That's how y'all were producing this record. We just on the front end you just any have nice amps, then you're gonna have the songs and the performance. How do you celebrate it on one record? Mope. I'm still celebrating it in the live. Yeah, that's a good thing. That's got to life down the cheap and yeah, granny. There was some aspect of our experiences in the music industry that did really want to revisit.
I just say that it's just the process is very organic. I mean, these guys write amazing music. I have a wonderful palette and I just go in and I listen and it's pretty much whatever comes through. And I usually kind of like to stick with that because it feels most natural. When people ask me how to make it in the music industry or how to make money, I say get a lot of green.
Alright, so today we're joined by the members of 3rd Secret, a new rock supergroup of all supergroups featuring Krist Novoselic of Nirvana, Matt Cameron of Pearl Jam, Kim Thayil of Soundgarden, John Bubba, Duprea Void, Jillian Raye and Jennifer Johnson as well.
The band just released your second album. It's called the 2nd 3rd Secret, which I thought was a great name. One of the favorite songs that stood out to me, Reckless Room, the first song on the record, where you really hear the components of all the bands coming to the end of the year. I think it's such an example of all the different styles.
You can hear Nirvana on that. You can hear your signature bass coming into strong. Your vocals are incredible. And you're just shredding all over this track. Well, Thay's Brian for having us on Rockbeat, yes. He's excited to be here in Reckless Room. I think Kim would be the best to talk about that. And there's a good story behind that riff.
At least two or three of their...well, the main riffs in there are instrumentally I came up with them, but two of them were part... were connected with a couple of other, or rocking aggressive riffs that were... was an instrumental sort of rough demo that I did with Sound Guard. It never became anything. They never ended up being any lyrics for it, or any final arrangement. It was sort of a provincial thing, a provisional sort of arrangement that we had.
That was...we released something called Rough Riff Raff, which was like a bonus track on a super unknown anniversary record. And it was just something that we found that was that, just this instrumental thing that we're just a sketch. And so we just put it on this anniversary thing. I shared it with Chris a few years ago, and he immediately shared it with Jillian, and she wrote these lyrics for it. But the arrangement was still...this provisional, dynamic thing that was moving around.
I put the...I downloaded it off with YouTube, of like a Sound Guard in B side or C side, and then I just edited it. And then Jillian and I started working on it and arranging it, and we got a rough sketch. We took out a couple instrumental sections, and then I wrote a new one, and then Chris came up with this guitar of the acoustic guitar intro, the finger picking intro,
which sort of led you into the major themes of the song anyways. And the feel of the instrumental riff definitely changed and has the character of this group of players and writers. As a matter of fact, it starts out that with Chris's finger picking acoustic style, I tried to remember the Fahey, the guitars, the...Fahey...the O'Carte, Bert Jans.
And then Baba contributes this...some of the leading intros at all for Chris's acoustic, sort of the ambient sort of...excuse me to Ebo, and then there's some backward stuff that the engineer came up with an idea to use.
And Brandon and Nate, oh, that's right, they came up with an idea to like this swix, this piece I did, and just kind of make it a backward thing, and it worked really great with what Baba was writing at the intro. And it became its own thing. It definitely has the characteristics and qualities of third secret.
One of the things that there's a lot of conversation about when it comes to rock records is that, you know, there's so much discussion about people don't make rock records the way they used to. And when I listen to this third secret album, I hear these elements of your traditional, very much, in your face, rock and roll that isn't heavily reliant on technology, and it's very much focused on the musician shit.
I want to ask, what is the name third secret V? Where does that come from? It's just a name, like, there's third secret. It kind of like, there's third secret of Fatima, but that's a whole other thing. And then we're just third secret, and it just kind of had a ring to it. You know, all bad names are, it can just be anything really. Yeah, and so, you know, we're just third secret and it was kind of like, I like the Navy. Well, thank you very much.
Yeah, the thing that really struck me too was because, you know, when I looked at my phone, I was watching Queens of the Stone Age or something, and imagine my surprise when Chris sent me an email, and I thought it wasn't real or something where I was being spooked, because you're just very nonchalant about it. Hey, I'll come on rock feet.
I'm like, I'm not tricked, because, you know, I've listened to your music for my entire life. And you've won an international lottery. Yeah, I did. Well, like you did, yeah, just send your bank information, like, yeah, Bitcoin and all coin and all. He's a Nirvana and a prince. You know, this is what happened with the production of third secret. Like, I started to collect vintage, no, even microphones, like he's German microphones from the 60s.
Wow. And 50s. And this was like in 2000 and 18 and Michael Dean, you know, the band, bomb and Michael, yeah, he himself from Cisco. Well, he's huge libertarian and he's, he was selling me on this Bitcoin thing in crypto. You got to do it. You got a Bitcoin crypto. And I'm like, oh, okay, he goes, I know someone who sell sell you some Bitcoin. It wasn't a lot. It was 300 bucks. A Bitcoin. Like, all right, I'll buy this Bitcoin.
And then it was like it went up to 50, 60,000 dollars. And I'm like, chitchee, and I sold it. And I bought a nice, a noem in microphone with it because I could use it. It'll keep its value. I could just sell it for as much as I paid for it. It's way better than some kind of cryptocryptocurrency wallet. It just makes more sense. Right. Then I got the bug because it was the lockdown. I never really paid attention recording studios.
Like I would go in and play my base and play music and things and write songs, but I was never like a gear head, like technology or anything. And I know Steve Albini offered to sell me his noem in microphones from in you to row. And I was really, no thanks. And what?
Yeah, I didn't. I didn't take a moment. I should have got. I'm just you. He wasn't that gear head, but I was in a gear head. And then Alpeny's a master. He said he knows that stuff inside and out. But then I grew into it. And then I then I bought some noem in microphones. And then here Paul Allen who built like Molpop. We're here at Molpop. Well, then when he died, that was like huge loss per Seattle. And then worked with the museum. And I somehow
it was just that day. I was a state sale. It was I was the first in his mic locker. And so I got it. I got a really cool collection of like noem in vintage noem in and other like German microphones and things. And we use them on third secret. So like that production is basically vintage noem in German microphones, Austin microphones and and like nice preamps into like an old Macintosh like a 15 year, 20 year old Mac and 15 year Macintosh computer. And it sounds great. That's all you need.
