Klash of the Kinks: Ray Davies vs. Dave Davies

the prototypical brit pop sibling rivalry. They even had a motto the band that fights together stays together, which was true until when they fought one too many times and they didn't stay together anymore. But unlike Oasis, it looks like they're getting back together, which is incredible. I can't even fathom how a new Kink's record is going to be received in Yeah, it's pretty inspiring and like, I think, frankly, pretty fortunate that these guys are still alive and like

willing to play together. I mean, like the Kinks, like they really are like one of the greatest rock bands of all time. And Ray and Dave Davies are at the center of it. I mean, you mentioned the Gallagher brothers, and I think the Davis brothers have a similar dynamic. You know, the older brother is the songwriting genius, which really is true for Ray Davies. He's just the master

with melody and lyrics. And then you have the younger brother, Dave, who was like the rock and roll wild man, and I think he's also like a genuinely important and underrated guitarists. Like if you love hard rock, have you metal punk, any kind of music that's loud and gritty, you have to give it up for Dave Davies. And you're right.

The Kings have such a weird spot and kind of like the British invasion pantheon because like they definitely didn't have the commercial success of the Beatles of the Stones, and certainly not in the US for reasons we'll get

to later. But they had this incredibly crunch like like you said, really gritty early singles, but they didn't really invent them so elves or reinvent themselves in the seventies is like hard rock band like The Who did, but they were never really like a cult group either, like the Zombies who had the big comeback, and kind of the nineties and early two thousand's with Odyssey and Oracle.

They they really just were so consistent navigating all these really like micro eras from pop singles of the mid sixties, the kind of more album oriented stuff with Village Green Preservation Society and Arthur, and like early seventies you've got like Muswell Hillbillies that kind of stripped down stuff and all the way through to the MTV age. But like come Dancing, Come Dancing is a hot song, right, Yeah, I mean that's like the first Kink song I ever heard.

I remember seeing that when I was five years old, and I thought the Kinks were a new band, although they looked like a pretty old but nevertheless, but yeah, I mean, I feel like the Kinks have this really unique combination of having like a dozen recognizable hits that if you like rock music, you know, songs like you Really Got Me in All Day and All the Night and Lola and all those songs, but like they're not as overexposed as like the biggest songs by the Beatles

and the Rolling Stones, So they're this classic rock band that still feels like a little underground, which I think makes them eternally cool. And they also have Ray and Dave, like these battling, brilliant brothers who have just supplied us with so much drama and violence over the years. I mean, like these guys were banned from entering America for several years. I mean, that's how crazy these guys are. I mean, there's just so much to discuss here, So without further ado,

let's get into this mess. Dave Davies once observed I think Ray was happy for only three years in his life, and those were the three years before I was born, which is strikingly similar to I think with something Liam said about nol too, which is one of the first of many similarities we'll see between these brothers. Oh yeah, Dave may have a point. Ray was the youngest boy, uh in a family with six older sisters, so for years he had you know, it was just doated on

by the entire family. And then Dave came along and kind of stole his thunder, stole his limelights. So I can see how that those seeds we planted early on in their relationship. Yeah, old story. The baby comes along and upstages the older brother. Oh Yeah, And there was an early incident that kind of really set the stage for I think that they sort of lived this out

in their relationship many times over the years. Uh. They were just having a little fist fight around the house, as as a little brothers do, and uh, Dave pushed Ray, and Ray fell and hit his head against the family piano and he's out. He's on the floor, he's on his back. Dave thinks, oh, should I just killed Ray? And he goes over and you know, checks to make

sure he's still breathing. Right when he's in front of Ray's face, Ray just sucks him right in the face, just opens his eyes, you know, an incredible sneak attack. And uh, and Dave later said, you know, that's symbolic of our entire relationship. I felt pleasured that I had knocked him over, then concerned that I had heard him, but all he really wanted was to get back at me. Yeah.

And if you're gonna make a biopick about these guys, And by the way, like someone needs to make a biopic about the Kinks, or like a really good documentary, because this is such a great story that I feel like has been sort of undertold a little bit, But you know, I think like some other crucial scenes that would be in that movie where would be like when

Ray Davies got his first guitar. Like that story is so crazy, Like he got this guitar from one of his older sisters and then she goes out dancing later that night and like literally dies on the dance floor. I mean, can you believe that story? On his birthday? It's on his birthday too, and it just traumatizes him. He goes into himself basically, and it kind of changes the course of his life. He becomes this very introspective,

sensitive person. And then you have Dave Davies, his younger brother, who has his own traumatic event that happens when he's a teenager. He ends up uh and pregnating his girlfriend when he's fifteen, and his parents and the girl's parents conspired to keep these two apart, and Dave doesn't actually meet his daughter I think until he was like in his thirties. Oh yeah, I might even have been in the kindies. It was a long long time, yeah, And it feels like these events helped to shape who these

guys became. Because you have Ray Davies, who is this rooting, sensitive, introspective person and then you have Dave, who again he's like the wild guy. You know, he's the wild child, and it just forms this sort of oil and water combination that again, you know, we talked about Noel and Liam Gallagher, there was a very similar dynamic. They're like where Noel was the more introspective one and Liam, the

younger brother, is a little crazier. And on one hand you could say like, Okay, these guys needed each other to balance each other out, but at the same time, because of these contrasting personality traits that they had, it just seems like they rubbed each other the wrong way from the beginning of the relationship. And this carries on

into their approach to music too. He raised told these stories about how when he first started learning guitar, he would just anguish over learning these really elaborate guitar picking styles, and Dave was like, okay, I learned five chords, mastered it.

