Elementary, My Dear Houdini: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle vs. Harry Houdini

say it's your pet. And then I also, as much as I am a crazy dog lady and I love my dog, I own that dog. He's not my like not like internet own more legally I own. I'm I'm dunk on him all day, I roast him. But also in addition, I'm the owner, I'm the boss lady, I'm the alpha, so you know I don't it's a dog dude. It's not like my roommate anyway. That's that's ridiculous. Have

I got a story for you? How about a story about the time when the author of Sherlock Holmes, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, my man got into a very very public feud with the magician Harry Judini. Yeah, Harry Judini, right, I didn't expect that coming. So the two men had battled about whether like mediums and psychics and seances and jiboards were like valid tools to contact people from the great beyond. Now they're public feud eventually ended their friendship,

as public feuds often do. So you ready for the story of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle versus Harry who did born? Ready, let's do this. This is ridiculous crime of podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heights and cons. It's always murder free and ridiculous. Okay, first things first, we kind of need to set some ground rules or some foundational setting for this. Well, there's a stage, you know. Well, you know, it's just basically that things were different then, even though

they were the same. And I think you kind of need to understand what we are dealing with because if I say, you're like, oh, nine twenty, right, but like there's like a whole deal about nineteen twenty, I don't think a lot of people think about, which is they had gone through World War one and the Spanish flu. At the same time, death is just hanging in the air. There's like this great darkness, there's this grief, and out

of that comes this need for Yes, it's true. I'm not going to argue because that is spot on people needed just like people and say jazz, Yes, you need to do a jazz hands in the next time. All right,

I'm not critiquing your style. I'm just saying, but out of this need for some spiritual relief and sustenance other than jazz music comes this, uh basically spirit of the times as ZiT Geist, if you will, that had psychic life coaches and like these mediums and charlatans and street theater people going and doing like um readings, if you will, like just know you, sir, I have a message for you from your dead wife. So it's like in person,

live action, Instagram kind of kind of crystals. Yeah, Like right now we have like the crystal healers the Internet, which covens energy, body working. Yeah, exactly, but that's all pretty much the same stuff as then, but the need for it was different than than it is now. Although with the pandemic we're getting pretty darn close to pushing the same similar kind of numbers. Right. Well, that New age stuff then was called spiritualism. So this is a

story about spiritualism. Okay, Okay, I'm really excited for this. Did you see this story about that l a guy who had to go and hire a psychic life coach. I think it was like five grandy paid Dr or No, hey, he only did you ever a thousand dollar to deposit, but she was going to charge five grand to remove a curse that his ex girlfriend had had paid a witch to place on him. So he got a psychic

to fight a witch. Okay, Okay, So I just thought that was like, you know, emblematic of our times, but it just as easily could have been having the spiritualism what I'm saying, Have you ever been to a psychic? No? I think like I can remember, um at like some elementary school spirit week fair, not spirit like, but like I'm excited about school. Um I seem to remember there was like a psychic and I'm sure it was highly offensive like Roma culture, you know, yeah exactly, with all

stall yeah and coin earrings and stuff. But um, I remember they had like a tent and you could use your tickets to go and have your fortune red and they put one of those red like thin plastic fish that would curl up and it would tell you, like what that meant? You know what I'm talking about. It's like heat responsive. It's like the paper and you put your heat on it. Yeah, and you know they use

that like throwing bones essentially. Yeah, And so if you run a little hot, curls right up if you're you know, clammy handed. I don't know anyway, I don't know what my fortune was. I'm sure it came true. I like Chuck Closterman, the writer, he went to a psychic, actually bent to a bunch of psychics and asked them all if he could become a professional bowler. And he's like, never bowld you had know anything about bowling. They're like, oh, yes,

I see it for you. You will. So that's kind of like my take on a lot of this stuff is you're pretty much gonna be told what you want for money. But that's said. I do want to say straight up, I do not have an opinion of what people believe. I want everyone to believe whatever they want. The only thing that I find ridiculous in all of this is the Charlatan is trying to deceive people. It's not the believers. I don't have a problem with whatever

you believe, it's the deceiver's exactly. So I just wanted to say that plane is possible. Okay, let's start off our story with an English writer, but not the one we're discussing. Not to Arthur Conan Doll instead, Charles Dickens. Well, wasn't sir Arthur Conan Doll Scottish? Oh you're gonna be like that, Yes he was. I should have said British, not English, and then he could have fallen under that umbrella. So yes, yeah, continue, So Charles Dickens, you like Dickens.

Sure he got, he got paid by the Comma. It's such a former English teacher comment. I love it. Well. Anyway, he's this big time spiritualist and he believed in what was called mesmeric curses. Now, mesmeric curses were something that he thought would be some a way to heal his sister in laws intestinal evil. Yeah, intestinal we've all had intestinally right exactly now. He planned also to fight her intestinal evil, he would use the power of animal magnetism, right, no, right,

