Hans Christian Andersen Bugs The Dickens out of Charles

Charles Dickens, Right, Christmas Carol, lovely little story. I don't know if you've heard of it, probably not familiar, but it's actually a ghost story immortalized by the muppets. I can't wait to watch. That's so good. It's a classic Christmas Eve movie. It's also one of the best movies ever made ever. So it's just that. Don't at me. But there is so much story to tell here today,

so I say we get right into it. Because last time we learned about Hans Christian Anderson, the lifelong Virgin, who, in his heartbreak, wrote some of the most classic stories of all time. You know them, The Ugly Duck laying, the snow Queen, the Princess and the Pea, The Jerich Who Didn't Love Me Back, also known as the Little

Mermaid um But. One of the most famous stories about Hans Christian Anderson is from the summer of eighteen fifty seven, when he spent five long weeks with England's most beloved author, Charles Dickens. And of course Hans was obsessed with him, you know Hans. But like the other objects of Hans Christian Anderson's desire, Dickens thought that this guy was maybe

a bit too much. So let's hear about how Hans inserted himself into Charles's life, the extremely British drama that he was butting in on, and the scroogey reaction he got in response, Let's do it, hey French, come listen well, Elia and Diana gots joys to tell there's no matchmaking, all romantic tips. It's just about ridiculous relationship a lover. It might be any type of person at all, and

abstract concept for a concrete wall. But if there's a story with the second glance ridiculous role that a production of I Heart Radio, I do want to throw out that this episode was suggested to us by Arvid Gomez on Instagram at Kiss a Kissmas also had the distinction of being um the very first person to ever email

us started the show. Thank you breaking that. Seal Rvid wrote, I had a small suggestion for an episode Hans Christian Anderson, the Danish author who terrorized Charles Dickens for weeks when

he invited himself in. He had a very different view of love and sexuality too, which might be more the point of your podcast really, and of course that has been the point of this episode, as we've learned about Hans Christian Anderson now moving into two episodes, maybe even three, just so much to say about Hans and his feelings on love and sex and romance and all this stuff. So thank you so much for sending this in. Yes,

a great suggestion. Yeah, we also have a listener named Lundy Jensen or at Randysens, who specifically asked for Dutch accents on our Instagram post about our last Hans Anderson started listening, it was like, I can't wait to hear your Dutch accents, and we decidedly did not do them in the last time because that is not an accent I'm familiar with. But now fine, we're doing you can thank, Yeah, you can thank, which is I just learned this her

in in Dutch. So there we go in Dutch, in Danish, in Dutch, Dutchess, the language Danish, the people and they all right. There is so much more to say about Christian Anderson and his love life. In fact, he had many non lovers, amazing people, and we're just gonna have to bring you that next week. But right now we got to get into the reason for the season here and why the Hans Christian Anderson story fell into our

lap for Christmas. In June of Anderson went to England for the first time, and while he was attending an aristocratic party there, he met the author Charles Dickens. Anderson was not at this point well known in England yet because his stories were only just being translated into English for the first time, so nobody there had really heard much about him. But Dickens, on the other hand, was

at the height of his career. A Christmas Carol, Oliver Twist and Nicholas Nickleby had all been published already, and he was about to start releasing David Copperfield as a serial. Anderson called Dickens quote England's now living writer whom I do love the moment, and they had a brief and

respectful conversation. At this part, um Anderson barely knew any English, but they were both known for writing depictions of poor, underclass people who were hit hard by the Industrial Revolution, so they had plenty to sort of talk about mid things. Try real hard, but you know, old Hans Christian Anderson. He gets intense fast after this meeting with Dickens. He immediately runs back to his place and he writes a let her home to his friends, and he's like, oh,

my god, adjustment. Charles Dickens. He's like everything I ever could have dreamed of. He's perfect, he's amazing, he's everything. I love this guy. And Charles Dickens, I mean, he must have thought that Anderson was a pretty nice guy too, because a few weeks after Anderson got home, Charles sent him a package of some of his books and a little personal note, which Anderson probably immediately like ran and hung this note up on the inside of his locker, but he could see it every time he went to

school and opened the door. Oh my friend, Charles Dickens, my best friend in the world. We're nailing it. So Anderson, of course like very giddy, very childish person as we've learned through the last episode. But Charles Dickens, in contrast, this guy is like Mr Cool. He's super dushing, and he's a bit colorful, and let's not forget that he

is very very British, extra British. Michelle Dean writes on the Rumpus dot net that after nearly ten years of Anderson writing letters to Dickens all the time like they were now best friends in the whole wide world, quote, Dickens embraced the British tradition of passive aggression and sent what appears to have been a disingenuous invitation to Anderson to come and stay with him, sort of a letter of like a hello, if you're ever in the area,

please stop by. I would love to see you. But Dean writes that while some say this letter was written affectionately, it quote was written with the kind of flourish that signals in since Sarah a tea, okay, so just some of that more British, like I'm telling you to come, I'd love to see you, but we know that doesn't mean come see me, right, A little bit of a hint,

hint or just formality right, not sincere. I'm thinking about this lady who went to Iceland, and she was like, by the way, if you're American and you're in Iceland, don't say what we say, which is like, hey, we should hang out sometime or see you soon, or like one of those little things that we just say on top hint because they immediately go okay when yeah, oh oh, do you want to hang out again? Okay, how about tomorrow?

