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Shalom and welcome to Rivkush, the CJN podcast celebrating Jews of color, talking about all things Jewish and anything else we wish to speak about. Hello. It is my pleasure to introduce my guest today. Her name is Deviant Saltzman. She is a Canadian writer, curator, and arts leader with an in depth practice in multidisciplinary programming at the intersection of arts ideas and social justice. She was most recently the director of public programming at the Art Gallery of Ontario. She was the Director of Literary Arts at the Banff Center for Arts and Creativity, as well as the founding curator at Luminato. She is the author of Shooting Water, which the New York Times called a poignant memoir. Her work has appeared in The Globe and Mail, the Atlantic Room magazine and Tolika India's weekly for arts and investigative journalism. She is the vice chair of the Writers Trust of Canada, a member of the Board of Directors of Toronto Arts Council, the Ontario Association of Art Galleries, Summer Works Performance Festival and Nova Dance. Saltzman has a master's in anthropology and sociology and is currently working on her second book of nonfiction. Welcome and off the top, please correct my pronunciation of India's weekly.
Nice to be here, Ruth. And it's tehelka tohelka, thank you very much. Not at all. Oh my goodness. So tell me this I want to know about you. So tell me a little bit about your background growing up as a Hindu. Love it, because right now we have a Jamaican and a Hindu, like super cool. So tell me more about you.
Oh man. It's like the topic I find the least interesting, but hopefully someone might relate to it or find it interesting. Yeah. A hinge you. I'm an arts worker. I'm in my grew up in Tacaronto. I was born in Tacaronto to my mom who immigrated from the Punjab in the early seventy s and a Jewish father who grew up in and around Downsville in the 1950s. So my grandparents on my father's side had come from Russia escaping the Pugrums. My on my grandmother's side in the settled first in Montreal and then Toronto. And on my Zeta side, they had come a generation earlier and worked a dry good store in Saskatchewan as the only Jewish family in New dwarf Saskatchewan. So I come from a Jewish dad and a Punjabi Hindu mother, and I guess that makes me a hinge you.
Wow, that is super cool. So let's dig a little deeper into that because I know you do work on intersectionality. Tell me, what was it like being you growing up? Because we know that as much as we like to say our Jewish community is so diverse, et cetera, et cetera. Yes, it is. No, it isn't. Sometimes it's a challenge, sometimes it's okay. So give me a sense of yeah.
It'S interesting because I feel like a bit of maybe an outlier. I mean, not in terms of your interviews, but in terms of the Jewish community, because my parents really raised me not in the Indian community and not in the Jewish community. I kind of grew up in downtown Toronto and went to Oakwood Collegiation Institute Public High School. Never really went to temple. Either temple jewish or Hindu. So I was kind of raised culturally Jewish and Hindu, celebrating Devali and Passover, but my father's family were kind of atheists and Communists coming from Russia. So I feel like I only kind of started to identify or kind of interface with the more specifically the Jewish community when I was a little bit older and I identified as a Jew of color and really found my community in a group of Jews of color who formed in the last few years Kendall Pinkney and Sorry akobi from no Silence on Race. And we started a kind of national or international gathering of Jews of color called Prism that was run by Evelyn Tobin and Fenster Gallery as a gathering space over the Pandemic. And that's when I really felt like, oh, this is my community.
So deviant. I'm quite familiar with no Silence on Race, because I do remember when it started, and I had some conversations with Sarah around that, because, as you can recall, that time was quite explosive given events that were happening globally, like George Floyd, and really, I think, shook the world. It shook the Jewish community, which I found eye opening. And I'm very familiar. I love Kendall, by the way. He's one of my favorite people in the world. I've tried to convince him to come to Canada and be a rabbi up here. But what was your thoughts and what was going on with you during all of that turmoil and what led you to participate in those initiatives?
