Offshoring GRC Functions: The Human Reality

This is Risky Women Radio, a show that connects, celebrates and champions women in risk regulation and compliance. We’re here to share the insights on the biggest issues in our industry and hear inspiring journeys from our global members. Sign up to our newsletter at riskywomen.org. I’m Kimberley Cole, your Chief Risky Woman.

Welcome to Risky Women Radio. Today's risky woman is Rhea Sharma, and we are thrilled to have Rhea join us today, because she was the winner of our inaugural Risky Women Write competition that we ran for the first time last year, in 2024 and we're really looking forward to running it again. And today we're going to talk about the article that she wrote that was called Offshoring GRC Functions: The Human Reality. And today's topic is going to be the cost of speaking up and looking at that

offshoring integrity and breaking the corporate code. So let me give you a quick introduction to Rhea before she gets to tell us more about herself. I would say she is a fabulous emerging talent in the GRC space. She blends legal expertise cultural insight and has an absolutely unwavering

sense of integrity. She's a GRC professional from Western Sydney, and she was admitted as a lawyer and a certified anti money laundering specialist, and she's got nearly a decade of experience in AML and CTF and beyond navigating complex regulatory landscape, she's a really bold storyteller and an advocate, using her writing skills to spotlight issues of cultural identity, patriarchy and systemic injustice. She currently writes with Sweatshop, a Western Sydney based writers

collective. And growing up as a Punjabi girl in Liverpool in Southwest Sydney, Rhea learned to code switch through Eurocentric spaces, but her words and work remain unapologetically true to her roots. Her recent win in the Risky Women competition reflects her commitment to speaking up even if it comes at some personal cost. It's a real testament to her belief in integrity. And I want to sort of just share some of the comments that the judges also made on this comment. So firstly, welcome Rhea.

Thank you. Thank you. And you got some really great feedback on your article. And some of the feedback was that it was a really unique piece. It was personal and really timely from an ESG perspective, and it really showed the impact with a balanced lens with critical decisions across sectors. And one judge said, very memorable. It was described as well written and documented was highlighting

a key industry issue. Excellent! This is the winner for me - speaking truth to power can be used beyond risk as well. Another judge said, I am admittedly biased to any article that exposes human trafficking, but kudos to the author for exposing an issue with offshoring that is rarely discussed. Another judge said it's a bold, stark look at the Human Reality of large international corporations offshoring to third countries, exploiting regional wage

disparity. And finally, the final judge said, This article has got it all, a powerful article, well written and tackling an uncomfortable subject. There is an element of storytelling, but also sound technical basis, incorporating economics and GRC aspects with a strong conclusion. So fabulously well done. Thank you. Clear winner to the competition, and we had some fantastic other entries. Yes!

I'd obviously recommend that everyone goes and reads your article, but also reads several of the other articles that we have on the Risky Women website. So I've given you, obviously, a big introduction. I know I appreciate that. Thank you. But obviously you've got, as I said, nearly a decade of experience, and you've got experience in industries like payments and consulting and gambling, but obviously this

focus on financial crime compliance. So give us a bit about the journey and how you got there and where you are today.

Yeah, wow. Well, so much to take in, really, from the feedback to the introduction, I just have to say, firstly, thank you for that. It feels wonderful to be recognized for my writing, because obviously it's something I'm very, very passionate about, and I know that in comparison to a lot of the wonderful women that you've interviewed on this podcast, I still am truly at the

infancy of my career. But, you know, like a lot of children of migrants, my career wasn't so much a blank canvas as it was a, you know, a carefully curated shortlist by my parents. I always had a natural gravitation towards creative writing, but I still had to choose between the classic professions of being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, you know, the sensible ones. And you know, when I was in law school, actually, Enron was still being used as one of the textbook examples of the far reaching

impact that corporate behavior had on the world. And it just felt right, I guess when I fell into the regulatory compliance at the end of my degrees. And like you said, I've been in a diverse range of industries, but really for me, the last decade has been about setting up the building blocks for my future, exposing myself to many, many different businesses, workplaces and work cultures, and so, yeah, I guess through it all, I developed a deep expertise in regulatory compliance, and

particularly in financial crime. So these days, I mean, apart from completing my MBA, and I'm also doing a master's in law, I'm working with Sweatshop and the Westbridge Writers Centre to affect my debut novel, and I'm also searching for the right role for my skill set. So I'm actually working pro bono at the moment as a company secretary and legal advisor of Women's

