You're listening to the reversing climate change, podcast by the team at Nori. The carbon removal Marketplace. This is a show about the innovators and entrepreneurs developing solutions to climate change. Hello and welcome to the reversing climate change podcast. My name is Alex on that, I get her and I'm here in Seattle with lovely co-host, Ross, Kenyan. Keep getting those lovely. Stacking up, feeling extra confident. Now. Take it back today. You were not so lovely.
Ouch, I might have to edit that so it doesn't interfere with my public perception as love. Yeah, it's scary just joshing around as always. Well, we have an old friend of mine who coincidentally moved to Seattle a bit before I did, we've been hanging out and talking. We have with us here today. Jeffrey, Howard, editor, and founder of Gratis, which is an online. Publication that takes a pragmatic, approach to ideas, and focuses on human flourishing.
We're very happy to have you here with us, Jeffrey. It's a pleasure. Welcome. We should also say at the start that for the first time, I think we're going to call a season break and break. I think we're going to take a little break after this episode. I don't know exactly how long it'll be, but we have some episodes that were planning. We've been doing this basically non-stop for close to two years now and I think it's time to regroup a bit strategize. Absolutely.
So we hope that you are enjoying your holidays, some time with family, resting recovering, getting some Moments of human flourishing in a community. Nice, I know that I will be taking a break. I will be off the grid for like three weeks. You have. Well earned it going to try to learn how to meditate. That'll be fun. Hmm. It's a, it's a good thing to do. I'm sure that will come up in the show here too. Well, we decided to do this show because well, where do I even start with this one?
Wendell Berry has come up so many times that it's become a running joke. In fact, we had a fan, create a bingo card. For Nori and Wendell Berry himself is one of the Bingo squares. I noticed that. Yeah, it's no longer talking about doing the show with Jeffrey. He's like, you gotta talk about, Wendell Berry line. I was like, yeah, and Jeffrey and correct me if I'm wrong. So you just read this book by dr.
Patrick Dineen called why liberalism failed and this is a book, very much in the same school of thought, as Wendell Berry dr. Janine, is a communitarian? I think he calls himself a Catholic, communitarian he But it definitely is a Catholic who speaks in communitarian circles.
So I think that's a dress, I pulled that from Wikipedia which as you know, is 100% accurate at all times, but I could see that I could see that fitting and we wanted to do an episode that focus on the political philosophy of communitarianism, because is strange, it doesn't break neatly along the political lines that you might expect. Sometimes you'll be reading, Wendell Berry and be like, wow, this is, this is to the left of Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren.
And sometimes you're like, this is extremely Conservative and I have a hard time mapping this given my political experience as an American in 2019 which for no other reason. I think it makes it interesting to read because it isn't exactly what you would expect all the time. Like I know when I read a conservative, or libertarian or Progressive or Marxist, I know what I'm getting communitarian still have that like, little bit like a surprise in there for me
like a little spice. So we decided to have Jeffrey on to talk about what exactly communitarianism is. Why should we care should be? What does it have to say? Because why don't I put words in your mouth? Won't you just want to just start off in the broadest terms possible here? What is it communitarian? Yeah, so let me offer. I want everyone to Envision a
square rather a diamond. So for a comfortable with the left-right Paradigm, politically speaking, the northern point, you could see communitarianism which serves as a contrast sometimes with individualism or even in some ways with libertarianism and on the left, usually have a big focus on equality and there tends to be a greater comfort with government or state intervention in the market, discomfort, with State intervention in quote, unquote, the bedroom or in people's
private lives, the converse of that, on the right, you know, more comfortably or traditionally more laissez-faire Market approach, but being more comfortable with State, intervention into people's private lives, whereas South of the Border, I guess you could say is More individualism or it's really about really removing any means of intervening and people's private lives that people are free to do
whatever they want. Essentially as long as they're not harming other people, there's all sorts of squabbles within that contain Chris corner of the political spectrum and then you have communitarians, which is really focused on ultimately Solutions, come from communities, that ultimate meaning comes from community that things need to be determined through communities and by Community, that's on the
local level. As contrasted with say, maybe a national or a global Community. It's really about the particulars versus the universal. And as we'll talk about the contrast between liberalism, which focuses on a more Universal ethos or more Cosmopolitan view. Communitarianism, might contrast with that with a more focus on a local, or a particular context.
All right, so if I read this back to you, you have people that are broadly left-of-center now, who are progressive, they're pretty comfortable with state. Ian changing various things about the economy, whatever. And you have people that are right of Center who tend to be suspicious of the state messing with the market and that sort of thing. But, communitarians seemingly are suspicious both of like, the federal government introducing, a new suite of programs ostensibly to help people.
They think that's maybe too big and too distant a solution, but they're also very suspicious of the market ordering Society, according to its dictates to, is that, yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. You can depending on which type Communitarians. You're speaking with, the may also emphasize are being comfortable with State
intervention. The sense of more local state interventions or economic solutions that are more locally driven but it's, you know, they're going to be critical of extreme laissez-faire approaches or extreme Federal level mandates. So how do you know that your communitarian? It's fluid. Its individual. I you know, I don't know. I'm sure there are quizzes online honestly. Materialism is probably so Niche that there probably aren't any BuzzFeed quizzes, whether you're a communitarian or not.
Oh man, but I, you know, I think a few Hallmarks you can look for is, you know, when you're considering ethical and moral questions, do you see it through the lens of is this going to be good for my community or our community? There's a slogan within sort of communitarianism is I don't become a me without a we or something along those lines, right? Like you cannot Cysts without being part of a whole. And you can't just think of what is only good for me or what I want to do.
You're always thinking the context of, how does this impact other people? And ultimately as human beings were relational creatures. Yeah, I was hoping I'd have a chance to bring this up. Maybe you'll like this Alessandra but there's a very famous Margaret Thatcher quote when she was prime minister of Britain and she said that there's no such thing as society and that this is just an idea. Leah. I was like, that's true. The idea of society isn't something that I could point
out. It sort of in the idea realm, but I remember people coming back and being like the individuals and abstraction like great. So now, what do I do? It's useful, it's easier to think in terms of individuals acting, or it's sort of like, is this going to take us down a road? That's too weird. Well, I have a wrote that I'm safe. I'm gonna walk you back. Just to what you were. Just describing Jeff. Jeff. Oh, Jeffrey a lot of it resonated with me in terms of okay you're going to see
something. And you ask yourself, this is good for my community and less so about like is it good for me as an individual? I very very much identified with that because I have a loss of identity without my whole my community. Never here's this, here's a sticker it's a little bit different from what you were describing with regards to locality. So to describe my situation, I've lived. In all four corners of the Uso Miami New York LA.
