I just copy paste out the
relevant stuff and then customize it and customize it as the project needs. And yeah, I mean it may sound like like sacrilege, but it's it is a different mindset when you're kind of wrapping up some code as a black box library, because then it's kind of like its own entity and you need like you need kind of ports to kind of interact with it. But if it's just code that lives as part of your application, you don't need to package
it up in any way. You don't need to think about like, oh, what if the user wants to customize this that or the other thing is you just change the code right because it's within your application. So I'm a big fan. Yeah, I'm a big fan of just writing reusable code in that way, and I do it in like it helps my client work is all. Very often I'll pull things out of my own projects and put them into client project just because I've solved this problem, why do I need to
solve it again? So like now I have like an authorization system that I built for the for the book, and I'll just build a similar system for any other project. So like for me personally, I only need to build it once and then I just need to tweak it to fit any other project. And for me, that's a lot less risky than pulling in a dependency that I don't control. Yeah, I'm I'm going to chime in on this
a little bit. So the the last one that I pulled in that I kind of had this with was actually written by Dave Kimura's action Off jem and right, I needed to tweak the layout, and I, you know, I want to add a user profile, which I just did by adding another
model to my system. But as I got into that just a little bit more here and there, what I found was that because I was thinking, hey, I'm a little bit gun shy about Hey, this is a security system on my app, right, and since I'm not a security expert, I don't know if I necessarily want to be the one writing this and responsible
for it. But at the same time, you go look at action off and it's relatively simple, right, and so it's definitely something that I could build myself if I wanted to. It's just that he has a whole bunch of other people looking at it and solving some of the problems that I might cause myself, and he spent a lot more time looking into the issues that are there. And so that's one reason why I'm sitting there going, maybe
I should, you know, use somebody else's system. The other thing though, is that, yeah, then it's okay, I've got to tweak the layouts. So I've got to tweak this, I've got to tweak that. And so there's the learning curve of learning how to use the gem that for my time might take up just as much time as writing it myself. And I guess I don't actually know that, and I don't know how you know that, But those are the trade offs that I'm looking at, Right,
is am I going to cause a problem if I write it myself? Or am I going to leave something open that I shouldn't? And then the other thing is is, yeah, you know, for my time, right, if I drop pundit in or you know, rollify or something else, you know, how do I do that. And then the last thing is is sometimes I pull in these gems because I have a client that's using it and I need to understand it and so I can go play with it over here
in my own little sandbox. Yeah, exactly, those those trade offs are They're all really good questions to ask, and it's there's no like straightforward answer to any of that. It just comes down to like judgment. So actually, let me read out a quote that I've put in the in the coda of my book. It's a quote from Nate Hopkins. So yeah, yeah, he tweeted this a while ago. Now. He says every additional gem dependency adds friction to upgrading rails. Be sure to apply a healthy dose of
scrutiny to all gems before including them in your projects. You also increase the surface area of several risks unexpected changes to native behavior, conflicts between gems, degraded performance, weekend security, and these risks. These risks compound as you drift further from the latest framework release. So I thought that was just a good way of looking at it. It just depends on, yes, like
the use case or what you're trading off against. And I just find that very often you can accomplish quite a lot with just good object oriented programming, like authorization is one of those things where with these gems like pundit and I think can can, can and action policy and that the good gems, but I just find that they go too far into like meta programming, when all you need is good object oriented programming. And I think the absolute game changer
has been something quite simple, which is actors support current attributes. Just the fact that you can get current dot user now from anywhere in the inner app. Earlier it was you probably have a current underscore user method that's only available in your controllers. If you're trying to do like authorization stuff in your model, just getting hold of the current user might might be a little tricky, which is why you had like metaprogramming techniques, which gems like pundit of kind
of popularized. But now that you can get you use a quite easily from anywhere. It's a fairly simple thing. But I think it's also made a huge difference to how how much you can simplify things like authorization. Yep.