I have some time? And you're like, oh shoot, I was just trying to be polite right now, I got a house guest. How are you today? Oh? Well, I stopped my tod this morning, and the first time I'll ever see my mother since the day since the day she left me when I was five years old, is tomorrow. And I'm a little nervous about it. And You're like, oh my god, I just meant how you're doing it, didn't really mean say good how and you So just a lot of cultural differences in the communication style there.

But question, based on everything that we've learned over the past hour or so about Hans Christian Anderson, do you think that he picked up on the social cues and of course he did not. He took this letter completely seriously and he was so excited that he didn't even know how to respond. So instead of just writing back and being like, yes, I'd love to come, Anderson announced to the press that he would be traveling back to London. And by now he had become very well known across

all across Europe, so this was like big news. Then he wrote to Dickens and said, I mean, I only want to come if you'll really want me to come. I will come, but only if you want me to And once again the British took over in Dickens and he wrote back, probably through gritted teeth, Oh, just of course I do. Nothing would make me happy. Uh do you soon? I guess. So. When Anderson showed up in England for his infamous eighteen fifty seven trip, he didn't

really get much of a welcome. There wasn't even a carriage waiting for him at the station in Kent. He had to pay somebody to help him carry his bags and walked to Dickenson's estate, Gad's Hill. Now his first night there, Anderson found his room extremely cold, and in the morning he was offended to find no servant on staff to offer him a shave, which he explained was a common Danish custom, like, if I'm staying at your house, you have someone there to shave me in the morning.

So instead, Anderson sent off for Charles Dickens's eldest son to come do it, which, of course, you know, the eldest son of famous author Charles Dickens. Being told come shave your house guest is like, I'm sorry. The hell do you want me to do? Is this? After that, Dickens, of course, finding this extremely strange, booked Anderson a daily appointment in town with a bar burr. This is where we go. So yes, right now. Charles Dickens, for his part,

he was really going through it at the time. Actually, a friend of his had just died, and Dickens had promised this guy on his deathbed that he would help out his wife and children, and so as a benefit for them, he started producing several performances of his friend Wilkie Collins play The Frozen Deep, and Dickens and his

daughters would act in this performance. Now at the premiere in the audience was Queen Victoria, the Prince of Prussia, the King of Belgium, and a gangly, awkward fifty two year old Gidey children's author who had basically invited himself over and during the premiere, Anderson, during Charles dickens death scene,

burst into tears. He just started bawling in the center of the audience, which, of course, to all the royal British folks around, was just extremely awkward and uncouth, too much emotional express a sales Mr Anderson, I feel like as Dickens, I'd be like, I must be acting this ship. See this guy is upset. I think more he's just concerned. It's like, you're embarrassing me in front of Shut your mouth, Anderson. It's not literally not a worse person. You can be

embarrassing me in front of Now. This was not the only time that Hans Christian Anderson awkwardly burst into tears. Apparently, while he was at the Dickens of State, he got word that his new novel To Be or Not to Be had gotten bad reviews, and this made him throw himself on the lawn and start sobbing yenz Anderson writes in Hans Christian Anderson's biography that Hans's reactions quote, we're

not the least bit charming. No, I can imagine it's always awkward for someone to like burst into tears in front of you. Um. And I imagine especially at the Charles Dickens estate where he's like, yeah, I'm Charles Dickens. I've I've had a share of bad reviews. This isn't how a dignified men behaves in such instances. Is there a good way to respond to a bad review? Really? Yes? Uh? You look at a bad review and you go yeah, right,

and then you walk away. Or honestly, if I'm being super honest to me, a bad review is uh, you want to look at it, and the first thing you want to think is can I learned something from this? Right? Do they have a legitimate point? Or even even even if even if I'm like, well, I disagree with you, Okay, Well you're the person who has to listen to my work, so I have to decide if you are representative of all listeners and I therefore should adapt, you know, because

you're the ones to have to listen to it. Um Or do I say, okay, I don't. I am not responding to this. I don't care. It's not going to affect me and you move on and it stings a little, but screw him. That's how I feel. Very very, very few and absurd negative reviews we've gotten on this show. I guess that's what I mean, though, It's like, there's no way to publicly react to a bad review that is not going to make you look kind of silly

or undignified or like you're taking it too personally or whatever. Sure, but throwing yourself down to the ground and having a tantrum definitely not the worst option. Now. One time, Hans visited the philanthropist Baroness Angela Boudette Coots, who was one of the most wealthy women in England, and YenS writes that Hans found the servants too elegant and didn't dare ask them to put more pillows on this bed, so

instead he asked the Baroness herself, which is so awkward. Yes, First of all, she's like, that's not literally pay people to do this. Second of all, you're saying I'm less elegant than Like, what are you trying to say now? Charles Dickens tried to escape Hans as much as he could, and he used rehearsals for The Frozen Deep as an excuse to stay away, but the estate of Gad's Hill was his family's main house. There really wasn't much getting

away at all. Anderson, you know, he probably did recognize the sort of awkward tension that he was creating, and of course he's going to work really hard to overcome that, which, again in Victorian England, is not what you do. He just made things more awkward by trying to cut through the tension, and his obsession with Charles Dickens made everyone uncomfortable.