And now, Seattle spent three months in Denver, there are people that I have in different places that are my community. I talked to them fairly regularly, very close to my family and they're my community. And without the ability to talk to them to see them to just continue that connection, I would have a loss of identity but they're not local. So can you be a communitarian without locality That's a great
point. I think you can be there's definitely prefer communitarians and especially for Patrick Dineen in this book, Wendell Berry there is a publication called front porch Republic, which they talk about Place limits and community and markets in a very specific way, but like, Place does matter. But communitarians may talk about three different types of community. You have a community of place which is what we've talked about is your geography-based, right? Your neighborhood or your anchor
to you. Have communities of memory, which is a little bit more broad, sort of like we as a community of Americans, right? We have this memory of the American founding and certain mythologies that we have what that identity in that Community. Is it's the most abstract of community that communitarians will talk about third is communities of psychology where it's essentially, the
face-to-face interaction. The way we get fed by one another emotionally, and those more human elements that we I felt like those really meaningful moments of community. As I would say, we should definitely discuss that more, but maybe we should do it through the lens of the book here. So by liberalism failed, why did it fail? What were the Alternatives?
What even is liberalism's? I don't even know that people can recognize you since we all swim in it and even if you're if you're listening right now, you're Republican or Democrat. You're both still liberals in the broadest sense of the term, you probably have more in common than you might think what is liberalism? Yeah. So to your first A point Dineen would say liberalism failed because it succeeded which is sort of a clever plan words.
But what he's saying there is baked into liberalism are a few tenants that ultimately are going to or have or are leading to its demise and so liberalism, the way he defines it in the most broader terms again it's not liberal Progressive or conservative. It's a broad philosophical tradition that generally starts back with John Locke. Who is considered an Englishmen? Who is considered the founding father of liberalism, you have Liberals like Hobbs and his employer. Sir, Francis Bacon.
And the idea is that there is a state of nature and this is arguably kind of a fiction. Maybe a thought experiment that just state of nature that we were all our most free state of being that we are non-relational. We are not beholden to sort of arbitrary. Things of birth, such as your heritage, the religion of your parents, the boundaries. You're born into all these things that liberals consider arbitrary and limiting, and then
in the state of nature. ER, as the most free being, you are free of all those things and you have certain rights as an individual, which the most liberal Maxim is sort of. You're free to do as you want. As long as you're not harming others, that's John, Stuart Mill's harm principle and that's at the heart of liberalism as well.
And so this idea is that we exist as these non-relational beings and in order to maintain that to avoid the sort of short nasty brutish life, we enter the social contract in which we form government, It's that, are there to secure those basic individual rights. Lot of these are contained in, you know, the Declaration of Independence, which was very lucky. And and ultimately lat the constitution for the United States and many other countries and at the heart of it really is.
Individualism Denine also talks about conquest of nature. So this really intersect with what we want to talk about with the reversing climate change podcast is this philosophy that nature is something to be conquered and and it's something to be controlled and we're reaping the fruits of that in the ecological devastations is The Logical conclusion. So those are just a few things have heard of it. You have there's a lot there. I almost forgot.
We're on the reversing climate change pocket. When I get there. I promise ya. Try to take this dirty jokes. Thank you Jeffrey. I love the anthropology of this because it's clearly just a thought experiment. And if you don't have language, if you don't have touch you Can't even develop your mind, you know, but that attachment disorder yard you, you will not do well in a group setting ever basically.
Unless you combat that in order to even make sense of the universe, you need language to help you develop Concepts to partition the. So it's not just undifferentiated Mass, you only get that by being born into relations and you don't just develop that on your own but sort of the contract Aryan view which is useful because it's about consent, right about. How can people choose to consent to political order? Which is Otherwise just
banditry. Basically, like States, just saying like I rule you, you must consent and they're like, no there's got to be there's got to be some consent in here, right? And so they're trying to like, work their way into. How could someone consent to Define monarchy?
This is where like as I understand Hobbs is trying to work towards this, whereas like on social contract theory and contract arianism is very much like a world, like The Walking Dead where you have the the various bands of people encounter each other in a state of nature where there's no overarching law. It's like, do we trust each other do we agree to stuff or not? And then Course, they'll just kill each other. So the point is to, like, go ahead.
One more beat each other with bats or beat each other. We hate spoilers spoilers. Hey, that was ridiculous. That never happened. Yeah, so that's like that's part of that, that tradition I guess you literally just said, a bunch of words like you're like banditry, like what was that contract is own contract. Aryan is consult arianism think what are these words wrong? It's, it's basically just, yeah,
like, social contract theory. So like, like people how do they agree and can How do you consent to a government ruling you because right now, like, you don't you? Yeah, you've never given your consent to be governed.
But clearly you like, like, does implicit consent work in this case or not people been fighting this question very long time, I like David Humes of the original contract where he's like implicit consent is like carrying a sleeping man onto a boat and saying, if you don't like it you can jump off. So not so good. And also explicit consent is impossible and we would never all agree to the same rules. So, it's like so does consent matter as a political principle
at all. Clearly, we want to present, you don't want the idea of like being governed without your consent, but then how do you make it work? So, like social contouring thinking is trying to square the circle to this day. I still don't know how it works. I see it on a spectrum and I also don't see quite how it works. Consents very important, it doesn't work anywhere, that's like maybe maybe the see stats people who want to like, that's what I was going to say.
Like if you could truly opt-in like that's explicit consent but so like unitarians might Come back and say, consent is not nearly as important as you think. It is being born into these relations. You didn't choose your family, but that's on arbitrary. That doesn't mean you can just throw them to the curb as garbage. You owe them some bonds of affection and love, or unless they're, like, horribly abusive, unless you choose not to, unless you're like, okay, this is
something. But you have to make that choice very consciously and explicitly like, okay, I want to dump them, and I now I burn this bridge and I will never walk back. That's these, are some of the downsides.
Of liberalism that Denine sees, that quoting, the French Aristocrat who came to visit, America, Alexis de tocqueville in 1829 and 1830 had couple volumes Democracy in America, in which talks about at the heart of liberalism, is this idea of freeing ourselves from the chains that bound the aristocrats all the way down to the peasants. But what has happened? From Denise perspective.
Is that these other chains, that bind us family, the community Faith communities, Is cultural ethnic communities. You name it that we inherit our inheritances, even down to Denis likes to talk about last name. So he'll give presentations on this book, and he'll talk about how Dineen means of Neen for, it's like an aristocratic name or like de tocqueville.
