Joy Divisions: Bernard Sumner vs. Peter Hook

through their prior band Joy Division. Yeah. You know, we talk a lot about like rivalries within bands in this show, but in this episode we're not talking about just one, but two crucial post punk bands. It would be like if John Lennon and Paul McCartney left the Beatles together and then they formed an even more successful band after that, which I guess makes Stephen Morris like the ringo in

this scenario, I guess. But after working so closely together for the better part of thirty years, these guys came to hate each other with a passion and dead is extreme. I mean, even for this show. I mean, like, in the history of Rivals, I think it's possible that no beef has been quite as intense as this one. Would you say, yeah, this is white hot? Yeah? Oh yeah, absolutely, this is a blood feude. He's taken this one of the grave, Peter Hook is, so without further ado, let's

get into this mess. That's with some of the best of these feuds. It starts in childhood. Peter Hook and Bernard some of their first cross paths as grammar school students in Salford, England, and they were drawn together, not really by music, but by their love of scooters, which I didn't realize, but it actually played a role in

their first falling out. According to Peter Hook's hilarious and vindictive memoir Unknown Pleasures, and I would like to say writer Peter has written probably fifteen hundred pages over the course of three books, just slagging off Bernard Sumner for most of this, and uh, it's it's pretty amazing. Highly recommend all three of his books. But between hundred words words is still not enough. You know, He's given us so much and I'm still hung me for more. Oh

it's so good. But in Unknown Pleasures, the first of his three memoirs, he talks about how he and Bernie were on a scooter trip in southern France and one of their friends their scooter broke down and so they needed to pull some money to get the guy scooter fix to get back home, and Hookie writes, let's just say when it came to helping out, Barney wasn't very helpful. After that, I couldn't really look at him the same

way from then on. They were ruined after that. You know, it's hilarious to me this like scooter incident is like the inciting incident in their whole relationship. And I love that when the book he refers to him as Barney because I guess he just hates the nickname Barney, so all through the book he only refers to him as Barney. That that's the level of petty we're dealing with for

the rest of this episode, So you know, like buckle up. Yeah, I'm just gonna say that, like from the outset that I have a strong bias in favor of Peter Hook. I think he's hilarious. I love seeing interviews with him, and I have to say that too, as a musician, his bass playing is to me like the distinctive sound of certainly New Order and maybe even Joy Division, guess, along with Ian Curtis's voice. Of course. I mean, whenever

I think about people ripping off new order. I just think of that, you know, very trebly melodic basse that Peter Hook brings to the table. So yeah, I'm gonna be stumping for him, even though I think, as we'll see as this episode unfold, he could also be a

major pain in the butt, right. I mean, he kind of has David Crosby syndrome where he's he's hilarious and so charismatic and in interviews he's just a quote machine and he's so self deprecating that it almost like it sort of masks the fact that he's kind of a dick and has been throughout this story. But you love

him anyway, absolutely. So. The real big bang of Joy Division is on June four six, when both Uh, Bernie and Hookey attend the Sex Pistols Legendary gig at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall, which is sort of, like been mythologizes, like the big bang of the Manchester Music Seed. It inspired so many teens and tweens to start bands, and Hook and some of there were among them, I guess. The next day, Peter Hook borrowed money from his mom

to buy a bass and and they were off. He and Bernie got together as a duo and placed an ad in a local music paper, which got in Curtis into the mix. And then uh, drummer Stephen Morris came later. But I love. Have you heard the story of their first drummer. No, I don't think I have. Oh it's

so good. He was this like London punk guy. I think his name was Steve brother Dale, and he was in a band called Panic, and he was like proper hard London punk, like scary dude, and it wasn't really jailing, it wasn't really working, but they were too afraid to fire him. So they were driving their like band van home and they pulled over and said, oh, man, Steve, can you get out. I think we got a flat tire?

Can you go check it out? So he gets out of the van and looks a tire and they just speed off in the even there, And I guess that was how they fired this guy, because they were too afraid to do it any other way. So they eventually got Steven Morris, who is significantly less intimidating I would imagine, into the band, and um, they consider several band names.

My favorite was Stiff Kittens, but they eventually went with Warsaw after the David Bowie song on Low or Sawa and Um, and they were playing together, know that, and for a while, I think a couple of months when they learned that there was a London man called the Warsaw Pack. So it was like you know the spinal tap Originals New Originals thing. They had to get a new name, and so to avoid confusion with this other band, Warsaw Pact, they chose the name Joy Division, which is

not a very uplifting name. It is the name for the sexual slavery wing of the Nazi concentration camp, so not a very uplifting It's not a uplifting name if you know the origin story. But I have to say that I think it's like one of the best band names in rock history, especially because of the irony when you know what they sound like. It's like there's not much joy in Joy Division, but it's but like people

have talked about this, like the Great Music. British music journalist Paul Morley has said that like when you heard the name Joy Division, it just seemed like a band that you had already loved for ten years. You know, there was just something instantly iconic about that, and I think it rolls into the first Joy Division record, which of course is Unknown Pleasures out in nine, a brilliant record, I think, one of the best debut albums ever made.

I think if you listen to any post punk band that has come out in the past forty years, they are in some way ripping off that record. I mean, it's just been incredibly influential. Although in a way, I feel like the album cover at this point is more famous than the album itself, Like, especially as a T shirt,

you see it everywhere and oh yeah. I think the album cover, along with the band name, it just added to this sense of people hearing this band, seeing this band, and feeling like, wow, they're already this kind of fully formed entity that has like a perfect sound and a complete aesthetic, like right out of the gate um. The thing about that first record is that they made it

pretty quickly. I think it was over the course of three weekends that they were able to you know, bash those tracks out, and you know, in subsequent years, Peter Hook would always complain about how long it would take New Order to make albums. I think like by the time they get to like Waiting for the Sirens Call that record took like three years to make, you know, versus three weekends for Unknown Pleasures. And I think because they work so quickly, Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, they

didn't really have time to beef at that time. You know, they were young, they were hungry, they were learning how to make records. It really wasn't until closer the second Joint Division record, and of course the last which came out in shortly after Ian Curtis's death, that you started to see some conflicts and it really becomes, I think, the core conflicts that are going to haunt these guys for the rest of their partnership. It really kind of

comes down to two things. Like one is musical differences that I think, especially as we get a new order, Bernard Sumner is going to be pulling them away from being a straightforward rock band, whereas Peter Hook is going to want to stay in that camp. So that's a problem. The second problem, which I think we've already seen, is that these guys have different personalities. Bernard Sumner seems like

a pretty quiet, introspective, I think, relatively nice guy. I mean, it seems like he's pretty polite and would be nice to know, whereas Peter Hook is this loudmouth, brash, hilarious but maybe difficult person to deal with, and it just seems like that was already coming into play. Like I mean, have you heard that story about like how they were two essentially opposing camps in this band like Enjoy Division,

Like while they were making Closer. Yeah, their manager invented him to apartments and Hook was in one and he headed up sort of a loud bastard brigade, and Bernie was in the other with Ian Sumner and sort of the more quiet the cultural flat they sort of like called themselves. So of course Hooks team loved to just tool on the cultural flat, you know, did their hearts content.