So I guess the other question is do you then favor gems like so you know, back to authorization or authentication for a minute, right, do you favor things like maybe authentication zero, where instead of it using an engine like device or action off, does you just do a rails generate and it drops the code, right, It generates all the code into your thing, into your app, right, And then I mean, if you pull the gem out, it's still gonna work because it really all it did was just effectively
write that code for you. Yeah, exactly. So the client I'm working with at the moment, we've used authentication zero. It was done before I started, so I didn't have any influence on that, and it's the first time I've used authentication zero actually, and I recommend it wholeheartedly to anyone. It's an approach that I affletely love. Because the codes all in your app,
you can modify it as you choose to. Like, we've actually had to modify the authentication system a little bit because one of the requirements were we needed Google login, but we also like if someone had signed up using email and password and then they tried to sign and with Google, we wanted them to kind of get into the same account, Like we didn't want Google signing to create a new account, and that was also some custom logic that we had to do, but because all the code lived in our app, it
was fairly easy to do. We didn't need to jump through any hoops. All I did was modify a controller and done like that. Like the amount of times I try to wrangle device to do something I wanted slightly custom and felt like hitting my head against the wall. I mean, this is much preferable to me. Yeah, that's that. That in my experience, is
where I run into things. Yeah, it's like, oh, I'm deviating from how device thinks about the world, and so you know, I feel like I've got my arms stuck in the gears of this machine and I can't quite pull it out in order to Yeah, what about stuff like so you said the Google logins, you do you just reach for omniof for that or yeah, right now omnioth Yeah, Like that's again, it's a it's it's
a difficult, small surface area problem. So that's the kind of thing where I would reach for a gem, because yeah, like gems are kind of cover quite a large surface area, and then your app kind of becomes heavily dependent on the Let's see, like if you build an app with device. You're never ever ripping device out of there. It's there for life. It's
like for the lifetime of the app. Right. I will only pull in gems like that when I'm like absolutely one hundred percent show and I'm really really thought it through and I'm like, this is the only way it's a worthy risk, And then I'll pull in a gem that my app like literally will fall apart without. Other than that, I like small service area gems. Cool, Valentino, I hijacked your higher level question. I'm sorry, No,
it's all good. I mean, it's an important, important discussion to make any time you're introducing the dependency because it is just like a snowball effect, you know, if you ever want to remove it, it's a pain. Yeah. Change, Well, the last couple of contracts I've worked, we've worked on upgrading rails and that is always painful, and it's always the dependency gems that you get, which was the other point that I usually made. Yeah, it's it's it's tricky. It's one of those things I think
you get better at with experience. Like just my kind of take on it. It's I'm not against dependencies. I'm definitely not one for like not invented here syndrome or anything like that. But I'm also fairly skeptical of dependencies, and I just think like two or three times before I pull anything. And so it's not like I'm against I just give it a lot of thought before I pull in a gem. Right, did you have any follow on to
this, Valentino? I did. I mean I'm often torn on like the dependency like hell that people reference, Like there are a lot of like great well built gems that like you can just throw in and trust that are going to work long term, and so it's like it's hard to know what those are if you're not familiar with them. Yeah, and so I think it's a good rule of thumb to just like not introduce it if you don't have to. But at the same time, it's like whatever you build, you're
going to have to maintain. So like whether you're not maintaining it or somebody else isn't maintaining it, like, does it matter. Yeah, it's true. And I think also if you're pulling in like a gem that's not like super popular or something like that, I think it's also important to just have
a high level understanding of what the gem does. So, like if I'm pulling in a GEM where I'm not completely clear about how it solves the problem that I want to solve, and if it's not like super popular or anything like that, I'll always dive into the source code and try to understand it, and if I can understand and are happy with it, I'll pull it in. Or otherwise I might just take inspiration from their approach and write it myself. Like quite recently, for the client I'm working with, we we
needed to have like some kind of d bounds logic inside kick. So like if you try to queue up the same job with the same arguments like two or three times in quick succession, it should only it should only queue up once. So like if you try to queue up a job like ten times in the in two minutes, it only it only executes once. So I went looking for a plug in for this, and I found one, but I was I don't I firstly dove into the source code because it wasn't a
very popular jam, it was not something i'd heard before. It was it didn't have a very high star account or anything like that, and I was doing a bunch of stuff that I didn't quite understand it was running some a LUA script on Reddish and things like that, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not sure, not sure about this one. So I spent one day and just kind of took a little bit of inspiration from their approach and built out a super simple solution myself in like I don't three or four hours or
something. And now we own that solution, so we need to tweak it. We can. It lives in the lip folder of our own app. Other developers can just open that up, read it, understand it, and that's it, rather than hiding away in a gem that nobody understands. Yeah, there's a lot to be said there, right, Like, you know, you can still package it locally, like it is a separate project.
