Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on Rolling Stones hugely popular, influential and sometimes controversialist. I'm Britney Spanos and.
I'm Rob Sheffield and we're here to shed light on the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them so great. And this week's song Dynamite by BTS.
This is one of two songs by BTS that are on the Greatest Songs of All Time lists. They made their debut, of course in twenty twenty one, ranking at number three forty seven with Dynamite, and then spring Day landed at number.
Two hundred and eighty.
And I mean BTS was already massive phenomenons at that point, but Dynamite kind of tipped over the edge of BTS mania that would happen globally. I mean, this was their first number one song on the Billboard Hot one hundred. This was their first fully English language song, and this was the first time in all South Korean group hit number one on the Hot one hundred.
They also broke barriers with the Grammys as well.
They got their first Grammy nomination and we're also the first South Korean artists to be nominated for a Grammy Award. I mean, it was just kind of a boundary breaking, massive moment for this band.
Yeah, Like spring Day and Dynamite kind of a beautiful pair on the list just because they're sort of opposite extremes of the BTS story. Spring Day is them like as the South Korean band. It's a song that was for the hardcore fans, a very emotional, very inspiring song, a very message oriented song. And Dynamite is after they've become global phenomenon by being exactly themselves, not compromising anything
like that. They got so huge in the US, which is so historically resistant to any music not in English, and they just did not cross over to North America. They made North America cross over to them and Dynamite. For them to finally do an English language song after they were so massive here on their own terms was just kind of beautiful. They didn't do it because they had to or because it would get them anything that they didn't already have, Like they just they felt like doing this.
Yeah, and the song in particular too, the timing of it was so much. They released this in August twenty twenty, and this is this song is like, I mean, it's just like Sunshine bottled up into a song. It's like a really great kind of like seventies funk, like very like Bruno Mars Uptown funky esque type of song.
It's like really bright and happy.
And of course this was August twenty twenty, not a particularly bright or happy time for anyone around the globe.
And I mean it's very purposeful.
They wanted to release a song that was, you know, meant to put a smile on people's faces, bring a little bit of joy and lightness, you know. Bts as songwriters that are coming from a place of talking about being a young person in South Korea who's dealing with kind of the pressures of a perfection, or about mental health, or about grief. Spring Day a perfect example of that. And this was a song that they very intentionally wanted to put out into the world that was kind of
countering the amount of grief that people were facing. And it's just kind of a beautiful sentiment and obviously the song did just that for a lot of people.
Yeah, it really struck a nerve. It would have been so different if they did the song a couple of years earlier, you know, when they were still on the rise in this part of the world where it would have seemed or in some way it might have been a sort of compromise to try to broaden their audience. But they did dynamite when they were already as big as any group could possibly be. Yeah, it was almost
a victory lap for them. And like you said that, it was at a very bleak global time and very similar message, very similar emotional impact as Spring Day, but on a just broader global scale.
Yeah, And I mean, like many boy bands before them, you know, you don't really need a number one to tell you that this band is like the biggest in the world, right, Like this is kind of like the stats quote for a lot of like really big kind of global success type of stadium filling boy bands. I mean, like One Direction is a great example of that, where it's like number one hits don't necessarily measure the global
impact of a group like this. But BTS already broken the dam for K pop globally as a crossover artist, you know, well before the song blew up, And you know, it's just kind of a sort of solidified that in a lot of ways, it's sort of just kind of further solidified that legacy of what they had done for K pop as a genre, for idol groups overall. For that kind of like legacy of that in this particular moment where they can be a crossover success in any capacity.
Yeah, really, while also that it came so soon after I mean the whole map of the Soul franchise and
just how complex that is. What I think made them like so forbidding and intimidating to people, Like when they first started to crossover in this part of the world was just that they were not what people figured when people heard the words k pop or boy band, they had an image of one thing, and like bts were just so complex in terms of the mythology and in terms of you know, it's like, yeah, they do concept albums about Nietzsche and Kyl Jung and like this, this
is what they do. Like nothing they do is watered down. So for them to do Dynamite a very simple, accessible across the board, anybody hearing this could like it at first listen, just a real statement in itself.
