Vanessa Matsui

were so instrumental. I remember during the pilot you and I spent so much time together and trying to figure out what this world is. You were figuring out Warlocks, I was figuring out shadow Hunters. We were figuring out this family dynamic and history and relationship, and it felt as though we built a little family between you and me and Maxim. And getting to sort of watch Dot continue to come back over the years was so wonderful,

despite her many ill fated incidents. So tell us a little bit about how you got involved in shadow Hunters, what the audition process was like, your first experiences with the material. Were you aware of this story before this audition came your way? Yeah? I mean no, I was not aware of Uh, of the material before it came

my way. I think how it all came about. I remember I had a general at free form Um and then the audition came in and it was one of those really lovely auditions where it was just it was it was one audition and then I just got the part, which literally never as you know, that never happens. Usually you have to really go through the ringer and they make you really work for it. So yeah, it was

it was really deceptively easy. I mean, you know, you do all these other auditions and you never know what's going to pan out, and this one I really I remember really connecting with it. I thought it was I really liked dot immediately um as soon as I had read it, So maybe it had just it kind of came of. There are times I just watched because it's so difficult with what we do to not sound arrogant at times, like to a real sort of balance that

we played. Like you want to talk about what I do, and I'm proud of what I do, but I don't want to. I don't want to come across as like, look at me, I'm doing this acting thing, you know what I mean, Like I don't ever want to be

that guy. But I saw this interview with with John C McGinley recently, who played Dr Cox in Scrubs, and he was talking about playing Dr Cox in Scrubs and he said when he went into the audition, there were a bunch of other guys there and they were all sort of studying their lines and like you could see them trying to get into character. And he was just sat with his arm on the couch and he was like, Oh, I got this one. I'm getting this role for sure.

Like if this is my competition here, if these are the other guys I'm testing with, I got this one. And he did because that's who the character was, and he knew he knew that this was the role that was right for him in this in this world, he knew that he could do this. And I think there's a world in which that is really important. I think it's actually a really important thing to go in. Like you're saying, you know, you connected with Dart and it was it was a done deal. You know, everyone else

saw that connection obviously. I think sometimes it's also just about trusting that connection. I think you know, when you're acting sometimes it's you know it is it is hard

to not overthink things. Sometimes I think, you know, we wanted so badly that you can get into that space of I don't want to say, like trying too hard, but sometimes it is that, And sometimes it is your best auditions or your best take is really those ones where you just kind of let it go and you know, you obviously you have to do the work, you put everything in, and then you at one point do you

have to just sort of throw it away? Or at least that that's how I feel, for I agree with yeah, or if nothing else is like an exercise in in in exploration, like you know, throwing that one. Some of some of my favorite directors I've worked with, in fact, all of my favorite directors I've worked with have always said, do one for you. We've got a little more time, do one for you. Just do whatever you want, you know, forget the direction, forget the lines to a certain extent,

just do just do one. You know, we've got a little more time, the cameras are rolling, Just do one for you. And nine times out of ten there's something, even if it's not right or good, there's something interesting that comes out of that way, like well, it's interesting. I didn't know that Jace dot Clary could behave that way, but that's how we interacted and that's what came out. And that's an interesting like level of their psyche that I've just sort of discovered through that process, which is

really cool. Well, that's just it. It's trusting the work that you've done and then allowing yourself the freedom to just exist in that, in whatever person you've created or warlock you've created, and and trust everyone else around you that you know, we're creating this together and let it kind of fly and be free. And that's there's a a magic to it. We keep talking about magic. There's no better word for it, but that's kind of all

we have. Yeah, I no, I mean I agree a p. I think sometimes even when I talk about acting with people, I do sometimes feel that when it's good, like you know, when you have that connection there really is it's akin to magic, absolutely, because sometimes it's strangers, it's people that you've never really met before. I haven't really had the time to gell and you can have this magical connection once you're able to just like let yourself go, let let it, let it flow. It is. Yeah, I remember

I had that with I did. I did just a shadow and as I did a show called Penny Dreadful, and I played a very interesting character and that interesting

he was a Nazi. Not interesting, he was a horrible guy. Um, but he had this weirdly sort of subverted, kind of beautiful relationship with this councilman who's played by Michael Graddis, And we remember reaching out to him before we started and like, obviously we've got to do some pretty heavy stuff in this, like let's just go and grab a coffee or whatever, um and just have a chat and get to know each other a little more so you

know where our boundaries are or whatever. And it was I remember in that moment being like, oh my god, I love this guy. Like I'm going to learn a huge amount from him in that relationship. Already started to gell and we haven't started playing the characters yet, like this one, and it is it feels like magic. I remember going home talking so I think my girlfriend at the time, and she was like, how did it go? And I was like, I'm gonna have the best time.

