You're listening to the reversing climate change, podcast by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace. This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs developing solutions to climate change. Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change
podcast. I'm Ross Kenyon today I have with me. Dr. Will shroob our assistant, professor of architectural, engineering and Material Science, at University of Colorado Boulder, technical director of materials are India. Patera and co-chair of the carbon leadership Forum Network. And you also serve as the Global Hub director. Do you have much free time? Well, I do get enough. Sleep occasionally, that's good.
I'm happy to hear that. Well a colleague of mine passed me your article at the conversation called buildings, grown by bacteria. New research is finding ways to turn cells and too many factories for materials naturally. This caught my attention. I imagine someone Thing has never heard anything quite like this, unless they're already plugged into the space. So what is happening with Materials Science? What inspired you to write this? What is going on?
Yeah, you know, I agree. I think I think it's a an interesting thought provoking proposal but a little bit about me. I grew up on the plains of Southeast Texas on a cotton Farm in cattle ranch, and to me going outside, living on a farm. Everything was very much alive. And I remember driving into the city, big city of Houston to go to baseball games, I'm at the Astrodome with my dad and first being in awe that humans could build such structures.
It's what really inspired me to become a structural engineer. But I realized that when you, when you go into the city, everything is quite sterile and quite static. And what is human? You know, as human. And then what is not the natural world, is really kind of
separated from that. You can kind of think of Stark contrasts like Central Park. For example, where you have This green space that is really nature, separated away from, from what it, what is human and in that human space, the built environment. You have materials like concrete glass and steel that again are are quite sterile static, very much not alive and you know, growing up on the farm and being the generation that urbanized into cities.
I really found a Lot of inspiration in in that really in blurring the boundaries between between what is natural and what is built. And so throughout my career, I've really dope into concept related to sustainability in the built environment. Understanding environmental impacts of building materials certainly energy consumption.
Certainly embodied carbon. But really in my, in my academic research, we toy with discs these Ideas of bringing buildings to life and really truly blurring those boundaries. Why would you want a building to be alive or to blur the distinctions between the organic and the built or the human-created? Why would one even want to do that? They're certainly great
research. There's certainly great research that shows the benefits of biophilia and you know, right now even today we're incorporating more and more biomaterials into the built environment. And the greatest example that I can give you right now, some pioneering work that has come out of Europe and into the United States and that's building with mass Timber.
And so now we are able To build large-scale structural systems out of out of biomaterials and there are certainly perceived benefits for for building with natural materials being exposed to more natural environments even though you are indoors. And that just leads to occupant productivity, occupant Comfort feelings of Wellness, well-being, and even in Office Buildings, you know, there's there's Is documented evidence that shows people people are out sick less.
If they are in a building that has incorporated, a lot of biophilia and certainly, you know, that that is that that's certainly an attractive quality of those materials. You know what my work does is take, take it one step further and say, okay, we know that that would is a biomaterial, it was once alive. But what we do with wood is we do take it out of the forest and we store that carbon for a long
period of time. And what we're trying to ask is Will perhaps there could be organisms that are that are kept alive that make materials for us that are put into buildings and that could serve some some useful functions while while in while in use Okay, that makes sense. I'm very curious to hear more about this biophilia angle, something that I've noticed that's related in Seattle that the lot sizes are not always super big.
So people have to maximize spaces but the way that they do, this feels very much out of sync with the neighborhood and the rest of the houses on it, you'll often see houses that are. I've seen some that are like Cape Cod, that they've added an extra Two or a giant modern Farmhouse. That is a story or two grander than much of these. Like very old Tudor style homes or craftsman that are supposed to blend in and blend it in the same way. Like I grew up very close to Taliesin West in Arizona.
I remember going and seeing Frank Lloyd Wright's home in school, they're being really impressed with the Prairie School aesthetic of trying to not dominate the environment that you're in. But the sort of blend in almost Most and biophilia is maybe another way of going towards having a well-integrated living space. Am I halfway on to something? Here you are.