One time at dinner, Charles held out his arm to a visiting lady, who escort her into the room, and Hans Christian Anderson swooped in between them and grabbed his arm for himself, and as charles son Henry Rowe to quote leading father triumphantly into the dining room. Oh lord, Charles Dickens is like me, and Muggen is deaditely like look at mind his shoulder, like rolling his eyes. He did he just do? Yeah, And of course everyone is like teasing Charles Dickens for this, you know, when you've

got that embarrassing friend. Yeah, but that is really just the beginning of Hans Christian Andersen's ridiculous antics at Charles dickens house. His awkward behavior drove Dickens absolutely nuts, but that might have been because Dickens was secretly having some marital problems in the background, and Anderson had no idea that he was making things a lot worse. So we will hear more about that right after these words, welcome

back everybody now. Charles Dickens had ten children with his wife Catherine, and they mostly did not like Hans Christian Andersen either, probably especially that oldest son who's like I Ain shaven, another grown man. Charles daughter Kate called him quote a bony boar who stayed on and on. But he did connect a little with Charles's youngest son, five year old Edward, who was affectionately called Plorne. The first night Anderson was there, Clorine told him quote, I'll shove

you out the window. I not only want you to leave, I want you to possibly hurt yourself or die. But Anderson won him over with his silly antics. Florin loved hearing Anderson speak in Danish because Hans is English was still pretty bad. It was maybe even worse than it was before the ten years ago when he was at that party. So every time Lauren heard a Danish word that kind of sounded like an English word, he would say,

I understand Danish. It's just so close cute. I love a five girl being like no I I I understood that. YenS writes that later, when Anderson asked if Florin liked him, Florin gave a big smile and said yes, and now he would like to shove Anderson in the window. One time, Hans Christian Anderson made a big old daisy wreath and he wrapped it around the playwright Wilkie Collins top hat without him knowing. Wilkie was a friend of Charles Dickens.

He was the one who wrote The Frozen Deep, And as they walked through town together, everybody was like pointing and laughing at Wilkie Collins. Of course, he had no idea why, and Charles Dickens kids were kind of like, okay, that's kind of funny, sort of like that like a kick me sign on. But Collins did get back at

Anderson later though. He wrote a short story about a famous German writer named Harold von Wuff who stayed at the home of his English colleague Sir John and har Von is portrayed as quote a sentimental catture, a glutton, and an unhappy foreign bachelor. According to Yenz Anderson's biography, so very clearly this is meant to be Hans Christian Anderson and Colin Story says quote, there was no harm in hair von muf as for poor sir John. He suffered more than any of us for her. Von muff

was always trying to kiss him. So they're really just you know, teasing Anderson about how obsessed with Charles Dickens he was. You know, I don't think he ever really tried to kiss him. There's definitely a few people that are like, maybe he felt romantically about Charles Dickens, but mostly he just like idolized him and worshiped him in the most annoying way. It's like a fanboy situation. Yeah. Now.

Dickens also wrote letters to friends where he relentlessly teased Anderson and regularly made fun of him for being afraid of pickpocketers, because London kind of freaked Anderson out. This is a big, bustling city, and he apparently kept all his belongings in his boots when he traveled the city, which, to be fair, is pretty funny because this included a watch, money, a train schedule, a pocket book, a pair of scissors, a pen knife, and two small books. What kind of

boots are you wearing? Just like stretched out around his legs. I always buy boots two slices. But when I go to London, like I'm imagining, you know, if you have a giant purse and you can't find anything, but that's his boots. He's like, I have got some chipstick in here somewhere. He's trying to pay for get his train schedule. It's like, oh no, it's the penknife again. He misses three trains because he can't get the schedule of his boot. He's got to like dump it all out in the

middle of the station. Mary Poppins boots he's wearing. It's got like a reading lamp. He pulls out of him. Oh my god, amazing, Oh good hand sand of bitch. I made I know this would come in empty. I correcked myself up. But Dickens also shipped on Anderson's writing abilities and marked him for quote not being able to pronounce the name of his own book, The Improvisa Torre in Italian. He said, Anderson quote spoke French like Peter the wild Boy, and English like the deaf and dumb school.

Yet Anderson wrote in his diary the quote Dickens says, I speak better not only day by day, but hour by hour. That's so rude. I mean, like Dickens out here like talking insane ship. He's like writing the rudest things about him to all of his friends. And then Anderson is like, wow, when we meet up, he's so friendly to me, He's so nice. So he's just a real,

you know, back talking piece of shit. That's some British ship to do as well, to be like, I'm going to be rude as fucked you, but I'm going to hide behind my polite manners. That's why I'm being rude. It's because I can't be honest. What is that? And especially Victorian England, Yeah that's you, but not you your ancestors, you know, but yeah, no exactly where It's like he can't be straightforward to someone's face, that wouldn't be proper.