Yeah, I think as many such a long overdue reckoning, I was working in culture. I still work in culture, but I was working in culture at the Ago at the time as director of public programming. Obviously, it raised many questions within the museum in terms of response, in terms of how to really serve communities and specifically center black excellence and get away from hierarchies of white supremacy. It was very emotional, but I think also super exciting to see organizations begin to respond and initiatives like Sarah's and no Silence on Race and that collective. I just was trying to be the best ally I could within my position and be involved in partnerships that were hopefully about dismantling oppressive systems and finding new ways of being. I think two years later, there's been a lot of movement, but there's also been a lot of retrenchments and backlash. So that's something I'm thinking a lot about. And as I mentioned, it was Evelyn Tobin and Fenster in partnership with no silence. That started prism. And I guess I started to look at what are alternate communities that we can be a part of that are safer spaces, more equitable, as in this case, I'm a person of color and with white passing privilege. But it was really great to meet Kendall and Sarah and others and try to form new spaces.
Awesome. You said something that caught me also backlash. So can you elaborate on that a bit more for me? Describe what that backlash is.
I'm working in a book right now around culture and change, especially in our public spaces and institutional spaces and what leadership for people of color is like. And, I mean, the trend I'm seeing is there was such a rush to recruit people of color onto boards and in leadership, and yet a lot of these systems haven't historically been supportive of those people, and there isn't necessarily the scaffolding internally to ensure that spaces can provide runway, whether it's for audiences or leaders. And I think we've seen a whole rush of hires, but also firings in the last two years of people of color from positions of power. So I guess what I'm saying is there was this rush to change the system, and then also when people are vested in there, when whiteness is vested in itself, it doesn't want to let go. So I think we're seeing the tension of that in this moment, and I hope it tips forward, but I think it's quite fraught right now, to be honest.
I have to thank you for saying that, because from where I sit, I am a Jewish professional. And I know when I've had conversations with people around what you described as the rush, it's like, let's get a Jew of color to sit on this and sit on that without the support and without understanding. You haven't actually changed your mindset. You're just putting somebody in a position, and you have to just say, look, we've done it, and there's no support and there's no mentorship, proper Jew of color, even to Jew of color mentorship. I've been trying to articulate it to myself, like, what is it? And hearing you voice, it really solidifies that I don't even know that feeling I've had, especially in the last little while. I mean, in the last couple of years, that feeling that if something is still not right, in fact, I feel that in some ways, it's almost worse.
I'm glad it resonates. It's only what I've observed as kind of a writer and a reader and an arts worker in this space. But, yeah, I think it's real. I think it's real, and I don't even know what the name for it is, but maybe this is the nature of change in terms of stepping forward and two steps back. But in some ways, yeah, I think we're in flux, and it's not actually necessarily better. I don't think replacing people with people of color in power, in and of itself is enough. I think we have to look at the system 100%.
100%. So you're the opposite of me in that you are quite artistic, and I love that I always have the secret envy of those who are artistic and right. And I just love it you'd come to it, honestly, because both your parents are directors. So it's like it's almost your DNA. Yes. The arts and culture is in your DNA, I guess. So I spent many years trying to escape that and study biology and genetics and be a scientist to run as far away, but I guess my DNA literally caught up.
So tell me a little bit about what you know, what I would like to know about. What is Nova Dance?
I mean, that is an organization I feel privileged to be a part of in a governance capacity. And I guess Rivka, when we were talking about how do we have impact in this moment of change, I felt like after George Floyd and 2020 and organizations kind of in crisis, I thought maybe board work would be a way to help in a more effective way. So I felt honored to be part of Nova Dance, which is a South Asian, TAC, toronto based dance company, but contemporary. So working with Baragnatium and Arisi Dance under artistic director Nova Battacharya, and this organization feels really like it's run in a non hierarchical, collective, human way, and that's why I love being a partner.
It sounds absolutely wonderful. So your South Asian culture, it seems you're quite steeped in it. I am. I know it sounds funny. I don't even think of myself sometimes as South Asian or Jewish. I just feel like myself. But, yes, of course, I spoke Hindi before English. My grandmother and extended family live in New Delhi, so I am it's definitely a huge part of me. Okay, awesome. So what currently now the shooting water. The shooting water. Tell us about your book. Shooting Water.
To me, it's like an old thing I wrote a bunch of years ago, but it was a memoir. I'm happy to answer. It's a memoir about growing up biracial and growing up in a family of film. My mom was working on a film in India that was shut down for political reasons, and I was there with her and witnessed this. So it's about politics and cinema and our reconnecting as a mother and daughter. So it was, I guess, my first artistic work before I started more into arts administration. But I'm proud of it.
