Ep 354 - WCF 3: From Sanctuary through Cops to Shared Program

The book is an oral history of a next American revolution . The interviewer is Miguel Guevara . There are 18 interviewees , three of whom you have met so far , and this time a fourth will convey some further activist experiences . But what the hell am I up to ? Well , I am channeling alternative history from another time and another version of our world to you .

Which history , however , emerged from conditions very like our own . And why am I doing this ? Well , I think the oral history says things , that is , I hear it saying things that I think warrant attention . But perhaps my saying that is redundant . Of course I think it warrants attention , else I wouldn't be doing this .

How about if someone else says something like that her own way ? Perhaps that will resonate or motivate the effort more effectively . So , before I convey Chapter 4 of the Wind Cries Freedom , I want to start this episode by channeling a reaction to the book from yet another of its participants , leslie Zinn , who happens to herself be a very experienced media person .

Here is her organizer's take on the oral history she wrote . Before offering my take on the Wind Cries Freedom WCF , I should acknowledge up front that I was one of its interviewees . I was also , from the very beginning , a committed member of the Revolutionary Participatory Society Movement , or RPS .

Reviewing a project I'm woven into may seem awkward , even self-serving , but if it reads as narcissistic , so be it . I prefer to think of it as honesty , because of course I want people to hear about our revolution . Miguel Guevara , as both the interviewer and the editor , sought out my views alongside many others for his oral history

. I agreed , though without much expectation , that my contribution would matter . When the book finally arrived a year later , with Miguel's heartfelt note of thanks , I set it aside . I had lived through the events he chronicled , I knew many of the voices , and in those transitional years after the upheavals , life was full to the brim with other urgent tasks .

It wasn't until I fell ill for a few days , too restless for daytime television , that I cracked it open . Almost immediately I saw its potential , not just as an archive of what we did , but as a resource for activists everywhere , for anyone who doubts the possibility of winning a new world or wonders what winning could mean in practice .

Guevara's project is a provocation . It challenges us to see our own choices and how they might contribute to something larger .

Reading on , I realized it was valuable , even for someone like me , a lifer in RPS , not as nostalgia , not as a self-flattering snapshot , but as a reminder of something basic Many eyes , many voices are always better than one , even within an intensely commingled venture like RPS . Those voices weren't redundant , they were additive .

They revealed paths I hadn't walked , angles I hadn't seen . The stories ranged widely . Some interviewees traced their radicalization back to the 60s , others to the 2020s , still others through RPS itself .

Together , we explained how we learned to communicate without alienating , how we pursued reforms without losing sight of revolution , and how we avoided the traps of sectarianism , electoral fetishism or catastrophic violence , electoral fetishism or catastrophic violence .

We shared a vision of where we wanted to arrive equity , justice , solidarity , self-management but we got there by different routes . Miguel pulled those threads together the 2016 election and its fallout , rps's startup , its rallies , its conventions , its experiments in chapter building , demands , vision and program .

We recounted victories and compromises , consciousness raising , struggles over race , gender , class , environment . We told of shadow institutions built to prefigure the future . But here's the thing Next , american Revolution isn't a novel . There's no plot arc , no romance , no gossip , no births , no funerals .

What it has are first-hand accounts of becoming revolutionary and of collective action forcing systemic change . Personality is secondary , the politics is the point . Throughout , we admitted misgivings , we spoke of persistence despite doubts . We offered criticism alongside celebration , warnings alongside hopes . The texture of it is testimony , personal , yes , but also evidentiary .

And Miguel never presents it as a manual . This is not quote live like these folks do what they did . End quote Context matters . Whether we were marching , striking , occupying , running in elections , building sanctuaries , we were describing one path among many possible ones , not the only way , only way .

Miguel's craft was to weave those specific stories into chapters that highlight lessons that others might adapt , refine or discard . Still , I believe , unapologetically , that RPS's values are foundational for liberation in any context Equity , justice , self-management , solidarity , diversity , sustainability , peace .

You can't sidestep these and expect to win a world worth living in . What struck me most , reading while flu-ridden , was how non-linear our path really was . There wasn't one road to one destination . We were improvising , we were multiplying , different turns were possible . We were multiplying . Different turns were possible and many were taken .

Another revolution in another time or place wouldn't replicate ours , but it can reflect on it , as Miguel intended , and extract what's useful . Imagine replaying history's tape from 2025 a hundred times .