But it's okay for me to talk mad ship about him behind his back, right, So I don't know, it's not like sad because you know, Anderson's expecting way more straight dealing, it seems, or needs to be told very clearly, you know how you feel, what you're thinking, because maybe he's like missing, maybe you know, he had some kind of autism spectrum type thing where he's like, I really can't like I need a very literal person yea, because because either way, uh, you know, in addition to being

a foreigner and having totally different customs, Hans Christian Anderson we have seen is kind of like a child in so many ways, and his communication I think it reflects that. And he does sort of take things literally and expect you to say what you're saying. Yeah. Um, So there's definitely a communication barrier here. But to be fair, Hans Kristan Anderson did invite himself there to begin with, and was supposed to stay for two weeks and ended up

staying for five. So you know, it's not like Dickens isn't rightfully piste off at this guy. Now, it's unclear exactly what brought this lengthy visit to an end. Some accounts say that Dickens finally got fed up and asked or told him to leave. Others say that Anderson just finally felt that he was unwelcome, and he left in tears.

In either case, he did seem to know that he hadn't been the best guest, because he wrote to Dickens, quote, kindly forget the unfavorable aspect which our life together may have shown you of me. And Dickens barely responded to this in a letter where he just kind of described how the countryside had changed since Anderson left. Yes, since you left, the leaves of fallen off the trees and

the fields are now brown. And then he never wrote or spoke to Anderson again out Yes, Dickens, in a hugely petty move, had a little sign made up that he placed on the mantle of the fireplace in the guest room where Anderson had stayed, and it said, quote Hans Anderson slept in this room for five weeks, which

seemed to the family ages. What a plaque that's so rude, Olivia Retiguliano writes on lid hub quote This interlude does remind us that while sometimes you can meet your heroes, maybe just don't let your fans live with you in your house. Great advice. It can be easy to blame Hans Christian Anderson for his outrageous behavior here, and like we said, he's not blameless. I mean, he did invite himself, he stayed too long, he's throwing tantrums, he expecting things

that he maybe shouldn't have expected. And Retigliano also calls Anderson quote insensitively sensitive, which can be real frustrating. I mean, you know, he does seem like he's very wrapped up in his own emotions and it can't see how they affect other people. Maybe, but if we look a little closer and examined Charles Dickens's own behavior, it really seems like there was a lot more going on than just

a bad house guest. Jens Anderson writes in Hans's biography that quote the Dickens family had always represented something of a Victorian ideal that became known around the world. I mean, this guy had a serious reputation, right. This is Charles Dickens. He infected Christmas. Is the guy who gave us Bob Cratchett and Oliver Twist and Nicholas Nickleby. I mean, these are pretty relatable and virtuous heroes. By in Marge and everybody saw Charles Dickens as Mr Perfect. You know, he

was a reflection of his work. But during Anderson's stay there in eighteen fifty seven, there was actually a lot of family drama going on in the background. Things weren't so perfect after all. You see. Charles Dickens had met his wife Catherine in eighteen thirty four, and they married quickly and for a while they were a super happy couple. Dickens wrote during period of their early marriage that even if he became rich and famous, he would never be as happy as he was with his wife in their

small flat in Bloomsbury. Oh, Bloomsbury, can we capture the magic game? You go back again and have a co back to blooms three. But over the years, Charles started to resent Catherine and her lack of energy, and he found her to be an incompetent mother and housekeeper. He even blamed her for their ten children, saying he wanted to stop after four. I'm sorry, Dickens. Why to keep your dick into yourself if you don't want any more kids?

You know how it works. I gotta maybe a little education for Charles Dickens on how he ended up with ten kids. Okay, also her lack of energy. She had ten kids. University of York says that letters were recently discovered that suggested Dickens actually tried to bend the law to have Catherine committed to a lunatic asylum to get her out of his hair. Unbelievable move from Charles missed

perfect Dickens. Fortunately, a doctor named Thomas Took found that there was no evidence that she suffered from a mental disorder, and Dickens was so powerful at the time that Professor John Bowen says, it was really courageous of two to stand up for Catherine and say no, your wife is not insane, because this is Unfortunately, I don't think it was common, but it was certainly something that was done more than once. Yeah, he mentioned. Yeah, he mentions that

the laws were ambiguous enough that this could happen. And honestly, the fact that Charles couldn't get it done was owed almost entirely to Took by stepping in and saying, I just I just can't let this one slide. Well, this is how you get those funny Well they're funny today, they're really not funny in context, but those funny lists of how reasons people were put in asylums from back in their women specifically and it's stuff like, I mean, like she's tired, or like she had an orgasm once

or whatever. Like it's just like the most ridiculous ship. She told me she had a bad day once, outrageous. Something must be terribly wrong with her brain now. Professor John Bowen writes, quote, it's a gas lighting story, manipulating someone into doubting their own sanity. And it's also a story about professionals standing up against the rich and powerful. Big ups to Thomas too. Yeah, all of this drama between them was reaching ahead in eighteen fifty seven when Mr.