That's a name Smith. My last name is Deborah, which means war and I haven't wanting to change it and that's an inheritance, whether you wish to pain or not, right? Yeah. He talks about how in trying to liberate the individual from these aristocratic oppression. We've liberated individual from all other demands that we could place upon one another that we are so focused on trying to make the individual completely free, that we are.
So non-relational that we are uncomfortable or not allowed to make demands upon one. Another and communities are based on us being able to make demands on one another where it's like, hey I'm sick and unwell someone in my community. I can make a demand of them that have in an unspoken demand. Perhaps we're like it demand of them to come and take care of me because that This the other direction and we don't really have these strong bonds for a lot of us tocqueville.
And we're Robert Nesbitt, his book The Quest for Community came up in this book, which is like an old favorite of mine because he's one of the conservative thinkers. I think is super interesting and he has a great section in that book where he talks about how prior to the Industrial Revolution literature. Tended to be about feeling over to find everyone. In my small town knows. All of my business. There I have no room to be
myself. I'm sure if you've ever been to like a small town community or like your With your family and you're just like everyone is constantly gossiping and knows everything about me and I hate it literature tend to be about being over hashtag holiday season. They're going to be listening to this like on their walk away
from the Christmas table. Yeah. So you probably know listeners, especially, you have to live with that and that's just your life constantly, but then Nisbet comes back and says, well after the Industrial Revolution literature tend to be about alienation and about not feeling connected and things like some like, Franz Kafka. Thought you were just sort of like an anonymous person in the city and you don't have any connections.
So basically we're just doomed to be unhappy is the point of that whole Spiel. Well, yeah, yeah, that's, that's the real worry. Here is as we've liberated ourselves so much and I speak of this from a very liberal perspective. There's this concern as where's my place. Like we have these very thin
community. So, we, I think we all most of us have communities that we talked about whether that's, you know, the people I Go Boulder in rock climbing with the People who maybe share some certain political or philosophical views, maybe my family, or faith in your whatever communities we have some that are thin and some are thick. And by that is meaning, really these stronger bonds that
they're more difficult to exit. So one of the celebrations, or achievements of liberalism is that it's made exiting quote-unquote, arbitrary, relations or arbitrary. Inheritance has that much easier. Go. Absolutely. So in this book, will the book again is called Why liberalism failed and the beginning. He starts talking about how did this point that our relationships are now super loose? And he makes some pretty sweeping statements. I'm not going to get into that.
I mean there's a lot of yeah. Anyways. Hold yourself back and extend it out. Okay. And we're moving forward so that their looseness in relationships and he very much implies like that, this is the terrible thing. Like it has led to the demise of like social, I don't know. I wouldn't even know how to describe the capital. Yeah. But what's so interesting is like I almost see almost like a pendulum.
So if I take a ball and I like swing it this way, there are over here in an extreme super constraint, right? They implicitly or just we're bound to some social contract that they never said yes to and then. Okay. Then there's liberalism we let them go and that ball swings the other direction. So now we're so free. We're like, oh my God, I'm so far off the middle because now I have thin communities. I have no one to take care of. Me when I'm sick.
I had to bring me some soup or whatever it is. And so, I think that the feeling that I got or the idea from listening to this book was well, what relax? Like, it's just a normal thing where we can now come back to the middle, that there might be this natural order swing, where we find in the end, we'll settle on a middleware. It's like you will have Community but you have more freedom to Define what that Community looks like.
And we just might be at this particular point in time at a stage because of Technology because of global Amy's where we're just so far on the right or left or whatever on the side that you're going to swing back mattress in the middle. I was doing this whole thing with my hands, I hope so. I think I wonder how much worse. It'll get until it gets better. I think if you're if you're listening, take a catalog. Be like, do you go to church or you member of any fraternal
societies? Are you in a knitting club, or reading group, or a bowling league, or you in any of these? I had to send this to Jeffrey to in prep for this. My favorite comedy ever. Peep Show still the greatest. There's a great scene. I think I'm gonna send it to you also and I'll send it to you though, but they go on a double date and they go to this play and it's like local community theater and they're like, this is terrible last money.
We could be watching heat with Robert De Niro and Al Pacino at home. It's like yes, like there's definitely like like the competition for my attention after work. Like, I'm sure you get home. It's like, would I like to And pray or go to a Bible study right now or what? I like to, I don't know, go and play badminton with people. No I can watch literally any show in the history of the planet with no effort at all. I think it's just hard to compete.
I think we're going to see a lot more fighting on the internet in your apartment by yourself. Before we see people joining the stuff again, I hope I'm wrong. Yeah. I like John was you're saying, is maybe it is a pendulum.
I'm generally an optimist of blah things but I do see a lot of this pessimism where we are both from Market means as well as through government interventions were able to isolate and not have to invest as much in communities because we can fall back in something else and I can think of a couple of examples in which in my own life.
So I think to Ross and I met in DC during my second stint in d.c., it was actually during my first go at DC that after finishing a semester of teaching I was you know I was In some sense, under employed under housed, I was crashing where I have your I can find housing with people, as well as I didn't have enough money for food and I'm grew up inherited a very powerful, very thick faith community that I can still. Although I'm non-practicing more culturally a part of this
community. I can go in many places across the country and I can tap into people with a shared this sort of shared story shared is only the people's Temple or Yeah, it's one of those. No and but I'm in DC, I mean, this hard place and I'm no longer practicing the faith, but it's still part of my community. My family heritage and I go to local clergy, talk about my situation and being as sort of a
law of reciprocity. I've given so much to this community throughout most of my life that in speak with local clergy, they're able to provide a little bit of help with food for a couple months for me. And that's something that that is a thick community that is providing Support and help to me that I've placed a demand on them because they've been able to place a demand on me whereas on contrast if I'm not part of a really strong Community, I'm not incentivized have a strong
Community right now, because while if I fall in hard times, I can rely on this state intervention or that state intervention or maybe I can find some other. Cheaper Market means to achieve something that doesn't require me having to extend myself emotionally or socially with other people, but then that's the thin that Even a thin way of living superficial does not speak to your quarters.