Yeah, I mean with Dynamite, I mean, with this kind of like further breakthrough post map of the Soul everything that was going on, I mean of course, like Map of the Soul was already massive in its own right.
They were a decade in.
At this point since they had first formed, and you know, seven years since they made their debut. But I love kind of like the origin of RM being this like underground wrapper and like this Big Hit Wine to create a hip hop group around him. So Sugar and Jay Hope were the first ones recruited and eventually kind of decided to pivot to an idol group. And we're having like struggling getting people to audition to be part of
an idol group. I mean, now Big Hit Entertainment is like one of the biggest names in kpop globally, I mean just in pop music globally, and we're kind of, you know, a very lesser known label at that point. But Yeah, eventually formed a group in twenty ten, spent three years training. They were like living together. They were spending like fifteen hours a day training and practicing to
become this like powerhouse group. I mean you can tell and like every single one of the performances, like they are just like incredibly talented, each of them, And you know, in twenty thirteen, made their debut and started releasing music under big hit and obviously I've become one of the one of the biggest bands in history.
Yeah, and did it by playing up their weirdness. I mean, it is funny, especially when they started to like make inroads here where you know, there's real resistance to boy bands. People like never really appreciate them. The whole tradition legacy is that they have this pop audience that they start with and other audiences really threatened by that. I know
the memory is similar for you. But when one of the first times that they were on one of the American late night chat shows and there was this funny idea of like, how we'll dress them up is the Beatles. Oh playing at Sullivan doesn't hold up great with time.
Yeah now, but even at that time seemed like really like uncomprehending of how original they were and the idea the only way Americans could appreciate this was by channeling it through something that they already knew that was from England and got it completely backwards, because BTS became stadium band here just by being themselves and honestly, they didn't have any songs that sounded like the Beatles, and they just they weren't like the Beatles. They were their own kind of thing.
Yeah, I mean, it was one of those things, especially with K pop iidle groups. I mean, they've existed for a very long time, and these groups have always been very very successful and massive in a lot of ways in a lot of markets. Obviously, there was very little breakthrough in the American market until BTS. I mean other than cy blowing up and becoming kind of like this viral like mean sort of sort of artist and song with Gongenham style. But I mean BTS was that kind
of like really important art group. But that like really helped kind of show for a lot of like American industry experts and people who are like paying attention to really great pop music that this was like a massive global success and something worth paying attention to and bigger than are previously seeing kind of quantifiable ways of measuring success.
That's such a brilliant way to put it. They were just outside any model that people could use in any I mean, certainly like going back in time to when they were first making records, it would have been easy for any American expert in the music busins to say what they should do. If you want to be popular here, It's like, Okay, first you have to do some songs in English. You have to do duets with very famous American stars who have fallen on hard times, which is
why they're doing this kind of duet. You need to pick some members of the group and make them the front people. You need to really limit what they do, so it's very understandable and accessible. And it's almost like they anticipated that advice and did the exact opposite of all that stuff, and that their story couldn't have happened if they'd tried to compromise in any way.
Yeah, And I mean it's such a great story of kind of the power of fandom. I mean, this is just like a band that is very close with their with the BTS Army, with their fans, like has kind of, you know, just organically built this like really worldwide network of people who love them and kind of appreciate the fact that they exist in this way where they have their their personalities, they each have like their strengths, and you know, I mean we're seeing this now with their
solo releases that they're they're rolling out. I mean, there's so much talent kind of locked into this group, Like people just could not like had not seen something like that before.
Yeah, it was funny that in terms of them, in terms of like Dynamite being them's, it couldn't have been Dynamite if they'd done it as a step up into the English language or American market. It was really something that only became the triumph it became because they did it after they didn't need that kind of that move anymore. Like they're duet with Megan. They didn't do that to get more popular. Yeah, Like they did that because they were so popular. Yeah, because they had such a fascinating
combination with Megan. Yeah, that record is just so unique for both of them, Like they did not need to meet each other in the middle, and they didn't.