I mean, there were all these stories about like you know, Hook taking like and Curtis's girlfriends like panties and stuff and like you know, like stringing them up like things like that, like real like summer camps, dount. Yeah, and

these guys were young at the time. I mean I think they were only what like exactly, so they were like the age of college kids, and like Peter Hook was acting like a college kid, but Bernard Sumner was already you know, not into that sort of thing, and and Ian Curtis was also in that camp, and it feels like, you know, for Bernard Sumner maybe already at this point he was thinking that, you know, like I'm the serious guy, Like I'm the one who maybe has

like a better idea of like the big picture creative direction that we're going to go in. And Peter Hook, you know, yeah, he's a good bass player, but he's sort of a buffoon, you know, So I've got to deal with this guy, you know, and and try to

have patience with him. Whereas I think Peter Hook from his perspective, he's looking at Bernard Sumner as what, like I guess being like kill joy in a way, or like not being a person who's going to embrace being in a successful rock band and is going to kind of pull them away from the rock and roll path towards you know, maybe more of like a sterile sound at least in his mind. Yeah, it was got the idea that that Hook always looked at Bernie and thinking

like why are you here? Like why are you why do you want to be in a rock band? Like what is this? Like? You know, And this comes up again and again on like later years, when Bernard doesn't want to tour and things like that, Hooks just kind of like, well, what what did you get in this for? What did you think this was all about? Like getting out and play? I know I often wondered what what Bernie's relationship with An was like, because I mean you

read about it in books and stuff. But of course after N's death, he was just sort of you know, sanctified and uh. Yeah. I often wondered if if Bernie sort of the weird power dynamic that to have the Hook, if he felt that in any way within two before

he died. Yeah. I mean again, like you said, it's so hard to analyze that stuff because one joy division wasn't together very long and to like, Ian Curtis has been this saintly figure for so long, I mean much longer than he was alive, and it's hard to talk

about him as being a human being. I mean, It's one thing that's interesting with Ian Curtis in the you know, the Sumner Hook dynamic, is that I know, all this Hook has talked about how he felt like Ian Curtis kept uh, sort of a rap on any tensions might have existed between them. That like when Ian Curtis was

around like he was the in question leader. It seems like, Yeah, and then when when Ian died, In died on May eighteenth night, on the eve of the band's first US tour, and he died by suicide attributed to depression and worsening epilepsy and just collapsing marriage. And yeah, like you said, there's been a lot of speculation on whether or not the group would have been slightly less tumultuous than New Order.

You know, if if if Ian had lived, he would have sort of been able, there wouldn't have been that power vacuum that that hook and Bernie sort of rushed in to try to fill over the next you know, decade,

twenty years. Yeah, what's striking to me is that, you know, Ian Curtisy dies right before they put out Closer, and I guess they had played some of those Closer songs before the album came out, Like if you listen to that Postumus record still where there's like a bunch of live performances on there, they're playing songs like Atrocity, Exhibition and Isolation and and other songs that were on Closer, but they never toured behind it, and it just seems like,

you know, Ian just died. They were going to do

an American tour. Obviously that wasn't gonna happen now, and it's like they just had to close the door I'm closer and become this new band, and I just wonder, you know, it seems like it's some ways maybe Ian Curtis exhibited some control over those guys even after he died, because they had to focus on just carrying on and and in a way sort of burying their grief, and that was such an elephant in the room for so long that maybe they didn't have time to really go

after each other in the early years of New Order until they became successful. Then of course it all starts to go to hell. Yeah, it's crazy to think. I mean, I feel like every psychologist now would say this is what you don't do. But as they started writing New Orders songs like you know a week after Ian Curtis's death inquest things like that. I think Peter Hooks said in this book that he wrote the baseline of dreams

never end like you know barely like days after the funeral. Uh, and the band's first single, Ceremony was one of the last joy Division songs was composed by Ian Curtis. He wrote the lyrics, and uh yeah, I I felt that they they really had an awkward relationship with their legacy. I think Hook was more apt to be the one to want to play Joy Division songs in early New Order, whereas Bernie he kind of took the Paul McCartney and Wings approach and said, you know what, no, I'm doing

this now that we're gonna start completely fresh. And I think there was some tension between them for that off the bat too, so it really started them off on

the wrong foot, just regardless of all their past relationship issues. Yeah, it's interesting when you hear like early New Order songs because it really does sound like Joy Division, or maybe a more danceable version of Joy Division, like you can easily imagine Ian Curtis singing on a lot of the songs on the first New Order album, Movement, which came out in one But I think pretty soon after that, as they start to evolve, you can hear the differences

between those groups. It seems like it becomes pretty pronounced fairly quickly. Yeah, and like you said, the sonic differences in addition to all the personality class was a really driving Hook and some of there apart. Uh and Hook writes in his book, you know, this was around the time when we started having to spend all this time programming sequencers and sympthson stuff, and it was boring. He said, why can't we just fucking play. We're a band, We've

written hundreds of fantastic songs. Can't we just play? The other guys were busy reinventing pop. Me I liked pop just find the way it was. I think that sums it up. And they have these musical differences going on,

and of course there's also the personality clashes happening. And I wonder like if it ultimately came down to Peter Hook wanting to be a rock star and Bernie not really feeling that or feeling some ambivalence about that, because it seems like, you know, New Order not touring becomes a recurring problem that becomes more pronounced as the band progresses that like Peter Hook wants to be this guy on the road, he wants to be partying in hotel rooms,

