Remembering the American Revolution at 250

WEBVTT
 
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 Hello, everyone.
 
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 Welcome to the Revolution
 
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 Two-Fifty podcast.
 
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 I'm Bob Allison.
 
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 I chair the Rev Two-Fifty Advisory Group.
 
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 We are a consortium of
 
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 seventy-five organizations
 
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 in Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of
 
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 beginnings of american
 
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 independence our guests
 
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 today are abby chandler
 
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 abby's been on the podcast
 
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 before she's also a member
 
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 of the massachusetts
 
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 two-fifth commission she is
 
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 the editor of h nets
 
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 remembering the revolution
 
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 of two-fifty collection
 
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 which is what we'll be
 
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 talking about today
 
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 associate professor of
 
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 history at the university
 
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 of massachusetts at lowell
 
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 thanks abby for coming back and
 
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 and Marianne Holdscombe,
 
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 who is an associate
 
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 professor of history at
 
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 Kennesaw State University in Georgia.
 
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 Her big book is Remembering John Adams,
 
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 the Second President in History, Memory,
 
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 and Popular Culture,
 
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 now working on a book about historical...
 
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 Did he freeze memory at historical sites,
 
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 focusing on the based on a
 
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 true based on a true story,
 
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 remembering the American
 
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 Revolution through film.
 
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 So thank you both for coming on.
 
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 Abby,
 
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 why don't you tell us a bit about the
 
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 H net project of
 
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 remembering the American
 
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 Revolution at two fifty?
 
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 So this is a project that
 
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 started to come about
 
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 around two years ago.
 
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 H Early America is one of
 
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 the more active of the
 
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 various HNet networks.
 
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 And I'm one of the two
 
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 review editors there.
 
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 along with Patrick Luck.
 
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 And then Darcy Fryer is our
 
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 collective all-round expert
 
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 at everything else.
 
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 And we were approached by a
 
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 member of the H-Net board
 
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 to suggest that since we
 
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 were coming up on the two
 
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 hundred fiftieth
 
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 anniversary of the
 
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 Declaration of Independence
 
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 and the start of the American Revolution,
 
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 that we think about
 
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 creating a journal that
 
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 would be published
 
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 on the HNet platform.
 
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 And so those are our origins.
 
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 And we started out by
 
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 talking about what we
 
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 wanted to look at with this journal.
 
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 And we eventually came up
 
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 with five different categories
 
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 global revolution,
 
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 looking at the revolution as a global war,
 
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 texts of revolution,
 
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 looking at the documents
 
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 that came out of this period,
 
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 how people have interpreted
 
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 them over time, revolution or not,
 
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 looking at loyalists in all their forms.
 
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 Remembering Revolution,
 
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 looking at how we have
 
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 remembered the Revolution
 
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 over the last two hundred
 
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 and fifty years.
 
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 And finally, Revolution for a New Century.
 
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 Where is teaching the
 
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 American Revolution going
 
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 in the next couple of years?
 
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 And we certainly we've had
 
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 conversations with some of
 
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 the scholars we're working with.
 
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 If you don't quite perfectly
 
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 fit into one category, that is just fine.
 
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 We do have some papers that
 
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 draw from a couple of the categories.
 
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 But we thought by having those categories,
 
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 it was a way of thinking
 
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 about all of the different
 
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 ways in which we are
 
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 remembering the revolution
 
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 and how we might go about doing that.
 
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 So there's certainly a lot there.
 
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 And how long do you project
 
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 that this series will be
 
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 going or that this journal
 
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 will be running?
 
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 Until the three hundredth, maybe?
 
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 So our plan is to definitely
 
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 go on publishing at least
 
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 through twenty twenty six.
 
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 After that,
 
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 we have not made any definite decisions.
 
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 So we will see where we are
 
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 in twenty twenty six.
 
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 It's one of the exciting
 
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 things that happened with
 
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 the bicentennial is a lot
 
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 of new scholarship came out.
 
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 So this seems like a good
 
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 way to showcase what's
 
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 coming out now about the
 
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 revolution in these different ways.
 
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 That's also what we were thinking.
 
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 And because we're publishing on H-Net,
 
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 it is an open access journal.
 
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 You do not have to have a subscription.
 
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 You do not have to have access to JSTOR.
 
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 So we wanted the articles to
 
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 be open to everyone.
 
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 But also in looking to...
 
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 scholars,
 
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 we have spent as much time
 
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 talking to people working in museums.
 
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 We're also talking to people
 
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 who are teaching at the K
 
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 through twelve level.
 
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 And our goal, again,
 
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 was as much as anything to
 
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 create a document of who is
 
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 doing right now.
 
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 Right, right.
 
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 We're talking with Abby Chandler,
 
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 who is the editor of H&S'
 
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 Remembering the Revolution,
 
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 a two-fifty collection,
 
 00:05:05.175 --> 00:05:06.377
 and Marian Holtzcum,
 
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 who has written the first
 
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 article in it based on a true story,
 
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 Remembering the American
 
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 Revolution Through Film.
 
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 It's a great article, Marian,
 
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 because it does talk about
 
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 one of the issues we've
 
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 been kicking around.
 
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 There aren't any really good
 
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 movies about the revolution,
 
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 and you've found some
 
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 movies you talk about in some detail.
 
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 I want to ask us for
 
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 choosing what you would
 
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 talk about in the article.
 
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 Well,
 
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 it was a little difficult to decide
 
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 on the films.
 
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 I wanted to start early and
 
 00:05:41.103 --> 00:05:43.384
 found this nineteen forties film,
 
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 The Howards of Virginia,
 
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 that I had seen years ago
 
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 and remembered the cameo
 
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 appearance appearance by Jefferson.
 
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 And I thought, well, you know,
 
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 this this is an interesting
 
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 place to start.
 
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 The whole idea of the paper
 
 00:05:59.165 --> 00:06:00.726
 came about because I did
 
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 have a professor who once said,
 
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 why aren't there any good
 
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 movies about the American Revolution?
 
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 And I wasn't sure at that
 
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 point that I agreed with him about that.
 
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 But yeah,
 
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 the numbers are pretty slim when
 
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 it comes to really good
 
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 films about the revolution.
 
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 And Abby was a great help in
 
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 directing me toward Mary
 
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 Silliman's War because I
 
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 had not been familiar with that.
 
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 I guess I went through
 
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 school before that film was
 
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 something that was used in the classroom.
 
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 So it was nice to include
 
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 that one as well.
 
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 Yes.
 
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 It's an interesting film.
 
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 And you make the point that
 
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 good history doesn't
 
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 necessarily translate into good film.
 
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 Right.
 
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 Right.
 
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 Exactly.
 
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 Yeah.
 
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 I think, yeah,
 
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 the problem with the American Revolution,
 
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 one of them is that you don't have film.
 
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 You don't have photographs.
 
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 And so you're trying to recreate a world.
 
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 What I've discovered in
 
 00:07:08.072 --> 00:07:10.654
 listening to the making of
 
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 fill in the blank film is
 
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 that they're always very
 
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 proud about the costume details,
 
 00:07:17.408 --> 00:07:20.192
 the prop details and showing off that,
 
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 you know,
 
 00:07:20.512 --> 00:07:23.593
 these were the actual buttons of
 
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 a British on a British soldier.
 
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 Yeah.
 
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 Exactly.
 
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 Right.
 
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 But history doesn't always
 
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 become a part of that.
 
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 So the, the, the artifacts are great.
 
 00:07:37.105 --> 00:07:38.206
 And I think it's partly
 
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 because the history is so big.
 
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 Yes.
 
 00:07:40.982 --> 00:07:42.562
 And the mythology has become
 
 00:07:43.122 --> 00:07:46.142
 so entrenched that it's
 
 00:07:46.163 --> 00:07:47.704
 hard to tell a good story sometimes.
 
 00:07:48.303 --> 00:07:49.824
 But then we don't even do
 
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 well with the mythology.
 
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 I'm thinking about films
 
 00:07:51.625 --> 00:07:52.805
 like Spartacus and others
 
 00:07:52.845 --> 00:07:55.206
 about ancient Rome, ancient Greece,
 
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 which are both exciting films.
 
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 I don't know how good they are.
 
 00:07:59.045 --> 00:08:00.107
 I'm not a historian of
 
 00:08:00.166 --> 00:08:01.226
 ancient Greece or Rome.
 
 00:08:01.247 --> 00:08:02.826
 But it's interesting.
 
 00:08:02.867 --> 00:08:05.168
 And you do talk about one film, Revolution,
 
 00:08:05.208 --> 00:08:06.067
 with Al Pacino that
 
 00:08:06.088 --> 00:08:07.367
 apparently made him stop
 
 00:08:07.468 --> 00:08:08.428
 acting for a while.
 
 00:08:08.488 --> 00:08:09.528
 It was such a bad film.
 
 00:08:10.329 --> 00:08:11.293
 Yes.
 
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 Abby, have you seen Revolution?
 
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 I have seen Revolution.
 
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 I saw it when I was in college.
 