Lantern. And so Women's Lantern is a grassroots charity in its early stages dedicated supporting South East Asians, women facing domestic, family and gender based violence, and so we're still so new and growing our presence in the non for profit space. So I guess if your listeners could please follow us on social media like LinkedIn, it would make a huge difference in helping us build awareness and reach the communities that need us the most. That's amazing. Gosh, what amazing stuff you're still

continuing to do. And I love that sort of how you're looking at bringing both passion and purpose together. But obviously you're very busy as well. You've done an MBA, you're doing your masters, so that's incredible. And I love the impactful work that you're talking about, that you're doing with NGOs and pro

bono work, and you're still upskilling. What's the biggest challenge, I guess you find in doing all of that work together and looking for, I guess you are looking for full time work, or That's right. finding something that really resonates with you?

Exactly. Yeah, I mean challenges. Well, I know that people have differing views about this, and there's also no right or wrong answer, but my personal belief is that in your 20s, you should explore different workplaces, be open to new opportunities and allow yourself to make the freedom to have lots and lots of career mistakes, and I know so far in my career, I've taken a lot of risks and made a lot of mistakes and I think because I have basically worked everywhere, and

even before I finished university Kim, I think I had done everything from telemarketing to collections at a bank. And, you know, I even had a brief stint at one of those dodgy companies that promised vulnerable people that

can fix their credit ratings. I don't know, maybe heard much about them, but that was before I finished university, and after finishing university, when I got all my big girl jobs, I explored and, you know, because I have never followed that traditional career path and that traditional career mold, it's been like a strength and a challenge for me, because I don't fit neatly into a box. You know, I have been shaped by my curiosity. I've

been shaped by my desire to keep learning. But the good news is, even though knowledge is power and I know what I'm looking for from a cultural standpoint, the real challenge, I guess, is finding a job, the right job, and I guess it can be a blessing and a curse to have so much passion and energy to incite

change and do so much. But I guess hopefully I soon find out, or figure out, what an acceptable trade off looks like to me, because, yeah, the reality is, and I know Kimberley well your experience, you would definitely know this, but no workplace is ever going to be 100% perfect, especially when it comes to things like corporate governance, yeah, and I think right now, for me, it's about patience and waiting and waiting for all the risks I've taken, all the self investment, all the

upskilling and growing and evolving to pay off and pay off in a way that aligns with my definition of success. Yeah, it's a really interesting one. And I also think the way that the world is changing, and you've got different emphasis around some of these elements in different countries. I mean, it's amazing that you say, like Enron was one of those cases that influenced your thinking or your direction. And if you look at the ESG agendas across the different regions, you know, it

really varies. And I think at the moment, you know, Europe is very focused on ESG, and probably more so than a lot of other countries, Yes. and it's maybe where you find those different companies that have that focus as well. But, I mean, I do love it, if you can find the company that allows you to use your skills in that way. And I think for a long time, I had that at Thomson Reuters with the Thompson Reuters Foundation, which had been very active in

stopping slavery. And I managed to bring the conference that was held in London to Asia, and we brought together governance, risk and compliance customers as well as all of the banks, and we related it to how our business operated, which was financial

data and following the money. And then we obviously had the Check service, and that was very focused on anti money laundering and know your customer, and we worked with NGOs to get data into that system so that the banks could connect and could understand much more, in much greater detail, across different jurisdictions, what was going on. So I think if you can find that it's an absolutely magical combination, but it's not necessarily... I'm glad that you had the opportunity to experience that

as well. Like to bring your values to the workplace and use that to incite change. And was that a long process for you to find that role? Or... It was fairly well into my career there, but it was because when I moved to London, the lady who ran the Foundation asked me to help with getting some sponsorship for the conference, and then I understood more about it, and then I saw the

connections with the business. And Thompson Reuters also agreed that they would make a donation to the charity that we were using to get data from. So every sale of World Check we made, we made a donation with particular NGO charity, which I think was pretty special. I appreciate that you said that you were well into your career at the time as well, because I do think it takes some time to figure out what your values are and how you can align that to your work.

