Michael Reisz

get back almost throughout the entire pandemic. So I got back for the first time, like late February. Oh, brilliant, that's great. What you cat. I'm currently in London, but just because i'm here, I just finished up a comic con and I'm here visiting and fantastic. Yeah, hanging out for a bit. Well, if you're there for another week, my fiance will be there at the end of the week for a job. He's doing so well, Michael, thank you so much for joining us today, and returned to

the Shadows. We've been interviewing some really interesting creatives back and forth, and obviously we couldn't complete our season one section of the show without bringing on the one and only writer of the Malik episode and one of the most influential writers in season one. So thank you, thank you, and so nice to see you guys again. It's really great. Michael, tell us a little about who you are, how you been involved in shadow Hunters, just for the clamoring fans

out there. Sure, sure, sure, So I'm I was one of the executive producer's shadow Hunters and uh, you know, I've been writing for about twenty years now. But I started off as a lawyer here in Los Angeles, and then one thing led yeah, yeah that was raised to

be a lawyer, and I love law schools fantastic. Uh. One thing led to another uh, and through a longer story for another time or later in the podcast whatever, I ended up quitting law after a few years to do some recurring parts on Days of Our Lives when Marlina was possessed by the Devil, and so then after that it led to an I quit to be an actor. So I was an actor for about ten years. It did a lot of theater, uh, and a couple of shows. I was going to start trek Voyage or stuff like that.

Segued over to a big career in voiceover, which I was really grateful for. So I still like on some animated things that there's some characters that I did that I still get requested. So if my production schedule fits it, I do it. Yeah to that, and three started writing long story short, my friend ed Dector, who you guys know, wrote the pilot and then asked me to come on while he was doing the pilot. Uh, and I was on it from the inception and in fact I cast

you both. So there you go looking, there we go. We will talk about it later. So I am doing a little digging now. It's so funny when we do these things. The producers give us these amazing briefs from people that I've worked with for four years, and there are things on it that I'm like, I didn't know that. That's crazy. That's the real thing. And speaking of so you were in you were one of the voice actors in the Lord of the Rings the Fellowship of the

Ring game. I was, yeah, I'm legoless. I didn't tell you that a series of games was like me and my brother's all time favorite. We played it hours, hours and hours and hours and hours. Yeah, that's crazy. So that's my like and Soul Caliber as well was my stepfather's favorite game, so we used to play that together all the time too. So this is just like a crazy I'm like fully starstruck and like anything, the voice of one of my favorite games. Why, well, thank you

Now animation still is I mean, I absolutely adore it. Um. I don't know if you guys know anime a lot. I did a lot of anime stuff and so Digimon and uh, Naruto, stuff like that, Metropolis things like that. So it's been great, really really great group of people. So thanks talented individually. Because if I needed another reason to think you're the coolest personal lives, you were. Also this is like crazy, You're very kind. It was a while ago, but thank you. That's very nice to you

to say. Yeah. So then coming back to your journey as a writer, Um, what what sort of what was it like transitioning into becoming an actor and then a writer that You've had so many transitions in your life, so a lawyer to actor to writer, what how was that process for you? What you know, reinventing yourself so many times. It's interesting because as I look back on and I'm like, what was I thinking, But in the moment, doors just kind of I mean, you make doors open

for yourself. So I was. You know, it was hard work, but doors opened up for me at certain points and you just have to I had to trust that it would work out, and I jumped through it. I jumped through the door. So when I quit law, I was offered this recurring thing on Days of Our Lives where I couldn't reconcile the two anymore. And I remember going into my boss's office, my partner's office is saying I'm giving my notice and he said what law firm are you going to? And I said Days of our Lives

and he was like what. Um. So there there was that love acting love actors. Obviously, I love you guys seeing it from my end now knowing how hard it is and how vulnerable you guys have to make yourselves, and how open you always have to be, and how you're always putting yourself on the line through every audition. It takes a certain amount of strength. Uh. And that

was great for me for a while. UH. And but an opportunity through Warner Brothers opened up where I got into the Warner Brothers Drama Writers Workshop because I decided from my perspective when I was entering a set acting, I wanted to be involved in the entire creation of the world as opposed to, you know, creating my character and doing that which you guys do so beautifully. And so as I was looking around watching every body doing all their stuff, I was like, I want to do that.

And so I applied to the Warner Brothers Drama Writers Workshop and I wrote a couple of back then you what they wanted spec scripts. I wrote a couple of them, and I got in and then they ended up placing me on a few shows. So my first show was way back when. Remember seven episodes at last at Tarzan on the c W. I don't know if you guys, Yeah, One Tree Hill and Tarzan premiered at the same time,

and One Tree Hill lasted a lot longer. Yeah, but Eric Krikey was a fantastic boss and he went on to do amazing things obviously, so you know that was that was my first job, my first writing job. Then you just keep doing more jobs, and then I was on Boston Legal for a number of years, which was fantastic, and then I wrote some pilots fast forwarding a long way away. I now jumped back and forth between running

TV shows and and and features. So um the Truth or Dare I think they're doing it sequel to it. But I wrote Truth or Dare for Blumhouse and Universal. Yeah, that that did pretty well. I just turned in a new horror movie and I've gone doing two pilots now and two other little movies. So it's just just just

a nice, easy, little world boat. I'm just working on eighteen scripts or at the same time, it's it's hard to it's I mean, the overall answer to your question is what what I've discovered is like everybody has a unique voice offer no matter what they're doing, no matter what they're saying. Actors bring a unique perspective to the room. Writer's bring a unique perspective as they and to a

writer's room. Every element of my life from law when I was a banking and finance attorney so I know how to budget the shows, to acting so I hopefully could communicate well with you guys when you guys needed stuff, to writing. It all lends itself to running shows and so I kind of found my path and I'm really grateful, amazing. So what is there is there as far as writing goes, Is there a world in which you feel most comfortable? Is there is there an element that you feel that

you just mentioned that you're doing a few. You just you just turned in a horror and you're writing a horror. So I'm curious if that's where you feel most at home or if you would span out and do you know a rom com at some point like what is where's your heart at? Well? It's it's funny. Um, it depends on my mood. So writing horror. Writing horror is

very cathartic. But what I have found is that I like doing a lot of different things, and it really is based ultimately on the character and everything I do, I like to add a little Yeah, everything I do, I like to add a little humor to it. So even in the scariest things, you need to laugh to let that release. I like writing really hopefully strong female characters. Um is one of the things I really love writing.