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 And I was a history major,
 
 00:08:19.952 --> 00:08:21.134
 was interested in the
 
 00:08:21.153 --> 00:08:24.276
 colonial period then as well.
 
 00:08:25.538 --> 00:08:26.778
 I definitely remember it
 
 00:08:26.819 --> 00:08:28.139
 caught a sense of the
 
 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:29.540
 grittiness of the period,
 
 00:08:29.821 --> 00:08:31.343
 but I have to admit my
 
 00:08:31.543 --> 00:08:33.804
 primary memory of it is a
 
 00:08:33.865 --> 00:08:35.605
 scene in which the heroine
 
 00:08:35.966 --> 00:08:38.548
 of the film is calling after the hero,
 
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 you, only you.
 
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 And my best friend and I
 
 00:08:41.791 --> 00:08:43.352
 were rather fond of
 
 00:08:43.513 --> 00:08:44.693
 reenacting that scene.
 
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 That is your primary memory
 
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 coming out of a film.
 
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 You're not doing a whole lot
 
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 with the revolution.
 
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 Yeah,
 
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 my first sense of it when I saw the
 
 00:08:58.379 --> 00:08:59.441
 film was that I was
 
 00:08:59.561 --> 00:09:02.361
 watching something through a dream.
 
 00:09:03.423 --> 00:09:07.965
 And I got very disconcerted by that.
 
 00:09:08.024 --> 00:09:08.585
 But yeah,
 
 00:09:08.784 --> 00:09:10.105
 I think that was intentional
 
 00:09:10.186 --> 00:09:12.726
 because the grittiness is
 
 00:09:12.767 --> 00:09:13.648
 definitely there.
 
 00:09:13.668 --> 00:09:14.268
 Mm-hmm.
 
 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:16.860
 But Al Pacino constantly saying,
 
 00:09:17.081 --> 00:09:17.961
 this isn't my fight.
 
 00:09:18.121 --> 00:09:18.982
 This isn't my fight.
 
 00:09:19.082 --> 00:09:19.962
 This isn't my fight.
 
 00:09:21.443 --> 00:09:24.186
 And the reviewer who said
 
 00:09:24.265 --> 00:09:25.206
 even the characters don't
 
 00:09:25.226 --> 00:09:26.086
 know what's going on.
 
 00:09:26.106 --> 00:09:29.870
 I mean, it really, really got slammed.
 
 00:09:31.431 --> 00:09:32.951
 And I would be interested to
 
 00:09:33.011 --> 00:09:34.753
 know other people's take on the movie.
 
 00:09:34.952 --> 00:09:35.974
 I didn't care for it.
 
 00:09:36.134 --> 00:09:39.696
 But there may be people out
 
 00:09:39.716 --> 00:09:40.657
 there who really saw
 
 00:09:40.716 --> 00:09:43.719
 something in it that worked for them.
 
 00:09:44.508 --> 00:09:48.490
 yes jonathan jonathan tells
 
 00:09:48.570 --> 00:10:03.895
 us information jonathan was
 
 00:10:03.936 --> 00:10:05.256
 an extra oh I'm sorry I
 
 00:10:05.297 --> 00:10:06.116
 missed part of that
 
 00:10:10.427 --> 00:10:10.888
 I'm sorry.
 
 00:10:11.668 --> 00:10:14.373
 My audio connection was going in and out.
 
 00:10:20.922 --> 00:10:22.764
 I'm just going to take a second to switch.
 
 00:10:22.784 --> 00:10:24.147
 Since we're not live, we can do this.
 
 00:10:24.167 --> 00:10:26.109
 Okay.
 
 00:10:26.149 --> 00:10:26.490
 My apologies.
 
 00:10:42.227 --> 00:10:44.028
 I can edit this out post-production.
 
 00:10:44.489 --> 00:10:45.908
 Thank you.
 
 00:10:45.928 --> 00:10:48.610
 OK.
 
 00:10:48.690 --> 00:10:49.811
 Yeah, I do have to say,
 
 00:10:49.870 --> 00:10:50.610
 Bob and I have had this
 
 00:10:50.650 --> 00:10:51.772
 conversation before.
 
 00:10:51.871 --> 00:10:54.552
 And I just watched April
 
 00:10:54.592 --> 00:10:55.732
 Morning for the first time
 
 00:10:55.753 --> 00:10:56.913
 in a long time.
 
 00:10:56.994 --> 00:11:00.595
 And I had forgotten.
 
 00:11:00.634 --> 00:11:02.395
 Yeah, that wasn't a terribly good one.
 
 00:11:03.515 --> 00:11:04.395
 No, no.
 
 00:11:04.655 --> 00:11:07.817
 I mean, as a coming of age story,
 
 00:11:09.542 --> 00:11:10.501
 it works pretty well,
 
 00:11:10.542 --> 00:11:17.865
 but it's pretty predictable too.
 
 00:11:18.044 --> 00:11:19.306
 So I worked for a while for
 
 00:11:19.346 --> 00:11:20.385
 the American Antiquarian
 
 00:11:20.426 --> 00:11:21.346
 Society in Worcester.
 
 00:11:21.606 --> 00:11:25.687
 And I was always struck by
 
 00:11:26.889 --> 00:11:28.328
 Esther Forbes' work on
 
 00:11:29.549 --> 00:11:32.410
 Johnny Tremaine and how
 
 00:11:32.431 --> 00:11:34.152
 that still really holds in
 
 00:11:34.192 --> 00:11:35.351
 the public imagination.
 
 00:11:35.792 --> 00:11:36.113
 Yes.
 
 00:11:36.133 --> 00:11:36.932
 Hey, Bob.
 
 00:11:38.514 --> 00:11:38.634
 Hello.
 
 00:11:38.653 --> 00:11:42.296
 I'm going to take your computer image out.
 
 00:11:43.096 --> 00:11:45.017
 Thank you.
 
 00:11:45.037 --> 00:11:45.557
 Let's see.
 
 00:11:45.576 --> 00:11:46.677
 There we go.
 
 00:11:46.697 --> 00:11:47.017
 All right.
 
 00:11:47.076 --> 00:11:50.958
 And I will let you continue on.
 
 00:11:51.058 --> 00:11:51.239
 Okay.
 
 00:11:51.298 --> 00:11:51.658
 Very good.
 
 00:11:51.698 --> 00:11:55.419
 Thank you.
 
 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:57.221
 Okay.
 
 00:11:57.240 --> 00:11:57.780
 My apologies.
 
 00:12:00.642 --> 00:12:02.962
 So we've talked about the revolution.
 
 00:12:02.982 --> 00:12:04.144
 We've talked about the Patriot.
 
 00:12:04.183 --> 00:12:05.224
 Where do we pick up then?
 
 00:12:06.578 --> 00:12:07.418
 unless we wanted to have
 
 00:12:07.499 --> 00:12:12.201
 more to say about each of those.
 
 00:12:12.260 --> 00:12:15.001
 Yeah, just a word about The Patriot.
 
 00:12:15.282 --> 00:12:16.702
 The Patriot is one of those
 
 00:12:16.783 --> 00:12:18.082
 where they're very proud
 
 00:12:18.163 --> 00:12:20.303
 about getting the props right,
 
 00:12:20.344 --> 00:12:21.283
 the costumes right.
 
 00:12:24.184 --> 00:12:25.885
 The history is a little problematic.
 
 00:12:26.225 --> 00:12:28.886
 And it's a film that it's
 
 00:12:28.927 --> 00:12:29.966
 enjoyable to watch.
 
 00:12:30.326 --> 00:12:32.307
 It's a nice action adventure film.
 
 00:12:32.628 --> 00:12:33.509
 It gets your attention.
 
 00:12:35.884 --> 00:12:37.264
 but some of the history is
 
 00:12:37.325 --> 00:12:38.885
 pretty disturbing in that one.
 
 00:12:39.785 --> 00:12:41.546
 And I had a student once
 
 00:12:42.105 --> 00:12:43.346
 talking about the Patriot
 
 00:12:43.385 --> 00:12:44.767
 and he called it Braveheart
 
 00:12:44.826 --> 00:12:45.626
 in the colonies.
 
 00:12:47.067 --> 00:12:48.647
 As if Mel Gibson just makes
 
 00:12:48.687 --> 00:12:50.207
 the same movie over and over again,
 
 00:12:50.248 --> 00:12:52.307
 he just moves around geographically.
 
 00:12:53.707 --> 00:12:55.708
 So I'm not sure that's completely fair,
 
 00:12:55.788 --> 00:12:58.208
 but there are some
 
 00:12:58.389 --> 00:13:01.309
 interesting problems with that film.
 
 00:13:01.330 --> 00:13:01.509
 Yes, yeah.
 
 00:13:03.274 --> 00:13:05.975
 You also talk about a film, Sweet Liberty,
 
 00:13:05.995 --> 00:13:07.057
 which is about the making
 
 00:13:07.096 --> 00:13:08.256
 of historical films.
 
 00:13:08.898 --> 00:13:09.778
 You have this historian
 
 00:13:09.817 --> 00:13:10.938
 played by Alan Alda,
 
 00:13:10.958 --> 00:13:12.139
 and he's written a novel,
 
 00:13:12.179 --> 00:13:13.681
 and then it's being turned into a film,
 
 00:13:14.140 --> 00:13:17.322
 which becomes really a whole story about,
 
 00:13:18.063 --> 00:13:19.164
 and screw historical
 
 00:13:19.245 --> 00:13:20.225
 accuracy is one of the
 
 00:13:20.264 --> 00:13:23.206
 taglines in the film.
 
 00:13:24.087 --> 00:13:24.668
 Right, right.
 
 00:13:26.690 --> 00:13:28.191
 I debated whether to include
 
 00:13:28.211 --> 00:13:29.431
 that film because it's not
 
 00:13:29.611 --> 00:13:31.613
 actually about the American Revolution,
 
 00:13:34.312 --> 00:13:37.333
 it tapped into a lot of the
 
 00:13:37.433 --> 00:13:39.114
 issues that historians have
 
 00:13:39.715 --> 00:13:41.956
 with the making of films like this.
 
 00:13:42.855 --> 00:13:46.057
 And it wasn't as popular as
 
 00:13:46.097 --> 00:13:48.019
 some of Alan Alda's other films,
 
 00:13:48.198 --> 00:13:52.480
 but I think that that tagline,
 
 00:13:52.520 --> 00:13:56.081
 as you said, screw historical accuracy,
 
 00:13:56.442 --> 00:13:59.124
 is key to what's going on in that movie.
 
 00:13:59.648 --> 00:14:01.809
 and watching Alan Alda's
 
 00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:02.830
 character just become
 
 00:14:02.870 --> 00:14:04.371
 increasingly frustrated and
 
 00:14:04.392 --> 00:14:05.692
 the many different ways he
 
 00:14:05.753 --> 00:14:08.254
 tries to get the history
 
 00:14:08.333 --> 00:14:09.715
 right until finally he just
 
 00:14:09.774 --> 00:14:13.597
 rebels himself and takes
 
 00:14:13.618 --> 00:14:15.960
 the reenactors along with
 
 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.462
 him is just a beautiful way
 
 00:14:20.482 --> 00:14:23.264
 to demonstrate that when
 
 00:14:23.304 --> 00:14:26.888
 historians watch films about history,
 
 00:14:28.277 --> 00:14:30.139
 we become frustrated when
 
 00:14:30.318 --> 00:14:31.580
 the story gets twisted,
 
 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:33.240
 when the drama that was
 
 00:14:33.321 --> 00:14:37.585
 already there becomes overblown,
 
 00:14:38.605 --> 00:14:41.688
 or it becomes a vehicle for
 
 00:14:41.729 --> 00:14:43.450
 something else, for some agenda.
 
 00:14:43.470 --> 00:14:44.451
 Right, right.
 
 00:14:45.491 --> 00:14:46.533
 Now, Marianne, I have to ask,
 
 00:14:46.552 --> 00:14:48.014
 since you are the authority
 
 00:14:48.153 --> 00:14:49.195
 on John Adams and the
 
 00:14:49.235 --> 00:14:50.456
 memory of John Adams,
 
 00:14:50.515 --> 00:14:51.417
 what thoughts you have
 
 00:14:51.456 --> 00:14:52.998
 about the John Adams series
 
 00:14:53.038 --> 00:14:54.419
 based on David McCullough's book?
 
 00:14:56.801 --> 00:14:57.421
 On the surface,
 
 00:14:58.282 --> 00:15:00.423
 I like the miniseries very much.
 
 00:15:01.263 --> 00:15:03.744
 I thought Paul Giamatti was
 
 00:15:03.903 --> 00:15:05.465
 very good at capturing John
 
 00:15:05.565 --> 00:15:07.285
 Adams over a series of years.
 
 00:15:10.287 --> 00:15:12.508
 I wrote an entire chapter on
 
 00:15:12.908 --> 00:15:13.808
 this miniseries,
 
 00:15:14.609 --> 00:15:16.509
 as well as the McCullough biography.
 
 00:15:17.629 --> 00:15:21.331
 And one of the takeaways in
 
 00:15:21.751 --> 00:15:25.453
 really diving deep into that miniseries
 
 00:15:26.562 --> 00:15:28.043
 was sort of the
 
 00:15:28.224 --> 00:15:30.186
 one-dimensional John Adams
 
 00:15:30.225 --> 00:15:32.628
 that we see coming from home.
 
 00:15:33.548 --> 00:15:35.429
 He was clearly working from a script.
 
 00:15:37.671 --> 00:15:40.553
 But John Adams could be a
 
 00:15:40.594 --> 00:15:41.673
 very warm person.
 
 00:15:42.235 --> 00:15:43.436
 He loved deeply.
 
 00:15:43.535 --> 00:15:44.716
 He loved his friends.
 
 00:15:45.576 --> 00:15:47.399
 He had an incredible sense
 
 00:15:47.418 --> 00:15:48.779
 of humor that comes out in
 
 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:50.860
 his diary and his correspondence.
 
 00:15:51.761 --> 00:15:53.123
 And all of that was missing.
 
 00:15:53.654 --> 00:15:55.096
 from the character.
 
 00:15:55.115 --> 00:15:56.697
 And I was interested to find
 
 00:15:56.797 --> 00:15:57.778
 out when I visited the
 
 00:15:57.837 --> 00:15:58.899
 Adams National Historical
 
 00:15:58.938 --> 00:16:01.681
 Park in Quincy that the
 
 00:16:01.721 --> 00:16:03.481
 interpreters there agreed with me.
 
 00:16:04.243 --> 00:16:05.124
 They said they were very
 
 00:16:05.163 --> 00:16:07.264
 disappointed that that part
 
 00:16:07.304 --> 00:16:08.566
 of John Adams did not
 
 00:16:09.025 --> 00:16:10.628
 emerge in the miniseries.
 
 00:16:11.447 --> 00:16:12.889
 So it's beautifully done.
 
 00:16:14.389 --> 00:16:15.991
 I praise Paul Giamatti and
 
 00:16:16.032 --> 00:16:18.472
 Laura Linney both for the
 
 00:16:18.513 --> 00:16:19.354
 work that they did.
 
 00:16:20.966 --> 00:16:23.308
 but they were only given so much.
 
 00:16:23.370 --> 00:16:25.110
 And even things that
 
 00:16:25.150 --> 00:16:26.893
 McCullough covered don't
 
 00:16:26.932 --> 00:16:29.576
 show up in the script.
 
 00:16:29.635 --> 00:16:31.337
 And I understand they were limited.
 
 00:16:31.357 --> 00:16:32.899
 It couldn't be a twenty part series,
 
 00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:33.700
 although I would have been
 
 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:34.441
 okay with that.
 
 00:16:35.381 --> 00:16:38.184
 We all would have been, yeah.
 
 00:16:38.566 --> 00:16:40.126
 But still that one dimensional.
 
 00:16:40.187 --> 00:16:42.409
 And it's sort of a trope that has
 
 00:16:43.706 --> 00:16:45.208
 has gone through, there's a pattern,
 
 00:16:45.349 --> 00:16:47.311
 the what I call obnoxious
 
 00:16:47.370 --> 00:16:48.472
 and disliked trope that
 
 00:16:48.513 --> 00:16:49.394
 comes from seventeen
 
 00:16:49.453 --> 00:16:51.456
 seventy six sort of works
 
 00:16:51.495 --> 00:16:52.256
 through all of the
 
 00:16:52.537 --> 00:16:54.340
 depictions we've had of John Adams.
 
 00:16:55.520 --> 00:16:56.962
 And I would love to see a
 
 00:16:57.023 --> 00:16:58.323
 more three dimensional,
 
 00:16:58.865 --> 00:17:00.726
 four dimensional look at
 
 00:17:00.787 --> 00:17:03.250
 just to find all of his personality.
 
 00:17:04.082 --> 00:17:04.342
 Right.
 
 00:17:04.362 --> 00:17:05.323
 I think that's one of the
 
 00:17:05.363 --> 00:17:07.644
 things that McCullough does
 
 00:17:07.763 --> 00:17:09.244
 capture a lot of that.
 
 00:17:09.285 --> 00:17:09.505
 You know,
 
 00:17:09.525 --> 00:17:10.605
 he started off to write a book
 
 00:17:10.625 --> 00:17:12.125
 about Jefferson, then he said,
 
 00:17:12.145 --> 00:17:13.487
 I'll add Adams,
 
 00:17:13.527 --> 00:17:14.827
 and then found out Adams
 
 00:17:14.847 --> 00:17:15.968
 was a lot more interesting.
 
 00:17:17.308 --> 00:17:17.608
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:17:17.628 --> 00:17:17.949
 As he is.
 
 00:17:18.048 --> 00:17:19.450
 And if you notice reading the book,
 
 00:17:19.789 --> 00:17:20.911
 virtually every paragraph
 
 00:17:20.971 --> 00:17:22.692
 ends in John Adams's voice.
 
 00:17:22.991 --> 00:17:23.352
 Yes.
 
 00:17:23.531 --> 00:17:27.713
 And his way of writing and speaking and,
 
 00:17:28.153 --> 00:17:29.075
 yeah.
 
 00:17:29.481 --> 00:17:30.083
 That's fascinating.
 
 00:17:30.103 --> 00:17:31.423
 And another character who is
 
 00:17:31.604 --> 00:17:32.483
 one dimensional in our
 
 00:17:32.503 --> 00:17:34.165
 historical memory is Washington.
 
 00:17:34.205 --> 00:17:35.247
 Maybe that's one reason it's
 
 00:17:35.307 --> 00:17:36.988
 hard to translate them to film.
 
 00:17:37.508 --> 00:17:37.888
 Yes.
 
 00:17:38.469 --> 00:17:39.390
 Yeah, absolutely.
 
 00:17:39.410 --> 00:17:41.491
 And Washington didn't leave
 
 00:17:41.592 --> 00:17:44.233
 us nearly as much as John Adams did.
 
 00:17:44.314 --> 00:17:47.296
 John Adams is the dictionary
 
 00:17:47.336 --> 00:17:48.857
 definition of transparency.
 
 00:17:50.179 --> 00:17:52.901
 He just lays it all out there and there's,
 
 00:17:52.921 --> 00:17:53.080
 I mean,
 
 00:17:53.121 --> 00:17:54.461
 you've got a lot to work with there.
 
 00:17:55.403 --> 00:17:56.903
 Washington and Jefferson
 
 00:17:56.963 --> 00:17:59.145
 both played things pretty
 
 00:17:59.602 --> 00:18:01.781
 close to the chest there.
 
 00:18:01.821 --> 00:18:05.643
 So there's a lot that we have to guess at,
 
 00:18:06.002 --> 00:18:06.982
 a lot of assumptions that
 
 00:18:07.002 --> 00:18:07.624
 we have to make.
 
 00:18:07.644 --> 00:18:10.304
 And you also talk about the
 
 00:18:10.403 --> 00:18:11.443
 Seventeen Seventy-Six,
 
 00:18:11.503 --> 00:18:13.224
 both the musical and the play.
 
 00:18:13.244 --> 00:18:14.204
 And that's a curious one
 
 00:18:14.224 --> 00:18:16.704
 because it's about, not about a battle,
 
 00:18:16.805 --> 00:18:18.306
 it's about this basically
 
 00:18:18.346 --> 00:18:19.846
 debate in Congress.
 
 00:18:19.986 --> 00:18:20.905
 And I've had students who
 
 00:18:20.945 --> 00:18:21.965
 tell me when I say,
 
 00:18:22.026 --> 00:18:22.586
 I don't think there are
 
 00:18:22.626 --> 00:18:23.807
 good movies about the revolution.
 
 00:18:23.826 --> 00:18:24.126
 They say, well,
 
 00:18:24.166 --> 00:18:25.727
 what about Seventeen Seventy-Six?
 
 00:18:25.747 --> 00:18:27.087
 It's kind of heartening to hear that.
 
 00:18:27.647 --> 00:18:28.008
 Yes.
 
 00:18:28.387 --> 00:18:28.627
 Yeah.
 
 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.421
 I know that some people who
 
 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:33.741
 specialize in some of the
 
 00:18:33.781 --> 00:18:35.462
 other characters in that
 
 00:18:35.502 --> 00:18:37.923
 movie aren't as fond of it as I am.
 
 00:18:38.124 --> 00:18:40.164
 I've heard people who study
 
 00:18:40.204 --> 00:18:42.886
 Richard Henry Lee get very
 
 00:18:42.987 --> 00:18:44.448
 upset with that movie.
 
 00:18:44.528 --> 00:18:46.489
 And I understand that completely.
 
 00:18:47.628 --> 00:18:49.210
 But when it comes to the
 
 00:18:49.230 --> 00:18:50.290
 characterization of John
 
 00:18:50.391 --> 00:18:51.632
 Adams in particular,
 
 00:18:52.531 --> 00:18:54.373
 especially in that period of time,
 
 00:18:54.712 --> 00:18:56.653
 probably the most intense of his life,
 
 00:18:58.394 --> 00:18:59.914
 William Daniels is brilliant.
 
 00:19:00.315 --> 00:19:02.175
 And the script is brilliant there,
 
 00:19:02.516 --> 00:19:02.875
 I think.
 
 00:19:03.715 --> 00:19:05.356
 And so you throw in some
 
 00:19:05.396 --> 00:19:06.277
 singing and dancing.
 
 00:19:08.377 --> 00:19:08.877
 It's OK.
 
 00:19:08.917 --> 00:19:10.078
 You have to allow for that.
 
 00:19:10.159 --> 00:19:12.079
 But the nuance is there.
 
 00:19:12.579 --> 00:19:13.880
 And I think also,
 
 00:19:14.921 --> 00:19:16.781
 even though there are some
 
 00:19:17.882 --> 00:19:19.042
 funny moments and we
 
 00:19:19.123 --> 00:19:21.022
 humanize the founders in that movie,
 
 00:19:21.624 --> 00:19:23.463
 there's also a respect there.
 
 00:19:25.874 --> 00:19:27.315
 I don't want to say reverence so much,
 
 00:19:27.335 --> 00:19:28.275
 that sounds sacred,
 
 00:19:28.375 --> 00:19:31.215
 but I think especially in
 
 00:19:31.236 --> 00:19:33.336
 the closing moments of the film,
 
 00:19:34.916 --> 00:19:38.557
 you see this respect for
 
 00:19:38.597 --> 00:19:40.138
 these people and what they
 
 00:19:40.179 --> 00:19:41.980
 do and the sacrifices
 
 00:19:42.019 --> 00:19:43.880
 they've made at this point,
 
 00:19:43.900 --> 00:19:45.580
 which comes through in the film.
 
 00:19:46.780 --> 00:19:46.881
 Yes.
 
 00:19:46.901 --> 00:19:48.422
 We're talking with Marian Holtzcum,
 
 00:19:48.622 --> 00:19:50.583
 author of Based on a True Story.
 
 00:19:52.733 --> 00:19:53.453
 Abby Chandler,
 
 00:19:53.473 --> 00:19:54.913
 who is editing the H-Net
 
 00:19:54.953 --> 00:19:55.994
 series on remembering the
 
 00:19:56.035 --> 00:19:57.434
 revolution at two fifty.
 
 00:19:57.954 --> 00:19:59.174
 Two films you didn't mention.
 
 00:19:59.194 --> 00:20:00.214
 I'm not criticizing you.
 
 00:20:00.275 --> 00:20:01.476
 I know you had a choice that
 
 00:20:01.536 --> 00:20:03.496
 were Johnny Tremaine and
 
 00:20:04.415 --> 00:20:05.596
 Guns Along the Mohawk,
 
 00:20:05.655 --> 00:20:07.936
 which both are revolutionary.
 
 00:20:08.376 --> 00:20:09.076
 Johnny Tremaine,
 
 00:20:09.136 --> 00:20:10.616
 it's maybe before your time
 
 00:20:10.836 --> 00:20:12.317
 and definitely before Abby's time.
 
 00:20:12.376 --> 00:20:13.637
 But a lot of kids grew up
 
 00:20:13.718 --> 00:20:14.877
 seeing that as their first
 
 00:20:14.917 --> 00:20:16.417
 real exposure to the revolution.
 
 00:20:16.597 --> 00:20:17.377
 I know you've written about
 
 00:20:17.978 --> 00:20:19.398
 the Disney version of history,
 
 00:20:19.459 --> 00:20:21.398
 so maybe you've covered it already there.
 
 00:20:21.499 --> 00:20:21.558
 Yes.
 
 00:20:22.474 --> 00:20:23.175
 Yeah, I did.
 
 00:20:23.736 --> 00:20:25.738
 I covered Johnny Tremaine in
 
 00:20:25.778 --> 00:20:28.259
 that particular chapter in
 
 00:20:28.299 --> 00:20:29.240
 that edited volume.
 
 00:20:30.781 --> 00:20:34.163
 And my first or second draft
 
 00:20:34.545 --> 00:20:36.266
 of this article, Abby may remember,
 
 00:20:36.766 --> 00:20:38.327
 I did have a paragraph or
 
 00:20:38.347 --> 00:20:39.669
 two on Johnny Tremaine.
 
 00:20:41.549 --> 00:20:44.211
 When we decided to sort of refocus,
 
 00:20:45.353 --> 00:20:46.874
 I felt that I needed to
 
 00:20:47.095 --> 00:20:48.375
 take Johnny Tremaine out
 
 00:20:48.415 --> 00:20:49.896
 and I didn't really want to,
 
 00:20:50.711 --> 00:20:52.452
 but there was a word limit
 
 00:20:53.334 --> 00:20:55.015
 as well that I was working under.
 
 00:20:55.875 --> 00:20:58.416
 And I decided to really
 
 00:20:58.497 --> 00:20:59.596
 focus on some of these
 
 00:20:59.656 --> 00:21:00.798
 other films rather than
 
 00:21:00.857 --> 00:21:02.898
 just have a paragraph here on this one,
 
 00:21:02.959 --> 00:21:05.060
 a paragraph there on that.
 
 00:21:05.141 --> 00:21:08.383
 So, but- That makes sense.
 
 00:21:08.423 --> 00:21:09.423
 And I also applaud you for
 
 00:21:09.542 --> 00:21:10.983
 not simply rehashing what
 
 00:21:11.003 --> 00:21:12.545
 you've already said somewhere else.
 
 00:21:13.184 --> 00:21:13.566
 Thank you.
 
 00:21:13.786 --> 00:21:14.746
 Yeah.
 
 00:21:15.047 --> 00:21:16.807
 I certainly did not want to do that.
 
 00:21:18.746 --> 00:21:20.347
 But I think Johnny Tremaine
 
 00:21:20.367 --> 00:21:21.208
 is interesting.
 
 00:21:22.328 --> 00:21:23.950
 I've never read the original novel,
 
 00:21:24.611 --> 00:21:27.432
 but I have seen the movie several times,
 
 00:21:27.573 --> 00:21:28.773
 and it is one of those.
 
 00:21:29.814 --> 00:21:32.737
 It's also a coming-of-age story,
 
 00:21:34.357 --> 00:21:36.318
 which is huge in
 
 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:40.182
 revolutionary plays and novels, and it's
 
 00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:41.661
 that seems to be a theme
 
 00:21:41.701 --> 00:21:43.761
 because we were coming of age too,
 
 00:21:43.862 --> 00:21:45.701
 I guess, as Asian or something.
 
 00:21:45.742 --> 00:21:48.763
 And so you, you see this parallel a lot,
 
 00:21:49.084 --> 00:21:51.325
 but I've,
 
 00:21:51.684 --> 00:21:53.405
 I've wondered since I've started
 
 00:21:53.445 --> 00:21:53.986
 working on,
 
 00:21:54.267 --> 00:21:55.846
 on this project and I was looking at,
 
 00:21:56.067 --> 00:21:57.208
 at the historiography,
 
 00:21:57.428 --> 00:21:59.628
 it may be a full length
 
 00:21:59.669 --> 00:22:03.371
 book might be in order to
 
 00:22:03.770 --> 00:22:05.291
 cover all of these things.
 
 00:22:06.203 --> 00:22:07.786
 without me rehashing things
 
 00:22:07.806 --> 00:22:08.866
 that I've already done and
 
 00:22:08.906 --> 00:22:10.067
 other people have done.
 
 00:22:10.087 --> 00:22:11.288
 I'm still thinking about that,
 
 00:22:11.348 --> 00:22:13.030
 and I'm going to ask Abby's
 
 00:22:13.290 --> 00:22:15.794
 advice on that as well.
 
 00:22:16.314 --> 00:22:17.055
 And Abby,
 
 00:22:17.795 --> 00:22:20.178
 what other projects do you see coming up,
 
 00:22:20.278 --> 00:22:21.538
 and what next topics will
 
 00:22:21.558 --> 00:22:23.381
 you be tackling in the HNET series?
 
 00:22:24.394 --> 00:22:27.756
 So we actually have one
 
 00:22:27.796 --> 00:22:29.336
 essay that's in layout right now.
 
 00:22:29.776 --> 00:22:31.176
 So it's going to be coming
 
 00:22:31.396 --> 00:22:33.636
 out probably two weeks,
 
 00:22:33.717 --> 00:22:35.637
 maybe three weeks at the longest.
 
 00:22:36.498 --> 00:22:38.117
 And this is actually the
 
 00:22:38.178 --> 00:22:42.098
 first of two essays in the
 
 00:22:42.138 --> 00:22:44.579
 Revolution for a New Century category.
 
 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:49.121
 And it's written by three scholars
 
 00:22:49.840 --> 00:22:51.162
 who are affiliated with the
 
 00:22:51.241 --> 00:22:53.664
 Old North Church in Boston.
 
 00:22:54.505 --> 00:22:56.307
 And the original essay that
 
 00:22:56.346 --> 00:22:58.588
 they sent us was looking at
 
 00:22:58.628 --> 00:23:00.851
 how their interpretation of
 
 00:23:00.911 --> 00:23:02.472
 the revolution and of the
 
 00:23:02.512 --> 00:23:04.494
 community around the Old
 
 00:23:04.535 --> 00:23:07.057
 North Church in the eighteenth century
 
 00:23:08.659 --> 00:23:09.960
 or how their interpretation
 
 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:12.842
 of that community has evolved over time.
 
 00:23:13.843 --> 00:23:17.286
 And we eventually decided
 
 00:23:17.546 --> 00:23:21.929
 that it would work better as two essays.
 
 00:23:22.269 --> 00:23:23.250
 So the first essay that
 
 00:23:23.289 --> 00:23:25.092
 we'll be publishing in the
 
 00:23:25.112 --> 00:23:27.953
 next couple of weeks is a
 
 00:23:28.034 --> 00:23:30.615
 history of the Old North Church
 
 00:23:31.517 --> 00:23:32.778
 in the eighteenth century,
 
 00:23:32.798 --> 00:23:33.678
 which is particularly
 
 00:23:33.738 --> 00:23:37.378
 focused on the very multicultural,
 
 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:39.740
 multiracial community that
 
 00:23:39.779 --> 00:23:42.701
 were part of that congregation.
 
 00:23:43.582 --> 00:23:46.863
 And we decided that because
 
 00:23:46.883 --> 00:23:47.784
 that's a story that's not
 
 00:23:47.864 --> 00:23:49.364
 usually associated with the
 
 00:23:49.443 --> 00:23:50.365
 Old North Church,
 
 00:23:51.005 --> 00:23:52.325
 that we wanted to give
 
 00:23:52.405 --> 00:23:54.506
 people that back history.
 
 00:23:55.027 --> 00:23:56.886
 And then the second essay,
 
 00:23:57.007 --> 00:23:58.208
 which we'll be publishing
 
 00:23:58.748 --> 00:24:00.788
 early in twenty twenty five,
 
 00:24:01.229 --> 00:24:02.470
 looks at how their
 
 00:24:02.509 --> 00:24:03.991
 interpretation has evolved.
 
 00:24:04.011 --> 00:24:05.333
 Interesting.
 
 00:24:05.693 --> 00:24:06.795
 Yes.
 
 00:24:06.835 --> 00:24:09.897
 That's what we have immediately coming.
 
 00:24:10.878 --> 00:24:14.843
 The other thing we have
 
 00:24:14.903 --> 00:24:18.926
 coming along is a series of
 
 00:24:19.126 --> 00:24:21.229
 essays looking at the
 
 00:24:21.288 --> 00:24:24.092
 experiences of loyalists.
 
 00:24:25.233 --> 00:24:29.159
 And that collection is near
 
 00:24:29.179 --> 00:24:29.960
 and dear to my heart
 
 00:24:29.980 --> 00:24:31.762
 because I am a Loyola scholar,
 
 00:24:32.304 --> 00:24:35.087
 but did not come about
 
 00:24:35.548 --> 00:24:37.211
 because of that particular
 
 00:24:37.270 --> 00:24:38.132
 interest of mine.
 
 00:24:38.471 --> 00:24:39.354
 We just kept getting
 
 00:24:39.394 --> 00:24:41.316
 proposals for Loyola collections.
 
 00:24:42.396 --> 00:24:45.018
 And maybe that may be people looking at,
 
 00:24:45.097 --> 00:24:45.358
 okay,
 
 00:24:45.398 --> 00:24:47.419
 the lead editor is a Loyalist scholar,
 
 00:24:47.459 --> 00:24:49.279
 so maybe this is a journal
 
 00:24:49.299 --> 00:24:50.681
 that's interested in Loyalists.
 
 00:24:50.921 --> 00:24:53.521
 But the first of those
 
 00:24:53.582 --> 00:24:55.022
 essays we'll be publishing
 
 00:24:55.182 --> 00:24:57.604
 is one looking at Loyalists
 
 00:24:57.644 --> 00:24:59.404
 in memory in the United States.
 
 00:24:59.944 --> 00:25:01.204
 We're also working with a
 
 00:25:01.265 --> 00:25:03.365
 scholar based in Canada,
 
 00:25:03.826 --> 00:25:05.487
 a Loyalist in memory in Canada.
 
 00:25:05.887 --> 00:25:08.328
 We're working with one based in the UK.
 
 00:25:09.368 --> 00:25:11.549
 because because the
 
 00:25:11.589 --> 00:25:13.550
 loyalists become the
 
 00:25:13.570 --> 00:25:15.571
 loyalist diaspora we really
 
 00:25:15.612 --> 00:25:17.333
 wanted to look at well how
 
 00:25:17.373 --> 00:25:18.773
 do other people in other
 
 00:25:18.814 --> 00:25:20.775
 countries remember that
 
 00:25:20.815 --> 00:25:23.036
 particular people so that
 
 00:25:23.115 --> 00:25:24.196
 gives you a sense of where
 
 00:25:24.237 --> 00:25:26.498
 we are headed that's
 
 00:25:26.518 --> 00:25:27.577
 interesting and it is I I
 
 00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:29.338
 think the study of
 
 00:25:29.419 --> 00:25:30.339
 loyalists is picking up
 
 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:31.779
 maybe because we recognize
 
 00:25:31.819 --> 00:25:34.142
 now the complexity and the
 
 00:25:34.162 --> 00:25:36.883
 shift in the ambiguous alliances and the
 
 00:25:37.509 --> 00:25:39.351
 prevailing idea here was
 
 00:25:39.391 --> 00:25:41.211
 that everyone was on the same side.
 
 00:25:41.231 --> 00:25:42.073
 And when we know that
 
 00:25:42.173 --> 00:25:43.273
 actually this was really a
 
 00:25:43.314 --> 00:25:45.536
 contested story at the time,
 
 00:25:45.576 --> 00:25:47.897
 which the Patriot kind of says,
 
 00:25:47.958 --> 00:25:49.378
 although the bad guys
 
 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:50.580
 really are the bad guys,
 
 00:25:51.580 --> 00:25:52.823
 but it is these choices
 
 00:25:52.843 --> 00:25:54.203
 people are making because
 
 00:25:54.243 --> 00:25:56.005
 an interesting theme in the revolution.
 
 00:25:57.566 --> 00:25:58.867
 And one of the things these
 
 00:25:58.948 --> 00:26:01.309
 essays are getting at is
 
 00:26:02.231 --> 00:26:03.593
 the choices people are
 
 00:26:03.633 --> 00:26:05.634
 making are not necessarily
 
 00:26:05.675 --> 00:26:07.738
 for political reasons.
 
 00:26:08.598 --> 00:26:09.880
 In the
 
 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:15.462
 british army has done more
 
 00:26:15.542 --> 00:26:17.884
 proclamation if you are an
 
 00:26:17.944 --> 00:26:19.547
 enslaved african-american
 
 00:26:19.987 --> 00:26:22.909
 and you belong to a patriot
 
 00:26:22.930 --> 00:26:24.411
 family and you run away and
 
 00:26:24.451 --> 00:26:26.112
 join the british army you
 
 00:26:26.152 --> 00:26:27.733
 will be set free
 
 00:26:30.718 --> 00:26:32.298
 And the Museum of the
 
 00:26:32.318 --> 00:26:33.319
 American Revolution in
 
 00:26:33.339 --> 00:26:35.201
 Philadelphia has an exhibit
 
 00:26:35.461 --> 00:26:36.500
 about those people,
 
 00:26:36.840 --> 00:26:39.742
 which has this really straight,
 
 00:26:39.782 --> 00:26:42.243
 it's a diorama, and above it, it reads,
 
 00:26:42.304 --> 00:26:44.546
 sometimes freedom wore a red coat.
 
 00:26:44.865 --> 00:26:45.705
 Right, yeah.
 
 00:26:45.885 --> 00:26:47.707
 Yeah.
 
 00:26:47.787 --> 00:26:48.347
 It's interesting.
 
 00:26:48.367 --> 00:26:50.429
 This, you know, and Marianne,
 
 00:26:50.469 --> 00:26:52.410
 in a couple of the films you mentioned,
 
 00:26:52.970 --> 00:26:54.651
 there is this reluctant warrior.
 
 00:26:54.691 --> 00:26:56.071
 I didn't want to go to war, but.
 
 00:26:56.553 --> 00:26:57.432
 Right.
 
 00:26:57.554 --> 00:26:58.673
 And that's certainly here.
 
 00:26:58.713 --> 00:26:59.894
 And people are making this
 
 00:26:59.954 --> 00:27:01.756
 choice for a lot of reasons
 
 00:27:01.796 --> 00:27:04.116
 aside from having read Thomas Paine.
 
 00:27:04.136 --> 00:27:04.517
 That is,
 
 00:27:04.576 --> 00:27:06.837
 it's something else in South Carolina.
 
 00:27:06.857 --> 00:27:07.699
 You know,
 
 00:27:07.719 --> 00:27:08.598
 you never really liked your
 
 00:27:08.638 --> 00:27:11.181
 neighbors or they raided
 
 00:27:11.201 --> 00:27:12.560
 your house and raped your
 
 00:27:12.601 --> 00:27:14.563
 wife and burned your burned your barn.
 
 00:27:14.603 --> 00:27:15.762
 These kinds of things,
 
 00:27:15.843 --> 00:27:17.163
 which whatever side you're on,
 
 00:27:17.203 --> 00:27:18.845
 that is going to turn you
 
 00:27:19.025 --> 00:27:21.145
 away from whoever is doing that.
 
 00:27:22.489 --> 00:27:22.689
 Right.
 
 00:27:22.769 --> 00:27:25.049
 And I think it, it gets back to the,
 
 00:27:25.109 --> 00:27:25.690
 the saying, you know,
 
 00:27:25.750 --> 00:27:29.092
 all politics are local, um, you know, how,
 
 00:27:29.132 --> 00:27:30.692
 depending on what is
 
 00:27:30.732 --> 00:27:31.972
 happening to you right,
 
 00:27:32.534 --> 00:27:34.433
 right now in your place
 
 00:27:34.554 --> 00:27:37.476
 with your neighbors, um, terminal lot.
 
 00:27:38.215 --> 00:27:41.938
 Um, and I've thought for a long time, um,
 
 00:27:42.117 --> 00:27:44.138
 that it would be nice in
 
 00:27:44.239 --> 00:27:45.358
 revolutionary scholarship.
 
 00:27:45.419 --> 00:27:46.359
 If we could come up with
 
 00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:48.540
 some different terms to refer to people,
 
 00:27:49.421 --> 00:27:51.241
 uh, Patriot is pretty,
 
 00:27:52.076 --> 00:27:55.398
 um and and do we say that
 
 00:27:55.459 --> 00:27:57.901
 people who were loyal
 
 00:27:58.280 --> 00:28:00.122
 weren't patriotic I don't
 
 00:28:00.142 --> 00:28:03.263
 think that's fair yeah I I
 
 00:28:03.364 --> 00:28:04.384
 wish we could come up with
 
 00:28:04.423 --> 00:28:05.944
 some from different ways to
 
 00:28:06.005 --> 00:28:07.405
 refer to these people but
 
 00:28:07.586 --> 00:28:08.866
 I'm I'm not sure that's
 
 00:28:09.267 --> 00:28:10.147
 that's going to happen
 
 00:28:10.188 --> 00:28:12.729
 anytime soon no it may be
 
 00:28:12.828 --> 00:28:14.650
 too why you make the case
 
 00:28:14.670 --> 00:28:16.111
 that some of the television
 
 00:28:16.171 --> 00:28:18.873
 adaptations have done better and the um
 
 00:28:21.011 --> 00:28:21.852
 And maybe that's because you
 
 00:28:21.872 --> 00:28:23.053
 have a smaller scale there
 
 00:28:23.093 --> 00:28:23.853
 where you can actually can
 
 00:28:23.913 --> 00:28:26.054
 have these smaller moments
 
 00:28:26.213 --> 00:28:27.154
 where someone is making
 
 00:28:27.174 --> 00:28:28.435
 this choice on TV as
 
 00:28:28.476 --> 00:28:30.636
 opposed to on the big screen.
 
 00:28:31.217 --> 00:28:32.317
 Yeah, absolutely.
 
 00:28:33.238 --> 00:28:34.638
 I think overall,
 
 00:28:35.219 --> 00:28:36.380
 television has done a
 
 00:28:36.420 --> 00:28:37.700
 better job with this.
 
 00:28:39.101 --> 00:28:42.722
 And that includes PBS.
 
 00:28:43.002 --> 00:28:43.242
 I mean,
 
 00:28:43.544 --> 00:28:44.844
 they have obviously come up with
 
 00:28:44.884 --> 00:28:47.306
 some really good things lately.
 
 00:28:49.442 --> 00:28:50.384
 I would be interested,
 
 00:28:50.564 --> 00:28:52.084
 as I was writing this piece,
 
 00:28:53.305 --> 00:28:54.665
 the Ben Franklin series
 
 00:28:54.685 --> 00:28:55.945
 came out on Apple TV.
 
 00:28:56.686 --> 00:28:57.846
 And I haven't seen it yet,
 
 00:28:57.906 --> 00:29:01.328
 so I can't really judge what that's like.
 
 00:29:01.469 --> 00:29:03.250
 I know being a John Adams scholar,
 
 00:29:03.289 --> 00:29:04.430
 I'm probably not going to
 
 00:29:04.450 --> 00:29:06.951
 be hugely happy with his depiction.
 
 00:29:07.211 --> 00:29:10.614
 But being reminded that it's
 
 00:29:10.634 --> 00:29:11.993
 from Franklin's perspective.
 
 00:29:12.534 --> 00:29:14.134
 Right, right, right.
 
 00:29:14.194 --> 00:29:16.175
 Franklin doesn't come across
 
 00:29:16.215 --> 00:29:17.576
 very well in McCullough's book either.
 
 00:29:17.998 --> 00:29:19.739
 right no oh no he does not
 
 00:29:19.858 --> 00:29:21.539
 so you know it's all about
 
 00:29:21.819 --> 00:29:23.339
 perspective and perception
 
 00:29:24.361 --> 00:29:29.042
 um but I I think overall if
 
 00:29:29.083 --> 00:29:30.222
 you look at the television
 
 00:29:30.343 --> 00:29:31.624
 offerings there's there's a
 
 00:29:32.483 --> 00:29:40.428
 at least a much more thoughtful way of
 
 00:29:41.247 --> 00:29:42.208
 at some of these things
 
 00:29:42.907 --> 00:29:44.128
 because yes you are
 
 00:29:44.189 --> 00:29:45.608
 touching on on the smaller
 
 00:29:45.648 --> 00:29:46.589
 moments and you're getting
 
 00:29:46.609 --> 00:29:47.990
 the intimate conversations
 
 00:29:48.030 --> 00:29:48.971
 about why people are doing
 
 00:29:49.010 --> 00:29:51.333
 what they're doing I can
 
 00:29:51.353 --> 00:29:52.252
 just share a story about
 
 00:29:52.292 --> 00:29:53.574
 the making of john adams
 
 00:29:53.713 --> 00:29:54.753
 and you know jeff
 
 00:29:54.794 --> 00:29:55.734
 mccullough is a very good
 
 00:29:55.755 --> 00:29:56.474
 friend this is david
 
 00:29:56.494 --> 00:29:58.415
 mccullough's son and he
 
 00:29:58.476 --> 00:30:00.978
 went to be an extra in the
 
 00:30:01.018 --> 00:30:02.157
 filming of john adams you
 
 00:30:02.178 --> 00:30:02.939
 may know this he didn't
 
 00:30:02.979 --> 00:30:04.019
 tell anyone didn't tell
 
 00:30:04.058 --> 00:30:04.940
 anyone in the family
 
 00:30:05.430 --> 00:30:07.171
 But he went down to Williamsburg,
 
 00:30:07.211 --> 00:30:07.631
 signed up,
 
 00:30:07.671 --> 00:30:09.392
 and he is in the jury during
 
 00:30:09.432 --> 00:30:11.333
 the trial of the soldiers.
 
 00:30:11.752 --> 00:30:12.513
 And he's sitting there in
 
 00:30:12.534 --> 00:30:15.414
 the front of the jury box in costume.
 
 00:30:15.694 --> 00:30:18.096
 And Paul Giamatti is getting ready.
 
 00:30:18.135 --> 00:30:19.696
 He's pacing back and forth
 
 00:30:19.757 --> 00:30:20.538
 in front of the jury,
 
 00:30:20.577 --> 00:30:22.077
 getting ready for his scene.
 
 00:30:22.499 --> 00:30:23.078
 And all of a sudden,
 
 00:30:23.098 --> 00:30:24.880
 he stops in front of Jeff, turns to him,
 
 00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:25.279
 and says,
 
 00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:27.461
 tell your dad I'm not going to F this up.
 
 00:30:27.921 --> 00:30:28.442
 And then he goes off.
 
 00:30:28.461 --> 00:30:28.781
 I love it.
 
 00:30:36.089 --> 00:30:36.911
 And I guess he didn't.
 
 00:30:37.010 --> 00:30:41.673
 So, but yeah, yeah.
 
 00:30:41.693 --> 00:30:43.414
 So you also,
 
 00:30:43.776 --> 00:30:45.016
 and in your discussion of Mary
 
 00:30:45.036 --> 00:30:45.517
 Silliman's War,
 
 00:30:45.537 --> 00:30:47.077
 you also talk about that ambiguity.
 
 00:30:47.117 --> 00:30:48.157
 And that is also a film
 
 00:30:48.178 --> 00:30:49.479
 that's made for a smaller moment.
 
 00:30:49.499 --> 00:30:49.558
 Yes.
 
 00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:50.220
 Yes.
 
 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:50.900
 Yeah.
 
 00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:51.441
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:30:53.162 --> 00:30:54.442
 Abby, do you want to,
 
 00:30:54.462 --> 00:30:56.144
 you were much more familiar
 
 00:30:56.163 --> 00:30:57.704
 with Mary Silliman's War than I was.
 
 00:30:57.724 --> 00:30:59.605
 And I appreciated being
 
 00:30:59.645 --> 00:31:01.326
 guided there because I had
 
 00:31:01.366 --> 00:31:02.407
 not seen it before.
 
 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:06.101
 So I first saw that film in college, again,
 
 00:31:06.382 --> 00:31:07.561
 as a history major.
 
 00:31:08.041 --> 00:31:09.522
 It was a class on the
 
 00:31:09.542 --> 00:31:11.544
 American Revolution taught
 
 00:31:11.564 --> 00:31:14.865
 by the professor who also
 
 00:31:14.925 --> 00:31:16.346
 taught classes on women in
 
 00:31:16.405 --> 00:31:17.527
 American history.
 
 00:31:18.346 --> 00:31:20.367
 And she used it in class.
 
 00:31:20.929 --> 00:31:23.150
 And I remember being very struck by it.
 
 00:31:23.710 --> 00:31:25.711
 And then years later,
 
 00:31:25.951 --> 00:31:27.172
 I had become a professor.
 
 00:31:28.462 --> 00:31:30.443
 which was not something I
 
 00:31:30.624 --> 00:31:31.544
 ever thought I would do.
 
 00:31:32.304 --> 00:31:34.384
 And I was teaching a class
 
 00:31:34.424 --> 00:31:35.444
 in the American Revolution
 
 00:31:35.484 --> 00:31:37.286
 for the first time and thought, oh,
 
 00:31:38.465 --> 00:31:39.807
 I remember liking that.
 
 00:31:40.686 --> 00:31:42.326
 And I tracked it down.
 
 00:31:42.586 --> 00:31:45.028
 What I did not realize at
 
 00:31:45.048 --> 00:31:47.509
 the time when I was in college was that
 
 00:31:48.435 --> 00:31:50.477
 that my professor who
 
 00:31:50.537 --> 00:31:52.377
 assigned it at the time,
 
 00:31:52.679 --> 00:31:53.959
 Mary Solomon's War had only
 
 00:31:53.999 --> 00:31:55.720
 just been made a year or two before.
 
 00:31:56.840 --> 00:32:00.563
 It was a very new movie at that time.
 
 00:32:01.243 --> 00:32:04.905
 And so rewatching it two decades later,
 
 00:32:05.526 --> 00:32:06.426
 one of the things that
 
 00:32:06.507 --> 00:32:09.909
 struck me was that it felt
 
 00:32:10.449 --> 00:32:11.630
 as fresh as it did when I
 
 00:32:11.670 --> 00:32:14.131
 saw it as a college student in the early
 
 00:32:16.152 --> 00:32:18.232
 And there's a wonderful
 
 00:32:18.894 --> 00:32:20.494
 website called Frogflix,
 
 00:32:20.795 --> 00:32:23.496
 which specializes in
 
 00:32:23.856 --> 00:32:25.317
 critiquing historical
 
 00:32:25.356 --> 00:32:27.719
 clothing in period film.
 
 00:32:28.439 --> 00:32:29.500
 And one of the points they
 
 00:32:29.539 --> 00:32:31.401
 make is that you can often
 
 00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:33.321
 date a film by the hairstyles.
 
 00:32:34.342 --> 00:32:36.983
 that the hairstyles will
 
 00:32:37.064 --> 00:32:38.124
 often reflect what's going
 
 00:32:38.223 --> 00:32:40.744
 on in whatever era it is.
 
 00:32:41.546 --> 00:32:43.426
 And Mary Silliman's War is
 
 00:32:43.547 --> 00:32:45.086
 one of those rare films
 
 00:32:45.587 --> 00:32:46.968
 where you watch it and you
 
 00:32:47.008 --> 00:32:49.088
 can't quite tell when it was made.
 
 00:32:49.108 --> 00:32:50.269
 I mean, okay, yes,
 
 00:32:50.750 --> 00:32:52.871
 the production values at this point,
 
 00:32:54.632 --> 00:32:55.873
 but otherwise,
 
 00:32:57.361 --> 00:33:00.221
 it really has a very timeless feel.
 
 00:33:00.281 --> 00:33:02.721
 It is not tied to the decade
 
 00:33:02.821 --> 00:33:04.143
 in which it was produced.
 
 00:33:04.303 --> 00:33:06.083
 I think is one of the things
 
 00:33:06.103 --> 00:33:07.723
 that Marianne really got at
 
 00:33:07.763 --> 00:33:10.904
 with her essay is how much
 
 00:33:11.404 --> 00:33:12.384
 each of these films in the
 
 00:33:12.424 --> 00:33:13.565
 revolution reflect the
 
 00:33:13.605 --> 00:33:15.425
 periods in which they were made.
 
 00:33:17.106 --> 00:33:17.646
 So, yes,
 
 00:33:17.846 --> 00:33:19.868
 I wish Mary Silliman's war was
 
 00:33:19.929 --> 00:33:20.650
 better known.
 
 00:33:21.069 --> 00:33:22.590
 And as both of you have said,
 
 00:33:22.951 --> 00:33:24.133
 I think it really does get
 
 00:33:24.192 --> 00:33:26.193
 at the nuances of the
 
 00:33:26.213 --> 00:33:27.655
 decisions that people are
 
 00:33:27.675 --> 00:33:31.057
 making in a small community.
 
 00:33:31.138 --> 00:33:32.219
 And one of the things that I
 
 00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:33.820
 really liked about it is
 
 00:33:33.861 --> 00:33:35.701
 that you often hear about
 
 00:33:36.282 --> 00:33:40.365
 the quote unquote patriot
 
 00:33:40.445 --> 00:33:42.768
 loyalists divide in the South.
 
 00:33:42.948 --> 00:33:43.449
 Mm hmm.
 
 00:33:43.924 --> 00:33:45.285
 don't hear a lot about that
 
 00:33:45.326 --> 00:33:46.625
 happening in New England.
 
 00:33:47.266 --> 00:33:49.307
 And Mary Solomon's war is in Connecticut.
 
 00:33:50.446 --> 00:33:51.347
 So that's one of the things
 
 00:33:51.407 --> 00:33:52.948
 I found really interesting
 
 00:33:53.728 --> 00:33:54.749
 about that film.
 
 00:33:56.368 --> 00:33:59.931
 And her story is that it's
 
 00:33:59.990 --> 00:34:00.851
 New England where you're
 
 00:34:00.871 --> 00:34:02.671
 seeing these clashes happening as well.
 
 00:34:03.231 --> 00:34:04.071
 Right.
 
 00:34:04.132 --> 00:34:05.692
 Another piece that it gets
 
 00:34:05.772 --> 00:34:07.212
 is the role of religion.
 
 00:34:07.512 --> 00:34:10.034
 That is, the pastor is her counselor.
 
 00:34:10.094 --> 00:34:12.215
 And this is a big part of her choice.
 
 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:14.260
 And you're right.
 
 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:16.021
 You also make the point about the,
 
 00:34:16.541 --> 00:34:17.001
 you know,
 
 00:34:17.402 --> 00:34:19.423
 the Patriot doesn't cover that
 
 00:34:20.744 --> 00:34:22.547
 intensity of the loyalist
 
 00:34:22.606 --> 00:34:24.168
 feeling in South Carolina
 
 00:34:24.208 --> 00:34:25.789
 the way Mary Silliman's war
 
 00:34:25.809 --> 00:34:26.750
 does of what's happening
 
 00:34:26.769 --> 00:34:28.110
 here among really ordinary people.
 
 00:34:29.331 --> 00:34:29.532
 Yeah.
 
 00:34:29.733 --> 00:34:34.476
 And the Patriot clearly
 
 00:34:34.717 --> 00:34:38.420
 wanted to concentrate on good American,
 
 00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:39.340
 bad English.
 
 00:34:39.721 --> 00:34:39.800
 Yeah.
 
 00:34:40.771 --> 00:34:42.492
 and making the English the villains.
 
 00:34:42.713 --> 00:34:44.414
 So if you have that tension
 
 00:34:44.474 --> 00:34:47.476
 between Americans,
 
 00:34:47.536 --> 00:34:48.817
 you can't really go there.
 
 00:34:48.856 --> 00:34:50.478
 You can't tell that story.
 
 00:34:52.478 --> 00:34:54.721
 And the other interesting
 
 00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:56.501
 aspect of that is if you
 
 00:34:56.561 --> 00:34:57.623
 look at something like
 
 00:34:57.663 --> 00:34:59.063
 Disney's The Swamp Fox,
 
 00:35:00.003 --> 00:35:01.405
 you get a very different message.
 
 00:35:02.166 --> 00:35:05.967
 You see that tension between
 
 00:35:06.128 --> 00:35:09.791
 Americans in a Disney television show.
 
 00:35:12.518 --> 00:35:14.380
 in the Patriot, really.
 
 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:16.161
 It's fascinating.
 
 00:35:16.262 --> 00:35:17.844
 And about twenty years earlier, too,
 
 00:35:17.884 --> 00:35:19.045
 they captured that.
 
 00:35:19.065 --> 00:35:21.067
 Exactly, yeah.
 
 00:35:21.126 --> 00:35:21.688
 I think, you know,
 
 00:35:21.728 --> 00:35:23.510
 Mel Gibson hates the British Empire,
 
 00:35:23.550 --> 00:35:25.110
 so that's kind of a running
 
 00:35:25.130 --> 00:35:26.193
 theme of his film.
 
 00:35:26.213 --> 00:35:28.434
 That's another pattern, definitely, yeah.
 
 00:35:29.956 --> 00:35:30.197
 Yeah.
 
 00:35:31.693 --> 00:35:32.295
 Well, thank you.
 
 00:35:32.434 --> 00:35:34.115
 We've been talking with Abby Chandler,
 
 00:35:34.195 --> 00:35:35.677
 a professor of history at
 
 00:35:35.737 --> 00:35:37.277
 the University of Massachusetts Lowell,
 
 00:35:37.297 --> 00:35:38.579
 who's editing H-Net's
 
 00:35:38.659 --> 00:35:40.320
 Remembering the American Revolution,
 
 00:35:40.340 --> 00:35:41.681
 a two-fifty collection.
 
 00:35:41.721 --> 00:35:43.902
 And the first issue has just
 
 00:35:43.961 --> 00:35:45.864
 dropped free online at
 
 00:35:46.204 --> 00:35:47.465
 H-Net for anyone to read,
 
 00:35:47.784 --> 00:35:48.865
 based on a true story,
 
 00:35:48.925 --> 00:35:49.806
 Remembering the American
 
 00:35:49.846 --> 00:35:51.166
 Revolution through Film,
 
 00:35:51.286 --> 00:35:52.847
 which Marianne Holtzcum
 
 00:35:52.887 --> 00:35:54.088
 from Kennesaw State
 
 00:35:54.128 --> 00:35:55.289
 University has written.
 
 00:35:55.349 --> 00:35:56.871
 And Marianne's written other things.
 
 00:35:56.891 --> 00:35:58.472
 And Marianne's also doing a new book on
 
 00:35:58.942 --> 00:36:00.523
 Place and the Revolutions.
 
 00:36:00.543 --> 00:36:01.324
 We'll have to have you back
 
 00:36:01.364 --> 00:36:03.146
 to talk about that at some point.
 
 00:36:03.166 --> 00:36:05.108
 So thank you both for joining us.
 
 00:36:05.128 --> 00:36:06.929
 It's been fun talking to you.
 
 00:36:07.010 --> 00:36:07.990
 Thank you for having us.
 
 00:36:08.172 --> 00:36:08.711
 Thank you.
 
 00:36:09.353 --> 00:36:10.693
 And let me thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:36:10.713 --> 00:36:12.755
 our producer, our man behind the curtain.
 
 00:36:12.996 --> 00:36:14.717
 And I want to thank our listeners.
 
 00:36:14.757 --> 00:36:16.000
 Every week we thank folks in
 
 00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:16.940
 different places who are
 
 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:18.161
 tuning in regularly.
 
 00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:20.302
 And we have actually all
 
 00:36:20.382 --> 00:36:21.623
 over the world tuning in.
 
 00:36:22.244 --> 00:36:22.885
 So this week,
 
 00:36:22.925 --> 00:36:23.626
 if you're in one of these
 
 00:36:23.666 --> 00:36:24.869
 places and want some of our
 
 00:36:24.909 --> 00:36:26.490
 Revolution two fifty swag,
 
 00:36:26.510 --> 00:36:27.773
 send Jonathan an email.
 
 00:36:27.813 --> 00:36:30.215
 Jay Lane at Revolution two fifty dot org.
 
 00:36:31.099 --> 00:36:31.780
 And by the way,
 
 00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:32.800
 it's just occurring to me
 
 00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:34.061
 how appropriate it was that
 
 00:36:34.081 --> 00:36:35.541
 we found someone named
 
 00:36:35.581 --> 00:36:37.023
 Jonathan to be the director
 
 00:36:37.043 --> 00:36:38.242
 of Revolution Two-Fifty.
 
 00:36:38.262 --> 00:36:41.445
 So folks in Leawood,
 
 00:36:41.485 --> 00:36:43.686
 Kansas and Santa Rosa and
 
 00:36:43.746 --> 00:36:46.268
 San Francisco in California, Queens,
 
 00:36:46.307 --> 00:36:48.048
 New York, Hamilton, New Jersey,
 
 00:36:48.088 --> 00:36:49.590
 places between and beyond.
 
 00:36:49.610 --> 00:36:50.891
 And now we will be piped out
 
 00:36:51.291 --> 00:36:52.251
 on the road to Boston.
 
 00:36:52.311 --> 00:36:52.692
 Thank you.