She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
I'm tiff. This is Roll with the Punches and we're turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go to court, and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements
and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Tim Hague, welcome to Roll with the Punches.
Good morning, Good morning from a cloudy and overcast you.
Gere at six am in the morning for you top of the morning, could you bounce out of four this morning to you? Got to work out in first.
No by thirty, peeled myself out of bed and made a very large cup of highly caffeinated coffee to start my deer.
Well, it's an absolute pleasure to connect to you. It's pleasure to speak with you. I've dug deep into the interweb and I've found you across the globe and dragged you into a conversation and I couldn't be more appreciative that you've said yes and got yourself here and out of bed and caffeinated for it.
You're welcome.
Do you want to give both myself and my listeners a bit of a bit of an intro to who is Tim Haig?
Tim is now fifty three, married to my wife Donor. The kids call it Duna, that little pet name that the kids have for her kids I say, eight teenager kids.
And we are currently building this not just a platform online, but a platform and a foundation in the education system to give people with lived experience, firstly a voice, give them their voice back, but also to educate and empower young people to not make some choices that we did because the quite painful consequences that can that can occur from same choices, and just to again use our lived experience to change and alter the course of a generation
of young people across the globe, to yeah, not make the same choices that we made, but to make the right choices for their life so they can succeed. And hopefully the intention is to create a you know, a better local communities or society at large, or even a global community of empowered young people.
I love that. I love it so much so when you say lived experience, what comes under that umbrella for myself?
Grew up in a very impoverished community back in the nineteen seventies and early eighties. Lived in a government provided house we call them council houses here, large family. We lived on benefits. But I grew up in a lot of poverty. I grew up around a lot of violence. My dad was quite violent in the hope, very violent in the home. Violence was the norm in my family heritage, my dad, my uncle, my granddad, and possibly people before them.
Some people would describe that as a toxic masculine environment, and to a degree was will possibly come back to that. But I was still a smart kid, still a very bright kid, I believe it. And I had a bright ginger hair style. Yes, yes, very ginger, very big, very bright.
I believe it because of the book color of your eyes.
Oh there you go. I got the hair from my mum. And yeah, I started high school very bright, you know, above average sets across the board. For a variety of reasons, I disengaged with my studies, whether it was a pursuit of popularity amongst my peers, or that kind of toxic masculine mindset was kicking in or manifesting itself. I didn't
like boundaries. I didn't have boundaries at home, you know, or very few just go out and come back whenever, you know, kind of mindset at home, very few boundaries. So when the teaching staff tried to implement boundaries from my be fit of my success, I resisted and pushed against them and wouldn't engage with them. So my downfall at school was very quick. Failed everything at school in terms of exams, already built up a comprehensive criminal record. But I was also a dad at fifteen.
Wow, far right, You squeezed a lot into your first fifteen years.
Yeah, that's half the story, but it's enough. Yeah we haven't quite got enough time. But that's a pretty good overview.
Yeah, what were you like as a younger As a younger kid like that primary school age, were you were you were handful or were you was it kind of a shift when you got a bit older and.
No, I was. I'm speaking you know for myself. I was quite cute. I was always pleasant, I was always courteous, and that's not just my opinion, that's obviously people that have met many years later. I'm not quite sure where the shift came about, how it came around, you know, that kind of tipping point, shall we call it. You see, when we grew up in poverty and around violence and lack and need as kids, as a family, we didn't realize that what we were experiencing and our home life
wasn't normal. You know, we thought everybody's family lived like we did. It's only when you get a comparison to compare your life against the life of somebody else, do you start to question your own life, your own existence, your own experiences. And I think that really started when I was probably ten, last year of primary school before
I went to the high school. So I think that may have been a part of that awareness rising in me, the questions beginning to formulate in my mind and my thinking, and then resisting or pushing back against the two kind of you know, the life I was living and the life that my friends were living.
Yeah, did you did you have an awareness or that they? I mean, what did that violence look like in the home, in the family environment, And are you aware of it or was it, like you said, just the.
Norm that is between my dad and my mom. More often you'd hear it, so we'd be upstairs. The house walls were quite thin, so a lot of the time you'd hear it and then see the effects of it the next morning. Obviously in my mom, I mean sometimes she'd give as good as she got, but there was those occasions were quite rare. But it was very violent towards kids, all of us, well, certainly the older ones anyway,
So obviously we experienced that side. And it wasn't just a click around the ear, you know, it was very aggressive, very violent, you know, probably go to jail stuff round.
And what was that lack for you?
Were you?
Were you scared of that? Did you push back against that? Did you did you become a version of that? Were you ashamed of that?