Not revive you? Yes. Yes. To everything that you're saying and what comes to mind this conversation is it almost seems like the trigger is moving is leaving, right? So assuming of course, this is not the case for everybody. But assuming you are born somewhere, you're raised somewhere with a family and then you move. Like, for example, I moved from Miami to New York and I was 18 for college and then I had to start A whole new community,
they're in college. Luckily the soil is fertile and then and you heared like forced to repeat interactions with people. So you're able to build a community that but again, it's not as thick as my family home in Miami. Then I go to grad school and I'm like oh that's even harder because there's like no social there's no help from the University for like PhD students to hang out, which is like oh it's the other PhD students that were in your lab but they've been working together for 3
years. Then you have like an awkward one year of like working lab and To be friends with people and then like, just moving to me seems to be a pattern that triggered my loss of thickness and Community or connection and it takes a lot of intention and effort to rebuild that wherever you go and you have to start from scratch.
Every time you move, I still don't feel like I've done a very good job here in Seattle of, figuring it out, like a bit of a Hermit getting me out to do. Basically, anything, is still still an Endeavor, I need a lot of talking into and It's bad. It's like think about how hard it is to make friends as an adult, you really. And they're not even to make them but to preserve those relationships because you can, you can just like stop or you can say like maybe turn down an
invitation two or three times. Maybe that's the last one. You get until you don't do it. So, like you, you really gotta try. I don't feel like, I've been trying very hard and I don't know that it's been the best thing for me. Are you from here, Jeff? No, so, I'm a little bit of my personal history. I've lived in California, Utah. So you see English a roster right? Yeah it'll yeah I mean Russ and I followed similar. Geographic changes. Just in parallel unbeknownst just bouncing around.
Wait we're like the rootless fungible. Disaffected liberal extreme. Yeah well right like it's the you don't know what you have until you lose it and you know as someone who used to have such strong community and also being at bit of a Hermit myself I've and how much I'm invested in interested in Reviving. Immunity and the loss of it. You know, it's hard you come home from a long day of work and you're just like I just want to make dinner and crash.
I've got to take my dog out for a walk and we're inundated with content consumed on every other streaming device and just like the one we left behind. It's easier. Moratorium on new content, guys. Like much content. I got through months. I'm like, no, no more like oh that used this could show. Nope. Not gonna do it. There's a new edgy. Serial drama. That's only seven seasons live anti-heroes. Morally ambiguous, I'm still finishing Game of Thrones, I'm out.
Oh my God. Okay, my friends, I've seen every episode with time, you guys are part of the problem, right there? I am finding a problem but you know what I've been doing recently? I mean you mentioned Seattle as Seattle's a tough one. Like Jesus it's hard to make friends as an adult just live in Seattle. Like the Seattle. Freeze is a real thing but at least I can find more and more people who also moved to Seattle and are struggling with the
fries. And so most of my friends are not local to Seattle. Yeah, but it takes so much time. It's what I've moved here, two years ago. So December 4th. Oh wow, December 4th, was the fifth of December and 2017. And I finally have friends were now I get, this is the level. This is the measure of success for communities. When you're going from failure. Can see, she's itching. I'm pinching myself.
Yes. Yeah. There's space is when do you transition from like, oh, we have to like, hey, do you wanna go to brunch someday? Like, let's do Sunday this time. Okay. And everything, scheduled Super thin. Then you go to thick like that Medium thickness where it's like, hey I'm going home now. Do you want to come? Hang out? Yeah, sure. I'll be over. That is success. That's a sweet spot. Yeah. We should maybe maybe get it closer to the book again to
because I think do we? I think that's a good, a good idea. All right. I think that's terrific, dr. Patrick Deane heard this. He'd be like, what the heck, guys? Like, like mention my book and barely. Then you start talking about making friends in Seattle. This is the reverse Advantage, podcast is our last one of the year. We've gotten to that, but we sure will. Okay, so, maybe let's just let's do our due diligence here and catch it up. So, Francis fukuyama and a history.
He says, like, this is a famous thing. Like, after the cold war, after the Berlin Wall came down, it was saying, like liberalism is where we'll all head over. So I like broadly, we believe in trade and private property and in markets and this is going to be the thing. It's not going to be fascism, which is another big alternative
in the 20th century. That has been thoroughly, discredited less, so now but let's hope it stays Discrediting, his cross communism was very discredited after the Soviet Union collapsed, although it still has its admirers and in certain circles but liberalism was ascendant. We all sort of thought. This is the best we can do. This is what we're going after. And then now we're all staring into it and it seems like the name thinks that we've sort of hollowed it out.
Like we spent hundreds of years building these communities, that were actually quite robust and then liberalism was so successful that it no longer required the communities that Liberalism possible just by having people grounded and contextualize and a part of things, it removed the need for
those. And now, all you have people who do their primary identity is National politics or like, identifying, with a political party and like yelling at people online and there's nothing but that so like liberalism was so successful that it might undermine itself because now people have nothing about this and it isn't very good. Yes. Is that your good job? Yes. And I would add essential to
that. What he's talking about this hollowing out our, the more Civic and social Institutions that I think Robert Putnam highlights very well in his book, bowling alone, which Denine talks about as well. It was first an article, I think came out in the 80s, later became a book where he highlights although the numbers of those who bowl back then into the past few Decades of now are still the same. The number of those who Bowl in Bowling leagues, have mostly disappeared.
And that's uses as this imagery to show where isolated were doing things not in associations. And so part of why, that's a problem is because these associations create norms and cultural expectations that temper. Some of the Extremes in our human nature and they're also part of what makes the liberalism succeed. But Denine would say, what's
this? Individualism that's baked into liberalism has slowly replaced those out that market logic and large-scale state interventions have hollowed out those intermediary spaces. Okay, and that's true. That sounds may be small town or all you guys are going to exist in large Urban environments to. But especially if you read Wendell Berry so much of it is about this you know, bucolic life out in the countryside and these small towns, you get a poor William. If you read those those novels
which are lovely. If you just want pure distilled, Nostalgia just read any of those part. William as makes me nostalgic for something I've never experienced. Its, they're beautiful. I know you like them a lot to that I do, but we're just not going back. I think this Century we're going to Increasing urbanization. This is not even something that's that disputed, as far as I know, everyone is moving to the city and they're doing it globally.
And we're not going to have these sort of like small small towns farming, Lifestyles anymore, those that are increasingly mechanized and something that you don't have to deal with unless you really really want to or you're just born into it, you don't want to leave and even still. It seems quite hard to stay there. So I read this book recently by Peter ends called how the Bible actually works. It was written about people.
Oftentimes read the Bible. As a rule book, but this is actually not a very good way to read the Bible. There are passages right back to back, even in Psalms because it's you supposed to read like holy books as a way of generating wisdom, not to, like, just get an answer and be like, oh, what is the Bible say about X? And you look it up, there it is. That's the end of it, accept it if you're in Leviticus. Exactly. Yeah. But even even sell their stuff
in there, too. That he goes into, I thought it was a really, really compelling book but so like a lot of the people who get really into Christianity and the Bible, they'll go back and say Were like reclaiming primitive, Christianity and going back to basics and just looking like, what exactly does it mean to be a Christian? I found my answer and done but he makes it a case in there that actually, like, you can never go back.