And I think if you're trying to do it with a corporate it's got to help everybody, and you've got to look for those kind of win win opportunities, which is, I always think about even Risky Women. I started at Thomson Reuters, and to me, it obviously has a lot of benefits for the women that we connect. But it was also, in my mind, business as well, that it was women

helping women do business. And you shouldn't shy away from that kind of commercial element to anything that's also altruistic and good. Agreed. I mean, I'm sure we'll touch on that even that transactional relationship that an employee has with its employer as well and that they are there to receive some sort of benefit, whether that's, you know, monetary or otherwise. Yeah, reputational, etc. Yeah. So it obviously is a challenge trying to find those opportunities that align and

that you know match. So what kind of motivates you and keeps you moving forward to try under? Yeah, that's a really nice question. I mean, to be fair, there is no shortage in research, in academic literature that supports the fact that these periods in your life where you're at a crossroads a difficult life stage sorta will are a defining factor in what fuels a person's ability to

actually reach their goals. And I've had to remind myself through this stage that resilience and optimism, determination and even having a low fear of failure, are all traits that our greatest inventors and business minds at our times shared. And I know that at my core, I aspire to take my life and my career to places that women in my family

could not. And I once read this article actually about leadership development, and it said that developing leaders need to recognize their inner demons as energy sources for drive and determination, and that's because obviously all our life experiences, whether good or bad, shape the way that we behave as leaders, whether consciously or unconsciously.

And I know from my own experiences, not only is challenging the status quo one of my motivational values, but so is recognizing injustice and harnessing my outsider within dominant Australian corporate culture to advocate for not just for myself, but for those otherwise marginalized by

Eurocentric organizations. So really, it just comes down to, I know it's taken a lot for me to remind myself this constantly, but I think it helps that I immerse myself in a lot of thought leadership that talk to these topics, that talk to living your truth and living authentically, and women and leadership and with Risky Women as well. That keeps me motivated, because you realize the diversity, the opportunity, and that no one's journey is linear, really.

Excellent. Well, I'll give you another kind of term, you know that I was described as once, which I think you could be as well, which is constructively disruptive. And I think I love that. That's always a good one is that, yep, you want to challenge the status quo, as you said, but it's kind of being constructively disruptive, rather than just disruptive for the sake of it. Exactly. Evidence based!

This episode is brought to you by Kroll. Stay ahead with Kroll as the leading independent provider of financial and risk advisory solutions. Kroll leverages their unique insights, data and technology to help clients stay ahead of complex demands. So I think it's also interesting to look obviously at your background. And you are a woman of color, a first generation Indian Australian. So how has that sort of helped shape the career choices? You said, parental views and things at the start.

Of course, I mean, my grandmother was actually married at 14 years old, like my mother's mother, and then my mother unconsciously sacrificed any possibility of having a career because of traditional gender roles in my community. And to this day, my extended family remains in Punjab, which

is the state north of Delhi, just bordering Pakistan. So I've been going back every one to two years my whole life, and I think because I've been consistently immersed in such an ultra conservative society, I know too well about the cultural expectations of women, what their standing in society looks like, and then at the same time to be an Australian woman holding on to such heartbreaking revelations about the plight of my extended family, it's actually become part of my own

inner demons, like I mentioned earlier. So I guess for me, even though I'm aware of the structural constraints that I face as a woman of color, and even sometimes as a woman from Western Sydney, I also remember to check my privilege, because despite like the parental pressures, the cultural pressures, I still have access to education, I still have access to choice, to the freedom to do things on my own timeline.