Yeah, and even with Dynamite, I mean, this is like one of the first songs that none of them had a hand in writing too. Like they like them, they've been writing their own music since they were you know, kids like that, they've been doing this the entire time. Is like also especially given how part of the success of BTS is kind of they were writing from this
place of this like very real you know. They have like the school series where they're talking about their experiences as teens and they're they're translating that to their music and kind of what they were going through, and that's always been such an important part of their success and of their music. And I think we talk about that all the time with so many artists who.
Start really young.
Is like, what draws in those fans and what draws and people caring about them is them just kind of relaying that experience of being young and what it's like to a new generation of people who are young and trying to make sense of the world. And that's exactly what BTS was doing for their fans from the you know, from the time they broke and from the time they debuted.
Yeah, you made such a crucial point about them in terms of their evolution that this happens after the Internet has created a new kind of fan community, fan culture that exists independent of the conventional music industry, so that they could really do an end run around the conventional industry just because it was so suddenly so accessible for people around the world from all different cultures, all different generations, all different languages, all different styles of music, so accessible
for people to find that music and make their own connection to it.
Yeah, and I think like it's always you know, interesting talking with people about kind of like what those origins of really like massive sort of fan networks online where and I think everyone sort of has different answers, right, because I mean like there's like, you know, people think about Low Monsters and like how they function online, but like you know, in comparison to like One Direction, right, Like you know, the Low Monsters were less involved with
like the success of Lady Gaga as like you know, directioners were involved with the success of One Direction. But you know, like I mentioned earlier, like it's so much like K pop fandom existing online because this was like that kind of global connection.
Is that feels so much to me like the.
Defining aspect of of how internet fandoms formed and how they work on you know, from different chat rooms and you know kind of the kind of nascent version of ways people talk to each other online to like Humblr and MySpace and Twitter now and then.
TikTok and all of that.
That feels like that origin and sort of that kind of natural progression of making an act like BTS become as big as.
They have become, absolutely and boy, like what you said about the army, like being part of the group is so true. And that's such a long tradition for boy bands, and yet they always have this song that's about you know, the fans. They always have the tribute. They always know that the audience is there. They've all got the classic song that's you know, they're larger than life, They're you know,
like thank you girls. There's song that's directly to the audience, and that BTS just made such a tradition of that in itself. So many great love songs that come on and you go through them as conventional love songs, but they're heard and meant to be heard as you know, songs between the boys and their audience.
Yeah, And I'm curious, like, do you think that Dynamite will be that like I want it that way for BTS, Like or do you see another song or maybe we haven't heard that song yet, but do you think that this will become that song for them? Or do you have another one that you feel stands out in that way?
Wow, it's interesting. Would you say, we don't know if Dynamite is going to go down in history as the one. It's funny like Dynamite is one that just it stands out as a highlight, but I don't know if it'll go down in history as you know, the highlight of this phase at least.
Yeah, And I mean just even like the timing, you know, of course, in twenty twenty two, you know, all the members ended up having to put this on pause so that they can do their eighteen months of mandatory military service in South Korea. They're all kind of doing it at different times and obviously depending on age and kind of going in order of that. So they've been slowly rolling out solo albums, which have also done extremely well
and been really like massive successes for them. Though I am curious kind of what happens in twenty twenty five, which is when they said they would end up returning to the group and releasing more music, and what that will look like. I trust them more than other boy bands that have said that they're on hiatus, So I'm gonna I'm gonna believe that they're they will come back together, because it did feel like it was just a kind of a new a new beginning for them as a group.
Yeah, And this is always a hiatus to head a particular purpose. Yeah, and they knew this was coming. This is part of like a long term planning for them. It didn't come by surprise.
Yeah, Obviously, strategy can't tell you like how big a band will get, like, no matter how well you're strategizing.
But they knew it was coming.
It just so happened that they were one of the best selling acts of the world. Yes, as the time that happened.
Yeah, for something like Dynamite, and when it came at a time when they didn't have to work through conventional North American media. I think a lot of us associate Dynamite with when they were on the Grammys doing Dynamite, and it was a first for them to be doing one of their songs on the Grammys. They were on, you know, the year before doing soul Town Road, which was a phenomenal ten second moment in the Grammys.