Now like I got this, and it even comes through in there they're playing too, like I think of something like the opening of of Shangri Law with a really delicate fingerpicking, and then listen to like Annie Dave Davis solo on some of the early singles, and it just sounds like he's just beating the guitar with his fists. He's just wrestling the solo out of it. So yeah,

it definitely comes through in their music too. But as you said, very much like Liam and Noel, the band that really seems like it was more Ray's band was

actually started by Dave. Dave was had this rock and roll impulse and even though he's probably not as good a musician as Ray was, at this stage, he was the one who, uh first wanted to express himself in a rock and roll band, so he got together with the Kinks bassist Peter quaf and Ray was sort of more deep into art school and focused on painting and film and all these other things, so he ended up joining later um and it was really the three of them Ray, Peter and Dave. And some of their early

names are great. They were the Boweevils for a while. Isn't that an amazing that sounds like it could be like like a seventies like, you know, on a support act for like the Cramps or something. That's a great name. I think the Kinks is a pretty incredible name too. I mean, there's something about that band name that feels like pretty modern, Like you could imagine a band in England from the late seventies being called the Kinks. Like it sounds like like a punk band name, like ten

years before punk existed. You know, it's not in the typical tradition of like you know, the Beatles or you know some of the other or the Hollies other British invasion sounding bands that have more cute, cie sounding names. Like there's always something like a little menacing I think about The Kinks, and I think a lot of that has to do with the dynamic between Ryan Dave, because pretty much from the beginning, I mean, these guys were

at each other's throats, like they would fight everywhere. You know, they'd fight the studio, they fight backstage. You know, they're fighting in the back of limousines. You know. There's this story that one of their early producers tells about how uh, you know, he would go to Ray and say, how about doing a tour of Germany? And Ray would agree to it, and then he'd go to Dave, and then Day would want to do the tour or two. And then once Ray heard that Dave wanted to do the tour,

Rave wouldn't want to do the tour. Like that's the kind of relationship that they had very much, you know, contradicting the other person. Um, you know, if he wants it, then I don't want it, and vice versa. But I think like when you listen to the Kinks music, I feel like that tension just permeates all their best records. Like, to me, like what made the Kinks unique is that there's this combination of being this sort of there's this

very kind of prim englishness to it. On one hand, like the melodies are very beautiful and ornate, uh and raise lyrics I think are like pretty literary for like, especially like a British sixties singer songwriter like he was I think way ahead of like the other people in the British Invasion in terms of like writing these story

oriented lyrics. So you have that aspect, But then undercutting all that stuff is this like just aggression running underneath everything where it feels like it's going to spill over into violence at any moment, you know. So you have the you have the intellect, and you have the violence going hand in hand, and it's really it's what makes that band special. And it's crazy that's the same band that made like, you know, Mr. Pleasant and then All

Day and All the Night. I mean you feel like those are just two completely different sides of the coin. It's amazing that could do both of those and do them so well. Yeah, and of course their first big head ends up being You Really Got Me, which is I think like one of the most important rock songs ever. I mean that might sound like hyperbole, but like you hear that song, and that song predates punk, it create, it predates heavy metal, and yet you could hear the

roots of those musics when you hear that song. Oh absolutely, I mean yeah, that that you hear the roots. And also just Dave's guitar style of power chords was so so important for young people learning guitar. I mean that was when I first learned guitar. I was having trouble with chords and stuff, Like you get the power chords that Dave uses and you feel like, oh, I can actually play a song. It's so great for your confidence.

It's like guitar training wheels or something. And I feel like if you can play a riff that you recognized, like you really got me as an like when you have you know, two months of guitar under your belt or something like, that's really important. So I think of all these like young guitars starting out who grew in the guitar legends who bevered that was like their first riff they learned. But of course, as with most things in the Kinks, that was something that that Davy's brothers

fought over as well. Sort of how that guitar sound in that song came about. Dave claims that he bought a really cheap little amplifier and it sounded terrible and you couldn't get a good sound of it. So just out of pure curiosity, he took a razor blade and cut the speaker cone in the back, just just cut holes in it, just to see what would happen, because

it was a cheap piece of garbage. And then that's what led to that kind of like dog barking guitar sound that he got for you really got me um, and that meant a lot to him, like he felt that was like a huge part of his legacy. Of course, fifty years later, Ray claims that he did it and

he also had a jukebox musical in London. Uh, that kind of supported that the story that that Ray invented this guitar sound, and I've got really uptight about it and made a whole long Facebook post about my brother's lying. I'm just flabbergasted and shocked at the depth of his selfish desire to take credit for everything. I never once claimed songwriting royalties and you really got me. Yet this song would not have happened without my guitar sound, which

is true. Yeah, I mean, and it's fascinating how you know this song? It was their breakout hit. It came out in four so you know, fifty five years ago. Over fifty five years ago, and yet the core of the conflict between Ray and Dave, you can just see it all play out in this story because from Dave's perspective, the thing that he's always talked about over the years is that he feels that Ray isn't capable of giving

him credit. And there's an interview I read with him once where he likened his brother to a vampire and he says, he said, quote race sucks me of my ideas, emotions, and creativity. He's a control freak. And you know this

is something that exists in many bands. You know, we've talked about this in other episodes, where you know, there's someone at the head of the band that is looked at in the media as being the tour of the band and they get a lot of the credit, and then the other people in the band come to resent

it because they aren't getting credit for their contributions. In this story, you add the sibling rivalry aspect to it, which is like steroids basically like just pumping it into like the usual resentments that exists in a band, and it just totally exacerbates it um from race perspective. Though. I don't know, did you ever see that documentary Imaginary Man that came out, like Julian Temple movie came out

two thousand ten. There's this moment like early in the movie where like they're walking through I think it's like a schoolhouse. It was like at the old theater. Yeah, yeah, like one of the first places that The Kink's ever played, and they bring up you really Got Me, and Ray Davies says very seriously that, like that was the day I was born, you know, like that was the beginning of my life, and you really feel it for him, like this isn't is music for Ray Davies. This is

like his legacy. This is like such a huge thing for him, and it feels that way. I think the Dave Davies too, but like they're both fighting over this thing. It's almost like two kids fighting over a toy. It's like I had the toy first, it's mine, and they've been pulling at it, you know, for decades now. And it really again, it began with this first big hit that they had. I love that Ray compared that song