he wants to be doing below with groupies, living the whole life, and Sumner really doesn't. And you know, he writes in his book Chapter and Verse, which is a fair to say that he only wrote that because Peter Hook wrote like words other musical legacy. He felt like he had to respond, I did the fit in himself. And then Hook went and so I think you went in Billboard and basically did like a point by point rebuttal of Bernie's book after that too, It's like Peter Hook,

so yeah, it was basically a big defense book. Peter Hook couldn't even let Sumner have his book. It's like, no, I've already written, I've written words, but I've ben to write even more words and Billboard to further refute like

what Sumner is saying. But like one of the things he writes about Sumner in his book Chapter in Versus, just this idea that like he felt that there was a delineation between his public and private life and that he wanted to have a private life away from the band and you know, just kind of live a quiet,

you know, sort of family existence, I think. And then yeah, Peter Hook, who was just I think feeling increasingly frustrated that he can't just be on the road all the time and and and being this like, you know, conquering

rock band. Yeah, I think he thought he's being like told what to do by the weakest will member of the group, and he I think in his own book he even talks about how Bernie got the lead vocal part because initially, when they first were recording the first couple of New Orders songs, I guess Stephen Hook and Bernie all recorded just the vocal lines together and it was just gonna be a blend the ball three singing.

And then Bernie said, wait, wait, wait, I want to I want to try it again, so they wiped all the tracks and then they ended up just leaving his voice on there. So he basically by just default got the lead singer part. And then later on is this we'll see this again and again he's just sort of like he took on the perspective of like, well, I'm the lead singer. You can't really get rid of me.

Everybody else's is dispensable. And this would come up when they would do their their side projects later on, who kind of felt like, well, no, we're a band, we're not. But you know, lead singer syndrome. It's a classic classic problem. I mean, there is this weird thing with Peter Hook, where like you said, he describes Sumner as being the weakest wild member of the band, and yet in the same breath he'll talk about him being this prima donna

who is insisting on everything going his way. In one of his books, I think it's the New Order book Substance, he talks about how like at some point in the mid eighties, Sumner would never show up to anything on time. That became his big power move to show that he was the one in charge. So there is this weird thing where Hook is complaining that like something as taking all the control, but then also feeling like, well, he's

also not the best leader. You know, there's sort of like a willful uh sort of giving up a responsibility in a way by Peter Hook, I feel like in these situations, yeah, I mean, speaking of lack of leadership, I just want to point out that New Order is probably famously one of the like, you know, most ripped off bands financially of all time. Like they're just a gigantic money pit. I mean. The most famous example involves their their song Blue Monday, which had this elaborate UH

cover for the twelve inch sleeve. I think by Peter Saville and somehow the finances of it worked out that for every copy sold, the band lost five pence and it became the best selling twelve inch single ever. So the band lost all this money on their biggest hit just and then of course they also go into the Hacienda, the Hacienda club in Manchester, which was just a gigantic money pit. I think at one point was losing ten thou hounds a week and so all they're touring revenue

just went to paying off that debt. So in addition to you know, personality clashes musical differences, they also have this massive financial train going on too at this time. Yeah, just snatching defeat from the jaws of victory over and over again. I feel like with with with New Order, Yeah, it's insane to me, like the Hacienda, that they would essentially be making records in order to fund a nightclub

and I guess also their record label. But you know, we're going to see this as this episode unfolds, like now Order is like becoming this big band and yet they can't fully enjoy the spoils of their success because they're paying for a nightclub, which again just seems insane to me, like, like what a terrible investment, Like why would you just cut your losses at some point? I mean, that would be the smart business thing to do. But clearly, you know, and we could talk about the Hacienda an

entirely different episode. I mean, if you haven't seen twenty four Hour Party People, which if I don't know what you're doing, listen to this episode. If you haven't seen that movie, I mean, come on, you pause and put that exactly. They talk about that nightclub, uh in that film, I think being like an idea as much as a business, Like there was just something sort of utopian maybe about what that club represented. And also Factory Records as well, and like New Order was a big part of that.

But yeah, it's just insane that they were doing that.

And you know, New Order they're progressing as they get into the mid eighties and they're and they're turning out just like a series of just like perfect pop singles and and they're really going to start hitting I think their peak around the time that they released Brotherhood in six and like this is like one of the most fascinating New Order albums to me, because this thing that we're talking about the rock side that they have that derives from joy division in this dance music side that

is becoming a bigger part of what they're doing. That it seems like Sumner was the one really driving that. And quite frankly, you know, as much as I am a Peter Hook partisan, you got to give Sumner his props for recognizing that this was the sound of the eight reason that they were going to be a more important band if they could find a way to integrate these sounds, right, I mean, isn't that like as much as I love Peter Hook, in a way, you have to say that Sumner was right in his instincts to

be pushing new order in this direction. Yeah, and then they were successful at it too, I mean, not only thinking about it just being progressive from a musical standpoint. But it worked. I mean, Blue Monday was the biggest twelve inch selling of all time. I mean, this was something that was in their best in a rare candy

financial move to actually pursue the sound as well. But yeah, I think Hook just viewed it is veering too far from the roots, you know, at that Sex Pistols gig, and he also he felt that, you know, he was primarily the main acoustic player in the band, and that Bernie was quite literally limiting him, turning him down. I guess during the recording a Brotherhood he talked about how like he said that Bernie and the engineer had some kind of device put on his base that they could

kind of turn down, and he felt, you know, muzzle. Basically, I love that stage in the band's career when they start arguing about like the levels of each band member in the studio, like turn the vocals down, turn your base down, you know, turn this up. And that's always a great sign, you know, those ego battles over, you know,

being manifested in in the mix of a record. But like with Brotherhood, the clash between Hook and Sumner just seems more stark than it ever would be because on side one you essentially have a rock record, and on side too you have the dance record, so it's just split pretty evenly between those two sides. And of course the big hit from that record ends up being on the dance side, which is Bizarre Love Triangle that becomes

a huge defining hit for New Order. And then there's also the single True Faith, which comes out of this period it ends up being released on the album Uh Substance, the singles compilation that ends up really breaking them in America. And I have to say that True Faith to me, like if I were to make a list of perfect pop songs, True Faith would be on the list. Like, I just think it's an incredible song. I mean, don't you. Oh yeah? And I think, actually I hope could at

least later take credit for it. I don't know how much that's true, but yeah, I mean it's funny that one of the best dance songs they made I think came from him primarily well, because he would also talk about how didn't he say something about how he felt like it was a like a Pet Shop Boys rip off and like not a very good one. Yeah. Yeah. He hated Neil Tennant. He hated the Pet Shop Boys.