I mean we lived in fear of my dad, yeah, you know, definitely lived in fear of him in and around the house. But it was a mixed emotion because you know, you live in fear of this person, but it was my dad and I loved him. He got the job. He's the only dad I had. So you know, you've got this dual kind of emotion, this this kind
of negative and positive thing going on. And then now and again he'd do something, you know, we'd go off for the day and make a den or something, you know, and he take the techn the knives or the tools with him to cut down trees and stuff, you know, and you just have an amazing day and all the negative memories would fade away because you know, my dad is now my hero because he's made a day or is you know, we've had full or whatever. And then they'd be back to his normal self today after that
for many weeks or months, So yeah, it was. It was a little bit confusing at times, but definitely painful. But then again using strength as sorry, using aggression as a form of strength, which is kind of one of the pillars of toxic masculinity. Not pillars, you know, one of the facets of it that then started to filter
through my life. You know, that aggression towards it was towards other men on my part, you know, seeing or hearing or experiencing the domestic balance in the home between my dad and my mum actually shifted something in me that I would never be physical called towards a woman but I would use aggression verbally to anybody, you know, you know, just displaying that anger, displaying that aggression to try and get what I wanted in life, and that
again filtered through my relationships and my activities in high school.
Yeah, and when did you start, so I know you have you had quite the running with gangs, drugs, prison. When did all of that started start to become I guess your social surrounding.
Probably eleven or twelve. Again, not many boundaries at home. There was always other children, siblings, younger siblings, so we were kind of left to our own devices. We would, yeah, go out of the house and the mantra would be come back home when the street lights come on, you know, so when the street lights around the community would come on. But it was difficult when we were playing in an old issused coal mine where there were no street lights, so often we'd come home late and get a kicking
for it. But yeah, kind of eleven twelve, but it started with different gangs. But I was always looking for a sense of belonging, always looking for an identity, which is quite often the inner focus of a person that has very little identity. At home, my dad was at home but he was. He was a present dad, but he was an absent father. My dad was present, but he was an absent father. There's a big difference between a dad and a father, huge different. So I looked
for that identity in gangs. But it took on the form of different gangs over my high school years. But it just all kind of tumbled out. Maybe it was just a young man carrying a lot of hurt. It all just came tumbling out in you know, in various ways, but all pretty much negative.
Yeah. Yeah, and prison, left school.
Jumping around with another group of kids, started going to the football which back in the eighties had a very aggressive and violent following, and football hooligans didn't get involved in it too much. But it was the people that I was jumping around with got in a gang fight. And since prison on my seventeenth birthday, to an adult prison.
Oh for how long? What was your first sentence?
Well, in total, I got nine years nine months. Oh wow, I ended up doing about three the cost of just how the sentencing works. But yeah, I kind of freaked out because I didn't quite know how long a sentence was because the judge you kept just throwing three years two years, three years, nine months, six months, six months, So it sounds more than it actually was, but I didn't know that at the time. Absolutely. I was actually quite relieved to get three years, you know, because I
thought it was nine plus. So actually when the said nine, I was like, oh, great, lovely, thanks, you know, but actually that was way too long anyway. But yeah, unfortunately that was the consequence of my choices. This is the reality of choices, and not only the prison sentence. You've got to bear in mind that we'd hurt people and that's unacceptable. But we didn't think like that back then. We didn't know that. Back then, we didn't you know,
comprehend or perceive. We just went round being violence people.
What was it? Can you record what it was like in the middle of that, being sixteen sixteen, seventeen, sixteen sixteen, being sixteen and being told and going through the sentencing process that you are going to be put in jail now for like you're only sixteen.
So oh sorry, it was my seventeenth birthday.
Sorry, yeah, oh happy to day around. Yeah, what a gift. But yeah, so at seventeen, you've one year is a long term. Look, one year is a lifetime at seventeen. So what was it like being put in jail for a number of years, of prison for a number of years. Can you remember what that felt like and what your perception of that was.
Yeah'll never forget it. I mean, you know, you don't forget things like that. It's so real, it's so vivid. I can remember it. I can remember the first time going there, you know, the experience. So the jails in the UK, some of them, they're old Victorian jails and they were built and design in prominent positions around cities. You know, basically it's put the fear of God into the people living in that area that if you're a
bad person, that's where they send you. You know, it was they were deliberately built around that, that kind of design and driving up to it. You know, kid seventeen, you know, handcuffed to a strange person. Police everywhere, you know, the transport, the police that transported you from court to prison. And then you get through the gate and you've got the high walls, the barred windows, You've got the noise, you you know, the smell, it stinks. You know, it's
a mixture of filth and clinical cleaning products. Yeah, and then and then you go through the regime of you know, everybody that goes into prison, you have to take your close off to to you know, to leave them in property, so you can take on your prison uniform. But as part of that routine, they've got a kid to make sure you've not got any concealed drugs or weapons. So it's basically strip off and bend and squat. I'll leave
the rest of yourself. Yeah, I was seventeen. I've got strange men and a male doctor, do you know what I mean? You know, and it's like you having a laugh with me, like no, stripping, squat, you know, it's kind of you know, next, next, next, not very nice. So yeah, I can remember it.