Fairy Tales showed up on Dickens doorstep. Charles at this point was already trying to scheme his way out of his own marriage. Plus he had just gotten a bunch of bad reviews on his serial Little Dorit, and money was actually kind of tight for them, which he also blamed his wife for sounds a lot like throwing a little temper tangion. But in addition to those personal problems, he was also dealing with this recently deceased friend of his and the play that he was putting on in

his honor. Then, to make matters worse, there was an actress in that play. Her name was Nellie Turning, and of course Dickens fell head over heels in love with this girl. I mean, he was forty five and rich and powerful and producing a play, and she was an eighteen year old actress. So you know, Taylor as old as plays. I guess now it's Victorian England and divorce. Obviously there's a crazy idea, especially for someone as prominent

as Charles Dickens. Right, so he wasn't quite sure how to get away from his wife that he could hang out with his actress instead without it being a whole big scandal, but he was definitely trying to. He wrote in a letter to a friend of his at the time, quote, Paul, Catherine and I are not made for each other. What is now befalling? I have seen steadily coming every year she gets older. I don't know why she's no longer made for me. Ever since I noticed she wasn't a

teenager anymore, I've seen this coming. I just couldn't bring myself to touch her body. I love that that like I've been seeing the steadily coming. Like you know, maybe no one else expected it. When I have repeated several times that I want her out of love my life and tried to have it committed to an insane asylum. But actually, I think this has been coming for a

while now. Surprisingly enough, that's somehow speculated that there was an affair between Dickens and Nelly at this time, like physical affair, but if there was, it was kept very quiet, right right, Uh, speculation station. I mean, Hans Christian Anderson is hanging out with them, and Dickens is probably worried that he's going to blow the whole thing up, right, I don't know. Something about your nonsense is gonna end up. A curtain is gonna get pulled down, and I'm going

to be caught red handed with my something somehow. I know you're going to ruin this for me. Where's the Dickens fars? He could have written out of this at any rate. Anderson seemed to be totally oblivious to this Dickens family feud while he was there in eighteen fifty seven, and only seemed to learn about their situation a year after he stayed with them. But the fallout would hit the obliviously sweet Danish author pretty hard, and we will hear more about that right after this. Welcome back to

the show everybody. Now, Over the years after Anderson's visit, he had sent Dickens a few more packages, you know, copies of his books with heartwarming handwritten dedications inside, but Dickens neither read them nor responded. Do you think he just got him and threw him in a fire, like

he didn't even open them? That would be sad. Anderson Yen's rights was quite simply frozen out, and despite knowing his behavior was not the best, Hans was really surprised to be completely ignored by this guy that he thought of as a hero and a friend. But as we said, Dickens was going through his own stuff at the time.

Um he did separate from his wife Katherine officially, although it was kept quiet and while the exact causes unknown, rumors swirled around Victorian England about who and what and why, and lots of people had their own version of the story. It's almost as if all these Victorian British folks were like wound up so tight and can't share anything or say anything, are desperately thirsty for rumors to spread around and will go absolutely insane, like it's a drop of

blood and a shark tank. They hear the slightest thing they go running into Mary. Did you hear Charles had an emotion today? By God call the Queen. It's all over the papers. Well way back in the day when Charles and Catherine were first courting each other before they marriage, Catherine's little sister, Mary Hogarth was always hanging around with them, and when Charles and Catherine got married, Mary came to

live with them. This is super strange in Victorian England for a young single teenage girl to come live with a newlywed couple, like kind of cramped their style. That wasn't good for anyone, kind of strange. But she really helped out around the house. They both loved having her there, especially when Catherine got pregnant for the first time and Charles Dickens really took a shine to young Mary. He called her quote an intimate friend, a privileged sister, and

a domestic companion. Philip Allingham of lake Head University says that Dickens was truly obsessed with her and used her as inspiration for some of his characters, such as Rosemaylie and Oliver Twist, Kate and Nicholas Nickleby, and Agnes In David Copperfield, which are all, you know, some of his

strongest female characters his works. Dickens even trusted Mary's opinion of his writing more than his wife Katherine's, as ailing him, writes quote, trusting that her observations and reactions represented those of the common reader, unlike Catherine, who was just my wife, just so lazy, sitting around having six more kids. And I asked for I mean, but maybe that wasn't really a dig. Like maybe he's like, well, you're your classy lady or whatever. Mary's like younger, she's you know, you know,

represents the regular folk or something. But when Mary was only seventeen, and after living with them for only a year, she died suddenly from unknown causes, probably heart failure stroke. Dickens wrote, quote, she died in my arms, and the very last words she whispered were of me. He took a ring from her finger, and he wore it for the rest of his life. He visited her graves so often that other visitors in the cemetery thought he was

her actual brother. There is tons of research out there on just how big of an impact Mary Hogarth had on dickens writings and characters throughout his life because she was definitely a number one influence on him going forward. Man. Yeah, they even named their first daughter Mary, apparently at his insistence. Yeah. Um, I also like that, you know, she died in my arms. In her very last words she whispered aware of me,

which you know according to him. But also I think Ailingham writes like, given Charles Dickens kind of ego centric city, it wouldn't be surprising if her last words were of him, because he probably made every conversation about himself, even with someone who's dying, And he said, Mary, don't leave me. Don't you know what that would do to me? She's like, You'll be all right, Mary, Mary, are you okay? Can you tell me what you think of this paragraph here

before you go quick of it? And look Throughout dickens life, it was very off and young women that intrigued him and ended up being the model for characters in his books. We won't get into all of them, but there was a number of teenage girls that he kind of had obsessions with, no matter how much older he got. Very um, very Matthew McConaughey confused, Right, That's what I love about influences on my work, I keep getting older, they stay