So if if ever like my dream show would have been to right on the west wing, you know, and to right that would have been brilliant. You know that that's like my pinnacle of what I like, you know, of what I strive for. But you know, I'm writing, um, a rom com now TV movie. Uh, and so it's just it's really based on the characters and then who what world I want to live in for a while.

But I also really love scaring people, so yeah, yeah, and that it's arguably one of the hardest things to to write, I think is horror, as I mean, most of these genres are fairly saturated, but I think with horror, the whole the whole thing is like shock and if you know those shocks are coming, then it's not scared. It's not or not as scary. It's always scary for me. If I know me, it's always scary. Like it doesn't it doesn't matter what it is. I can barely watch

Scooby Doo. But it's it's not even a joke. It's like embarrassing. It's true. We've watched horror movies together. I'm just as bad. But that I'm excited to see what you come up with, because yeah, horrors. Horror is tricky, and especially for horror fans, they know what's coming for the most part because they've seen it all. So it's it takes a really ingenious writer to to overcome that. Well the well, thank you for the interesting thing. Um, you have to care about the characters, like you have

to care if someone's in danger. If I don't care about them, then I'm like, all right, so they die. Um, but you know what I mean. It's like, but you automatically, like I don't know if you guys ever worked with Lucy Hale or not. She was on a show I did years ago called Privileged, one of her first I was a mid level producer and she was brilliant on that, and then life kind of took us in the same direction and she ended up starring in Truth or Dare.

But you automatically love Lucy and what she brings to it, and so if something happens to her and the character she's building, then you care. The types of horror that I find really amazing right now, and I'm gonna Aaron Aaron, Oh my goodness. He did the Tony Collet horror movie. Why am I blanking right now? Oh? You know I'm talking abo, Yes, yeah, yeah, those types of those really excite me. That's what really scares me. Now, those are just genius, like and summer, why is my brain not working?

He did the follow Midsummer with that's it all. Yeah. I try and study all of his things just to see if I can keep learning. So yeah, that that that's kind of the horror journey. I suppose it's fun. Yeah, I think so too. And you know, with circling back to shadow Hunter as you were obviously so pivotal in that and and responsible for some of the most iconic moments in the show. So when you first heard about this story and this process these characters, did you do

any kind of research in particular or or what? What? What were you first taken with in this world? It's interesting I had seen the feature years or I had not read the books at that point. When Ed asked me to join, I read all the books and I just fell in love with the world. Um, and so

what I ended up. When you adapt books into a TV series, it gives you so many opportunities to expand on characters that had a narrow lane in the book just for space, but wonderful moments were teed off that you can say, oh, I can follow that, and uh, for for me, the Malick romance, I learned all about shipping through Shadow Hunters, the Malick romance. UM. Obviously spoke

to me deeply. Then. I think even today, I still get emails from like, the fans are so amazing, and I still get emails from some fans who help them come out to their parents. I get emails from some parents who watched the show with their kids and said, you help me understand my child more. And that's the power of what shadow Hunters did and what TV can do. And so I took it very very seriously. It was really important, and I think it came off pretty well. Yeah.

I think a few people liked it, you know, semi popular. So that's this is an interesting thing I think to touch on. And again, if any of it's you know too personally, you don't answer and just say about how much of your of like the elements of like yourself and your discovery, like how much of that plays into what you're writing, the characters you develop, where you take them, this, that and the other. It plays, It plays a huge thing. And I'm kind of when it comes to that stuff.

I'm an open book. I mean, I did a whole it gets better video for free form through shadowing yourself. I'm out there. So yeah, those stories, I mean, the best experiences I have in writing is when I can take the material and also infuse personal experiences that a hope universal, you know, for for the scripts and just that. There's moments in the Malik journey um with Visa VI, the family relationships, the I came out later in life, I was engaged to a wonderful woman and then later

now I'm engaged to an amazing guy. Um, you know, learning about yourself and living authentically and like all those moments I think really grounded in a personal residence that then extends to the audience. If if you believe in you're moved by it, then you hopefully will move other people, uh and speak to them. Yeah, that's lovely man. I.

We we've spoken about that episode in particular. It's tricky because we're doing the rewatch somewhat chronologically, so we get too elements and we're like, oh, we want to talk about this. We're like, funk, we can't, yeah, because we've got we haven't reached the episodes. But we did. We

did just speak about the Malik episode. We record at that episode, which is amazing, and what what we talked about was there are so many elements in it that had to come together to make this this like really beautifully profound peace, from Matt and Harry's acting to the directing, to like putting together the set design, to the writing, and I think because each of those people had a fairly substantial chunk of their heart in it. Really, it really was this like amazing, amazing thing to be a

part of. So, you know, thank you for a little chunk of your heart and that thank you. I remember you guys did a beautiful job in the episode as well. I mean, you know, just the looks everybody shot each other. I remember a particular moment where where YouTube connected with a look as the vows were about to be expressed, and I think, uh, there was an incredibly powerful moment.

