Lovers, Artists, Resisters: Claude Cahun & Marcel Moore vs the Nazis

from the nineteen twenties through World War Two. I'm so excited about this story. These are awesome people. They are so cool. Yep, not like me. I just came over here to sit down and my phone flashlight was on, and I'm like, wow, I'm an old man. Ah, you got a glimpse of your face and startled your show. Yeah it's bad. Yeah, the oldest I ever felt, I think. And I was like probably thirty two at the time,

which so you know, not that long. I don't remember where I was Starbucks or something, and a much younger girl, probably twenty or something, looked up at me and said, oh, your flashlights on in your pocket? Oh and and I pulled my phone out and sure enough, just the flashlight is beaming out of my pocket, and I was like, I felt like a ninety year old person who had never use technology before. And this whipper snapper just came up and was like, hey, do you need me to

show you how that works? Grandpa? That stings the oldest I ever felt. Well, actually I feel old kind of a lot because well, no, because I'll text with my cousin Sarah. She's she's like twelve or thirteen or something, so yeah, it at that point, I know, like she'll be on Snapchat or she'll send me a meme or something, and I'm like, oh, like, y'all just don't even care if there's really a joke, Like it's just some random

collection or some random stuff. Sometimes you know, um, dick jokes are still popular, so there's still I'm good, Like I can still hang Wait a minute, I don't know if you should be making dick jokes with your twelve year old cousin. Listen. I don't really, but she does. Yeah, I guess that's what I was doing and when I was twelve to do her parents listen to this show?

I don't I know that my aunt does, her grandma, her grandmother yeah, and sometimes Sarah will and she told me she actually was right after we came out with the raw Black Messiah episode, which was about shock pornography, so it's very very R rated episode. And she texts me and she's like, I'm listening to your show, by the way, and I was like, I hope not that this is not the episode for yikes, and she goes, no, no, no.

My grandma always tells me when I can listen. So I thank you to Aunt Shell for her gatekeeping episodes from the children. These kids these days, I know, I'm glad. I'm glad she's interested in it. And no definite times get listeners say they listen with their kids they're teenagers or something. I think that's pretty cool. I think that's great. I mean, like I curse or whatever, but it's about sex. So yeah, I think you've gotten better at the cursing.

I mean said we got worse, and I'm like, we definitely have not gotten worse, because a lot of it just comes from nervousness. I think a lot of cursing is just like I don't know what else to say, or I don't have an adjective here. I'm trying to go faster than my brain, so you kind of fill in by stuttering out. Well, I think it depends on the story too, because some make me mad, and that's when I curse. A lot them don't make me mad, So I'm like, I'm not cursing because I'm really angry.

There's no reason to curse at these two, for example, although there's plenty of reason to curse at the Nazis.

That's very true because they were dealing with that. Yeah, and yeah, I was really interested in this story because I'm not only because of who they are Claude and Marcel alone, but like usually when you're going through history and you're looking at resistance movements during World War Two against the Nazis, it's usually stuff like blowing up a train or you know, some daring spy mission or sluggling Jewish people to safety and all really cool, incredible, thrilling

stories to hear. But a lot of people's resistance during that time was very small, and so some of my personal favorite World War two stories are these tiny acts of like malicious compliance or sabotage, just little things like that that I find so human because it's just us pushing back in the tiniest, even in a way we find insignificant in the larger picture, but it makes us

feel like, Okay, I did something right. It can be really inspiring because even if it seems like this tiny little chip, you're still chipping away at a wall and eventually it falls. So today we really want to tell you about this resistance movement on the island of Jersey that made occupying Nazis believe there was this widespread conspiracy

amongst their own ranks to rebel against Hitler. But actually it was just two middle aged artists who had been rebelling in many ways for many years, long before the Nazis were ever thought of. Yes, and it's such a cool story. So let's learn about Claude Cahoun and Marcel Moore, the surrealist artists turned Nazi resistance. Let's go, hey their French. Come listen. Well, Elia and Diana got some stories to tell. There's no matchmaking or romantic tips. It's just about ridiculous relationships.

A lover might be any type of person at all, and abstract cons a Dora concrete wall. But if there's a story where the second clans ridiculous romans, a production of iHeartRadio. All right, The first thing we want to say about Claude Cahoun is that they were born Lucy Schwab in eighteen ninety four, but they were always kind

of experimenting with their own gender presentation and identity. Now, Claude did use she her pronouns in her own writing, but a lot of scholars have argued that if they had been around at that time, they would have preferred they them pronouns. You know, if those had been widely used. In our episode, we'll probably interchange she her and they

then when talking about Claude, just throwing it out there. Ye. So, Claude Cahoun was born Lucy Schwab in Nant, France to a family of wealthy Jewish intellectuals and publishers, and she had a lot of art bona fides like. Her uncle was the avant garde writer Marcel Schwab, and her great uncle was an Orientalist named David Leong Cahoun. An Orientalist was like a Western European artist who specialized in subjects from the Orient, or rather from Asia and the Middle East.