the same age. But historian Michael Slater writes that dickens own wife, Catherine, the woman he loved, the woman he married, the woman who birthed ten children with him, the woman he lived with for twenty two years. Quote, appears to have had less impact on his deepest imagination and art than any of the other women who hold an important place in his emotional history. So she's just not not

worthy of inspiring him somehow. Kind of wonder what then got them together or if it was just the very fact that she was his wife that made him think, you know, oh, well, no, you're not that kind of special, You're not that kind of woman. You're just a wife. Yes, I was about to say, a wife and mother, not mysterious, not exciting maybe, or that like he liked these attachments that couldn't lead to something necessarily like this, like his

wife's sister or something. It gave him maybe that energy or something, and made him imagine things that weren't real. You know, where's Catherine's real? She's right there. He can sleep at her any time, like there's no mystery to her for him, which says to me that he doesn't. Maybe didn't explore her very much because I bet she had more going on her brain than he was given her credit for. But who knows, Maybe she's a big dummy. I don't know. I mean, at some point they fell

in love right and got right. She had something going for maybe her worst, the worst thing she could have done, and say yes. If she had never said yes, he would be obsessed with his whole life. Maybe. But we can see that pattern continue because twenty years after Mary's death, this eighteen year old actress Nellie turn In was now Charles Dickens new focus and inspiration, and his attention drifted

even further from his wife at this point. In eighteen fifty eight, the year after Anderson left Gad's Hill in tears,

Charles and Katherine Dickens separated. Now we don't know exactly why, but the main rumor is that one day Katherine got a little package in the mail and she opened it up and what was inside but a beautiful bracelet thank you so much, with a note for the teenage actress Nellie Turning what the jeweler had accidentally delivered it to the wrong lady Oopsie doodle, which I mean in the jeweler's defense, Charles Dickens says, I bought this beautiful bracelet

send it to my to my lover. He's like, oh yeah, I know her. I'll bring it by. Everyone knows Katherine. Isn't this a plot in love? Actually? Oh god, I supposedly this is just the nail in the coffin for Katherine, who like just couldn't take it anymore. You know, you could try to put me in an asylum, but this is too far, sir. Bracelet bracelet, how dare you throw out? Also, Catherine Dickens uh famously had this badass snake bracelet. It's like in a museum in England somewhere. I saw some

pictures of it. But it's awesome, nice. Yeah, obviously it's Victorian England. Their separation was kept as quiet as possible, but rumors started to circulate the Dickens and turn in We're having an affair, which Dickens ardently denied, saying, quote,

all the lately whispered rumors are abominably false. Whosoever repeats them after this denial will lie as wilfully as foully as it is possible for any false witness to lie before heaven enough, what a claim is this some of that flourish that means insincerity that we heard about earlier, because that's what it sounds like to me. He's a little a little too upset. It is just to come out and say it didn't happen. And now that I've said that, if you say it did happen, you're obviously

lying because I already said it didn't. Oh well, it's not the full proof defense. Thanking everybody. You're definitely the most reliable narrator of your own life. Now, this drama persisted for years because, of course things moved more slowly back then. It took a couple of weeks to reach

a publication, right. But meanwhile, in eighteen sixties, so just about two years after the separation, sele old Hans Christian Anderson published a book in Germany about his travels, and it was called from de Heart and the World and Duped. And this book included a little story titled a Visit

with Charles Dickens. Biographer YenS Anderson calls the writing quote a naive and sentimental portrait of his visit with Charles Dickens that was just about oh that the happy time that he had with all this big, happy family and

jolly old England. But it's hard to say if Hans was just, you know, obliviously naive about his time there, or if he had deliberately fictionalized this story as sort of like a name droppy tale about how he and one of the world's most famous authors spent a lovely summer together and he laughed at my jokes, yes, and he loved me. One time he took me into dinner on his arm, right handsome. So it's just kind of weird behavior from Hans to publish this story again. Is

he making it all up? Or is he just oblivious? And it's not unlike Hans to completely miss the point that he was the one who made Charles Dickens hate him right, I mean again, we know that he doesn't exactly pick up on social cues, but he also spent the rest of his life really confused as to why

Dickens never talked to him again. Well, the story about his time at Dickens house went far and wide, and the European press and by now even the Americans we're all drooling over this selacious Dickens drama of his affair with a young actress. So when this hunky dory story about the idyllic time Anderson had with the beautiful Dickens family who never argued how a single problem when anyone came out, it just kind of added fuel to the fire.

The contrast between these two stories, right, yeah, yeah, it was like this, like, oh, perfect time with a perfect family, and everyone's like comparing, contrasting with the next column over, which is like Dickens found too in Nellie's arms. Now, what's weirder still is that Hans Anderson definitely knew by this point that things were not going great for the Dickens family. In fact, some had even tried to pin the blame on him for the Dickens marriage falling apart.