I'm so excited. I'm so excited to start this because it was just this really cool, like yeah, really cool thing. Yeah, that is it's so nice when that happened. Absolutely, and it started with the three of you, right like our show kind of started with the three of you, well to some extent, I mean, but you, you and Emerald

and Matt. There was your world at the institute that you guys were building, and then there was our world in you know, the sort of what we thought was the mundane world with Simon and Luke and you and Jocelyn and and Clary and all of these folks who had these there were these two little families and suddenly

they crashed into each other and everything exploded. But it was really interesting having those sort of scenes of normalcy that were some of the first scenes we shot of just us in the antique store having a little chat about Clary's birthday or you know, these things where it's it's so mundane for lack of a better word, but it's so instrumental in in establishing and building the world. Absolutely. I know, I loved shooting that scene with you. Well, so why don't we talk about that, like we can

literally with you, which is kind of amazing. We can literally start at the beginning, we talked about your passing process, which is irritating, like she was just so perfect she got it right away, and we're like, oh great, yeah months it took us, but that's fine. It just now never doesn't hurt to hear that someone was just so fantastic. They're like, yeah, the roles are yours. You go for it. I'm kidding. Of course, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We couldn't

have wish for anyone better. But what tell us, tell us what you're what? Day one was? Tell us what walking onto the set for the first time was. Tell us what putting on dots clothes and creating that look was. Tell us, Like, because you did you you know, you really started the show, like from the get go. I mean my first fitting was when I started to get a taste for what this was going to be, because they were the best clothes that I've ever, I want

to say, to this day, have had on set. Like it was like it was designer, I mean, and now that we know more about the Warlocks, like they are they are you know, their fashion, and it was I remember feeling just so fabulous, Like I can't remember what brand it was, but the red dress that was you know, tech fiber, and it was one of those experiences where you know, you do hear actors talk about this that you put on the costume and you really start to

embody what it was. And I was like, okay, this is the world we're in, Like this is a bit it is mundane, but it was elevated and I could feel that I was part of this other world. And then it was just you know, that plane duality with you because you can't you didn't know what was about to happen to you as the character, even though I knew. So it was Yeah, it was. It was a really it was really nice scene. I think that was the a scene in that antique shop. I think, so the

first scene we ever shot on the show. I think it might have been. It was very early, and it was because none the studios were ready, That's what I remember to A whole bunch of stuff hadn't been built, so we were shooting on location and that place is actually now destroyed, like I think that's one of the last things. Yeah, it's like a condo now. And I remember in the attic they were all those weird records

like it was it was such a wild building. Yeah. Yeah, So that, yeah, and then stepping on to that set. I mean, I also I love filming on location, so that that was a real treat and yeah, yeah, yeah it was fun. And then doing those stunts and destroying everything. I wanted to talk about this too. That's one of my favorite characters because first of all, we talked about like the immortals and how difficult it must be to embody an immortal who's been through so many relationships and whatever.

And later on we discover your relationship with Magnus and you know, all of this stuff that's gone through the course of your life, but you were you, like Dot was immortal, not for lack of trying. Like everyone tried to kill you at some point, like you did constantly getting like throwing through windows and stabbed and like all this, and then added out for Dot. Dot was back, like

she's the immortal of all immortals. It was crazy as a theory that Dot's like the most powerful warlock of them all because you just can't you can't get rid of her, and that's why everyone's trying to kill her

because she's just too powerful. I know. Well it's really wild, you know, And going back to the audition, when I originally an audition for it, I thought I was in just I think it was maybe one episode, maybe two, And so maybe that's also why they just cast me really quickly, because they were like, whatever, you know, day player over here. But you know what, that's even cooler because even if that was the case, you convinced them

on set. Your performance was such that you convinced them on set to like ship, no, we're going to try and kill her, and then to keep bringing her ass back a bunch of times. It's gonna be all. They fell in love with you. It was very It was very nice to be asked back. I was. I remember being very shocked because I mean I knew that I was going to die, So yeah, when I got brought back, I was obviously so excited. And I even remember so

many of of your episodes. We we always had a moment when we would look at each other and go, is this your last episode? I don't know, do I say goodbye to you? Do we do the thing where we say series wrap on? Or are you coming back? I don't know exactly. I know who knows, who knows? Yeah, she is very immortal. I know, yes, so many exactly that's because it was the pilot, right right, where Doc gets thrown out of the window, but then she comes back, but it was not really her comes back as the

demon and then back again. Correct, Yeah, and then we see you in season two as well, right, yeah, come back in season two? Yeah? Yeah, amazing because yeah again I think am I lying when? Because you ended up in Chernobyl with Valentine and he's a stabby stabby you know, Psycho through the window thing, and that wasn't that the last time we saw you in season one? And then you came back in season two? Or did you come

back again in season one? I think I may have come back again in season one, but I was I had all that the crazy makeup, and I was drained of life and it was like all tattooed. I remember being in the makeup trip that it was wild because it was it was so much because it was like the whole phase of the whole body. And then I came back and there was with the with the little girl, and but then eventually I got better, Our Dot got better, and then and then I come back and then, h

we should clarify Dot got better. This wasn't like an affliction that Vanessa had that she turned up and just had all this ship like growing all over and they're like, I guess we got to write it in because you've got this thing, was saying, very talented makeup. Can you imagine? I feel that good of an actor. You can just say, hey, we need these like these like blue veins going through your facing, Like listen, it's not on my CV for nothing.

Here we go and yeah, it done. Problem guys. I mean, dot Dot had many talents though, aside from veins and healing and coming back, she was our introduction to the tarot cards, which eventually led us to the Mortal Cup. So what do you do You have any tarot experience yourself or is this did you have to learn for the show? I don't. Yeah, I mean I'd always dabbled. I have a couple of friends who are really good at tarot, so and I love getting my card spread.