is something by Stockhausen. In that same scene in the documentary, it's like, I don't know, I don't know about that, Like it's a cool song, Ray, but I'm not sure if it's like, you know, avant garde jazz level. But uh, but no, you're right. I mean it happens again and again. Dave feels that Ray is not only pompous, but just is really not very generous with with awarding credit for input and help. And it's really sad. He said, you know, I looked up to him as a brother and a collaborator,

and he looked at me as a rival. And I think sad not only is a musical partner, but as you say as a remember of the family too, Ray thought of Dave as being this crazy kid playing these amazing guitar ramps. I think that's a direct quote from him, and he's not wrong, but he sensed this really sort of dismissive tone in that description of what Dave brought

to the band, which was such a vibe. I mean, I think the name the Kinks was actually born out of all the kind of wild fashions that Dave was wearing, like the long Chelsea boots with the huge heels, which we were called kinky boots in England, and like he would wear his girlfriends jackets and things like that and center apart his hair and and just kind of like play with androw Jenny years before you know, Boie was

on the scene or anything too. So Yeah, for considering how much of the soul that Dave brought to the band, I can see why he would be so frustrated. Well again, you know, I think when you listen to the Kinks music, there's a very obvious combination of like just this very delicate, beautiful songwriting and like the aggression and the violence of how the songs are played, and it's like the magic of that band, because you get everything that you could

possibly want from a rock band. You get like great melody, you get you know, just insightful lyrics, and yet it's very visceral, gut level music. Um and you don't have that if you don't have Dave contributing when he's bringing to it along with obviously these great songs that Ray

was writing. And it's really funny you because I was really trying to figure out, like, who would he Ray have been inspired by as a lyricist in that era, because you said that there's they're so literate, and I'm thinking, like maybe Bob Dylan, But I can't even because Sid Barrett, I think was another eighteen months or two years down the road. Like it really is so singular. I can't think of anybody that he would have drawn from. Maybe music hall stuff, I guess. I think he talks about

that imaginary man too. But yeah, it really so different to anything that was happening on the scene. Yeah, and I think I mean, obviously the things that people always talking about with the Kinks is their subject matter that they were writing about. Um. Well, first of all, writing very English songs like unlike the Beatles and the Stones.

The Kinks didn't try to sound American, you know, they were upfront with their englishness, which is what has made them one of the most influential, if not the most influential British rock band and other British rock bands. I mean, there's so many bands that have like just taken their cues from The Kinks, whether it's The Jam, the Smith's, you know, Oasis, all the way down the Linebutines, yeah, exactly. But then there's also like the domestic things that he

was writing about. He wasn't writing about the sort of typical sex, drokes and rock and roll things. He was writing about regular people living lives I guess of quiet desperation if you will. And I mean, and that seems like it was directly drawn from his own life. Oh yeah, I mean it was like like a kitchen sync drama put to music, dead End Street and a devastating song. Means, shankra Law is incredible just the way that it captured

I mean, all of obviously village green preservation society. Yeah. No, it's really interesting that he almost seems like he's drawn more from like like dramatists like Joe Orton or something like that than than jaggered Richards or anything like that. But that's what Dave brought to it. But I also want to talk about one of my favorite incidents from the their mid sixties period, which is Ray Davy's wedding. There obviously they're they're there butting heads outside of the

studio as well. Ray gets married, he asks his brother Dave to act as best man. His only brother, Dave to act as best man. Um, Dave drinks a lot at the wedding ceremony. By the time he gets up to give a speech, he just gets up and says he's too piste to give it. Sits back down. Uh. He's found a short time later in a bedroom by his sister in the middle of having sex with the maid of honor. So yeah, not a great family moment there.

And um, although I had to wonder if he didn't get along well with Ray's wife because I guess Ray really used her as a sounding board to like a really extreme extent, like he would bring her into the studio, I think, and she would be on like the talk back Mike, like offering her opinions and stuff. I think. So maybe Dave had a had an extra grind with her too. I don't know. Yeah, that's an interesting part of the story which I didn't totally know until we started,

you know, researching for this episode. I mean, it is almost like a pre John and Yoko type dynamic going on in The Kinks. In that regard. What's interesting to me is that, you know, Ray and Dave at this point,

we're living very different lives. You have Ray settling down into this domestic life, and then you have Dave, who is really living the life of a rock star and he's written about that about you know, all the adventures that he had with chemicals and different sexual adventures that he was having in the mid sixties, and he's like really kind of taking advantage of, like all of the revolutions that were happening in culture at that time. And you have Ray, who I think, you know, obviously he

loved his wife. He loved her enough to sort of involve her in the creative aspect of the band, but you can also see that he was suffering some misery, you know, from this kind of life. You know, there's this well known story about him having a breakdown during this period, like this emotional breakdown that was caused both by the responsibilities that he had as a family man and also just the role that he had in the Kinks, that he was the one expected to keep coming up

with hit songs and writing songs for the albums. And there's this fame a story I think did this happened like when they were on tour, where like he basically just like hold himself up in a in a room and with like a bunch of beer and just got loaded and like wouldn't come out for a week. Oh yeah, his daughter was born and like a week later they're like, oh, yeah, that's cool, congrats on your daughter. You gotta go to America now, so uh so, yeah, a week after his

daughter's birth, he had to go out on tour. He didn't really want to do. He's already exhausted and yeah, he just got to create a beer ship to his hotel and stayed in the hotel room and just got loaded every day. So he's having a really tough time. And you know, when you hear about these stories, it makes me think again about the songs that Ray Davies was writing at this time, and he was writing again

about these regular people living in domestic situations. You know, whether it's like a Well Respected Man or Sunny Afternoon, all these classic songs where it's about the facade of suburban happiness concealing like a deep dissatisfaction and alienation. And I thought a lot about this song. It's on the album Something Else. It's called Two Sisters, which is one

of my favorite Kinks songs. And in that song, it's about these two sisters, one who is a housewife and the other who's like this free spirited woman going about town, and the housewife is very jealous of her sister, and um, at the end of the song, the woman realizes that no, she's happier actually being at home with her family, and she actually now feels sorry for a quote that wayward lass. That's how he she refers to her sister in the song.