Yes, I will meet some resistance, but I guess that's the price I pay for winning the generational lottery for me to be born into Australia. So yeah, I guess I also use my own experience, actually, with gender based violence, with inequality as energy sources, to have these passionate, constructive, disrupter conversations, using my distinct perspective and also identify those biases, not just to women, but all of those that are disadvantaged by inequitable power structures.

Wow, that's I think you know lots of different things going on there, and I know there's so many sub topics within that! So I think you are doing a job, diversity of work and experience, etc, that you're doing, and obviously all of the educational challenges that you faced.

Yeah. I mean, that's exactly how I ended up here in writing the article that I wrote, because, you know, I thought a lot when the competition came out, and how I said to you earlier that it just coincided with me having those experiences, and you're calling it the specialist expert topics, and I wasn't an expert in this at all. I felt a sense of injustice, and I think that injustice comes from my background and my own lived experiences, and I really had to do the research to see, okay, is

this a GRC issue? How is the GRC issue? And learn and then also educate, because I am passionate about it, and my passions came from my regulatory compliance experience, my educational background, my cultural background, my social background. It all kind of just came together at the right moment for me to write something, I guess you know, as one of the judges said, so powerful.

Yeah, exactly. So, just to remind our listeners, so your topic was on offshoring, and it was the only time that we'd sort of seen content on this and certainly in the competition. But a lot of the judges who have got, you know, a lot of experience hadn't seen this tackled, certainly in the way that you had. So it's great to hear why you kind of decided that this was a topic to raise. And in the article, you mentioned the illusion of progress that offshore employees

face. Can you share more on what you were talking about there? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I only noticed the illusion of progress I was referring to only really came about from managing these

teams that were in Australia, New Zealand, the Philippines. I could see that even though they were gaining access to global opportunities, I still thought that it was really framed in terms like talent hubs and global delivery services, and kind of seemed like a smoke screen, because really, in those first two paragraphs of my article, I was telling a story.

And I was telling the story of my team leader, who was based in the Philippines, and she sort of managed the day to day operations and did everything that individual contributors did, plus more, she was my right hand, actually, and she had slowly been progressing through the organization, and her level of knowledge on systems and processes definitely surpassed mine, and I was relying on her a lot to tell me what was going on. And I hope Kim that I'm sure, or at least I hope that in

this conversation, you can tell what kind of leader I am. And even though I did everything I could to finesse her skills, and she showed so much potential and promise for growth in her career, I kind of felt sick knowing that I had analysts in Australia New Zealand who were getting paid it was about 26 times her salary, which is crazy. And despite the fact that I had, there were other team members in Australia and New

Zealand who reported to her and who were trained by her. And so I guess you know, the illusion of progress really lies in making offshore employees believe they're included in the global workforce, and providing them with that upward mobility and career development, but instead just actually giving them breadcrumbs and perhaps just only enough recognition to

feel included. Because with my team lead, even though I knew her earning potential would increase in Australia and I did not want to advocate for brain drain, because technically I am a product of brain drain myself and my family did get a better life, but I lost a lot of my cultural identity through it. So when I try to improve her working conditions and also of the other team members in the Philippines, and begged and proposed budgets for salaries and team building activities.

The organizational response to that was, why would we spend money on this when we could just, I guess, hire two more FTEs instead? And I realized it's the corporate machine at play, the corporate machine selling the illusion of progress. It sounds very pessimistic, but by the way, I did ask her before I left, I said that she should probably leave, and she mentioned that she couldn't migrate to Australia anyway, because her family needed her as a sole

breadwinner for her parents. Ah that extra bit of sting. Yeah, very challenging. They don't have equal footing at the end of the day under the surface, their growth is systematically capped, and I guess they're treated as cost savings tools rather than human capital worth developing. And yeah, it's very, very sad. And you mentioned brain drain a couple of times there, especially in countries like India. So how do you see that concept sort of tying into the ethics of offshoring.