He would whenever he wanted to like come up with a reference for like, you know, disposable electro late eighties pop, he would always name drop the name check the Pet Shop Boys, which I think is also an interesting comparison because at this time they're also working with Stephen Hague, who was the producer of the early Pet Shop Boys hits like West End Girls, and I think that's why

New Order ended up working with him. So I'm sure that was like also part of his resentment with with True Faith that they were working with the same producer

as the Pet Shop Boys. But again, it's a perfect pop song, and you know, I always laugh, Like one of my favorite videos of of New Order is them playing on top of the Pops in seven Uh, and they're performing True Faith and Peter Hook is wearing a leather jacket and he's playing his bass like around his ankles, like he looks like a member of Japan Droids, you know, not a member of this like synth pop group. And

I don't know. To me, it just signifies the tension in the band because even when they're playing this song that I think for a lot of people is one of the defining examples of like great eighties synth pop, it's like Peter Hook still had to look like he was playing in a punk band, didn't you under stay one of his books, like one of his shoulders or one of his arms like significantly longer than the other from like years of playing bass that low, Like that's

tough to do, Yeah, I would imagine. I mean, it's very low and again it reminds me of like like a Sid Vicious or like a Duff mccagan type you know, bass stance or uh, you know, like add Ramon type thing. But yeah, he had to wave that flag even when musically they were clearly moving away from those roots. All right, hand, we'll be right back with more rivals. Substance takes off in the US. They go on their first real big American tour and uh, and and Bernie seems to hate

every minute of it. I mean, this is really when he starts pulling I mean the diva card in Peter's book. Uh. He says, you know, he would ask for these lengthy sound checks and then not show up till the very end, and he would say, you know, it was fine because every given situation was improved by Barney's absence, so we weren't bothered one bit. Everybody had had bad memories of sound checks where Twatto his pet name for Bernie, would turn up and ruin it by sulking, stamping about, moaning,

and putting everyone on edge. So my favorite story from this tour also is I guess some there demanded hot food backstage at all times, and they use some kind of Sterno or something that I guess made everybody sick, and everybody had horrible stomach paints from this hot food that Bernie demanded. And then Bernie sort of getting really sick, and Hook thought, well, he's just being a eva. He's just you know, let him, He's just he just wants attention.

And he ended up going to the hospital for an ulcer. I guess he hated touring that much then end up giving himself an ulcer, and they canceled I think one of the first and only tour dates they ever canceled in Detroit, and Hook, in his book writes that he thinks that this was a real turning point for Summer because he realized the band can't do this without me, you know, like like they cannot go on stage without me.

He really thinks that that's the moment that gave Bernie like a big hit because he realized that, you know, the show couldn't go on without Yeah, you know. It's it's amazing with Sumner because you look at him and he's like not a conventionally good singer, and I think even comparing him to Ian Curtis, who wasn't a great singer, but he had a great sounding voice, and he had

a wonderful presence about him. It was very distinctive, and he could make his voice work perfectly in the framework of Joy Division, where it just evoked the mood so perfectly.

And Sumners somehow was able to do the same thing in New Order, where there's something about the flatness of his voice that just perfectly convey something like quintessentially eighties to me, I mean, I think of that movie, you know, American Psycho, where, uh, there's the same thing in that idea of this flatness of delivery and the way that people talk and how that is masking a darkness that is running in the undercurrent of of the culture at

the time. And maybe I'm thinking of that example because like True Faith is in that movie, there's a scene like where Patrick Bateman is dancing to that song. It's just so perfect for like what New Order was doing at that time, that they could make these great pop songs that always had a subversive edge to them. Uh, there's always, like I think, a deeper darkness in there. I had to say too that, like, I think some of that also comes from the sound of Peter Hook's

bass sound again. You know, I mentioned that at the top, that very trebly, melodic basse that he brought to the records, even as they became more of a pop, you know, dance band essentially. You know, he would still kind of force his way unto those tracks. And it's like, when I hear that bass sound cut through the mix, it's like, oh, this is New Order, Like I know it's New Order now. I mean you're a bass player. I mean where do you feel like Peter Hook ranks in the animals of

great bass players? Oh? Yeah, I mean I feel like he pioneered, like the lead base part. I I I think his bass part gives those tracks humanity because I I tend to like Joy Division more than New Order for the reason you just mentioned. There's something very clinical and even though even though it's dancy, there's there is a darkness to it that does set me on edge. And his baselines kind of like the human element that

pokes through. Not only I mean they just incredibly crafted and melodic baselines that you know, it sounds like Paul McCartney at his best doing those like elaborate uh Sergeant Pepper runs and revolver runs on his Rickenbacker. Um, But yeah, I feel like that's what keeps it tethered in the human range and away from the computers. And yeah, I think that's the part of Joy Division that they were able to most successfully bring over a New Order, and I,

you know, I appreciate that the most. It seems like the power struggle between Hook and Sumner, which in a lot of ways, at least musically, seems to be about

Hook insisting that his base beyond their records. Like that seems to be like the story of New Order albums as they progress in the eighties, like Peter Hook wanting to find a space for himself and these again increasingly sequenced and dance oriented records kind of reaches its peak, I think with the album Technique, which I'd love to read like more about the making of this record, because apparently, like New Order, they decamped to Abisa. I don't know

why you would want to work in Abisa. It seems like not a great work environment because you're in this beautiful setting. You have, like you know, sexy, glamorous people all around you. I'm sure there's like lots of great drugs flowing through the island. You just want to go to dance clubs, and I think that's what Peter Hook wanted to do. He just wanted to party on this island.