If I'm being totally honest, I find it really exciting. And sometimes once in a while, you know, I'll pull if I'm feeling the need for inspiration, I will pull a card. But no, I did have to learn what it was and how to do it, and and yeah, now out. I love it pretty easy to do, especially when you you know, it becomes so instrumental to something

that you do. It's it's that's something I do love about our industry as we get to learn little bits of so many different skills and hobbies and aspects of

life that some of them kind of stickally. Oh absolutely even something when you get to learn about these moments, sometimes it's like your redescript And like I I got to be in uh and that GEO show last year or I guess just under called called the Hot Zone and it was all about the anthrax attacks at Post nine eleven, which as I'm Canadian, so I didn't you know, obviously I knew about nine eleven, but you know, I think like nine eleven was so that was the big

news story in Canada and these anthrax attacks that I had never heard about, so did a ton of research on it. And it's just it's such a it was a wild moment in American history, um that I had no idea about. There's so much. There's so much in script that I think it's fascinating. Like I remember reading this was really interesting reading my first Elvis script and it wasn't for the Basilman one. Um, it was for one previous to that, which I think and ended up

not getting made, which is a shame. Elvis was blocked and he used to dye his hair because he wanted to look like his favorite movie stars. That crazy, and I was like, that's crazy. No idea, absolutely no idea, And then I googled it and I was like, yeah, sure enough. There it is, like can you do this research about these people like we got I got very

deep into uh not manson Dharma. They're doing show about Dharma and I was in the running for that for a little bit, and I really did some research, you know, and when you on your way to playing someone who existed, they did everything a certain way, like there isn't really that much creative freedom there. Like they walked a certain way, they talked a certain way, they spent to cigarette a certain way, they their food a certain way. So I,

you know, went really deep into it. And some of the things that you were in the script, you're like, there's no way, there's just no way that that happened. And you look it up and you're like, oh my god, ye that happened, and that's like, you know, either horrendous

or like really inspired. Not in the Dama case obviously, but like sometimes you read something and you're like, wow, that's what an incredible story that it just seems so unlikely, but it's it sort of sticks with you, and then you get to draw on these little things in the future, whether it's a skill or something you've heard or something someone else does. And I agree with you, Cat, I think that's one of the most wonderful things about what we do is we get to sort of adds little

things to our like file ef facts of human beings. Absolutely, yeah, we are very lucky. Yeah, coming back to one of my favorite things about getting to do this podcast is we get to find out We get these briefs from our amazing producers and we get to find out little bits of things about people we know and love that we had no idea. So I had no idea that you started in improv and we're a part of that

world for a little bit. And again another skill that you bring into everything else, idios to tell us a little bit about that. That's a world that's relatively foreign to me at least like through the traditional improv world. Um, but it's it's fascinating and I think it takes It's a very admirable one that takes a lot of skills. So talk us through that. Yeah, so I started, I

guess I discos. I didn't discover improv until I was in university and there was a theater that offered free improv classes on Sunday nights and then you got to do the show afterwards. And it was probably it was a theater St. Catherine in Montreal, and my teacher was Eric Amber. He's incredible. He learned um from Keith Johnstone. So I learned a kind of improv that is very story based and grounded. It was never like ha ha improv. It was really starting with basics and trusting the hilarity

would ensue through these very normal situations. And I just I loved it. I've I mean, there was a point in my life where I was probably improvising like five nights a week at different ones across the city and theaters, and I was part of an improv company called The Bitter End and we did a completely serialized sitcom, completely improvised every single week, and it started to get a really big following in Montreal, and we eventually made a

web series at the dawn of the Internet. I think we were probably one of one of the first web series ever. Anyway, it was a really so cool, yeah, like formative time of my life and I I love it every time I'm about to start a new experience because the feeling before it was called Sunday Night Improv and you would get voted, you would do these scenes and you have we had a director, but you would

get voted by the audience from one to five. So it was like quite humiliating in a really really great way, and like part of it was all so just like really embracing failure and really embracing you know, if you're tanking, like just let it tank and then see what happens. And then it's pretty amazing what can happen if you

really are embracing the present moment. And it really helps with my acting a lot, because all you have is the other person in front of you, and so that laser focus on your partner and creating something spontaneously in the moment, and and getting a five is extremely difficult, Like I think in my entire improv career, I got like one five And when it happens, it is so

it's probably one of the best feelings in the world. Um. But also when you are dying on stage it I used to call it the improv death, feeling like there's nothing worth like your stomach. You can feel the audience just so horrified for you. And but it's a great learning lesson. Like I have a daughter now and I think to myself, I like, oh, no, I'm going to

put her in improv because I feel like it. Yeah, it's one of those things that teaches you to, you know, fail a bunch of times, get up again, get up again constantly, and also not even you start to not even care about failure totally speaking of not that in any way, shape or form. When you came into Dot, When you came in to meet Dot, did you know the future she had? Did you know the past she had? Did you know that she had these relationships and ties

with like we mentioned before, people like Magnus. No, they just kept throwing these new things at you. Yes, everything. I feel like I discovered things as I mean, I read I read the books, so I knew, but Dot in the books dies immediately, so there wasn't that much more to go off of. So no, absolutely, when scripts would come in when that one um, like the dance episode, Uh, that's when I learned that I had this past relationship

with him. But yeah, no, I didn't know any That's cool, So well that's so that's my sort of follow up question. Then did that obviously must have impacted how you developed art, how you created this character, because you didn't have necessarily the backstory. You really just had like and forgive me if I'm if I'm miss speaking, but you really just had like the character blurb that we get sent for

the auditions, right, Yes, I had. I had the other novel and I had the character blurb, and I had the pilot, and then after that it was just episode to episode. I would get the scripts sometimes sometimes yeah, it's okay when you're shooting. Sometimes the day of you don't get the in between episodes either. So you're like,