Yeah, like use packwork or you know, something like that, just to keep things separate in casey, you know, I feel like the most common use cases are well, like you know, we want other people to be able to contribute to it, right, and that's what the value of the gem brings. But you know, it's not guaranteed to do that. But I feel like if you just keep it abstract enough, like you know,
it solves most the cases in the long term. Yeah, but that's the trade off too, right, is if it's too abstract, then it loses utility, but if it's specific, it also loses utility. So you've kind of got to find that sweet spot too. I think a good roos like that's how are you going? I was gonna transition to something different? Guess I'll just I'll just wrap up this kind of I think a good rule of time is like, could I build this myself in four to six hours?
If you could, it's probably building it yourself. If it's gonna if it's gonna take longer than then the gem probably makes a lot more sense. Yep, that's a good rule of thumb. Uh. Yeah, I was gonna transition like because you know, you tackle hot wire you know specifically here, uh, and you dive deep into turbo natives and and that whole aspect of you know, mobile application development if you want to call it that for real,
you know, how is your experience like setting that up? Like what do you think of the turbo native framework as somebody who previously worked in the you know, mobile on both sides realms? You know, how does the developer experience like equate in in rails and interbo native hurt someone's feelings answering this, No, I don't think so. Actually I quite enjoyed it, to be honest. I think it's it's a great approach just because it's kind of like, uh, a little bit in this world, a little bit in
that world. So like your navigation and stuff is fully native, so you're not you're not fighting against the platform you're on. So you're still writing Swift, you're still Writingcotland. There's there's no there's no escaping that. It's just instead of writing the content of the screen using native views, you render some HTM on CSS instead, and you kind of and both iOS and Android have have native APIs to communicate to and from JavaScript, so that that's what Strata
does. It just kind of uses those native APIs, gives you an abstraction layer to send messages back forth from your web app to the native code, so you can like render fully native components around your web views. So it kind of just upsto the fidelity a little bit. And let's say you have like one screen while your app, where apps users spend most of the time, you can always kind of build that one screen fully natively and then leave the rest to be web views. So as an approach, I really like
it. The developer experience is obviously it's not without its challenges because you're kind of working in JavaScript as well, so debugging JavaScript and mobile can be a bit painful at times. So there is that, But then you're always going to have some friction with this kind of approach. But on the whole, I think the amount of time and money you save is huge. And I gave a talk at some conferences last year called native apps are dead? Long
Live native apps? I think the friendly are we? Uh? I think friendly RB have put a YouTube video out of this talk, and that was the whole premise of the talk is that here's a really great way to build hybrid apps without kind of fighting against the platform, still having access to all the native features and just like uh, leaning on the web to reduce your work. Really so I'm I'm curious, like what does a what does a
communication layer look like for the JavaScript to native like aspect of it? Like let's say you wanted to, like, you know, render a native like camera component or something like that, right, Like how does that like translate to like the website. So that's where where strata comes in so you'll have to write some native code to accomplish that. So like for the way Strata works is it's a it's a subset of stimulus, so it's actually subclasses a
stimulus controller to another class called bridge component. So that's kind of like the main centerpiece of Strata. So you would subclass bridge component on the web and you'd kind of write some logic for whatever camera thing that you want to do, and then when that component connects to the dorm, it will send a message with whatever you've defined in that in that component to your native code.
And then you have to have like a counterpart components. If you have a camera component on the web, you have to have a camera component in native in the native apps as well, which is like a fully native Swift or a Cottland class. So that class will receive the message that your web app has sent and then that can do whatever native thing it needs to do to
make whatever you want happen. And then to go back to go backwards again, like you would send a message to the web app to like kind of click an element or or hid an element or something like that in the WebView. So that that way you can have like a you can have like a fully in native button that's just a proxy for like a web element, so you can have like in your navigation bar, you can have like a login button that's fully native, but all it's doing actually under the hood is clicking
a hidden log in link on your web view. I see, I mean it sounds. It sounds very similar to React Native in the bridging way. I don't know a whole lot about React Native, but I think it's just a different philosophy. Where React Native you're writing JavaScript, but the views that are rendered are all fully native views. With Devonative, you're rendering web content for the most fun I say, yeah, it's a different bridge. It
does use the JavaScript core bridge on iOS. Yeah, but the way it communicates with your app because it's a web app is different from how it communicates with a turbative apps or not a terminator React native app because the React native app of the logic is running on your phone using JavaScript and then interacting with the native views, and so it is a little different. I can see how that would make for a better experience to run native from a developer standpoint.