But it does seem like it did have some sort of artists they pay off for the band, because at least Bernard Sumner like he was going to dance clubs and he was soaking up like the acid house music that was happening on the island at that time, and it seems like that was a big influence on that

album technique. But again you have this thing where Peter Hook is i think still kind of validly holding on to this old idea of like them playing as a band and and Sumner and it's it seems like the other members of New Order, Stephen Morris and Jillian Gilbert,

they kind of went more along with Sumner. Ultimately. Yeah, I mean, to your point, it's in their best interest that Peter's baselines were on there, because I think if they had just gone with sequences are synth for the base on, they would have sounded like every other eighties band. I think that's probably what made them stand out. And yeah, the IBSA, I think IBSA was where they got their ideas for the album. But I think in Peter's book he was saying how they didn't actually get a lot

of work done. They spent probably like five times the amount of time there, but they only got like, you know, ten percent of the album done there and then they went back to England and actually finished it. Not one of my favorite albums. What what do you think? Something about it just seemed a little too The Veneer was a little too sharp. I don't know, there was something about it that I I yeah, I mean I can

see feeling that way. If because and I said to be more of a Division fan, and in a way I am too, I would probably lean more towards Joy Division, although I love New Order, and I think the argument for Technique is that I think that is sort of the ultimate manifestation of like the evolution that Joy Division into New Order had at the end of the eighties, Like that was what they were building up to, that this was going to be a record where I think

it's really hard to separate the rock and the dance influences, like in the way that you can easily separate on Brotherhood. Maybe to that Records detriment, Although I like that there's a rock side in the dance side. I think it's a really sort of interesting split, and I think there's great songs on that record, But on Technique it's like

fully integrated. And I think when you look at what was going to be happen sending in British rock in eighty nine and beyond, you know, like with bands like Stone Roses and Happy Mondays and Primal Scream, you know, all those groups that we're going to be, you know, sort of taking rock music in that direction. You have to look at Technique as being like a very foundational record of that sort of evolution. I have to say

to that. In a way, I feel like New Order ended with that record, because that's when you start to see these side projects come into play, and it just seems like them being like a real band, Like they're gonna come together and follow apart over the next couple of decades. But I don't know if it's ever going to be quite the same after this record. Yeah, it

sounds like Peter Hook would agree with you. He was saying that they were on tour uh In and Bernie basically gave them right before a gig the I want to work with other people talk, which you know, I think, he writes, he said he played the irreplaceable frontman card and won the hand. From that moment onwards, we were always wondering what Barney might do next, whether we were so plus two requirements, and it cast a power of doubt and uncertainty over the whole band from then on,

because yeah, he said. You know, we know now that they got back together on several other occasions, but at the time, it seemed like that could have definitely been the end. And I think it was almost like a new young situation where they wanted to sort of like acquiesced to his desires just to sort of keep them, yeah,

for sure. And and also, I mean they're also starting to form their own bands at this point too, right, I mean, because like, I think that was a big problem for Peter Hook that Bernard Sumner went off and formed Electronic with Johnny Marr. I love the fact that in Peter's book he talks about Johnny Marr. He claims that Johnny Marr wanted to form a band with him first, and he said, no, he's made my heart's a new order. I don't want to do this. And then you know,

a short while later he teams up with Bernie. I thought that was a really funny like, yeah, no, he wanted me first, but I said no, I had integrity. I wanted to stay with New Order, and Bernie's the one who wanted to split the band and go off

and do this this other thing. But but yeah, he formed Electronic with with Johnny Marr uh, and I think it also worked with Neil ten from the Pitch Up Boys too, and uh, I didn't enjoy it for the same reason I didn't really like Technique, although I don't get the message is a good song and it's it huge numbers on both sides of the Atlantic. But yeah, I I think it was just I certainly don't like it anywhere near as much as New Order. What do

you think? Yeah, I think it's okay. I mean again, I'm of the opinion that these two guys are great together. Obviously we have Joy Division and New Order in that column where these guys are working together, and then you have Electronic and then yeah, Peter Hooks band Revenge, which I feel like, should we just take that band name a face value? That he was like sticking it to Bernard Sumner by forming his own band. I mean, it

seems like that's pretty straightforward there. I mean, he claimed it was he took it from the word that was on George Michael's leather jacket in the Faith video. But I mean, these band names are very on the nose. I mean, Bernie forming an electro band called Electronic and then forming a rival band called Revenge. Yeah, it seems

like they got the name thing down pretty well. Yeah, Like if you were making like the biopic about these guys, you would think, Okay, like this is just too obvious, you know, like we're being a little too on the nose by having these the side projects. But they end up coming back together for the album Republic, and according to Peter Hook anyway, it seems like this wasn't something

that they would have done of their own volition. That they were essentially hustled into the studio because Factory Records and the Hacienda again we're just hemorrhaging money and they needed a new order record to keep those companies afloat. So they end up working on this record and it ends up being a pretty miserable experience, right, But it's actually one of my favorite albums of There's too I mean, it's got I think it was their biggest hit in

the US, right, it was something like that. It did extremely well, but yeah, this was not something that they would have done on their own volition. Yeah, the song Regret, I think is one of their best singles, and I think one of the best sounding songs I've ever heard. I mean, just like the mix of that I think is so perfect. And again you have, I think, everything

very distinctively New Order on that song. You have uh this great uh you know, Bernard Sumner vocal on there with his guitar playing off of Peter Hook's very melodic bass sound. And uh. The thing about New Order songs too that always blows me away is that, like their choruses are usually just like another verse, you know, like it's not just like it's not a conventional type of chorus where maybe you're just singing like a very punchy

phrase over and over again. You're just kind of going into like another line and it ends up being like a very wordy chorus, like the way it is on Regret, Like I would like a place I can call my own, have another conversation on the telephone. All that it's very similar to to True Faith and Bizarre Love. Triangle. It's a very unique songwriting uh technique, and it's against something

that makes it very distinctively new order. But yeah, even in spite of all that commercial and creative success, they really went into a downturn after that. I think they didn't speak together for something. I didn't speak to one another for something like five years afterwards. They only really got back together in the suggestion of their manager, and Hook would later claim that their manager, Rob Gretton, got him and Steve and Jillian together first and suggested touring

without Bernie. But then Hook, you know, said he did the stand up thing and said, no, we're not in the order without Bernie, so go get him. So he takes credit for getting the entire band back together. It's, you know, for debate whether or not that's true. But yeah,

they had a sort of a honeymoon period. They all got together and tried to iron out their differences beforehand, and recording their two thousand one album, get Ready, went reasonably well, although I think Hook was really frustrated that that Bernie really didn't want to tour much, and he also really really was angry that Bernie would go off and write his own lyrics and vocal parts, because he