I mean, you're toying with Concepts, you're kind of talking about disappearing buildings and how buildings can kind of disappear into into the natural environment. That's exactly what, what what biophilia tries to do and certainly what I believe should be really the Primary goal of modern architecture is, but again, that's that's my perspective. And my opinion certainly there are others Yeah, is there anyone who just defends just like high
modernism or brutalism? And that's just, what they'll of concrete and like those guys are out there. They have to be right. Well, you know, I think that's my evil twin because I also share a huge passion for concrete. I think it's a exceptional material. It has so many benefits, you know, no other material is is moldable formable as durable. But you know or you know no other material is used more in
the world than concrete. So concrete as we know it is the second most consumed material on Earth after water, it is shaped Humanity as we know it. But really, what there are consequences to its ubiquity so concrete as many of your listeners, may know concrete is a huge carbon emitter up to 8% of our CO2, emissions can be attributed to cement and concrete manufacture use and Disposal. So it's a, it's a pretty gnarly Thorn for the construction
industry. But, you know, I have this Love/Hate relationship with concrete because it is such a, such a wonderful material. Are there ways to improve concrete? What we've done some episodes on on, actually how to make it less admitting than conventional ways
of producing it? It. But as are also ways to make it aesthetically closer to this biophilic Vision that we're having and other types of materials in the built environment is anything happening like that or is that still very far away? Yeah, well they're these really great examples of these undulating forms and hyperbolic shapes.
There's some Architects few decades ago that were playing around with this in Mexico. And in some parts of Spain, Santiago calatrava structures, certain certainly speak to a more organic form. The problem with those forms though is that it's actually quite expensive to get concrete in those types of shapes and in those shapes in that, Eyes. That's why the promise of 3D printing is.
So 3D printing is so appealing for folks who know and love concrete because you can, you can make those those forms and shapes Much More Much More economically. Right now. The development of the 3D printing technology with concrete, though, is such that, we're not yet able to realize all of those benefits quite yet. I think we're kind of in the in, in the, in the trough of
disillusionment. Disappointment right now with 3D printing, but I expect that in the next 10 years, they'll be a few breakthrough technologies that will enable us to build biophilic forms, and economically out of concrete. Every so often I'll see amazing prototypes or people who printed a house. And I imagine this sort of like, somewhat egalitarians open source. A future where you're downloading CAD designs, and then printing your house based on modular units that you can
attach together. And also the possibilities of basically starting from scratch to a re using that material and redoing your house in a very simple way, this is definitely very science fiction is that a possibility within my lifetime that I could just be redoing my house and redoing it based on 3D printing. I I would say yes. Let's go out of concrete but possibly more more. So out of different materials, like Earth-like rammed Earth
Earthen structures. That would possibly be a little bit easier to recycle and reuse the problem right now, with with 3D printing of concrete, is that you need first off, not very many. People are 3D printing with actual concrete. Their printing with cement paste which is a lot of cement. Aunt and some water and and you probably know from previous podcasts that cement is the culprit in terms of carbon emissions. So you know per per volume 3D printing 3D.
Printed concrete is certainly more environmentally unfriendly than say, just a regular volume of concrete. But you know, the if you kind of take a look at rammed Earth Construction, And how its constructed. It's almost as if it's 3D printed by hand already. You know, you have these forms in which Earth is placed in between the forums and it stamped and slowly layer by layer the the rammed Earth structure, you know, Rises rises
from the ground. It's a lot like slip Form Construction for high-rise buildings and concrete, but but it's really made out of Earth. So those those structures. I believe are a little bit more recyclable reusable. And so I think you're onto something with thinking about the possibilities of drawing up you know, in CAD or some 3D modeling software what you want your next house to be.
So instead of just remodeling the furniture, you're remodeling the entire structure and 3D printing with Mormon with materials that are that are recyclable. And reusable, like licker, Yeah, I love that idea. Okay, well, rammed Earth sounds. So there's this somewhat of a spectrum with past orientation, and maybe future orientation, and some of these actually living almost bacterial buildings. That's not great.
Good branding, don't use that. But okay, not not bacterial buildings, but eventually you have brand Earth which sounds low Tech and old school. And then also, I sit at a place in Japan while I think this came up on. Kate Simon in or Andrew Hines is episode but it Was a form of adobe. Basically, that had was a straw and mud construction, something like that, and very cool and
low-tech. But also, apparently, the heating and cooling properties of it worked very well that we don't know that we've created something out of our heads that has worked better than that in some cases. So those are all part of this biophilic kind of space. That is experiencing a Resurgence and you're on this cutting edge, trying to say, actually there's a lot more we can do. Does that kind? Of right? Absolutely.