Yeah. What did that do to your identity? Does it? Like you've got this you're looking for a sense of belonging from the start, so you're exploring these gangs and looking for who you are, trying to find belonging, and then you're thrown into this prison environment. What does that do to your identity at seventeen? Like do you bick? You go, I'm a prisoner now this is my life. Did did it change you? Did it make you reflect?
No? In a very what way. It actually enhanced my standing in the gangs. I have now got the badge of honor. I'm now in prison. I am a criminal. Like everybody's going to be talking about me out there, you know, in a very warped way. It just, yeah, enhanced my street profile, my street credibility that people will be talking about me or you know whatever. That went on for quite a few months until the reality kicked in and you know, and then you're just getting on
with doing your jail. But I guess because I grew up in a very feral type of environment with very few boundaries and whatever, I just adjusted to my time in prison. I adjusted to being in prison. I ad just had to living in a cell. I adjusted to. Yeah, you just adapt, and feral people often do adapt. It's just another place to lay your head. It's just another place to do, you think. So, yeah, it was quite the opposite. Not really much time for reflection. Actually, my
activities got worse in prison. Started taking drugs, carried on fighting, got into a lot of trouble. Yeah, quite the opposite to a rehabilitative environment.
What type of drugs were you getting your hands on in prison?
Cannabis, LSD and cocaine. Hell, do you really want to know? I mean, some of them come through visits, you know, people passed them over in visits and the people in the prison secrete them very without the officers seeing where they're secreting them. Yeah, we call them. Some officers bring them into prison because obviously the value is hugely increased in prisons nowadays. A lot dropped into prisons by drones. So the drones fire over and drop them in the
prison yard, or people throw them. Yeah, all this is well known. I'm not giving you any state secrets or anything, but yeah, this is kind of how it works.
You are in my noive little bubble.
Thank thank thankfully you are in that now, you bubble. But yeah, so the stuff gets in in many under many guysers, and it's got its own market. You know. The prices increased probably fourfold, you know, for the substances.
Yeah, and when you're in prison, how does have it? How do you get the money to how does that work? How do you have the money to be at seventeen years old to be purchasing drugs?
You? I mean, you know you can't you get a job, so you can't work. You know, in the prison. Now you don't get physical money, but you get credit, so you can, you know, if you want to buy something off someday, they'll give you a shopping list of things they want. You go and buy the stuff out of your money and then pass on the you know, pass
on the shopping list. Or you can get money to their you know, from your family to their family outside you know who, then tell them that you know, said money has arrived, and you know, the transaction can continue in inside the prison. Prison Prisoners knock daft. Prisoners are not stupid. There's some very very very smart people in jail, some incredibly smart people, and if they only just shifted that direction of their life choices, they could succeed legitimately legally.
There are some very very clever people.
I am. Yeah. I love that. I've spoken to quite a few former prisoners in the past on the show, and I you know, the rehabilitative services that we have and the justice system as a whole gets me quite fired up because it's, you know, I see crime, especially here where I am at the moment, in our community pages, there's a lot of youth crime happening in this particular
state I live in. Kids are kids are committing adult crimes, and then nothing's happening because they if they get taken in by the police, they get out on bail straight away like nothing. It's just getting a bit crazy, and so people are starting I see people in fear of these of this stuff that's happening with these youths. But then I'm also I'm not on board with the jail the process of putting people in jail, and we fail
to rehabilitate properly. We're not rehabilitating people. We're punishing punished people. We're taking hurt people and we put them in them in a shitty, toxic system that actually doesn't it doesn't help them do whatever you've done, which we will talk about to really those I hate to change their laugh direction and make something of themselves. And I find that so frustrating and hard, and I have seen it from the inside.
Yeah, I mean, it's funding. It's clearly money, government money. It's financing the prison system, it's financing the services within the prison system. You know, I'm not a liberal that says we don't put them in jail. You know, some people need to go in jail. Society does have the right to be separated from people that can make criminal cs. So you know, I'm not like, don't send them to jail. If there's legitimate reasons, then absolutely, But when they are
in jail, that's when we need to help them. You know, they're in a static position. They're not going anywhere. You know, they're in a position where they can apply themselves in terms of reflection, self awareness, getting help, or just trying to lay a foundation when they get out they can then build a new life upon. But there's no opportunity to build a foundation in the prison system, not in the UK anyway. M hm.