Bedne I'm almost completely forgot about. That was such a good moment.
It was such a great moment.
And next up, we will be joined by Michelle Kim, who is a freelance editor and writer whose work has appeared in Rolling Stone, Pitchfork, Teen, Vogue, The Guardian, and much more. We are joined now by Michelle Kim, who is an amazing freelance writer and editor who's written for Rolling Stone and numerous other outlets. And thank you so much for joining us today.
Thanks you having me.
Yeah, I'm very excited.
So I mean, tell us a little bit about the origins of both your BTS fandom and also covering them.
Yes, so, honestly, I have sort of a maybe complicated relationship with K pop, or I did have growing up because I was super into it in middle school.
Was super into Big Bang.
That was like my original group, if you will. But then as I kind of got older, I didn't really know if I wanted to keep on listening to the Korean music because I didn't know if I wanted to fit in more within like my American school, and whenever I listened to Korean music, I felt kind of alienated from it. So I knew of BTS and I kept
up with their singles. I had friends who liked them, so I knew them as they were kind of rising from I would say, like twenty seventeen when DNA got really big, and then in the pandemic, everything sort of blew up with Dynamite, and that was also a time when we were all isolated. I was kind of looking inwards myself and trying to figure out, like what's going on.
And I think BTS was actually like a really important part of me, like taking Korean classes for the first time, like connecting back to my heritage, and just because there was so much content, I kind of just like fell into this k pop hole.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I mean from your perspective too of being a young fan of you know, a lot of idol groups and artists, like what was sort of that development of the popularity of Korean music in the US or kind of especially leading up to BTS breaking through and kind of building sort of even more success in the US and allowing you know, I guess, like more recognition for a lot of other artists from South Korea. But I'm curious, like what your perspective is of especially the online fandom portion of Yes.
Yeah, So I would say growing up it was pretty niche to like K pop, And I would say that there was some sort of like enclaves of communities, probably more on the West Coast in California that like, we're super into it as a niche thing that they liked. But I grew up on the East Coast, so like fandom was pretty fragmented for me, and there's just some songs that like me and my brother listened to only
from what it felt like for me. But during the pandemic, like I said, since everyone was inside looking for an escape from their dreary, like just waking up in your own house every day. I think that because K pop produces so much content around the music itself, whether that's music videos, behind the scenes footage and them goofing around, and also just a lot of idol groups making what they call variety content, which is just them like playing games with each other like you would see on a
variety show. And I think BTS actually kind of kicked off this huge trend of idols doing that sort of content because they started their run BTS series I think in twenty fifteen, where they just would hang out play games.
It was super funny.
You got to see the members' personalities outside of their very serious stage persona, and I think at that time and during the pandemic, a lot of people started watching that show, watching their YouTube video. They have behind the scenes content called punk t on Bombs, which are just them being backstage goofing around. And I think just the fact that people could watch so much minutia of someone else's daily life that wasn't their own, Like the fandom really blew up.
Yeah, And I mean what is it about them in particular?
I mean it is I mean the personality is obviously such a big part of it.
They all are just like so charismatic and so just like kind of energy personified and like both their performances and also what we see off stage. But I mean obviously the music is I mean just the way it's developed over the last I guess, like decade of them being a public band, Like, what is it about that chemistry that they have as a group that made them break through in the way that they have even before Dynamite being their first fully English language single, I mean, what was it about them?
In particular?