But I mean even down to like every department did really beautiful work and we were all, you know, scrambling that week to make sure we could get everything in there.

I remember running. I was personally running down a road in the rain, trying to grab it like somebody who thought they were like let go for the day, and then they had to come back and I was just like, no, we need to shoot you again, you know, And it's like raining and I'm soaking, and then there's a I believe cat you were a beautiful green dress and we had to figure out like what jewels were there, and you know, where it was cut and what we like

even the wardrobe department microphone on oh good lord. Yeah, and Dom, you're suiting the whole thing everything hair Dom, the hair, Don's hair. Let's don't even talk about it. We literally just spoke to Ran Reid, who is the designer. We like just finished talking to yeah today and like

that was the whole thing. Because then I think the note season one was like we don't want to do we did the fight scene in the in the pandemonium and they like the guys on top one, we don't Dom's hair in his face ever, Like what the fund do you mean we're doing like the martial arts based show. Like, so yeah, that was There's a lot of navigating even behind the scenes that you guys don't even see, so right, lots of lots of meetings before we even start shooting exactly.

So I will let me ask you if we're going back to like you know, meetings pre pre the fact um. What was casting like, like can I tell us and then both Now you're an e P so you're looking at like potentially the cellibility of people, you know, some of the people who are going to be able to hold these characters for a very long period of time.

And then also as a writer, you've already put your heart and soul into these characters, you know, developing them as they are, so you have sort of you almost have two voices in that room, right, Yeah, Well, it's certain. Dominant've spoken a great deal about our perspective on the casting process, and we've heard from some of the other actors, but we haven't had a chance yet to hear from someone on your side of the table. I want to hear your perspective. Well, I just remember looking to a wall.

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it's casting a pilot is a marathon, you know. I actually remember seeing both of your auditions and it was very nice and he he sort of put me kind of in charge of casting. I mean in charge of the wrong word, but because it wasn't because I was an actor and then uh the other executive producer of it. I was in the process from the whole time. So Cat, I remember you read our first week I think, and you were on another show where your hair was super blonde as in

the Fosters. That's right, you're on You're on Peter Show. And I remember saying to Peter, can we can we get her out? You know, like we were chatting even and Peter's an old little friend of mine. But here's the here's a small little thing, one of the things that we like. You have to keep looking and keep looking, and dumb, I gotta start about you too. Keep looking and keep looking, keep looking. And it was does she have red hair? And like or would she mind dying

her hair red? And that was the stumbling block for a moment, and I'm like, of course she will, let's ask her, let's you know what I mean, And then the question and then ultimately it came back at the very end. We went through like hundreds and hundreds of people and you were always in there, and then hundreds and hundreds of people and then no one compared, and then it was sort of like, wait a minute, why

don't we just ask her? And I think your hair is naturally red, isn't it like you have your auburn the red hair and was actually strawberry blonde? Yeah, We're like, oh so, and I'm color blind, so I can't see red, but you know what, so so even those little things like you spoke to us of that and then dumb.

I remember you came in. I remember sitting in the room and I'm next to d and when I was an act of the worst thing you could hear, I thought was you walk in, you do one read and you go, hey, thanks for coming in, and then you leave and your your soul just spills out of you and you're like what just happened? And I remember you walked in and I was like, oh, that's him. I just remember seeing it. And then you read and I look at Allison and oh, yeah, that's him, and then

ed ed who liked you? He wasn't not sure. It was just there's he had to do so many different things, you know that he was just going to make the decision later. But you got the hey, thanks for coming in after one without any adjustments. And I was like, he's gonna call Rob Marsala and then Rob the new one and and I'm friends with Rob, and what am I gonna doo? And I was like, given, like, and so you left and I saw your face and I just wanted to say, don't worry, don't worry and then

at the end we all had a conversation. I think we played your Taylor Swift video and it's like that's the guy and so then it kind of it went from there. But it's like the soul crushing like thanks

for coming in things. It's so what you guys have to go because that man, that's the conversation you have off to its like you know, as you say, Rob Masala is my yeah, my very talented manager, um, And that's the conversation you call them afterwards and you know, you decompress and you go, yeah, this is how how it went whatever. And if you say those words, you know, to your manager, you go, oh, I got the thanks for coming in. Both of you collectively go well, we're

not getting this one. Like that's just you know, you know that that's the response. So that is yeah, you're absolutely right. You walk out of those rooms like damn it. But the thing is the I guess the fact toy to take away is, um, that's not always a bad thing. Sometimes you'll come into a room and they'll just be

this vibe. You go, oh, yeah, that's the person, and then they read and they read really well and you're like yeah, I don't need to see anymore, and then like if I need to see more or for the teams that's in the callback, and then the next callback, and then the studio test, and then I remember walking into free Form where all you guys are nervously sitting in the lobby, you know, and we're all having you sign your contract, and I'm like, love, yeah, I only

tested for one thing in my entire life when I was an actor, and you guys go through this all the time. So I'm like, they're old hats. But it's like, you know, interestingly, it's not really a thing anymore. Like it's I've done probably in the last like four years, I've done like two face to face tests because it's now all digital. They just send you tapes over. It's

all done. That whole stress of like sitting in a essentially like a theater with the stands full of like the execut Disney, then the execuit Constantine and the show executs and the writers and g and all of you guys, and you just sat there like shipping yourself, hoping you don't like mess something up. That's kind of gone now that stresses it alleviated with you. I will say, it's really grateful for for Walker. I had the new Walker