Each run would diverge , some faster to success , some collapsing under war , climate catastrophe , plague but most , I believe , would still reach liberation through different choices , different encounters , different obstacles . That's why an oral history matters , not as a blueprint , but as an offering of possibilities , which brings me to my hope for the book .

Like Miguel , I want the Wind Cries Freedom to make the very idea of revolution tangible , not utopian . I want it to spark activism wherever people are struggling To test that . I read it not as the hardened veteran that I am , but as the anxious young woman I was over a quarter of a century ago .

From that vantage , it felt like a provocation , not a how-to , but a how to think about it , a how to work on it with others . In that sense , guevara's oral history is less a retrospective than a forward-looking tool . It doesn't close the book on our evolution . It extends a hand across time and space .

My recommendation Take the hand , read the history , then decide for yourself . Okay . So with that as motivation , here's Chapter 4 of the Wind Cries Freedom

. It's titled From Sanctuary to Shared Program . In it we meet Bill Hampton , mayor of New York , and he and the interviewer , miguel Guevara , discuss immigration struggles , dealing with repression , seeking a program and finally getting RPS going To start . Miguel asks Bill Hampton .

You threw yourself into immigration struggles and the fight against racism and from there into the heart of RPS . You took on the brutal contradictions of urban life , transit planning , gentrification .

You stood with those claiming the right to the city , you ran for office and now you are mayor of New York City , sitting in an office once built to serve wealth and suppress dissent . So let me ask you plainly do you remember when you first became radical Under Obama ?

Much as I was inspired when he first won , I had grown horrified at the racist resurgence that his winning provoked , which in turn produced Black Lives Matter and sensitized many to Islamophobia and immigration politics . Later , joining campaigns for Sanctuary in my own town and its local church greatly affected me .

Feeling the need for those efforts to connect with other emerging efforts primed me for RPS , and the rest seemed to flow inexorably . Getting a big boost from working for Mamdani , I never sat down and said to myself I want to be radical , I want to be revolutionary . Instead , something inside took over , and that was that .

Miguel asks what caused you to think it was worth your time , that we could win ? I have no idea . Given my background of earlier experiences , it would have been way more likely . I think that I would have thought trying to win a new world was idiocy .

Miguel responds can you in that case tell us what early RPS events or campaigns most personally moved and inspired you ? The first was a sanctuary for immigrants who were slated to be

deported . The site was a church in San Antonio , texas . The church had an incredibly courageous pastor , choir and congregation . I was there visiting a friend and trying to learn . Looking back , this was our Selma , our Birmingham , Alongside Trump's ICE agents .

San Antonio's sheriff so disrespected anyone who could side with immigrants that he felt a few swings of police batons would clear a path to the intended deportees . We knew we had to show him that we would not be moved not easily , not at all . Police came and their vans congregated .

The sheriff announced they were going to take the immigrant families who were receiving sanctuary away for deportation . They had their vans and were set to follow Trump's orders . The police stood ten abreast and about five deep . They faced the church entrance , all holding extra-long clubs .

The pastor was at the top of the church steps Maybe 50 congregants and the full choir was there with him , and myself as well . The pastor told the officials that to take the immigrant families , the police would have to go through the church's extended local family . He then said and I will never forget it Come ahead .

If you must Brutalize our limbs , shove our beaten bodies aside . You will not break our spirit . You will have to assault us and again and again you may even have to kill us .

We will not be moved in our minds , we will only be moved in our bodies , and even then only if you brutalize our limbs and torsos into physical silence and shove our trembling husks aside . If you feel all that is warranted , come ahead . The sheriff , disbelieving and unmoved , replied you have two minutes to vacate .

After that we will forcefully vacate you and take the illegals . At that moment everyone locked arms , before the police could even process that much . The doors of the church opened and there were rows and rows of congregants also with locked arms . You could barely see the immigrant families in the distance at the pulpit If we stuck to our stated intent .

To reach the pulpit would require carnage . The church choir began to sing . Require carnage ? The church choir began to sing . We Shall Not Be Moved . We Shall Not Be Moved . The sheriff was a Trump supporter with a big red MAGA hat . He had buttons and all . He may as well have been Bill Connor reincarnated .

Likely most or all of the police that had accompanied him had hoped , on the way to the church that they would see some action . They were mostly Trump supporters too , but not all the deputies . Two of them sat down with us . We welcomed them , tears of togetherness in our eyes . They must have thought they would be unemployed by day's end , if not worse .