And like, it seems pretty obvious that this is a song about Ray looking at his brother Dave, that maybe on some level he felt jealous of Dave, but he justified his own life to himself by saying that, like, well, he's probably actually miserable being out there partying and having sex with a bunch of people. I'm better off being where I am. I mean, doesn't that seem like a

pretty straightforward interpretation of that song. Yeah, and I always thought that songs like Dandy and Dedicated Follower of Fashion, we're kind of like taking the piss out of Dave too. It just sort of they're they're very like looking down his nose at these people who are just like you know, in the cool scene. And so I guess when you put that alongside two sisters, you're right. I think he's definitely talking to him and two brothers are probably a

little two on the nose. But yeah, that's an incredible song. So you have Ray Dave fighting, Dave is having sex with the maid of honor at Ray's wedding. Ray's writing bitchy songs that seemed like subtweets about his brother. How did this affect the rest of the band? I mean, like, I feel like the tension that was existing between the brothers, I mean, they created other problems in the Kinks, didn't it.

I think at some point pretty much everybody in the Kings it was almost like fleetwood Mac level of like drawing out the map of who hey two and what the alliances are. The big other tension in the band was between Dave and his former roommate Mick Avery the drummer, and this Uh, they had a big blow up on stage in Wales, I think in There are two songs into their set, and I guess Dave wasn't liking the sound that Mick was getting out of his drum kit.

So he turned around and said, why don't you get your cock out and play snare with it, It'll probably sound better, which incredible, incredible. Mick did not like that, and uh didn't take too kindly to that suggestion, and so he took a symbol and hurled it like Frisbee style at Dave's head, which you know, frisbee that's like odd job and goldfinger that's like that. That could that could kill someone. So it hits Dave and he falls to the floor on the stage. He's unconscious, he's bleeding.

I think he needed like sixteen stitches or something. Ray is screaming. You know, this is all in front of a huge crowd, the whole pack theater. Ray is screaming, my brother, my brother, They killed my brother. Mick thinks, oh, should I killed his brother. He just books it off stage,

out of the theater rooms. At that point, the police pick him up and he denies it, and then they're like, dude, there were several thousand people who watched this happen, Like no, so yeah that that was fun and Amazingly, again, the band that fights together stays together. He stayed with the band for another couple of decades. I think, all right hand,

we'll be right back with more rivals. You know, like, let's say you go see the Kinks in like nineteen sixty nineteen sixty six, are you disappointed if the drummer doesn't throw his symbol at Dave Davies? Are you sort of like a man? I saw the Kinks and they just played like this seen songs and it was really good. But like whatever, there was no fighting, there's no emotional breakdowns on stage. I feel like the people that saw that show were like, this is the best rock show

I've ever seen. I mean, you know, like they almost killed each other right in front of us. You know, they'd be amazing. I mean, but like that was their reputation. And then in sixties and like this story blows me away. I can't think of another band that this is true of.

Like they were actually banned from coming into America, like which that literally happened there was like there was the union was that the American Federation of Musicians they issued a boycott of the Kinks from nineteen sixty four in nineteen sixty eight, which you know, just think of like your favorite British rock bands from the sixties sixty to sixty eight is like a big chunk of time that is like the heart of you know, I guess the

second wave of the British invasion, and they weren't allowed to come into the country, and I mean, I think some of it had to do with their reputation, but like didn't they also just like piste off a bunch of promoters in America too, like like what like what was the explanation for that? There are a couple of things.

There was their reputation. They got into some fight backstage with one of Dick Clark's producers who basically thought that all English people were communists and started to slagging off British people and Ray and Dave, we're not going to stand for that. They joined forces for for King and Country on that one, and so really piste off somebody at ABC. And then I think the main problem was there was a show in Sacramento, and I forget what

happened with the promoter. I think the promoter tried to like in advance, tried to like lower the rate they're gonna pay them or something. They were piste off at this promoter. So they went out on stage and instead of playing a full set, they just played one forty five minute long version if You Really Got Me, which is kind of awesome. Like I would almost rather see that they invented the Grateful Dead just by being it. You know, they were like, We're gonna be jerks and

invent like jam bands tonight. I mean, there's probably no chance that that was recorded by anyone, but like, how much would you want to hear the forty five minute piste off version of You Really Got Me? I mean that would just be unbelievable and not believe me. I I checked when I when I heard that story, I have not been able to find it, but oh my god.

So there's all of that, and then there's also people of theorized that they just you know, didn't pay off the right people that you needed to pay off when you were a rowdy band dealing with the piste off American federations and musicians. So yeah, it was just bad

strategy all around. I mean, I think it's interesting thinking about this now because again, like there was this four year period where the Kinks couldn't tour in America, you know, America being like the number one touring market in the world, and I don't think there's any question that that adversely affected their career. I mean, I think that they probably even today, like would be more famous if they could have toured America and possibly sold more records here in

the States um during that time. But in a way too, I wonder if that helped them because it did make them again not as overexposed as some of their peers, and also it made them seem more special in a way, I think, uh, and it also made them seem like outlaws, you know, like I definitely helped their rock and roll credibility in a way. And I also wonder too if that contributed to what Ray was writing about, was like, Okay, well we're kind of dead in America. We can't get there.

I'm gonna write up to this really local audience that kind of isn't really being served about things that that they know and relate to in their own lives too, and that was why it seems so quintessentially English, was that he was really just writing to them because he wasn't trying to break into a bigger market. So I don't know, it was a theory. I think that's totally right.