The origin of BTS was a pretty unusual one in terms of three of the members were sort of part of these street hip hop circles and were already sort of performing or writing raps and producing before they became idols. So I'm talking about Rm, he was writing raps and releasing music before he was training at Big Hit Entertainment. Shuga was also rapping and producing, and then Jay Hope
was part of a street dance crew. What it seems like is that big hit at the time, they wanted to really create this more hip hop leaning group that they could take the talents that these members had already developed and then maybe match them with more idleish members which they would then scout and then put together this
pretty unique format for a boy group. And like, after their debut, the chairman of their company even said, like convinced them to join, like become an idol, become part of this group by saying, you won't have to learn complicated choreography, it won't be that kind of group. It'll be a hip hop group. And then they joined and they were like, oh, you lied to us, So they
talked about that openly. But all that is to say is that the songwriting is super strong, because I think RM and Sugar they have been really the backbone of the songwriting and they're just very analytical but also poetic sort of writers in their own ways. And I think having that foundation, but then also having other producers and
songwriters kind of making them into catchy hits. And then as they debuted and went from more like hip hop sounding to like more synthpop electropop to the bubblegun pops that they eventually made. I think that's sort of where it all like came together, where fans noted that there was a lot of interesting lyricism and songwriting to grab onto, but then they could also have the very like catchy fun moments as well.
I'm curious because we're talking about Map of the Soul and it's place in their story and in their mythology. And yes, and like you said, this kind of world building.
That they've done totally.
I do know that like world building was an extremely important part of just cultivating that fandom. Like I said, people really like to grab onto storylines that have nothing to do with them, that exist in a fantasy land outside of them. And because like I said, RM is super like into literature and like looking up different like psychology terms, they took Freudian and Youngian language to build out this like universe of pop music. Yeah, that's what I can say about it.
I mean, the two songs that are on the list, spring Day and Dynamite, really tell two very distinct sides of the BTS story. And I talk about spring Day a little bit about the significance.
Spring Day is one of my favorite personally my favorite BTS songs. It is one of my go to karaoke songs.
I think the lyrics are so beautiful. They're basically in this category of BTS music that I like to just call yearning music, which is they're expressing when will I see you again, and using this imagery of like snowflakes falling but also like blossoms falling to convey this passage of like from the transition between winter to spring and waiting for this person to come back to their life or seeing them again in this sort.
Of like ethereal otherworldly way. I don't know, That's how I see the song. So it's at its court, it's a.
Ballad, but there is a lot of this like electrocynth production underneath that kind of pushes it through. And then like I said, like RM and Shuga like bringing in there that make it a little bit more unique and
break up the structure of the song. It has become sort of this interesting piece of culture within South Korean mainstream culture because the song has been tied to the Civil Fairy tragedy where unfortunately there was this horrible event where these elementary schoolers were taken on a field trip to go on a faery and something happened with the
boat that ended up in this mass death. For a long time that song was linked to that event unofficially because the lyrics kind of convey this sadness and longing of I will never be able to see you again. And then I think a couple years ago they've kind of semi confirmed in interviews that they're comfortable with that song being tied to that event, and so I'm not sure exactly if it was written in response to the event, but it seems like they are okay with people thinking that it's connected.
Yeah, I mean, there is so much beauty connecting it to the purpose of Dynamite being released when it was and being released mid pandemic and meant to be this kind of like light to their fans and to their listeners, which ended up going beyond, of course the core fandom
and finding such like a massive audience. I mean, how do you kind of envision what Dynamite started to begin for this new chapter for BTS's career and leading to a string of big hits from them, and also kind of the widening of their fan base.
Definitely.
I think Dynamite is such a pivotal point where there is such a clear before and after. They have talked in interviews about the fact that they were promoting their single on from Map of the Soul in February twenty twenty and had to cancel in the middle of promotions, was going to go on this whole world tour and had to cancel all of that, regroup and figure out what their next direction is. And Dynamite was the next direction, and it really like skyrocketed them at a time when
people really needed escapism, like energetic music. I think disco was like kind of in the ether that year with like Doja Kat and Dua Lipa or in that era I mean, and I think I pulled a quote from RM who said, like in the video where they announced that they would like focus on their solo projects, he said, like, I didn't know what we would do after On, but then COVID came up, so we did Dynamite. Butter Permission to dance. Life goes on and I realized that the group
has definitely changed. We have to accept that we've changed. For me, it was like the group ETS was within my grasp until On in Dynamite, but then after Butter and Permission to dance, I didn't know what kind of group we were anymore. What I get from that is that they didn't really realize that Dynamite was gonna get so big and they were just trying something. I think they were trying a lot of new things where it was a song where the group members like didn't participate
in songwriting, which was very rare for them. They got some I believe Americans writers to co write a song and then they just sang it and it was also what's kind of unusual for the song is that all the vocal lines for the members are all pretty much the same, Like it's they all get like a couple verses here and there, but it's not like RM and Sugar and Jahope are rapping and then like there's a specific like bridge or something for Chung Gup, like all
of them kind of get a similar melody. And I think that that was unusual at the time because it was more of a straightforward pop song that they were just like, Okay, we'll sing it. And so what RM was kind of saying about like losing not being able to grasp the group's identity anymore is that they made Dynamite, it blew up, and then they I think the company tried to recreate that magic with Butter, which I think
they did successfully. I love Butter personally, but then there was like this expectation to either continue that sort of standard pop music or what they go back to the sort of creative, very BTS music that they made before.