This was like a big There was a lot of Arabic art going on, a lot of Chinese Japanese art kind of being incorporated into Christern Art. It was sort of one of the first times I think we gave a shit about a culture of European culture, right right, So probably at the time it was considered kind of progressive, which is weird to think of now, obviously, since Oriental is like not a good even though they were, They're probably just going over there and be like, look at

this fascinating art. Let me take it home so everyone else can look at it too. Allow me to co opt this now. When Lucy was only four years old, her mother began suffering from mental illness pretty severely, and it wasn't long before she was put into an institution full time. So Lucy was mostly raised by her grandmother, and like early on in life, Lucy is questioning her

gender identity she's very young. She starts experimenting with different names, including Daniel Douglas after Lord Alfred Douglas past episode alert Yea. So she tried a different few different names until she settled on Claude Calhoun in nineteen fourteen. Calhoun after her great uncle David and also her grandmother who raised her, and Claude because in French, Claude could be male or female,

so they wanted kind of a non binary, gender neutral name. Yeah, Claude wrote once quote masculine, feminine, It depends on the situation. Neuter is the only gender that always suits me. And as a teenager, Claude suffered from anorexia, suicidal thoughts, and debilitating depression like her mother. That's tough. You could see wanting to kind of explore your identity a lot if you're having those sort of you know what, feel like kind of a dysmorphia, like you know, sort of like

I'm not happy with my body. Yeah, you know, what's something that what's a big thing? I can sort of question and see whether I would be happier if it was different, right, Annarexia has dysmorphia built into it, Yeah, exactly, you're not seeing yourself, yeah, the way you are. Yeah. But it also is a lot about control. So I wonder if you know, their childhood felt very out of control. Their mom is to these institutions, makes wherever their dad is,

they're going to their grandmas. So they're like, this is the one thing I can control is how much foods going into my body at any given time. Yeah. But Claude's life changed in nineteen o nine when they met Suzanne malerb and she was this seventeen year old girl. She was an art student. Her father was a doctor, and when they met, they both described it as quote

a thunderbolt meeting. I mean, just total love at first sight, just that instant the heavens collided, right, and when the dust settled, we were there together, right, just like a sense of kins incredible. One time, I just I asked my dad, like how he knew Mom was someone he wanted to go out with or whatever, and he was like, I don't know. Just when I met her, I felt like I already knew her. And I thought that was

such a cute like way to say that. And it kind of sounds like that for them, like they met each other and like you're already by person. Yeah, it already feels right. That's funny. I think when we met it was like let's see no, maybe, yeah, I hate a minute, no, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, no, it's good. Do you think that summarizes your thought process? Maybe? Well obviously yours was, Oh my god, I gotta lock this down.

There's a once in a lifetime opportunity. I was immediately in this guy not let this solid gold get away from me. That's actually true, because he would like make me cookies in the middle of the nine. I mean, there's not many guys who will do that for you, all right. So these two met thunderbolt meeting, you know,

incredible sparks flying right away. They basically immediately began both a romantic and creative partnership right there, and then by nineteen twelve, just three years later, Claude was experimenting with the portrait photography that would eventually make them notable, and they were writing poetry. By nineteen sixteen, Suzanne had established herself as a graphic artist and she was illustrating fashion

designs and publicity materials. But even this commercial work had very avant garde elements, Like in one fashion plate that she did in nineteen fifteen, she drew this woman with a boyish haircut, wearing a loose fitting blazer and flared pants. Right at the time nineteen fifteen, my twenties had not

come around yet they were not. So not only does Suzanne predict the mode Garson fashion future, an art historian, a professor, and interurs, a true Lattimer on Queer Cultural Center dot org draws our attention to the shadow in this picture. It's very obtrusive. It's kind of illogically placed. It doesn't make a lot of sense with where the light is coming from in the picture, and it even

kind of obscures the background in places. And this sort of elevated the image from you know, just your basic ass fashion advertisement into this really like more striking and surreal artistic illustration. Like it really made it special, yeah, in a way that if you look at it, And we'll post a lot of these pictures on our Instagram for this episode, so make sure you follow us there.

You know, you see this shadow and it doesn't make a lot of sense, and I'm thinking, boy, if I drew it, it would look like this because I'm bad at drawing. But she makes it very intentional and it has purpose to it. I think that's really cool and it makes you look at it just makes you want to look at because it's a little off, which is the whole point of avant garde, right, was that it was sort of just a little yeah wrong, and so

you felt like you were in a dream. Not to mention it's the whole point of advertising, right, Did that make people look at it? Yes. In nineteen seventeen, though, Claude and Susanne's relationship took a bit of a strange turn when Susanne's widowed mother married Claude's divorced father step sisters eight years after their romantic relationship. Gun So in most writing, when you look them up, they referred to as the sisters, even though their their romantic connection did

come first. You know, and you know, this seems like the most awkward thing that could possibly happen to a couple. Pretty pretty good premise for a fun rom com. Though, that's true. That's true that, like Susanne didn't know what to do. Oh, Susanne, I'm so glad your home. I've been wanting to introduce you to someone I've been seeing Cloudes father. Hell now they'll have to learn what it's like to be sisters in love. That's what it's called

sisters in love from McGee or something. Where's McGee been? I don't know, make a movie project would be into I don't know, man, I mean, it's been a long time seen since anybody's seen a McGee's joint McGee joint well, anyway, one day we'll make the Cloude Susanne McGee version of their story boring movie ever made. Hey, Warner Brothers, have we got a movie for you. It's called Sisters in Love? And they're like, wait, what they're gonna be like security?

I think like a flowers in the attic thing or what's going on? So, yeah, this seems like something that is very weird and awkward and probably not something you would want to happen now with you or a loved one. But Tursa Latimer does point out that this was probably a kind of a blessing in disguise because it allowed the two of them to live together without anyone suspecting their true relationship. Should they had like a really good cover story for why they were together all the time,

that was more acceptable than we're gay lovers together. But the thing is, this dynamic of everyone thinking of them as sisters is also part of the problem in their legacy, kind of in a way, because Suzanne, who ended up taking her own gender neutral pseudonym, Marcel Moore, is actually very often erased from conversations about Claude's photographs. Claude's art is often called self portraiture, but they likely could not have done it without Marcel's assistance, and they both wanted

us to know it turs a true. Latimer shows this example where there's a photograph and the subject is Claude as the model in the photograph, but at the bottom right hand corner you can see the shadow of Marcel's head positioned as Latimer writes, quote, where we're conditioned to look for the artist's signature, so it's almost like Marcel's

shadow is the signature, Like, I look who took this picture? Yeah, So not only does this show us that, you know, the level of importment involvement that Marcel had in the art that Claude created, but it also kind of asks us to think about the role of the viewer rather than taking on like a voyeuristic quality. We know that someone else within the world of the portrait is looking at this subject, so it's about Marcel looking at Claude rather than us looking into this picture frame right right.