You know, I really do think that The building industry will be returning to some what we would consider primitive forms of construction, like, Adobe and utilizing more agricultural products, agricultural. Wastes like straw and hemp fiber and other types of biomass waste. That would normally just compost out in the field, or incinerated, for some biomass energy. I really do see us Turning to those because we can get into talking about the carbon footprint.
But what we would, what the challenges is making those low-tech materials modern and high-tech. And and I think that that's that's a that is something kind of a grand opportunity in a grand challenge for material, scientists like me and in like others, who are again, trying to to find new and creative ways of lowering the car. Footprint of the built environment and transitioning it from a carbon the industry, the construction industry from a carbon emitter into a carbon sink.
My work at the University and at y will say, you know, folks who are who are in the industry today, you know, the, the katara's of the world who have sought have, you know, we seen much promise in Mass Timber and utilizing more bio fiber in construction. So it is already becoming a Ality what my academic research does. On the other hand is try to get people to see beyond the Primitive materials so that we land somewhere in the middle,
right? You know, I think that we have a lot of provocative examples of using photosynthetic bacteria and algae as starting precursors to make materials that really grow the materials for us and while those Solutions I think are You know, decades away, I'm hoping to nudge the industry in the direction of using other biomass. That's perhaps nonliving anymore and infusing that waste, using that waste product as a starting precursor for materials and
construction today. And even tomorrow, how do you take quote-unquote primitive building. Building materials and modernize them. But like, how would you modernize a do bi magic people must be working on stuff like this. Yeah, they are. But you know what's really lacking right now in the, in the field, our engineering codes and
standards really good? Technical data predictable, productized materials that have repeatable, consistent properties and so it is a, it is a gnarly Wicked problem, that that spans Material Science, Structural Engineering codes and standards Policies, you know, law making all of that really, to get a new, a new material into practice in the
construction industry. I mean, it takes an army and it takes multiple, you know, it's kind of a Swiss army knife really, you know, multiple tools to to unlock the potential.
But I really do think what we're seeing right now in the carbon space, you know, the Bay Area. Ria low-carbon concrete code, the city of Portland just adopted a low-carbon concrete procurement policy, the by Clean bills in California and Washington, I really do think that the policy levers are being pulled and it's really the right time for Material Science, and Engineering, and codes to all come together to see this massive infusion of new high tech low. Impact materials in construction.
Interesting, how I wouldn't expect it to go that direction but that makes sense. And I also Imagine That insurers. Probably play a pretty big role in this too. Certainly, you know, I had a few conversations with some folks in the the insurance space and you know we we certainly do need examples, you know, we do need prototypes, we need projects that you do not necessarily take take on the risk but you know D risk the technology. You know we we need we need folks to help.
Help the risk a lot of the Technologies because you're absolutely right, you know, the insurance folks or something the insurance space is something that is is watching us as well and that will ultimately need to be convinced otherwise it'll be a no-go from a client perspective with using some of
these new materials. Okay I keep getting distracted because this entire topic is fascinating but we should really talk about this original article Maybe I'd just lay it out and I'll swear, I'll try not to interrupt and take us down any rabbit hole for now. The article that I wrote for the conversation really compared buildings to to human bodies, right? So you have the structure, which is the skeleton, you have a skin that regulates temperature and humidity and buildings generate waste.
And they're wired, you know, just like just like human bodies are. But unlike human bodies buildings, don't grow, they don't regenerate, they don't
self heal. And you know, for for someone who really wants to blur the boundaries between the built environment and the natural world this kind of introduces a lot of what if what if questions so what if the walls and floors and the roofs of buildings were alive and actually grown on site and and perhaps you know what if we were able to keep those materials alive so that they can interact. Us. They can interact with the environment. They can help us regulate
temperature humidity. They can signal to us when perhaps, there's a virus or a something toxic in the air. And, you know, I really do think with, with some of the foundational research going on at universities, my in my lab included, you know, we're a lot closer than one. Might think, what's particularly exciting is that If there are, there are organisms that make materials.
So if you kind of think about certainly there are plants that make cellulose cellulosic materials, trees and hemp and bamboo you know certainly that that is true for plants and we're very accustomed to using those materials in construction. But there are also other microorganisms like bacteria and Enjoy who make that make materials that we could potentially use in construction as well.
The best example I can give is cyanobacteria Marine sign of bacteria, that make these wonderful Limestone. Have these massive Limestone deposits that called stromatolites that are kind of grown, you know, kind of grown out of just precipitated minerals, just tiny little mineral. By mineral by these Marine cyanobacteria, which are photosynthetic and it grows this massive rigid structure which is not unlike a concrete structure.