independent pilot, I just did. I had to test on Zoom and do chemistry reads on Zoom, so it was that same and I I actually would rather be in person because doing that on Zoom, you're in You're in your house, and so it's already kind of this weird thing and it's it's yeah, it just pulls you out entire and you don't have the same kind of the same environmental and having trying to have chemistry with your love interest, and it's just it's so hard even just

auditioning from your home, when you're trying to be a character, separating yourself from where you are in real life. I imagine that's crazy. Heart. So that's tricky. Once you sort of start developing relationships in this, you see it more and more, we're like, oh, I know someone in this room like this, so this feels a lot safer, just even if it doesn't go my way, Like at least I know this person is kind of in my corner um and and sort of it seems like we had

that person in you. We just didn't know right away, but we did have that person, and you sort of behind the behind the scenes fighting our corner, which is it's such a lovely thing. And we've told I think both Cat and I have told those stories that you just told on the podcast talking about you. Excited to have you on because they're like, yeah, Michael really was in our our corner sort of throughout and we used you.

I remember a bunch of times using you in season one is like the guy I could really come and talk to as the as the confident of like I don't get this, Like can you please talk me through this? You know what I mean? Like, and you did, like you understood like talking to us, which was which was really special. It's always nice to have a sounding board. Oh yeah, Well, you guys are putting your faces. Your

likeness is your whole being out there. You know. I get to be behind the computer or video village sort of telling people what to do, but you guys are out there. So the more comfortable and the more the saferest space that you can provide an actor, I think, the better performance you're going to get ultimately, you know. And I think what you write me rose in everything you're writing from here east in number seven, I don't care. I just want to work. Yeah, I love that. I

would love to work with you guys as well. That begs an interesting question. So when you're writing something and whether it's on Shadow Hunters or something else, did did anyone ever interpret something you wrote or or create the performance of it in a way that surprised you or kind of caught you off guard or something you didn't expect. It's interesting, Yeah, yeah, and that's the joy of writing. Like I'll have one way, like in my head as I'm typing it up and I sort of acted out

with my dog as I wander around the house. We pay But then that's the joy of what we do. Everybody brings their own thing to it, and then you're like, oh, I didn't think of it in that way, and that's even better. You know, there's a there's like when I was writing Boston Legal, Um, James Spader can spin a closing argument like nobody can spend a closing argument like the and Mary McCormack on in Plane site would take

material and you guys too. I mean, I'm just I don't want to embarrass you because you're here, but like you know, can take can take material and just elevated you guys did beautiful work as well, Like there were moments where it's the alchemy of actors spending years together that then you become the character so that it's not just me typing it and telling you what to say. It's hey, I've been being this person for the past three years. I don't think this person would do this.

And then a conversation happens, and then if one thing needs to happen because the story needs to move forward, that conversation helps make it occur in a more organic way. Well, and that's something I always was so grateful for. With the Shadow Hunters writer's room is that, and with our producers is that if you know, as Dom and I, we we cared so much about these characters and still do clearly, and if we had a question or a thought or something we didn't understand, you were actually open

to it. You didn't just listen to us and go okay, go off and do your job. You you actually took it into consideration and would either tell us, oh, no, this has to happen, but here's why, or there was a discussion and a conversation and it ultimately I think led to a deeper, richer story. For all of the characters. Yeah, that's the only way I like to work. I have.

I have a policy now for the rest of my career that I'm not going to work with people I don't like, and I'm not going to work with people that aren't collaborative. Like it's a nice people and professional people, which is most people you know, like I think you're working in which yeah, I also think that should be. That should just be the case with any career. Like there are times when you're forced you have no choice,

like you work with people that you dislike. But if you can avoid that in the future, why wouldn't you, like, why would you put yourself back in that situation? It makes perfect sense to me, and I think that's a wonderful rule to have. So listeners, Michael Reitz is spinning gold. It's worth taking a note on that one. I think I gotta say as well, dude, like you have an aged you, it's like seven years your face, you look amazing. Well, thank you? Does it deal with the devil? What happened?

There's a painting in the in my attic that keeps getting older. Yeah, yeah, no, well thank you. But you know, life is good, you know, I'm getting married in October. Like, I'm happy my parents, Thank you, Mom and pop. You know, I live fifteen minutes away from them, and dad's in his nineties and moms in her eighties. That's amazing. They're all excited to get gussied up and come to the wedding. So it's it's gonna be great. It's it's it's we're

getting married because we want to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, what a wonderful Again, another wonderful message to get out there. What is what is wedding planning? Like, I'm now sort of approaching that age that like I was like what no, no, no, no, hello listening being like wait a minute. I was like I was about to say something that would have to be edited. Never mind, hold on, let me gather myself. Okay, back to wedding planning. It's fun. It's fun. You know.

My my fiance is an international event planner, so if he kind of knows what he's doing and stuff like that. But that's why it's fun, I'm sure. Yeah. And it's like we're planning this thing together where our families are going to come together and it's just gonna be a big celebration. Amazing. How did you guys meet uh, okay