And I think that's so fascinating the way they played with the gays. Yeah in gays as in gay z right, because they played with the games. But like I just read, they're uh, really they wanted to play a lot with who's looking even a lot of Claude's or Marcell's pictures where they look back at the Yeah, what they're looking

at in what angle and everything. It's all much, very much a part of the message of the art yea, and what you're supposed to be thinking about as you're looking at it, right, because you got to look at Photography is like really new at this point, and everybody is just kind of using photographs to record things that really happen, like things that are true, Like I'm snapshotting reality now you can look at at any time in

this picture. But these two are like subverting those expectations, right, not just about their gender expression, but like what photography is. They're playing with it as like an art form. You know, they're showing things that couldn't exist in reality, which is sort of what became the surrealist movement. Yeah, they're showing fantasy. Yeah,

and I think that's really interesting. Remember we talked about Henry and Caress Crosby in the past episode, and they were also around the twenties publishing work, and we're some of the first people to consider photography to be an art form. Yeah, So I think It's really interesting to think about the idea of like, oh, picture is realistic. I'm taking a picture of you, and that is exactly

how you look at this time, in this place. And there's no lie in this photo, right, And Claude and Marcel were like, but there could be a lie exact or I could show you what could be true later if I in another world, Yeah, in another time. If I have the tools of reality in my hand, why would I not tinker with it to manipulate reality? You know. That's that's like god level kind of stuff. Yeah, and it's very cool. Yeah, but we are going to share a lot of pictures. Oh, they do some really stuff.

I mean, I love surrealism, always kind of have. It's really more accurate to call these two an artistic team or collaborators, even as India Burgita Jarvis writes in her article Historical Heroines quote two halves of a whole identity. Yeah again, I think of another episode. Christo and John Claude. Christo and John Claude. Yes, two artists, yeah, right, who collaborated together. Jean Claude was extremely important to what work

was made and how it was made. But everyone calls it a Cristo A Cristo, A Cristo, and it's the very same thing Claude. It's always Claude Cahoun's work, Claude Cahoun's work, but they're like, Marcella is an essential part

of this work. I kind of want to link that episode in the show notes because if you haven't heard that Cristo episode and Jean Claude, it's so cool, incredible, and some of the resources were very interesting talking about that because they were just talking about like how art, the art world really prefers a solo genius, like this very special person who could you know only this person could be this type of person, right, instead of a

collaborative teamwork effort, which is actually harder. It's I think it's harder to marry multiple visions than to create your own all alone. Right. So in nineteen twenty Claude and Marcel left the provinces and they moved to Paris and they attended poetry reading, Russian ballets, literary salons, gallery exhibitions and theater productions with some of the weirdest and coolest artists in France. And we will hear all about it

right up to this welcome back everybody. So Claude and Marcel are in the Stick of it All in Paris in nineteen twenty, and of course they continue to produce art. Their work, of course, was often about playing with gender identity and expression. Costuming and staging were very important elements, right. Claude often has a shaved head, and they pose in a way that kind of obscures their body, so that makes them appear to be genderless. Okay, sometimes they look

like both genders. Sometimes they're very lean, very hard into masculinity, sometimes very hard into femininities. They are constantly playing. In one portrait, Claude wears like heavyweight boxing shorts and they hold weights like they're a heavyweight boxer. But they also have pasties on their nipples and these painted on kind of cupid's bow lips and spit curls to emphasize their femininity. And the picture is captioned don't kiss me, I'm in training.

Love it, I know, right, so cool, and Latimer says this kind of go ahead. No, I'm just laughing at that. I know, a lot of the captions are so witty and cute, like don't kiss me, I'm in training. So good, Yes, she has another one where they have another one where it's but it's them. It's two of their own heads like it's a photo collage kind of thing, and one of their heads is sort of looking at the other one with this kind of weird face on, and the

caption is what do you want from me? Which I love too because how often are you saying to yourself like, what do you? What do you want? Because you're making no sense? Yes, also, I mean you just don't kiss me. I'm in training. It says so much too, because it's also saying I can't do. I need to give you a reason, yea, not to just walk up and kiss me. Fine, I'm training for boxing. Right now, I'll punch you in

the kisser literally right. And actually that's something turns the true Latimer is talking about in their article acting Out, and she says this kind of invites us to question what Claude is in training for exactly, like training to be a boxer, or a training to learn to be a woman or to unlearn being a woman, or how to be a lesbian or you know what are they in training for? Just training for life? Like you don't interrupt me, get out of my way. Who knows. So

it's just lets you ask a lot of questions. And Latimer points out, you know that at this period of time, quote theories emphasizing the role of social conditioning in the production of gender, we're coming into circulation at this time. Also in nineteen twenty nine, Claude translated the writing of Havelock Ellis into French. Have Luck. Ellis was a doctor who studied human sexuality, and he had very controversial theories about a third sex that united female and male traits,

but we're neither. He's like very early on, like Magnus Hirshfield, one of these early sex scientists who's like trying to understand instead of condemn. And that's in a I feel like probably several non Western cultures especially, that's common exactly. Yeah, And I mean you know, there you go. This is this is such a cool thing about history. It does not happen in a vacuum. Yeah, you have Orientalism, for

lack of a better phrase, right coming into vogue. Right, So Eastern culture is a much more interesting to people. They're looking into it. They must have seen stuff about oh this third sex, Yeah, what is that? How? You know? Kind of opening up your mind a little bit. I mean maybe that had something to do with that, especially for people who are probably like like, oh wow, this very rigid, stiff, stuffy way of life I've been living

isn't fulfilling me. I feel kind of bored and constrained. Yeah, right, when I'm alive in the physical universe and it feels like it should be more exciting than this for real. Yeah. And also data is painter Marcel Duchamp even like unveiled a female alter ego of his that he named Rose Selviny.