A lot of that was historically. Contextual, you're probably missing a lot of it. It's more about what can you take from that and move it forward? So, given that Wendell Berry and Patrick mean, seemingly have this aesthetic that is very much, small town, living rule America, that might be the ideal, but we're going farther and farther away from that. How do we learn from that? Knowing that we probably aren't actually going to go back to it.
Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's a major tension, I believe statistically, what's it? Like two percent of Americans are actually Farmers nowadays, that may even be high. Maybe it's 1%. I think it might be below that. Yeah. And so, you know and for the last century and a half more, we've been consolidating Farms larger scale that's where we get the big questions around, big Agriculture, and so most of us
just don't want to be farmers. Those of us who didn't grow up with it, read Wendell Berry or someone else and go. Oh yeah, I think I want to just find my little parcel of land. It just Farm it and live this idyllic life and farming is really hard work. So I don't think there's a way of going back. I like the idea of more and more people wanting to try and get back to Earth back to the soil as Wendell Berry will talk about. There's a berry, I think Institute in Kentucky, where
they actually have free. Three scholarships where people can learn to be farmers who are really wanting to revive a
little bit of this lifestyle. And I person, I'm personally not as invested or optimistic of loads of people just suddenly getting into farming, but I think it's really going back to that Community. Ethos, that isn't necessarily require everyone to be Farmers. But we have this real crisis of the rural urban divide, which I think is probably one of the biggest divides that we can consider at least in the United States, North America, where there's such big differences.
And Lifestyles values, how rural urban folks view each other or fail to talk to one another. And I think that's really big crisis is trying to cross that divide. So we've talked about the thing that is happening. What are the consequences of it? Like the why it failed? What is feeling like what are the consequences of all the loose relationships, the lack of connection between rural and urban people. But what are the consequences
was failing? Is it just the state of today, or Why are we even having this conversation? So I think a few of these things and some of them are hard to pin solely on liberalism and I'm not sure Deneen would say, all these are can be put on liberalism, but we never talk about this alienation. We look at these Rising numbers of people who deal with loneliness, especially the more elderly or more vulnerable populations.
Who are just like, oh, you're not economically, fruitful, you're not useful, you're sort of like discarded, but even though, Or not, those of us who are chronicled economically productive. We still live, pretty solitary lives, a lot of us and we deal with the depression and loneliness that comes from that, the lack of human flourishing that you know, we're facing. So you've got Steven Pinker who contrast this in his book, Enlightenment. Now, where is talking about we live?
In this most prosperous time. Most peaceful least violent time in human history and largely a lot of those statistics metrics are true but in materially speaking, there's a lot of unrest. There's a lot of Trust of one another, we don't trust our Democratic institutions. We don't know how to speak to one another politically or even emotionally. A lot of us, lack at the emotional intelligence to be able to communicate our alienation and loneliness to one another.
Some of us don't even know how to recognize it because we're so distracted, by all of our content that we consume are so distracted by you name it. And so there are these some could say they're they're sort of spiritual deficiencies, psychological emotional, you name it. And Those are coming out in ways of suicide, opiate crisis. You can connect it to a lot of these which are hard to show.
Causation English, probably show some correlation, but those I think are some of the things that he's trying to point toward is as we've been so radically focus on liberating individuals from everything we relate to. And we inherit, this is what we're seeing and maybe it is a pendulum that can swing back. Denine thinks the nature of liberalism as an ideology.
This is its success. It has been achieved and we can't trying to use liberal solutions to liberalism is trying to pour gasoline on a fire and maybe he's right. I am skeptical. I mean, I'm open to it but I think maybe there are some quote-unquote liberal solutions that we can use to like Nori, maybe, like, annoying. Maybe, I don't know. I don't know if he would really
don't know. Maybe we should just talk about what is communitarianism have to say about climate change and the environment I could see them thinking, something that was more small-scale. I Us trying to commoditize carbon removal. I feel like commoditize and communitarianism are just sort of anathema and the same
sentence to start. They could be I'm not as expert on communitarianism to know a lot of the conversations around ecological crisis climate change and those things but I think your intuition is probably right there is similar to on the criticisms further on the left of this commodification of Nature and soil and earth and air is, is a Problem and that it's not just some material thing that can be controlled.
There's people that are attached to it and part of whether you want to call it, a more of a Marxist critique or more of a communitarian ethos, is that we lose something when we are so separated from where our food comes from. Yes, you know, Wendell Berry talks about how Urban centers are colonizers of the farm lands that farm lands continue to be left behind, they continue to become poor and they deal with
all these issues. We've About, but on a more severe scale as Urban centers such as Seattle, d.c. many of these cities that I've lived in and been able to benefit from that, we are kind of these colonizers benefiting off of the earth. And we don't know where most of our food comes from. This is where we get into these ethical questions. As to the people who are doing this farming, are they under good working? Conditions, are they contributing to more sustainable
farming. Practices were mostly just looking at a price tag in a Suri store, most of us. And I think that's problematic down the road, it is in some ways, but in others to how much extra time, do you want to devote to researching every product that you buy? It's an especially, like the economy. So interconnected, it's just sort of like, everything produces everything else. I don't, I don't know if it's about researching every product that you buy.
Because no, not under that. Absolutely no. But it's more. I think what I'm hearing from you. F is being connected to it. So I don't know the tomatoes that I grew my garden versus the tomatoes that I buy me and I just love my salad so much better. It's like a whole experience. Like I'm sitting there. I'm mindful, I'm savoring it. Like, there's just it but that is life, but more.
So everything is just so easily and prepared and we pick it off a shelf and we pay for it and there were numbing ourselves out, and then we're watching Netflix, and then we're doing this. And they were all why I'm busy, and then I gotta go to this. This website and I got to do this thing for work. And then I'm going to just get back on the bus. It's almost like, well, what's the point at all? If we're not stopping for a second to think about the things and I'm experienced.