Cupid one of those online things? Oh where Yeah, I'm just about to go to one of my best friend's wedding, UM and they met on Tynda, like one of the very few like that where the stars just aligned that time, and they did so massively in love and I can't imagine either one of them without the other one, you know. Yeah, we sort of looked at We sort of looked at it. I guess I didn't add for okay Cupid. Are they still around? We sort of looked at it. No, I

didn't do an ad for it. No, no, no, I think, Oh I see we now accidentally didn't add by plugging them on your thing. Bless you can? Yeah, I supposed to anyway. I just want to say bless you. Anyway,

we didn't know. My girlfriend and I just had a very similar like during the quarantine, we were doing like an online sort of games group thing that's part of this girl in one of her little squares the way you're seeing us now, like in one of those little squares, and I was like, she is super cute, but you know, you get that sense like she has a boyfriend. I can see in her eyes. She has a boyfriend. Not ask the question, but she has a boyfriend. And then I saw her face on one of the dating apps

and I was like, huh, question mark. So I just I sent her a text and the rest is kind of I didn't even send her a text. I think I like super liked her. It showed how keen I was at that moment. I was like, I like, paid money is super like this. I don't know what's super liking is what's super liking. It's like it's the equivalent on these like dating swipe, where like instead of just swiping, you can like super swipe essentially like and it shows

them that I'm super interested. I came in strong, Michael, I came in super. Yeah, that's how she likes to put it, for sure. Yeah, her and her parents like to call me that. And what about you? Um, yeah, I'm you didn't expect it to go this way, didn't YE know? I didn't know. I didn't, but but yeah, I'm I'm aside from work, I'm really happy. I'm in a lovely dating a lovely guy, and it's, uh, it's

really fantastic. I know, I haven't even talked to me about this yet, Oh my god, I'm sorry if any of this is none of my business, I just feel like, no, it's great, it's funny. It's funny because looking back on Shadow Hunters and like all the relationships that developed, and you know, it really taught us a lot about relationships.

And I think the pandemic too, because my my boyfriend and I met during the pandemic and it's one of those things where you just you meet the right person, and pandemic kind of showed us how important those human connections are and how important it is to just focus on life as well as work, which is something I never really did well, you know what, because and I you know, I find this in a lot of actors and maybe you guys can tell me. It's all consuming at some point in in a lot of ways where

you're selling yourself, like you're you're creating this business. You're selling a product. The product is you, and you're trying to make that product better and better and better. And there's so many elements to that, both the acting and then you get to a certain point where you have to do the publicity and this, and then unfortunately, the loss of a certain sense of privacy where that also

then starts invading things. Finding that balance. It's really important, I think to always say I'm really fortunate and I really love what I do professionally, but the other cup has to be full or else things are just gonna get out of whack. You know the high and I'm so glad had to hear you both are navigating that beautifully. It's really really nice to see I knew as well. Man. Honestly,

it's made my heart feel really full. Speaking of difficulties balancing, um, was there were there episodes or either in Shadows or in anything? Is there anything that you found particularly difficult to write? Is there anything you sat down and got the block for a second you're like, wow, I really don't know. Every writer always faces blocks, and so yeah, even on Shadowmakers, uh your face block. So I guess

two things. One, when I get writer's block, sometimes you have to step away from your computer and then think, Okay, what do these characters really want and what do I want to say with this? And then I do in this new house we built that there's in all of my houses, I've kind of have this path from my computer down the hall through a kitchen or whatever. It's like I can walk in a circle and my dog always like, I start pacing around the house and my

dog always follows me. And then when I pray, I run to the computer and my dog jumps on her chair and I start typing again. And so usually if I get a block, I'll go to what what what's this character about? Like what is this character feeling at this moment? Because usually I get a block. Happens when I just don't know what's happening next, like what this character wants. I'm just trying to write to a result

as opposed to say, okay, what would really happen? And then usually it sorts itself out after hitting your head against the wall for a while. Production wise, executive producing a show, you're juggling a lot of things, and so there's scripture writing, scripture shooting, scripture and post on and they're all happening at the same time, and you all

have to keep it on budget. And I'm sure you all remember those shooting days where at the end of the days you have the eight two producers huddling in a video village going we gotta we gotta gotta move on, move on, Move on. It's like you know, and it's like one more tape, no, you know, being able to navigate around certain things, like you write big battle scene and then it ends up being three people fighting in

an alley, you know, because of production. But there are ways to make it work, you know, there are ways to make it work that you have to always recognize. And it's it's one of the things that has helped me, I guess is there's a studio and there's people giving you a lot of money every episode to make a movie. They're they're giving you money and you have to return

their investment, you know, on budget and on time. And so if something is going to go skyrocketing over budget, you have to find a way to rewrite it so that your intent can come around, can come across, while still recognizing the business aspect of this, because it's not just endless money being thrown at something that's that's those are the because that's such as that's such an interesting sort of parallel that you you in particular, is very few people that were going to get on this show

that have this like creative business in parallel at all times, you know. Um So it's such an interesting thing to hear that like having to balance the like what of my creative side do I sacrifice to make sure that the whole thing gets done? But then one am I unwilling to sacrifice to for the money or whatever it is? You know, it's such a tricky Yeah, I can do. Yeah,

it's not. It's not always even a sacrifice. It's like, Okay, how can we alter it so that we can still get everything emotionally that we want um while being able to pay for it? You know right that there's just hard realities to to show running and producing that you want to give you guys the best material to perform um. Well, at the same time you're having any two people yelling at you, and you're getting ninety thousand texts in video village saying pull it, move on, and you're like, yeah,

there's always a couple of producers that turn up. The line producer is normally one. If the line producer turn up to set at the end of the day, you're like, oh,

we're running late and we need to get going. But that's when the that I think Shadow Hunters became such a beautiful show as that, Yeah, it's with any TV show, we had limited resources but all of our departments, as you said, Michael, really came together and really put their all and all of their passion into getting creative and working together and sharing those resources to figure out, Okay, how can we all help each other to create a cohesive world. And you particularly saw it, I think one

of the first times it takes. You know, it takes a few episodes for a show to gel and figure things out, but the Malik episode in in season one is really where all of those elements meshed in such a way. It really was. I got two stories on them, two behind the scenes stories on the Mountain tell Us tell us spell It. One. One is you two guys like I watched you both when you weren't being shot.