But as the art story dot org points out, unlike Duchamp, Claude Marcel's gender neutral pseudonyms and their artwork and everything, we're quote not about changing gender but about escaping such oppositional, constructed ties altogether. Ah. Yes, so very much non binary life before that was even a fully understood, right idea. Right,

I've always found that very interesting. The idea of kind of gender bending in some ways, in some fashion also still reinforces the idea that a gender is supposed to be something, or look like something, or wear something, you know. And the more we sort of break it down and say, look, you know, if I wear a skirt, I'm not dressing like a woman, right, you know that's probably something that should change, tying particular looks or names or whatever to

one gender or the other. Right, And how much have we talked in the past about like you wore a man's clothes, you were a man like. People literally could not grasp that you had a different body under the right. Right. Other portraits that these two created together, some of them have Claude sort of as a like a character of an aviator or a dandy, a doll, bodybuilder, vampire, or

an angel Buddha in one of them. There's one where it's a Japanese puppet, and the Museum of Modern Art website says that Claude once explained, quote under this mask another mask, I will never finish removing all of these faces. I love it. Yes, so interesting. It's like I'm not you know, hoops amongst us is one thing, right? And if you take this off of me, this there's something else in there? And can you ever find right the one true face? Right? Is there only one? Probably not?

Why would you want one? Right? Again? Like we're here for X number of you know, years, If we're lucky in a goofy ass mess of protons, neutrons and electrons that all grouped together to make this thing. And why are we deciding what that needs to mean? You know, what it has to be in relation to each other and stuff like that. Yeah, and like limiting. Yeah, so much of what we can experience, our feel, or enjoy.

While Claude and Marcel were in Paris, the Surrealist movement began, and this was headed up by Andre Breton, who they did make friends with, even though this guy, if you don't know him, he was a homophobe and a misogynist. Yeah. In fact, the whole surrealist movement was kind of homophobic and misogynist. Yeah, Louise Downey writes, and Heritage Magazine quote it was a very much male dominated group, led by the function and image of women in surrealist art was

often the role of muse child or femme fatale. Women were treated as objects to inspire male genius. Their bodies were for use as esthetic objects and for male desire. But in Claude's photographs, as Moment explains, they quote staged images of themselves that challenge the idea of static gender, right, and maybe that's why Breton never really liked Claude, right, he didn't like their weird outfits, he hated their same

sex relationship. But they were so damn good. They were so brilliant and coming up with this like just unthought of techniques and compositions. Even he had to put some respect on their name. He once said that Claude was quote one of the most curious spirits of our time, which I love is a compliment and also not a compliment at the same time. He's just like, that's a

weirdo over there. And yeah, even though they were never like quote unquote official members of the surrealist movement, which how do you know, Well, it was a card, but it was printed on an orange peel. Oh okay, yeah makes perfect, Yeah surrealist sence. Right. Um, so yeah, they were never like a fish on the orange polist or whatever, but it should be noted that they were both at

the forefront of that esthetic. Yeah. In the mid nineteen twenties, a publisher asked Claude to write basically an autobiography, what the publisher called a confessional, and Claude was real reluctant because you know, they're kind of like under this face another face. How could I ever explain to you. Sure, I could never get it down to just fact quote

unquote fact. There's no such thing as fact. In my opinions, I am Claude, I am an artist, and I am a rhinoceros, and I am a liquid puddle on the ground. That's right, I meant much right. So then two years later, in nineteen twenty eight, Claude handed this publisher friend a manuscript of their book, Avoul non Avenue, which is translated in different places as disavowed confessions, canceled confessions, disavowals, or

simply denials. Okay, now, Latimer calls it a quote anti realist, indeed surrealistic critique of autobiography because it's both confession and denial at the same time. Okay, sounds like the weird Ol movie, right it right? Like Claude probably would have fucking loved the weird Al movie. Let's be real plots like you write your own story baby. In the introduction, Claude writes, quote, until I see everything clearly, I want

to hunt myself down, struggle with myself. I think it describes their art a lot too, because again, it's a lot of exploring who they are and what they could be sure thing. So that publisher friend did decline the man your script and they were like, this is a little far out for me. But it was published by the anti Nazi publishing house care it For in nineteen thirty.

And since we don't have a full poem by Claude to share with you, we're going to share some of what they wrote in this collection of quote poem essays or essay poems. So let's go down to poetry essay a corner and hear a few excerpts from Avoux non Avenue by Claude Cahun. I welcomed young monsters into myself and nurtured them, but the makeup I had used seemed indelible. I rubbed so hard to remove it that I took off all the skin, and my soul like a flayed face, naked,

no longer had a human form. Surely you are not claiming to be more homosexual than I. Yes, permit me to warn reckless young women seeing the trap doesn't prevent you from getting caught in it, and that doubles the pleasure. What does a well behave child dream about, apart from the inhumane, the monstrous, the impossible, the ordinary. Oh, may the birds not expect any speeches about aviation from me. Oh my god boy, we need that quote. I want

that written in the sky. That is like everyone, I was like, that's the most poetic way to say, stay in your laying. You know what. I'm not gonna go give the birds a monologue about flying, which I love because surely they're like, stop telling me what a woman is. Yeah, stop telling me what a man is. I'm a human being and I know what it is. Yeah, I'll tell you. You know, I just think that's true. Don't tell me about my own life. So good, angels with patched wings, sales, flirtations,

less midden modesties. Let's use up heaven down to the dregs, the verb, down to the insult, the espadrilla, and the liar, down to the last string. I am ambiguous to you, nuther. You can neither make head nor tails of me. I provoke your metoxinphobia, your fear of the in between. I challenge you to a dual gaze. Who looks away first loses. Oh that's so good. The duel gays look, We're both going to look at each other. Can you handle it?