I don't know from a user standpoint, but dependent on the app. Yeah, I think, I like, with any technology, can you can build good apps so that you can build bad apps with this? I mean, I've been using Hey for email pretty much ever since it came out, and I'm perfectly happy with their app, and their app is probably one of the flag bearers for termor native. But yeah, it's not. It's not without its problems, and it can be a lot to deal with sometimes.
So like, actually, when I released the update to my book, I announced as part of that update that the second edition, which will which I'll probably start working on next year, so it's still a little ways away. I'm going to remove all the native stuff from it. It's going to be PWA's all the way, just because they run Yeah, yeah hopefully, but no, the I like that very much, So okay, just making sure
yeah monopolease right, Well, just just to throw it in. Within the next week or so, we have an episode coming out from Bruce Lawson and he talks about the open Web initiatives and how a lot of the yeah PWA stuff doesn't work on Apple and why and yeah, he he goes after pretty hard. Anyway. Yeah, Apple's not been covering themselves in in glory recently, so yeah, yeah, we'd love to see what happens there. But yeah, my reasoning for it is for removing the native stuff is that I've
got both my feet and the web world. I haven't worked on a production Android code based since twenty seventeen, and a production Alos code based in twenty nine teen, and it's just getting too difficult for one person to maintain all this stuff, especially in an educational resource where I kind of need to know my shit a little bit. It's it's too stressful and too exhausting. And PWA is when they work Big Asterisk there are pretty damn good, So I'm
just going to focus on those instead. Right now, RAILS eight is supposed to be focused on making it work. It is. Yeah, They're supposed to be a new sub framework called action Notifier as well in RAILS eight, which is going to be like web based push notifications. So yeah, with all that stuff, I just feel that I don't need to have a native section anymore. And like anyone who buys the book at any point will always have access to this first edition with the native stuff, so it will always
live on if anyone wants. Like, the basics are never going to change, right, The basics of demnative and strata are never going to change. That's all I cover in the book. So hopefully it will still have value to people. But yeah, like it can be a bit much for one person to try and do all three. So are you targeting Rails eight then in the next edition? Yeah, I will, Yeah, it's it's it's gonna be. It's gonna be a paid upgrade. For that reason, I
probably won't start working on it until after Rails eight is out. I haven't really got any plans for it or anything at the moment, so all I know is it'll target Rails eight, it'll target whatever new stuff comes out in the framework. It'll be p w as, and it'll be a paid upgrade. Cool. I just wanted to call it, I love your little written by a human tag. You're not. You're not the first person to compliment. I actually loved nice cheeky thing it was. Yeah, I enjoyed putting
that in there. That's funny. You have to specify these days. You got to. I mean, how else are you gonna know? Yeah? All right, well, anything else that we want to go after on this or look at Chuck, you you've hat you've had some time with my book? Do you have any I'm just blatantly asking for compliments, you have anything, So, to be perfectly honest, I started reading it. I mean, I have to say that this is like the busiest season of my life
ever with Mike. So my kids are finishing up school this week. I'm the vice chair of the Utah County Republican Party and we're trying to push candidates over the line. So I've been doing all of that and then I picked up a contract and the contract is for forty hours a week, like just to build forty hours a week, and so that's a ton of time.