I've been on shows where the lead actors would shoot their stuff and not stay for coverage of their partners. They would not you guys. There's there's very two very specific moment said I don't even know who you were rehearsing, but I remember the guest stars that you guys were working with wanted to run their lines and you both pulled them aside off to the side, and you just said, that's remand and I was like, we've got really quality leads who are in this to help the overall show.

It's not let me storm back to my trailer and lock the door. It's you know, you guys always I always watched everybody, um. And you guys always always were generous with your time, especially with the guest actors who came in. We both worked with people and said hey, if you need more time, um, and you always stayed for coverage. It was great. And then in the actual wedding, I just remember we were looking at it and then

and and and it's Stephanie, right, Stephanie was the actress. Yeah, she's wonderful and she uh and and we were like, okay, how's this gonna look. We were setting it up and literally like two minutes before we were shooting, We're like, wait a minute, she's not holding flowers, like she has nothing in her hands. She's walking it. She's like what do I do with my hands that We're like, oh geez, what do I remember running through the whole building like

who's got flowers? And then quickly perhaps grabbed the red flowers and like hey, look beautiful. Fine, and the said just like and then she walked out and it was gorgeous. So those flowers, like nineties seconds beforehand weren't there, and so we just threw the flowers and I'm like, hold on, that's what you do with you that's amazing. And she did a beautiful job. She really did a beautiful job.

Amazing talking about that the other day, we had so many guest stars who came on and just absolutely smash it and just committed to the world as much as we did. But you know, there's dom and I have been that guest star on set so many times and and I know, I mean, I'm sure I can speak for you on this, tom but we want to be

that person we want to foster. We want to be the leads that we wanted or had on those shows, and not only lead, but host these people and make them You're comfortable, because that's when people will do their best work. That's a great way putting it. And you did the Meryl Streep thing, isn't it? Is it Meryl Streep or Hell of Mirro And I can't remember which one.

They said they better off camera. They make an intentional choice to be a hundred and ten percent off camera because the scene, like you don't look good in a scene because of just you. You look good in a scene because you're both good because the scene looks good. You know, the James Bond thing of like who is your favorite James Bond? I think the more interesting question is who is your favorite villain? Because your favorite James Bond was only James Bond against a villain, you know

what I mean. You have to have the two to play with. So I I know, for myself and Cat and many of the actors that I've worked with my career foster a similar sort of ethos um the like and the reality is, you know, between you, me and the pets and everyone else listening, they pay us a fortune to do this. Like for the concept of people being selfish with their time doesn't make any sense to me. Like, it's such a it's such a silly thing to do.

I've had circumstances where actors actors have not been you guys, where the lead actor would mock people and mock the crew and yeah, and and finally I just stepped in and I said, we're cutting the scene. And the actor was like, what are you talking about? And I said, I'm rewriting it. You're done for the day. They were like, wow,

So that's an interesting question. You know, the three of us all having worked with these people, these kinds of people in the past, Like, at what point you you have sort of a somewhat special power in that you are the EP that has the responsibility of being able to say no, no, unacceptable, and also the writer with the responsibility of being like, I can actually change this, like I can actually write this out right now. You pull the card very rarely, and you have to get

approvals by lots of people. So I didn't just willing really just go and do that because it impacts a lot of things. Yeah, but by the time it gets to that point, an individual will an individual's behavior will be known. And so it's an advice to anybody entering a set. Everybody watches, everybody knows, and everybody, even up to the network executives, knows what's happening on a set. So just play nights and be professional. Everybody's working. The

crew works the hardest. They're carrying heavy, heavy things, and for someone to come in and start not acting professionally around people who are breaking their backs to make them look good, that really rubs me wrong. You know, it's just it's not right. I think as well like it as are as the producing side of it. And I've not done this yet, but I think I think anyone doing anything needs to be given at least one opportunity

to rectify their behavior. You need to be told this sucks, you're making people uncomfortable, this is happening, You've made a mistake, whatever it is. I'm making you aware that this is not acceptable. This, this is not how we do things here. And then fingers crossed, that person changes and you're like, oh yeah, okay, great cool, and then it's you know,

then it's a better environment for everybody. The other side of that is it doesn't change, or you know, you're told where to go whatever it is, and then you're like, well, it's a change needs to be made somewhere. And like if you're the one breaking people's bags, So you never want to write someone off a show, you never want to.

You always want to give people the opportunity. Like I always find it funny like actors on magic shows that have supernatural magic things going on, they don't realize who spells cast You can be turned into a net, but no one wants to do that. But I also imagined from an actor's perspective, and you guys tell me, you guys are also in a bubble sometimes, and so like I go back and forth from Toronto to Los Angeles,

and you guys are living in this bubble. So sometimes I wonder if, like what's going on in that bubble where you're wondering what's going on in l A. And like, the communication has to be constant, I think for it to really gel I agree. But then also the other side of it as well, where it's like I couldn't imagine being a writer with a difficult actor who's constantly calling I don't like this, I want this change, blah

blah blah. There's that balance of communication where it's like I know, for me, the things that I tend to, the things that I tend to call up about, and I always I talk to myself about it just the first sign of madness. That's but like, is this a hill I'm willing to die on? Like is this something that I believe in enough to actually cause someone else more work? Because that's what it's going to do at

the end of the day. That's why I think Shadow Hunters did work so well is because we figured out you all left your doors open for us to feel comfortable enough too. I mean, this was, you know, my first big lead job and and my first job where I had any semblance of place to say anything about the words on the page and the character I was playing, and the fact that you made it such a comfortable space too, to take that creative authority and go, hey,

you have the full story. But on boots on the ground, there's a couple of things that you know, I need more information or this doesn't necessarily make sense, or I just and and just being able to have a conversation, and a lot of people you know, in any industry don't realize that just communication and having a conversation about something is the easiest way to just make everything easy.

And yeah, from both sides, being heard is such a gift. Yeah, that's and that's that's what I was going to say, is one of the most important things, Like everybody needs to be heard and sometimes you're not. I was going to get the answer, what but what I would hopefully do. And I don't know if I ever did this to

you guys. I think I did um too. That's like the wrong way of saying I would say like, I would hear you out and then if like say it was super stressful, they had try and smile and uh and then I and then I would saying like, if there's different ways you want to say something like we need to get one as written and then if there's time, let's play with it. Is usually because like we would have a conversation about it, and I would hear you

like and understand where you're coming from. I also understand what, like whether it was network notes that we have to respond to. So there's so many different levels that we don't have power to change, like they needed that. Like it's this like show running. You're sort of in the middle and then you're navigating making sure everything happens, and it's a wonderful job, but it's like and so usually I'll be like, all right, let's make sure we get one as written and then let's play with it if

there's time, you know. And that's kind of how I navigate that, which is small. If it's done well you if it's done, I'll usually be like, okay, and then we'll just do it how I want to do. We've definitely had that conversation. Remember I felt so bad there was one time where I was teasing you, I'm not even gonna go into it, and then I was like, oh no, that I hurt his feelings. And then you pulled one on me because you pretended you were upset. Oh yeah. We we did have that relationship and we

we we really did. We did play with each other quite a lot, which is nice. It's it's such a British thing, which is it's a difficult thing for me to navigate when I especially when I work in the States or with Americans, Like I'll say stuff, and I'll play and I'll toy with people, and then every now and then I get that American or a reaction from an American that's like and I'm like, oh ship, that

was it. That was the line. Yeah, And with with Cat, like in The Best Boss Boy, I always viewed you as sort of like like my little sister that I need to protect because you're carrying this big burden and so to the extent that it could be lightened or at least you know what I mean, because a lot of times I think clear and wonderful things to do. But you know, in the whole Abbot and Casello of it, you had to be the straight person, you know, where

everybody else is going wild. And then it's like I'm Clary, I'm it's like you had a ton of like really solid important things to do that we all appreciate it obviously as did you don't, but it's like, you know, you're going through this journey of a girl who didn't know her past or her future, and you're you know,

we're following your journey. Um, you were like the spine that kind of had to be like, Okay, I'm not always getting the wild, wacky things to do, but you know, yeah, like you get like you carry that beautiful thank you well. And to that point, I never felt stagnant as a character, not once in the entire series, and that that's always a gift when you're you know, as dumb can attest to working on a series for years, it can be you don't always necessarily see the character growth that you

want to. And with Shadow Hunters, I always felt that and and especially in the lovely metaphor you just put forth always feeling like you can trust your writers and your producers and going I think we've got this or you know, I know In in episode twelve, in Clary that Clarie and Lydia has seen. We had no time.

It was the end of a long day and we were but we just did the rewatch of this episode and I remember being so hopeful that we got what we needed and we did because the crew came together and did it, and you were able to and our director and everyone else kind of came to James. James didn't great. It was yeah, yeah, really, your memory is pretty impeccable. It was seven years ago and you've done so much since then. This is really quite as I'm

I'm I'm my age. I feel the age in my joints. Right. No, No, that was that was That was a really good experience. And what when we didn't we stay? Like where did we stay? Oh? You guys stayed in different place. There was Blue Jay Stadium. Yeah, we that area though we were, we didn't move there from there For all that, I love my life here because I'm based here in my home.

You know, acting is exciting, and it's like it takes a certain strength of character to be a journeyman actor and say hey, I'm going to lift up my life and move it to Toronto for four years. I'm going to move it to London. I'm going to move it to Hill Like, how is that? Like? For you? It's nuts, dude,

It's really nuts. And the tricky thing for me is like that period in between, you know, your contractual obligations, so that you whatever it is from the last day filming, six months, twelve months, whatever it is, Like I don't know. I don't know if I'm going back, So we do you keep apartments? Is it cheaper to get rid of the apartment? Like do I send myself back to where

I'm going? Like, we don't know. And even shadow ins is like we would we we'd started seeing the reaction before it it had adds, so we we sort of somewhat new, like people are excit id about this, really excited about it, but it was still six months. We didn't know for six months and during that time and then contractually you're not allowed to do other things and whatever, and you're just like in this I'm in it now with with partner track, You're just in this holding pattern

where it's like what do we do? Like what is that you know? So that's it's tricky. But again, when you're when you're lucky enough that something goes on we were on this for four years. When you're lucky enough that that's the case, you know, picking up your suitcases and moving into a spot, it does become like Emeralds said it the best the other day when we were talking to her. She said, it becomes a home away from home. And it does you make it like your

little home away from home. Even my trailer was like by the end, it was and like out like photos up by the end. But it's so yeah. But it's nice because when you're working with such a great group of people, both in the writer's room and on set, you don't feel as alone. And we're kind of this you know, traveling circus. We're we're kind of the you know, the modern nomads of a world that can kind of just pick up and go all right, I'm gonna just

bloom more. I'm planted here and use my off time to care to see the people that I love that I don't get to see. And you kind of learned to prioritize in that way. But the Station eleven, yeah, I mean yeah, it forces you to live in the present and live in the moment as much as you possibly can. I'm so happy Amon's working she's written with my friend Gloria, and I'm like, it's just such a lovely show. I'm so happy for her. Yeah, amazing, So

if you talk to her, definitely. So when when we did Shadow, and says we we when Cat and I were made aware of it, it was two series. It was straight to series already, so we knew that it was thirteen episodes they're going to do, which is pretty uncommon for a TV show for them to put, you know, especially episodes worth of money and something before it's whatever. So when you joined was what did what information did

you know and what was the process through there? Did you still have to write a pilot and get that approved or was it you know that you were writing thirteen episodes of story. I didn't write the pilot. A doctor wrote the pilot, right, came on after when he was staffing up. Yeah, so Ed and I think Pete

guys remember Pete? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was Yeah, he was as assistant at the time, and then he's going into an amazing right, and I just went to his way, I know, congratate he like, they had to write the pilot and then from what I understand, get it approved, signed off on and then I think they internationally financed.