Because I can handle it, that's right, and she I mean they do spell it duel yeah, d u e L. So not just duel d u a L two gays, but rather I'm challenging. I love it brilliant. Now, besides writing this surrealist, you know, anti biography, Claude and Marcel made their mark in other ways on the overall surrealist movement. In one of their photos of Claude and Trafalgar Square with this flower arrangement obscuring their heads surrounded by birds,

It's been reprinted in several books about surrealism. I took a look. I've definitely seen this before. You probably have two very cool, very surreal, very much looks like a dream. And in addition, according to Terza Latimer, Claude not only quote signed but helped compose many of the political tracks generated by Breton and his porters during the nineteen thirties. Right, and this wasn't I didn't want to get too much

into this, but it's another interesting parallel to today. Yeah, in a way was that Claude was like, my life is already politicized. High identity is politicized. Right, I'm Jewish in the thirties, so beyond any sexuality, gender identity, anything.

My very existence is being politically debated. Yeah. Now, Claude and Marcel were also creating puppets and like and surrealist photos that involved these puppets that quote negotiated between the theater of political opposition and the theater of dreams, the psyche and the revolution, the two polls, in other words,

of surrealist practice. One of their puppets, for example, was of I'd like this Nazi soldier, but it was created from the pages of a communist newspaper, and this was meant to show the quote merger of two totalitarian schools of thought, that of Hitler and that of Stalin m oh They almost formed the same kind of murder machine.

And it was basically this schism that spelled the end of the surrealist movement in nineteen thirty five, because many of the artists joined the French Communist Party at the expense of their surrealist activities. But Claude and Marcel, along with Andre Breton, kind of rejected the idea that communism was the only answer to rising fascism. It was people being like, how do we really fix this Hitler problem?

I know, we'll do it in the political arena, and they felt that art again was political and could play its part. Yeah. In an essay that Claude wrote called bets Are on the Art story dot Org writes that Claude quote promotes a type of art that uses poetry rather than propaganda to spread its message through indirect action, as they called it, and Breton loved this. I think it was after they wrote this that Breton was like, I guess you're all right. You're a curious spirit there.

So yeah, even again, just to say, even though their names are not in the list of historic surrealists, they did help create that movement. They were fully part of founding that. It's got to be interesting too to kind of ally with someone like Breton. It's like homophobe and chauvinists against rising fascism, right, which is like a lot

of their whole platform too. I know, so you're really I mean, you know, strange bedfellows, which, of course Breton would say, no strange bedfellows, I know, right, I only want predictable bedfellows, or I'll take strange bed ladies. Yeah, but no bed fellows for me. So Claude and Marcel spent seventeen years in Paris. They made poetry, essays, articles, sculptures,

photo montages, portraits, collages, theatrical productions. They founded this certain you know, they helped found the surrealist movement, and they got involved in politics. And the body of work that they created in that time is enough to make an episode about that, enough to give them a place in history. But their greatest project was yet to come, and we would get to that right after these words welcome back.

So in nineteen thirty five, Claude co founded a group protesting the rise of Hitler and the spread of fascism. But Paris was becoming kind of an uncomfortable place to be Jewish, like so many places at that time. So in nineteen thirty seven they chose to move to the island of Jersey. Yeah, they had spent a lot of childhood vacations there. They were highly familiar with the Island of Jersey. They were into it. They were like, let's

go where we were happy. They were like, you know, Jay, z Ali, Jay, let's go to the Jersey shoe a baby. But after France felt the Nazis in nineteen forty, Jersey and Guernsey were occupied by the Nazis. That was the closest the Nazis ever got to actually getting into England. Most people left these islands as quickly as they could, but Claude and Marcel decided they weren't going nowhere. They said, well, we'll art our way out of this. I'm old, I'm

sick of moving. Yeah. It's like those people that stay at the foot of the volcano and you're like it's erupting tomorrow and they're like, yeah, but I'm still working on that wicker furniture outside. I'm going nowhere. The art story dot Org says quote. At this time, Cahoun and Moore started to use their original names again, and they became known as Les Madame to the other local inhabitants of Jersey, and they gained a reputation for strange behaviors, such as taking their cat for a walk on a

leash and wearing trousers. What so everyone in Jerseys just like, oh, these two ladies over here, they're walking there cats, Lucy and Suzanne. They're always wearing pants. You know what. They're clearly old and kooky. This is how we all talk in Jersey. What I love about that is that they clearly were like, you know, trying to be a little dl They're like, we'll be Lucy and Suzanne. Yeah, you know, we'll try to look like sisters. You know, we're not

gonna parade our relationship around. It's kind of dangerous. But they also were like, and also, we're still weird and we're not going to conform. Yeah, completely, So I kind of love that they sort of found like a line to walk. I guess there's nothing no character I like better than a than a kook in their fifties, you know,

just total unconventional weirdo out there living life. They're like, I've done the thing for too long and now I'm gonna be myself, right, you know, I think we should all aspire that if not younger, these two would also sunbathe naked together. It likely not anywhere where people could see them, right, you know, most people just assumed that they were a couple of weirdo spinster sisters. And of

course this was a really good cover for them. That's right, because their biggest project during the Nazi occupation was resistant Yes, putting their political, artistic and writing abilities to work, they launched an anti Nazi propaganda campaign that reached every corner of the islands. That indirect action that Claude had a

spouse in bets are on sure. Jeffrey H. Jackson, a history professor, wrote the definitive biography of this particular part of their lives in his book Paper Bullets, which I love. The idea of paper bullet so cool. He says, it all started when the two of them found a photo in a German magazine of a marching regiment of soldiers. And of course this is a German magazine. It's supposed to make them look really badass and cool in their

winning and everything's going great. But the two were struck by the fact that the top of the photo featured the soldier's arms swinging, that it had a sense of action in progress, but the bottom featured their mud covered boots, and econom made them look, as Claude wrote in a letter quote, as though they were stuck in mud. So Claude and Marcel ripped the picture in half. They just kept a part of the boots looking like they were

stuck in mud. Right, They wrote own end or without end in German cross it sorry if I pronounced that wrong, And then they removed this beloved picture they had of Oscar Wilde and Lord Alfred Douglas from a beautiful frame they had, and they replaced it with these endlessly marching, mud covered Nazis in this like beautiful frame. Then they snuck into this abandoned house that was about to become soldiers quarters, and they hung the picture on a wall right where the sun would hit it and make it

impossible to ignore. Yes, Jackson writes in Paper Bullets quote. The soldiers might not immediately see the image, but when they did, each would likely think that perhaps one of the other men had hung it. Such a thought might so confusion and mistrust in their ranks. Yes, and Claude and Marcel hoped the men would start thinking that Hitler's war might never end. Oh I love that. Yeah, you know, some soldier sees these boots and it's like you'll know now is if I think about it? Are we going

to be doing this forever? Now? This was just the beginning for Claude and Marcel. These artists would listen to the BBC, which was illegal to do, right, and they would translate what was said into German, which Marcel was fluent in. Although obviously the Nazi occupiers didn't know that she was. They would type up or write the words on small pieces of tissue paper and they would sign

them the Soldier with no name as an example. One famous message was a drawing of a Nazi soldier on a sinking ship called the ss Reich, sporting a Swastika flag and clearly like waving his arms desperately in the air hoping to be rescued. Means most of the messages that Claude put out would urge the troops to mutiny

and shoot their officers. And then Claude and Marcel would get dressed up and attend German military events and this all out of the to kind of slide up to soldiers and slip these little pamphlets into their pockets or like put them on their chairs they were there when they came to sit back down. Usually Marcell was one doing this, and I just can't imagine the danger. No, they were putting themselves in to do this. It's incredible. It's so funny too, to like pickpocket, but you're adding

a plick pocket. Yeah they're a click pocket. But yeah, apparently Marcell took the greatest risk. Yeah, so that's cool too. Again, Marcell doesn't get as much attention as Claude, but Marcelle's balls of steel. I mean this time as somebody who's sliding an illegal pamphlet saying please shoot your officer into some guy's pocket. I'm hoping he don't notice. That's I mean, you know, I would get scared passing a note to

my friend in the back of French class. It just said like, you know, farts with a little picture of a cloud on it, and we'd like giggle and stuff, and that's the scariest thing in the world. Would be someone to say, Eli, what was on that note? Elena, share with the class? But scary, Oh my god, so scary. Other times they would hide messages inside the cover of a cigarette box and be like, oh, you left your smokes over here. Um. Sometimes they would hide these messages

in the pages of German language magazines. Sometimes they'd even just crumple them up on a piece of paper and throw them through the windows of cars, right of like German officers cars. One of the biggest pranks is when they hung a banner in a church that said quote, Jesus is great, but Hitler is greater because Jesus died for people but people die for Hitler. WHOA wow, that is like, oh my god, that's the most ice called burn. I totally roasted, totally roasted. And they hung a banner.

I know, right. That takes a second. That's not like slipping something into someone's pocket. That ain't no quick thing. You gotta first show up with a all right, and then the pastor has to be like, sure you need some thumbtachs or like what do you need? Did anyone see anyone walk through these doors with a giant banner

into hands? Not? I. This is another cool thing and kind of frustrating thing as person knew likes history about pockets of resistance to the Nazis is that even after the Nazis were gone, people still didn't talk about it. You know, they were like, it still could put you in danger. Yeah, some people are still alive. They still have feelings about what happened or whatever. And I need to keep this to myself. There's plenty of things that we're never going to know anything about that people did.

And so I imagine they show up at this church, somebody looked the other way to let them hang that up. Yeah, exactly. Now, for four years Claude and Marcel did this incredible four years. They got away with this and it drove the Nazis crazy. The best thing to do. I know, I'm incredible. These guys were convinced that there was some widespread conspiracy within their ranks. So there was this large scale resistance movement

going on right under their noses. And it was like, oh, we're making them so crazy that they couldn't figure out who it was. But then in nineteen forty four, the woman who sold Claude and Marcel the tissue paper that they used to write these messages on informed on them, and Claude and Marcel were arrested for treason. They were both subjected to quote arduous interrogation, as Latimer calls it,

because they would not reveal the names of their collaborators. Wow, and that's because the Nazis were convinced that some men must be involved. These are two fifty something women. I mean, what can you do the way you're doing this by yourself, Just just a couple of old ladies, still not capable of anything but being grandmothers, on baking cookies, on having some cat Now tell me the name of the man who masterminded this entire amazing resistance movement photographs pants. Some

man gave you his pants. As Claude Calhoun put it, quote, they were forced at the end of the day to condemn us without believing in our existence. Wow. So Claude and Marcel were charged with listening to the radio and inciting the troops to rebellion, and the first charge had a sentence of six years in prison. The second charge had a death sentence, and apparently after she heard this, Claude stood up in the courtroom and asked the judge

which sentence would be served first. Incredible. She also apparently said that she would have to be shot twice, once for being a resistor and once for being Jewish, and all this witch got a big laugh in the courtroom. No one could deny that she was funny. The prosecuting Nazi officer probably took off his hat and punched a whole right. Oh, heat one's a funny, I wasn't me. So Claude and Marcel were thrown into separate prison cells, and this was the first time since they met that

they would ever live apart. It's unclear from records whether their death sentences were commuted or if the Nazis just ran out of time because the island of Jersey and our heroines were both liberated when the Allies showed up in nineteen forty five. But by then their house had already been requisitioned by the Nazis, so of course most of the art inside was destroyed, including artwork by Max

Ernst and Joan Merrow. But sadly prison was really detrimental to Claude's health, which had never been great to begin with. But you know, we can imagine how terribly they were treated in jail, considering that they were Jewish and a lesbian and a resistor, which is like the trifecta of Nazi hatred right right that they died in nineteen fifty

four at the age of sixty. Cell relocated to a smaller house and there's literally absolutely just nothing recorded about her until nineteen seventy two, and she died by suicide and she's buried next to Claude in Saint Crolaid's Church in Jersey. Claude and Marcell's life and legacy were pretty much lost to history until the nineteen nineties, when Francois

le Pelier published the biography Claude Cahoun Masks and metamorphoses. Then, in two thousand and seven, none other than David Bowie, who is of course another appreciator of playing with gender expression and presentation, curated an exhibit of Claude Cahoun's work for the New York Highline Festival. Claude and Marcell's radical exploration and challenging of femininity, gender, beauty, social and economic boundaries. Everything that they had encompassed in their work had finally

been unearthed and given new appreciation. In twenty eighteen, a street in France, near where they had lived in Montparnasse, was named for them, and that same year Christian Dior unveiled an entire androgynous fashion line inspired by Claude Cahoun. Amazing. They also got like a Google doodle and stuff, So just really recently, you know, a lot of interest around

their work. At these two were obviously incredible artists. They refused to be defined by anything, not their time, their gender, society, their government, not even their work. To find them, they were constantly experimenting, like constantly playing, like we said, just manipulating reality in every way that they could. And their commitment to one another is equally Amazing India. Brigitte Jarvis in that article Historical Heroines wrote, quote from nineteen oh

eight to Cahoun's death in nineteen fifty four. They lived together first and then in Paris then Jersey, created and published together, walked their cats on leashes together, sun bathed naked together, resisted Nazi occupation together, were arrested together, and sentenced to death together. So really, you know, a total twin flame kind of situation. Yeah, Like once they were like this is it? That was it? Like they were

inextricably linked. I mean, they were so ahead of their time that even now, like a hundred years later, their work is still a revelation. Yeah, they're still saying things that are fresh and weird and new. Yeah. But something I love about them too is that they always appreciated that the gaze of the viewer or the participation of the reader was essential to the work, which is something that I really love about theater and performance in general.

I feel like theater without an audience is a rehearsal. Right, It's not done until it's put in front of someone and you get to have that energy come back to you. You know. That's just something I find so powerful about it. So, to use Claude's own words, quote, if the adventuress has managed to get rid of the whole paraphernalia of facts, has made herself invisible man and invisible woman, it's due

to the indispensable collaboration of the reader. I love that because I think you and I have talked to about when you take in art or watch a movie or something, the way you're watching it really matters, Yes, the mood you're in, if you're willing to go along with it or not. It changes if you like it. Yeah, So you have to collaborate in the work that you take in and consume the collaboration of the observer of a piece of art. I just love looking at that because

it affects the art. It is what the art is in many cases about is the impact that it has, right, And I like being an observer, like participating in that respect. Yeah. And there's so many times when I'm like, I just I wasn't in the mood for this. Yeah, So I can't tell you if it was good or bad objectively or even subjectively. I was not willing to receive it. Yeah, So I you know, maybe one day when I am I kind of felt that we watched Huby Halloween Adam

Sandler and Halloween movie. Wow, what a thing to compare to Claude and Martian. No, I don't even like it that much, but I just remember we put it on and I was like, Okay, it's an Adam stand like I'm in the movie, you know, I'm I've got my headspace together for an Adam Sandler movie. I am fine with whatever dumb shit he wants to do. And it was more enjoyable period than when I But you sit there and watch with your arms folded and you're like ready to hate it. You're not gonna like it, even

if it is very good. Meanwhile, what's funny to me is that I grew up appreciating Adam Sandler more than you did, and I couldn't. I couldn't get myself in that space for Hubie Halloween. That was one where I was like, I don't care how much I prepared myself for what I was about to get. I was bothered every second fear. It was a kind of an annoying movie.