That's how y'all were producing this record. We just on the front end, you just any have nice amps. Then you're going to have the songs and the performance. You know, you got to have the performance and we just like to play together. So we did this first record. That was like the lockdown record. And that was there's a long story to want to hear it. I do. I want to talk about the that song and that record that that is is my favorite.
I have a video. I yeah, so I choose me. We all might I choose me here at Mo Pog. I have been wearing that song out the live. She has studio. That's that's the one. The video we reported here. And then we we did that.
That song was like I was cleaning out. It was a lockdown again. I go, I had a lot of time on my hands. And so I was like cleaning out these closets and I would find these VHS tapes. And again on the old Macintosh, I had this app and I would digitize some cool things that I found on these all theHS tapes. And then just throw away. I didn't think that was on there. It was kind of cool.
And then I found these CDRs and one just said Seattle, 2001 Seattle jams. And it was Kim and Bubba and I and Alfredo Hernandez. From Queens of the study. Right. I was watching when you emailed me. Yeah. So we were jamming a lot about 20 years ago and just a lot of this through have a lot of ideas and that just kind of got shell because other projects, you know, ensued.
And so I digitized it again on like a G4 Mac or something. You know, just kind of like it's all work. I like using this old stuff. If it works. And then I sent the files to Kim and Bubba. And they're like, you want to jam. That's what Kim's like. This is cool. So we went. I went up to Seattle and then lo and behold. It was on mad. Had some studio time there. And so it was like us for. And we were jamming. And then and then that riff from I choose me was on that CDR.
And from how long ago, 2001 amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. And so we started jamming that riff. And then I took it back to deep river down on the compound. And Jillian, she just did some vocal phrasing. We get some edits on it and rearranged it. And we had this. The sun. And that's pretty much the song that you hear.
And then we added this. We came together and we added this bridge. And so then the bridge part. And then Jillian came up to Seattle. And then we we started jamming on it. And it was, you know. And then there was a lot of mature people had riffs and we were just making things up on the spot. And so that he's a he's a songwriter in his old writing. He had he had songs.
And then some of the material on the first on the first third secret. That was going to be giants in the trees. Yeah. And so we just kind of like transition Jillian and I and Jennifer, we transition from giants in the trees to third secret. So that that first record. And that first record is a lot of technology. Again, it was Jack and Dino, right. And his pro tool skill, the bridge. Yeah, he did bleach. He did early sound garden.
Yeah, yeah. So he's, you know, we've been working with him for like 35 years. And so we just put this record together. So the second third secret is more of the band. That's all that lockdown stuff is behind us. So we were, we were coming, we just came together for these sessions and we busted out the nice microphones. And we didn't really waste any time like he just really worked. Get these songs down.
But you all have very hands on with every aspect of this band, which I love. What's the philosophy behind that? There is, there is some aspect of our experiences in the music industry that didn't really want to revisit. Right. Right. When money starts, when money becomes involved, there's a lot of, there's just players that crawl out from under the rock. And we just didn't really want to deal with that. We just, we wanted to keep it low key and have it be music and have it be fun.
And, and not worry about. We had to have a lot of people count to lawyers and managers and press. But. And it was locked out. So we really have to. Right. So then as the material progressed and we started, you know, throwing everything together, running new material. And it's definitely this, this enthusiasm that was developing for the project and the band that kind of required a little bit more involved in like, you know, doing this interview with you, for instance.
And so we still have that resistance. But also we also understand that where we're at, probably necessitates some degree of promotion and support to get it out there to keep it. And we're going to keep the whole thing motivated and fun and interesting. It's a lot of it's an incredible luxury as far as I'm concerned because I'm like, with Nirvana, I'm in the T-Shirt business. Right. That's a great way of putting it.
I was reading this article in the ship op-ed in the Chicago Tribune that my friend and colleague Bill, Bill Redpath wrote about Illinois's horrible ballot access laws with third parties. And then the ad sense is this picture of this girl in Nirvana, Beanie, which is selling coffee. It's just really weird. But anyway, so it's just like just having the luxury like, yeah, we can just make these records.
And then we just we can drop them whenever we want. Right. And that we have yet to play a live show. Okay. So so Jillian, you know, no, no. And then so Matt, you know, where's Matt Canrad? Right. He's all over the place. He's in he's in Pearl Jam. He's out playing with Pearl Jam right now. Right. So it's just kind of, you know, it's not like this is by design or we're like just prevent independent, you know, like it's just a lot of it.
It's just our circumstances and the luxuries afforded and just the way we have a rope and pulley system. We kind of send material down out of our tree for you. That's a great. That's actually pretty accurate. Yeah. I love that. What did it take to get off, you know, a band off the ground back when you were starting? And how does that? What's the difference to what that requires now? This or the other bit or anything. Any any any bands because you're you're you've lived your circumstances.
It's just like you're in your early 20s and you can sleep on a concrete floor. You can go drive in a van all day. You can just drink beer all night and hang out in club night after night. It's and you're just not, you know, I was an industrial painter like I painted factories. And like so I left that and it was like, yeah, I was happy to leave it. I mean, you know, I've still got those skills where I can paint. But that was a different those were that was 40 35 40 years ago.
You're young. There's less demand on your time. You know, there's no there's no family or kids or or career. Some other occupational demands or where you're just out of that headspace where you can just go play one night stands in clubs night after my. Yes, can't this is your different person. You're just older. Right. I can older person is just as it makes sense. I'm not going to go hang on bars of these 20 somethings. Right. The landscape for music has changed so much.
And in some ways now rock there's a lot of conversation about the current state of rock music where it's not as culturally relevant as it once was. And I don't know why that is. And I know there's I have my own feelings on why that is. But I'm curious what your thoughts are about the state of rock now given that y'all have such an important impact in shaping this music. I can take it. I mean just you know in like 1972 actually 1973 50 years ago like black Sabbath put out a record.