I don't know what exactly came on. I can't which episode it was, but everyone was treating Jays like ships, so it was like it must have been a mid season two at some point when that was happening to me and she remember her coming on. She was like, why is everyone being so mean to you? And I was like Oh that's right. You haven't read what happened in this middle bit. Yeah. No, A whole bunch of ship happened. Like I'm responsible for a huge amount of

death and now I'm like super in the doghouse. She's like, oh, cool, cool, cool, cool cool, Okay, great, let me put them into wear a map. Right. It's such a weird thing because it was it was a pretty secretive show. You know, they were worried about weeks. So exactly if you were only jumping in every other episode, Yeah, no, I wouldn't receive the scripts in between. Sometimes they talked to you cat and you would sort of tell me all and people people would sort of film me in. They're like, no,

we saw your name coming. I was like, oh great, I'm coming. Okay, great, what's going to happen? I have no idea. It's so funny. It's funny. It's listing when new people or not when new people, when people come in who haven't been in for a while, like going through the like I can't remember. I was talking to somebody and they were like, you know, I haven't seen it. I haven't seen this person. It's like, oh, yeah, they're dead. They died we killed them off like four episodes ago.

They're gone coming back. That's what about this person dead that isn't dead? Yeah? Yeah, well, and then so much happens in every episode two. It's always funny to try and fill someone in and go, you know, okay, we have five minutes while they're resetting the cameras. Let me try and tell you everything that's happened, and you know,

shadow him out there. You know how much happens in an episode, and you're going, well, this happened, but then this happened because of this, and there's this other thing, and these people are trying to do this, and these people don't like each other, but we're related and we're not related anymore. But we don't know about this, and it's just it's down the rabbit hole of all of these little threads. But somehow it all came together, It

all works out. It is a mini miracle when a show actually comes together, because there's so much work involved. It's it is, it's a it's a mini miracle. It's a mini miracle. Get a show off. The grant is a mini miracle. Once it's like after shooting it, and it's incredible. There's so many moving powers, and especially a show like this, like it's like eighteen different storylines going

on at any one time. It's like the whole way through, like they I think that's a common theme that I found with books like if, especially fantasy books, if you try and translate those into I mean, I think we saw it. I in my opinion, I think a large reason why the movie didn't continue ongoing is because there's so much subject matter that needs to be covered, and movies don't. They really just don't have the time to

do that. Whereas a TV show, we could sort of slowly introduce you know, we have our Warlock episode, and we have our Wearwolf episode, we have our Vampire episodes, and you get bit by bit of sort of the storyline coming through. And I think you're right, Like having a TV show, having a TV show in general as a miracle. Working on that TV show as an actor is a miracle, Like getting the job as a miracle. Then getting past the pilot stage is a miracle. We

didn't even have that, which is amazing. And then for it to run two seasons, three seasons, three seasons plus two episodes, is it like astronomical All the things that had to come together for that to work. It's like, absolutely incredible. I have a question for you. If you could have directed any episode of shadow Hunters, which episode would you wanted to direct? Oh? Such a good question. I just came to me. It's not even in my notes or is it? Maybe it is? Did I did?

I read it subconsciously earlier? And then I'm just taking all of the credit for our producer as well. I don't think so. I mean, I've really to be honest, I really loved all the directors that I got to work with on shadow Hunters, and I'm always taking like now that I'm directing more and more, and I think that that's going to be part of that's like what I want to do is I mean, I love acting. I always want to act, but definitely I love directing

as well. Um, So I was always taking notes watching our directors because that's it's a shadow Hunters is hard, Like that's not a it's it's hour long. There's a ton of action. There's also the romance, there's stunts, there's special effects like that is not an easy job for any director, and like we were saying, there's so many moving parts plus all the history and bringing together a big ensemble of characters. So I don't know, I feel like I want to direct. Um, it's a great question.

I'm so sorry. Well, there's so many good ones. I mean, each one. I was just going to say, each one is so challenging in its own way that I would, honestly like I would I would be happy if I would direct any of those episodes. I feel like that would have been just such a it's such a gift like those. I don't even know. I'm not ready for that, any any of them. Maybe the dance episode, what was it called You Care? I can't remember. I don't remember.

But also that's another thing. You were one of the very few people that got the unique experience of getting to be a part of one of the few musical elements of our show and be quick Because did Harry choreograph that as well? Yeah, so I thought, because I was living in l A at the time, so it was really fun. Yeah, Harry choreographed it. I got to go to his house. He's got like a dance studio, dancestairs,

and so he taught me the dance. And even when they were calling they I guess they called my reps first, and they're like, so Convanesca dance, and actually, like I do have a lot of dance experience. I was like, yeah, I haven't done it a long time, but I'm sure I can just pick it up. And it's like, okay, well it's gonna be choreographed by Harry. And then I got really nervous because he's you know, he's Harry. He's Harry, but you know obviously so lovely and generous and and kind.

But the craziest thing I don't even know if I've told you this cat, but I I was pregnant at the time and no idea, and so I'd be working and and so Harry and I would be like working it out and I'm trying to learn the dance, and after it, I'd just been like, ah, I am so winded. And you know when you're pregnant there it actually does something to your lungs, like your lung capacity is reduced. And I just didn't know what the time, and I was like, man, I must be really out of shape.