So when you went into prison, was it just one stint in prison or did you Did you go in and out for a period of time.
No, I did one, and then I managed to avoid going back through a variety of reasons, which is we don't have time for that. But yeah, I only went the ones. But when I got out of jail, I got even worse than you know what I'd been before I was in jail.
Yeah, what was the sense of getting released?
Quite euphoric. You know, I'm happy to get home, happy to get back with my family. But yeah, the downwards spiral continued from there. You know, prisons are full of criminals, surprise, surprise. So you get phone numbers, you get connections, you learn, you know, it's a university of crime, so you know, you come out with a degree, you know in burdling techniques, stealing techniques, drug techniques, selling drugs, you know, criminal behavior.
And I just delved into that world myself personally. Wow.
Wow, And what direct what was your immediate direction? What was Did you have a plan?
Yeah, by drugs and start selling them. Wow, that was my plan. Yeah, easy money, you know, quick, easy money. Yeah. It was a bit of a weird one because not weird, it was a bit of a strange one because there was a massive shift in social culture. So when I went to when I went to jail, there was a lot of violence, a lot of hooliganism around football, a lot of gangs. That was the that was the social norm that I grew up in. And then when I out of prison, all that had stopped and the rave
scene was kicking in. So everybody was taking you know, MDMA, ecstasy and amphetamine and LSD. So the people that you know, a few short years ago that we used to fight against, we were all now going to clubs and dancing around telling each other we love them because we were off our head on drugs. Yeah, and this thing happened, this shift, this cultural shift. Actually it only took I don't know, two three years, four years, major shift socially among young people.
So yeah, the fighting stopped and the drug taking started. And that's when I got out of prison, and you know, off I went down that path in life.
Yeah. Yeah, and I'd read that you ended up with a quite a significant heroin addiction, correct. Yeah, how did that start? How did that play out? How did that feel? Excse me?
I I went down the party drug rave scene kind of for a few years. Getting out of jail. I I met somebody in my partner at the time. We had a daughter together, but I was a terrible dad to us, taking drugs, selling drugs, non committed to the relationship, you know, would disappear for days on end, you know, just off dancing around some field or some warehouse or some derelict building somewhere. That relationship, as you can imagine,
broke down. She kicked me out, and rightly so. But at that point I hit such a law, you know, the reality Now I don't know. I was in my early twenties, but I'd lived such a chaotic life even though I was in my early twenties, and it's almost like i'd lived a twenty thirty year, you know life. Everything that I'd crammed into that short few ten years. Some people wouldn't normally go through that in maybe thirty years. So it was quite intense and anyway, so the relationship
brought down. I ended up living on a couch somewhere, and it was the one drug that I swore to myself I'd never never take. So I was happy taking everything else. You know. Apparently you know that that was okay, but in my mind, I swore to myself that was the place that I'd never go. But I got to a place in life where relationally, mentally, emotionally, physically, socially, I was in such a mess that the mess that I was in was greater than my resistance to heroin.
The mess that I was in was greater than my resistance to heroin. So I gave him. You know, I just needed to suppress the mess. I needed to escape from the mess. I needed to forget about the mess, and I gave in. I smoked a little bit, and to be honest, he kind of worked to begin with, and I worked. You know, all the negative feelings and emotions and kind of mindset all disappeared till the next morning. Then we repeat the process, and then we repeat the process.
Within two weeks, I had a habit. I was addicted. Two weeks doesn't say it long. Within three weeks, I was injecting myself and I was scared of needles, you know, I didn't like going to the dentist or the doctor. Yeah, three weeks having injected myself. That was quite a decline, Quite a quick decline.
Isn't it fascinating and equally terrifying? How we can have There's part of you that knew and knows how this would play out. But then there's the part of you that's experiencing a life, and in that moment, there's the choice. Was easy to go down that path, And there would have been part of you telling a story that I'll just do this for a minute because I need to, and then I'll sort this out or whatever, and then next minute, three weeks later, you're injecting and assume it grows from there.
Yeah, one one injection at least two to four. I started selling heroin, got involved quite heavily in that lifestyle. Again, Yeah, nothing to brag about. It's just an appalling lifestyle, to be perfectly frank, but at the height of my addiction because I was selling it and I had an endless supply kind of thing. Yeah, I'm not exaggerating when I say that I would inject myself ten times a day, so all my veins collapsed, you know, my surface veins
on my body, legs, arms, feet, toes, fingers. Yeah, not a very nice place to be in.