Yeah. So even though you prefaced it by saying it was old, I think it's still probably quite relevant. It's your memoir. It's your memoir. It's a piece of who you are so that will ever get old. So what are you currently working on now? You're doing another book. Are you able to divulge?
Yeah, and I kind of just mentioned it briefly, but because of everything you're discussing and what we're seeing, I really wanted to try to map these trends in terms of culture, but also organizations across sectors around people of color and leadership. So it is a nonfiction book that is about this moment of social change. So it's about how are we recruiting people of color into institutions that have colonial legacies. What is working, what isn't? What are the new models for how we work together going forward that aren't about trying to change from within? Because I think I've spent 15 years in large organizations and change can happen from within them, but often things kind of also slide back. So I'm curious about how do we create sustainable, positive change for people of color in organizations? That sounds potentially really boring.
Absolutely not. Okay. So when I think of the arts, the world of arts and culture and this is probably my naive view of it on the outside looking in, and I know years gone by, there was not a lot of diversity. And people had to create, for example, dance schools that cater to people of color and troops because they weren't accepted as principal dancers and other troops, if I'm making any sense. Right. But when I think about arts and culture today, I think, oh, it's very diverse and it should be quite progressive. And I think of all those things, am I off the mark? I mean, I feel I am because it sounds like work needs to be done.
So I think culture is also in its reckoning. And I think the irony is, and it was the irony for me as well, is we assume our cultural spaces are maybe from the outside, by their nature, progressive, but they are also systems that are entrenched in older ways of being. So yes, there's definitely a lot of diversity in culture. And in terms of programming, I think often even before people who's actually employed in power. So I think programming and who's on the stage or what is being heard can often feel almost more progressive than who's actually running the institution. So yes, there's progression, but there's also boards and senior leadership teams that aren't as diverse as they should be in the 21st century. And I think that's what is beginning to change right now, or at least the process we're in.
Yes, it does. It makes sense. So what are your suggestions for boards and people in power who are not people of color? And what sort of suggestions, how would you help them get to where they ought to be and some concrete ways that you think will push that forward?
Well, firstly, I want to help, but I also don't know if I want to help because I'm also arguing there might be new systems, but for those that exist, I mean, I think we both know the answer to this. It's getting away from tokenism and actually getting to critical mass in terms of people, diverse people on boards and in senior leadership. So the weight of it is not on one sole change maker of color within an existing institution. Okadu did cluster hiring around their indigenous faculty and their black faculty so that there were critical mass of folks. It's about getting away from power, residing in one CEO that then trickles down and towards flatter systems as opposed to pyramid structures. I think there's been a lot written about that, especially in tech and in the innovation space that can then be applied to culture. And I also think it's about asking yourself who is your audience and who do you serve and is the work you're doing really meaningful to community? Are they able to access it in terms of ticket prices, in terms of barriers to access? So I guess what I'm writing about is more these are ways to help organizations be truly equitable. But I also think there's models we don't even I think there's an argument for people starting their own spaces and not trying to change things that already exist. And that's like band black Artist networking Dialogue, which is an art space run by Karen Carter and others in Tacaronto. It's about spaces like Nova Dance, which is its own company rooted in South Asianness. So I'm actually not necessarily arguing that things can be changed fully. I think it's a combination of that and new spaces and new ways of being.
That's interesting because it is something that sometimes bantered about on Jews of color, because we struggle in Jewish spaces sometimes and we struggle when it comes time to going to synagogue and there's sometimes a conversation around, well, maybe we should have our own space and maybe we should have our own synagogue. Synagogues plural. I personally struggle with that because I'm not sure. I'm just not sure because a part of me says that would be great because there is something inherently safe about being around people who are like and understand and just get it. But then part of me is like, but why should I step away from where I should belong? Because yeah, do you see what I'm saying?