And I kept going for hikes and trying to get my stamina up. And it turns what I was totally pregnant and even we were shooting it, I still didn't realize I was pregnant. I was like, man, I am so tired, and I was chugging coffee and doing those stunts. Is crazy. I told me. She's like, no, no, no, you were so early. The baby was like a tiny little It's not. Everything's fine and everything she's perfect and fine,

but it was. It was one of those things. It's so crazy when I think about it, like I can't believe in a harness jumping off a building, getting twirled in the air, and I'm like, I'm so tired. Irobered me. I mean, doing that alone is enough to wear a personnel, but to do it that is exactly my goodness, You are a superhero, Isn't that funny? I always think so that. I think that episode also just has a special place in my heart because I think I found out shortly after.

I was like, oh, that's fine, and you're saying you want to direct this episode? On top of that, Vanessa Uh I directed my first feature this year, and I was so terrified to direct on my first day because it was something I had You know, I had directed short Form and I had directed for Ghost BFF. But you know future length, and so it's a different ballgame.

And the same feeling I had before walking onto set that first day was the same feeling I likened it to about about to go on stage and having absolutely no idea what you were going to do. And I remember it felt like just jumping off and diving in.

And then as soon as I got as soon as I did it, I just I felt incredible and I was like, oh wow, Thank god I had that experience when I was younger, of feeling the fear and doing it anyway and building that resilience and that confidence, or else I don't even think I would I would have directed.

I would have been too scared. Very cool, Well, speaking of that process, talk to us a little bit about ghost BFF, because that is your brain and yeah, and I remember hearing about it while you were working on Shadow Hunters, like a rains thing or shooting something for it. But then hopefully it's going to build into more and then to watch that happen, I was so proud of you. So tell us tell us everything to first explained to folks if they maybe haven't heard of ghost BF, where

can they find it? Give them a little bit about it. And then let's let's hear how you brought it to life. Yeah, so okay, Ghost BF is a short series about two best friends, but one is dead, uh and she died by suicide. It was it's loosely inspired by my experience with my childhood best friend when she almost died by suicide. And she is thriving now by the way, and is a pediatrician and like she's incredible and spending time with her and just noticing and this was you know, I

started creating this probably eight years ago now. So at the time, I feel like the conversation around mental health was just not what it is today. Like now things are it's not as taboo as it was, um maybe ten years ago. And so I really wanted to make a comedy. I think maybe because of my background and improv I felt like, you know, suicide is a very heavy topic and depression is very heavy, um, but yet I wanted to help de taboo the stigma around it.

So yeah, my background as a improviser, what was the best way that I thought I could do that? So I wanted to make a comedy about depression. Um, So that's what I did, and yeah, I got I think It was probably around the time that I got the pilot for Shadow Hunters, so a lot of things had been happening, and I eventually got the green light to

to create a first season of my show. It got picked up by Elizabeth Banks is uh straight called Hoko ha ha h. It enjoyed lots of views, and I got to go to festivals around the world, and it was really it was. It was an incredible experience and I'm really grateful for it. And I got to so I got to I wrote a start in it, and I also directed some episodes, and that's really where I started to get my my taste of my of of

writing and directing and um and show running. And then I got I got the green light to to create the second season, and Sundance then came aboard and helped me with development for season two. And that was one of the most creatively profound experiences of my life. Where I got it was it was right before the pandemic, and so I got to just you know, be in l A, be in California, be with like a group of ten artists, get mentored by some of my favorite

writers and directors. Uh was Yeah, I was really, really special and then I shot Fantastic. Yeah, I shot season two like right before the pandemic, and then I was doing post in that first locked in and we were on major lockdown, so it was it was a really crazy experience and I had my daughter was only two years old, so it was it was crazy. Um But anyway, Yeah, you can now watch ghost BFF. It's on YouTube. It's or you can just go to ghost bf dot com.

Amazing and the episodes are super short there six minutes long. There's two seasons, and I'm really proud of that. Love the concept. Congratulations by the way, that's an incredible feet of Achieva. But I really like the concept of telling a heavier story through the guys of a comedy, like the guys who've done it before. Ricky Gervais is amazing at it. He does a really good job at that sort of stuff. What was the show he did after

was it After Life where his wife dies? Yeah? Yeah, the same thing and coming back to you know, I mentioned it earlier, but Scrubs is a very similar thing as well, where it's like it's a comedy and then every now and then something happens and you're like, oh, shoot, like it's just for me. Yeah, it's just hit me.

And now I'm thinking about I'm aware of it. And I think why I prefer that is because I find myself very often like these amazing movies come out about or TV shows come out about hardship, about whatever it is, you know, mental health, whatever the struggle is, and in my head, I'm like, I just I can't process this right now, Like I'm at the end of a long day and the last thing I want is to is to sort of relive like struggles through someone else's eyes.

And you're almost like in a nice way, being tricked into it when it's a comedy, like we can sort of laugh our way through this, and also like divulge these feelings within myself and cathosize these feelings within myself where it's like, oh yeah, okay, cool, this was a really actually a really pleasant experience that was quite emotionally beneficial for me as well. So that's great, keep doing it. We want to see more. Yeah, well, I also find

it to be more true to life. I don't know about both of you, but for me, I I tend to press this things and deal with things and cope with things through comedy and through trying to find the silver landing or making you know, somehow light of it in a way. Um. And when comedies do that, I think it hits a lot closer to home because it's

it's more grounded in the imperfections of human emotions. It's that that giggle that at a funeral or that something that you can't control, but it's just your body helping you survive. Absolutely. And also, you know when I was when I was with my my dear friend, when she was really struggling, you know, the only thing she wanted

to watch was the Mindy Projects. She was obsessed. I was like, oh, that's so, and you know she was, you know, and it was very dark and it was it was a sad time, but it was like she loved the Mini Project. And I was just thinking, you know, if I was making this show for the sad girls, like I don't want to make them more sad, want everything like where's the where's the levity, Where's the where's um? The way out? Is the way out? Like the you know, how do we get out of this like hole that

we found ourselves in. Yeah, I completely agree with you. And two D Taboo something I think if you're too over, you know, you're hitting it too hard. It's exactly that it becomes a bit like repellents in a way. For me at least, I do need the access points. And I think comedy is such a powerful bridge to talk about really difficult things. And I have so much admiration for for writers and comedians who are able to bridge those topics through comedy, because I think it can really

help to open open people's minds. Yeah, what is it like? What is it like? Because we've discussed this a couple of times as well with other with other guests. What is it like directing yourself in something? How does that? How is that for you? Because it's just from my point of view, I'm not sure it's something I could do.