Can you remember your lowest point? Was there? Was there a low point? Was there a tipping point?
Yeah? One of them, so barely in mind. You need to find a surface vein to inject yourself, you know, to to you know, to administer the heroin into your bloodstream. Because of my massive use you know, the surface veins on my arms, my legs, my thighs, my toes, the act to my feet because they all collapse, you can't use them to inject. But I needed a vein. I'm a raging heroin addict. So I had a bright idea. One day I found one. O great, I found a vein.
I have injected myself in parts of the male anatomy.
You're going there and I'm like, no, this.
Is not what he make a tear a man's cheek.
God. Also kind of the big story ever, it's.
Like an after dinner story, you know, you know, and it's like it's got a great tale. And my wife will look at me like, oh my gosh, here it comes again. You know, never a go moment with me, you know, And it's finding a way to attach appropriate humor when necessary, way you can to some of the choices, some of the stuff. You know. Now you'll be pleased to know that I stopped going at him very quickly because I didn't want to break it and you know, and it hurt, and it did hurt. Yeah, and it
still works because I've got children. Yeah, it's the after dinner story that you know, Donna said it quite a few times now, you know. Again, it's just it's a depiction of just how bad, you know, the things that people do, the choices that addiction drives you to do. The desperation, the pain, the horror, the indignity, the embarrassment,
the shame, you know, all that kind of stuff. But after that, I started injecting myself in my main femeral artery, which is in the neck of your leg, in your hips, which is the main artery that leaves your heart, goes down your leg and back up. It's a very very dangerous place to inject yourself, but it was better than the other one, you know kind of thing. Yeah, yeah,
just all of the above. You know that little kid year year seven, above average student across the board, with all his future ahead of him within you know, fifteen sixteen years.
That's where it got to incredible. What at what point did you decide you wanted or needed to turn it all around? And was it a want or a need?
It was both. I mean, there was a culmination of things that happened. My mum would see my daughter, who was probably five at the time. I couldn't see her on my own because I was so irresponsible and just watching her from a distance, and you know, the guilts and the regret on my part that I couldn't be a dad to it, I couldn't be responsible. You know. It was quite painful. And by the time I was twenty seven, fifteen of my school friends had sadly died
as a direct link to overdose. Fifteen of them, you know, same school uniform, same school dinners, same school playground. Number fifteen was quite what's the word. It was awful. The circumstances around it. I can't really go into it, but the circumstances around it were pretty bad. And to be honest, I didn't want to be number sixteen, to be perfectly honest. But I didn't know how to get out of it.
I didn't know if you could have been bear in mind, you know, heroine was kind of the new drug on the street kind of thing, and it had been for a few short years. So people that had got off it and left that lifestyle and were, you know, signposting other users how they can get off it. Well, there weren't anybody, you know, There wasn't anybody that had broke free and was creating a signpost path of this way to rehabilitation or this way to recover it. But yeah, just didn't want to die.
So what was your path?
It was a multifaceted path. It was I needed a rehab. I needed somewhere away from my geographical location, and I found that rehab in actually South Wales, not New South Wales, where you live Wales in the UK, which is a very green and very wet part of the UK. My Christian faith was massive in terms of having a north star, having a focal point to to help me something to focus on, something to you know, just something that doesn't shift. You know, we lived in a world where the social
shifts were quite frequent. You know, social trend social trends and shift. You know, when you've got things that are emin and flowing all the time. For me, having a faith was something that was stable and steadfast that I could fix, you know, fix my eyes on and and just keep moving forward towards and then so I've got the rehab, I've got my faith, whichever order you want
to put that in. Then what happens is the further into that path and that journey you get, you start to kind of build up some credits, you know, building my relationship with my daughters, start building my relationship with my family. You know, I get a month clean, I get two months clean, I get six months clean. You know, once you start building up some credits and you're carrying those credits, it helps you to keep on track. It helps you to keep going forward, you know, because you
don't want to give it all up. You don't want to throw it all away kind of thing. But addiction is quite deceived, deceitful. Addiction is very deceptive. You know, just once, you know, just once, that little whispering voice on your shoulder. You know, it's all right, It's only once. But I've known people come through recovery and try one or just have it once for you know, nostalgic reasons, and it's killed them. Yeah, I know quite a few people that that's happened to, and I didn't want to
be one of them. You know, I kind of enjoy living. It's quite nice, been alive. So I'm as guarded as I can bey in terms of what I do. And you know that that kind of lifestyle choices now. But yes, that was coming up to twenty seven years ago. I went into Rio, which is not a bad doom. Twenty seven years clean.
And did you did you have any dips and falls from Grace in that period or was it were pretty stead first in.