So brain drain. I mean, I think it was coined in the UK, but in context of countries like India and the Philippines that I was really referring to that long term consequence of driving people out of their home countries. And when I say driving, it's not because they want to, it's because they have no choice if they want to be given opportunities or even like recognition, a better life and access to better health care, they will need to leave. You know, that's what happens. They

migrate. That's brain drain and action. And, you know, it's a bit of a trap. And I guess, when I was actually writing my article, Kim, I also consulted with another individual who was in Australia but had recently migrated from the Philippines, and I asked them why and how they migrated, and why better pay, how money from family and better education in comparison to my team leads. So what was he the lucky one, and that's why brain drain and offshoring are connected. I guess one sustains

the other. And like for me, coming from a diaspora background, I probably see it in a very personal way, where most of my extended family is still in Punjab, and with a few exceptions here and there, who come from highly skilled backgrounds like IT and dentistry, I know what it means when someone finally makes it out of India. Yeah, it's seen as the only real path to living a good life. Sure, you've heard brain drain. It's very common in India to be used.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And look, I mean, I think I did a lot of work on Filipino domestic workers in Hong Kong and Singapore is very prevalent. And obviously the overseas domestic workers are a massive benefit for the Filipino economy as well. So Yes, yes. It's not just corporate, it's government. It's the way that the country and the individuals work. And you know, obviously a lot of those women are leaving families behind and do become

the sole breadwinners. And obviously I am a huge benefitter of those women, because they facilitated a lot of my own career. It's a challenging topic. It is.

You also want to make sure that you know you can help them succeed as well. We are very lucky. As you said to have won the lottery of you know where you're born and the opportunities that you do, certainly in Australia. I liked in your article as well, you advocated for the use of a sustainability compass, and what are some of the other practical steps that you think organizations can take to make offshoring more ethical and aligned with ESG goals?

Yeah, I'll admit I only use that as a recommendation because of the word count limitation. It was an easy one to just stuck in there. You know, it's clear with most things in the Risk and Compliance space that unless hard law is involved, organizations won't be proactive. I know it sounds

pessimistic, but it really is realistic. And I said to you that this isn't my bread and butter, ESG and supply chain management and the practical recommendations that I give because there are loads of impactful things that can be done, and not all of them are easy to implement, but I know from a corporate strategy and business perspective, would be beneficial, because it enhances brand reputation and strengthens talent retention and aligns with the ever changing consumer,

investor expectations. But when I was leading the team in the Philippines, and I guess this is my first recommendation, because I think everybody should do it is capability building in a capacity building, I would have all my team members, irrespective of location, do presentations during team meetings on GRC principles behind their daily tasks, and that was to build out their public speaking, presenting,

reporting skills. It was completely voluntary, but it gave them an opportunity to build more skills outside of the day to day operational process orientated tasks they had so they could take into future roles. And it cost me nothing to find creative ways to develop their skill set at a management level, and I think that should be the expectation of all people

leaders. And you mentioned this indirectly, I think because I believe there should also be some level of structure and transparency to ensure fair pay banding procedurally in the organization. And I don't believe that we shouldn't be offshoring at all, and I'm completely against it. I understand that for operational reasons and strategic reasons, it's a viable option, and Absolutely it does, like I said,

bring in global opportunities. We don't need to be paying everyone equally, because the cost of living is different where you live, but there should be fairness in how roles are valued, like going back to the team leader, you know, I think that if someone is managing, leading or making key decisions, they pay and benefits should reflect that, or they should have other opportunities to reflect and other, you know,

hooks. But another thing that I felt because, there we are cultural nuances with managing teams in the Eastern world that taking into account cultural norms and specific locations, but giving them that direct line to voice what's working and what's not in a way that's culturally sensitive and informed. And that's like, I guess, through representation, easy access governance structures, you know, employee pulse surveys should be tailored for them specifically, if

anything. And then, by the same token, I guess seeing them outside of that supporting team lens, like they're just like sidekicks, giving them their seat at the table and including them in project design, process optimization, decision making and that kind of inclusion, I really believe will change organizational culture and organizational outcomes, and I know that without even saying obviously, ESG reporting and metrics, all of this stuff can be embedded into that as well,

including their developments burden and the diversity that being visible and accountable is extremely valuable, and it goes beyond organizations saying, Yeah, we create a jobs to Yes, we created jobs that offer dignity development and a future. So really, it's not that complicated, / expensive for organizations to implement, but it just takes a little bit of work, a little bit of planning, a little bit of time investment, really.