So I haven't had a ton of time to get into it. I have gotten through the first bit, I have to say, like the deployment section, because you talked about deployment here and I just kind of skimmed it because I deploy using camal To SoC But you know, the setup was fairly good, and to be honest, some of this, some of this was stuff that you know was like, oh, I think I kind of knew that, right, and you kind of explicitly draw it out and point at it,
and so that was helpful as well. And so Yeah, so now I'm just getting into Okay, I want to build the app that I want to build. You know, I just barely started creating the iOS app part of it because I do what I want is and just to kind of give people an idea, what I'm doing is I'm walking through the book and I'm building the next version of top end devs. And so because effectively what I want to build is I keep telling people I want to build the Netflix of
programmers. Right. And it's a little different from kind of what Egghead or plural Site or some of the others do, where you know, it's like,
hey, go pick up this course. What I want to do is I want to have a number of series kind of like drifting Ruby or rails casts or something like that, but for different technologies, right, And so I would love to have an ongoing series on like hot Wire, have an ongoing series on just JavaScript fundamentals, right, and so every week you get a new video so that you can go pick up you know, basic DevOps some of the other frameworks that we cover on the network, so React or
Angular, right, and so you kind of kind of get the idea where I'm going. But then the other thing I'd like to do is create sort of longer form content that's more I guess creative than technical. And so then it's you know, we have documentaries or maybe an audio what do they call them, like an audio drama right where you have anyway. I'd love to have a podcast where people are actually acting right, and so you know, you get some comedy out of how a team runs right, and you have
just that guy right, that's anyway. So those kinds of things I kind of envision, and so you know, I want to build a platform that looks more like Netflix and less like like plural site, if that makes sense. And we still have the courses, right, so you could still go through a course and watch Okay, here's the fifteen minute video on how to set up, and here's the fifteen minute video on how to install, and here's a fifteen minute video on how to use, like the basics that you
probably would recognize out of anything else that's similar. And then here here's you know, we're going to show you how to get it all set up and use it. But I really want to give people the full breadth of what they can get right. And so if you are getting a bunch of programmers together you can sit down and you know, watch the thing, right, whether it's you know, a comedic take on a dev team or a documentary on how a thing came about, or you know, a technical walkthrough on
how to use beat or something like that. So anyway, and this kind of hits all of those places, right because you know, you kind of have the slide out menus and the you know, the kinds of interactions that you want from things, and I think you can get all of that out of stimulus and how wire and I've been doing stimulus for a few years now. But anyway, so I'm just walking through this. But yeah, so the turbative stuff really appeals to me because yeah, I don't see a reason
why you can't. You know, Okay, you want to watch the videos, so you pull up the app, you open the app, but the app just you know, mostly loads in you know, the videos and stuff, and then yeah, yeah, maybe I have to do some work on it for some of the native stuff, so that yeah, if you want to download it and watch it offline, yeah, the website doesn't really do that. But honestly, I think if you're gonna do something like that,
even through Turbonative. I think the best way is probably just using service workers. So you're going to be in the web world anyway, and your website will end up supporting it anyway. Right, Because another analogy I kind of make, and the talk I gave last year, is that turbonative app is in a way is like showing your website through a custom web browser. So, yeah, the app shell, all it is, in effect is is
a custom web browser. Right, the tabs and whatever is just you're like a little bit of custom chrome around what is effectively still your website, right, Yeah, And that's that's kind of the point is I can build it once, I can put this wrapper around it, and then yeah, for anything that I have to tweak because it's mobile or because your phone has a different concern than the web does, right, then I can figure those pieces
out. The other piece that I want to figure out, and I don't think it goes into it in your book, but I haven't seen any other examples of it either, is I'd love to get turbo native to make my app run on an Apple TV, right yep, and things like that,
and so you know, just figure those pieces out. But the promise of the book so far is hey, I can have all those things and so yeah, so some of the stuff I wind up muddling my way through because I haven't gotten to that part of the book yet, and some of the
stuff, yeah, I'm just looking forward to it. But the thing is is that, like I went and looked through some of the stimulus chapters, you know, I didn't like deeply read or try and implement because I'm working through the book as I read it, right, I'm not just reading it for the you wiz knowing this stuff. And it's been really really easy to follow along with anything that I've done out of the book, so that I
will definitely put forward. And it seems like you're offering up a lot of the stuff that I want to pick up that I just don't know yet. So when I go and look at the strata section or the stimulus section or right, it's like it's like I've been doing stimulus for a long time,