But he wasn't like that kind of animal magnetism. And it also wasn't like, oh I'm gonna rub a magnetic rabbit on you. It was it was hanimal magnetism back then meant hypnotism. Oh so it's sort of like your animals, that your primal primal magnetism. Yeah, exactly, it's like the attraction of all living things. I guess I don't know. I'm not a spiritualist. But he also, you know, it was like into clairvoyance, and he believed that this was

an extension of Clare of Voiance. So basically there's this psychic ether and this was an example of him being able to tune into it. Right now, He's not alone. In the nineteenth century, you have a bunch of like luminaries who were big time spiritualist. W. B. Yates was one, Queen Victoria's one, the painter of the Scream at Vard Munch. He was a big one. Um see. Oh, of course Mary Todd Lincoln, the Queen, the first Lady. She very famously would have seances in the White House to try

to contact little Willie, their dear departed Willie. I'm gonna wet the earth for a little Willie. Now, the civil War was this major driver of all things spiritualism in macab right, So that was the first push, and then in World War One you get a follow up. Basically it's the same response. In the Civil War you have

like thousand people lost in the battlefields. Then uh, you know, in response to this within like by eight seventy eight, you have eleven million people who are calling themselves spiritualists in the United States, United States, just the United States. What was the population, like twelve million, I'm not good to the number. I actually don't know. The population was one out of three people. But like this nascent, like burgeoning kind of spiritual movement ended up turning into an industry.

So within a generation or two by the turn of the century, now there were well, for instance, in nineteen o nine you get four hundred twenty seven licensed mentalists in on the Eastern seaboard, licensed licensed. In ten years time there were six thousand, three hundred and ninety licensed from four hundred something just six thousand some ten years from nineteen nine nineteen. What had happened in between industry, World War One and the Spanish foot you can see

it's directly like the numbers carry it out. This isn't just like, oh yeah, people need spiritualism, though they're paying for it. Right. So by the end of like World War One, we're talking nineteen eighteen and November nineteen eighteen, the war ends, there are twenty million soldiers and civilians who are dead. Like it's just like bloody, bloody, bloody times. Right. So in a response and also the Spanish flu um, you have another let's see, I think americans die in that.

You have a hundred sixteen thousand Americans die in the World War One. So you just as you can see from these numbers, it's just it's really hard to find somebody who's not touched by loss. Okay. So in that environment you have like in New York City, a newspaper described the streets being filled with mediums, mentalists. Um, there was terms like street fake here, which is you know, the Indian fake here, the jongaliers, bunko merchants, miracle workers, healers,

and sears. So it's just like the streets are ripe with people with going, hey, what's that in your pocket? Got a little money, I'll tell you something spiritual right now. There's also though the d I y approach. Okay, do you can always do something yourself, right, So then that meant the Luigi board right now. Luigi board was invented in like eighteen ninety, I believe, but in by nineteen seventeen, it's become the thing everybody wants one. It gets like

they're having the adults are having parties. Isn't just like little you know, isn't children gathering together. There's adults having like seances using the Ouiji board right now. My man Harry Houdini, he immediately recognized this is kind of a slippery soap folks, and he called Wiji boards the first step towards insanity. So the guy who like chained himself up and hung upside down is telling other people what's insane. Hey, hey, well, but you have to understand this is like a common view.

The was the medical director of for New Jersey State Hospital for the Insane. He had the same opinion. He said, if Weigi boards quote, it would be difficult to imagine conditions more favorable for the development of psychosis than those furnished by the Wigi board and other mediums. So it's not just that like we have mass death and decimation that could cause psychosis. No, it's a it's Luigi board exactly, all right, dude, Hey man, he is the director of

the State Hospital for the Insane. He knows what he's talking about. I'm sure. Now, did you ever play with the Weigi board? Yeah? Yeah, did you like it? You don't seem like it would be the type just saying I'll just put it out there. Looks can be deceived. Uh No, you know. The thing is is that like, yeah, I can remember doing like doing the whole Weigi board thing at like a party or something as a kid. And then there's always like you can feel people pushing

the little what's what is that called on the Uigi board? Oh, I don't know, like those called the selector. It has another name. Oh I don't know what it is, Planchett. Okay, the planchett. Yeah. So you can feel people pushing on it, on the planchet, with their on the plan chet, with their agendas, when they asked questions like this, who has a crush on me? Who's in the room. Malik has a m and it's Malik. Yeah, I so I can. Yeah,

I've played with the Uigi board. I've gone there, and did you believe it in the moment, No, because I don't trust people. I mean, I I'm very open minded about stuff. You know, there's a lot and I'm okay with not being able to explain stuff. I don't feel like there has to be a scientific explanation for everything, and so I'm cool with that, you know, I'm cool. I love movies that have ambiguous endings, that's true. I

love in precision. So I'm yeah, like whatever. You know. Again, I'm not going to judge, you know, what I think or what other people think. But the Uiji board is just totally a setup for people to to try and manipulate. It's too much of a thumb on the scale. Yeah, well that's fair assessment. I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of families. There were a bunch of girls, and uh, we definitely play the Wegi board and I dug it and I had no problem with it. But

I also didn't think that they was divining anything. I thought it was just kind of we're just all doing it and pretending, you know. I realized people actually believed, you know, but yeah, whatever, that's but there's also there are the people who are terrified of them, like they don't want the wegi board in their house. You know. Also, do you'd ever play light as a feather stuff as a board. I'd heard about it. I saw that, and that made me I was much more o believer in that.

So you mentioned science, right, and science at this time is right in this like point where it's also starting to shape with people believe not just what they think, but what they believe. Right. There's this a funny, little strange German Man by the name of Albert Einstein, that little kittie, yeah, with a fun fun hair. He was up ending almost all reality at this point, but proving that scientists really couldn't prove anything. You know, they knew

a bunch of stuff, but they couldn't prove anything. He invents he through his theories of relativity, the way particle duality of light, his explanation of the photo electric effect. He wins a bunch of you know, Nobel prizes, but he also up ends reality. He basically says that everything is relative to the observer. This is a huge win for the spiritualist, the mentalist, and the psychics, and they're saying the same thing as Einstein. It's all up to

what you believe. So now let's get into our man, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the most rational mind, the guy who invented Sherlock Holmes. How do you think he plays into all this? I have no idea. Well, he's you know, he's rational. So you expect this guy to be the kind to basically be able to parse truth from fiction, to be able to analyze things and not be just swayed by emotion, right, but he goes to prove that we are all victims of what we believe, So stick

with me. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had also had his fair share of death and disease. His wife's brother died in World War One in Belgium. His son Kingsley, got himself wounded in France, also fighting in the war, and then two years later he dies of pneumonia. Conan Doyle's younger brother dies of the Spanish flu so it's just close to him. All in all, he loses eleven members

of his family are relative. So he's really velversed in this great darkness of that time, right, So he's willing to do things like seances, and his wife is super into it, so he starts, you know, he's legitimately somebody had been curious about his whole life, but he starts really getting into it after his son dies. Now I want you to picture it ready, the autumn of nineteen September, ten months earlier. The Great War just finally come to

a close. There's that grief hanging there that I've mentioned numerous times. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is at a hotel in the English coastal town of Portsmith. He's on stage for a rally of spiritualist believers and with him on stage this dude, Evan Powell. And Evan Powell is a thirty eight year old medium, and Powell is like really good at his job. He's conjuring up voices of multiple

departed souls from the audience. Everyone's blown away. Conan Doyle and his wife are so struck by what he's doing. They're like, hey, bro, like after this show, you want up, gonna be pop upstairs into a little private set. And he's like, okay, right, So he goes upstairs. Conan Doyle, his wife and five of their fellow spiritualist all huddle in this room. The candles are lit. They go, okay, medium, let's see what you can do. And first they're like, wait,

we want to check them. So they search him, they pat him down for anything, and it's like, okay, he's clean, and they go, okay, strip him. They strip him half naked, right, and then they tie him to a chair. Is this can exactly? Is this really still a psych So they're you know, they're all getting kinky with him. We have an offer for you, Mr Powell. So he's half naked, tied to his chair. They're like, okay, do your stuff right.

So they have the gas lights all low and their flicker and it's like just this whatever, the seven of them sitting there with Powell now ConA nod. He's a writer, so he records what he sees and he says, I quote, we had a strong phenomena from the start. The medium was always groaning, muttering, or talking, so that there was

never a doubt where he was. Suddenly I heard a voice out of the darkness, Conor no Doyle here, but out of the darkness, Conan Doyle, here's in the medium's voice, a voice that he recognizes, right, someone else's voice, and he's the voice, says Jane. It is I His wife cries it is Kingsley, I said, is that you boy? He? And this is all quote he said, he said, in a very intense whisper, in a tone all his own father.

And then after a pause, forgive me, now this kind of weird, right, just forgive me from the other side. What for? So so Arthur cnan Doyle, this grieving father, he's able to hear from his dead son. It blows his mind. Forget rationality, forget Sherlock Holmes, forget all that stuff. He's like, bro, it's my boy. But not only does he hear him, he feels his son's hand press on him. He then feels his son kiss him on the forehead, and his son whispers to him, I am so happy.

I'm so happy, exactly just like that. After that point, he's he's there. He is completely committed to spiritualism. He at one point goes and says that quote, God has placed me in a very special position for conveying spiritualism to that world which needed it so badly. Right, Spiritualism. He's like, that's my religion. Bra Now, this dude, he's like sixty years old at this time, and he had been started out life as a Catholic. You were a Catholic in Scotland. He was a Catholic born in scott

Is there a big scene Catholics in Scotland? Oh, it's dicey. I lived in Glasgow and it's there's a lot of sectarianism, we'll put it that way. Yeah, So it looks like he was willing to flee the sextarianism and find something more unifying and global in mind. So spiritualism just reaches like into his heart. And then also he has the emotional connection with his son and that need to talk to the dead, just like everybody else at this time. Now,

what could possibly test his faith in this connection to spiritualism? God, I told you up top, my man Harry who did That's right? That's right. So after this quick break, we'll be right back to bring my man Harry Houdini into the story. Okay, So it's nineteen nine Arthur Conan Doyle, sixty year old man, grieving father, lost eleven relatives all to war illness, and he's now thoroughly convinced that he can still speak to his dead son if he can

find the right Canadian medium to speak through. Right, that's where we are now, this whole like sayan scene. I have to admit, the only thing I've ever picturing when I was like reading about this was Paully Walnuts and the Sopranos and that sance. Do you remember that? Yes? Yes? Do you remember? Like when are you sitting there telling all the soul that the medium is looking up above him and there's all the souls competing to like basically

like finger him for their murder? Hey, what's he's looking around? And after he tells tone of hey, tone, I'm dragon souls. That's one of the things. I mean, that's sort of like recenters you when you're watching it of imagining if that's the case that they have all these people following them around, and like that was the thing with with Polly, like when you saw the magnitude, like the number of people and you're just like, oh man, yeah, he's put

a lot of people into some serious dirt maps. Yeah, okay, time to shake things up in this story. But bring in my man Harry Hudini now. To properly picture him, I want you to imagine that Hudini looks like a more attractive Harvey Kitel Need, like that one real name, Eric Wise Hudini was this like really headstrong, your curial man. He's hot tempered, he's proud, he's you know, not without being stereotypical. He's a very what I have experienced from Hungarians,

very hungarian. Right, he's not going to like balk on anything. He's got like a chip on his shoulder and he's like, look, you know how long we've been able to maintain Hungary. Do you know why we did it? Because we believe and we fight for what we believe in. I'm like, word, I get that. Houdini. Now, Hudini is this you know,

Hungarian born magician and an escape artist. As you pointed out earlier, he was also the president of the Society of American Magicians, which I didn't even know the leadership exactly. He was the leader for his crew Sam the Society of American Mitchell you know, as the president of the society. Of course, he hates all these like mediums and psychics which make them look bad. Here's what the magicians and illusion is getting like wrapped up in all of this.

They can't be like mistaken for mesmerists. Right now, Hudini, as you pointed out, group famous for it as an escape artist. But I want people to understand when I say a scape artist, he would like have a cop come up on stage and handcuff him, and then he would embarrass the cop by breaking out of the handcuffs while he was talking to him. That was like a warm up appetizer. Later on he'd be like, they have

chain wrapped around him, the straight jacket. Then he put me put underwater and he'd have to get out of the locks, the chain, the straight jacket, and they have to do it like before he drowned. And luckily he could hold his breath for like three minutes, so it wasn't entirely impossible, but still it was pretty sketch. He would basically constantly the attraction was will he die? Yeah, he was courting death. Yeah, good way of putting it. Now. One of his like other tricks was he once he

was in Mexico in Moscow. Same thing, Yeah, same things, it's just different excellence. So he gets on the Siberian prison truck and the key is only for he gets locked up in the Siberian prison truck and if he can't get out, he has to go all the way to a Siberian prison where the only key the lack is of course he got out because because we didn't hear about him being stuck in in He's not so Houdini.

He also wrote a book about himself called Hudini, A Magician among the Spirits, and in it, I'm going to quote a couple of times from it, he said, I associated myself with mediums at the time. I appreciated the fact that I surprised my clients, but while aware of the fact that I was deceiving them, I did not see or understand the seriousness of trifling with such sacred sentimentality and the baneful results which inevitably followed. To me,

it was a lark. So basically, he used to con the global and then has like this crisis of conscience, starts to feel bad, and he decides to become a white hat hacker of magicians. It's like, I'm gonna like, you know, sheep dog the flock as opposed to being a wolf. Therefore, this kind of set some up to run counter to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who you know in Judini's world is basically you know, grifting the sheep.

So Houdini has warned everybody, And there's another quote of his whenever any of these alleged spiritual mediums tell you that they have supernatural aid, you may safely set them down as frauds. My trick is merely a matter of sleight of hand. So what he's trying to basically prove is that after his years of quote having taken the spon DeLux which is his name for the rubes in with his deceptions, he really now understands that people are hurting.

He gets that this is a dark time. He says, uh, quote, the times hungered for something, A war memorial had appeared in every town, and many people naturally sought some divine solace for their grief. So that's why he goes after the deceivers, and not just because of the magicians, but also for the sake of the people. Well, it sounds like he classifies all mediums as deceivers essentially. Yes, so he doesn't believe in it. He doesn't believe in them.

He's never been He's never he says, he never has seen record of anything that they've done that would prove something other than an illusion. So if but he's open minded about it, and we'll get into that in a second. With Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. So Conan Doyle and Houdini strike up a friendship. Their pen pals cute, all right, you ever had a pen pal? No? I knew me neither, like actually follow through for that. I wrote letters to famous people when I was a kid, but like only

really old famous people, for like Irving Berlin. Were you writing to? How old were you? Oh? Yeah, I was like dude. I wrote to Bob Ross like the back before anybody was ever telling me about brass And he wrote me back a really nice letter from MUNC and it's all handwritten and they signed it. I mean Irving Berlin did the same thing. He wrote back to me. Yeah, exactly, like I ha to Berlin. I just told him about how I thought his music was still touching and moving.

And here I was a thirteen year old boy who was going through some is just feeling myself and your music touched just me. It talks to me, man, I feel so No. I just told him, like, you know, your stuff still laps, bro, I don't know if it's amazing. That's incredible. Yeah. So but he robbed me back. It was really really nice handwriting too. He's like a hundred years old at the time, literally a hundred years old. That was part of the reason I'd heard you had

a hundred birthdays. Like, I gotta write him before he like, hey, happy birthday. Hey man, you're you're one cool unit. You send him a birthday card? Uh no, but I did wish him kind of a birthday reading. Yeah. Sold. So Hudini and con Doyle they're doing the same thing. They're sending each other birthday cards or whatever, right, and Hudini is like, obviously still Hudini. He's not going to pretend, and he's not starstruck by Kunnan Doyle. So he's like

basically busting his balls about the spiritualism stuff. And he's like sending him a book that he wrote, Debunking a Magician, and he's like, hey, man, why did you read this? And Conan Doyle is like, nah, whatever, okay, I'll read it. No, I don't believe it. He's like, hey, why why don't you come over here to England and I'll show you how things are. And so they're like, yeah, maybe they finally do get together. Well, Cudini's over in Europe. They

hit it off in person. They're both these total hardheads, but they win over each other's rent. Then when Hudini comes to America, it happens to be that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is over in Atlantic City, and so Houdini and Arthur Conan Doyle they make plans to meet up in Atlantic City and uh Springsteen situation. So oh the song I was thinking of, like Springsteen and some psychic in Atlantic City. I was like springste was Houdini and then was reincarnated as Bruce Springsteen. That makes so much

I the Luigi Board told me just now. So the great men meet up in Atlantic City. The year is like ninety. Their wives are with them, but Conan Doyle and his wife like they have a cold spiritual medium thing. So they're like, hey, Hudini, why don't you leave your wife in the hotel room and then come on over and we'll do like a seance. I got a little surprise set up for you, and uh who needs being open minded? He's like, all right, bet let me see what this thing is about. So he goes over there

and con was like, look, I have a plan. My life is a medium. We're going to do an automatic writing thing where we contact your mother who he's like, my dead mother. Really you want to mess around with that? Okay.

So at this point, Sir Arthur, Conan Doyle's wife has become she's dabbling in it, and she gets really good, and she starts doing something called automatic writing, which means instead of like channeling in a voice like the medium that they saw who had actually spoken the voice of the sun, she just writes the messages, that writes them as fast as her hand can go. But I'm just curious, like she didn't show any of these tendencies she did prior to the sund She did, she did prior to

the answer. She had been doing it. And so Conan Doyle is like, I think my wife, who has a who's been getting much stronger with her powers. Yes, exactly, she can probably hook you up with you know, if you want to talk to anyone who's you loved, who's also gone to the Grape Beyond. How about your mother? You love your mother. So Conan Doyle and his wife, Lady Doyle, they are sitting in this candle at hotel room and Hudini is there with him to picture these

two guys. Conan Doyle is like, at this point sixty three, he's a big man, he's like six saying like six something six three. Right, he's got a military bearing because he was in the know the he's a biggin right, he's an absolute unit. And Pudini is five six, he's bow legged like a circus acrobat. He's squat and like like a spark plug of energy and intensity. Right, So very bit British military guy. And then this like kind of like yeah, little rascal. Right. So they're sitting there

with Lady Doyle and they're at this table. They like candles, they join hands, they say a little prayer. Lady Doyle sits real condidence, and still Rudini is still or stir Arthur Conan Doyle is still everybody's waiting. Then all of a sudden, Lady Doyle gets a jolt, right, and she starts writing her pen and she's just writing. And when I say writing, she fills up fifteen pages of writing just that. That's which is a lot. Right now. Conan Doyle, being the writer than he is, he records this. So

here is Conan Doyle's take on the scene. Quote. It was a singular scene. My wife with her hand flying wildly beating the table while she scribbled at a furious rate I sitting opposite and tearing sheet after sheet from the block as it was filled up, and tossing each across to Houdini while he sat silent, looking grimmer and paler every moment. Oh right, that's the scene, Yeah, exactly.

So he's sitting there reading these fifteen pages from his dead mother from Lady Doyle's flailing around exactly beating the table, and his mother is saying, like pretty much all the stuff you expect a dead person to say. She's likes, I miss you, I love you, I'm so happy in this life, and what are the what's your one quota? And it is so different over here, so much larger and bigger and more beautiful. It sounds like a pretty generic mess, right. It sounds like a kid describing heaven.

It's so big and they got water slides, and like everything's cool, thrilling, it's thrilling, it's the best. It's what's it like? A right? It's beautiful. And the funny part, though, is it's at the very end the funny your part. So Judini's mother ends her transmission from the Great Beyond by saying, God bless you, sir Arthur for what you are doing my last my last parting words to my my son. Your buddy's amazing, Like, he's a gee. You

should listen to him. He's so handsome. So, you know, Conan Doyle says he quote found it all profoundly moving. He called it a striking affirmation of the soul's immortality, demounds and sufferable. Right, Rudini not so effusive. He was like, yeah, whatever. So Conan Doyle goes forward to the press. He's like, I have convinced to deny the Great Judini that spiritualism is real. Go and ask him and he will tell

you all. So some news report it's like, hey, Hudini, we heard from Conan doll that you believe spiritalism is real. What's up, bro? And he's like, he told you what you like. Literally, he quotes says like, ha ha ha in the paper. In the paper, I looked up the old newspaper that it's ha ha ha ha. And then after that he's like he starts basically questioning the newspaper report. He's like, you know, it's something I found kind of funny. Mare. It's that my mother spoke to me from the great beyond.

But she spoke in English. There's a language she never spoke here on planet Earth. I just find that kind of curious. Another thing I found curious she began her message with a sign of a cross, which is weird because she was Jewish and the wife of a rabbi. So you know, I'm just finding a little bit of suspicious. She converted in the afterlife. But yeah, exactly right. I mean, like you could understand if they're looking at it is coming out in English. Maybe it's like a universal language,

that that's what is. Yeah, of course my wife writes in English. All she speaks. Wife's name is Lady Gaga ps. So he did. He feels a little bit bad about kind of like this. And his friend in the press, what that brust say. So he's like, all right, when we write a letter to Conan Doyle, and I quote, I know you are honorable and sincere and think I owe you an explanation regarding the letter I received through the hands of Lady Doyle. I was heartily in accord

and sympathy at that seance. But the letter was written entirely in English, and my sainted mother could not read, write, or speak the English language. I did not care to discuss it at the time, because my emotions and trying to sense the presence of my mother, if there was such a thing possible, kept me quiet until time passed

and I could give it the proper deduction. I trust my clearing up the seance from my point of view is satisfactory, and that you do not harbor any ill feeling, because I hold both Lady Doyle and yourself and the highest esteem. I know you treat this as a religion, but personally I cannot do so. For up to the present time and with all my experiences, I have never seen or heard anything that could really convert me. Now. The two start to part ways at this point, but

we're not done. A year later, Conan Doyle decides that spiritualism quote is God's most important message to the world. You've doubling down hardcore right. The next dear who deny publishes that book that I told you about, Whodini, a magician among the Spirits. He sends a book to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and well, I want to put it this way, It's like a literary distract. I'll tell you all about it right after this break, and we'll get

into Spiritualism's revenge against Judini. Like it. Okay, it's four who Denie puts out his book Hudini a magician among the spirits. Now I told you he dissed his boyd Conan Doyle. You want to know what he actually said? Yeah, I'm gonna quote. Spiritualism has claimed among its followers numbers

of brilliant minds. Whether these great minds have been misdirected, whether they have followed the subject because they were convinced fully of its true or whether they have been successfully hoodwinked by some fraudulent medium, are matters of conjecture and opinion. One such is Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. It is impossible not to respect the belief of this great author, who is wholeheartedly and unflinchingly thrown his life and soul into

the conversion of unbelievers. Sir Arthur believes in his great mind. There is no doubt. But that's not the distract part. That's the respect part. Here's the distract. There is no doubt that Sir Arthur is sincere in his belief, and it is this sincerity which has been one of the fundamentals of our friendship I have respected everything he has said, and I've always been unbiased because at no time if I refused to follow the subject with an open mind, I cannot say the same for him. Ah yeah right,

I don't. I love that disc just because it's like one of those nineteenth century distancs. But I cannot say the same for my right honorable friend. It's a classy dis No. You know, did you ever get into distracts. It doesn't seem like that would be your thing. I can't imagine you're like throwing on the latest hip hop distract. Yeah, that's not my thing. No, I mean I kind of just goes along really well with like the this battle

between them in terms of their beliefs. You know, let everyone just do what they want to do, believe what they want to believe. I don't believe in like the converting, and I don't think it's I don't know, I don't distracts and like whatever. Let people's behave stupid behavior, show them who, show out who they are. Let it went out, because all you're doing is just escalating it. And I don't know, you guys, squash it is what I'm trying to squash that beef swatch the beef. See the beef?

Where's the beef? Doyle is not impressed with Udini's book. He writes, literally writes on the flap of it a malicious book full of every sort of misrepresentation? Is that what he went into the library and wrote, like when someone would check it out and like, oh, oh, never mind, no, like on this or Arthur doyle dot com page, you can find this book and there is the flap open, so you can see his writing where like they're still

doing the distract back and forth. But that's a good disc tract, like he just he puts it in there, and then oh, so now you're a fan of I like the private distracts. That's fair. That's fair. So around this time, so we've gone from nineteen twenties, were at ninety four, Conan Doyle is like, you know what, as I told you, this is the most important spiritual realization

for all the mankind forever and ever. So he goes to where Parliament it says, you know, a parliament, we need to make Spiraitualism an official religion, possibly the official religion of the British Empire. People are like, all right, let's let's let's think about that, let's talk about that, and they actually do debate it. Meanwhile, not the actually becoming an official religion of the monarchy, but they're just

recognized the religion. Right. Meanwhile, over you know, across the pond, as they say in nineteen twenty six, Judini's working the opposite direction. He goes to Congress and at this point he's been basically he's got this team of special investigators. He's going around like New York, Washington, Boston, wherever you can, and is debunking every psychic and medium he can. He's got these people going into the seance, has taken notes and then so he's got this campaign and the culmination

of this campaign. As he goes before Congress and says, we need a law banning fortune tellers in America and he starts testifying before he's like a professional buzz kill exactly. Now the congressional hearings they take it legit seriously. But also you have to imagine the scene. Every fortune teller and psychic and medium on the Eastern Seaboard goes there to fight for their and also the other people organized crime, because who is backing these people organized crime? Really? So

they're also there. So everybody is against this. He's going against a lot of desperate and dangerous types. So Judini, meanwhile, he's loving it. He's a showman. He's got the biggest stage in the world. All the newspapers are writing about it, so he uses Congress as his stage. He's doing magic tricks up there. Yeah, he literally is. He does, like the whole thing. He fakes a message from Ben Franklin, just to show them how easy it is to like do a message from the great beyond. He fakes one.

He also then at one point he pulls out of his sucker, which is all the people that have been have lost family fortunes to mediums and oh yeah, no totally. And these are people that you know, his investigators that dealt with. And it wasn't just like I heard. It was like, no, these are wanting to tell you exactly how much they lost. So, like Judini says at one point, bringing up his boy, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, there are millions of dollars stolen by clairvoyance and mediums every year,

and I can prove it. So Arthur Conan Doyle is the biggest dupe. Oh yeah, right, once for friends. Now he's like dressing. He tried to convince him, and I think he sees us Arthur providing an air of legitimacy. You can't have Folms his author saying this is reasonable and rational. And Einstein, as I pointed out, has made it so they've thrown open the doors. At this point, everybody believes everything is now on the table about reality.

So you can't have one of the strongest minds being saying, oh, yes, we need to go towards spiritualism, as Einstein saying, now things real, so now. And during this hearing, Judini has one of his special investigators also testify. Her name is Rose Backenberg, and Deer Rose gets up and she testifies, and she says, I know for a fact the table talking seances are held at the White House in the presence of President Coolidge and his family, because let me

grab my pearls. So she also says meanwhile that Senator Supreme Court justices also visit these clairvoyants, and one name in particular comes up, Madame Marcia. Madame Marcia is a clairvoyant to the rich and famous. She's like the mad member of Gene whatever Gene. Madame Gane think Jean Gray, I think she was who right, Reagan and Nancy, She's that era whatever, Yeah, she was like so Macknburgh's testimony.

While she's on the stand, Marcius and some others, these other fortune tellers and mediums are like basically heckling her. People are jumping up and shouting whys right and now Lady Marcia, though, is pretty much kind of holding back. She's waiting for Hudini to get back on the stand. And while Judini's on the stand, this is like in the newspapers. I was reading old newspapers about this. The accounts were insane. So he's up on the stand but

doing his routine. It's just amusing himself, amusing Congress, mocking everybody. And he pulls out an envelope with ten large in it. He's like this, ten tho dollars will go to any medium who can prove any any sensation of perception or any of that stuff you all claim to be able to do. And if I can't like dispute it or prove it to be a sham, I will give you this ten thousand dollars. Lady Marcia, Madam Marcia, this is her opportunity. She jumps up. She's like, now about he's mine,

and he's like, excuse me why. She's like, I knew when President Harding would die and I said that six years before, and I also predicted his election and he's like that doesn't count. Like, no, I said, you have to be should have just done the like Drew Berry Moore firestarter and like to use your mind to set someone. But now hand it over. Well, he's like he toldly dismisses her. She's like, okay, okay, that's cool. How about this when November comes around, you won't be here because

he literally will not be in that room come November. Yeah, that's true. Well, spend has despite of all Judini's best efforts, this bill to band fortune tellers, it almost passes, It misses by a few votes. He literally like almost changes American law. But anyway, November comes around and Hudini drops dead. Literally doesn't make it to November. He drops dead on Halloween,

the last day of October. Spooky. He called it right, good for her, so you know, he can say that they are fakers or liars or whatever, but she called your dad. So anyways, dude dies of a burst appendix, which was the result of him being punched by a fan. And a lot of people have heard this, but they I've often when I heard the story was that a fan walked up to him and said, hey, I can heard you can like tighten your abs and be able to take any punch. That's not the story. The actual

story is what I'm about to tell you. He was in Montreal and he was like giving apach to performances. He invites you all these students from McGill University backstage to talk to him. He wants to basically appeal to the young minds about like, look, be rational, don't not believe all this hoodoo voodoo stuff. And they're like, okay, okay, well tell us more Houdini. And so while he's sitting there, he had hurt his ankle earlier, so he's laying down

on a couch. One of the students, this dude named Jay Gordon Whitehead Ja Guarden Whiteheads, like, bro, I heard you can be punched in the stomach and it's like not even a problem for you. He's like, yeah, that's true. He starts punching him before he can even flex up. And this one of the witnesses said that quote Whitehead punched Judini with four or five terribly forcible, deliberate, well directed blows to his gut. So Hudini, not ready for them,

just sits there writhing in pain. The dude is basically punching his spine through his stomach. So it's like drunken college kid is just wailing on him, tuning him up. Okay, but he gets crazier because in his book The Man Who Killed Hudini, author Don Bell put forward this radical theory that Whitehead was actually an assassin sent by the spiritualists. Madame Marcia, Yes, strikes again. Oh, I'm telling do you can't mess with the you can't mess with organized crime

and psychic at the same time. Exactly. That's just a recipe for disaster. Anyway. So at the time, Bell points out that all these people said that this dude Whitehead have been basically on the hunt for Hudini, going all around Montreal, going you've seen Houdini? Who who is Hudini? Here? I heard Whodini was here, y'all seen him? And so like sometimes when you talk about Whodini, I am imagining like the eighties. Go ahead, it's just a frazzled manager.

Let's see. Okay, So at this point Judini's he dies from the blows and his burst appendix. A couple of years later, actually four years later, Conan Doyle joins his friend. On the other side, he also dies. Now, when Conan Doyle dies, the New York Time writes an obituary and they quote him and I quote, I pledge my honor that spiritualism is true, and I know that spiritualism is infinitely more important than literature, art, politics, or in fact

anything in the world. Right, dude went down. He doubled down all the way and his road that committed to the bit, you know, wrote it to the end. Anyway, during his memorial service, this a medium, because there were plenty of mediums at his funeral. They reported seeing for Arthur Conan Doyle at his own funeral, like, oh, look there he is right there. And then the clairvoyant goes and he told me a message. I'll write it down. I wrote down a little piece of pay but here

you go, missus. Lady Doyle gives me this. Lady Doyle was like, hmmm, this is definitely my husband. But in all honestly her Conan Doyle's son, the one who didn't die, Adrian. He said, the spirit message answers all the tests which my father and mother had agreed upon before his passing. I can only agree with mother that the messages of so intimate a character it cannot be made public, even to our closest friends. So he got nasty right, and then his mother, Lady Jane Conan Doyle, She said, I'm

perfectly convinced that the messages from my husband. I am assured of this fact that he has been here with us, as I am sure that I am speaking to you. It is a happy message, one that is cheering and encouraging. It is rushes and sacred. Oh it's nice. I mean,

whether it's true or not. She it gives her great comfort. So, giving Conan Doyle his last final words, I give you one quote more for him, he said, We who believe in the psychic revelation, and who appreciate that a perception of these things is of the utmost importance, certainly have hurled ourselves against the obstinacy of our time. Possibly we have allowed some of our lives to be gnawed away. And what for the moment seemed a vain and thankless quest.

Only the future can show whether the sacrifice was worth it, So the question is was a sacrifice worth it? Who's to say Houdini? He famously said, I'm just an ordinary mortal trying to get along, and really aren't we all kind of I mean, that's what you always tell me, like be more patient with these people. Everyone's just trying to everyone's doing their own things. So the question is, is in a matter of belief, do you think that what Houdini was doing was good or Sir Arthur Conan

Doyle was doing is good? Is good? Not even a question in this I think that like, in terms of it seems like a lot of I'd say, the bulk of Houdini's motivations seem to be protecting people from criminals. And that's where our crime is, of these like ridiculous criminals who are preying upon people and in a really vulnerable time. And so I can get with that, like

weed out the criminals. But I think that there was also I gather from what you've been telling me that Houdini also kind of wants to be right and tell people what to do. And so I think if you can protect people from being scammed by these con artists, that's one thing, But if you're devaluing their experience. Um, I'll tell you a little quick story about the time I was a psychic. Yeah, in the early days of a O l um. You know how they had all those chat rooms, and my brother here and I and

then we got my mom involved in it too. We used to like, we used to start this chat room called Toady three thousand and I don't know how we came up with the name, but we said we were a psychic cat and yeah, and people would come in yeah, and we'd say, you have to tell us three things. Give us a give us your star sign, your give us a random number, and a question you want answered.

And so we would take the San Francisco Chronicle horoscope and have it ready and they would tell us, like, this is my sign seven, and then they ask a question. You can tell so much by what people ask. So it's like am I going to get that job? Should I break up with this guy? And so we would type out whatever the horoscope of the paper was for their sign. But then we would answer the question of like yeah, you know what like because first of all, if you have to ask is my boyfriend cheating on me?

He's cheating on you, all right, done, So we would kind of feed it and like you're worth more than that. Like so we were basically these therapists and we did it just messing with people. And then it cold grew and so they'd be like waiting like lines, people waiting for their reading from toty three thousands like a cat, and it got so out of control. We're getting messages all the time on that account of like when are you going to be in the chat room? I really

need a reading? And we weren't charging any money, but a lot of times we're just talking people through really crap situations. I mean, in other times we'd mess with people like we're not telling them to jump off of buildings or whatever, we're telling them to do dumb stuff. Um. So, anyway, I think that like people are looking for a connection. That's like our whole purpose here, right, just to connect with other people and other living things. And when you're hurting,

you look for connections. If you find it in something that maybe not everyone believes in, more power to you, you know, as long as you're not getting scammed. So the solace that is offered by a medium. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that if the person is willing to pay an amount that doesn't ruin their finances. Well, I mean, I don't even know. I guess you have to like compensate someone for their time, right, So it's like a therapist. But it's most of these, like the mediums that are

con artists. They're taking ridiculous amounts of money. It's not like the five dollars to remove the witch's curse for the l amen exactly. And then they're always like, well, if you throw in another thousand, then I can do this, and that's you know, that's garbage. But I think, like, so, I see what Houdini's doing, but I think that he also kind of dug message, like tearing other people down to be the smartest one. Now, the harder question is in our battle of Houdini versus Conan Doyle, can you

pick a side? No? Yeah, I can't either, And I think that's what makes it an interesting story. By the way, in New York State, fortune telling is still considered a class being misdemeanor. They got a law on their books and the state books and it's still there, and they just don't enforce it. But you know, that's the sole whole story of America. Like Columbia they got their magical realism. We have magical thinking that is so true. That so true. So what do you think is a ridiculous takeaway here

other than you know, whose side do you take? I think the ridiculous takeaway is that it's not a crime to believe what you believe, as long as you're not pushing it on someone else. It is a crime to take advantage of other people, especially in like a delicate state, you know, if you just come through these atrocities and these pandemics and whatnot. Um, So that's my takeaway, like, let you know, if it makes someone happy, let him believe it. Don't force your beliefs on other people, but

live and let live like that. I'm would be h. Don't take on the mob and Madame Marcia at the same time, that's a probably much more practical take Yeah, don't don't go up against the spiritualists of the Mob. At the same time, thanks for joining us. I'm Elizabeth Dutton, I am Saren Burnett used to quote that and I quote you can find his online. A ridiculous crime on both Twitter and Instagram. You got a tip for us about a ridiculous crime that you'd like to hear about

one maybe that you perpetrated. Hit us up with it. Maybe you want to confess her ridiculous crime that somebody else around you did. Let us know. Email us a ridiculous crime at gmail dot com. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you all next time. Goodbye. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnett, produced and edited by the Grand Mesmerist Dave Coustin researches by the all

seeing eye of Lady Marissa Brown. The theme song is by Voodoo Daddy Thomas Lee and the Witch Dr Travis Dutton. Executive producers are Ben Crystal Ball Bowlan and No Look into My Eyes Brown. Ridiculous Crime is a production of I Heart Radio. Four more podcasts to my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.