he made a really interesting point. He said, you know, I view recording as a team sport, and everybody plays their positions. Bernie sacrifices everything to the song. You know, if he has an idea for for the baseline or this or that, he's gonna go in and do it regardless of He doesn't mind getting in there and elbowing people out of the way if he thinks it suits the song, which I think it's a very generous read on. You know, it's a nice way of saying that he's

a control freak. I guess I think this can be regarded as somewhat of a honeymoon period for these guys. I know that Peter Hook has talked about how he felt that him and Sumner worked together as well as they had in years on get Ready, and you know, he had gone into that project saying that, like, I'm not going to make another New Order record if it's

like Republic, because again, like that experience was really bad. Apparently, like the rest of the band had worked on their own for a long time while Sumner was off doing his own thing with Electronic and then he came in late in the process and basically just kind of redid everything and it just wasn't them working together as a band, and I think that's what again Hook really wanted them

to do. And when you listen to that record get Ready, I mean, it does sound like a band record, and it does also sound more like a rock record, like the big single Crystal off that record, which I think is a great song. I mean that sounds like an alt rock song inspired by the nineties, you know, like I think like Billy Corgan is on that album, like Bobby Gillespie from Primal Scream is on that is on

that album. It's funny too, because like when you watch the video for for Crystal, the name of the band that's performing in that video is called The Killers, And that's where the Killers got their name, was from that music video. Yeah. So of course the Killers being one of the many bands that borrowed a lot from New Order, you know, as they progress in their career. But it's funny to me that like one of the sources of tension like that sort of spoiled this honeymoon again was

related to the Hacienda. It was a rare, financially canny move on on Peter Hook's part the Hacienda finally closed after you know, dying a long death in and Peter bought the name rights to it, which you could then license to, you know, compilation albums. I think he actually even licensed it to some a block up apartment flats

that were built on the site. And he said it was all above board, but Bernie made it seemed like and and felt that it was he went behind the band's back and bought the naming rights for this thing that they all sunk so much money into over the years, and then he took it for himself. Peter would say, you know, that's really stupid. I've been going to Hassienda meetings every week for years and and Bernie just never cared. I was offered the opportunity to buy it, and I did,

and you know, I have no regrets about it. But that made it seem like, as far as Bernie was concerned, that there was some kind of sneaky double dealing behind his back, and that really spoiled their relationship. I don't think I ever recovered from that. Actually, yeah, I think Sumners said that like he lost respect for Peter Hook after that, which seems like a little dramatic to me, maybe I'm not fully appreciating the steak that they all

had in the Hacienda. It just seems odd to me that again, like the goddamn Hacienda winds up ruining this band in a way. It's like, why do you have so much invested in this in this nightclub? It just seems insane to me. But you know, I think another thing that was happening at this time time is that they started working on the next New Order record, which was waiting for The Siren's Call, which didn't come out

until two thousand five. And I alluded to this earlier, but this was a record that they worked on for three years. I think there's something like a half dozen different producers that worked on that record. It just seems like one of those like really overcooked, like superstar band type albums. I actually think that there's like some pretty decent songs on that record. I don't know how you

feel about that album. Peter would say that they initially started off almost like approaching it as they would enjoy the Vision project where they would jam together and refine ideas, and it was probably the most bad like album in the beginning that they had made for years, and then Hook would claim at least that Barney would just unilaterally decided that he would go off and again write all of his these lyrics and vocal melodies on his own, and that kind of soured the experience for him at

that point. And also Hook's uh alcoholism at this point was really reaching an extremely bad state. So that also contributed to, uh, a not great studio environment. Yeah. Yeah, Peter Hook again being more of the like rock star in the band essentially, like he was. He's admitted to this that he had like a full blown alcoholic breakdown,

you know during the making of this record. I wonder if to some degree that was fueled just by his frustration over not being able to tour, you know, because yeah, I think he just felt probably constrained in this band that we're working on this record, it's taken forever, and I can't even go on the road, uh, you know, and being a musician, and that causes him to start this sideline career where he's a celebrity DJ essentially, and this ends up being like a big thing for him

that like he's touring the world, spinning records for people, and I guess that was a replacement for being a touring musician at this time, you know, like he wanted to be on the road. So it's like, I can't play with New Order, so I'm gonna be a DJ. I'm gonna play post punk songs for for kids in nightclubs. This this is going to be a great for me.

And this is another thing that ends up sort of contributing to the deterioration of this band because they're working on the next New Order record, which is Lost Sirens, ends up being the last record with Peter Hook, and according to Bernard Sumner, like they wanted to have Peter Hook come into the studio to play, and Hook was basically like, I can't do it. I'm dejaying, So then you know, he couldn't be around and and again it just seemed like that was another thing that just really

stuck in Sumners cross. The best part is that Peter later admitted that when he was dejaang, he wasn't actually djaying. He was just playing pre mixed CDs and then miming, you know, like putting his hands to his headphones and on the turntables and stuff. So I don't know, isn't that what every DJ does I think that's my you know, I have a conspiracy theory about every DJ. They're just playing mixed CDs or they got like a really cool Spotify playlist and there and they have they're pretending to

play you know, cool vinyl. But yeah, they're just they're just chilling back there scrolling through their Instagram feed. As a long term wedding DJ, I can say, you put your one hand up to your headphone and just kind of bob your head. You're a DJ. There you go, even if you listen to Spotify. So they do their final tour in South America in late two thousand and six, and for some of their Hook is just becoming more

and more unbearable. Uh, he's just writing his memoir that you know, he refused to sit near him on planes. It would just kind of like catch him giving him glares across the stage, and whenever a camera would try to do a close up on Bernie on stage, took with like, you know, walk in front of it and block him. It was a really rough time and he would say he would cite that the fact that Hook got sober as sort of like he said, he turned into a worse person. I didn't with his quote. Uh

and hohok kind of agreed. He'd say, you know, for years, I've been stuffing down all my frustration with with Bernie, with with with alcohol and just kind of dulling my senses. Now I was clean, I'm thinking, you know, I don't have to deal with this. I'm tired of this. I'm tired of Bernie, he said. I'm sick of having my heartbroken. I was sick of trying to play music and being told to turn it down. I was sick of having the touring experience spoiled by someone who, by his own

frequent admission, didn't want to be there. And I was sick of being dick aded too in studio sessions. I was just fucking sick of Bernard Sumner. And uh, it all builds up to this, Uh, this show in Buenos Aires where he tells the local press, you know, this is probably gonna be our last show, and uh, all throughout the tour that was kind of the just the feeling.