And I think, you know, like here in America, there's always that subset of people, and I think you and I belong in this subset who like fetishize English music, you know, like groups that are really into their englishness. Uh you know, you know they call them angle files here in America. You know that we we like that idea. It just kind of makes it exotic in a way, even though they're singing about, you know, village greens, Like what's the village green? I have no idea what that is,

but you know, like village Green preservation Society. Now, I mean like we look at that as being this classic record. Of course, it comes out in um and I think for a lot of people that's considered like the greatest Kinks album. But when that album came out, I mean it was like an enormous flop. I mean I think it only sold like a couple of thousand copies in

its first week. At the same time that like the Beatles, we're putting out the White album and like literally selling like millions of copies, you know, right after that album dropped. I mean like they were pretty dead in the water

commercially at that time, which is interesting too. I mean, you think of the sounds is different than definitely not doing anymore that like you really Got Me type stuff, which probably in sixty eight with hendrickson cream and all the more heavy guitar sounding stuff might have been better suited to him rather than doing these kind of delicate, village green type almost folky songs. And it's also it's riots in Paris, Chicago, Budapest, assassinations of Martin Luther King,

and Robert Kennedy's tet, offensive in Vietnam. It's just a very violent, bloody year. And I feel this way about the Beach Boy's Friends album too. I feel like this kind of delicate, sweet, small scale record was just absolutely ripped to shreds in this like put out into this environment. No one wanted to hear that, which is a shame because, like you said, it's one of my favorite albums of

there's two. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like the Kinks went out of their way to like be irrelevant at time, like like, we're not going to address any of the social unrest that's going on. We're not even gonna really make a record that like addresses anything that is contemporary,

Like we're looking backward. We're looking like at the history of our country and also at the double edged sword of tradition, you know, like where I think a lot of bands at that time, you know, they were looking at the conventions of society in a very skeptical way, and Ray Davies could do that, but he also I think had more affection for that than a lot of other British rockers at the time, which again just put him out of step with what was going on in

the culture. Yeah, I was thinking of if the Beatles went from releasing Rubber Soul to them an album that was like strictly when I'm sixty four, Martha my dear type stuff. You know that every gonna be like wait, what, what what are you doing? Like Okay, you get one of these per album, but like the whole thing, like you're you're way too into this. Yeah, Like they just leave helter skelter and Revolution on the cutting room floor and we're just going to do the old timing soft

shoe ballads. Yeah, that totally. Yeah, So the Kings were out of step, and I feel like that is what led to Dave Davies pursuing a solo career. I mean, is that safe to say that, Like maybe there was a sense that the Kinks were on their way out, so then Dave was going to try to step out on his own. And because he was like the young guitar player, he was like pretty cute, it seemed like maybe like he could position himself to be a star in his own. Ray was really out of commission for

a while. I think this was around the time when he had another breakdown at his home where he literally like walked several miles from a suburban home into London, like just on foot, very like Peter Green style. I think it was a similar story with him where he he liked went to his PR person and like threatened him and and ended up being like sent off to a to a facility somewhere to like and sedated. Yeah.

He Ray was really going through a tough time right now, so Dave probably thought, you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna distansce myself a bit and try to like at least keep my musical career afloat, and he did very well. His song Death of a Clown, which was co written with Ray and included on I think it was on something Else by the Kinks, went to number three in London and I think sixty seven, so you know, not too shabby. Also amazing song, one of my favorite Kinks songs.

This is the thing about Dave Davies is that, like he's not a prolific songwriter, but many of his songs are like among are among my favorite Kinks songs, like death of a Clown, which again you know is co written by Ray, so he deserves some credit for that as well. But like that's like a top five Kink song for me, and I think of the song Strangers To from the Lola album um is definitely like in

my top five. So he is kind of like a George Harrison figure a little bit in this band that like you've got the dominant songwriter who is the acknowledge genius, but like Dave was asserting himself too, But that seemed like that was also always a challenge in the Kinks that, like Ray was not gonna let Dave have like too much material on a Kink's record. What do you think of Susannah is Still Alive, which I think also did really well too after Death of Ane. I think it

got to like number twenty or something. It's a pretty good song. That's another a great song. I love that song too. I mean, like the thing with Dave Davies is that I think he's like he has a similar sensibility to his brother, but it's always just like a little more raw. Like his voice I think is like such a great instrument where it has a wildness to

it. It It minds me again. I keep comparing them to other British rock bands, but like Dave as a lead vocalist and especially as a harmony vocalist, it reminds me of like Keith Richards, where it's like sometimes he's harmonizing with Ray and sometimes he's kind of like shouting like over over Ray. But it's such like a high, lonesome emotional quality to it, and it always draws me in and I will say that, you know, I mean, I think he was born to be a sideman to his brother. Ultimately,

really yeah, I do things. I mean, Ray is like one of the greatest songwriters ever. Uh, certainly in British rock. What Dave brought to his songs and what he brought to King's records, like with his own songs, like these songs that could be kind of a contrast to what Ray was doing. It was such a great sort of pinch of like garlic, you know in the stew of of of the Kinks. Uh. I mean it really wasn't valuable.

I always got the impression, I mean, maybe I just have Nolan Liam on the brain, but personality wise, Dave felt like more of a of a lead vocalist to me, and I was always kind of surprised that he wasn't. I mean, I always thought he had the talent, and I could see just Ray more personality kind of wanting to be the rhythm guitarist in the back who was the one making all these great songs like nol. But yeah, that that always surprised me that they went that way.

I mean you can see like once the Kinks moved into the seventies that Ray becomes like much more demonstrative, where at times like if you watch if you go on YouTube and you see like Kinks performances from the nineteen seventy two seventy three. It's almost like Ray is trying to be like Mick Jagger a little bit. Like there was a period I think where he stopped playing guitar on stage a lot, and he would kind of prance around and you know, be more of a front man.

I also wonder how much that had to do with his life falling apart a little bit around that time. I mean, because you know, like like by seventy three, his marriage I think had ended, and it seems like he was really hitting like the Booze and the Pills pretty hard at that time. Yeah, which is a shame because the albums they released from like sixty eight to seventy three or actually some of my favorites. Actually Arthur

is I think my favorite Kinks record. I just think that's an amazing as a concept of songs start to finish just are unbelievable. What do you think of Arthur? Yeah, that's like probably my favorite too. Like Arthur, you know, it either be Arthur, like Lola is awesome, Muswell Hillbillies, I mean, Village Green is great. I mean Arthur on most days is my favorite, but like there's other days where I could pick any one of those other records.