but I didn't know I could do that. Okay, you know, I'm curious, like if somebody's starting from like start to finish with the book, like how long until they have something like usable of an app that they can get a good feel for whether or not they like the framework or the direction is going kind of thing. So I mean, I start start with a bit an authentication system, so I think like chapter one is just setting up the reapers. Chapter two is text only intro to Hotwire. Chapter three you
start actually building something you build like users and sign ups. In chapter four is authentication, and then it kind of builds from there. So I think those chapter three and four do give you a good feel of the framework. But this book is not aim that people who don't know rails. So it's like I've kind of positioned it as a spiritual sequel to the Rail Tutorial by
Michael Hartle usual disclaimers of no affiliation and all that stuff. But so if you if you're starting my book, my understanding is you or you're already sold on rails, you already have a basic understanding of it. So my aim was never to kind of give people a quick feel of the framework, because if they come to my book, they already like else was kind of like my thinking behind it, and hot Wire is now kind of like a part of Rails as well. So while it's kind of front and center because it's
a new thing that people want to learn about. You could get a feel for it pretty quickly, because, like I said, chapter two is a text only intro to what it is, to all the bits of it. Yeah, I wanted to commit a chunk of time to it, like start to finish, Like about how long am I looking to like make it through the book and build an app kind of thing? Just you know, people out there too are curious. Honestly, I honestly couldn't tell you because it's
an absolute beast of a book. And yeah, it depends on like what your existing level of skill and knowledge is, because some things will take Like if you already know certain things, you can go through those a lot faster, and like you could just like copy paste go it out of the book and just kind of skim through it if you already know it. But if
you're newer to the framework than those things will take longer. Given the fact that I actually don't know, I haven't spoken to anyone who has done the book cover to cover, I couldn't tell you how much time it could take because I couldn't even estimate it, to be honest, I mean, it just depends on the person. Yeah, that's exactly right. Because the book is such a beast, It's so big and detailed. I don't think anyone
could just go into it and just do it cover to cover. I think a lot of people are dipping in and out of it, which is actually I think maybe a weakness of the book is that cover so much. But I did want to build. I did want to write like a comprehensive manual. So like another idea I'm kind of playing around with it in my head is breaking the book down into you like a series of blog posts and then
paywalling those. So like you have things like goraels and drifting Ruby for screen casts, but you don't have anything in the Ruby world for like text based education, which is like bite size text based rather than like Goreels is like bite size but video. Right, So I think maybe I could think about that bite size but text based and then just have a subscription on that and seed that by breaking the book down into individual blog posts so you can use
the new once product by DHH what's it called work book? Yeah, I did see that. I did see that. It was another idea that it's in the back of my mind. I will I'll definitely be downloading it when they release it and I'll see see what's what. You'll have to download it and post on the neighborhood marketplace. Yep. Anyway, I'll give you more feedback as I get through it, but I guess I'm pretty constrained. Once
my kids are out of school, it should be better. Well, it's good to hear the feedback you've got, and I hope you keep finding value in it. Yeah. Well, I mean one of the other things that I'm just going to point out that I'm excited about is, you know, building your own authentication and stuff, because, to be perfectly honest, I've never done that before. Oh okay, Yeah, I kind of got the impression people are afraid of it, which is another reason why I wanted to
write about it, is because it can be daunting. But I don't think it's something people should be afraid of necessarily. I think people are just afraid of doing something that compromises there. Yeah, yeah, it can be a bit nuanced, but I think, uh, with the feature that Rails gives you out of the box of things like has secure password and stuff, you're
not gonna shoot yourself in the foot too badly. You might make an odd mistake or something like a common mistake that people make is when you store like a cookie by Valentino. So when you start a cookie that kind of authentic is the user. The only thing you put in that cookie is the user I D. And when it's just that, that cookie kind of forms a permanent key player app. So if someone gets hold of that cookie, there
is nothing you can do to stop them. And the reel tutorial thought authentication that way, and it is a very common way of teaching authentication in the in raels was you just saw the you just stick the user iety in a
in a in an encrypted cookie. So like while a hacker could never see or modify what the user iety was, they could in perpetuity log in as that user because there's nothing like the useriety doesn't change, right, there's nothing you can do to invalidate Thatalu, Yeah you can just yeah, so that's why. Yeah, So that's why you need a second value. So you need the useriety and you need like an authentication token, and then you authenticate