Yeah, well, there's some good tips there, and I think there are some organizations who are doing it well and set up... Yes, absolutely. ...centers that are fantastic. And I know even from some of my trips to India and the Philippines to see our centers there at Thomson Reuters, which were huge data management centers, our support functions, etc, etc. I mean, they're just so vibrant number one because of the scale as well, which was

fantastic. So, and they are given, you know, the same training opportunities as the rest of the organization, travel opportunities, etc. So I think there are some good things, but I think you highlight some of that ability to make or ensuring that those opportunities are identified and that people are progressed through the organization fairly is a unique one. I like that you said that these organizations exist, and I

completely agree. I mean, there's a lack of uniformity, of course, between organizations, but the fact that they exist gives me hope and optimism that I'm going to find the right organization for me that's going to align with my values. So yeah, that's something to look forward to. And very, very good.

Yeah and it was a fantastic article, and you're doing some absolutely amazing things, and I'm sure you are going to find that match to what you're looking for, or at least several of them along your career. I appreciate that. I appreciate that, Kim.

Just to wrap up, what's the next innovation or positive change that you see coming? Oh, there's so much, actually, but I would say the world is moving and slowly changing into a better place. But one of those things is definitely on my radar, decentralized finance.

I've been doing a lot of research in this space, and I've looked at a lot of regulatory responses, I think, from like over 30 international governments and governmental organizations and international organizations, and I can tell you, they all agree on the same risks when it comes to cyber security and cyber crime. They're all proposing the same thing, and they are still dragging their feet, acting in isolation and, you know, keeping the system a little bit

fragmented and vulnerable to cyber crime. But there are a few countries, Australia being one of them, Singapore, India, as well, actually, in this space that are taking steps to collaborate across borders and tackle these issues. And so I know that it's coming. It's not fast enough, but we're definitely seeing shifts in, like regulatory reforms, and the momentum is there. But, yeah, we're still in that early phase

where adoption hasn't really caught up with intention. So I'm really looking forward to the day that it's actually embedded and adopted and scaled globally, because, yeah, we'll really start to see the power of those innovations, right Kim? Excellent. I think we had a great podcast with Chrissy Hill on decentralized finance as well, so people can go and look up that one. Thank you. That's very interesting. And then we always like to just finish off with a book to read, something

to watch and a podcast. You recommend podcasts, I will say Risky Women. But in terms in terms of a book, I'm actually reading Mehreen Faruqi book. She's a Senator for the greens in Australia, and she's got a book, Too Migrant, Too Muslim, Too Loud, or something like that. And it's, Oh, interesting. It's so powerful. And her experiences in I guess, the federal government have been nothing short of yeah, distasteful. And just her courage to stand up and yeah, to constructively disrupt Yeah!

Is inspiring to me. And so that's what I mean. Like, I definitely surround myself with the kind of literature that aligns to, yeah, my values. And so I really recommend that everyone read that or listen to audiobook, because she narrates it. Oh, that's good as well. I love a good audio book so I can do it while I'm exercising. Great. Oh, thanks, Kim! Excellent. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you, Rhea, and I Likewise.

think you are going to have an amazing career ahead of it, and you're doing some That means the world. No, you're really doing some phenomenal things. So it was really great to speak to you, and so glad you entered the risky women, right? Competition. Me too, me too me too. Let's stay in contact. You know, we'll see you at events in Australia.

Thank you for listening to this episode of Risky Women Radio, be part of the ongoing conversation and learn more about our events and other programs at riskywomen.org