Oh yeah, I just I just spewed all that Devil's, Advocate at Jeffrey here and I'm like, thoroughly alienated person and also I could be happier how fast paced everything is. We do not have the time. I mean to look at so deeply into the supply chain as to, where everything comes from part of minimizing that is going local. I think that's part of the local movement is, you can more easily discern the sourcing of all this
food and where it's coming from. So it's not realistic to say every single product that I consume. I know every single thing about every single Source, no one knows that's impossible but it's trying to find the more tangible areas of the That we consume and trying to pinpoint, what are the things that are more? Ethically sourced things that are more green and more sustainable to things that we can connect to? Because with your point with the
tomatoes, right? When you invest something into it, you're seeing literally at the fruits of your Labor's, right? We still use that phrase. Yeah. Because it matters. Yeah, I've been trying to, we all do is a lot of intellectual labor over here, and I sort of wish that I had some outlet that was a bit more Hands-On, are used to play music back in the day. And I just Fell off of that. But occasionally I would go in the car. Start fixing things working through hands, it was really
good. I feel like transforming things in a tangible kind of way or interacting with the definitely brings more pleasure than just buying it. Although who doesn't love that sweet chemical Rush of buying something off of Amazon and just a couplet like the then last. Yeah, exactly. It's the pleasure of having accomplished a task, I set out to buy this thing. It has been done and I compare That to writing a book, not just
possible comparison. I think that the phrase that popped out in my mind that you just said, was fast paced. It's like, go, go, go go and stopping to experience the world a little more and in community. So, this last was Thanksgiving weekend last weekend, and so we had three days off. I was like, I'm just going to work through cuz I'm going to take a long break. I got to just work work, work, work work. But then, because I was scrolling Instagram, I found that there was a sauce.
The Congress which is like a salsa Festival, it's for three days. They do like all day workshops from 10 a.m. and then their social dance at 10 p.m. until like 6:00 a.m. And I did that instead and it was literally the best thing and made new connections and build the community. And then I just at the end of this three days of non-stop, like I slept four hours a night, probably I was so exhausted. So now and I'm sitting there in my couch, my weight. Why don't I ever do this?
Why? Like because I'm constantly thinking, oh, I got to do this thing. I got to do that thing. Thing. Yeah, it's it's a hard hard life, a lot of lot of stuff to do but for the environment I guess this might apply for thinking as a communitarian might that we sort of treat nature or the environment as a means to an end or or as something that's that's fungible.
Like one of the ultimate critiques of of carbon markets that we've heard so many times is this like, you know, one Mangrove is not fungible with another. So like if you just destroyed some wetlands and you bought some mangrove Restoration credits, you're like, you still destroyed the original one. You can't just you can't just create on your head and it's like the communitarian
critiquing like anything. That's placed based and we will bury super famous for this being attached to a very specific set of Hills and Dales and where he lives and it has had Generations on that land. There's something that's just not, you just can't swap it out for something else. I don't know what that's like, because I grew up moving right. You're closer because you're, you're like, serious Miami. Has ears Miami but I don't live there laughs.
Yeah, you're a traitor. A traitor to your people and I fly. Okay. Listeners guilty dirty laundry. I fly a lot to Miami but I'm keeping track of my flight. So now that we have Nori, I can negate my admission Terry's. Love you environmentalist. Hate you hard to keep track of certain please. Every Airlines love me. So I guess, what do we do with that? So like one of the great parts of this book, I love, I think this is imagery.
He contributes to Wendell Berry about, there's a sort of strip mining process, so talented. Youth in various communities, have your from like Akron or art Temecula or wherever you're from. If you're really talented academically, you will leave those places. You will get a scholarship to some school. You aren't coming back you're going to move on from whatever
big city. You go to get some fancy job and you'll come back and you'll be one of the people you'll see your townie friends and say, hey guys, how's it going? And some people go back. Some people do the onion had the most Savage take on this I've ever seen. Seen, it was like, big city comedian, who makes 30 grand a year like returns home for Thanksgiving. Sees, well-adjusted friends who have time to spend with their family? There's nothing like that.
It's just like, with less. That's good. I will say statistically, I think most Americans I saw this recently live within 40 miles of their parents on average which is kind of crazy when you think of that. So many people are so transient is right. Like there's a lot of us are living or moving to this big. Urban centers were leaving behind. That's another big concern of the brain drain where these communities that have literally been left behind. Some of them are farming communities.
Others are just small towns that people thought, well, there's nothing happening here for me. I want to go to the place where the actions happening, and I think, one way forward can be, is having more of us who we leave our communities, the ones who are there, maybe we're in a lot of opportunities, and coming
back and giving. So I think of in mythology and lots of great stories, There's the monomyth or the hero's journey, where you have this individual as an individual, and maybe in the liberal sense, who they are pursuing their self chosen Mission, and they feel called to something, and they go onto it, individually on their own, they take on challenges, they go through these, and they come out on the other side with this great gift, that they've achieved, that they didn't know
they needed, but the end of the story, it doesn't go there. It continues. They come back to their community and it's a gift for them and their community, and that's something a lot of us aren't completing. That hero's journey. We're lost. Right? So it doesn't necessarily mean. We have to all move back to our hometowns. Well, why are we lost? Is it? And it might be that were called to go home.
We've done this thing, we've accomplished the journey, the road home is calling us and we feel pulled their but there's Instagram and so God knows. If you move back home then you're a failure and you're just going the opposite direction and this is constant need to achieve and Achieve and level up level up. It's just you just tell those people be like Here. Read this. Joseph Campbell, I wasn't surprised you brought that up Chef, it was only a matter of time.
Anyone who knows me? But I would like to say, I think a solution for some of these communities have been left behind is remote work, which not every industry is able to do that. But more and more are allowing I think encouraging more remote work. Including the housing crisis that a lot of us are facing is being able to move to smaller communities, where it is more affordable, especially for Millennials most Millennials
can't afford. Holmes moved to a community where not only can you afford to live there but you can bring your skill set and knowledge and the talents you've been gifted with to bless whatever those communities are. Maybe it's your own Community or maybe it's one that you're being adopted into but you're saying, hey this is my place.
I see some needs that I can meet for other people and I'm going to allow people to make demands on me and vice versa and I'm going to Really dig in put some Roots here, but even that like remote work is still confrontational. I don't know. Like, we're split at Nori to on the opinion of remote work and we're all Millennials. There's a benefit to it and there's just a downside to like, the human interaction, human connection.
Do I want to be working at my desk, in My Den all day long and feel isolated from my co-workers, don't really know what's going on. So yeah, it is a solution but and maybe that middle ground, Around is because I where I work, I'll say I work with a much more aged population, my co-workers, and their bit more resistant, to remote work.