Okay, and it was just like seminal like heavy music and it was they sold a lot of records and that was part of the culture. But in 1923 what kind of music was there which was 50 years for. Right. And so now 50 years later it's kind of like. Things haven't really changed that much right isn't it isn't it a music. It's always they have I mean who was listening to music and not from 1923 in nineteen sevens right.
Like ragtime style music. Never did he need got some dancer microphones they just had these you know. So there's there's that going on I mean there's more competition for your entertainment dollar that's my never one thing right there. There's so many different genres and some genres of music there's just TV TV was three networks you know back in 72 and out. I remember now it's now it's cable and streaming and add and then the. Yeah, it was born a streaming source of VCR DVDs. Um. Video games.
Yeah you did too. The same DVDs DVDs are obsolete but they were they were they're part of the expansion of the the confidence. That's what came up. Yeah, but you know VCRs too. And he just different ways in which people can spend their time entertaining themselves and work or create. And so they're just different different different tools different formats different audiences different ways to market.
And so just being in a rock band was one genre amongst many different things that you can do to hone in on what your interests are. There's there's there's there were there were fewer in the 60s. It's at a fewer young person. You know, I guess baby boomer than right and a fewer and you want to identify with your with your partners and and and deal with issues of courtship and and team building all that.
I mean the clothes you wore the dances you did at the rock you listen to were all components of that there's so many more things are components of that. You know, and it culture has changed and it is dynamic and people just need to get used to the fact that things go away and things change and people have different interests. Right. But that's why we don't this fewer people is in the Scott Chopton now than and they were back then.
I mean, video games are huge. Yes, I had a good I had a good friend who was a rock writer in the 90s and Jeff Gilbert was also a fan of professional wrestling. And he would rock record sales are dropping. He's like, it's like pro wrestling. He says like it's like the new rock. It's like everyone's spending money. I'm going to see those shows that I went to one and this is packed. It was like a big, like, like, Estonia or whatever. It's just Jesus.
Full. So yeah, I don't know, but I think I agree with that. That's my primary thing is that you have your TikToks, your Instagrams, all of the social media. Now you're adding the metaverse. You're seeing what Apple selling now where you're going to strap a computer onto your face and it's going to change your reality. I don't really like that kind of stuff and I am a techie for sure. But I do think it's had a big impact on rock. I spend a lot of time thinking about this because rock music.
There's a lot of conversations about where a lot of the stuff sounds so similar. And I also think that people are hesitant to really take risks now because of maybe sort of the social climate where now you have social media. Do you all feel that where maybe you are less apt to take creative risk because of sort of the judgment that's out there in the world?
You know, I've been online since 1992. And so I'm used to being a successful boy. Maybe 1993, 93 maybe. I got an Apple. I was on like a dial of modem and I was using that and everyone that worldwide web and browser, Mozilla browser and all that is coming on. And I got exposed to that kind of stuff that flamin' stuff a long time ago. And there's just any more. I'm just like, they realize it's like all the loudest voices on the internet are just like 5% of the people.
That's very true. So I've been listening to Newsmashing Pumpkins. I tell them I ate them. I can't pronounce it but I know the record. I really like it. It's a compelling record. Yeah. It's really good. It's interesting. It moves. It didn't move a lot. It's lush sounding. Right on. They've always been great writers. They've always been great writers. You know, primarily Billy.
Yeah. I mean, Gish is one of those. That's just that album. It's like like Bleach. You know, it's one of those records where it comes out. Everyone's talking about it. You go to busy your friends. Like, it's like, do you have Gish? Yes. And they throw that on. Or that's what I don't think those skills, you know, be able to create a person and to write.
I don't think that disappears. And I think you know, you still have all these creative chops. I believe I do Mac does. You know, obviously, Boba and Billy does. Yeah. That doesn't go away. And so, pumpkins are, are they're not like a some idea band or some kind of persona band. It's just like, now it's music. Yeah. Right. It's like, I'm sure steamy wonders. Still, I mean, what we we'd heard growing up that he wrote a song, at least one song every day. Just as an exercise.
Just, so I'm sure he's still he's placed got a huge body of work and material selling a Stevie Wonder record may not be as easy these days as it would have been in the. Yes. Like the 70s early 80s, it's selling a smashing pumpkins or Nirvana or some record may not be as easy now as it was in like the early 90s. But well, probably because some of those bands are around anymore, but I'm glad that smashing pumpkins are around and are able to, you know, carry on that sort of towards.
If all of the things were the same, let's say if the grunge movement itself kicked off in 2023 and that's where music was today, but the technology landscape was where it was right now. Do you think that Nirvana and Sound Garden would have reached the same levels in today's industry? If the culture itself was moving into grunge, would it be as big?
If we had to say references that we had at well, you know, and I'll tell you why, because what happened like in 1990 water, 1990, 1990, there was no rock record. Like even in the top 10 or number one, like Roth was was was pretty cliche. It was like the band had been made some good, they made some good music. There was some good bands, but it was rock music needed, needed something new. They did have, you should have. Motley crews and Bon Jovies and Poisons are doing really well.
Kind of the roses, but now they were doing really well. But it kind of was, you know, it was, I don't know, it just seemed like there was, there was like something in the air. And then overnight there was just a new kind of rock music, but it was just kind of rock music. Anyway, like Nirvana was, you know, we like the Beatles and Black Flag and Black Sabbath and punk rock. We were really like in a punk rock, but we weren't punk rock ideologues.
Because remember the 80s, how they were like ideologues? Yeah. And then they would like, they would burn all their like rock records. Because that was a false god and no suit is false somewhere, false prophets. All right, cult. What's that? All right, cults. Yeah, it was a cult. The true god is punk rock. And then we were just like, well, I kind of like this plaque Sabbath or Led Zeppelin record. Yeah. The aros with right there, and why would I want it to start away?
And so we kind of ran with it. Then Black Flag came along and they, they, like punk rock was just really like, just kind of, you know, one, two beat, pop, pop, pop, pop. And then Black Flag comes along and it's just like my war. Well, they were just like that up until my war. That's what I mean. But that record came out with Seminole. They're not kind of changed everything. Like, like then Henry Rollins had the long hair. And then the meat puppets grew their hair out.