the user based on both those things. And if someone gets hold of that cookie, all you need to do is invalidate that session token, and that cookie is useless. So it's things like that where you'd end up shooting yourself
in the foot, But those things can be fixed. You won't make some like an absolutely horrendous mistake if you use the tools that Rails gives you, because things like has to get pass what it's pretty battle tested, it's been out there for a while, so you won't make mistakes at the like a cryptographic level necessarily. It'll probably just make more like product mistakes, which it's
much easier to educate against. Right, makes sense. Cool? Well, it's it's been fun to kind of get to know your background a little bit. Cheah. Well, I hope people didn't get too bored of me rambling on, but it's fun to chat. I find it fascinating. So the rest of you all, I hope you did too. Let's let's go ahead and do some picks though and wrap this up. Do you have some picks? Uh? Yeah, I've got a couple. I haven't been doing a
whole lot recently yet, but I did. I watched Inola Holmes two and then realized I didn't remember anything about the first movie, so I went back and watched the first movie as well. But yeah, I can wholeheartedly recommend both those movies. It's about for any and it doesn't know. It's about Shellock Holmes as little sister Inola Holmes, and it's very much she's the protagonist. And the movies are very well made. So like, if you're a
fan of Shellock Holmes like I am, you'll probably enjoy it. And it's very much like they kind of made the movie in a way that she is the central character. Doesn't feel like like a bolt on into the show lot, coms world or anything. It's very entertaining, very well done. So yeah, those two movies. Other than that, I'm on the current rewatch binge of Breaking Bad. I mean, I think, is there anyone who hasn't seen Breaking Bad by this point? So, I mean, have we
not? I know I haven't, I will say. I mean it looks, it looks fascinating. It's a brilliant show. It's like, I love Breaking Bad, but I'm a bigger fan of the prequel, Better Call Saul, which is my favorite TV show of all time. Okay, so yeah, I rewatched Better CALLSL a couple of months ago, and I realized I hadn't seen Breaking Bad since Better Calls all concluded, which was in two, so I figured, why not binge it again? So that's what I'm doing.
So those are my epics in Nola Holmes, Want and Do and Breaking Bad. Yeah, I know I watched the first and Nola Holmes, I think I saw the second one. Yeah, so the TV rewatch Binge that I'm on. I know, I know people are like, what about board games? I'll get to that. The one that I've been watching is The Walking Dead. So I watched the first four or five seasons way back when they were coming out, and then I think I got caught caught up and
I quit watching it. And so now that there are like eleven seasons, I'm kind of curious to see what I missed in the later video, the later episode. So yeah, I've been watching that. I've been watching on Netflix and uh yeah, maybe I'll pick up Breaking Bad next. Some of these shows, though, they get a little too gritty for my wife. Ah, okay, Breaking Bad might be something I watched by myself. Yeah, it can. It can be a bit visial. Sometimes they don't really
it's it's it's not it's not like Game of Thrones. That's not where like Gore is like a unique selling point of the show. But the right when they want to make an impact, they don't shy away from it, right. Well, and that's that's the thing with Walking Dead is because I try to get my wife to watch it, and she just expressed no interest in it. But I think the overall premise, the story, the characters,
I think she'd really get into it. But I when I started rewatching it, I'm only like four episodes in at this point, But yeah, I didn't realize how much gore there is in it with just you know, I mean, they have to shoot the zombies in the head and so you see just you know, they're blowing their brains out and stuff, and it, yeah, it gets a little bit graphic. I think that's kind of the
impact that they wanted to make though on screen. Right. So anyway, but yeah, as far as board games go, so I'm going to kind
of pick a couple of things. So lately I've been playing games on board Game Arena, and that's an online system for playing board games, and they actually have a developer toolkit for building games, so you can build card games or board games or whatever, right, and you can put the assets in right, So you have a scan of the board and you know, a scan of all the cards and everything, and anyway, it's pretty awesome.
The games that I've been playing on there lately are Challengers, and I've picked that before, and the other one that I've been playing is Lost Ruins of Arnac. Challengers is very approachable, fun game is kind of a deck building game and kind of a I don't know exactly how to describe it. It's kind of like war, but it's not. Anyway, I really like it.
And then so effectively, every round you draw more cards out of the pile and you choose which ones to keep in your deck, and then they all have different values and different powers, and so you know, depending on how how the play comes out, because you just pull the card off the top of your deck, you don't know what it is, right you can. You basically are just trying to beat the other person's last card. And
anyway, it's pretty fun. You can play it up to like eight players, and so then what happens is you rotate who you're playing with every turn. Lost Ruins Varnak is much more involved. Uh so you you have work replacement, you have a tech tree, you have Exploration. It's got a whole bunch of different elements, but it's it's probably one of my uh more beloved games that I play these days. So I'm gonna I'm gonna pick both of those. I'm not going to go look them up on Board game Geek.