No, I've never touched heroine since, never took Heroine. I've I mean, it's been not dips like you know, going back to heroin and stuff, but it's been a tough journey. I mean, it's been an absolute flipping journey because I'm not just fighting for my freedom, I'm fighting for the freedom of those that come after me, and that primarily is my children, but then it's also people other people caught an addiction, you know. You see, I've got somebody who's ten years in front of me that I keep
in contact with. Were good friends, you know, and he, you know, he's the one that's always kind of pulling me forward from his position of thirty odd years of recovery. Whereas I can extend that same batton of hope and batton of empowerment to people coming up behind me. And as long as we keep that chain moving them, helping people, we are using what was our mess, We're turning it into a message and using it to empower people to you know, to move through recovery.
I love that miss to men. Yeah, I did always write down cool things you say. That could be a good title. I was like, Oh, from missed to a message, that's awesome. You're first, the first child you fathered at fifteen? Do you have contact with them? Did you ever?
Yeah? So about twelve years ago. Very long story short, but I decided. I spoke to my wife about it, the possibility of having a child, and she's great, she was like, great, let's find him. And I'm like, oh, oh, okay, what kind of Yeah. So we we We actually looked for him through an agency in the UK Social Services agency, but we looked for him with his biological mum. So his biological mom gave him up as well. Oh well, he was fourteen at the time his biological mum, so
I was fifteen, she was fourteen. So when the baby, when the baby was the decision was made by social services to put him in the adoption system. You know, she lost him as well.
Wow, well, and so what was what was that lock to contact him? Was he receptive?
Well, we contacted her first on Facebook, you know where you go for all life's information. Now, we contacted her and we went to an agency. It took about a year, but because we weren't because me and his mum weren't together as a couple, but we were looking together. At the end of the journey or the process, it was decided that she would contact him first if he responded, which he did. So he met his biological mom and
her side of the family first. And then he obviously wanted to meet me, and he asked his biological one about me, and she knew about my past, so she was like, you better ask him. You know, I'll let your dad tell you, you know, kind of thing. I met him twelve years ago. He was twenty five at the time. Great guy. Interesting that if any of you listeners have ever experienced this, they will understand this. But
if you haven't experienced it, you won't get it. As soon as I saw him, I loved him like the rest of my children. It wasn't formed, it wasn't built upon, it wasn't worked out, It wasn't it didn't even come through relationship. He was mine and I loved him.
And the conversation I've got goose bands that is so powerful. Well yeah, and what was what was it like for him? Did he talk like, was it yeah, Oh my god, I wish I was there.
Yeah, it was, it was. I mean, it just it's like me, you know, it just it just rolls with the punchers. It does. So when it when he when he met his mom, his biological mom, they contacted with a letter and then had a phone call. And once you know, once you get a name go on the stalker book app, you know, get on Facebook, you know, start stalking people. His biological mum's family had arranged a birthday party for her eldest daughter, which was our son's
younger sister. And you know, this was the night after that was already pre arranged and he turned up on announced. He literally just turned up at the part and said hello. You know, they obviously recognized him because they've all been on Stoker book and yeah, and that's the kind of thing that he did. But that's the kind of thing that I would do, you know, instead of messing around. You know, it's like just just rock up and roll with the punches. See what happens.
Oh wow, Well, and what's he like as an adult? What was he like? Was he like you?
Yeah, like me? And he's a bit taller than me, which the height does come from my granddad's side of the family. I have got some tall brothers. He looks is the spit double of my cousin. He is very well educated. His parents and dad, and they are his mum and dad that chose him to adopt him. You know, I've met them a few times. They were a lovely couple. My wife's met them. You know, we're not here to you know, take their place. You know, they chose him, They chose to love him and be parent him and
be parents to him. So they did a fantastic job. He's a great guy. Doesn't know when to stop, which is a bit like me. And we always have these nature nurture conversations. You know, we do speak quite a lot on the phone. It doesn't live too far away. But he's got family, he's got four children, and you know, he's got life, so we do speak a lot on
the phone. And yeah, the nature nurture. So when I meet with him and his wife and my wife, the wives are always looking at each other, rolling their eyes, might say, you know, looking at us too, and looking at them too, And how we behave and how we respond in any given situation, and the nature side of it is the fact between us in terms of our mannerisms and our just the way we process stuff, the way we do things. It far supersedes the nurturing aspective
of how he's been raised. Now obviously me and my son Dwayne, we don't really see it, but actually onlookers like our wives that know us best see it all. The time, and it's quite evident to them.
Isn't that fascinating?
That's a podcast in itself in itself, you know. But yeah, so that's just one other dynamic and facet of my life.
Just you know, yeah, that's pretty amazing. Have you written a book?