And the beautiful thing about about bacteria is that with the onset of synthetic biology and the tool kits that have evolved from that field, we are now able to decode the DNA of those organisms understand which genes are involved in making In the materials, how they make the materials, we can manipulate the genes to make an architect different shaped materials of
different sizes. You know, this is some of the work that has been going on in my lab in collaboration with a bunch of talented, researchers at the University of Colorado. We've shown that we've been able to basically encode the blueprint of a mineral. All right, into the DNA of bacteria and while that's on a very, very small scale.
If you extrapolate that to to the macroscopic scale, getting to using, you know, getting to this concept of using bacteria, to make other different types of materials for buildings, having them retain, some living functionality in buildings. You know, we're really not We're really not that far off, there's so many angles that's wild and then I noticed I am. I bacteria those exhale oxygen, right?
So you would probably have a nice working and living space, that's oxygen-rich, it's really important for for me and, and my, my research team. To use photosynthetic organisms. And and so cyanobacteria are on the top of our list of organisms that we think haven't been fully exploited in the carbon capture carbon storage space as much as they could be.
Certainly you know there are these large scale cultivation ponds of algae which are just you know, basically cyanobacterial, cousins microalgae and and other types of algae that Are certainly grown for biofuel production and even some other food products, Cosmetics, etcetera Pharmaceuticals. But you know, we're really the first group to be asking questions, like how can large scale? Cultivation of algae produced
building materials. How can we leverage photosynthetic organisms that are so fast in growing and fixing carbon dioxide right into their biomass? How can we use? That carbon negative process to produce a material that is suitable for use for use in construction. So that's why, you know, photosynthesis in general, especially rapid rapidly grown materials, leveraging, photosynthesis is really, really key to the carbon capture and storage solution space in the
construction industry. And, you know, people don't normally We go beyond thinking about trees growing in a forest, you know, trees are really slow growing. I'm I'm a firm believer that we cannot rely solely on Woody biomass grown in the forest. We have to turn to rapidly grown photosynthetic organisms and plants like algae like cyanobacteria like hemp straw grasses.
And if we allow that biomass to grow fix the Monoxide and if we can encapsulate it, keep it encapsulated for long periods of time. Well, I really do think that that's the primary strategy by which, we can turn the built environment into a carbon sink. Yeah, I love this.
It's so intriguing. So there's a vision of Housing and buildings that is in the near future which is sort of like everyone has a nest in a ring and everything can be controlled by your Your smartphone and your house is interactive and digital capacity, but then you've taken this about 10 steps further, you're talking about programming new types of microscopic life, that builds and retains its own integrity, and I have been designed for specific functions
such that everything has been. I don't know, you've altered the shape of of life in a very controlled way for an entire building is that that is that what you're trying to do is that the goal Yeah, I think you know I think people people think of buildings of the future is being super electrified and you know having these interactive wallpapers that that sense your that sense that you're in the room and it's kind of like a, you know, big touchscreen but you know, yeah.
I actually think that those could be bacterial cells that are that are transmitting electrons to. And from each other, there are bacterial communities that do this that are electrically conductive and And certainly their their Myriad of organisms that that light up, you know, upon receiving some sort of stimulus. Whether that be pH or light or humidity or carbon dioxide
they'll change colors. Like and for example like it, you know like in that you see going on hikes in the Pacific Northwest, some species of lichen will change color if they're elevated levels of Of CO2 or other other toxic chemicals and in the air. And, and so, you know, it's just a matter of engineering those systems. Those biological systems to be to exhibit those functionalities in a very controlled, a very controlled way.
The other thing I'll mention is that, you know, the DNA of organisms, you folks are kind of looking in at DNA as a way of permanent storage instead of data centers. He's, you know, we kind of think we need to keep building silicon chips over and over and over again, but we could actually grow some organisms that that store a lot more information,
right in our DNA strand. And those sequences, you know, would be that that decoding mechanism, you know, to pull to pull your old pictures out from out, from college and to look at them. So there's there's there's some really creative folks thinking about this. And yes, again, it's a little bit science, fiction, e, but but I see I see the clear the clear links in the chain, so the Ivory
Tower is it, is it that high? Yeah, I have two comments, one of which is kind of silly which is reminds me there's a dystopic version of this. That's basically akakura when I have you seen that old Japanese film. I have it but I've had a few colleagues. Okay. So I'm not alone in thinking that basically. Yeah, an organism that Absorbs everything and just grows and grows and grows out of control, but that's that's the silly one. And then I have a facil one,
which I will maintain. There's a distinction between these two words that have used but like a cliche, 30. Something that I am. I've been bringing a lot of Kombucha lately. My my kombucha bills were just too high and so the scoby is like the, the fungal matter that grows on the top of a batch you reuse, those They only last I think I've lived between 5 and 10 batches how do you make it? So that your walls don't die have to be replaced.