But I just remember that was just a moment when it felt really clear to me, and it's like, oh, you were willing to receive this movie and the spirit that it was given to you, and it made you enjoy it more. Yeah, I've had moods. I was here. Here's a story I was in while we're talking about bad movies. I was coming out of a phase of depression that I ad in my twenties and really had

had a particularly bad day. And not because of this, but just circumstantially, my dad and I had decided to go see a movie that day, and I was like struggling to get myself out of the house, but just you know, we went. We decided to go. We saw Wanted right with James McAvoy and Angelina Jolie Right and the bullet bending. Yeah, And as I watched that movie and just kind of climbed out of the funk that I was in. I walked out of that movie and was like, this is one of my favorite movies. I

loved it, I had. I felt so much better walking out of it than I did going into it. And so for a while I was telling people, I'll tell you what, guys, I really liked Wanted, to the point that when we had a friend group movie night going and it was my turn to pick. I said, hey, everybody, let's watch Wanted. And it was one of the most uncomfortable movie view experiences I've had, because from minute ten onwards you could tell everybody else in the room was

hating it. And I didn't even care for it that much when watched it again, and I think I had prefaced it with like, I saw this in a bad mood and it made me feel better. So I don't know if it's really good. I just I liked it, and I didn't really like it very much the second time. But but talk about your headspace and your experience affecting you how you felt about a work of art, right, Yeah, absolutely, it is big of a stretch as it maybe to call Wanted a work of art, right, you know what

I mean? Yeah, you know what I mean. But yeah, I think I had that too with like some friends of mine when I worked at the restaurant, I didn't go to too many like arts events, and I remember kind of asking why and they'd be like, well, I just feel like I don't get it or I don't how to act. And I was like, but you don't have to get it. I mean, you don't have to like it. You're not no one. I mean, the artist of course would prefer it, I'm sure, but you don't

actually have to like it. Any way that you feel about it is fine. Yeah, And I think if you go into an art, any art thing, period, even if it's wanted or whatever, it is thinking it's okay, however I feel about this, but I'm ready to like it. I'm ready to receive it. First of all, it makes it more enjoyable. Even if you don't end up liking the art itself, the experience is more and you don't

have to feel shamed like you don't. You don't need to feel like out of the loop with the art world or some shit like I don't really have a lot of patience with that. So I remember we went to something and I was like, they were like laughing at times that I thought were inappropriate during this performance, and I remember I kind of frowned at one of them. They're like, oh, you know, and I saw the shame. It was that sense of like, oh, this is not my world. I'm a guest here and I shouldn't be

acting like this. And I felt ashamed because I was like, you just made them dislike this more. You made them feel alienated from this experience, like they were not allowed to be here, and I went I was like, I'm so sorry I did that. If you want to laugh, laugh, it's it's not up to me to decide when you should laugh. If you feel uncomfortable, that is a human response, right. If you think it's funny, that's a human response. That's fair when you put art out there, that's what you're

asking for, is a human response. Of course, there are ways to be disrespectful during a performance, but you know that's not what they were. They weren't being disruptive. They were really just reacting. Yeah, and you know, so you can tell the difference. There's a line, for sure, but but yeah, so I just remember just having that was such a like a thunderbolt moment for me, I guess as kind of feeling like, oh, you know, this is

what makes people feel like they can't participate in this world. Yeah, so I want to get back to their resistance too, because I was so struck by. As we're reading through this, I'm thinking it's important to be reminded that this kind of stuff works, right, because I think it's so easy to say, oh, you know, a little piece of art is irrelevant. It's it's a drop in the bucket. It's

it's throwing a pebble at a giant. You know, Oh, that's cute that you made your little art as a resistance piece or something, but what are you actually doing. If you're not out there using your hands and getting stuff done, it doesn't matter. But it does. It matters so much. It's it's like really effective. And like you said, it's chipping away at the wall and little chips matter.

And you know, everybody's looking at all the men and the elves and the dwarves and they're big, powerful weapons and stuff, and they're not paying attention to the Hobbits, so they're ring to Mount Doom. It's so easy to dismiss that stuff as fantasy and inspirational story and oh that's cute, but what's it actually doing? And then to see a story where it it mattered. You know, they

had an impact. I don't know that they brought down the Nazis by themselves, but think what all those soldiers on that island might have been accomplishing if they weren't worried about where's this resistance movement they're hiding right beneath us. They must have spent some time or resources. You're trying to find the men that they were so sure, yep, we're in charge of this, and they must have been

question shing each other. Yeah. That's the other thing is they're so right that it doesn't take that much to just make the distrust matters. Like army, you know, a troop morale is really important. And it sounds like, oh, you know, give them some chocolate, what's the big deal, But it like makes them able to fight, you know, like, and they were keeping that from happening, Like, yeah, it's

it's it is often seen. I feel like, is a way that oh, you made yourself feel better because you did a little something and it's not really going to accomplish anything, but you feel like you did something. Absolutely it does. But but yeah, I think and also is that a bad thing for me to if that's all I can control is how I feel. I made myself

feel like I did something. Maybe you don't find it as useful as other things I could do, but you don't know my situation that I'm capable of or what I'm able to do in my space where I am at. So I love that they kind of straight up found. They were like, do what you can with what you have where you are, And so they said, we got these soldiers, we got our skills, how can we shake

this tree? Yeah, and I bet there were some soldiers that did definitely leave, I mean, or try, you know, or at least want to, and had had questions that they didn't have before. You put any group of people together, right, whether it's just ten dudes or or a whole battalion or whatever, and there's drama and there's trust issues and there's people trying out maneuver each other and all this stuff. It's not hard to poke and prod and cause a bunch of strife within any group of people, you know.

Take it from me. I was in a theater company. So I love those kinds of movements because they're they're so effective. And I'll tell you what bad people are doing that they know that to be true, So you got to you gotta do it back, that's right. I just think this is such a cool story. I love Claude and Marcel, so I hope that you love their story as much as I did. Claude Cahoun and Marcel or please look them up so you can see some other work. As Eli said, we will be posting a

lot of pictures on our Instagram. Please look it up and let us know what you thought. Our email is ridic Romance at gmail dot com. That's right. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at o Greate, It's Eli, I'm at Cyanamite Boom, and the show is at riddic Romance and ron TikTok at Ridiculous Romance as well. It's right. Follow along. Make sure you catch us the next episode and we will see it in love you Bye bye, so long friends, it's time to go. Thanks

for listening to our show. Tell your friend's name's uncle's indan to listen to our show, Ridiculous Roll Dance