But I think remote work, that's, you know, maybe you're within 50 60 miles of your actual office in one of these smaller communities, and you're able to come in once or twice a week where it's a little bit more bearable because right, like your workplace is a place and that's part of what gets lost when everyone's remote you don't have a Shared sense of geography or that community of psychology where you see each other face to face the Arbitrage is so great though, if you can do it, where
I've had friends, who they'll be working at a company in DC or New York and they'll be living someplace that you like living in Phoenix or living in summer. One of the Rust Belt cities and they're like, wow, I just bought a house. So if you're able to pull that off, its Great.
But I also do I've done a lot of remote working and I used to think telecommuting is the future every in the future, everyone's going to do this and I was like I still feel very disconnected calling into stuff like that. So much better just being in the room. Even if I'm just like at home versus being in the office, it depends what you're doing though. To like some of the jobs over to be like I don't need to be here. We all know I don't need to be here.
Just let me go home but does it have to be all or nothing? It's like, oh, you either live. A place and you work there and your whole life is in that Community or you do. And or you do remote work, you live somewhere else. But what about in between, it's like, I'm starting to get the idea of like, well, what if I spent just a good portion of my time? I had multiple homes.
I mean, like, what? If I just spent a good portion of my time in Miami's bonding with my nephew, my God, my listeners must hate me. Like, I literally only talk about Noah, my nephew on this podcast, and then I come to the bingo card. Yes, but That on the next video
card. My nephew Noah love, you going home to Miami but then also coming often to Seattle but then also being on the road so that I can meet with potential clients meet with business partners, but having some type of cycle where you are able to be in one Community also into an another. Because do you really need me here every day? Like I don't know. I think that there's a like everything at a point of diminishing returns. I think I've talked to you about this event to Jeffrey.
I very good. I had a friend who wanted to do some travel blogging as a career and make this jump into something that he could travel with. And I've traveled a lot. I used to work like from my computer and bounced around all over the world and it was a great experience. But a lot of the time I was like, I can't wait to get back into a routine and I can't wait to like build a long-term connection to places and people and whatever as opposed. Endless variety and stimulation.
I think, I don't know what it is. That has so denigrated the stability of yet. Living close to your parents, being able to have that sort of like grandparents helping you with the kids, seeing them often actually building those relationships now that you're an adult and you can transform them from whatever they were when you were a kid and sort of like because you can't you can't really grow past that as an adult where you don't see your parents. Like it's you sort of need like
repeated exposure to that. And I think people have overvalue travel and they've undervalued, the sort of place based that being said, one more thing real quick as I'd like to make it heretical view but please fuck it. I want it. I want it. I want this heresy to that being said, I also I also like the freedom that liberalism has given me to choose these things and I'll sign it right now. We're talking about this in
discussing the book. Before you got here is I like that I have the choice, whether to be a part of this community moved back home so to speak. Or to live in the big city, and I'm not like bound to the land, like, a surf where I can't leave and go chase after better opportunities, because I have some sort of abstract Community benefit of my staying.
Well, give me your hair is see how my hair is C. So I would like to kind of trash on travel or maybe just Wanderlust do dunk on it. I mean, I don't know what noise that was. That was a dog, especially for partially. It's a generational thing, some of its in age, Thing. But there's this romanticization of seeing the world and travel distance. Travel is a great thing for Expanding Horizons and being
able to do a lot of stuff. Obviously, there's the carbon footprint concerns with so much travel that. So many of us do, that's part of the communitarian focus on going. Local, is minimizing a lot of that footprint as well. But part of this thing, I have against travel is more of Ken's waterless or psycho. I need to go find myself. I need to go Eat. Pray, Love somewhere, right? Where it's just like the Reality is that wherever you go? Most of your problems are going
to go there with you, right? So it's if you're just trying to go wander around my friends who live in Vans would be upset with me but, you know, just living in a van wandering, around the country, trying to solve your problems. May not be the best way to go that you have to face those wherever you're at. And so I think part of the importance or the benefit of local is minimizing the, those
carbon footprint. It's also about not having an outlet to try and Escape your problems that you really have to face them. Now, Now there are some very real threats in your physical space that do require you to leave. Maybe you do have an abusive relationship or an abusive Community, etc, etc. That's a different circumstance. It's funny that you say this and you make like this, Eat Pray Love reference and like going off and kind of dumping on this wander less.
I totally agree. And I say it's funny because when this airs, I will be like, meditating in a temple and like, Chiang Mai Thailand and just trying to unplug. So I agree with you. Wholeheartedly and I know I might sound like I'm contradicting myself. But I've been I plan this be like right right at the end of techstars at the end of October going through a lot of stuff,
lost your family member. So you know when Ross was talking about being with your parents and appreciating that I'm like yeah you just don't know when that's going to end. So enjoy it as much as you can. And anyways, it decided to do this trip stress of nori and I'm constantly reminding myself, you know, girl like It's not like the trip is going to like solve
your problem. So I've been meditating every day in the morning and the evening, since I decided to take the trip in preparation for X, I'm like, yeah, that might allow me to heightened get a little bit more quiet. No more. Slack messages and we're emails, no more text and it would just give me a sense of just a space and maybe a little bit of variety. So I could feel refreshed when I come back but the journey is
just going to continue. It's just like a little blip because all of all of the things that you're working through our like they're just Come with me and so I completely agree with you and it's still like a weird balance of. Yeah. Can I give myself a moment to just be really, really still and meditate. And I have to worry about any other things because it's really hard to do that, too. I know that if I were to say, okay, well, I'm going to be off the grid in Seattle.
No, I would blow up my computer. I would do, I would come stop by the Nori office, like I would just find all those little distractions. So to completely pull away to give yourself some space to is just like the, the alternative view of that. So, I'ma Agreeing with you but also highlighting some complications of trying to be local. You don't really get to unplug if that's something that you want to do every once in a blue moon. Well, we should start thinking
about how to end this thing. And I think we should do a little more on the book, what I would like to cover, which I, I hope or think would be really beneficial to listeners. Would be really trying to connect it into the question around solutions to reversing climate changes. Do we focus on what I think. So for example, there's an essay that was actually submitted and published with erratic asst by
one of my friends, Charlie dies. When the green New Deal came out, this is sort of his response to his. We don't need a green. You do, we need thousands of them and larger. What he's trying to say is look, when we have this very top-down approach to Solutions. Often times, they don't work one because they lack the motivation that comes from local Affinity, but they also lack the local knowledge, that small communities have.
So when you have something that comes from say Washington DC or even something in Seattle, that maybe comes from Olympia as a Washington state level. There are norms, there are even like legal nuances, that aren't known on these Federal levels. And so when you try and bring this top down, here's what everyone has to adopt. And endorse end up having a lot of negative unintended consequences.