I have? Yeah?
Good, because I was If you haven't, you better because it's pretty fascinating.
I'm looking. I'm just looking at on my library here. I'm sure there is one somewhere, so I been rude. I'm looking to see the booking. Do you know what the book's called? No, the Leopard that Changed Its Space?
That's right, I remember gaze. Yeah, I feel like because I feel like I looked at that title and went, oh, that's a good title for the podcast too.
I thought we had one.
Oh and when did you write that? What was it like to write that story?
Twenty six Well I started in twenty fourteen. Yeah, I started speaking to young people in prisons and schools before them, young people that were struggling, disengaged with the studies in prison, you know. So I started doing that in two thousand and seven. I kind of always had the idea in the back of my head for a book and not to be become an author. You know. It wasn't about the ego or the prestige. You know, it is about
you know, that book never gets tired. I do so if I could write and conduct into the story, that would you know, continue spreading the story of recovery. That book can go further than I ever can. And it never stops. You know. One person reads it, passes it on and passes it on, you know, and it's the achievement. You know. Nobody in my family's ever wrote a book, But why can't I? You know, I'm that kind of person. You know, you tell me what I can't do, and I'll tell you what I can.
Yeah.
No, kind of that kind of mindset. So starting in twenty fourteen, it probably took all together, it probably took two years. But I've got a wife and two young kids. I've got a business that I'm running, I've got life and responsibilities. The World Cup football tournament was on, so that took six weeks away from my writing because I do like in football, so I think all together, and I didn't want to rush it either. You know, it
was quite therapeutic to write the chapters and things. Can you know, remember and recall some of the experiences in life. And it was important as well. And I would say this is not just for myself, but for anybody that thinks of writing a book. It's it's okay to show your scars, but it's not okay to show your wounds. Yeah, it's okay to show your scars, but it's not okay
to show you wounds. Because if you're writing a book from a place that you haven't healed, you can actually start to cover people with blood that haven't cut you. I know that's quite a graphic.
No, I love that.
Analogy that that book has actually been very kind to people. The book is not a blame game to other people. I'm not angry, I'm not hurting. I'm just telling the narration to empower and help people to connect with people, to relate to people. You know that actually, do you know what? If he can overcome certain things in life, if he can roll with the punches, if he can get back up after being knocked down again. And that's what the book is. It's not about looking at me,
look how good I am. It's not about that. It's about listen, been through some shit, taking some punches, taking some low punches, taking some punches below the belt, you know what I mean, some illegal punches, you know, to use the boxing metaphor. But the fact is, and again you know, this is, this is my opinion. But I've got a little saying. Listen, if you're alive, if you're breathing, and if you're not dead, you're on the winning side.
You still you've still got a chance. Okay, until you're dead, until you stop breathing, until you're not with us anymore, you still have the potential to change, to recover, to grow. You know, I played the victim a lot, and to be fair, I was. I was the victim of many things, some of the things I haven't mentioned to you on this podcast, but some things that I mentioned in the book.
Been through some really not nice stuff. And you know, so I'm responding from a place of respect for other listeners, for other people, But I played the blame game. It was always somebody else's fault. It was always, you know, because of X, Y and Z. But then somebody one said to me, but every time you point the finger, there's always three pointing back at you. You know, you've got to take personal responsibility for what part you've played now.
You know, when I was much younger, there was no responsibility that I could have taken because I was a victim. But when you just when you round it all up your life story, when you come to that place of I need to change, I want to change, I will change, you know, not just a need to, not just I want to, but I will change. You know, it's changing the narration in your head. It's changing your confession, it's
changing the words that you speak over yourself. I totally lost my train of thought now because this is what happens with me quite often in the club.
Might do it all the time.
Great, we're in good company.
You're in good company.
I anyway, back to the book, so something two years we did a print run, but most of the people that became beneficiaries of the book of people in prison. So we did we you know, we have sold some. We have yeah, we have sold some, but primarily ten eleven thousand copies have gone into the prison estates or you know, secure accommodation again to help people just see that they can change like I changed. You know, if you if you're breathing, if you're not dead, if you're
still alive, do you want to change you know? Yeah, but you know I've been punched here, I've been punched there, and you know I've been knocked down. Yeah. But are you still alive? Yeah? Well you're still on the winning side. And I don't want to sound callous or quite harsh, but do you know what recovery? You can't pussy foot around it. You can't you know, Molly coddle or put cotton wool. You know, you've got anybody that wants to recover from anything, and it doesn't just have to be drugs,
can be anything. Do you want to move on from this? Yeah? But this? Yeah? But that? Yeah, but this, yes, but that? No, no, no, Do you want to move you know, let's forget that's foliage. Do you want to move on from this? Do you want to leave it where it is? Do you want to leave it in the past? Do you want to
become victorious and overcome? That's the question that we start with, you know, and then we address all the other stuff as as you journey that recovery in whatever way, shape or form, you know that lands in a person's world.