But you're right. I mean it came out of a tremendous amount of pain for him, and he had a major collapse on stage right like in the middle of a show. Yeah, in nineteen seventy three. It was and uh, I mean, and I think that's like when his wife left him, like like he was married at two daughter as his wife left, And I mean it's like a very dramatic type thing. I mean, didn't he like kiss his brother in the cheek or something and say like thank you all for everything you've done, but I'm but

I'm done. I mean it's almost sort of like like a suicide note type breakup. I mean, it's very alarming when it happened. Oh yeah, I think that was the same night that he went home and took a bottle of pills and went to his girlfriend and basically told her what he'd done. And he was rushed to a London hospital and when he arrived, he declared, I'm Ray Davies and I'm dying before collapsing in the lobby elements

of drama there. You're not wrong, I think years later he tried to explain it away being like, you know what, I was having a really hard time. Dr gave me these pills and said take one of these when you feel bad, and I was feeling bad a lot. But I think another time he basically admitted, like, yeah it was it was a suicide attempt, and like, you know, to his credit, like Dave stepped up and he was

I think pretty supportive him him at this time. I mean he took him to Denmark, I think, like on a vacation and uh, I think he was like playing him chuck Berry songs or maybe they were jamming on chuck Berry songs together. But he's basically trying to cheer his brother up, and I feel like that worked for him at that time. Yeah, I definitely raised his spirits.

But I personally liked to almost pretend that the band broke up after everybody's in show biz because I all the mid seventies stuff I I just I can't deal with. I mean, the good news was Race survived, his spirit was restored. The bad news is the stuff he released for I think the rest of the seventies was terrible. I read somebody's quote once said Gray David spent the sixties building reputation as a great songwriter and the seventies

destroying that reputation. And I don't know, I just when was the last time you listen to Preservation Act one or Act two? Like? Well, I have to say that I recently made a playlist of fourteen songs taken from those two albums, and with the idea being that like, Okay, I'm gonna be the A and R guy for the Kinks, that the one that they didn't have in the seventies.

I'm gonna say, like, you can't put these two albums out, but I'm gonna take the best songs and make one record and we're not going to care about this storyline, you know, the storyline of Preservation Act which I don't even want to get into. It's it's sort of like the music Man, isn't it. Isn't it Like a guy comes into a town and he's like conning them blah blah blah. Anyway, but he's just like darl Quinn too, isn't he. There's like something really tragic outfit that he

were on stage. Yeah, yeah, he looks like the Riddler at times, But this thing is really it doesn't really work. But like the album I made from those two albums, I think is actually quite good. I mean, there's songs on there like Sweet Genevieve, which is a great song. Um, there's a bunch of like really good songs from that

from that era. But you're right, I mean, I think the problem was that instead of just focusing on great songs, he got distracted with these big concepts like albums like Sleepwalker and Misfits, like where the Kinks were taking cues from the punk bands that they inspired originally, you know, like they were making records that were kind of in the style of like The Am or The Clash a little bit, although with more of like an arena rock type sheme to it. So I think those albums are

actually pretty good. I'd recommend those. But you're right, I mean, I think at this time it was more about the Kinks legend, and a lot of that legend had to do with Ray and Dave hating each other, and I wondered too, Ray, now that he had access to America again, was really trying to fight for sort of the the global critical acclaim that he felt he'd been denied, with stuff like Village Green and Arthur and stuff which you know,

we're not massive hits. I mean lowlow Side. I don't really think that they reached their mid sixties commercial peak again until the MTV are right. So I could see him just like really gunning for almost like Brian Wilson level, like no, I'm gonna make a statement, and no one

was interested. So then when they would do albums like Low Budget or Misfits or Sleepwalker, that was when they were signed with Clive Davis on Arista, and I can imagine Clive Davis was just like no, no, just he I could see him being really instrumental and just telling them that give me a hit. I don't care about this potential stuff, just give me a hit. And it worked. It worked, and I think the Kinks, you know, into the late seventies into the eighties, like we're a pretty

popular live act. Like they could go out and they could perform, and they would do these sort of like souped up versions of like their old sixties hits where they kind of sound like night Ranger playing like there's sixties hits. You know, it's just like kind of a

mixed bag at times. But you know, with all the tension that was going on, between Ryan Dave and again I think that um as the Kinks became this legacy act essentially, and this this band that you would go see because of their iconic status and maybe not so much for like the records that they were putting out at that particular time. So much of that was like about the relationship between Ryan Dave and like the continued

tension that would exist. And it's interesting like as they got older, how they would comment on that and their music, Like there's that song hatred uh from like one of their like their last studio records, which is Phobia from Have you heard that song? Oh my god, I thought it was it was satire, but it also there's so many specifics in are you could tell is definitely born from something. Yeah, this this is lyric And there you go. You keep on accusing me of making your life misery.

But if that's not abusing me, what Isn't you want to be my friend? Well it's too late. My love for you has turned to hate. And then so the finest lyricists of his generation. Yeah, I know, it's a little Kinks by numbers, you know, And again it just seems like, Okay, our relationship has been a problem in this band for a long time. But now like we're gonna have sort of like a winking acknowledgement of it.

We're gonna, you know, make it work for us that we know, we're gonna play it up almost like again

like a pro wrestling aspect, which I think happened. I mean, we talked about that in our our Liam and Noel Gallagher episode that I think especially for Liam Gallagher and in recent years he has been playing up that the pro wrestling aspect of his tension with his brother, that like there's a performative aspect to it where it's like, well, this is what people expect, so like we we have to acknowledge it, we have to have fun with it. Like there's this clip on YouTube of Ray and Dave

giving an interview. I think it's like on Entertainment Tonight around Yeah, And like I think I don't know if they're promoting Phobia or some other Kink's record, but like, isn't there a clip like we're like Ray starts like choking Dave or is it the around? I think it was. I think it was Ray choking Dave. Yeah, And it's and I think that I think it was for phobia, and I think that they're talking about hatred, which you know, really like you said, I think it was maybe more