The novelist bs Ingeman wrote, quote, I suppose I ought not to say this, but Dickens and his wife lived together just fine until Anderson came to visit. Anderson is supposed to be so harmless, yet he's quite awful. He's caused thousands of troubles with women. Whenever he stays here, I fear for my wife. It will end with her running off with him. Come here, Lucy, let me hold onto you this mc sweeney's article, Christian Anderson like these were mostly silly accusations. I mean that the timing was

kind of odd. But as soon as Anderson left this this famous visit, Dickens marriage fall fell apart. But either way, the association between Anderson and their separation was just locked in. Everyone thought those two things happened concurrently, right, But Anderson clearly must have been aware that there was some drama going on while he was there, because later his publisher even wrote him a letter in which he says that

Charles Dickens head grated himself with this alleged affair. And Hans himself wrote a letter to his old buddy Edward Colin we learned about in the previous episode, and he told him quote, I have much to tell you and your wife about Dickens and his family life. I don't care to put what is holy private on paper. You never know what might be printed over the course of time. So he straight up knew there was some dirty details going around, and to that point, Charles Dickens himself was

extremely private. In fact, he notoriously burned all of his letters. On the other hand, Hans Christian Anderson actually specifically requested that all of his letters be published after he died, so a very different approaches to what you know privacy meant to the two of them. Right, So, not only had Hans Christian Andersen barged in on dickens home and disrupted his family at a very difficult time, he then went back and like put his whole family unblast in

this like weird idealized fiction about his time there. So obviously Charles Dickens was extremely offended, like about this, He's like, you can't just go out and talk about your time in my personal private home. Published that, I mean, like literally, this story was huge and royals were reading it in different countries all over Europe. So that kind of explains to me why Dickens never wanted to talk to him again. I could see that. I could see that, and he's like,

that was not anybody's business. But also Anderson wrote the most lovely things about Katherine Dickens. He said she had quote big gentle eyes and a good natured smile, and he repeatedly compared her to dickens best female characters in his novels, like Agnes in David Copperfield, which we know Dickens based on Katherine's little sister Mary and not Katherine herself. That must have really got under his skin. No, not her,

so is I didn't piss Charles off enough. It also screwed up his divorce proceedings because he's in court trying to paint Katherine as this incompetent wife and mother I meeting while there's a story going around, Oh, she's just the loveliest lady, her kids lover, everything's great. Damn, Dickens was already cutting his actual friends out of his life

for siding with Katherine and his separation. So it's really no wonder that he spent the rest of his life completely ignoring the Danish children's author that he never really wanted to get to know in the first place. You wonder if Katherine's lawyers loved that piece be published. It was like, oh, she's an incompetent mother hall well Hans

Christian Anderson says, she's the bomb exhibit A. Yes. Now, the English themselves were so thirsty for this drama that Anderson's book was, as Youngs calls it, quote like manna from heaven, Like, oh my god, you couldn't have asked

for a better book. Drop during this wars right his Dickens family story was published in the magazine Bent Liz Miscellany with an editorial attach that basically was saying, like, oh wow, very bizarre that Dickens says his wife is such a monster, while Anderson is out here saying what a lovely family they are. But they also said, well, also, Hans Christian Anderson sucks because how dare he spilled the tea on this family's private life? Now we have no

choice but to publish. I love that, Like, oh look at all these dirty details, and how dare you share them with us? Christian Anderson? Anyway, here they are published in our magazine across the world. You're running five thousand copies of them right now. It's almost like that meme with Mac from Always Sunny. He's like, oh my god, that's disgusting. Where where Hans Christian Anderson? How dare you say these things? Can we get that in writing? Please? Well?

During a five month trip across Switzerland and Germany, Anderson spoke about and did readings from a visit with Charles Dickens. But he was also really moby around this time. He wrote quote, I am dejected. I wish to die and yet to live. I have no desire to be here at home, and yet I don't feel happy anywhere else. I feel as if I had thrown myself into the sea to let the waves carry me once again. They have carried me back to my own shores. Why I feel that that is so relatable. That's one of my

favorite quotes of his. He's just like, I'm not happy at home, but I don't want to leave. I want to die, but I don't want to be dead, right, I just want to be dead for like a couple of days. I definitely feel that like we should have a day, or we could just be suspended in like an another dimension or something, or nothing we do or same matters and nothing has any effect on us. We

have effect on nothing. Yeah, if only there was like a one to two year period where no one required anything of me and I could just stay at home, um and not associate with anyone, Surely I'd get a lot of work done in that time. Right, I don't count it because I feel like we were still had a lot of effectations and that was very stressful time.

It was not a free time. Then, Nellie turn In and Charles Dickens never married, nor were they public about their affair, but she served as inspiration for characters like Lucy Manette in A Tale of Two Cities and a Stell Havisham in Great Expectations. There's not much evidence of their affair, as they were both careful not to document it, and like we said, Dickens was a notorious letter burner, so if he did write or anything got consigned to

the flame. But when he died in eighteen seventy, Dickens left Nellie turn In one thousand pounds, which is worth about a hundred and seventy thousand U S. Dollars today, not shabby. He also gave her a trust fund income to ensure that she would never have to work again. Can I please have a short affair with a guy who decides to set me up on the line. But Charles dickens death was even harder on Hans Christian Anderson.

He wrote in his diary quote on the evening of the ninth Charles Dickens died, as I read in tonight's newspaper. So we will never meet again on this earth, nor speak to each other. I won't receive an explanation from him as to why he never answered my later letters, which again is kind of weird that Charles Dickens died and Hans Christian Andersen's first thing is like, well, now he's never going to answer my question. They definitely are.