No. But I think the key word, and it's actually the opening chapter in this new book, is about belonging. We want to belong to a common narrative or the spaces we exist in. And personally, that's why I first went into kind of really long established arts institutions, is I wanted to see myself reflected there as someone who historically hadn't been. And yet when you're on the inside, are you comfortable? Are these the spaces to change? Yes and no. So I'm like you, I'm asking these questions of myself. I still think there's a great argument to belong to the temple you just described or the cultural space you've long followed. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. But I think that's what we're all thinking about now.
Yeah. And it really is sometimes, believe it or not, sometimes it keeps me up because it peaks and valleys, these conversations. So sometimes I really sit there and I think, why am I doing this? Why am I struggling in these spaces that are barely welcoming? And I feel like I'm forcing them to be welcoming.
And it's not a different thing whether it's kind of in the religious community as it is in any community. And that could be someone working in the corporate world or someone working in culture. I think we're all navigating belongings. Right. So you have a podcast, and in your podcast called The Culture Shift, you have dialogue with intersectional artists. What led you there?
I think what led me there was my own journey of kind of 15 years in institutional spaces and wanting to understand how artists and arts leaders of color were navigating this moment of change. So it was actually a very kind invitation from Chris Abraham, the artistic director of Crow's Cedar. And he commissioned nine episodes. And I pitched him this because I think it was part of my research for the book, but it was also just trying to get a temperature check on what other folks of color in the arts were feeling in this moment. So that's what led me.
What were they feeling? Was there anything that really surprised you either way? That was just like, wow, I never thought of that. I'm just thinking back through the list of people I spoke to. Because while you're thinking, there are some things that I think, of course this must be the case. And then it's like, oh, it's not. So did you have any of those AHA moments.
Without being repetitive? The things we've all discussed were trends that were identified by them navigating the same different spaces. I think the thing that kind of resonated was so much depends on who you're working with and your direct boss. So we can say these trends exist across many cultural spaces or corporate spaces, but also everything seems to be very much also relationship driven, and that was interesting to me. So some interviewees were struggling with navigating their organization, others had a really wonderful boss and were insulated by that relationship. So that was interesting. I know that's not groundbreaking, but that's one thing I glean no, that actually.
Is because I think it is interesting in that sometimes we do forget that it actually can be and or is about relationships. Absolutely. Because I'm even thinking back on various bosses that I've had and my level of comfort. And it is basically about the relationship that I've built with that person where there's a kind of safety and maybe.
That'S part of what we maybe that's part of this longer game here. And it's definitely something that's out there in conversations is how do we get away from, at least in culture, the corporatization of our workspaces and actually remember that so much is based on relationships and respect. And our models right now are built on 19th century models of productivity coming out of England in the Industrial Revolution and efficiency. And at least in the arts, we're talking about creativity and inspiration and relationships. Maybe we need to actually add a bit of that into how our structures work.
I'm going to jump back a bit because I want to talk about your connection with no Silence on Race and Prism. I don't want to just say what is your role, but what is your role? My role was I was invited by Evelyn and no Silence on Race to be on the I guess we were the Art Advisory Committee or the Artistic committee of Prism with Kendall Carmel Tanaka. Who'S an amazing arts leader, BC out.
Of Vancouver, out of BC. And we were kind of the working group to set up the first Prism gathering and then the second Prism gathering. So I was a volunteer working with them to create an online space for Jews of color during the pandemic. Okay, and will we continue with that sort of thing? Can you branch it out to us non artist types? Yeah, it's interesting. It's true. It was kind of through the lens of culture. Also, you're a broadcaster. You are totally.
It's funny, I don't see it like that. I see it as conversation, but okay.
Yeah, I think conversation is an art. I feel like I think you're definitely part of that. Yes, it was kind of based in arts and arts workers, but maybe it should be broader at the moment because we were all volunteer based and have different projects. There hasn't been a third Prism, but it's definitely still alive and probably will have a third version. And maybe it should be expanded to be for all Jews of color despite their working. Right. And you said it was zoom. What about lies?
Also have been speaking about that as kind of restrictions ease and people emerge into the world. I think that would be also a fundraising question on our part. But are there a lot of other spaces like this, Rivka, from your perspective? No, not Canadian. Not Canadian. There are initiatives all over the United States for wonderful safe spaces for Jews of color and programming and gatherings in the United States. In Canada, not so much.