I don't remember what their weights are, but Challengers is very approachable for anybody, and Lost Ruins of Oarnac is more for the hardcore board game players. And then on the technical side, so I've had a few things that I've been picking up lately, either because I'm trying to, you know, learn a technology that I haven't used or haven't used in a while. For my contract. Right it's like, hey, they're using it, and so I've I've got to figure out how to you know, model through it and
not make, you know, fundamental mistakes on how I use it. And I get feedbacks on the prs that I put in, so it's not it's not bad, it's just anyway. But one thing that I picked up that I really really like is VAT. So there's a VAT Ruby and Veat rails gems and we've we've had Massimo on the show. Before I think to talk about it, but it gives me hot module reloading, which I wasn't really
getting for prop shaft or important maps. And the other thing is is sometimes I felt like I had to fuss with stuff to get it to play nice with the important maps and vat Ruby, it just works. So I've been pretty happy with that. And yeah, now that I'm pulling in stimulus components and starting to get into using turbo and turbo screens, yeah, that's been so super nice. The other end of it that I've also been liking. I never got into writing kind of the what is it feature or system level
tests for rails right. I always wrote my unit tests and then occasionally i'd write tests for other things if it got complicated. But lately I've gotten into copy Barra, and it's because my client uses them on their stuff right to test their stuff that use copy Barra, and man, that's been super nice
once I kind of got the hang of writing those specs. It's nice because it'll walk through the app and do the things, and you can enable the JavaScript and it uses the Chrome driver and right, so it'll it'll test my hot wire and everything because I'm not super keen on testing my front end JavaScript. Sorry, I just I'm not. And for the most part, my stimulus controllers are very very simple, right, It's, hey, make this show up and use the animations that I put on it. I mean,
that's almost entirely what I've done so far. So the only tricky thing that I've had to do is I've been I've had to figure out how to get one controller to trigger the method on another controller. Right, So I have a button that makes something show up, and it's not really in the thing that makes it show up. So anyway, I've I've had to figure that out. But are you using what you're using? The outlets API outlets API.
Yeah, that's a mechanism for one stimulus controller to communicate with another stimulus controller. The the thing that I've been I'm looking at. I'm looking it up now because no, I didn't even know this was the thing I was looking at. So on the reference under the controllers it says you can use an event to trigger the other method. But I'll have to look at this, because yeah you can. And it's again, it just depends on your
use cases. Sometimes triggering an event is the right thing to do. But again, if you just look at the reference and on the left you'll see a section for outlets. Yeah, it might be that outlets, So what you're looking for in this particular case, Yeah, I'll have to look at that because yeah, yeah, anyway, I'll dive through it. But yeah, it'd be nice because all I'm looking for is, like I have a menu. I have two menus, one that slides in from the left and
the other that slides in from the right. And yeah, effectively, I'm just looking for the one on the right. I have a button that's you know, in the middle of my page, and so I don't want to wrap the whole page in a stimulus component if I don't have to, or a stimulus controller, and so yeah, I'm looking for Okay, if I click this link, it's going to open this other thing over here and make
it slide in. So I don't know if outlets is the right thing for that or yeah, it might be actually, yeah, just like without looking at the code, it's hard to say, but I have a feeling it would probably be the simplest way to do it. Okay, sounds good. Yeah, because I've been I have to say the documentation on stimulus is not
always as comprehensive as I would like it. No, it isn't. Yeah, and so what I run into is it's like, hey, you could do this, and you could do this in this way, and it's like, okay, but my situation is just different enough, or you're not telling me which parts of this matter and so right, so I'm trying to figure out, yeah, how to get the gears to mesh, and so I have to fuss with it to get it to go. So anyway, yeah, it can be a bit tricky just to yeah, yeah stuff, we'll
look at that. That's good. Yep, that's a good tip. But anyway, so I am going to shout out beat Ruby that made my life simpler. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to uh pulling some of these gems out of this project myself. Anyway, we're pretty much out of time, so I'm gonna wrap us up and we'll talk about Bridgetown next week. Yeah sounds good. Another week of me rambling on what could go wrong? Yeah all right, Well, well next time, folks, max out h