That's what's so weird about these two. I mean, I really think there should be like, uh Will Ferrell John c Riley comedy about the two of them, because there's such an odd or it feels like Tommy Boy or something where you've got this like sweet dope and this like kind of hardened intellectual that just can't get along. But the dope is so like loving. He's like I just want us to be best friends forever, and the other guys like I don't have time for you. I'm busy,

I have work, you know. Uh, there's just such a story there. But yeah, no, it's not like cons Christian Anderson wasn't the most annoying guy in the world during all this. I think it would be very hard to be friends with. Yeah, yeah, I mean look at the last story, like he's just his emotions are so intense and he doesn't understand them himself. So if he likes you, I don't think he knows the difference between like and love. You know, I think it once he like really feels

feelings for someone in any way. He's like, oh my god, I need this all the time. Never leave my side. We're destined to be together forever. And you're like, well, how about we're we just like each other and we're just friends. We just have a good time, right or all right, fine, do you want to have sex? And he's like, disgusting, how dare you suggest such a thing? I'm going to go home and plus uh so super just just a weird, bizarre relationship between the two of them.

I mean, you can see the insensitively sensitive is a good description because he was just so wrapped up in his own feeling and he's like, doesn't seem to care how they affect other people or like I you know, he's not self reflective enough to say, oh, I am imposing my sensitivities onto people in places where it's not appropriate and I need to learn how to like rein it in save it for a friend or a private space or whatever, because it's just not it's just like

ricocheting off other people and having problems. It's the perfect storm of incompatibilities because obviously Dick in this Victorian British society is really bad being direct and um thinks that, well, obviously you're going to pick up on my very subtle

suggestions and gestures. Right. And on the other hand, you've got a guy who's, like we said, very childish, needs things kind of spelled out for and to begin with, but also always seems to kind of have his fingers in his ears, like la la la, I didn't hear the part that I should have heard. So between those two things, there was never going to be a clear line of communication between the two of them, right, and

Charles Dickens, he was just too cool, you know. In Hans eyes, he's like, I have to be around you all the time, um, to the point where he even ignored the fact that this guy was a dick was an asshole. He's being a jerk. Yeah, because see why Jenny lynd was maybe the most successful because she is very like, you're my brother, we are as simples. I

love you like a brother, hey, brother. She really hammered at home for him, true boy, Yeah, I mean Jenny Lynde Edward Collins and even some stories we'll get into in the next Hans Christian Anderson episode, a lot of them just very indirect with him. Um, but he seemed like a guy that it was hard to be direct with. Yeah, I see that. So I'm gonna quickly say another thank you to Arvid Gomez for this suggestion because it was awesome.

But also when he reached out about it, he mentioned this like game that someone had made about Hans Christian Anderson. And what was so funny about that is that I had already seen that on my Twitter and I saved it so to play one day maybe, um, And so if you're interested in playing this game, please check it out. Um. It's someone on Twitter named Oliver dark sheer at Death

by Badger. He made a like a tabletop RPG, like a Dungeons and Dragons kind of game where you trit your Charles Dickens and you're trying desperately to get Hans Christian Anderson out of your house. And it is so funny, like the options are great. So anyway, check that out. It's super super fun. Now. Look, like we said before, there's just so much more to tell about Hans Christian Anderson.

I mean, I never dreamed in a million years that we look into this story and find so many love stories for a guy who never even had sex his whole life. But we've got to come back to it because like, for example, this guy was paraded around Paris by authors like Balzac and Alexandre Dumat and even Victor Hugo, and all these guys were out there just trying to

get him laid. Amazing Victor Hugoes like, you've never done what I've done it eighteen times today when we talked in our show before about how these this era, these authors were like up to their faces in boobies, right, like they were always getting laid. So Hans Christian Anderson definitely the standout here. Uh. He also fell in love with the sister of a friend of his who fell in love back with him, but she was already engaged, so that wasn't gonna work out. And then he also

loved this grand duke. They had a really passionate story together that ended in war, basically is what separated them. He also fell in love with this dancer who maybe loved him back, We're not really sure. And then a young friend of his who had a very similar end to Edward Colin as where you know, he just never really was straightforward with Hans that I don't like you like that, but I love you as a friend. So there's just so much more to tell. Of course, Hans

was totally Hans about it every single time. We're just gonna have to get into all that in our next episode. Just gonna have to get a hanstall on all that. Wow, I tried. I don't think you did. It was an attempt like if we were Hans, Hansta like a hand like we're trying to get a handle on that. We're going to get a handle on that. Okay, if we were doing the composer handel, damn, it would be great. All right. I'll save it for if there's any story in Handle's now. But I'm super excited to get more

into Hans Christian Anderson. Thank you again, Arvid for sending him our way, because clearly a rich will to draw from. I know, I saw a lifelong virgin and thought there wouldn't be much to say, and we've got three episodes that it's so stay tuned. I hope everyone enjoys their holidays, but could just go forth and be merry whatever you're doing this week? Yeah, and We hope you enjoyed this episode, as we always do, we love hearing from you. Reach

out to us ridick Romance at gmail dot com. That's right. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram. I myself am at Oh great, it's Eli. I'm at Dianamite Boom and the show is at ridic Romance and we will see you next time. Love you five, so long, friends, It's time to go. Thanks so listening to our show, tell your friend's names, uncle's and this to listen to a show ridiculous. Well this