So good, can my listeners grab a copy of that book and anything else that you've got to share or where they can find you and follow you.
Lived Experience Speakers, Lived Experience Speakers. That's a website. It's got a QR code and contactors if they want to copy of the book and follow what we're doing on Insta, on Facebook, LinkedIn. You know, we put out reels, we show what we're doing. We've got a diary on the website that shows where we're speaking and to how many young people or staff training, or a variety of things, sorry, a variety of arenas or events that we're speaking at.
And the book is is about how we've how I've rolled with the punches, how I've you know, journeyed my recovery. And we always attribute recovery to a drug addiction, but recovery is anything. It can be health, it can be grief, it can be bereavement, it can be separated, you know, it can be anything. Mine's primarily addiction, drug addiction, but there are other areas, you know that I had to recover my dignity, my self, respects, my mental health, my
emotional health, you know. So it's multifaceted, and it empowers people to be victorious. It empowers people to be overcomers that we are a profound piece of work as human beings, you know we are. We've got to give ourselves some credit, and we've got to refrain from playing the victim, even when we have been the victim. And I said that
respectfully as somebody who's been a victim. You know, for me, it was about my narration, the words I was speaking, my mindset and my determination to roll with said punchers and change and then I can be a voice back to other people. And that's what lived experience is. It's giving the person with the lived experience a voice, whether it's myself, whether it's my wife or other people that we kind of work or partner or collaborate. But it's giving,
it's empowering our voice. And it's not being ashamed, because victims often feel shame, but actually that shame needs to be put back on the perpetrator. Is that shame needs to be put back on the shelf or in the place where it came from. And there is no shame. Do you know what. We've all made choices in life,
some more than others. We've all done some stuff that we're quite embarrassed about or a little bit shamed of or actually, you know, we'd rather not talk about, you know, but I think the more people are vocal, I think, you know, people like yourself doing podcasts and just creating a healthy platform for a voice, not an opinion, you know, not opinionating people. You know, a healthy place with a
healthy voice, with a healthy perspective. And that perspective might not be everybody's, you know, there's always a different of opinions. You know, this is my opinion. These are my life lessons, these are my you know, steps of recovery for me. They've worked for me. I'm unique, I'm individual. I've got my own take on life. I do try and keep it as balanced and respectful of other people. However, it's
my recovery, you know, it's my journey. It's it's you know, when when you're getting punched around in a boxing ring, it's not pretty getting back up, do you know what I mean? You might be fitting and sweating, there might be a bit of blood going all other people, you know, those that are watching those bystanders, But it doesn't mean that how that person gets back up is wrong just because I don't agree with it. Well, he should have
got up on his left leg. You should have got up on his right leg, should do you know what I mean. It's like somebody getting up, He's never going to fit the mold. For everybody that anybody that is looking to pursue recovery, that's entering into recovery, they've got to find what works for them, you know, by all means. Listen to these podcasts. Take little bits from here to little bits from there. Gather information from anywhere and everywhere that's good and sound, but that has a track record.
You know, Recovery is not a science. Recovery is not an intellectual property. Recovery is flipping hard. It's dirty, it's sweaty, it stinks at times. You know, it's not really nice. But we can do it. You know, we all can do it. So the book and the reason that I'm very vocal and you know, I speak up about my life experiences, my lived experiences, is to empower people because if I don't do it, who will? Or if somebody
else doesn't do it, who will? So you know, we're not doing it for glory self satisfaction of sorts, because you know, talking about some of the things that I do, it's like putting you dirty washing up on the washing line for everybody to see. Yeah, you know, can you get the analogy that actually, you know what, it's a very thing that people like myself and others do. It's a very brave and courageous thing. We're not doing it
for self satisfaction or glorification of ourselves. You know. We see human beings as powerful and profound and special and pressures and we want to help. We want to help where we can because the government funding local authority funding is minimal at best, whether in the UK or Australia or Tasmania or other countries, it's minimal at best. So we've got to play our part.
I love it. I love what you do, I love what you share, I love how you talk. Thank you so much for bringing parts of your story to this show. And I'll have a link to your website and the show notes so everyone can go and grab that book and hear all the gory bitch that you haven't told us. And yeah, I wish you all the best, keep up the great work.
Thank you so much, thank you, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Said it's now and never I got fighting in my blood.
Got it quite a coast got it. Little gur gotta lot of coast got it.