Maybe later on in my career, I don't know, but as it stands right now, I don't think I could separate myself from like the scenes every time and come back and see it from like the person you know totally. I mean, part of it is that you do need

a very strong team around you. I trusted my producer Katie Nolan implicitly, so I always knew so she would always be on set on the days that if I was acting and directing, um I have you get an amazing stand in, so somebody that so all of your reverses you can you can block out everything look like you can look at it through the camera with your standing have a really good idea and sometimes if they're like a really intuitive stand into, they can actually you know,

they'll be watching you as the actor doing other scenes and so then they can be a bit more intuitive about maybe what your movement would be like as you're just figuring out camera stuff. Um so, and also you know, like a wonderful DP who you trust as well, who

has your eye. I mean, it's challenging, it's but also the part that's not challenging, but it's nice about directing yourself versus other people is that you don't it's one last person you have to communicate with, Like, you know, I already know what my note is, and I don't have to figure out a way to talk to an actor about what that note is. I can just like

talk to myself and then you do it. And also you do have to sort of just block a little extra time because I do like to watch playback, so I'll make sure that I was okay in that, and sometimes I'll just roll like two or three times, do it a bunch of times, and then I'll watch so it's not you know what I mean, because you don't get heavy about it. Yeah, but yeah, I enjoy it.

That's amazing, that's incredible. I think there's a of the actors that I know, There aren't a huge amount of them that I would be like, you can do this, and I think it's amazing that you're one of those actors. Alberto is another one. Alberta would be able to for sure, Like Alberta helps me with tapes all the time, and

his direction is always so incredible. So good right, Well, that's I think another thing like actors are actually you listen, this is what I always tell actors too, they are the best directors because they they have been helping all of their friends with the Brazilian self tapes over the years, so you already know how to communicate with actors in

a way. Also, you know, I sometimes think it's like I've been acting for for twenty years and a lot of actors are acting a lot longer than that, and so that's a lot of onset experience that I think, you know, maybe new directors wouldn't necessarily have hours and hours and hours of on set experience, which is, you know, such a gift. And I agree, like I love I can. I mean, if nothing else, I would say that the

actors make the best communicators as directors. I think they understand in my experience, at least working with directors who have also been actors, they understand the proclivities of how dynamics need to work on set exactly, how what needs to go where, how the different people need to be spoken to, how you know, you treat different departments, how

everything you know, all of that they sort of understand that. Um, I wouldn't necessarily be forthright enough to say that they're the best directors in the world, because I've also worked with actors that would make horrible directors. I would be a horrible director. But yeah, I think especially communicating with actors, because this is what people don't realize, like I guess, or maybe people do realize this, Like everyone needs to

be spoken to a slightly different way. Nobody likes to be communicated with exactly the same as the person who was just previously communicated with, right, And I guess actors are a little more polarized in that because you get, as a general rule, quite high up personalities, quite heavy personalities, but from very different levels of experience, with very different like backgrounds or whatever. So you get these big personalities who are all very different and it's almost like big brother.

They just throw you in a room together and be like, Okay, you guys have to get on, go go do your thing. So I think knowing like like these directors who know like, and especially directors who do like one episode in season three and people, we've had this dynamic already for three years and they come in and they go, I know you, I know how to talk to you and how to talk to you. I'm figuring you out like and that.

And it's such a big part of being a director, especially in TV, is that you have to understand because it's so many times we've seen it happen where directors and actors just hit loggerheads and you almost want to be like, you can't talk to the director this way. Director can't talk to you this way. Nobody's being rude or mean. It's just that's just not how these two people communicate. That's not your love language. That's not how this works, right, Like you have to find that dynamic. Yeah.

Well it's interesting too because I find that I've found this with Sally so much. Sally Whitfield, who came to direct a couple of times for us. She was so good, as were many of our other directors, but at trusting different departments to do what they do best and and almost going no, no, this is your thing, this is what I want for it, but do your thing, and here's my vision. And I always took note of that because as actors, we have to do the same thing.

We have to trust the wardrobe department. We have to trust the sound department and the stunt department and all of these other departments to to just take care of

things when we have no control over them. And I find that a lot with with actors who then become directors because they have had that trust built up, and often if it's even if it's their set, they've known these people for years and they're able to just step aside and go, okay, here you go, dear thing, and it often turns out so well because people get to thrive creatively in their space. Oh that's such a good point.