He famously he would write messages on his base cab, and for the last couple of dates in the tour, he wrote in a series of messages two boys formed a band, then the next day it all went wrong. Then in the next day they split and then for their last gig, the end, and that was really the end of Peter Hook in the band. Yeah, Like he does this thing in Me two thousand seven where he announces that they're breaking up without talking to the other guys in the band. And if you listen to this show,

you know that this has happened in other bands. You know, this happened in Pink Floyd with Roger Waters, it happened in Talking Heads with David Byrne, and it happened in New Order. And I think it's hilarious that this came out of an interview that Peter Hook was doing promoting his appearance on a record by a band called Satellite Party, which was like one of Perry Farrell's, like many side projects. I feel like every X musician in a band who left prematurely has ended up in a band with Perry

Farrell at some point. It's just one of the laws of rock history that like, if you leave your band prematurely, Perry Farrell is gonna like blow up your cell phone and be like, hey, man, play on this kind of

crappy band. I just started, Uh, so anyway, he makes this announcement that New Order has done, and of course the other guys in New Order are upset about this and they're like, no, we're not done, and it ends up becoming this this sort of like war of words between them, and I think, like Bernard Summer, do you like put out a statement essentially saying like no, like you're full of it, like we're still going to do

our thing. Yeah. It was very much like the Pink Floyd situation where I was saying, like, you don't have the right to end this band. You can leave it and that's fine, you cannot work with me, but you can't just say that that we are not a band anymore, because we are. I think that was the argument of who had the right to actually like kill the band.

I mean, it seems like in Peter Hook's mind that he felt like it was obvious that they were done, and that's why he felt that he could make this statement publicly because things had evolved to such a point in the band where it didn't seem like anyone really wanted to work together. But I wonder if, like Sumner, and to a lesser extent, you know, Stephen Morris, and Jillian Gilbert saw an opening here where they're like, well,

this guy left. He's the guy that is the loudest, the brashest guy, kind of like the Roger Waters figure, I guess, and he's leaving now maybe we can still hold on to this valuable brand name and and move forward. Yeah. Hook would say that the band had agreed to split up in February about seven, and he made the actual announcement that he made was pretty tame. He said, me and Bernard aren't working together anymore, which is you know,

you can read that. Men know that what you will? Uh. So that when Bernard and the rest of the band released the is like, really, I rate press releases, saying, you know, what are you talking about? The band is still together. I guess he called Steven Morris and said, what are you talking about? We we discussed this. We're not a band anymore, and cording to Hook at least, Stephen said, oh, you know me, Hooky, whichever way the wind blows, meaning you know, whichever whoever is in charge,

I'll listen to that guy. So it sounds like, yeah, like what you said, why would you let this incredibly potent brand name, uh go to waste. But the weird thing was they did for a number of years, right, New Order without Hook became Bad Lieutenant for a number of years, which I never really understood because it was basically New Order with Phil Cunningham and uh I think

Blurs Alex James was on base for a while. Yeah, I mean, to me, this just seems like, Okay, let's just give it a shot, let's see if we can do something else and if you know, maybe people will like it, which of course they're not going to like it, because you know, New Order at at this point, again, they're this valuable brand, their a legacy act. If you're going to go see them, you want to hear True Faith, You want to hear Bizarre Love Triangle, you want to

hear your favorite hits. You don't want to hear Bernard Sumner and Stephen Morris jam and with a dude from Blur. You know, like it's not gonna work. And like that's why no one remembers Bad Lieutenant. No one has said the words bad Lieutenant in reference to Bernard Sumner until this podcast. It's been a decade since anyone even uttered

that reference. So yeah, to me, it seems like a foreground conclusion that they were eventually going to try to figure out a way to do this band without Peter Hook, which is what happened. I guess that was like two thousand eleven or so. Yeah. Hook goes off to form The Light, which pretty much just is a Joy Division New Orders cover band. There they famously go out and play four albums front the Back, which was awesome because it stuff from Closer and never really been performed live,

so that was really great to hear. And they put out live albums and EPs and stuff. I think they only did one EP of studio stuff and that was just joint Division covers. Uh and uh, I guess that really piste off Bernie. You know, these were the sacred Joy Division songs that weren't to be played live. And then Hook was asked about it and he said, oh bullshit. Bernard never liked playing the old songs. He thought Joy Division were depressing. Even if I asked him for permission,

he would have told me to funk off anyway. So Hook is very sort of, you know, rebelliously playing these old songs. Meanwhile, New Order reforms with Phil Cunningham on base, and uh, Peter is not happy he puts out a statement on I Think It's my Space where he says he's surprised and sad. Everyone knows that New Order without Peter Hook is like Queen without Freddie Mercury or I don't know about that, you two without the Edge that I could see that actually. Uh yeah, he's very nice. Yeah,

I think that's fair. He's very hurt by this. Yeah. And but again, as we have seen in other examples, certainly with Pink Floyd, not so much with Talking Heads, I mean talking Heads without David Byrne, that doesn't really seem to work. But Pink Floyd without Roger Waters, they just rolled forward, and a New Order without Peter Hook, they rolled forward. They put out a record. Uh, I guess I was called Music Complete that actually did pretty well.

And it seems like now in recent years, like Bernard Sumner has been more enthusiastic about touring because they've actually become like a pretty big festival band. So uh, which I'm sure on some level must have also been maddening to Peter Hook. Didn't he have a thing that like he was accusing the bass player in New Order of like miming his parts on stage? Oh yeah, he said that, like, if you listen to what's playing over the p A system, you'll see that, like his hands are down at the

low end of the base. And then yeah, he accused him of that, and then I guess Bernie said something like, you know, no, Hook used to do that too, that's just the Semeth part. It's it's fine. Yeah. I thought that was rich coming from a guy who admitted to miming DJ sets. But but hey, but yeah, Hook said, yeah, you still hear my parts at concerts. I'm in the

background like a ghost. This is quote. I think what really ends up pissing him off is the royalty situation in New Order, because this is always hard to talk about because you get into sort of the byzantine, uh you know, sideways and byways of like how music contracts work. But essentially, didn't New Order like start a new company without Peter Hook so that they could continue to tour and then like just bring Peter Hook's royalty rate down

like to like a mini school degree. Yeah, it sounds like Hook was entitled to the same royalty rate that he would get for all the New Order songs that he'd contributed two years before. But they formed a new company for all the new stuff going forward without him, and they still cut it in I think for one point to five percent, which is you know, I mean, I don't know much about any of the stuff, but it seems pretty generous to give him money for stuff

he's not even writing or playing on. But Hook made it seem like they went behind my back and cut me out of this band and formed a company. I think his lawyer used the analogy of it's like if if Paul and George got together and and I decided to form a new company and not tell John like that was how he put it, and he took him the court. Yeah, they ended up making this settlement I guess in seventeen, and of course the details were not

made public, as they never are in these situations. But it seems like, well Peter Hook might have gotten, uh, you know, a measure of financial satisfaction. He's like more aggrieved than ever. Like I read this interview that he did. I think this was like like nineteen like not that long ago, where he was just talking about how it was unforgivable, like what Bernard Sumner did to him, that he feels like essentially this band that he helped to

start was taken away from him. He doesn't have anything to do with their legacy anymore, and he feels betrayed. His quote was to start a band in nineteen eighty from the ashes of your lead singer suicide and then have it cruelly taken off you thirty one years later. But the other members of the band, I defy any human being not to bary grudge. If it wasn't for the wife, I'd probably be in prison right now. I mean, yeah,

that's you can't argue with much of that. And he he has a lot to vent, and he he vents over the course of three memoirs to the tune of fifteen hundred pages. Uh So I guess that that's his only real legal recourse. And it seems like that is where we are right now. That like Hook feels again portrayed and Sumner and I guess maybe Stephen Morrison, Jullian Gilbert is a fair to say that they're probably just feeling relieved that they don't have to do with Peter

Hook anymore. Yeah, it sounds like that. I think Bernie said in interviews that, you know, being in a band with Peter Hook was not exactly a picnic. So yeah, it seems like that they're probably relieved that that that Firecrackers out of the picture. Yeah, and as much as I love Peter Hook, I have to agree that, yes, it would not be a picnic to be in a band with him. And they recently did attributes to Ian Curtis for the anniversary of his death, and they couldn't

even come together for that. They had two separate attributes with newly reformed New Order and on one side and Peter Hook and The Light on the other. Yeah, so I guess at this point, not even Ian Curtis cannot bring these guys together, which is like a very unfortunate thing. But like I said at the top, I feel like a lot of the rivalries that we've talked about have somewhat resolved themselves, usually by the end of our episode. But the hatred here between these two guys just seems

like as white hot as it's ever been. Yeah, I don't think this has gone away anytime soon. We're gonna take a quick break and get a word from our sponsor before we get two more rivals. Well we know, which is part of the episode where we give the pro side of each part of the Revelry. I guess we'll do the Peter Hook side first. Yeah. Again, for me, like I said, I'm a Peter Hook fan, I'm biased in his regard. I think he's a pretty hilarious guy, even though I think it's pretty clear that he's a

difficult personality. But again, like for me, I just think his bass sound is like such a distinctive part of this band, and he's a complete original. To me, I think if you take him out of the musical mix of this band, they would have maybe been more of like a conventional synth pop band. But because he was in there, he was able to give maybe that rock edge to what they were doing, and it just made

them more unique and I think ultimately more influential. Oh yeah, absolutely, I think that he's playing as the hallmark of that band. He's one of my bass playing heroes. I mean yeah, I think he invented the premise of a lead baseline.

I mean it's not only the heartbeat of the song, but it's the melody and just as a one of rock's great rack on tourism personalities, I think he's up there with the Gallaghers and David Crosby, which, again, as much as that makes him entertaining to watch and read, uh, probably makes him a nightmare to actually be in a

band with. So if you go to the pro Sumner side, I mean, I think it's fair to say that his instinct to push the band forward, like away from punk and more toward of like a like a danceable pop sound,

it seems like that instinct was pretty spot on. I mean, like that is what made New Order so huge, and I think ultimately like important, I mean, to be fair, like his assessment that being in the band with Peter Hook is no picnic as we've said, I mean, I think he's probably right, Like it was very difficult to be with this guy, especially again like where he was wanting them to maybe stay more in the past while

Peter Hook was pushing them forward. So yeah, as much as I love Peter Hook, I'd want to hang out with Peter Hook, I think more than anyone anyone else in the band. In a way, I feel like, well, it makes sense that that Bernard Sumner ultimately is the leader of this group. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean I think he was. He was the innovator. I think he found a way forward that was definitely unique, but without

alienating fans of of what had come before. And Joy Division and We he said earlier, it just seems like genuinely a good guy. And like his memoir he talks a lot about like wanting to keep balanced family life with professional life. I don't know, he seems like the most sane member of the group. I would say too, but it doesn't have Peter Hook's pension for drama. So if you look at these two guys together, I mean,

I'll just repeat what I said at the top. I mean, this is the power center of two of the greatest post punk bands of all time, Joy Division and New Order. Like, if you're writing the history of alternative and indie music, you have to write a lot about those two bands, and like, these two guys were at the center of both of them. And you know, when they're on their own, you end up with groups like Electronic and Revenge and The Lights and Bad Lieutenant, you know, which are not

groups that anyone cares about. But you put these guys together and you end up with real magic. So for all of the white hot hatred that still exists between these two fellas together, they're just better than they are when they're apart. Yeah, I mean, Hook said that himself a couple of years back in the interview, said, I've come to the conclusion that it's chemistry that makes you write great music is the chemistry that will tear you apart.

It's like a relationship. The bit that attracts you is the bit that will drive you apart after a while. And I've come to the conclusion that people who write great music together should not play it. They should give it to somebody else to play. And uh, yeah, kind of what's happening now, I guess yeah, I think he's right, But again, it's never gonna happen. I cannot imagine a situation where these two guys will ever play music together.

Absolutely not, which is which is sad. This is probably, i'd say, maybe up there with talking heads in terms of, you know, pigs fly kind of likelihood. Well, Jordan, I hope that love will never tear us apart or hatred or whatever the case may be, because we have so many more rivalries and beefs and feuds to talk about

on this show. So hopefully that won't happen because we have just so much more to talk about on this show, So next week join us again for more beefs and feuds and long super resentments here on Rivals So Long. Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor Chicoin and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Staff. I'm Jordan's Run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden.

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