That's very good to know because if we can fill that niche, we should continue to build upon it. And I'd love to talk to you more yeah. Because I think we are hungry for that. And I'm so afraid that if we don't start doing more of that, we will become even more and more distant from each other. And I think it could be such a powerful network, such a powerful group of people, but not when we can't get exactly.
Yeah. And networks of support are so important, and I would love to continue that or if anyone listening to this is interested in in the Canadian context. Connect with them through fenster or no silence on race or prism, because we do need communities. As I said, it was the first real Jewish community I felt, oh, this is my home. Right. And that was in my it meant so much to me.
I really understand that because for a good chunk of my life, I felt alone. This unicorn, I guess maybe not a unicorn, because you're here, too, and unicorns are very rare. We're not so rare, but we are kind of unicorns. Were you trying to straddle both worlds and be part of that was for me, trying to straddle both worlds, be part of both worlds. My Afro Caribbean, because my background is Jamaican. Get it, but don't get it. The Jewish get it, but don't get it. So you just kind of figured that you were just kind of aside from family, you were just kind of navigating this by yourself. And when I started to find other Jews of color, it was like, oh.
Okay, where and when did you first find that sense of community for yourself? I found that sense of community when I was okay, so hold on. Not that long ago. So we're talking around 2010 ish? Around like, nine 2010. And so how many years ago is that? We're going to force Rivca to do math, which I do like. So we're talking my 40s. Yeah, same. It's so interesting that both of us found that quite a lot later in.
Life, just kind of just floated around before that. Right. But then I think I think if I think I don't I don't know about you, but I think finding it later in life, I was more prepared to take it on and take on the challenges and take on the trying to fix it, for lack of a better word. I think I was stronger in my 40s than I would have been in my 20s. In my was distracted by other stuff, and it was easier for me to give up trying to join the community because I had other things. So it was like, okay, whatever. You don't want me? Okay, fine, I'm raising children, see you. That kind of thing. Or building my career. Right. But it is a thing.
I'm sorry, I'm like throwing questions back. No, that's okay. We're having a conversation, not an interrogation, I hope.
Truth, not at all. I feel like because I never grew up going to temple, I've always wondered, oh, if I was, which one would I join? And I actually don't know enough about kind of the tacronto options in terms of synagogues, especially as a Jew of color, that would feel the most home to me. And I just wondered how you navigated that space in your 40s or where you eventually found community.
I was a synagogue hopper. I think because of the skin that I walk in, I have a natural heightened sensitivity to how I'm perceived, because I know when I walk in the room, the first thing people see is not Rifka, it's Rivka, the black girl. And so if I would go to a particular synagogue and I didn't get a Shabbat Shalom, and I got instead, one of my favorites was, do you know where you are? No, I have no clue. Or are you Jewish? How are you? Like, all these questions that preceded Shabbat Shalom? And if I didn't feel that welcoming or forget welcoming courtesy, like, just politeness, I wouldn't go there again. And I did stay at one synagogue for a bit. My kids went to the Hebrew school there. But after a while, too, it was just exhausting, exhausting having to explain why you belong. And so then I eventually left there, too. It took going to Israel it actually took going to Israel in 2012 to feel comfortable in the skin I'm in and to realize that the community is far more diverse than what it was in my home city.
Wow. Yeah. And then I came back with, like, a fire. With a fire. And there was some space in between me leaving the Toronto community and going to Israel. So there was a space where I was just like, no connection except for a little bit of volunteering, and that was it. And so when I came back, I said, no, we have to do better. And where did you find that?
But for other reasons, I think because I work in a religious institution, I work in a synagogue. And I think because of that, I also want to now go to a synagogue. It has a different feel, and there are other challenges on that side that are interesting. But I'm still there, so clearly I'm navigating it, and I'm okay most days.
Thank you for saying that. As someone who also kind of never necessarily found that home in a religious institution, it's nice to hear other people. I mean, not nice, but good to hear other people. And what were your challenges around that?
I guess I never really was raised in it because of my parents lack of being more spiritual and not super religious. But when I wanted to find it later in life, I don't know, I guess I just felt like, I really don't know where that home is. Which is why Prism played such a big role. And Kendall's Pastorship, as just a friend to me, actually felt much more resonant than looking for a synagogue. But I'd be really open and interested to know what exists. It's just I didn't grow up with it.
Yeah, no, and I understand that too, because basically a religious myself, and it was because of my kids that I thought, let me connect. But I think what is so wonderful about the work that you do and tagging off of what you just said, we also need to understand and. I think because going to synagogue belonging to a synagogue seems to be a marker for doing Jewish. And it's nice that the work that you do really highlights that. There are other ways to immerse yourself and find exactly that is also Jewish. It does not have to be a synagogue.
No, totally not. Again, I'm going to stop thinking, but I'm very thankful to Evelyn and Fenster and Sarah and no silence on Race and Kendall and Carmel for bringing that together in the space of culture.
Absolutely. And I hear you on that. So what's up next for you? I know you're working on the book and you seem to be crazy busy, but I don't know why I feel that you can probably squeeze in other things too. You know why? Because you're super chill. And usually super chill people are really, actually very busy.
I am very busy and I like being super chill. Post the museum. I've actually been working for the first time in my life, which is both wonderful and scary, as an independent consultant of my own strategic firm and independent curator. And so I have the pleasure now, in the last year, of working with multiple organizations across the country on programming, on strategy, around culture shift. And I've never been my own entrepreneur. My parents are both entrepreneurs, and I've been this spiritual journey of learning how to build my own mini space. And it's been wonderful.
Your consulting work, that is a huge step because there may be people listening or like, I need her. So tell me more about that specific work. Yes. And the name. Yeah, at the moment, it's Davy. Annie Saltzman's strategic cultural strategies. So easy to find. Your name easy to find.
Exactly. And I've been at a bit of a soft launch because it's new territory for me, so it may have another name down the line, but at the moment, people have just been finding me through networks and past work. And two of my most recent projects were Pen america in the United States, which is the world's largest organization for freedom of expression, has the US's biggest arts and ideas festival every year in New York and Los Angeles. And I've been one of their independent international curators last year and this year, bringing writers and thinkers to New York. So as a curator, I'm creating cultural programming for organizations. And on the strategy side, most recently, I'm working with the Textile Museum of Canada, our national Museum, to help them shape their first permanent collection gallery. So I'm doing strategy around programming for institutions as well as curating independently. And it's been really fun.
That sounds exciting. And the fact that you can it's your own thing, like, it's your creativity in curating. And I think that's when we talk about belonging, I think as humans, we want to belong to collective spaces, and I very much do. But there's also this amazing thing to build your own house and work with many spaces, but also kind of own your own time and creativity. So I really do believe in both.
That is absolutely wonderful. Well, thank you. You've given me some food for thought, and I might be reaching out to you with some other questions and things that I have, especially around the work that you're doing with your consulting, because now my mind is like, kind of like, maybe I can use her in my other life. I would love to learn more. There's nothing I like more than just collaborating with people. It gives me the greatest.
I think this is something that we need to look into in creating good, safe, wonderful communities for Jews of color. And not just Jews of color who are artistic, but Jews of color like me. Even though I think you're artistic. But yes, I think it's cross sectoral. I think everything we're talking about actually applies whatever space you live and operate in. And I love the project of hopefully helping move spaces forward.
Well, thank you so much for coming on here as our guest. I really appreciated this conversation. And I am serious. You've given me some food for thought, some food for thought that will affect me personally and professionally. So I thank you so much. I look forward to your second book, and I don't believe anything you say about it being boring, aka nonfiction. Highly doubt it. So I do look forward to it because I think it's going to be some great learning for all of us. And so, again, thank you so much.
Thank you, Rivka. And thank you for the time and space to have this conversation. And happy Hanukkah and happy holiday.
Happy Hanukkah to you, too. Thanks for listening to Rivkush. Our producers, Michael Freeman, music by Westside Gravy. And I am rivkush. If you enjoyed this podcast, you can hear more at the CJN CA RIVC and support us by subscribing. If you want to support the CJN, join the CJN Circle. You get quarterly magazines, invitations to live events, and a weekly printable edition. Learn more at the CJN CA circle. Thanks for listening.
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