At solutely because I mean, even think about yourself, like how much do you like to be micromanaged as an actor? Like when you have those directors who like our micromanagements, you're like, like, you can't thrive. And it it goes back to what we were saying earlier about you know, getting that take where you get to just do it for yourself and be freak sometimes when you are managed, like I don't know a ton of actors who appreciate that, you know, and and you know, I don't hate it

at times. It depends on the situation, like it's so interesting, like I hate if it's constant, like if it's so For those who don't know, I'm sure you've heard the term. But listeners, it's a big sort of no no kind of across the board. It's called giving a line read, and it's when a director comes up and says, literally, I want you to say it like this and takes all of the creative control out of your hands. Um, and it's sort of it's a bit to do across

the industry. Is not really done however, if we're running late and it's sort of one of those scenes where it's like a little trivial and like my it's not taking a huge amount of emotional involvement. It's you know, we're really just sort of rattling off information and I'm stood in the wrong place, or I'm turning my head the wrong way, it's blocking the camera, whatever it is coming,

Give me a line read. I don't care. Give me a line read, because in an hour's time I have to go and change and then I have to do an emotional scene. Great, let's get to that. Let's spend another hour on that, as opposed to spending an hour here, Like he's not it's not exactly what we want. We want this, we want this whatever. Just tell me I don't care. I don't care totally, you know what I mean.

That's such crying and you say, actually, can we have the tear come out of the right eye, and then I'm going to have an issue like yeah, not a puppet. That's an excellent point, and you're right, there's definitely a time and place and sometimes and it definitely worked with actors too, who are just like, you know, tell me what you need for me right now, and like I do appreciate that collaboration, and but I love Yeah, I love.

My catch just said, like allowing the departments to thrive and to have you know, yeah there, yeah, because and I think that's when things really go to the next level. You know who was the best at that? Todd Todd came in. Todd directed the last two episodes of the show. Todd Slavkin, who was season two on show Runner Range, came to set every day and the mornings, the days I was lucky enough to be first up and I

was in those first scenes in the morning. He made a point for four weeks or for three and a half weeks when we shot those two episodes, he made a point of thanking every a different department every day. So every day he would say he would sit, sit everyone down and have a great day. We're going to

do this. Also, can we thank the set deck department of putting this set together because it's absolutely incredible and everyone every day over the course of those two episodes, everyone in our crew got made to feel special at least once, and I thought it was the most incredible thing.

And it's something that's really stuck in my mind, and if ever I'm lucky enough to to maybe direct something in the future, it's one of those little things that I've been like, I'm going to take that because that's a really it's a really special thing to do. Is a really special way to treat the set. You know,

it is is and it's putting it. This is something that shadow Hunter has taught me across the board, just about set life and about production, is that I watched every single department set ego aside and go, let's let's work together. Let's not fight over resources, let's not focus on all of these other hang ups that come up and red tape when are often working together and just make a good story and create a world together and share ideas across lines that are often not crossed on

a set. And I just I found that process, that roundtable sort of a process sometimes quite literally um to be really beautiful and and something I try and take as much as they can to every set moving forward. Oh I love that. I mean both of you were also just such incredible one and two like you guys set a really great tone, and I do have to say that about about both of you, I felt very welcome. Even on that first table raid and meeting you got

like it was. Yeah, the first table read is tough because The first table read for anything is like the last audition. People think you've got the job, Like you've signed your contract. You're going to get paid for at least one episode. No matter what your contracts signed, you're doing work on that episode. You're going to get paid for at least one episode. That is a done deal. However, if you do a shitty job at that first table read,

every single ear is listening. The heads of I don't think Netflix was involved yet, but the heads are preformed, the heads of Disney TV. They were all listening to that, and if any one of us does a ship job, they will pull you. They'll give you that whatever your pay check was for the episode, they'll pull you and they'll throw someone else in. So it's the like like that. I think people don't realize how nerve wracking. That first

one is. I've done it. I've done a table read for a decent sized movie that I'm not going to mention where casting was in the table read the casting director and I was like, this is weird. I don't know why you're here. And he came up to me and said, is everything okay? You're good? You feel loose? And I was like I was you. You started to to be like this, now I don't know what's going on. And there was an issue with my contract. There was like some the red tape thing that they couldn't figure

out between the studio and between my team. So the casting was there looking at me to watch my performance, to try and replate, to see if they in case they needed to replace me, in case we couldn't get to the end of that, which obviously I found out much later on whatever, And they said, do with the guy. It's fine, we you know, we've got the contract thing figured out. But he casting was literally there watching me, being like, Okay, well we can find someone else like

this if we need to. Can you imagine? So now for me, like it's the first table worried for me, I'm just I look around him, like, who's here? Who is there? Anyone else who looks like me? Is going to replace me? What else is happening? You know? Mental? But I'm glad you had that experience, Vanessa. I'm glad you know now. I mean, now I'm going to be worried, but I know, I'm sorry. I'm spread. This is the thing.

I'm a little less afraid, but I've made you a little more afraid the energy in the universe is still the same. I'm just holding this of it. It's selfish of me. I'm so sorry, you know what I do sometimes tend to I feel sometimes like I don't know if you guys have ever experienced this, but being on a set where somebody didn't want you, so either you know, if the network pushed for you or a director pushed for your show, when I pushed for you, but somebody

else didn't want you. So I sometimes do like to just like, you know what, do you leave it up to the casting guards, because sometimes you don't even want to be in a situation if people don't want you. It's just like you know what. I've been on sets where another actor didn't want me, and that's rough, like where the person you're working opposite wanted the other guy. And I also made me very aware of it, like made it very clear that that was the case, like

like meeting too. I met this person and they said this, and I was like, oh, thanks, well, fuck, do my best, Like I don't know what to say, which that's a rough one. I fortunately it was with no. I can't say that because it will give away it was what the job was, but that I was very fortunate to have other co stars who were very welcoming and very it made me feel like I was that I did deserve my place there, but this one person did not.

And that was pretty rough. That was a pretty rough time. Yeah, it is what it is again, like another little thing that I promised myself I would never do, even if it's the case, like you're not going to know, I'm never going to let you know that I preferred the other guy, you know. No, we do learn so much from each set and each episode and yeah, of how yeah,

how you would run your sets, And it's important. It's good to know because you Yeah, I think like especially I don't know if you have been feeling this way, but post pandemic, it just feels like, you know, can we all just be a little kinder, Like there's no

more space for sure? You know that toxic behavior that I'm sure we've all been around uncertainly, Yeah, yeah, And I think I think industry wide, folks have realized and been really confronted with how precious it is what we get to do and these these little families that we get to build, and and how much time we spend away from our families and away from our loved ones to to do this thing that we love and to

create these stories. And you want to do it with people that are you know, pleasant and professional and just fun to be around, you know, and good to work with and great collaborators, and not people who are going to make that process more difficult. Exactly exactly. I mean I think about that a lot because my daughter is still so young. It's like, well, if I'm going to be away for eight times a day, like, yeah, better

be worth it. Yeah, yeah, I have always said it, And there there are a couple of people that I would have to really think about working with again because I do this because I enjoy it first and foremost, Like that's the number one thing for me. Like I've always loved it. This has always been my passion. This has always made me smile doing this sort of thing. And as soon as it's not that it's taking away this little element of me that I worked so hard

to intrinsically put into my life. You know, it's taking away a little bit of that where it's like this isn't fun, I'm not enjoying doing this, and I worked so hard to be in this position to do this, and for whatever reason right now, I'm not enjoying it and that needs to change that. But I did hear something. I can't remember who it was. If when this episode airs, I will try, I'll do my best to find this quote.

UM say a man being interviewed, and the interviewer says, do you have because you know, world renowned for being emotionally very stable, like always happy and you know whatever? Um? And he says, do you have the capacity to be angry? And he says, of course, I have the capacity to be angry. I have the capacity to be anything. I just haven't given anyone that privilege. And I think that's the coolest thing, Like because it's not you don't get angry.

I mean, if you get angry at yourself. That happens to me all the time, where I leave the cupboard open and then I stand up and I hit my head and I'm like, God, so annoying, but it's my fault and I don't know what to do about it. But like giving someone else the ability to make you angry, it seems like a less evolved way of dealing with things to me, I think as as a human being. We've gotten to a stage where it's like that was really annoying. But you know what, I'm not gonna let

you damage my day. That's not you. That doesn't mean enough to me, Like you behave how you need to behave. The only time on sets where I've had an issue and I've had to say something is when it's impacting other people or other departments or whatever. Then I'm like this this we need to figure out a way of how to stop this from happening. But for me, I'm I've actually pride myself on it now and my therapist, between the two of us, we really figured it out.

But it's say, I think it's a smart way of thinking about it, and if it stops you from getting angry once then maybe it's a solid piece of advice. I've got to try and find that quote myself. You,

between you and Google, you can figure that. So yeah, I tend to save them so it's somewhere, but I'm to write it down, but truly, you know, it's it's funny how little bits of energy and every single person on set can affect the piece as a whole and the mood as a whole, and especially you know, someone like yourself and USA, who was so instrumental and so such a part of Shadow Hunters from its inception. We have you to thank for so much of what that

family became and what the show grew into. And so I you know, I don't think there's really a more perfect place to wrap this up other than saying thank you for for being our day and for being that person. That's so sweet. I mean, right back at you, guys. It was such a wonderful experience and and like I said, I had a lot to do with the tone that you said from day one, and um, yeah, what an adventure.

Who knew would be talking about it today? It's why I know how wonderful this is such a wonderful thing to be able to do and go back, and like people's lives have evolved so much as well, Like so many people have babies, so many shadows as people have babies. It's crazy, so many babies. But it's it's I know, that's what's really cool. It's really nice to see everyone like we're all adults now. It's crazy. I know, it's wild.

A lot can happen in a short time. Thank you so much for having me it was so lovely to see you both, and and thank you absolute pleasure, thank you for thank you for spending time with us. What else do you have coming up? Where can people find your next thing? So? Okay, well I just directed my first feature. It's called Midnight at the Paradise. We're submitting it to festivals so hopefully it gets to do tiff that's what I really love. Um, but we'll see. I

I don't know. So that was my big thing. And yeah, I'm on Nat Geo's The Hot Zone Anthrax which aired I guess in February now and then go back and find that it's good. It's Daniel A. Kim and Tony Goldwin. It's it's like a real it's it's limited to Daniel to talk about what a beautiful soul. Absolutely, I mean talk about people setting a lovely tone like Tony Goldwin and Daniel Day Kim. It doesn't get any It was a treat. It was. It was like one of those lovely,

lovely jobs. Yeah, and then I recur on Letter Kenny as well, which I don't know. It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, great, that's fabulous. Well, congratulations on everything, and and thanks for taking the time. Thank you you too, my pleasure, so nice to see you. Thanks so much. Let me know if you need anything. And that was so much fun. Return to the Shadows hosted an executive produced by me Dominic, Showood and Katherine McNamara. Our executive producer is Lingley. Our

senior producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. Our producer is Hannah Harris and Kristin Familiar and our intern is Sam Cats which no music by Alex Kinsey performed by Alex Kinsey and Katherine McNamara. M