Yeah wow, And I mean they've all rolled out solo albums at this point since they've been on their hiatus for military service, and I'm curious, like in that identity sense, like what do those solo albums say about where the members of BTS are now?
Creative way I think I've kind of hinted before, But I think also a magic of BTS is that all of the members are so different. They have all such different personalities, they all have such different tastes in music, they express themselves in completely different ways, and that's not
the case with all K pop groups. Sometimes companies make groups where they want the members to be somewhat similar or want them to have a certain vibe, and with BTS, they I feel like they really wanted people who were all different and unique, and it feels like big hit help foster that uniqueness, even if they did have to come together as a group. And so I see the solo albums as each of the members is really trying to like challenge themselves to make their unique statement, make
the music that they couldn't make before. For RM, that means making very like experimental indie folk to indie rock, to like electronic R and B, and like kind of going all over the place. That's what he did with Indigo. With Jay Hope, that means making this like really intense trap music and so on and so forth.
You've written so powerfully about spring Day and about the sort of the emotional history of that song in its place and their legacy and in their story. I guess we're talking about different songs that represent different sort of moments in their history. And you talk about the category of yearning songs. Oh yeah, okay, I'm curious what other categories you have in mind when you think about their music.
In terms of BTS categories. I would say there's the really like hard hitting hip hop songs where they're just going in with their lyricism and like traying like a super cool like rap persona. So their songs like ooh,
their Cipher series. I love that category as well. And I would also say they have songs that are about like the power of friendship and like loving each other, which I think is also very appealing to fans because they like seeing like idols interact in terms of like seeing like platonic intimacy in a way, and so those songs are also really tender and wonderful. Yeah, and there's also some songs that are more like social commentary, more
speaking from the perspective of youth and teenagers. And so one of my other favorites is this song called silver Spoon, which is just kind of talking to older generations, being like, why do you keep on telling us to work harder when society is not set up to help us out. And so there's a lot of different categories with them, which I think has helped their success a lot.
And finally, to sort of broaden out and to think about the future of a lie like the five hundred three of songs of all the time list, of course, what do you kind of envision in the future, like maybe a future kind of like a decade from now, of like what songs you'd like to see on the list beyond of course BTS, if there are, of course BTS songs that you think should make a future version of the list, but artists or songs that should be represented in the future that's had a big impact both.
On K pop and pop music generally.
Yes, definitely. The first artist that came to mind was maybe a New Gene song because I think they've had such a strong impact on not only the K pop landscape, a lot of aesthetics kind of followed since their debut, So perhaps New Genes, But I think it would be really interesting to like go back and look at sort of the more seminole K pop songs and like see
if those have a place in the list. I helped like make the one hundred best Songs in the History of Korean pop music list for a Rolling Stone, and our number one was g by Girls Generation, which is just such a sugar bomb of a song, and I think that we really try to recognize that song as like there is a place for cuteness and loveliness in pop music, and K pop girl groups really nail it, and so I'm wondering if there can be more of those vibes on the list.
Well, thank you so much. Michelle for joining us today. I really appreciate it.
Thank you, thank you, thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stones five hundred Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia Brittan. Hosted by Me, Britney Spannis and Rob Sheffield. Executive produced by Gus Winner, Jason Fine, Alex Dale and Christian Horde, and produced by Jesse Cannon, with music supervision by Eric Seiler