of a pro wrestling move, but I don't know. Dave seems genuinely annoyed. He's like every time he starts to try to speak, Ray kind of like cuts him off. And it's funny for a bit, but Ray then just pushes a little too far and Dave starts getting like it seems real. It's it's definitely a fun watch though. Yeah. So there's again this aspect where it's performative, but it's also not performative like they're playing it up in the media. But they also don't really like each other, and it

really comes to a head. I guess what, Like I mean, that's when they broke up. Yeah, I mean Phobia I think added as high as like a hundred and sixty six for one week on the charts and step so commercially, they were not at their peak, and so there wasn't a huge amount of reason to keep the pan together unless they actually liked being together, which it's pretty clear at this point they did not. And kind of the final straw for Dave was was his own birthday party. Ray. Uh,

he wanted to throw himself a birthday party. I guess he didn't have the money, so Ray did it for him, and he threw this big party. And then Ray got up on the table and gave a toast was supposed to be for Dave, but just wound up Ray praising himself, saying what a great guy was, and then ending the toast by stomping on the cake, the birthday cake for his brother, which echoes of of the wedding, maybe echoes of Ray's wedding where where Dave got drunk and didn't

give a speech. Maybe I don't know. I thought that was a nice way to book end their just functional Kink's career. But um, so you think he was playing a long game with that. You think he was like waiting for like another occasion where he could just like, Okay, you ruin my wedding, So I'm gonna I'm gonna wait twenty years or I guess it was third two years. I'm gonna pay for this cake and then I'm gonna stomp on it. Like that's how petty I am about you. I mean, I wouldn't put it past them. I mean,

there is this deep dislike. But yeah, I think when you stomp on your brother's birthday cake, your band is probably done. At that point. It's probably time to pack it in. Yeah, that's a new I mean, for all the feuds that we've talked about, I don't think there's been a stomping on a birthday cake incident yet. I think this is the first. Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. We've had shoe throwing, and we've had you know, various you know, fists being thrown and spittle being shot out of mouths,

but I never had a cake stomping. So thank you Ryan Dave for that. So the band is done after that. And what's interesting to me because like, again, this is the caink so there's never any shortage of drama. So they both have like these pretty terrible health scares. In the odds, I think they both occurred in two thousand four,

and the first was Dave like, didn't you have a stroke? Yeah, he was leaving like a book signing or something, and he got to have an elevator and all of a sudden he just collapsed on the floor and they rushed

into a hospital and he'd had a stroke. So he he sent home to recuperate, and Ray, to his credit, goes to look after him, and it's going along really well for a couple of weeks, and then, according to Dave at least, Ray couldn't stand not being the center of attention, so he started screaming, I'm in pain and oh my god, I got this like huge pain in my stomach. Something's going on. Take me to the hospital. He got to the hospital. Doctors, there's nothing wrong with you, Ray, Davies, like,

you're this is in your head. So Dave thinks that that he just can't stand to be the center of attention, which I enjoy that I don't know, psychosmatic pains. This makes the other story like pretty incredible because like later on A two thou four, Ray was actually like shot during an attempted robbery in New Orleans. I think he was like I think like his his girlfriend like like someone snatched her person. He like went after the thief and then he got shot. So maybe that's just him

being a glory hawk again. You know, it's like this is an opportunity he paid. It's ax episode, isn't it. That's something from Curb. He like pays somebody to like snatch somebody's purse so that so that he can like tackle into the ground and look like a hero. Same thing. So I mean, now we're at a point where, you know, they've had all this bad blood going on over the years, but like it looks like they're gonna really do this reunion, right.

I Mean the reason why I'm like a little unsure is because, like the way that this was announced was really weird. Oh so weird. I'd be like, Ray basically said it in the middle of an interview, but like it seems like he maybe wasn't supposed to say it. I mean, who answers their cell phone in the middle of a like a taped televised interview, So it almost made me seem like he wanted to get the guy's attention.

It seemed a little to stage. So he's giving an interview on I think BBC or something in his phone rings and he's like kind of muttering into it, and they stopped taping, and the interviewer was just kind of killing time waiting for Ray to hang up. And then Ray said, all right, Mike see at the pub. Later the interviewer say, wait, Mick, like Mick Avery, like the drummer for your old band, The Kinks, that you haven't played within twenty years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're we're we're

going to the pub later. Oh that's interesting. Why Oh yeah, we're gonna We're gonna get the Kinks back together. Wait are you serious? Yeah? It was just really like shambolic, like this is your big enough, Like you're doing it like in between takes of a TV interview to promote your new solo single. But yeah, I never understood why he did it that way, if it was staged, or if it was just a really poorly thought out announcement. Yeah, it's like the worst press release of all time. You know,

I don't understand that. But but you know, I mean, and of course, who knows when we're going to have tours again at any rate, So that that, you know, just the state of the world right now, it's hard to know, you know, what will happen with this reunion. You also don't want these guys commingually with with each other, you know, at least hopefully they'll be wearing masks, because I would assume Brand Dave are both in the highly

susceptible to you know, infectious diseases type camp. Hopefully they'll be all right, but you know, it would be great to see these guys playing together again. I also read too, I don't know if you saw this, but like this is a story from apparently like they live next door

to each other now in London. I didn't see that, or at least they have like houses next to each other, so like, I don't know, like maybe it's not like their primary residents, but like some London tabloid took a photo of Ray and Dave like taking out their garbage together or something. I've not heard that. Wow, So you know, this could either be like the best thing in their relationship or they could end up like burning each other's

houses down. You know, who knows what'll happen, but hopefully it won't happen before these guys actually get back together. We're gonna take a quick break to get a word from our sponsor before we get to more rivals. So this is the part of the episode where we look at the pro side of each part of the rivalry. And let's start with Dave Davies. You know, I think we've talked about this already at out just his stature

as an incredible guitar player. I think as a as a player who's been very influential in like punk and heavy metal, even if like Ray himself, has not always given his brother credit. I also think that he's like a pretty underrated songwriter. Like I said, like some of my favorite Kink songs are by Dave, not questioning the primacy of of Ray Davies in the Kinks, but Dave, I think again, being like the George Harrison of this band. UM, I think always applied a really nice dash of his