Yeah, the meat puppets were, the meat puppets are doing like Neil Young kind of stuff. Yeah. And so then it just seemed like there was, there were no limits. Like, there were, they, these rules of like what should be punk rock. And so that's what influenced Seattle music. And so, you know, we just, and then we were just into like songs and music. And that's how there was this strident sort of polarization between metal and punk, which it just seemed like one more pointless thing to do.
Like these suburban white guys and these suburban white guys. I mean, they had so much more in common, but there was definitely this. There's some weird separation. The very stride yet that punk, you know, ethos. Kill them all was like, I remember listening to that. Oh, yeah, high school. Yeah. It was just came out like this is punk rock. But it was punk. It was my punk rock friends. It turned me on to two fasts for love by Molly Crew. It's my punk rock friends. It brought over Kill them all.
You know, it's because it was Seattle. And I think there were people who had, we all had, you've grown up in even growing up in Chicago. I had some affinity for metal and hard rock. And, but then I became punk and I try to throw away stuff of my youth. Like, I'm not a, I'm not a kid anymore. I don't listen to this stuff, you know. And you start listening to it. New things are coming out. But then by the time I was like the earlier mid 80s in Seattle, just this pointless thing you've had.
I would belong here guys of spandex like you this and hating punk because it wasn't musical. And then the punk rock guys hating metal because it wasn't, it wasn't already in a smart, you know. And it's like, the metal guys would aid the punk rock. But really, like they would throw eggs at them. Which is crazy because metal guys got shit when they were kids. And they were like, yeah. And it was like some guys in a Camaro. And they teamed by and then they threw punk, they threw eggs at the rock.
It was, it was, yes. So, so silly. So it's so stupid. Yeah, that's just so crazy to look back and think on, you know, if you had that sort of grunge versus, and I think a lot of that's an narrative based where it's like, did the glam kill or did crunch kill glam or what? Yeah, probably, you know, that's like something. You know, I mean, he said it kind of did. It kind of did. It kind of did. I mean, there's a lot of things. There's so many things that happen.
There was a revolution and then it was meet the new boss, same as the old boss. It was the major labels came in and then we had this thing called alternative music. Which I call alternated music. This is a different way to mark it. I'll try to, this is a new rock music. But they had no, we still have this rock music. You guys are the alternative because so we can still have it have it both ways. They could have their cake and eat it too.
I think the alternative thing, for what I remembered seemed like, it seemed like the alternative scene just was less likely to, less likely to have a, we did its culture, things that might have been perceived as racist or sexist, which was popular. We may have raised its head in other aspects of pop culture. And alternative seemed to watch the direct things a little bit more inclusively. And it was a little bit smarter, it was often be politically not necessarily as challenging musically.
But for guitarist, it definitely was very important to listen to Slayer or Metallica and get your chops and some is up on her or Sabbath. But at the same time, the crazy stuff that admitted men and meet puppets are doing were also. You're a musician whether you're a metalhead or punk rocker. You're going to appreciate the entire work of Deep Oon as well as the guitar work of Hammond Headfield. And there's just no reason to have that weird schism. But when you're young, you kind of feel it.
There's this hostility and these weird exchanges. But at some point, Sandler said, I grew up with this, grew up with that, it's all kind of part of who we are and stuff grew as a rock. Do you ever read him Maximum Rock and Roll? We were kind of into Maximum Rock and Roll. What I loved about it was its ability to introduce us to new scenes and new music from particular communities. Like what's going on in Tucson, what's going on in Seattle?
Mark Arm from Mudhuddy and Green River at the time in the Sirep and Green River would submit a lot of scene reports while what's going on in Seattle. But then there was also other articles about these cultural attributes of being a proper punk that is, Oh, come on. And then some of it was like anarchist. It's some of that. And some of it was like NPR, like Democrat. And there was cool stuff like, there are things that were respected, certainly about straightage or veganism.
And a lot of that expanded. And thankfully, a lot of that was presented as an option for people, you know, it culturally in their lives. And I think that's great. But I think there was something strikingly inflexible about it. And same with metal culture. I had relatives or metal kids who just couldn't stand punk rock. And they thought of punk rock as some alternative thing they saw an MTV with funny hair.
Sure. And then punk rock people just refused to listen to metal because they're the goons who throw eggs at you. Some kind of evolutionary psychological manner. Yeah. It's just these different groups out group. Jill, I wanted to ask you too because your vocals really stand out in this music. I just thought, you know, especially on this record, you really nailed your vocal takes. I just wanted to hear something about your influences. Thanks. Thank you for saying that.
Yeah, I listen to pretty much all music. And I would say that it's just the process is very organic. I mean, these guys write amazing music. I have a wonderful palette. And I just go in and I listen. And it's pretty much whatever comes through. And I usually kind of like to stick with that because it feels most natural. Then we'll all listen to it and usually I'll have like, I don't know, I could write like 20 lines to like each part.
And then like, Chris and I, we did a lot of listening together and kind of when we were doing the vocal recording. And oh, that's catchy. And just kind of put what sounds, you know, most that grows with the music and gets the feeling across. I really think people don't make like rock records like this anymore where it's a lot of the stuff that sounds the same today. I genuinely love like I love that hard rock metal, you know, sound, but there is a lot of similarity to it.
But when I was growing up, you know, and the music that would come out where what was considered rock was so different. Like in some ways, you don't have Southern rock doesn't really exist anymore because it's country music now. And the way genres are classified. You could dig up some of your old ratings slab records. Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's just, but it's the way me classify genres is extremely subjective in my opinion. I think so. Yeah, I mean, it's really open to interpretation.
And now country is kind of corner of the market on Southern rock where how is I could name mainstream country artists that are heavier. And I use that to terms objectively, but then Leonard Skinnerd, but Leonard Skinnerd is certainly a rock band. Rock's presence, I like 100% agree about that. We used to say the 90s, we refer to what was popular in country, we'd often say, oh, it's this rock from 50 years ago.