Or how do you, how do you have a system that is continuous and doesn't require intervention or do do all these systems? Do you just have contractors in the future? Who are biochemist, who come by? Yeah, I think the sky's the limit with it with the imagination, you know what's interesting? You bring up the point that eventually, you know, Your kombucha starter eventually
dies. I usually get the question of well what happens when you know my house becomes a skyscraper you know that it just keeps growing and growing and growing and becomes you know kind of The Blob and takes over the world and and I go back to the exactly your last point the fundamental biochemistry. If we, if we understand the, the limits of growth and the conditions of growth of certain Microorganisms that we can control it.
So for example, you know, we put food in the refrigerator, we put yogurt in the refrigerator, it's in a lot, it's a living thing. But we put it in the fridge because we want to keep the bacterial metabolisms at Bay so that trigger of temperature, keeping it cold, doesn't allow the bacteria to keep growing and even producing gas as a production and that's produced is by breaking down the lactose in the milk. So The same is true for the materials we work on in the lab.
We understand the right levels of humidity and temperature and moisture that would trigger bacterial growth. And on the other end of the spectrum Spectrum trigger its dormancy or hibernation and you know in the in when we think about future applications, there could be microfluidics and microenvironments. That trigger very localized activities of different bacteria in much the same way that we
would wire a television. You have little to no LED light bulbs, that must be wired every, we're providing just the right nutrients and just the right conditions for the bacteria to be switched on, or off, depending on on what we would like them to do fascinating. So I'm going to continue in the similar cliche. Jane where I've also been making sauerkraut and kimchi, like I really, I really wish. I could claim I started doing it before covid, but like everyone
else. I got really into it, but a lot of this is supposed to be anaerobic and not exposed to oxygen. So how do you there must be different types of organisms that are? Because I think when it's, when it is aerobic, there's a risk of bad mold becoming present, but that isn't really a risk with the types of microorganisms you're working, with know, No. Certainly, there always is, there's always some contamination issues that we have to think about.
You know, I equate the materials that we work on to a lot like you know to bring more food into the picture. I need a snack I think it's about snack time it's a lot like a sourdough starter culture. If you can think of it that way where you know our material starter cultures are such that we grew up a dense culture of bacteria. We enabled those bacteria to glue, our sand particles together, by the minerals, and the polymers that they secrete.
But then we can control, we can stop the growth of those bacteria. What we showed in a paper, a couple months ago is that if we make up what we call a parent generation, it's like your sourdough starter culture. We can actually split a parent generation brick. We can actually That brick into 2 and using the same starter culture that's already existing. In the brick, those two halves will grow into two full bricks and we completed that process to
subsequent times. So we made eight full bricks out of one parent starter culture. For example it's just like how sourdough keeps spawning new generations at an exponential scale. If you share it with your friends you know, exponential numbers. Of children but you know, to your point, it's really important for us since we are working with with aerobic bacteria that we again control the conditions during
manufacturing and storage. We impart some antimicrobial abilities to the to the materials. So that no other organisms can can cross contaminate. So it all goes back to that that microbiology and biochemistry and understanding. Really the rules of the, of the game, John? Okay? That makes sense. Well, since I have you here, could I ask you some questions about architecture and Architectural trends? Yeah, absolutely. So how long do you think is this sort of like having you know,
how to describe it? It's like obsession with open space and minimalism going to last, I sort of, I'm craving like a return to the Arts and Crafts kind of kind of moment. Like where do you think what's happening next like, when are we gonna get over this moment that we're in? Now what do you think we're going to go? You know, I this this exact question crossed my mind yesterday when I was walking, when I was walking my dog because we, we have a house in Boulder and boulders.
Actually, you know, a relatively load low dense low-density community. And I was thinking about Urban centers and how over the last two to three decades, we have been fighting for densification, densification densification, and in reality. The reality we're in now that
poses a lot of threats. And so I do think right now they're there is some, there's a Confluence of different ideas of wanting to make sure our cities are dense, wanting to give access to kind of, you know, open space and parks. And, and even again blurring these boundaries between between nature and and what is What is healing, but I think a lot of this is going to be called into question. I think I would have had a different answer for you.
Six months ago, then what I do today because I think we're going to be taking a more critical look at at office space and and densification. And, and you know what that, what that really means for cities of the future? Yeah, one thing I've noticed too, is Seattle. Okay. I live in Ballard. That's Inori's offices and Ballard is a Scandinavian historically, Scandinavian neighborhood, fishing neighborhood and you'll see apartment buildings that have names that are clearly a Norwegian.
But the they're not made in a Pacific Northwest vernacular, they could be literally any apartment building from any big city in the entire world. And so I know people want to get back to using local materials. So you mentioned Katara and cross laminated Timber and Using products that are closer to home. Seattle. I would like to see a lot more wood buildings. I would like to see us get away from one-size-fits-all.
We all have the same house independent of which continent we live on. There are benefits to standardization but I think it's a bit soul-killing to There's certainly there's a concept that I try to get across in virtually every conversation. I have related to building materials and kind of the vernacular and that's really embracing the surrounding rural communities as the localized
breadbasket. If you will for fibrous materials that are low impact low carbon that that that need to To be embraced by every every municipality. So, you know, Seattle, for example. Yes. What is very much in the DNA of of the region? But there are also again, you know, some farming communities and agricultural spaces that have that have up for offer some some biomass that could be turned into high performance building materials.
And so I think you know, I do think It's interesting because folks have traveled the world but extensively they've come into contact with different styles and different forms of architecture, but when I really do think about cities of the future, I really do think of them as as Regional a regional Nexus, that that is much more of the place. And I think we're seeing that a little bit, a little bit.
Now, with with covid is I haven't, I haven't even Thought about live leaving the Front Range of Colorado. And I'm really looking to this region. As really the extent of my of my of my reach in terms of resources. And I think that that's just going to occur on a slightly larger scale. When City start to think about supply chain sustainability of those Supply chains and materials for construction and Architectural gems of the future.
Will not be excluded from that. Well I hope you are right. At least it would make for a more interesting dog-walking experiences that you've chosen to live your life and the profession that you selected for yourself. Clearly you think architecture and creating spaces is a key part of our experience that is interacted with. So regularly to be worth a lifetime of Labor. Why do you think that is? I think a lot of people take architecture for granted and maybe don't notice it as much as
they should. What do you think about that? How could they learn more or dive into this in Greater detail both as someone who may at some point like to own a home but also as someone who wants to nerd out on this science, like we're talking about, follow me on Twitter, I'm just kidding, I will link to your Twitter, you don't do not worry. My social media presence is a little Bleak, but so, and let's
see. So your question is, how can people learn, learn a little bit more about About this space is that it, it was your there's a big garbled. Question your right to double-check. But yeah, I guess, what's a good place for someone who wanted to? I mean, part of it is I I named dropped a whole taxonomy of different American housing Styles, and we talked a lot
about that. Where is a good place to start wrapping your head around, how people think about spaces and then I guess also, where would you direct them for some of these Frontiers that you're working on and By the way, we barely covered any of the stuff that you do. So let's just have you back on again soon.
So, over the last five to ten years, I really do think the construction industry has recognized at least in North America. A critical need to understand and and share resources around low, carbon low, carbon construction, and what I really do is that Kate's immonen and her founding of the carbon leadership Forum has really served as the flagship Organization for professionals to see examples and to get information, see examples of
successes and even some some challenges and even failures in the in the in the building industry and really to work together toward a low carbon and carbon negative future in In in construction. So I would I would you know urge folks to First follow follow my work. So you know, my work has been featured in The New York Times.
I'm on NPR and we do have a website where we do publish a lot of our work, but certainly key into the carbon leadership Forum. If you're interested in learning more about sustainable architecture, especially as it as it pertains to low carbon. Low carbon construction. Great. Well, thank you so much for being here Will Yeah, thank you for having me. It's been, it's not great. It's a lot of fun. Well, thank you so much for listening. If you like the show, please share it with a friend.
Give us a great rating and review on Apple podcasts. ITunes. Stitcher, thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed and have a lovely day.