And so, part of the thrust of this argument, I think can be a very communitarian argument is that our approach to reversing climate change. Needs to be thousands of communities working together. As tangible actual communities who know their Norms their practices. That are their nature that surrounds them and that they can come up with Solutions. I think of one of your former podcast, guess who I think a little bit more radical solution. But was it the black sheep who
were in were they Costa Rica? Yeah, that's right. And how they take very much this community. At least in some way could be interpreted as a communitarian approach where they're trying to keep Keep, you know, a very community-focused solution to food sourcing, you know, using permaculture, which is fantastic. And phenomenal thing. I love to think about and they're really focused on what they can do in this.
More holistic approach rather than waiting for some federal mandate to make the magic happen or waiting for large scale. Corporations to make the magic happen. I think all of them can be a solution and this is a praise. I want to give that I actually wanted to give to you all for
your podcast. I think with the the many, many perspectives from people that you have on the podcast, there's tons of people doing a lot of different solutions that as a whole, all these different unique efforts can come together and hopefully address this crisis that touches every aspect
of our lives. And rather than having one top-down solution, it's thousands of communities working together because you don't have a community unless you're building something together and climate change. Aw, Offers a chance for us to unify as communities to combat. Something drop the mic. That was good. That was necessary to get that in there. So if you're listening you're saying why is this podcast called reversing climate change? Are they going to get to it?
Shut your pie hole right now. That's it, Jeffrey, what do you think is the best criticism of communitarianism that, you know of? I don't think it like we painted a picture that was a bit Rosie. I think but it isn't a View and there's plenty of room to challenge basically everything we talked about. Yeah. So I'm going to list off a few names.
I think communitarianism, the nature of it is such that it doesn't fit easily into any other political camp and so it has enemies and a lot of directions where, for example, some of the points we brought up where maybe communitarians is too limiting that what if you're in a community that is so opposed to some aspect of your individual identity, that's very
threatening. Maybe you Identify in a non-binary way, with gender or sexual orientation and your community is absolutely against that in to the point of threatening your physical safety, right? That's an issue that communitarians maybe have to struggle with because you can't guarantee that that's part of the challenge with liberalism is trying to offer a universal ethos that preserves, the individual that pushes back against the particulars of different communities.
And so there's plenty of critics for that. I'm sorry. I Do not see why the two are in Conflict liberalism versus Community terrorism because liberalism could be a pathway to that. Again, you can break through the expected social contract of what your sexuality is, find your new community.
But the problem is again, like I think we're just too far out that were free and we're like going wild like when you first get to like drink alcohol, but now it's like okay, find those communities be able to break free little bit and reconnect and value really intentionally Building community and connections because if we just start off and say, okay liberalism was not working for us, it doesn't allow us to do this build communities. Then what happens is, you're
bound and we're full circle. I think me turns don't like that because it's elective. It's like something that you can do if you want to but you can get by without it and the consequences of us, not choosing that are bad and people are not choosing it, some critics I would save communitarianism.
One particular would be effective, altruism Peter singers and Big advocate of effective altruism, which the centerpiece of that argument is that when it comes to charity, and what is the ethical thing to do that, you need to find who is the person that is in greatest need of help. And that's where your charitable focus should go to. So shouldn't go to your family, or your local community, even though for most of us that's natural and reasonable to think.
Oh, if there's a stranger versus my Child and both of them are starving. Who do I help? And maybe committee chairman say well you help your child. That's your child. They have a natural obligation to you vice versa whereas maybe an effective altruist would say well who's in Greater need. Well, if your child ate yesterday or maybe they ate two days ago, but the stranger down, the road hasn't eaten for a week, you give that food to that stranger, which it can be interns going to have qualms
with. But it's sort of this question of, in our communities, in wealthy Seattle, do we help our neighbors or do we? Provide some support to the most impoverished corner of the earth. I think those are those are fair criticisms to. I think another prison that could be made is that you just don't get scale with a lot of these small things. Like with the problems were facing, we actually need scale and that scale either comes from the market or states. And that's what we need right now.
We don't have time to Tinker around with little things on farms. We need the gears of Industry moving right now, so people can make those claims and Fight about them. But whatever I think it's a cool perspective. I think it's worthy of people giving it a chance. Reason, Wendell Berry go hang out in Port William if you want. This book was very interesting to why liberalism failed by Patrick Janine.
I thought it was good. I think it's a very good introduction to. There's another concept that we didn't get in get into called Republican virtue, or communitarian thought, it's like, conservatives love to say it's liberty, not license. So I've heard that Like if you can't be free to choose to be some sort of rabble-rousing, some dab will do ya. You're supposed to choose. Good things if you're going to if you're going to govern yourself and live in a self-governing society, you got
to be a well-ordered person. You can't just be a drunk running around doing ever you want. So like what does freedom mean? If you can't choose us. Anyways, this is the book is a very good introduction to those. If it's new to you at all, I hope you enjoyed it. We went along, we went along but I think I think we covered some good ground there. Got silly Geoffrey if I want to follow your work if they like you and want to know what's going on in those mind, grapes over there.
How might they do so? Well, first of all, I can check out erratic asst. Just type in erratic Ascend into any search engine, it will pull up on top nice. Good SEO. Put them in the show notes. Grr, 80 icus, correct, cool. Anything else no start there. I'm on Twitter. You can find me. Jeffrey, Howard as well, but all goes back to radek asst. Nice. I just want to wrap up here with our final show for the year, for the two years. Oh my God! You're right, because it is a
continuous season. Is that what we're going to do? This is the end of the first season and then we're going to open a new one, A two-year long season speaking of continuous content, it's more work than it looks like folks. Yeah and you can please send rasa lovely email. Tell him how much you appreciate the podcast? Ross puts a lot, a lot of I mean, it's like the driver behind this podcast, so happy New Year Ross. Thank you so much for having us on this podcast and doing this
all the time. And also, I just wanted to say thank you to our listeners. We so appreciate hearing from you on a lot of you send emails to us, they're lovely to read. We hope you have a beautiful holiday, a blessed new year. And don't forget to keep tuning in and watch out for season 2. Yeah, we have some exciting things planned. And for it. Thanks for the kind words. Yeah you can reach us at podcast and worry.com or hello. It nor e.com you want to rate and review Us in iTunes.
Apple podcast. Stitcher please do so. Thanks for listening and thanks for being here. Jeffrey, thank you, it's a pleasure. Thank you. Jeff had a good time. Okay okay well we'll see you whenever it is that we return in 2020 2020 sometime. Okay fine.