And that was a general perspective that, you know, in 15 years, the country will be, we'll be writing, doing music that sounds like what the rock is these days.
But the same thing with, I mean, all the innovation that happened, you know, with, with rap and hip hop, it's like what took off specifically what, what revived Eros Miss career, what, what, what helped, you know, propel propel rap in the mainstream was people often cite that, that, that a, that a run DMC Eros Smith collab on, on walk this way. But prior to that, I mean, Rick Rubin's production working with a, you know, public enemy run DMC and the B.C. boys.
I mean, that's like this, you know, they're just, just Zeppelin and ACD, or Zeppelin Riffs all over that place and Carrie King from Slayer plays on it. In 1986, I was in a record store and a post, but it was, it was cheap, racing, raising ill, raising hell. What is that run DMC record that had the block run it? It was like that, that riff came on that drundee and then it was that it was Joe Perry doing walk this way, right?
Yeah. And then he started rapping over it. And I was like, if since I walked up to the person in the counter, like, what is this? It's like it's run DMC. And I would, I bought it on the spot. And I still have that LP. I bought it. And I loved the whole record. I would listen to the whole record from one side, flip it over and over again. It's so weird. I bought ordered rap, I heard blondie rapture. I did like that. I love rapture. And then great baseline. And I left, how could I look blondie?
And then, but that's what when I got that was a good introduction for me into rap music. It was some white kid back in Chicago growing up, you know, sugar hill gang came out and my girlfriend at the time at the late 70s was really in a sugar hill gang and rewrappers delight and stuff. So she would get these 12 inch singles. And I was so much you have already knew at that time.
It's so much just happening in 79 that I was just like all this meaning, you know, punk rock and industrial. That's where my head was turning. But fortunately I had a girlfriend cycle of chimpanzee out, you know. And so there's a lot happening there. I mean, there's there's hard rock metal disco and then punk and then alternative and then that new way things spread out there. Then then Kip Hopper's kind of starting out and I only have two years.
And so I kind of went this way that facilitated my guitar playing, which was a lot of like more like more likely listen to the dev on the remolens. And then that's until the 80s and it really was here like the BC boys or run DMC and you hear the distorted guitars. So I hear you could be I remember in a cookie bus they sample a that cheap trick riff, you know, on cheese on it. That's on the band.
And you could step competition. I think like she's right at cookie plus that EP they sample that in the song she's on it. So I know that that kind of that kind of worked in from there. You know, public enemy and and here being a lot of team and stuff. I've been a lot of rap. In the 80s. I don't really anymore. The key. When I was cleaning out that my closet and I conned all these VHS tapes and there was just hours of like MTV on there.
And it was as you did or what just old videos old VHS because that's I had to tape them before. Yeah, well somebody came to them. I didn't tape them, but there was a ton of public enemy on there. And the thing is like it was like 1988, 1989 and like public enemy. This is before there was woke and they were in well gruy that the difference with that kind of woke and what's going on today is public enemy.
And I think that's what I think about a sense of humor. Yeah, their videos all I was had some kind of gag going. Yeah. And then it was the classic straight man comedian between play with Chuck. Right. It's just you know, I mean so that there were really colorful.
They had a hard hating their message is really, really good. And they had a sense of humor. You were so lacking what happened to the comedy film. You know where where are these sort of comedy tomes that you look at and you you're you're you feel you're running out of breath because you're laughing. So I was what time like I don't watch TV. I was in a bar or something and the Simpsons come on. And all of a sudden there's like what is this sad gals on and like oh my god.
Was spoofing your home or is in the band sad sad guy. I have to see all my god. I'm going to anyway. You got to check it out anyway and like oh. And but if you look at your vomit interviews and somebody we there was we they were reviewing all these it getting your bond interviews like some label person or manager person was. He goes you know there's a thing about your body like this sad heavy band but I'm almost every interview you guys are laughing the whole time yes. Well I mean very good.
I'm having fun. Like I mean, they became frown garden at some point because. Because we're more more rose and dark and always the boy. I still call him beer garden. But our early interviews were definitely you know this smart ass tongue and cheat drunk and stuff and we didn't take a lot of stuff seriously we didn't take MTV too seriously or many of the interviews. We we have prostrated ourselves at the at the record industry in a alter right I think we had a lot of contempt. I saw the lockers.
I want to say something else about what Jillian's vocals yes is that there is a really dip your rare skill that singers have to be able to. It's pretty your singer songwriter music I I don't see that is I think I see I think the most involved thing about that or is really lyricism but musically. It's never impressed me as much as the kind of stuff that say Robert plant would do right I mean to come up the kind of melodies yes and and a really voice which is which you.
You got to work on that and it's just handed to you and then to come up the kind of melodies he did wrap around these really interesting guitar recipe page came up with or. That's impressive and it became really aware of that working with Chris Cornell and and personally has that that skill I mean it is especially I believe bleaches blew me away this cool moving and bending guitar riffs and he's writing any singing and he's playing it.
Of course some of some of the things we wrote were tough for Chris to sing and play at the same time until he started becoming becoming more prominent songwriter so he would be able to write things that he could sing and play on guitar if he was playing guitar. But he had that skill as a drummer that's why we loved what if you recall Chris was our drummer to begin with so psych hero play base I play guitar.
I saw you play in 1986 at Gorilla Garden Chris was a drummer and he had like this new wave on the house on block of Seagulls hairdo amazing yeah like shaved on the side he had this kind of like he's bangs that pointed down and they were. And then something happened where you were pissed at the sound man or the monitor guy and you're flipping them off and you out on those.
I had really long hair but I had to cut it to get a job you know which was with but I got one couple of I got a job working with a. Mark and Bruce green river Bruce for whether or not Mark are not how do you we're working the same place and they did the. Our boss is in care how our hair was I just cut my hair that I got the job say okay not going to cut anything I'm not going to shave anymore we're talking about the vocal.