own voice to all the great Kinks records. UM. And again, ultimately, you know, you know, if we go back to what's at the heart of their conflict, it seems like they would argue about credit above anything else, and Ray not wanting to give Dave his props for what he contributed to the band. And I mean it seems like we both agree that like Dave has a point with that. Oh yeah, I think he's the soul of the band

a lot of ways. I see him as like how Dennis Wilson was the guy in the Beach Boys who actually served Dave was the one who was actually out in the scene that Ray was commenting on and kind of like feeding back the specifics of what was happening to him. I yeah, I always thought and even in the early photo shoots when they have the red hunting jackets and whips and all these kind of kinky things like that was Dave's idea. So I think that that so much of that in the band's image and soul

was from him. Like I said, I'm still so shocked that he wasn't a lead singer. I he really still seems like somebody that would have shown in that way. And although I guess the fact that he's still shown out just as kind of being a side guitar, I mean, he wasn't sside guitarist. He's Dave. Dave. He's one of the best guitarists ever. But like the fact that he was able to do so well not being a lead singer,

I think is impressive. His guitar playing Jesus Christ. I mean, they're all these rumors about Jimmy Page actually playing some of the guitar solos on the early Kinks songs. It's not true, but I love the story that Jimmy Page was apparently in the control room when they were playing Uh, Dave's guitar solo for All Day and All the Night back, and Jimmy just winced because he was like, what is that. That's not I do a guitar solo. But it's like

it's like the ultimate garage band guitar solo. I feel like he made the template, like him and the Kingsman Louis Louis uh lay the template for like garage rock. I feel like, oh yeah, and like, look again, if we talk about punk rock, they tried to play like Dave Davis, not Jimmy Page, you know, and like that sort of like anti technique that he brought to the guitar again is so influential, I think, uh and you know, anyone that just wanted to play gut level rock and roll,

like those early Kinks songs are just so essential. Uh yeah, and Dave has a lot to do with that going to the pro race side. Look I think again, like I said, I think he's like one of the great songwriters of of British rock. In a way, I feel like he's underrated now because you know, we we talked so much about you know, Lennon McCartney, Jagger Richards, you know, Pete Townsend, all the greats, all these people that had more commercial success and had a higher profile in America

than The Kinks did. But if you look at Ray's best material and just like how much melody there's in those songs, and like how smart the lyrics are, I feel like Ray really is uncommonly gifted. And you know, we've made several comparisons to Oasis in this episode, but like, to me, as much as I love Oasis and I love Noel Gallagher, he can't touch Ray Davies in terms of songwriting, especially like as a lyricist, Like as a lyricist,

they're not even in the same ballpark. And I think when you factor in those songs and the fact that so many people have covered them and they translate so well to different places, and like how again, I feel like because Ray Davies wrote about things that were not typical of the time, you know, he had to focus on England, he had to focus on sort of regular people.

You know. It's just proven to be so influential for people that are looking I think, for something a little bit different than like what you get from a traditional rock song. You know, as much as Dave I think contributed to the sound and the attitude of the Kinks. You know, at the heart of this band is the songs. And you've got to give Ray his credit for that. Oh yeah, I mean, especially in America, I think he's way more into rated than he should be, and he

gets so many props for his lyrics. But you're right as a melody maker, absolutely unparalleled. I mean, I can't believe we haven't mentioned Waterloo Sunset yet. I think one of the most gorgeous songs ever written, Like that's up there with God only knows for me in terms of like Days Davis beautiful, you know, you said Shank Rola

before That's beautiful, you know this time tomorrow. I mean, there's so many songs you could mention, if nothing else, if he'd never written anything other than Model lo son Set, I think that Ray deserves his knighthood and all the praise that he's ever gotten since. I mean, that's just unbelievable.

So when we look at these two guys together, you know, I think it's pretty clear that what made the Kings great, and what really makes any rock band great is a combination of songwriting and swagger, melody and mayhem and brains and balls, And I think Ray brought the former and Dave brought the ladder um. And also, you know, fighting is such a big part of the Kinks story and as you know, miserable as it was for these guys probably to be around each other, it makes for a

great rock band. I mean, we like that tension in bands. We like how that can create a lot of energy that translates in the music. And I think that spirit, that battling spirit um really gives these songs an edge that to this day makes them so powerful. Yeah, I mean, rock and rolls about so much aggression. I mean, you've got all the familial stuff that they're working out on stage and on the mic. You're right, it just kicks

it up to such another level. And it's interesting too that for all the differences of opinion and arguments that that Ray and David had over the years, it doesn't seem like they've had very many musical differences in terms

aside from credit. It seems like it was never like, no, it should go like this, No it should go like this, or I want more of my songs on there, which is interesting because you would think that there would be more fights about that, like in terms of like you know, with the band or something like that, with songwriting, credits and everything. But it's it's fast thing that really was personal.

It was I think Dave would later say, you know, Raise a clever guy, an observer, very good at expressing himself in music, very articulate about other people's feelings, but he wasn't good at expressing his own feelings or telling you how much he cares about you. And that's I think the crux of what went on between them. Yeah, man, it's it's an old story in rock and roll, it's an old story in the world. I mean, you know, we we joked about Cane and Abel in our Oaitis episode.

I mean, this is a very cane and an able app type story here um with with Ray and Dave. You know this idea again that like, you love this person, but you also feel like they're not giving you the respect that you deserve. And uh, it never goes away. Even as you are almost eighty years old now, like both of these guys, I feel like there's probably still some of that lingering between them. I just want you to Jordan that I respect what you bring to our show.

I think you are a well respected man. Oh Stephen, thank you so much. I like to tech this opportunity to say how much I care about you. Oh well, it's a sunny afternoon here on the Rivals podcast, So thank you all for listening on a Waterloo sunset over on the lake right where I am. Thanks for listening to this episode. We will be back with more rivals and beefs and long simmering resentments next week. M Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers

are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor Chicogne and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stat. I'm Jordan's run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows