Kill 'Em All: Metallica vs. Megadeth

to tackle the age old question Metallica or Megadeth. Yes, although I'm sure there's somebody out there who's mat that we're not also talking about Slayer and Anthrax, you know, all due respect to the Big Four, but we're focusing on Metallica and Megadeth because these bands are linked by one Dave mus Stain, who used to be a Metallica and then was kicked out before they put out their first record, Kill Them All in the eighty three. After that he formed Megadeth with the goal of the throning

Metallica from the top of the thrash metal heap. Uh. He's like Robert de Niro in Cape Fear and Metallica is the Nickna character. That's amazing. Yes, I mean you know, it's not gonna come as much of a surprise that I'm not the world's biggest metal head. But the feud between Dave Mustain and his ex Metallica bandmates fascinates me to no end. It's just one of the most intense band on band rivalries ever because it's so damn personal.

Mustain was fired from the group literally days before they went into the studio to record their first album, which sent him on the road to being the biggest metal band ever. They put him on a cross country greyhound Penny listens scrounging for potato chips for four days with nothing to do but plot is revenge, that's cold, and he forms Mega Death in an attempt to out metal Metallica. And just imagine being defined by your worst moment. That's

pretty much what happened to Dave Mustain. His entire life was shaped by the single incident. And Mustain, to me, is such a compelling, tragic comic hero. He's like Gatsby. He just can't let go of the past, and even when he tries, he can't escape it. It's Metallica. They're

that ubiquitous, They're that assive. No matter how big Megadeth get they'll never be Metallica, And yet I know there are true blue metal fans out there who prefer Megadeth to Metallica for the very reason that Megadeth never really went pop. You know, they've stayed true to the metal path for about thirty five years while Metallica pursued MTV

fame and power ballot hits. Dave Mustain isn't as famous as Lars al Rick, but de Mustain also never became the focus of scorn because he spoke out against napster, you know. So you know there are cases for success, whether it's commercial or artistic, to be made on both sides of this equation. So without further ado, let's get into this mess. Like so many of life and pleasantries,

this whole thing is Laras al Ric's fault. It was he who put the classified ad in a local newspaper which read drummer looking for another metal musicians the jam with Tigers of Pentang, Diamond Head and Iron Maiden. Those were his influences, it was, and the teenage Lars had recently immigrated to l A from Denmark with dreams of becoming a pro hennis player like his father. But then he fell prey to the new wave of a British heavy metal heralded by the likes of Diamond Head Iron

Maiden Venom. His ad was answered by James Headfield, and James was this painfully shy kid from the l a suburb of Downey, which is also home of the Carpenters. Interestingly enough, he had had Field hit it off and that became the nucleus of Metallica. If Van Halen was Eddie and Alex, Metallica had these two, and you know, when all is said and done, they're the only two

consistent members now. Another guy that answered Lars ulriks ad was Dave Mustain, and Mustain at that time he had played in a local band called Panic, but that band ended fairly early on because both the drummer and the sound guy were killed after their second show, which is unbelievable, like a very I guess metal way for a metal band to end. But Dave Mustain was sent adrift by this. It's the first, I guess of many heartbreaks for him

in terms of losing out on rock bands. But he shows up to the Metallica audition and Lars and Jays are very impressed. By both his gear and his ability to shred on guitar, and they invited him to join the band and they find that like I think, Dave initially fit in because him and James had a similar background. Dave Mustain was raised as a Jehovah's witness and James Hetfield was raised as a Christian scientist, so they had that very strict religious background that of course drove them

into metal music. Eventually. They also both had to deal with fathers who had walked out on their families early on, so they I think we're both dealing with abandonment issues. Unfortunately, Dave Mustain was going to have those abandonment issues compounded by his experience in Metallica. But of course we're getting

ahead of ourselves. In early two, Metallica recorded their first original song, Hit the Lights, for the Metal Massacre one compilation, and they started playing gigs around l A. But they really struggled to fit into the rock scene, which at that time was basically spandex hair metal strippers partying all

that sunset striped stuff. And this wasn't Metallica. Like David Stain would later say, the other bands wanted the girl we wanted to rule the world, and they responded to the apathy of the crowds by simply playing louder and faster than anyone, which became a hallmark of their sound. And in the early days of the band, Dave Mustain was really seen as the virtuos, so he was sort

of a guy out front, the focal point. People who knew the band at that time, like Scott Anna Amtrax, he would say he was the frontman, he was the mouthpiece, he was the personality. James Hetfield was still pretty reserved and developing his own stage persona, and in later years Dave Mustain would accuse James being jealous of getting being the one who got all the attention during these early shows because of his own natural charisma. He would say,

James whole frontman persona he copped from me. In the beginning of the band, he just sang and I did all the guitar work. When he was done singing, he'd walk away from the microphone and I had to walk up to the mic and talk. Now, in case it's not already apparent, Dave Mustain is like a pretty abrasive character. Like I interviewed Da Mustain a long time ago, and

he was like a pretty intimidating dude. And you know, I remember asking questions and he would like pause for like it felt like thirty seconds before he would answer, you know, I think, just to make me feel like an idiot for asking him any questions. Wait, this was two, so this was some kind of Monster era. Yeah, well this is like before some kind of Monster. So I don't think that. I don't think the movie was out yet.

We were talking about whatever Mega Death record, which just like a guy on the screen was who you Oh my god, that's terrifying. Wow. Yeah. So I think even like when David Stain was sober, he was a pretty difficult guy to deal with. But in Metallica, the issues with him really started to arise because of his drinking. Now that seems a little weird to talk about with Metallica because they are one of the most famously like

hard drinking bands of all time, famously nicknamed Alcoholica. Uh and you know, if you've seen some kind of Monster, you know you know that history with the band. But David Stain really reminds me of that friend that I think we all had in college at one point where they were basically the drunken asshole friend, you know, the friend that like, you know, you like them when they're sober, but like when you got to the bars that they have a few too many drinks, they just turned into

this very sort of confrontational, aggressive person. And that's what Dave Mustain was like. You know, he later said, you know, I would drink and have fun until someone would refute something I had said, and then that was war. Baby. I'd be aggressive and confrontational because I was a violent drunk. So you know, if you're hanging out your partying, everyone's having a good time, but then you have one guy who just like wants to get into arguments all the

time and is being pushy about his opinions. I mean, it's that can be a pretty like wearies something to be around. So there's that issue with Dave Mustain. There's also something, uh that ends up being a pretty big deal. I guess we'll call it the dog incident uh Metallica, where at an earlier rehearsal, Dave Mustain brought his dog to the rehearsal and UH this dog was particularly troublesome to the band's basis at the time, whose name was Ron mcgoverney total basis name. By the way, I love

the name Rob mcg Derek mcquickly. It's like this exact metal name. But yeah, it just reminds me of like a nondescript basis Like you knew Ron mcgoverney was not going to be the guy. He was not destined for the long haul. Yeah, it's like if your name is Ron mcgoverney, you're you're going to be like a blip

in the industry of metalica. But anyway, Mustain brings his dog to the rehearsal and apparently this dog ends up scratching Ron mcgoverney's car, and James Hedfield is so incensed by this that he like kicks the dog, which is not cool to kick a dog, and Dad Mustain, you know, he is a drunken asshole, but I think in this case he was justified and getting upset and he actually like just pulled back and like punched James Hedfield in the mouth over this, and apparently, like ms Stain was

like fired over this fight, but then they brought him back shortly after. But you know, after you punch someone in your band in the mouth, things are not hard

going to be the same after that. Yeah, so it seems like at that point Mustain his position in Metalica wasn't terribly tenable at this point, and he continued to terrorize poor Ron mcgoverney when he was drunk, and there was occasion where he poured beer down the neck of his bass, which caused the pickups on his base to short out, and Ron freaked out and threw everybody out of his house. I mean, Ron just he couldn't hang basically, I mean the North should he He He shouldn't have to

deal with that. So poor mcgifney, the band, and poor mcgoverney. He left the band very soon after, and uh as a replacement, Metallica set out to recruit Cliff Burton, who was in the Bay Area band called Trauma, and he could play these mind meltingly good bass solos and they almost sounded like guitar solos. They were so so dexterous. They were just so so fast and furious, and James and Larns has seen him perform and they were just

absolutely captivated. So they began trying to woo him, and he agreed on the condition that the band relocated to northern California and That's how Metallica became one of San Francisco's favorite sons. It seems pretty amazing that like Metallica would pick up and moved to a different part of the state just because of Cliff Burton. You know, like they're already established in Los Angeles, but it's like they wanted him in the band so bad that they were

willing to move, you know, several hundred miles north. Can you blame him? No? I mean it really speaks to like how amazing Cliff Burton was. I mean, he was like the Jaco Pistorius of like metal bass playing, you know, just a virtuoso and putting him in the band and you know, sending up poor Ron mcgoverney into the dustbin of history. I mean it really was putting Metallica on their way to becoming like this huge band that's going

to change the world. But of course there's still this guy didn't standing in the band, who is not going

to be sticking around much longer. No, it really it goes down on the trip to New York and Lars have been circulating their seventh song demo, No No Life to Leather, and one copy landed in the hands of a character named was Johnny z And by day he ran a New Jersey flea market called Rock and Roll Heaven, which was this local metal mecca, and he started a label called Megaforce Records, and he and he liked the band.

He like what he heard, and he offered to pay for them to drive out so he could work with them. So the Metallica drove a U Hall van supposedly a stolen you Hale van uh and drove this across the country and they would stop along the way at friends houses where Davos Dan would get really wrong and trash their friends houses. And this really was sort of the last straw for everybody in the band. I mean, this guy was just disrespecting their friends homes and property that

he he had to go. So they get to New York and they're staying at I think it was Anthrax's practice space up in Queens. I mean they were sleeping on like U haul blankets and eating they called him blowny on hand sandwiches. They didn't even have white bread, they just had blowney that they would just eat raw. Uh, you know, really really low resource. And they were playing a couple of gigs in New York and and Dave would get drunk during sound checks and heckle the headliners

and stuff. He was just a huge liability at this point. In addition to being unpleasant to be around. You could tell he was He was just a liability because of his drinking. And this really sets the stage for probably one of the most notorious band dismissals in rock history. I love that we know the date that he was fired, April eleven three, a day that will forever live in metal infamy. Dave Mustain wakes up. He's sleeping on this I think Mattress essentially just laid on the floor of

their rehearsal space and he wakes up. He just hung over his hell and he looks up and he sees James Hedefield, Lars Alric and Cliff Burton standing above him,

and they tell him essentially that you're fired. And not only are you fired, but like we bought a bus ticket for you, like a four day Greyhound trip back to California, and it leaves in an hour, so and the stain is like, you know, days again, he's you know, drank hard the night before, so he's really hungover, doesn't really know what's going on and I mean it seems like this was intentional, like they were ambushing him in this weekend state because they didn't want to have a

fight about it. You know. It seems like they just wanted to get this over as quickly as possible. There's that story that Mustain tells that like he boarded the bus with like a small bag of potato chips and that was it. Like that was like one of the details that he remembers that he all he had to eat was potato chips and shove him on right. Yeah,

he was wasted. He's hungover. They shove him on this bus with potato chips and uh, he's gone out of the band and like James and large, they spend the rest of the day just getting wasted, you know, because I think they felt bad about doing this, but they knew ultimately that there was no other choice. That Dave Mustain was, uh, you know, just a terrible person to be around. You know again, like we've all known someone like that that maybe for a while it's kind of

fun to hang out with them. But for all of Mustain's talent as a as a guitar player, and also you know, the Christmas that he had on stage. I think Metallica felt like, Okay, we're approaching a point where we're gonna maybe be able to put a record, and we're not going to be able to get to where

we're going. Get this guy's in the band. It does make me think about that story in Guns and Roses, like when they fired Steven Adler for like doing too many drugs, And it is sort of a weird thing again because Metallica was this famously hard drinking band to fire a guy for drinking too much, you know, it is that situation like we're writing speeding tickets at the ND five hundred, you know, like this one guy gets punished for what everyone else in the group is doing.

But again, it does seem like Metallica maybe really had no other choice. And now I think was really what hurt too from mistake was that, you know, he would admit in later years like, yeah, I should have been kicked out of Metallica, I should have been kicked out of Megadeth. That could be quite honest, Like I I know that I was not good to be around. I think he resented the lack of warning and the lack of an option of going to get treatment, which James

himself did in later years. So I think it was really the double standard was like, why did I get kicked out of this band? Well, James Hetfield was treated with compassion. I mean, I'm sure over the twenty years between those two incidents, like we understood how to treat addiction and alcohol wasn't a lot better. But still there was an element, like you said, was it me? Did they just want me out of the band? Was a rejection of me and not my my disease, not wanting

to deal with with my problem. And I think that really hurt him because, you know, it was the second time in a few years that a band had been just ripped away from him in an instant, you know, in a space of two hours. He lost the people that he considered to be his best friends and the band that he allowed to define himself. And now he just had four days on a gray hund bus with a bag of potato chips to just moll this over

and you know, seething, receiving and plotting revenge. It seems like it's it seems like his dreams of revenge like started like almost immediate immediately, Oh totally. I mean, he he's bored to tears, and he's like, you know, trying to read anything can get his hands on and get his mind off of, you know, what his life's become in this moment. And he gets his hand on a handbill from a Democratic Senator, Alan Cranston, I think is his name, and he warned against an escalating nuclear threat.

And the phrase on this handbill was the arsenal of Megadeth, can't be ridd And that phrase inspired Mustains scribbled down lyrics to a song, and ultimately that was the name for his next band. Of course, he took out the A in death. That was, like, I guess, the final poetic stroke of genius for exactly take out the A

and death and we have a most metal name. So while Davostain is on this bus plotting revenge against Metallica, Metallica already had a replacement lined up for Dave Mustain and that is, of course Kirk Hammett, who was the guitarist in Metallica to this day. They he was a member at the time of a Bay Area band called Exodus,

which is also a very famous metal band. They flew him out to New York to audition Malcome exactly didn't take the bus, but exactly apparently he impressed the guys of Metallica by just nailing Dave Mustain solos on songs like so He Can Destroy. I also have to think that like a big part of the appeal for Kirk

Hammet for the people in Metallica was his personality. You know, I've interviewed Kirk Hammett, and I mean, I think this is apparent to anyone who's ever seen an interview with him anywhere, that he's like a very laid back guy, and he seems like generally like pretty unassuming and like sweet natured and basically just like the opposite of of

Dave Mimsstain. Like I think, like Kirk Hammett also had his own substance abuse problems, but my guests with Hammett is that like when he got wasted, he was probably just like given lots of hugs and bro hugs and that sort of thing. He wasn't gonna be like, you know,

starting fights and and punching people in the mouth. So it seemed like, you know, musically, Kirk Hammett could deliver what Dave Mustain did, but also maybe even more crucially, he added balance to the band, like the power center was always going to be James and Lars, and I feel like Dave must would have threatened that, you know, even if he wasn't like a drunken jerk like, he would have asserted his own power in the band, whereas Kirk Hammont, I think just was more naturally deferential and

was going to like play his role as the lead guitarist in Metallica and not threaten anyone else's role. And you know, in later years, Mustan would say not very complimentary things about Kirk, and Kirk, to his credit, never rose to the baby would alway. He was always very civil with mistanding interviews and things like that, which I

think says a lot about his character. Also, you're right there, there's a sweetness to him there, which which I think that the band desperately needed between the the Lars James duo. Now I'm sure what was you know, even more aggravating to Dave must Know he's been fired from this band. He has to figure out a new path forward in his own career. But then you know Metallica, they put out killam A in three and there's like a significant number of songs that like mus Stain played a role

in writing. I mean it's like he's not in the band anymore, but like he is still like a ghost

figure really in Metallica. On that first record, right, he's credited on four songs, the Four Horsemen, which was on the now Lifetill Leather Uh demo under the title Mechanics, was Jumping the Fire, Phantom Lord, which Mustaining would later rework as Megadeth, This Was My Life on Countdown the Extinction and Metal Militia, And then there's also debate about how much input that Mustain had for Seek and Destroy

too Uh. And he's also credited on the band's second album, Ride the Lightning, including the title track and the instrumental Clothes or the Call of Kachulu. Yeah, and by the way, these are all great songs. Yeah, I mean these are not like, you know, just like whatever album thought types of things, especially the Call of Kachulu. That's like one of my favorite Meta Alica songs. And you can definitely hear the influence of Dave Mustain like on those tracks.

Like to me, like they are the most sort of like Megadeth like sounding songs in the Metallica discography. So must arrives back in California after this four day bust journey, and he's broke and he had to get a proper job. So he had a brief stint as a telemarketer and uh, which I mean, can you imagine getting like you know, Dave mus day in calling trying to sell you, like a credit card or like low interest loan or encyclopedias or something. Hello me, it's me again selling credit cards.

I mean, it's pretty amazing. I wish somebody recorded that. But his bitterness over this dismissal just festered, and he put together a new band specifically to compete with Metallica. You would say you wanted to outmetal Metallica. Uh. In later years he would say, I measured my success by whether or not I ate that day. My vision was to destroy Metallica and stop living in a van. And he spent much of recruiting the perfect members for his mission.

You know, he been burned by Metallica, So he approached Megadeth as basically like a metal auto crap. Like he would say, democracy doesn't work in a band. I have to have my own band to make music exactly the way I want to hear it with no compromises that anyone else's ego whatsoever. So he has this vision, but unfortunately his drive to out metal metallica was also matched by his addiction. He gets a recording deal with Combat Records, and he reportedly spent half of his really poultry studio

advance on alcohol and drugs rather than studio time. And this is a big reason why Megadeth nine five debut, Killing is my business and business is good wasn't as strong as it could have been. I mean, he would later say, simply put we ran out of money. But it's sort of a lack of production quality on the album. It's it's almost low five. There's sort of a weak sound there. Now when you listen to the next Megadeth record,

which is Peace Cells, but who's buying? I mean, I think you can hear like a significant upgrade in like songwriting and the production. I mean, that's where Megadeth, I think, is starting to sound like a real deal, like big time metal band, although things were still like very chaotic behind the scenes. The band's bass player Dave Ellison has this great quote where he says that p Cells was recorded on a diet of heroin burghers and cigarettes. Uh

still made made manassas to exactly. It's a very popular diet here on the Rivals podcast, I think, and you know,

I think that shows a contrast with Metallica. I mean, Metallica I think always had a lot of craziness going on behind the scenes, but they always strike me as like like from the beginning being a very professional career as band, Like they knew that they wanted to be huge and they would deliver on the biggest stages, and that's how they were able to build their career as the eighties progressed, whereas Megadet I think because of Dave Mustain, maybe not quite as reliable in that regard, and they

were a little bit I think more hamstrung by you know, some of the craziness that was going on. Of course, they were also hamstrung by again Dave Mists, just like

psychopathic hatred of Metallica. I mean, when it's your goal to destroy another band, you know, like that's not maybe the best goal to have, Like you're not really focusing on what you're doing, You're always thinking about somebody else, and you're just setting yourself up ultimately, Uh, for disappointment, especially when you are comparing yourself to what's going to become the most you know, commercially successful metal band ever and uh, you know, kind of going back to that

professionalism uh thing I was talking about earlier. You know, one thing I think that really hurt Megadeth is that Dave Mustain was not a great interview And I mean he was great in the sense that you'd have like wonderful quotes, but he wasn't very cooperative with reporters. He

could be very standoffish. He wasn't somebody that like I think people like to talk to, uh, which you know, like when you're building your career and you're trying to make connections, it is important to kiss the ring to a certain degree if you want people to help you out. And there was gonna be no ring kissing at all with Dave Mustain. And I'm sure one thing that drove him mad is that, like people wouldn't stop asking him about Metallica, and this was not something that he ever

really got over. Like not only did he not get over it, but it seemed like the trauma of being kicked out of that band was always very close to the surface, Like this this one time, like he was asked about Metallica, and this is a great quote. He says, it's like getting into a car crash. Every time you close your eyes, you relived the car crash, And every time someone brings up the name of that band, it's like we'reliving a car crash, but getting over it. I

have to do this on my own terms. I can't go up to someone who's been raped and say get over it. How insensitive is that? She's pretty insensitive, it says that. I would say it's as insensitive as lining getting kicked out of the band and being raped. That's a pretty insensitive thing too. But yeah, like this was clearly like just all consuming for him, even as Megaeth was starting to take off. I mean, I'm having a

hard time. I'm thinking of any other band that was ever formed for the express purpose of crushing another band?

Is this unique in rocket history? I think it may be. Well, I mean, yeah, I think it's unique because of the motivation and also because mss Stain was like very successful, Like, you know, it'd be like if Pete Best you know, had formed another band after being kicked out of the Beatles that like weren't as big as the Beatles, but like maybe we're as big as the Kinks or the who you know, Like that doesn't really happen very often, so that's unique. But then you know the fact that

ms Stain was so upfront about this. You know, I'm sure that there's been people who've been fired out of bands who felt motivated by like wanting to do better than the people that fired them, but they don't usually talk about it, you know, they them. Yeah, like mss Stain, I'm sure he was sick of being asked about Matauko all the time, but he also welcomed those questions by

the way he acted. You know, it's like, you know, if you're this crazy person who's obsessed with this one thing, people are going to ask you about that one thing every time they interview you. I mean, it's just the natural thing to talk about. And you know, his relationship even when he was getting Megadeth off the ground in the mid eighties, but Metallica, I mean there was a certain still emotional closeness there. Like when Cliff Burton died in the bus crash in six but Dame reportedly cried

for days. It was just absolutely shattered and laws would say that around the same time, he and Dave were still close, and he said really nice things about Peace Cells. He said that the album blew me away and became my favorite record for a long time, and that whenever Megadeth came through San Francisco, he and Lars would find each other and go drink and do a ton of drugs and sit around, and so you know, he would say that. Apparently Metallica even played Dave in advanced pressing

of Justice for All and invited into their shows. So it's strange to believe. I mean, maybe it was a case of like keep your friends close for your enemies closer. I don't know, or maybe it was still him desperately trying to maybe ingratiate his way back into the band. Who knows, but there was a case of in I think when Megadeth played the Monsters of Rock Festival, uh, Lars actually came out and helped him with an encore

did a cover of Anarchy in the k together. So yeah, there was a closest there, despite all of Mustain's rage at that period. We're gonna take a quick break to get a word from our sponsor before we get to more rivals. Yeah, I mean I think Lars would later say that, like he blamed the press essentially for playing this up and driving a wedge between the two bands. But the thing that he would leave out is that the press was running with quotes that Dave Mustain would

give them. You know. It's like like he I don't like question that he was actually close with Lars Ulric at this time, but it just seems like publicly he would go out of his way often to say bad things about Metallica, and that you know, the reverse wasn't true, Like Metallica really did not say anything bad about Megadeth of course, because they were the bigger band, they weren't

as threatened by Mega Death. It really does seem like it's misstained struggling to get over this, even as like by like the early nineties, Megaeth it was like a pretty big MTV band themselves, like that record count Down to Extinction, you know, spawned like several like like pretty famous videos. Uh. And they again, they weren't as big as Metallica, but they were still a pretty big band, and they actually ended up finally touring together a bit

intree when Metallica asked Megadeth to open for them. I mean, wasn't that the deal? I mean I'm sure like in Msstain's mind, they were like yeah, exactly, but they were definitely opening for Metallica, right, I mean still they were still Metallica. Yeah. When they finally played together, I mean, this was a huge moment for Dave. And he goes out onto the stage and he gives this this great speech. He said, it's a very historical day. Ten years of

bullshit is over between Megadeth and Metallica. Lots of cheers. There are lots of assholes who said this would never ever happen, but I guess we proved them all wrong. His big war is over speech. Who are those assholes? David? Like, I feel like I think Dave Mustain was like at the lead of those assholes saying they would never work.

There's another story like from this tour that I think just speaks to like, you know how awkward this could be, Like you know, even if they were friends, that there was still like tension that was always going to exist between the Stain and the Metallica guys. Like apparently there was a show like where Mustain showed up backstage and Metallica's dressing room and when he walked in, James Headfield like cut up some sugar like it was cocaine, and like kind of made a show of like doing it.

I think it was supposed to be a joke essentially, but like mus Stain had like recently overdosed. Yeah, I don't think like Headfield was like deliberately making fun of the overdose, unless I'm being too kind of Headfield there. I think it was just like a drug joke, but like mus Stain took it the wrong way in spite of that speech that he gave on stage, I mean that tour. I mean I think it was like hard on his ego. It was rough. I mean he even watch from the wings keeping a really close eye on

Kirk Hammond and he wasn't impressed. I mean he would say, you know, I think it was behind the music. He said, I thought, God, Kirk's horrible, and I also thought this is supposed to be me, which is just freaky. Years. Like I was saying earlier, Dave went out of his way to slag off Kirk. He has really never been anything other than civil to to Dave in the press, and that's probably the most famous quote Dave Game was in September two thousand and four. He said, I don't

really care about Kirk just a lie. He stole my job, but at least they got to bang his girlfriend before he took my job. How do I taste Kirk? Yeah, it's like, you know, I mean Kirkham. It doesn't have to say anything about Dave Mistain because he won. You know, when you're the person who's in the biggest middle band of all time, you know you can just let people take shots at you while you're like counting your like

tens of millions of dollars. But again, it goes back to what I was saying earlier, Like Lars Lark would always talk about how he felt that the press was trying to split Metallica and Megadeth and create drama where that wasn't really drama. Like there's this one quote where Lars Lark says, you know, there's almost like two relationships going here. There was Large and Dave hanging out kind of doing their thing on the side, which at times

was a little odd. You'd go, wait a minute, I'm supposed to not like this guy, because that's what's in this week's Kerrang, you know, but if you read that week's Kerrang, it would probably be Dave Mustain and saying something mean about Metallica, and that would continue on and on and on, even as you know they go through these periods where they're friendly again. I feel like it

really culminates with the movie Some kind of Monster. Like, to me, like the story of that movie is like such a great encapsulation of how like, even when you know Mustain could make a show of reconciling with the guys in Metallica, it would always end up turning in a negative direction, you know, in a very suprise to come about how he was wronged by Metallica, even though it was you know, this was supposed to be a move that reconciled the Metallica doing this documentary that came

out in two thousand four Some kind of Monster, which is basically a group therapy sessions that they struggle not to break up amid their whole litany of problems, their napster lawsuits, Jason Newston's the Parture, James Hetfield, substance abuse issues,

and just general low morale during the sessions. For it would become sane anger and to help them through this, the band hires what they call the performance enhancement coach, just basically a therapist, and one of the things that this person recommends is a really frank discussion with Dave Mustain, which ends up going down on September two thousand one, so just to heighten the emotional level even more, this was two days after nine eleven. Dave is more than

down to have this discussion with his ex bandmates. He even says, I've been waiting for this day for a long time, which is very ominous, and the footage in the film is incredibly emotionally charged, incredibly hard to watch. I mean, just it's I mean, Dave's telling laws that getting kicked out of Metallica ruined his life. He said, I had nothing, then I had everything, and then I had nothing again, which was fine, but then having someone stand on my head and keep me in the water,

that's what he felt like Metallica did. No matter how many platinum albums Mega Death would earn, he always lived in the shadow the more successful Metallica, and he'sa you know, no matter how many years ago, I think it was eighteen years earlier, at this point, it still feels like yesterday and a getting back to what he said earlier. For him, it was really about not being given a second chance. That was supposedly what the first thing he said when they told him he's out of the band.

He said, what, no warning, no second chance. There are ways to address what was going on with my problem. Who I am sober is totally different from who I

am drunk. We never gave it a try. From his point of view, they never really knew the real him, sober him in the band, and he was hurt that he wasn't able to really to do that, to have that opportunity, and this conversation is going on, well, James Hetfield is seeking treatment for alcoholism too, so I think that made it seem sort of doubly unfair that that they're dredging up these horrific moments from his past now that he is sober, well, James is treated with this

level of compassion. Okay, you can stay in the band, go get help. But I think that's really something that I think Mustange should feel justifiably upset about. You know, when I watched that scene, I feel like it's a pretty honest and fair depiction of how Dave Mustain feels about getting kicked out of Metallica and how I think I'll always feel about it. But when Mustain himself saw

the movie, he got really upset. And I think it's because he comes up as looking kind of pathetic in the movie, Like he looks like a guy who's still hung up on this thing that at that point, it happened about twenty years earlier. And again, I think it's an honest depiction, but I think maybe he was too honest for tape Mustain because he really felt like he had been set up. You know. He blamed the fact that the scene was filmed, you know, two days after

nine eleven. He said, like, I was more emotional than I would have otherwise been. He also said that, like, you know, I talked to Large for three hours, and they used five minutes of this conversation. I mean, of course they weren't going to use all three hours, dude, you know, like they're not gonna use the whole thing. But you know, he felt that the that the parts that they cut for the film weren't representative in his

mind of what the conversation was actually like. He said, you know, they didn't show the scene where I gave it to Lars for how he treated me, and Lars ran off to about him crying. You know, they always showed me crying, you know. I just think that he ultimately felt like weak, that he looked weak in this movie,