And going back to the vocals so Chris is our drummer and and he was the primary lyricist hero hero role young motor or little lyrics and we were writing most music in the riffs and the fact that we had this drummer we could wrap this melty this vocal melty around the stuff we were coming up with with which wasn't just vocal accompanying chords but riffs in the strange time signatures you know.
Going from five to three or whatever and because he's a drummer and he had his sensibility as a drummer and he was a singer he knew how to wrap these vocal melodies around the things that we were coming up with and it impressed me and impressed hero to have this kind of running ability and and to build a cup of this kind of material and Chris read that and thought cool I can write music that's a little bit more.
Serpentine or or me and ring and I could write me I could write vocals around it and that's that's always has been a skill that I learned was. Rare's oh my god Chris can do this and a lot of these guys can't do that a lot of bands up there their singers can't do that so they can sing a to D to G or whatever and so here we are revisiting riffs that Baba and Chris and I came up with 20 years ago.
And and Julia comes a lot who's worked with Chris in giant's the trees I don't really know where that will and so I call look what Julian did and she wrote this melody over the or this thing that just sat there as a guitar for 20 years like. Chris or Baba or nor I came up with any lyrical or bubble ideas around it could be said these riffs will sit around until you get a singer or something and then it just.
Disappointed she comes on and does that so it's if melodies are sick for real like that yeah it's an impressive thing and then I find out Chris the trees of musician she also plays she's a great bass player to really. Because he does that he has a sense of music and the time even right so there's like these giants in the trees videos are in YouTube and she's singing I'm playing a accordion I've listen to giant's music playing and singing bit.
Somebody wrote a comment that Jillian and Jennifer because of like Chris Cornell and Kirk will be that they have a lot of balls. Yes to get up there to do that yeah I feel super lucky just because I mean these are unnot only amazing musicians but amazing humans so you know I love that we get to get to know each other more and.
Yeah I feel just like super grateful and privileged and blessed to even be in this position and I take it very seriously and I consider it you know a legacy that is you know making its way through generations and these bands are timeless and you know I just hope people get to hear what we're working on now and as both.
I don't want to lose this question because this is for me growing up you inspired so much music became after you know not only were you all in my favorite bands but you were also inspired my favorite bands so the post grunge movement how much were you listening to that aware of it I'm talking about bands like where you had bands like everything from what's a creed see their breaking Benjamin alter bridge new bushes good bushes amazing yeah new bushes really good how much of that stuff where you guys into.
And like did you did you notice like there's a lot of like when I listen to Mark Tramani and stuff like that there was a lot of that grunge inspiration which by the way what a great guy he's a really nice guy and amazing guitar. Gosh he's used that there's some crazy really have some that on the on alter bridge.
And there are all these musicians I respect and I'm impressed with but oddly outside of my peers you know people like Nirvana Pearl Jam with a love bone at the time you James James addition smashing pumpkins I would listen to what they're doing but my source material for what I would write with Matt or Chris or hero or Ben wasn't you know it wasn't we what we did was a great guy.
And we what we did was a product of whatever references I had taken in and that product was a collective vision it wasn't something that came from just me or just Chris or just bad or just hero it's a way we were together the way we communicated with each other musically and as writers but so that's kind of where that ended like here's here's all this stuff I took in in my life you know you're free jazz and you know you're free.
And you know and and and and punk rock and and metal and you know some Johnny Cash and you know then some and and and some hip hop and whatever you could be parrub or demon or chrome it could be kiss it could be aros mitt it could it's all that goes into me and this and then I go and share with hero and Chris or Ben and Matt and this is what comes out and then so it takes that and I'm not listening to how they take it where they go with it because that is that is what I'm going to say.
Because that is that isn't what feeds me so I'm still listening to you know or that Coleman or beef hard or like way what's the evil doing but I did go crazy when we were on tour over your bottom bleach and food and fougazis first record and contemporaries and peers but whatever came out of the brilliant stuff that I love by your body sound garden smashing pumpkins Allison chains by the way Jerry Cantrell another guy that writes winding riffs and then writes a vocal melody that goes around it.
And he's just got it's just beautiful the way he bends his riffs bend and and and move that way and you know. I'm a predecessor to third secret was when Julian and Jennifer and I and Jim now me and Paul Allen's band we played drone by Allison. Yeah, it's a tribute to Allison change. Yeah, and that was a tribute to Allison change and we wanted to do a new house and change songs.
We have their cold catalog spirit but you know like hey you know I put out five records since 2017 so it's like hey no let's do it. Right you saw me it's so decentralized now in music where you mentioned the scene it's like what does it mean to have a local scene now in today's world where everything is so social based.
And not to be ethnocentric I mean something could come out if there's a new era with like music and culture it might come out of somewhere else in the world doesn't necessarily come out of North America or Europe. I just don't know how we can better facilitate rock music going forward and I don't really know that there's a good answer to it.
I think you know for me I'm very much a music fan where I like most nights where I listen to I like baby metal. I mean you're a nickel back guy which I love with that back. Yeah, I like nickel back you defend them and I have like good songs and they have big risk. I tell people this I say most of your favorite musicians actually respect nickel back.
Yeah, I mean and did I just I just burned out on like culture and not just like a cliche to make fun of the metal back it is it's like a lazy thing to say and it's just stupid.
I agree I grew that entirely I don't know why it got started I think that when a band reaches a certain level of success was I'm sure you both experienced at a certain point the contrarians come out and they go you know this isn't good because it's reached a certain threshold of maybe success and maybe some sort of commercialism.
And people just want to the dumb con. That's all part of the dynamic I mean socially and culturally I mean you can try to control it you have your voice and your voice is part of that dynamism. Yeah, but but there are benefits and there are there are detriments to that kind of dynamic and we the Seattle scene certainly benefited at some point.
But whatever it's like it people like what they like and we can listen to the musical components of something but people might judge it for its political or cultural components or how they dress or something like what a great band but what is stupid and stupid hairspray and and span that's like I can't get into that.
So there's because you know it isn't it isn't jazz or classical it's not art music ultimately it's it's folk music and its references are how do you dance to it you know you do twist or are you are you are you are you are you are you are you're a boss fit.
What kind of clothes do you wear you know how do the girls meet the guys how the guys meet the girls how the guys meet the guys how the girls meet the girls they're different aspects of these cultural things that that change their different little pockets and their and there's your mainstream thing and they're like little sub cultural things.
So whatever it's you can expect it to be the same and at some point it was something that was great for Nirvana and Soutenburg and I don't expect it to have to be that way I don't think we need to champion rock.
If culture there's a bunch of reasons why I don't think we need to champion rock and see the champion what we do and we we can't expect our audience to listen to the music their parents listen to because they need to go out meet their friends and meet their girls and their guys and not their parents buddies and not their mom's friend.
Yeah because I think that's not insightful. Yeah because authenticity and truth will always rise into people's awareness and you know you'll be a basically a magnet for your listeners so I don't like I think trying to be something.
People on here you can just champion what you think is right and you know it's best you can do it's I mean there's there's a lot of brilliant political moral ideas out there that are just not adopted by people so what you do and say you know our ideas and the folk ideas you just you voice it when you hope that there's some aspect of culture that regards something is being important and fair and just and for that reason it's worth championing and if that that continues and all right we can have that.
All right we can have a society that's that is appropriate and for all people you know and it allows everybody to speak to each other so that's so insightful that is I've never heard of put that way before.
You can't really do it stop right there let me see you can't change it so yeah I've never heard of put that way before that's so true where you say you know we said the champion what we do and just sort of accept that there's going to be that generational disconnect and and and be okay with that sort of a stoic of prontomy.
And as a musician you just do it for yourself like when I'm playing with third secret it's like oh yeah this is what it's all about and I just get lost in the moment and you know I get to play bass and I love this because it's the way it is with Chris and Jillian and Baba and Matt it's it's it's not any single vision so that's that's where it should be is that kind of happens that's how this only happens because of these collective voices being shared.
Wait me me me contribution to each person makes something yeah and nobody really tries to shape it it just kind of is what it is. What do you think about you know playing shows I mean you think you'll get to a point where you start to worry well I'd be nice to after the first. I love to be off play so it's Matt Matt's on playing with the music. He's a busy man yeah I can't hate on that at least they're probably playing huge shows.
So we need enough material to sustain the show. We got two records I mean we could do we kind of enough we could do these tiny minutes I'd be happy to do something. I think we had enough material to open up for somebody. Maybe another album we can help it would be so great to see all the all of one stage the tree that would be something a lot of people will get there that'll happen.
Yeah we're going to release a video here and mid we're already mid late July so maybe kind of later July another video how are you doing your videos. We do them just like we don't pantomime or have like concept videos we just play because we love to play and I feel like people expect us to play because we're musicians right. And then we're going to shoot another video here in Seattle on August 5th or 6th or something like that.
And so we're going to do two to three songs in a studio and that's going to so we're going to have you know some more videos. And maybe she depends on when Matt Matt's going to he's doing the project and is doing the PJ and you can't give it to him.
That's his big commitment. He definitely loves what we're doing. He gets a voice for for he makes his great demos where he's playing everything and shares it with us and some need some need vocals and Jillian will come up with something or some he's written lyrics for. And Jillian Curtis Eweez is a Matt Cameron song. Yeah totally. And we were exposed to Taylor mom said actually guess it on a song that that Matt there.
That's a band of really great singer great singer. Yeah it's cool one other bands that are sort of you know out in the last 10 years. Would you say that maybe if there are any that you think well I find that interesting and you know I don't have to go back to T2. Yeah I would I get put on the spot. I don't want to bring I know we get a brain freeze but I know I should have said this I should have said I am. I'll go home go. I shout out in these guys here. It's fine.
You know in the that 2000's I was really excited about bands like Sun, it's Bill Sotto, Boris and then related like almost I was you know Bob and I are really in the old. I put a fan of Dylan Jersky plan. You're like into a lot of progressive metal. Yeah like the ambient stuff. I mean not so much I do like do but not so much do but that kind of anti-adjust stuff the stuff that didn't meet a drummer or a singer.
I just I love really heavy music without vocals or something refreshing about it. I think I needed for you know there's stuff about drums just just guitar low end maybe some keys or reads. So mate what are the heaviest bands I can think of is all when there's no guitarist in the first two or three albums just bass and drums and bubbles and it's so cool it's hypnotic and repetitive. But then on the other hand you get a get this quirky angular slashing band like Dylan Jersky plan.
So there's just there's a lot of that but recently I don't know I think I still fall back just more and more maybe I've just made it to this age. It's a sooner or more for jazz. I still like noise. I still like a lot of noise and gin. I still like baby metal. And weird. And they're so thin they put on here in there that talks about an ass of global audience where each other doubt saying popping up baby metal is touring the US and I understand that tour is selling very well.
I'm a big fan of bands where this sort of mystique to the band where you don't really know much about ghost you don't really know much there's a new band if you have
and check them out that is gaining a lot of momentum called sleep token and if you listen to music it's like tool and then I don't know what else you would you would compare them to but they had their anonymous band but their music is very compelling and they're gaining a lot of steam and if a lot of that instrumental stuff but the vocalist is writing like pop hits over top of these metal instruments for metal.
Basically is the best way to describe it by the way tool another amazing band just just musically challenging and then made or do the right lyrics over your Adam stuff and Danny less clay pool and show on it. Yeah. What is something in your musical career whether it's recent or in the distant past that you're the most proud of what was a moment where you felt like Mary accomplished in your musical career. Really. We'd have a number one record sure. How do you celebrate in a record?
I'm still celebrating. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was going to like to achieve. And then you were born in your bond of debt. That was cool. We were in California in February. We did that. That was great. We did that together with like Dave and stuff. Oh, the new food fighters is great. It is. Yeah. And he does that. He does Dave does a duet with a violin his daughter. Yes. On those other duets. So we third Seagrid has a duet on there. The amateur is like a prog rock song.
Yeah. It's like ten minutes long. Yeah. It's really long. The teacher. It's interesting. The teacher. My favorite job was also a teacher. We had a teacher. We were getting our Grammy for a lifetime achievement. And he was at a different award, special award ceremony. And not like any of the other Grammy things. And then the first person they honored was a teacher from like Texas. And then so they said, we got you know where this goes to so and so. I probably forgive you for forgetting your name.
And so then there was the first Grammy they gave out for a lifetime achievement or education award. And Dave jumps to his feet and like leads the standing ovation for this person. And I'm like, oh, and everybody at the whole place stands up for her. And I know why Dave did that because Dave Small. He was a teacher. Yes. My mom's teacher too. Yeah. English music. And I have. And he was he's that was like a reflex. He just went blow me did it right away.
And and and that song the teacher I suppose is a dedication to her out is the Louis lost chair. I guess the last couple of years boy doubt he she. Taylor and Virginia died around the same time. So he you know that's tough man. Yeah. That's very tough. And he just has such a I watched. I saw I talked about it on the channel where there were these people that were in some sort of a volunteer. And I saw some sort of a volunteer capacity. It's some sort of feeding shelter.
And they look over and like without saying anything they just like that. Dave Grohl in here like volunteering. And it's like I think he's cooking in barbecue. Yeah. And it's like that's so special. He needs any excuse to make barbecue. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I don't think we went through everyone. You said number one record was your most proudest moment. And when you felt the proudest of course. Oh, God there's so many. I mean that's a good that's just a couple. And what about you?
When did you feel the most accomplished when you did something and you know, and music? It's a tough question because yeah, it's hard to look at it as an accomplishment kind of. Just because yeah, I think we're just doing our thing. I obviously feel very blessed to be playing like such amazing musicians. And I think we have more work to do. What about when you finish a record though and you listen to it from the first time? That's gotta be like hard says store.
I mean, maybe I'm just I don't know if I have my own unique experience with that. But it's almost like yeah, you've listened to it so many times and it just feels like a part of you at that point. And when you release it, there is that kind of bittersweet. And just like we were talking about earlier, like just anticipating maybe what the reaction will be. Sure. But just keeping your focus on, you know, like why you're doing what you're doing, which is to, you know, you hope people.
Resonate with what you're doing. You hope people can find something that maybe up list their day or change their perspective or just gets them in the mood. That's a great approach. That's a great approach to life as well. And what about you Kim? I don't know. There's so many different punctuated parts of, you know, life and career and it's hard to. Is it go by fast as do you feel like your career has been like a. You'd retrospect.
Yeah, it's you don't see the the mile post as you're approaching them. You see them into a rear view. And I think one of the, I think two of the things that I think were. Probably significant that I, that I feel proud of was starting my first band when I was like, you know, and I can send me seven, seven eightos, see here in high school, it was probably 17 and started the band called Bulls on the pinheads. I'd read some songs just, you know, by guitar in my bedroom.
And I wasn't a very good guitar player. I said, what these are three chord songs, but I was better writing lyrics, but not sound guard lyrics. I thought I was going to write lyrics and Ramones or Dibo-ish and the tough thing was. Getting Friday people like my punk rock records and no one did. And I think convincing some old friends. People I knew in high school were musicians. I mean, this drummer, I know this, I think a guitar player, I know this bass player.
He has a bass player, a girl named Linda, who was really in a zeppelin and, you know, Jeff on tell all that stuff. But she also liked the clash and she liked sex pistols and her mullets. So she was a person who gave my, my affinity for punk rock, you know, at a year. And then these, these other guys, these, these are guys who are in Jerry Garcia, the great bull dead or Todd Rungren to Utopia. And that, and maybe they'd lean my way by liking some bully here, rock, see music.
But they kind of went in this hippie direction and their musicians. And they didn't think, you know, my, my hero's, but their kiss records were very particularly musical or interesting. But it's like Ramones, sex pistols. The fact that I cobbled together a band with these guys had been friends and, and they're still my friends and it's been what? Cause that day, like 40, 50 years, it's only about, they're still my friends. We started this band, I remember specifically guys saying,
we don't like punk rock, but we'll play in your band. Those guys are all like punk rockers now. Are they all being, their taste in music is wide open. I mean, they could be like, top hang with Chris or something, you know, it's, it's, their taste in music. They begin to love the, you know, the stuff that they, this huge, and it said they, they would do as, as a lot to help me out. And it kind of took off and there's like, there's like rockers into South suburbs of Chicago.
And I was really proud of that. That was a big deal. I kind of felt, I could be giving up right then. And I said, everyone laughs at my records. They don't want to hear my, my stupid three chord songs. But a few people said, we don't like this, but we'll do it. And then it ended up welding. And that, that's a big moment. And I think the first time Hero and Chris and I got together to play, just because it was, it was so far beyond expectations for Chris, for Hero and for myself.
None of us played in a band that was that immediately responsive creatively and tweeting, in terms of communication. I've got the best communicator. It either is Hero or Chris. In fact, we weren't the kind of people who would listen to each other, but it just happened. It's like, well, we all heard that. And it was, it was such, it was transformative in our understanding of how to be a musician and how,
how to work with these guys. And it was a really, it was a, it was a giddy sort of high and surprise that, oh, this is, this is something that works playing and writing and it all kind of, it's, it's this other thing. It's not from my head and it's not from Hero's head or Chris's head. It's this other thing that we're looking at in front of us and going, what the fuck with that comp?
And everyone loved it. And everyone thought, geez, that there was something about that. It was just so punctuated. And, and just change things, you know, for, you know, the way I look at my relationships, you know, certainly musically. What's the best advice you'd say you ever received over the course of your career? When people ask me how to make it in the music industry or how to make money, I say, get a lot of green. And you could take a lot of lessons from that.
The best one. There are other pieces of advice that just, just have fun. Like what you're doing. Like where you're at. Go, if you want to be somewhere else other than where you're at, you're not going to enjoy it and you will get there. Just like where you're at. Just keep doing that and go to someone. Right. I believe in that. And I just think that, you know, it's amazing. I want to thank all of y'all for being here because this has been an amazing opportunity.
And I'm so excited for everyone to see this conversation. Thank you, Brian and Rocky. Thank you so much. Actually.