But they sat . The sheriff knew that to try to breach the human barrier would only succeed if we crumbled and ran . The pastor said no , we won't run , not even close . But the sheriff thought that of course we would run A few big swings of their overlong batons and we would scurry off like whipped rats .

So the sheriff and deputies marched into the human barrier , striking viciously . Blood flowed , carnage spread but no one ran and the singing grew louder , deep in our hearts . We know People in the front were quickly bloodied , physically bowed , but nothing more . As the officials literally tromped on us , there were grunts and moans , but few screams .

And then , incredibly , with the choir singing and with more folks from within the church coming out to lock arms and with onlookers clearly horrified , the defenders , including myself , actually reached up to embrace our tormentors . Our bear hugs diminished their capacity for brutal swings . There was even a strange intimacy about it .

We weren't begging , we weren't fighting . We were offering a degree of understanding . We didn't fight hate with hate , but with compassion and steadfast intent . We didn't fight racism with racism , but with solidarity . After a bit , some deputies simply relented , and then the sheriff did too . He had to .

Yes , they could have physically demolished us , leaving a battlefield of blasted souls in their wake , but nothing less would succeed in taking the families , and that was simply too much . Less would succeed in taking the families , and that was simply too much .

A retreat began and then , incredibly , the pastor , bent , bloodied but not beaten , calmly invited the sheriff and his key deputies . If they wished to come into the church , they just had to leave their batons and their guns with their fellows outside . If they did that , they were welcome to talk to the immigrant families and the pastor . Tears were flowing .

Medics were aiding people and , in what I suspect was a shock for the pastor , like for the rest of us , after what seemed like an eternity of just standing there staring at the bloodied pastor , the sheriff took off his gun and walked with the pastor into the church .

I don't know what their talk inside was about , but the next day the sheriff stood before dozens of press . He said quote I heard the illegal stories , I heard their supporters , I heard their pastor . I will no longer recognize federal orders , or any orders at all , to arrest immigrants . He dropped his mic and walked off .

It was the beginning of the end , not just in Texas and in the US but around the world , of the vicious anti-immigrant mindset . It was the shortest , longest press conference ever . Fierce conflicts with many horrible losses had marred prior years . Other sheriffs didn't budge . Many kids were separated from parents and violated . Many activists were clubbed and jailed .

But San Antonio Sunday broke that pattern and brought an end to the blame the immigrant , shun the immigrant , beat the immigrant , cage the immigrant , expel the immigrant , kill the immigrant era . It set the stage for humane policy regarding the coming year's migrations to escape climate catastrophes .

San Antonio's sheriff may or may not have found his humanity , but either way , activism won and that has got to be the lesson , the message that lasts when police or thugs or whoever , club jail or worse not how much it hurt , but how we beat it rose above it , came out of it larger and stronger .

Best case when those who are paid to impose rule refuse their employers and break bread with presumed violators . The end of unjust rule is coming . For me , this was such an incredible sight , such an incredible event , so meaningful in so many ways , that I have to recount it in answer to your question . The bottom line was people can work together .

People can win gains . The question how big could those gains become ? Miguel replied Bill . Years later I sat with the sheriff for a retrospective interview . He cried as he remembered the scene at the church After that confrontation he didn't just reflect on it , he transformed and became an RPS member .

But that conversion aside earlier , what was your view of the police Before San Antonio , miguel ? I hated cops . To me , my family and my friends , cops spelled danger . They brought death . When they came , we went Our way .

To deal with cops before San Antonio was to imagine fighting fire with fire , eye to eye , toe to toe , call them pigs , throw a rock , daydream of beating them up , but then turn and run like hell .

The sanctuary didn't make me a pacifist , but I saw how militant nonviolence plus cautious compassion could disarm and defeat what would have totally demolished any attempt to fight back , divide the police , defuse the , finally make the police into allies . I learned that when we do that ,

their powerful paymasters become pitiful . To do it larger , what could facilitate that ? And to stay involved ? And to develop lasting ties , what could nurture that ? Not to spend our time describing their strengths , their violence ? The lesson to take when they attack is not how they look , how tough they are , how much it hurts . That helps them .

The lesson to take is how to grow resistance , how to make repression cost them more than it costs us . Miguel asks what about cursing cops ? I won't sugarcoat it . Sometimes it does feel good . Letting out that rough frustration , especially when you're face to face with someone who has power over your life , can be cathartic .

There's something about shouting you pig , get out of my face . That breaks the conditioning many of us grew up with our ingrained reflex to obey , to submit , to nod politely even when everything in you is screaming no . But when cursing is our go-to , it's emotion , not strategy , that runs the show .

That kind of outburst tends to close off the possibility of change , to shut the door on anything resembling mutual recognition . When you address officers as fellow citizens , fellow human beings , even when they're being used to enforce unjust laws , something different can happen .

You're not submitting , but you're also not denying their capacity to listen , to reconsider , to change . If we'd all met the sheriff in San Antonio with curses and contempt , if we'd confirmed every expectation he had of who we were , I doubt the man you later came to know would have ever emerged .

Miguel replies I can only begin to grasp what you lived through in San Antonio , bill . Just hearing it now , my hands tremble . I don't know if I feel rage , joy or both . Still we are in the present . Tell me the RPS program . How did that first begin to take shape ?

Well , when you've lived through something like San Antonio , when you see people come together in the face of violence and intimidation , not with hatred but with determination and hope , you start thinking about the future . You start thinking about how to build something that lasts . So , yes , the conversation began to shift toward program and also lasting connections .

It wasn't abstract , it wasn't academics or even seasoned activists off in some small room . It was grounded in what people were living and fighting through every day . And it was those people you had the Sanders campaign planting some of the early seeds .

Then came the energy of Occupy , black Lives Matter and those incredible surges in Greece , spain and the global women's marches . These weren't disconnected moments . They were part of one deep but vague current . I was deeply involved in Occupy myself . But let's be honest , trump's second victory hit like a punch in the gut .

He doubled down on division , appointing climate deniers , white supremacists , misogynists , folks who seemed determined to drag the country to a far darker time . Eliminate vaccines . It was easy to despair . A lot of people did . But in time what became clear was this that people hadn't signed up for fascism .

They'd been confused , lied to , but deep down they still wanted something better . And that's when the resistance found its footing again . But the real challenge was bigger than just resisting . It was articulating a vision , something to move toward . We couldn't just play defense . We had to begin to build the future .

In the midst of the fight , prior to RPS , a lot of program was being offered Sanders , black Lives Matter , the Women's Marches . They all had program . Even so , most of the political class and even much of the left was still stuck reacting to Trump's every outrage . We weren't lifting up alternatives .

If you go back and look at the media at the time , you'll find a hundred pieces on Trump's antics for every one on what movements were actually proposing . That had to change . We needed to shift from resistance to reconstruction , from outrage to offering . That meant building organization .

That could feature multiple issues , multiple tactics , but for a clear , encompassing direction . So when Trump severely escalated deportations , some of the most visionary activists didn't just protest . They organized sanctuaries , whole cities , churches , campuses , even private homes stood up and said you'll have to go through us .

You may remember the earliest airport demonstrations , that immediate , spontaneous stand when the first travel bans had much earlier hit . And in Texas , when a mosque burned , you may remember a Jewish temple handed over their keys . That kind of solidarity isn't policy , it's moral architecture . But translating it into enduring grassroots structures that took more time .

Eventually , churches , colleges and homes became places of refuge , and the people who defended them didn't just guard . They shared culture , they built trust . Who defended them didn't just guard . They shared culture , they built trust . They learned what began as resistance became , little by little , the scaffolding of a new kind of community .

Then came something remarkable Major athletes began opening up arenas literal arenas to welcome migrants and refugees . It was a gesture of care and of power , reminiscent of what the New Orleans Saints Arena became after Hurricane Katrina , but now infused with activism , education and celebration . And it worked . Deportation plans stalled .

More people's hearts and minds shifted . Mutual aid , once a slogan , became a lived ethic and , to be honest , that ethic had been missing from some corners of the anti-fascist resistance . Another front was confronting Trump's appointees . Activists didn't just call them names , they investigated , they explained , they offered better alternatives .

They made clear it wasn't just about who sits in the seat , but what vision the seat serves . They even went to the homes of these powerful figures , not with violence , but with clarity and purpose . Here is where the decisions are being made . Here is who

they affect . We flipped the script . It built connections .

I remember in Philadelphia , the Eagles football field tent shelters spread across the field , kids playing , athletes working out A strange and beautiful scene and through it all , people learning to share , building something real , suddenly avoiding climate catastrophe , rebuilding from storms and pushing back against repression . These weren't isolated issues .

They were a shared responsibility . Mutual aid replaced resignation . People stopped casting suspicion on every working class person with questions about immigration and instead began building bridges . We didn't shy away from hard conversations , we stepped into them .

I remember one March we walked four miles from a struggling neighborhood straight to the Secretary of Defense's mansion and when we got there I took the bullhorn and said it plain this man is wrecking the planet , waging wars , pushing hate . We know where he lives and we want the world to know too .

Not to intimidate , but to expose , to say we see you , we have better ideas and we're not going anywhere . 2,000 people blocked suburban streets in front of this cabinet member's home . Neighbors watched Cameras everywhere . Here come the police . Great , what are they going to do ? Tear gas , scarsdale ? I interject .

Do you wonder if these kinds of resistance could arise in our world ? What would need to happen for these types of activism to not only arise and appear widely , but to persist and grow ? As I convey the interviewee's words , I feel this question in many shapes over and over . Do you , miguel , asks ?

But there was another dimension to the efforts around immigration , wasn't there , bill , bearing on how it was understood and addressed , yes , much opposition to immigration stemmed from fears about wages , jobs or , at its worst , straight-up racism . And yes , those elements were there , no doubt . But over time we started to realize they weren't the full story .

In fact , they might not even have been near the heart of it . Ironically , it was Trump and the far right who seemed to grasp something deeper , before many of us on the left got it .

They recognized that some communities and individuals harbored a fear that ran beneath economics and skin color , a fear that immigration might upend familiar ways of life , that a sudden influx of people with different customs , languages , holidays and norms could dilute cultural identity and create social friction . Was that always a rational fear ?

No , was it always free from prejudice ? Certainly not . But was it real and sincerely felt by many ? Absolutely , and that mattered . The right saw that and they exploited it . They amplified cultural unease and then channeled it into an economic anxiety and racial hostility .

They turned a legitimate , though hugely exaggerated , discomfort about being what they called replaced into a divisive weapon . When the left finally came to grips with this , we worked to bridge those cultural divides . It wasn't easy , honestly . In the beginning most attempts were awkward and ineffective . But we learned .

We began proposing arrangements that didn't just integrate immigrants into existing communities , but honored the traditions and identities of both groups . The aim wasn't assimilation through erasure , but coexistence through respect . That was the RPS approach . We didn't vilify those who feared change , nor did we sanctify those who demanded it .

Those who feared change , nor did we sanctify those who demanded it . We listened , we addressed the real material concerns and we tackled racism head-on when it appeared . But we also leaned into the broader cultural dimension , because you don't win people over by dismissing their fears . You join with them by understanding their fears and showing a better way forward .

Miguel asks were there other important focuses in RPS's early days ? One of the most consequential efforts , especially for its long-term implications , was how it responded to the proposed budget increases for the military and for police departments . Instead of just saying no , activists painted a picture of a better yes .

We highlighted how those funds could be reallocated not just to avoid harm but to do good . We called for changes in police policy budgeting and accountability . We proposed converting underused or decommissioned military bases into low-income housing , funded not by charity but by redirecting military dollars . One of our slogans became quote build houses , not bombers .

Another was quote housing instead of corpses . That one got attention . We proposed that soldiers who helped build homes would get first dibs if they wanted to live there . We didn't just ask ourselves what were we against . We asked who we could include in the solution . Could our demands meet short-term needs and still reflect long-term values ?

Could we appeal to workers , communities and even , yes , to summon law enforcement and the military ? That was the RPS challenge . That was the RPS promise . The aim wasn't just the projects themselves , it was creating lasting connections , durable local ties . We invited police officers to neighborhood meetings , even into people's homes .

It may sound absurd to some , like it would have to me years earlier , but we said let's talk , let's figure out how to make our streets safe for everyone . At first hardly any officers showed up , but gradually more did . We organized at police stations , on military bases , not just in protest but in dialogue . And let me be clear , it wasn't easy .

We got pushback and , yes , we took our share of beatings , but we kept showing up because we believed it mattered . This is even on the road to RPS , not just later for RPS itself . I interject Is this unreal , make-believe , magical thinking , or could this happen ? Could real people in our world act as we hear ? These people in their world acted ?

And would it be wise Remember ? Their world was like ours until it diverged . Bill continues . After the earlier murder of George Floyd , stopping police violence remained urgent , but later we paired that urgency with vision .

We started seeing police and military personnel not as unreachable enemies , but as people caught in systems , tools of the system , often vicious , yes , but also potential partners in its transformation .

We had to relentlessly call out racism , sexism and class oppression , but we also had to genuinely believe that no human being was beyond reach , which included those in uniform . That broader spirit of inclusion without compromise began to build momentum as we moved from resistance to reimagining .

Grassroots assemblies started forming , neighborhood by neighborhood , workplace by workplace . But it didn't start with mass meetings or resolutions . It started with conversations , with listening , and it looked different depending on where you were . Rural Iowa didn't move like the Bronx , and that was good . Local initiative was the point .

I remember , after Trump's first victory , and the second time too , wondering was it enough to just fight back , to just resist in a fragmented way , issue by issue , crisis by crisis . He acts , we react , courageous , necessary , but where would that wind up ?

Could we build something more that connected the dots , something multi-issue , multi-tactic , big enough to both block injustice and build a better world . The answer , eventually , was yes , but it took time . It took losses and it took learning from each of those losses , and when it came to how we organized what structures we built , we had to innovate .

The old models weren't working . We needed new approaches that welcomed diversity , practiced collective leadership and protected against the traps of sectarianism and intellectual elitism . That meant opening space for people to speak who hadn't always had the floor and making sure those who were used to dominating conversations learned to listen .

Because here's the truth Many folks , especially from marginalized backgrounds , were rightly skeptical . They'd seen movements hijacked . They'd seen well-meaning people become gatekeepers . They worried that if we leaned too heavily on intellectual frameworks , the folks with the most privilege and education would take over .

That's a real , a valid concern , but the answer wasn't to ditch vision or program . The answer was to build in safeguards , to develop inclusive methods that elevated every voice .

In time , we came to understand how certain policies and structures could inadvertently lift up what we later came to call the coordinator class , the professionals , the administrators , the experts .

Back then , though , we didn't always have the language , so sometimes the fear of hierarchy just led to avoiding any planning at all , and that created a vacuum and in that vacuum , the loudest or most confident voices tended to fill the space Exactly the outcome folks were trying to avoid .

So , yes , it was frustrating , but it was also real and we had to face it with humility .

If we wanted an inclusive movement , we had to make it work for everyone , not just those with time , education or rhetorical skill . We had to build something genuinely democratic , something that belonged to all of us . That was the road to RPS . Miguel asks what about actual program ? The road to RPS . Miguel asks what about actual program ?

People's responses to program , at least early on , were often scattered . One group would fully commit to a cause , reproductive rights , say , or eliminating the electoral college . Another would pour everything into defending immigrants or perhaps fighting for affordable housing .

Still others threw their weight behind tackling pollution , pushing for a wealth tax , resisting the minimum wage or demanding community control of police . These were all deeply important efforts . Each spoke to real needs and injustices , but what we saw was that folks often stuck it to their own lane , their own issue , and , as a result , activism happened in silos .

You'd hear it in conversations , quote you do your thing , I'll do mine .

That kind of fragmentation wasn't just inefficient , it fostered a mentality of me first , or at least my issue first , and understandably , some folks worried that calls for unity might mean top-down conformity , that coming together might end up looking like the kind of rigid sectarian unity that history has shown us doesn't work .

Now , even with the best participatory intentions , it doesn't help to avoid reflection and critical thinking . Still , I want to emphasize that what people were expressing wasn't , in my view , anti-intellectualism .

It was a pushback against a certain kind of gatekeeping , a resistance to people using education or access to dominate decision-making , often in subtle but powerful ways , and resistance to that , while sometimes messy in how it showed up , was justified . I remember some of those arguments . You'd have someone well-spoken , polished , advocating what they called reason .

But it was their reasoning , their conclusions and often their control , and the response at times came off like a rejection of thought itself . But that wasn't really it . It was a rejection of the idea that quote reason belonged to a few and that everyone else had to fall in line .

It wasn't about turning away from intellect , it was about insisting on equity and who gets to use it . Over time we started to hear the deeper concerns , feel the undercurrents . We began to ask who's getting heard , who's setting the terms of the debate , and as more voices entered , as more experiences were brought to the table , a better balance began to form .

It didn't happen overnight and even today we're still working on it , but one of RPS's early lessons , especially in analyzing Trump and everything that came with him , was to recognize that what looked like anti-intellectualism was in fact a reflection of class tensions .

It was about who had access , who had time , who had voice , not about rejecting thinking time , who had voice , not about rejecting thinking , miguel asks . So what attitude toward program emerged , bill , from all the many currents of thought ? I remember a speech that really brought it all home .

It went something like this quote we must combine campaigns to end deporting immigrants through local airports with campaigns to clean up plumes of toxic waste from those same airports . We must mesh efforts to curb CO2 emissions with efforts to protect the poor from rising waters and to create and ensure good jobs and new housing .

We must combine ending the use of fossil fuels with preserving the incomes and improving the circumstances of coal and oil workers . Community centers must feature speakers on women's rights and also on wage struggles . Activists for prison reform must support and be supported by activists for solar power .

Activists for electoral renovation must support and be supported by activists for military reduction . It wasn't rhetoric , it was sincere desire . What RPS realized and what many of us came to embrace , was that the only way forward was together .

Those working to end war needed to link arms with those fighting for immigrant rights , who , in turn , stood with environmental organizers , who stood with public health advocates , and on and on . Each cause had to strengthen the others . The goal wasn't to flatten differences . The goal was to weave them together into something stronger .

This is what drove us together toward encompassing organization . That was not imposed from on high . It was initiated from below . Miguel asks as calls for program began to resonate more widely , certain proposals started to gain real traction On the national stage . There was strong momentum to address inequality by raising the minimum wage .

That opened the door for broader support to increase taxes on the wealthiest among us . And then came an even deeper , current one , calling not just for fairer pay but for shorter work days and shorter work weeks . The idea was simple but powerful let's create full employment and more leisure for all without reducing incomes .

At the same time , people were demanding a better quality of life for everyone , health care for all , housing for all , deeper but also more accessible education , including canceling student debt and making college free .

There were broad-based demands to shift public spending away from war and surveillance toward rebuilding our infrastructure and expanding public services and offering free child care .

Now , these weren't yet a full-fledged blueprint for a new set of foundational institutions , but many folks already had long-term vision in mind and , maybe more importantly , in practice , the pursuit of these aims pushed us in that direction . These conversations , these campaigns , they became stepping stones to deeper discussions about how we wanted our society to work .

I might be rambling a bit here , but let me be clear about the core idea .

We hoped and needed that , even as single-issue movements continued to fight for their priorities whether around war , immigration or climate and even as organizations with specific , focused missions , like Greenpeace say , stayed focused on their work , they would all also connect to something broader .

We wanted everyone to sign on to a shared agenda , to lend their support not just to their own fight but to all the fights that pointed toward justice and dignity for all people . That kind of unity had been missing . We didn't just need smart policy proposals . We had those . What we needed was to share those proposals with each other across our movements .

That meant you would commit to support campaigns , not only for what spoke most directly to your personal experience , but also for the fights that spoke most clearly to others . That was how you build solidarity . That was how you build solidarity . That was how you build solidarity . That was how you build power .

Those who focused on war would support those focused on immigration . Who would support those focused on global warming , who would support those focused on racial justice , gender equality , economic democracy , and on and on . It was about weaving a web of mutual aid and shared commitment . That evolving sentiment called forth overarching organizational means . That became RPS .

One powerful pre-RPS example stood out . Labor activism was then on the rise . At the same time , there was a groundswell of campus support for Palestine and growing opposition to war spending . For a while , those streams ran in parallel , but then they began to converge . They found strength in one another .

That kind of alliance was what we needed , miguel asks why was it that some activists began to feel the need , no , the hunger for an organization like RPS , one that wouldn't silo , struggle , wouldn't bow to the habit of picking just one oppression to fight , but would rise to face them all together ?

What made those comrades different from the ones who kept their heads down and clung to the old , single-issue ways . Was it deeper understanding ? Was it defiance , an unwillingness to live by the rules of a dying world ?

Or was it something else entirely , a militant clarity that named each barrier in its path and then stepped forward , steady and unflinching , to tear it down ? I wish I had a clean answer for all that . Honestly , I don't know . Could have been insight , could have been confidence , maybe even some stubborn hopefulness , maybe all the above .

Whatever it was , the truth is it happened , and really that's why you're here during these interviews , isn't it ? To figure it out . So that's the end of chapter four

. And just a little note don't go looking for the book at the store or on Amazon or wherever . It's still sitting on my computer . It's still being refined and who knows if it will ever be published . And all that said this is Mike Albert signing off until next time for Revolution Z .