even if again, I think it's an honest depiction. I think again, like, as we've discussed in this episode, he's never been able to let go of being fired from Metallica, and it seems like what he says in the scenes that you see in the movie are you know, just sort of like this unfiltered expression of the hurt, uh and anger that he felt about that. I think they've just wanted to be seen as like yelling at Lars all work in the movie. I think White wanted to be seen as like more of a badass than he

actually is. Uh So he was very angry about how the movie turned out. He actually ended up writing a song too about that movie. And if you've heard this song, it's on the record The System Has Failed, which is not one of the best Mega Death records by the way, I'll just throw that out there. Came out in two thousand four. The song is called something that I'm Not and he doesn't like mention some kind of monster by name or Lars all work by name. But there are

references to one big charade fraud. My favorite reference little baby. Uh presumably Lars l Rick is the little baby in that situation. So again, this ends up being a thing where you watched the movie and you feel like, wow, it's amazing that these guys can get together and they can be honest emotionally with each other and be vulnerable.

But from Misdaine, it's just like another betrayal and that's how he perceives it, and instead of being able to put this behind him, it just exacerbates his feelings of

betrayal even more. I gotta say I would happily watch the director's cut with all three hours of their meeting, Like, for real, that's the table, and they should be like like like the Blue Ray extra should be like a three hour just unedited, you know, thing of Lars and Dave going at it, you know, I mean watching it, I I thought I didn't think he looked I mean, he didn't look like a badass, but I don't think

he looked weak either. That was a very articulate expression of what he had gone through and you know, just just of loss. You'd say, you know, all I had was you and James. He had dreams together, and I sold everything to join that dream and then it ended. So I don't really know what he expected, really, I mean, I guess other than like, you know, like Laura running out of the room crying. Maybe, yeah, I agree with you. I think that Mustain actually comes up really well in

the movie. But I guess I'm just speculating that that is his problem with it. I wonder if he felt that he came off as weak or vulnerable, or as like a cry baby or something, and that's why he was still against the movie, because otherwise I don't really understand his reaction at all. So he makes this big stink about the Metallica documentary and Lars gets his revenge.

In two thousand nine, the Metallica are inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and despite Dave's role as a founding member, Laras said that he wasn't going to be inducted because he never actually recorded an album with the band, and then that that was large justification, said, You've got to kind of cap it somewhere. Dave Mustain never played on any Metallica records. No disrespect to him, but there were half a dozen other people that were

in the lineup in the early days. We thought the fair thing to do would be to include everybody that played on a Metallica record. And then he had a pretty brutal part shot. Dave Mustain was in the band for eleven months, predominantly in two. I'm not trying to play it down. I have nothing but respect and admiration for his accomplishments since. But there's an implied but he's not really he's completely downplaying his influence in Metallica history

in a way that I think is unfair. You don't you, Yeah, yeah, I mean I was gonna say, I think he should have been inducted. Um. Yeah, he didn't play on the records, but like he co wrote some significant songs when he was in the band, and I think it's fair to say that Kirk Hammond was just imitating what Dave Mustain

did in the early days. You know, I think Kirk Hammon eventually, you know, in the later records he developed his own voice, but he was clearly brought in because he could replicate what Dave Mustain had done when he was in the band to put him on the same level as like Ron mcgubney or something. I think it's like just yeah, it's blatantly like like untrue, like it's mustain had a huge, i think influential role in shaping the sound of Metallica earlier, and it would have been

this incredible sort of you know, peacemaking moment between them all. Instead, Dave's just invited to attend the ceremony as a guest, which he turned down understandably. He said that he had commitments playing a European tour with with Judas Priest. Uh that's the official version. He would later say, you know what, do you think I'm nuts going to go just sit in the audience while you know, they're being inducted, and I'm just like, you know, cast out, Like that's masochism

what he'd say. So, I mean, understandably he didn't show up, and he's still you know, grumbling about it in the press, and this really makes James Hetfield say, you know what, this guy is ridiculous. This is guy He's gotta let it go. He gives an interview around the same time as the Hall of Fame induction. I mean, Dave's not in this band for a reason, he said, and this reason is super simple. He was in the band for eleven months, and he goes on and on and on

and on. I don't know any other band on the planet that there was a member in the band for a short amount of time and they've still got this big a chip on his shoulder. It's insane, you know what. He's in love and that's fine because we love him back. So James Hepfield characterizes as unrequited love on the stands part,

and I think he's right. I mean, I don't know how else you really can look at this other than you know, Misstain had a girlfriend in the early eighties that dumped him, and he hasn't gotten over the girlfriend, even though he married somebody else. You know, he's still stuck on Metallica and even here. You know, it's like he gets dissed over the rock and Roll Hall of Fame thing and he can't let it go. He can't

just like let Metallica do their thing. He has to find a way to get revenge, and he does it I think in a pretty effective way. You know, as petty as this is you have to tip your cap to him for the interview that he gives in two thousand nine to Rolling Stone, where he tells the magazine that there was a rumor in the mid eighties that Metallica was going to fire Lars, I guess after the Master of Puppets tour, and they didn't because Cliff Burton died and if Cliff Burton had lived, then Lars all

Record had been out of the band. And he actually got a supporting witness for this, scott Ian from Anthrax. He confirmed that this was a rumor, and then Kirk Hammett also said that, like, well, yeah, I think we were maybe mad at Lars at some point and maybe we said something to somebody it was a bigger deal than it actually was. But it's like he didn't deny that this was something that was you know, kind of

floating in the air in the mid eighties. So you know, again, it's a super petty thing to bring up, you know, like more than twenty years after the fact. But I think for misstain, you know, again, someone who's defined by you know, how he was fired from Metallica, for him to say that, like, well, Lars could have been also out of the band if not for you know, this terrible tragedy that happened. I mean there must have been something I guess like sickly satisfying about that for Dave mistake,

I'm sure. And also just the show cracks between the James Lars duo too, which is, you know, just to pit them against one another and and to to refresh all those those wounds twenty years later. It was. It was a pretty cunning Yeah, agent, a chaos agent, Dave Mustain. And again I go back to the James Headfield quote. He's right, David stains in the band for eleven months, and yet it's like you have your ex in your life forever, Like you can't get rid of your ex.

You know, you're crazy X that haunts you forever. Uh, you know they're going to keep, you know, causing havoc, you know, decades after the Is this around the same time that must writes his memoir to which I'm sure is just another opportunity from the event. Is Spleen about

about Metallica? Yeah, there was that thing about how he accused Metallica of ripping off this song that Megadeth recorded for the bill and Ted Bogus Journey soundtrack called Go to Hell, and there's a there's a passage in that song like where Mustain starts doing the Lord's Prayer and then you know, soon after that, Metallica of course they put on Inner Sandman, which has the now I lave me down to sleep passage in the middle of the song.

So yeah, he accused Metallica of ripping him off, although really they all just ripped off the Lord the Lord's Prayer. So so the Lord himself is the one who really has a case here for chaces pending, cases pending. So in spite of all of his sniping, James Heffield finds some stuff getting nostalgic around the time of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction. He's thinking about all the other bands that came up with Metallica and this leads in to the Big four shows. The guy it's

like the massive metal piece accords. You got Metallica, Anthrax, Slayer and Megadeth. It was the first time that Megadeth of Metallica shared a stage together since that British show where where where Dave gave that big speech on stage. Uh and Metallica for to their credit made a concerted effort to try to ease tension between all the bands before the show. They would organize big group dinners beforehand, like team building type of stuff, so that everybody could

hang out. Uh. And the vibe was apparently reportedly really good, and all the bands would hug and jam together and it was a really positive experience for everybody, UH, particularly Dave, who joined Metallica on stage for a group jam on Diamond Heads Helpless and Kirk Hammett gives Dave the solo,

which Dave was really touched by. For him, he said, it was kind of a symbolic passing of the torch back to me, and it was a nice gesture and it really helped relations improved between everybody, and then that

really was a big moment for him. The only dark cloud that appeared on all these Big Four shows that went on off and on for about eighteen months was right before their show at Yankee Stadium in September, two days before Megadeth pulled out of the concert because Damon Stain had to undergo surgery for a neck and spine condition that he said was due to years of headbanging, which I don't know. May Or may not be true. And apparently he heard that Metallica's co manager called him

a quote pussy for not playing the gig. So a day before he's about to go into surgery, but potentially you know, life saving surgery. According to him, Uh, he changed his mind. He flies back to uh New York, does the gigg. He's wheeled on the stage and like a golf cart or something, and he plays his gig. I think I'm like a neck brace or something to

to sort of like prove it to them. Tallica camp that he's got he's got the metal to do this, like you know, he said he had signs all over the stage and said do not headbang because apparently if he did, he was like close to getting paralyzed if he did. He also we talked to the press. You would say that both James Hetfield and Tom Area from Slayer had similar surgeries, and the implication being, yet again, my medical issues aren't treated with the same degree of

compassion and cares there's with alcoholism. If its neck problems, some everybody else, they get a path. But with me, I'm called a pussy or kicked out of the band or something. And I thought that was that was very interesting. But for him, the best moment of all these reunion shows was the Metallica thirtieth anniversary concert in December twenty eleven. They played it in San Francisco at the Film War Auditorium and Metallica invited a lot of their former members back.

One of them was Ron McGovney, and they also got miss stand back and Kirk once again let him take some solos. And for this was really all that mistake ever wanted. He was back for this one night only. He was back in Metallica. He was playing lead. This was all we'd ever wanted. This was a peak moment for him, and of course, as peak moments go with Dave Mustain, it was downhill after this. Yeah, I just I think you really have to again do a shout out to Kirk Hammett, Like, how cool is Kirk Hammett

that like he let Dave Mustain do this again. This guy who is like Mustain is dissed Hammett for years. You know, Hammont could very easily like play the diva card and not allow Mustain even on the same stage with him, much less to take over the solos. But again, I think it speaks to have magnanimous. Hammett was, although I think, you know, bringing misstain back in the band. It just again it seems like the guy who is

obsessed with the girlfriend. The girlfriend maybe offers to like go out to dinner with the guy, and then the guy thinks that they're gonna get back together because it's like, oh, finally I have a chance to get back into the fold. Because after these concerts, Mustain starts talking about a Metallica Megadeth super like he floats this idea into the media, which is never gonna happen. Well, why would Metallica do this. Metallica very strong brand, they could tour on their own.

They don't need Dave Mustain. Mustain probably needs Metallica more than than vice versa. And he starts talking about this in the press. Mustain does like it's gonna happen, and of course it's up to the guys of Metallica to

pump the brakes on this. And and James Hetfield as I think a pretty great quotehere he says, this is the day that we kind of wanted to forget about, you know, the big mouth that just wants to go, go go, and again, like you know, he says that, but then he couches it in like you know, affection for misstain. Ultimately, he says, you know, there's an authenticity about him when he speaks. He doesn't think too much

before he does. He just goes off the cuff. And he said, that's kind of endearing, but also it creates problems for us because he says these things and then we have to answer for them. And then Dave's answer, I think again, it just speaks to the passive aggress that is inherent in this relationship. He says, I guess my whole thing was that I wanted them to know that I loved them and that I missed them and

I enjoyed playing with them. If that's not mutual, then I understand I still respect him and I still care about the guy. If he doesn't want to play with me anymore, that's cool. Of course, it's not cool. We all know it's not cool with him, and the whole thing of like, well, I just wanted them to know that I love them. But if they don't love me back, you know, poor me, you know, going right back to the self pity thing, you know, it just shows, like I guess, like the vicious cycle that was in play

with these bands at this time. But even with this vicious cycle, you know, and like all of the negative mojo that's come mainly from Dave Mustain, you still get the sense that there is like a friendship here. Like as maddening as Mustain is, I think in a lot of ways, it seems like there is like the affection that you would have for anyone that you've like lived very intense periods of your life with, like if you were in a war or something, like you're always going

to be friends with your war buddies, you know. And I think there's like a similar thing with Metallic and Mega Death, where you know, as mad ning as Mustain is going to be, it's like James and Lars, They're always going to have a place in their heart, absolutely, And you see that with with Mustain's recent cancer diagnosis, I mean, which is really brutal him. He's been given

it everything he's got. I think he's had like fifty one radiation treatments and nine chemo treatments or something, and he was touched when James Headfield reached out, he said, I got a text from my old brother James Hetfield and I was so so happy to hear from him. Contrary to what anybody says, and contrary to any of the act that we put on. I love James and I know that James loves me and cares about me. You can see that when the moment of truth is here and I'm telling the world that I've got a

life threatening disease, who comes to stand next to me? James? And I think it seems like Dave Mustain is doing better now, like with his with his cancer treatment, So that's great news. I really look forward to the day when all these guys are in wheelchairs and they're still saying terrible things about each other's guitar solos. You know, that's something I hope really comes into play in the future. All right, hand, we'll be right back with more rivals.

We've now reached the part of the episode where we give the pro side of each part of the rivalry. Let's talk about Metallica first. I mean, look, they're the most popular metal band of all time. While Dave Mustain was a crucial member early on, there's no question that Mattall because most popular music was made without him. Uh, they ultimately didn't need Dave Mustain, and they were probably

happier for having kicked into the curb. You know, as as traumatic as that was, probably in the moment, it just seems like for being able to live inside of this band, it was just gonna go a lot smoother getting rid of Dave Mustain and bringing in you know, Mellow, Happy Go Lucky, Kirk Hammet And you know, Metallica is still a band today. They're still playing huge shows, putting out you know, very successful records, and um, I'm sure

that's why. I mean, I think if Mustain had stayed in the band, they probably would have imploded back in the nineteen eighties. Yeah, I mean, like you said earlier, the ultimate argument ender is essentially their Metallica and the biggest selling metal band of all time, when the most influential bands period in history. They set the template for what a heavy metal band is supposed to look like

and sound like. I think, you know what I mean, And I think that although they didn't always keep a consistent sound, I think their highs are you know, without question, higher than than uh than Megadeth and the Black Album Ride, The Lightning, Master of Puppets, Justice for All, It's the foundation of modern metal. And you know, plus this is crucial. They don't have Dave Mustains singing hell old me. I like Dave Mustain's voice. I think it's pretty cool voice.

But yeah, yeah, they definitely not only survived without Mistain, but they thrived without the amustained. But going to the pro Megadas side, you know, I don't think you can really underestimate how difficult it was for Mustain to form a new band and really become like not as successful in Metallica, but like more successful than like metal bands ever.

I mean I brought up this analogy earlier, but like, imagine if Pete Best after he was fired from the Beatles had like formed the Kinks or the who you know, or another like prominent British rock band, not as big as the Beatles, but still very successful. I mean, that's

essentially what Dave Mustain did with Megadeth. And yes he's very petty, and yes he hasn't been able to get over getting kicked out out of Metallica, but like, maybe pettiness is good for your career sometimes his goal well yeah, exactly, if if your goal was to get revenge on Metallica and this sort of all consuming hatred is what is driving you in your career. I mean, it propelled Megadeth to like millions in record sales and into playing big concerts.

You know, maybe it also caused Mustain to get sick later in his life, because you can't carry around that much bile, I think, and have a healthy life ultimately. But yeah, I think what Mustain was able to do. You know, he was put in a pretty big hole when he was fired, and he dug his way out of it. And here we are, you know, almost forty years after he was fired, and Mustain and Megadeth are

still going strong and you know, more power to them. Yeah, you know, I mean a lot of the pro Megadeth arguments always seem to have this like air of country rarian is um. And my heart goes out to Dave Mustain just because, you know, as he said, I think he said it in some kind of monster. People hate him purely be virtue the fact that he's not in Metallica, you know, I mean, he's beating himself up about this truth over the years. He doesn't need legions of other

metal heads gang up on him too. And you know, all the Metallica obviously had much higher highs. I think Megadeth had a really great consistent career, especially in the nineties, when you know, you could argue that Megadeth in the nineties with Rust in Peace, Countdown, New Extinction in euthan Asia gave Metallica's run nineties run and run for their money. I think that they're way more productive than Metallica in

recent years. And for all of Dave's shortcomings as a vocalist, I think that his songs tend to have more complexity to him, more complex riffs and uh, you know, let's not forget he co wrote some of Metallica's best early songs too, and um and also this is crucial he didn't team up with lou Reid for Lulu Oh. I don't like that Lulu shape. I had to come up at some point. That's what a Metallica's greatest achievements. And

I'm gonna go to my grave arguing that. Now looking at Metallica and Megadet together, I mean, look, this feud is like one of the best in metal history, and us hosting a feuds podcast, we love that sort of thing, so we're glad that exists. And really, I mean we all came out ahead. I think it was inevitable that, you know, even if the Stained were like an angel and didn't have a drinking problem and wasn't belligerent, he eventually would have left Metallica because he had his own

strong artistic vision. And instead of having one world class metal band, we now have two world class metal bands. So I feel like as headbangers out there, we all came out ahead because these guys only this is one of the greatest examples of you can enjoy both in rock. You get too awesome thrash metal bands for the price

of wine, and that's something that should be celebrated. Now, Ice Field, Jordan's that you know now that we're at the end of another episode that when it comes to uh talking about rivalries, nothing else matters in my life, or should I say nothing matters? Excellent pun We fade to black. Yes, So thank you for listening to this episode of Rivals. We'll be back with more beefs and feuds and long simming resentments next week. Rivals is a

production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. Supervising producers are Taylor chicogn and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stat. I'm Jordan's Runt Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcast for My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows