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reversing climate change. Cast. I'm Ross, Kenyan I am the lead strategist at the Nori carbon removal Marketplace. Today I have with me Jared DeWees senior Communications advisor for the climate and energy program, at Third Way, a center-left federal policy, think tank in d.c.? Hey Jared! Hey, Roz, how are you? I'm doing. Well, thanks for being on the show. Thank you for having me. I was very intrigued by the
report. Y'all just issued a research report called Black Americans care about climate change parenthetical, but it's complicated. So we're going to dive into what the report deals with, but maybe I'm going to channel my co-host In Absentia, Christoph, Jaws pay. We like to start with people's stories. So Jared, what led you to this point right here in your career? Yeah, well thanks for asking and again, thank you for having me on.
So I started a third way about almost three years ago and I wanted to work in the political space. I wanted to work toward Type of change. And I don't have a traditional climate Energy background. I've taken a few classes in climate and energy policy and graduate school. And that is what kind of led me to Third Way. But prior, to Third Way, I had a very unorthodox route. I was a teacher at one point for New Year, in New York City in the Bronx.
I also worked in fashion Communications, which people always find interesting, but my undergraduate degrees in theater and that's what led me to New York. So I have I'm a pretty unorthodox winding road to Third Way, but all along the way, it was my passion for communications and giving voice to the voiceless. When I was a kid, my very first political memory, my family was very politically engaged. I'm from Great Falls, South Carolina, very small town, in the Piedmont of South Carolina.
And one of my very first political memories was the first election of Bill Clinton. In my elementary school, there was a mock election and you know, you had people who were on, you know, going for George Be punished and my family traditionally Democrats. Historically Democrats. I was fighting for Bill Clinton, who was my John F, Kennedy might not be popular to say now, but, you know, for me, he was, and got me involved in wanting to inspire people, to vote, and,
and getting people activated. And so, I remember wearing, I had a clinton-gore tee shirt. I used to wear it three times a week. My mother had to rinse it out every single night. And I would wear it to school, trying to get people to vote in this mock election, for Bill Clinton. And since that moment to this moment, no matter, whether it was getting, you know, 5th graders to vote, for Bill Clinton, he did lose that
election. In high school, we won a national election or whether it was teaching students in the Bronx in New York City or whether it was trying to encourage Trends in the fashion industry to now to communicating to different audiences about climate and climate policy. My own mission in life, is always been about making change happen for progress. You must have been a demanding pupil that's really annoying kid. Actually I said it diplomatically your in, right?
Do you ask all of my cousins and all of my elementary school friends? They'll just say annoying but it all turned out well, in the end. I mean I was a bit of a Class Clown growing up and I wearing, yeah, fifth grade we had every student had to choose a president and somehow, my name got drawn. First, I remember everyone looked at me and I said, Bill Clinton and The class was just like, I don't know. I know what's going to happen.
All I really remember from that presentation I gave was holding up a can of peaches and talking about impeachment I don't it wasn't my finest work in humor. I think I've improved since then but I think it's remember it though. I bet they remembered as ever, I'll never forget that moment indeed. All right so that's a good place. You got us up to the present. Now what is this report and what led to its creation black Americans care about climate change, but it's complicated.
Phyllis in. Yeah, so we've been working on finding ways to, you know, give voice to demographics that are often unheard in a climate conversation for about a year and, you know, as are the senior vice president of our program says, you know, we should have started this, this work a long time ago because there's been so little work done within the climate advocacy Community around black Americans, that it's past due. And so I was pushing forward my essay. BP was pushing forward.
And, you know we said that this is really important to our work to make sure that the solutions that we were advocating for. We're both Equitable and fair because black Americans, not only make a huge voting Block in the Democratic party, but they make up a huge part of the constituency and the US that will be impacted both by climate change as well as climate policies to address the climate crisis. So, you know, we felt that it only was it was only natural and
authentic. For us to do this work. And so we began this research, the qualitative portion in February of this year and it was over a couple of couple of weeks. And it was in Detroit.
Michigan, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and Greensboro North Carolina. We initially were intending to do qualitative and quantitative, but at the end of our qualitative research, the global Health pandemic had really taken its toll on the us. And we decided that the quantitative research that we were going to go into the field with wouldn't match the qualitative research that we'd already conducted because priorities worshipping you know
people were concerned about more immediate concerns about health and job safety and their own safety rather than climate in the immediate. Now that's research that we plan to go back in and look at in the future. But at that moment, it just didn't really make sense to put that qualitative research that we conducted in our quantitative research together. Hmm. What sort of results did you see off of this first phase? Yeah, so we Three main takeaways.
And the first of which, you know, it's something. We all know that black Americans care about climate change. We've seen that in Yale's quantitative study, as well as some other research that we've seen. However, we found in the groups that we talked to that, while they cared about climate change, it was a bit more complicated.
That it wasn't a top-tier issue for them that jobs racism in the economy rated higher for them, but we probed a little further with groups in each City. You would find that if you talked about climate and connection to health, impacts our climate in relationship to jobs, are climbing in relationship to relocation all the things that we know are going to have a huge that climate are going to is going to have a huge impact on. We found that people were deeply
concerned about those things. So it was about how you talk to communities about climate and how you connect it to their daily allies. That would show that how much more they cared about it and then they initially cited, The second takeaway that we found was that no one is talking to the communities that we talk to you about climate change.
They often said that, you know, researchers and politicians only come around when they need something from them when they need research or when they need a vote. But that no one was providing sustained communication with these communities about climate change and part of that is that, you know, a lot of people think that because climate may fall, you know, is less saline in Black communities. Is that they aren't as interested in the issue, but that's not true. And, you know, they are
interested. It's about how you talk to them about it. So they said no one's talking to us about it. The third thing that we found was that clean energy jobs, and resources seemed Out Of Reach to the communities. We talked to in particular, in
Detroit are college educated. Mixed-gender Group found that are they said that they knew of clean energy job training in the area, but they neither knew how to That with that and neither knew anyone who did connect with it and they felt that it was for
wealthier wider communities. And so you know what, we ultimately decided and what we found at this research suggests, it was that you know policymakers and climate Advocates, have a long way to go to connect climate to the daily lives of African Americans in these communities and to make it
also more Salient to them. And to make sure that they have access, Us. We also we understand that you know, in healthcare African-Americans, there's a big, there's barriers to access the same thing goes for climate and for clean energy. Resources to what degree? Do you think this is a story about the environmental kuznets? Curve, which if you're listening and you're not familiar with. It's basically that humans will trash their environment but that
leads to more wealth. And then when they are wealthy enough, they start caring about the environment. Again, the story is also challenging disputed from multiple angles so don't feel like you have to swallow it whole. A good example of the environmental kuznets curve might be where wealthy enough to care about something like polar bears, but you're not necessarily linking that climate change, negative outcome to something like my kids have to carry around a device, a
nebulizer, or they could die. So that's quite different. I imagine, what, which one is it? Do you think or both? Yeah, I think it's more of the latter, than the former I do. Think it's about connecting to tangible evidence than it is about the curve.
I think that generally, the reason why I say that, That is because we talked to African-Americans a very, socioeconomic backgrounds, and various educational backgrounds, and gender and Age. And what we found was that, no matter the gender, no matter the age, no matter, their socioeconomic background, no matter the education, they all said, the same thing, is that? No one is connecting this to my
daily life. So that speaks to me of the latter, rather than the former and what sorts of climate impacts are African Americans already experiencing or could expect to experience. Yeah, I mean for instance we think about the relocation, I mean African-Americans. Systemic racism has made redlining, and for anyone who doesn't know, don't know what redlining is. Redlining it was a systemic practice where US Banks denied
mortgages to people. Mostly people of color, mostly black people in urban areas, preventing them from buying a home in certain neighborhoods. So this practice was largely in places like, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit and other places where there are large black Missions. And so what happened was that African-Americans were placed in communities that were usually near petrochemical plants or other places that would create
environmental hazards. And so that increased Health impacts not only that is that those are the places that tend to there that are going to have the most impact from climate change, and they're going to either have to. If they are low income, they're going to have to stay in those area and stuff for from work. Health impacts as well as environmental hazards or they'll be forced to move if they can. I mean we saw this in New Orleans during Katrina.
So you know that's a microcosm of what the climate crisis will do to Black communities is that typically what is meant by environmental racism, which we need to do a full and proper show about it but maybe this is a good place to introduce the concept to our listeners. Absolutely, you know, we found in our research, the term environmental justice didn't
read. Any with the participants that we talked to. But when we talked about racism and climate that sparked more interest from the participants. And so I do think personally, when you talk about environmental racism, it raises more flags for African-Americans and saying environmental justice. And we talked a little bit about this today during a briefing.
We held around this research is that you know, maybe people think with environmental justice you're thinking it's tied to the courts or like you're taking You know, polluters to court. Where's environmental racism? I know of racism is I deal with racism every day? And so I can understand that if I live somewhere, my are is dirtier.
I'm going to have greater impacts than another Community because of the color of my skin that's easier and more tangible to understand than the term environmental justice. So environmental racism is definitely directly linked to redlining and other systemic failures and it could even be redlining has Is intentionality behind it but I could also see it. Just operating through race is correlated with wealth and poverty, to some extent.
People of color are more poor on average than white people in the United States. And I imagined land values, and rents are much cheaper around dirtier, more dangerous environments. So it might not entirely be intentional, but those outcomes still might have a racial component to them. Is that an appropriate way to see it? I think that's an appropriate way to see. I mean, we look at some of the practices and some of the policy consequences of say the New Deal
from the 1930s. Some of those were intentional and some of those were not but they still, you know, prove to be racist unintentional and in central policies that had terrible effects for African Americans in this country. So whether it was intentional or non-intentional black people still suffer. Got it. Yeah. Actually I just heard the other day that Social Security was not accessible to Americans until I think Truman is that yeah? Right.
Yeah so you had during the New Deal there, where the Dixiecrats who did not want domestics are field workers to receive Social Security benefits and those people tend to be black. Do they actually single those two like labor occupational classes out in the law? Yeah, yeah. Wow. No idea. Wow. Yeah. There is There's a really good book that I'm, it's called and
actually have it on my desk. Now, it's all when informative action was white and it talks about the new deal because a new deal, primarily benefited white blue collar workers. I mean, the the middle class that grew out of World War Two. There were a lot of black people. Yes. Indeed, Who Rose to the middle
class at that period. There were disproportionately more white people who grew out of, you know, the white middle class grew disproportionately more than any other race in this country because as of the new deal and because of World War Two, That's fascinating. The New Deal has. So much mythology around it too which isn't to say there aren't great parts of it that we're better off for having. But there's also all these stories in here that are absurd
racist. They're also things like farmer's being paid to burn crops and all sorts of contradictory policies that house one scratching one's head. But how do you deal with that Legacy? Because the rhetoric is cribbed for the green, new deal, right?
So we're we're using this imaginary and trying to harken back to this moment where It felt like the government had social democracy in its sights, and this is something that was going to happen in the United States and this is in the midst of the Great Depression. So what lessons do you think might be learned from the New Deal in creating one? That is one not racist and to Works quite well for dealing with climate change and all of the issues that relate to it.
Yeah, I think, you know, we're seeing some of that, especially with Vice President Biden. He's, you know, he just released a climate initiative, the second part of his climate plan, and Core part of that plan was environmental justice ensuring that there are no intentional or unintentional policy consequences for people who will suffer the most from climate
change. Part of that plan is about just transitions, you know, ensuring that workers who may do be displaced in a clean energy transition. Have, you know, a job to go to or are in least we will study how we can make that transition more Equitable for people who
are going to be displaced. And so you know, we're seeing that more More especially in light of you know Rising racial protest after the murders of, you know, Ahmad arbitrary, George Floyd and Brianna Taylor. I think that the time is we've learned from the mistakes of the past. I mean, I think the New Deal had, you know, great aspirations and it intended to lift all people, but it did not.
And so now we're in a, we understand that, and we also understand that, you know, Rising tide, doesn't lift. It doesn't look tall boots. So if we want to lift boats we have to do that in a more concerted and directed effort to communities. Who tend to get left behind what Provisions do you think are really crucial for doing that? Just transitions seems like a good place to start.
Making sure people are not abandoned after a lifetime of accumulating skills which have been rendered obsolete, by law and just environmental stewardship. What else might be connected to raise house? One be an anti-racist in this Said he I realize all these questions are gigantic Jared. You can tell me if I'm if I'm asking you to bite off more than one should be expected to chew.
I think the way that one is anti racism, that is a huge question is to really think about the systems that have been designed to hold people back. And then to think about how one might not participate in those systems.
And then to question other people who might be participating in those systems or perpetuating the Those systems to me, it seems like an easy question, maybe, because I am black, and I because of that, I have suffered under those systemic failures, but I think that that is how it answer.
It is, you know, think about your place in that system, how can you address those failures and how can you challenge other people to do the same and that whether that's in challenging your friends in their conversation and the terms that they use or whether that's in the policy?
We design, you know, making sure that we're not leaving people behind and we're not intentionally or unintentionally causing people to suffer and that's hard and Italy that the latter that is harder than the former. But it is something that we have grown as a society more compassionate to doing and we have to constantly challenge ourselves to do that. Well, sure, fair enough.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and I'm going to spiel for a second and it's, this might be, this might not make Make sense, but we're going to give it a try anyways, okay. When I think about the creation of the welfare state, I think about Otto von Bismarck being pretty conservative guy in Germany late 19th century, trying to make sure that the Socialist don't rise up and cause a revolution and overthrew
the monarchy and and such. And so how do you give people enough comfort and safety such that they don't feel angry enough to tip over the oxcart as it were and this is a very conservative framing. Stand that but isn't it concerning to people that it does feel like we're in danger
from both? Like my friends who are left of center are increasingly radical and then the people I know who support Trump and then Trump himself seems to be acting increasingly authoritarian ways that I find frightening. They seem to feed off of each other, which is extra bad. Wouldn't it? Just be in the interest of everyone who likes Law and Order and safety and comfort to try?
To deal with these foundational issues in America such that we could believe in it and trust it and not be at each other's throats at that seems like a very unifying kind of thing for me. I wish that was more common. Hmm. That's interesting. I think that give me a second of that one. Yeah. Sorry. Was that it was that hot garbage? I don't know. I think what I'm looking for is the question. Specifically, like, are you asking about, trust in government?
Are you asking about how How to Stamp Out Revolution. I guess that's when I'm trying to understand quash the revolution. No, I think the question I have in mind here particular as my failure for not ask no, no, he's probably do you know, Mike Duncan the podcast, read History of Rome and revolutions. You're never heard of it.
It's great. And he sort of takes this this sort of Bismarck and approach, I think is politics are left of center but he's always talking about like, oh, okay, Rome was on the danger of collapse or it had left, left-leaning politicians. Populist who are going to cause a revolution and so, these grain reforms happened or whatever.
As a way of postponing. This revolution, seems like if you're conservative at least somewhat, you would want to be thinking about reforms that preserve American order without leading to some of the things that my deeply increasingly radical left-wing friends support. But I don't see a lot of that, I don't know. Yeah, I don't think there's an any incentive to do that. I mean, our politics are incredibly the most polarized they've been in In X, right? So there's no incentive to do
that. Our media is polarized, if you are conservative, you tend to watch Fox News and it's a cycle of reinforcing what you already believe and your politician speak to you in that way, you speak back to your politicians that way. And so there's no incentive for politicians or Advocates on the right to bend to that because they'll get primary They won't get reelected. They won't get the favor of this President. So what is the incentive is the incentive for consensus.
When you also have the left who may or may not be interested in that consensus and both sides, the most well-intentioned of them believe that what they're advocating for are the best things for people. So there's really no Ascent incentive when when We're squared off in two different cans. So yeah, I think that's that's the issue from the right. Specifically. I think the left we tend to bend a little bit more. We tend to want to compromise. We want to get to consensus, but
we don't really get the same. We don't get the reciprocity from the right on that. Yeah, I don't, I don't see a lot of it either. It's, it's disappointing. And I had actually had a podcast, or I did recently that encouraged me to think more that these Cycles come back around. And, There are periods of Discord. And then there's Concord, and it's okay. This happens, I don't always get to the sense that we're going to make it through the other side of this.
How are you concerned or, or am I being a bit Chicken Little here? Yeah, so I'm an optimist, I'm an eternal optimist and I, you know, I look at the history of this country and I look at, I look at how far African Americans had actually come. And while, you know, there are times We take two steps forward and we take 10 steps back. We do get to that point where we are better than we were and as human beings. We are, you know, we there's progress, there is evolution, I'm a gay man.
When I was in high school, you know, I, when I came out in high school, I didn't ever conceive of the fact that I would ever get married and have children. And, you know, now I live in a country where I can and it's possible in every state of the union. I mean, when I first moved to d.c. my ex-boyfriend, I said to him. I will never live in Virginia because Virginia doesn't allow
gay marriage. We can live in Maryland, we can live in d.c. within a year or two gay marriage was legal everywhere or marriage, equality was real. So, you know, progress is is possible. We just have to keep fighting for it. And the more apathy that, you know, develops I think that that is the seed of Destruction, for Progress. Yeah, it's a surprising how fast that happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was happening actually.
Yeah. I remember it just being a long-running campaign issue, all through my adolescence and early adulthood and then it was just like, oh, by the way, this, you know, major cultural change happen. Yeah. Of course overnight. It was also the third rail of politics at one point. You just didn't touch I mean, don't ask don't tell all, you know, defensive Marriage Act, you know, so many things that happen along the way that were just like, this is never going
to happen. And then it just happened in the state by state, by Court decision by Court decision until it became real. And then public opinion moved. That's what really shifted it. And so, I think, you know, we're seeing we're hopefully seeing that. Now when it comes to police brutality and and systemic racism, I saw a poll that said that, you know, more people concerned about how President Trump was handling. The racial protest, then they were about how he was handling
coronavirus. So the deaths, the murders of four black people in this country have shifted. How many white people are looking at race and this country, I mean, I was listening to a podcast the daily yesterday about, you know, Congressman John Lewis and how you know when he went on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, he, you know, War a, you know, Hand colored coat just in case he was hit by the police.
In the blood was flattered on end and that shifted, you know, people seeing in the south on a news, every night children being set upon by dogs by the police that shifted public opinion. And so I think that you know, we're seeing that moment now we won't know that for 20 or 30 years, you know, history like his hindsight is 20/20, so we won't know that for, you know,
years from now. But it does feel like a shift, you know, we're seeing topics like Systemic racism, become kitchen, table conversation, we're seeing topics like environmental, justice and environmental racism, come up on podcast and on the Nightly News in a way that we did not see let alone five years ago, five months ago. So there is a shift that is happening is just about sustaining. This moment to make sure that we have actual real practical change.
You made me feel a little bit better, so I can breathe a little bit. Well, good, good that, that was my intention. Yeah yeah. Reassure the podcast host. That's that's the yeah. Yeah. I it's a shame because I like I've traveled a lot. I've been in lots of places. I like being an American, I'm proud to be an American, it's my home but I wish I could just I feel the need to. I just saw this on another podcast recently.
I feel the need to give caveats, even saying that and I would love it if we could deal with some of the foundational issues in American history that led to To the way things are now so that we could just feel good about it. And also, I understand that I benefit in relative terms by being white and a heterosexual and cisgender and all these things. But I also feel like I would be objectively better off. If people were not in such strict inequality on various those fronts.
I think about how many people that are just sort of Lost in the black hole of poverty, that will never have their minds creating businesses or art. For other things that we are all made less healthy, less safe, less wealthy as a result of, not having those people able to advance our society. It just feels like dead weight loss to me, I guess I understand that in relative terms that as a white person I benefit but I do
feel just worse off. I don't, I don't actually know to what degree I am benefiting in that way. I think I would be better off if we didn't have this system set up the way that it is. Does that make sense? Or no, that definitely makes sense. I think, you know what's interesting? To me is that as a black man? I, you know, white friends of mine are wrestling with these same questions. Now, James Baldwin said to be a negro in this country is to be almost in a constant state of rage.
And I would all would almost say that I would take the almost out and say it is a you know to be a constant state of rage. And remember why friend of mine asked me recently? So you know, how do you get up every morning to have hope? I said, well what other choice do I have?
And I think that that is true of most black people and I think that that is true most poor people like I get up every day and make a decision that today is going to be better than the day before and then I'm going to do whatever I can to make my life better and the lives of everyone who looks like me better, at least that's how I wake up every morning. I know most of the black people that I know have that same, you know, Mantra as far as what racism does to this country.
I think about the words of Alexander Hamilton who said that slavery, Was nothing but wasted potential and that's the same thing that racism does racism is wasted potential. You know, we waste people who could be great and solve some of the greatest challenges in this country because they can't either get a job. They can't get the education to get that job and they can't live in a community or a zip code
that ensures their success. And so, I think that, you know, we're in a moment where white people are wrestling with this
in a way that they never cry. We have or white people who are wrestling with it now and you know aren't from people who ever wrestle with it and I think that you know black people like me now or we've all been always been confrontational about this and we've always been challenging the status quo on this but I think we're much more forceful now because we see an opening and we see an opportunity to really make real sustained change and to me that provides even more a sense of
optimism and hope than I've ever had before. I've always been proud to be an American. I mean, w.e.b. Du Bois talked about this double-consciousness and that, that our patriotism is updated because of the history of slavery because of the history of systemic racism. It's not as easy as I fly an American flag and I feel great and you know I feel the Star-Spangled Banner in my heart, you know, I can't forget that even under that flag and even under that Anthem slaves
were held in this country. And so I am proud because I know that progress is real and Progress can happen. But I also understand the history of this country. Yeah, that was beautiful. I, I'm glad you're talking me down. What? I guess it. Given that you see an opening here. What sorts of expectations do you have for this historical moment in America?
Yeah, I think I see opportunities to, you know, like we talked about earlier correcting, some of the systemic failures of the past and policies, you know, making sure that, you know people have access to clean energy, clean energy, you know, resources jobs that they have the information, they need to challenge the system and that, you know, elected leaders are held to task and our response to the people that they represent in a way that they never have.
For and that people are as in, they're engaged enough to say, okay, you're not responding to the problems of the whole in a way that is moving us forward. So we're going to vote you out. It's time for you to go. Either you listen to these concerns? Are you have to go? And I think we're, you know, we're seeing that movement.
And we're, and I think that this is a very complicated moment where, you know, with cancel culture and all of these other things, and I think we're wrestling with those. Social Challenges. Now that we're going to get to a place where people are far more engaged than they ever have
been. And that we're going to have policies that are in response to what people actually need so that they can succeed and fulfill the actual ideals that this country was founded upon, I hope you don't mind that I went this Direction with the shows. It has been a great spine. I mean, I think it's all connected. I think that you can't pursue happiness. If If you don't live in a place where the air is clean, and that the are impacts your health and that you don't have to move, or
you don't have a job. All of these things are going to be impacted by climate. So I think they're connected and I think that that's part of the problem is that we don't talk about it in this way, with black communities. And that's why it can be hard to understand, and that's why it can be hard to activate communities around this topic. And one of the angles that you conclude the report on is that this is to some degree, a problem of communication and reaching out to these communities.
How do you recommend doing so, or who might be a good communicator? What what needs to happen in order to mobilize communities of color? I think we do want to do more research to find out what is the best messages and message and who are the best Messengers for these things. But I like, you know, going back to what we said. You know, we have to make it
more tangible. And as far as you know Messengers we need to You know make sure policy makers are not just talking about police brutality and Criminal Justice Reform and all of the typical African-American issues with African Americans and they're talking about issues like climate change and how that's going to impact our exacerbate, all of those other issues that tend to be top tier issues for the African-American Community. Oh, I imagine y'all are working
on this. But are there other groups that are trying to develop content or messaging around? Yeah, I mean, you know like I mentioned earlier Yale School of climate change communication released a report on this about a year ago, the environmental defense fund also releases study about African-American and clean energy resources. The center for American progress is also interested in this, the union of concerned scientists is also deeply involved in this
work. They released a report, a year ago, around this time, actually, the killer heat index that showed that, you know, African-American. Ins and I'll get the exact data for you to hit. You know, it show that African Americans are exposed to extreme temperatures two to three days more per year in certain counties in the US. So certain Counties have more exposure to heat than others and mostly black people live in those counties and by mid-century the expectation.
Is that some of those same counties would experience? 20 more extreme heat days per year. So, you know, a lot of people are starting to do more, This research, connecting it with climate, you know, Acting the climate, advocacy community and the environmental justice movement in a way that is tangible for these communities and trying to activate them. And also make sure policymakers understand the concerns of these communities.
To what degree have you thought about the necessity or lack thereof of Reaching Across the aisle? I know there are conservative proposals for addressing climate change. We featured some of them on the show but I imagine some of these proposals Might stick in their craw, one could say, so what is the political strategy for getting policy passed? That will at least pass a
divided Congress? You know, it would be great to say that I could name a republican in the house or the Senate who, you know, I think would be willing to work across the aisle on some of these issues. But I can't really, I know that they have released, you know, Frameworks for climate. That either aren't backed by the science. Are not exactly serious.
And so for me, I think the best and fastest way to reach net zero emissions by 2050 at the latest is to elect more Democrats. Every single Democrat in this country who is running or has been elected. Has a climate plan all the way to Joe Biden, and if I look at that preponderance of evidence and I look At the other side of the aisle. It's kind of hard to see where we can build that consensus. Now will it always be like that? No, it hasn't always been. I mean George h.w.
Bush was serious about climbing, he was serious about the environment but since that time we haven't had, it hasn't been insensitive for Republicans to care about this issue. In the we have seen, as far as certain Technologies, there's consensus between the two parties. You know, Republicans do tend to support ants nuclear and existing nuclear and that's something the center left.
And now more more than before the far left have grown consensus on carbon capture seems to be a technology that Republicans or warming to as well as the far left. So I think there are areas around Technologies but as far as Holistic Solutions to The Climate crisis, that's a little harder to find a consensus on. Yeah, I'm vacillated on this a
little bit. I used to be think that we should focus quite heavily just on climate change and was a bit suspicious that the left was using this as an opportunity to pass a lot of social programs that they have previously wanted, but could not pass. But this was a useful opportunity to pass under the Aegis of climate action.
But after doing doing shows like this and reading quite a lot, I'm starting to think that merely addressing the parts per million in the atmosphere, may not be sufficient to deal with all of the Justice concerns. And this might be the chance to do so, so I'm not sure. There's I hope that conservatives and republicans in Congress in particular, are able to find ways to contribute and be a part of climate Solutions.
And there are groups to like, American conservation Coalition, has their American climate contract, and I'm sure there are others to that. I'm forgetting here or here in d.c., you have Path isn't organization, predominately conservative organization that advocates for some of the same solutions that we advocate for niskanen Center is one that is to the right of us. There are other, you know, groups out there who are, you know, pushing the Republican
party. But again, as long as they're reinforced by their electorate, that they don't need to care about this and we're starting to see a shift and, you know, among Republican voters that they are caring more about climate change. And they're caring more about issues like Systemic racism as well.
So it would be I am hopeful that that push in the electorate will also change the policy makers but they're, you know, we have to get rid of Mitch McConnell. You know, there's a whole host of Republican politicians, that would probably need to go because they don't actually care about the electorate before, we can actually see that change happen.
Yeah, maybe so at least anecdotally, I've seen, you know, since I became politically aware, you know, what do you but even is Maybe close to two decades ago. There was a lot more climate denial that I would see in more mainstream areas where most of the people that would occupy that intellectual Niche. Now, tend to be lukewarmness or the saying climate change is happening.
It's not as fast or not, as severe as we think, or will be able to adapt to it more easily Than People typically think the or the alarm is think. So that that change do has happened pretty seriously? So I wonder what the next step is. It seems like some of the leaders who are front-running that are groups like ACC where Saying like climate change is real, it's happening.
We're causing it. And also here's a chance for conservatives to have market-based solutions that are not creating a social democracy, in the United States, any more than we have now, and we should do this. So I imagine that's probably going to be the next step and that surely is coming. It ability to deny climate change as a looming threat, even the Pentagon and the dod very, very concerned. The military is very concerned with what is going to happen with climate change.
It's not really something that's actively debated, except for people who have Ideological interest in denying it, so I imagine we'll see more of that movement and maybe you'll be as fast as it was for gay marriage. Maybe it will just wake up one day and be like, Oh, Republicans now, believe climate change is a real threat. They just don't want it to be the green New Deal that addresses it. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think part of that is due to the
media as well. You know, a lot of shows had decided that they would not have climate denial list on their shows or they would not start because my graduate school thesis was about the polarization of Of climate change in American politics from 1988 to 2019, long time, long title. But in my thesis, I talked about how that shift happened. You know, we had a George h.w.
Bush and, you know, we had more consensus, but then you had certain groups, certain things, you know, think tanks on the right who believe that climate change would, you know, inhibit their donors. Who were largely fossil fuel Barons, so to speak and they would force For FCC laws to, you know, new stations to say, okay, we if you have someone who's talking about climate change and who's not a denial list, we need to have a denial and so on, you'd have to give them equal
time. And now you see, you know, show saying actually no we're not going to have people on who deny the science because this science is accepted, you know, more than 97% of scientists. Say the climate change is real and it's happening now and I think that's part of it as well. So we're getting more. Or of the science to people and in a row as form and people are expecting it.
I think the Tropic ministration is a throwback like it's a step backwards by him having climbed annihilus as part of his commission's and, and the over 100, you know, environmental rollbacks, or propose rollbacks. That he's announced. I think that, you know, is a step back, but, you know, we have an opportunity, we have an opportunity on November 3rd to say we're going Reject this climate denialism, this anti intellectualism and we can choose progress, you know, we'll
see on November 3rd, hopefully. We'll know by November 4th, well, you know, we don't know. But, you know, hopefully we'll know like, on January 20 20th, you know, 2021, we can turn the page. I don't know that. The I think even if you are a republican voter, I think you
should recognize that. I don't know that the country would do well for Another four years of this, like I think inevitably the Trump Arizona come to an end, whether it's for years from now or in November, or I guess in January. But do you think we'll ask that why? I feel like there's so many my friends who are left of center.
They're like, they're veering like super radical now and I don't think the change you're going to get is going to be someone, you know, Biden is of course, you know, working with the Sanders campaign and trying to adopt some of those policy positions of Sanders and trying to make sure that the the left wing of the democratic party in the more Central Our are aligned there. Would you rather have that or would you rather have whatever comes after?
The country is exhausted from trump, it doubt is going to be really like more of the same kind of B in less threatening to the porter. Yeah, I find that argument very challenging you know I hear people who say you know it's the lesser of two evils and I think that argument is false because I mean we want to talk about evil like Joe, Biden is a decent human being and he wants to do the right. Thing, I don't believe that about Donald Trump.
And if you believe that like I do at least, if you believe that, you know, Joe Biden is not a dastardly man, like, you know, Donald Trump. Then you, you've already made your decision and you have to understand that we can't continue another. We can't continue to let this man. Be at the Helm of the Public Health crisis that we're now in during largely because of his lack of leadership and lack of vision. And even beyond that, like, Next disaster.
Looming right around the corner whether it's another Public Health endemic but for sure the climate crisis is right around the corner and we're already you know seeing impacts of that we don't have to wait until 2035 or 2050 or whatever day. You know whatever year. You know we want to put out there we're seeing it now. We're seeing hotter days.
You know, we're seeing intense flooding, we're seeing people having to leave the place that they have always lived because they can't live there anymore and that's only going to come More intense and worse over the years and having people like Donald Trump who also doesn't challenge, you know, Putin and humble senado, who are far worse, and who's to say that? Donald Trump won't become worse than the next four years or as bad, or worse than they are. So we have a choice, we have a
choice to look forward. We have a choice to look back. And I'd also don't I find it hard to, you know, acknowledge that, you know, people who say that not voting is an option. Well, to me not voting is also a vote for Donald Trump. All right, Jared, You Gotta Give me one little nugget of positivity here and you got anything. Anything in your quiver? You can throw out real quick. I think that I have hope I have hoping the American people.
I have hope in the American Experience because every time that we have looked backward, we've then turn the page to look forward. Okay. I guess that's where we're going to have to have to. Call it and hopefully be okay with it and try to keep this this hope alive here. Hopefully if I didn't inspire you in that moment, there's a there is a person out there who's like, you know what, I had a little bit more hope I'm gonna
go vote. Yeah, maybe so I'm always curious as to what degree people people. Enjoy political episodes like this or that unexpectedly became electoral but that's okay. All right, where can people learn more? About your work and more about third ways work, Jared. Absolutely. You know, please go to Third Way dot org. And, you know, follow us on Third Way energy on Twitter links to any, I imagine have a personal Twitter to I do, it's at Jarrod do. He's my name is at ja our EDD.
Ew e, SE links to all of those things are in the show notes, as well as the original piece that we're talking about Black Americans care about climate change, but it's complicated. Thanks. Being here Jarrod, thank you. Ross was a pleasure was mine too and if you enjoyed the show please rate and review us on iTunes. Apple podcast Stitcher, tell your friends and thank you for listening, but thank you so much for listening.
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