I'm not quite sure how it worked. It was one of the first models where they did it that way and then took the package to free Form, I believe, but they'd be lanced that much better than I could. So when I when I came on, I knew they were going to be thirteen episodes for the first season. So you, yeah, you were with us, Because that's the interesting thing. I suppose. The follow up question to that is, I get asked quite a lot, do you prefer doing

movies or TV? Both have elements that I love, and both have elements that are difficult, And the main one is when you're doing TV, you never you don't know the full story arc of this character ever at any point. Really, if you're lucky enough to get thirteen episodes, you might know the rough like outline of what happens in those thirteen, but you don't know season two, you don't know season three.

And with a movie, safe for sort of alterations or additions, you kind of know this arc and you can plan for this this arc. So you, guys, when you were in the writing room, when you were producing, you were setting it up like a thirteen episode sort of movie, like you knew the button ends of what was going

to happen. That's awesome. Usually, when you're going into a new season at a TV show, whether it's a season two or three, whatever are, you're pitching out your first you need to present sort of like the art Clary will start here. By episode three or four, you'll kind of go through this or go here, and by the end of season one, our cliffhanger will have Clary doing this.

We'll do that through each character and so, and then the network gives you lats and lights and lots to know the studio getting and you sort of negotiate and you navigate and they say, okay, go to script on those. And so we kind of had an idea, but you know, there were times that fruitful conversations were had where there were differences of opinion, I believe, where they were trying to figure out should we end the season on this

or should we have it be mid season? But we've already written like thirteen episodes, so they're like, can you condense those thirteen into six and then just write six more? We're like, well, and then then no, wait to go back and like so there was a lot of and it's all done with the best of intentions. I think people are trying to figure out the writer's room craziness is before things start shooting, when you're trying to navigate all that stuff. So that's where the hurricane hits the

writer's room a lot of the times. It so interesting, do you is that when you prefer Do you prefer writing the pilot and then being able to slowly sit into it or do you prefer having the block of everything and knowing this story? Well, I think like when I pitch out pilots, I don't pitch out a pilot without knowing what I want the entire season to be, and then and then themes for like two or three. But but that will always alter. I mean, once it takes on a life of its own, then things shift

and change and you bob and weave. But like, um, you kind of have to know where things are going or where you hope to take them, because otherwise you're

just writing the movie. I've been in circumstances where early in my career, staffed on shows where the pilot was really good and they're like, I don't know what happens, and then you're like, uh, because you need to you need to know where you're hoping to go, and then if it doesn't work, then through that you figure out what does work to our process when we're getting the scripts, because obviously we don't know the full character arc when we're doing a TV show, and we'll we'll sort of

have an idea of where we think it's going based on our conversations with the producers and the writers and the scripts that we have, but then inevitably you get a script and you go, oh, I wish I would have known that three episodes ago. Okay, let me see how I can navigate and sort of readjust what I'm doing to fit this. And it's that's why I love TV, because it's a fun game you get to play, as it were. Well, the cool thing about that is like, like, let's say you do get a scripture, like, hey, I

didn't know that would happen. We probably didn't know that would happen. But all the amazing writers that you assemble pull from their lives and you're you're in the writers from telling stories about your life, and like, oh, that reminds me of when this happened to me and Baha and you're like, holy cow, can we work that into the script, And then a new thing happens to Clary, you know what I mean. Yeah, that's I mean TV.

I like the regularity of TV quite frankly, like um, I would say, I prefer well, I like them both. I think I prefer TV simply because in the past, at least historically, writers have been in charge of television. Then you become the exact producers and the showrunners, whereas in film. I love the experience as well, but you sort of hand it off and you're like, all right, I hope it turns out okay, And I've been fortunate

in that respect. But you know, yeah, and it's nice to be able to build that, you know, for people who love stories as much as we do. To be able to build that longevity and keep building upon and you know, creating depth in these characters that you live with for thirty years. Yeah, and also held having a job for a longer period of time for me is great.

I love that, Yeah, seriously, it's Yeah. The hardest thing for me was, like, you go from the steady gig as a lawyer with a family that wants you to have a steady gig to the being comfortable with the unknown, which is a constant struggle for me. You know, I've been doing this for twenty years, and I've been making my living at it for twenty years, and I've been very lucky and grateful, and I still go, Okay, I just turned that in what's next. Oh my god, Oh

my god, oh my god. Then the next thing happens. Yeah, but it's like that internal panic where you're like, Okay, no, things are fine, And I think all of you guys are working with friends of mine, Like is Anna Freaky involved in walk Around? Yeah? She involved in. Yeah, she's amazing. She She and I were on Privilege together under Rena

Ma Moon and she's and is brilliant. Um and um you you did City of Angels right, the Kendall Kendall Nichols I think was your She was your a D, one of your a D Yeah, yes, yeah, And she's a dear, dear friend of ours. She's awesome. So I love. I love when all of my friends work with all of my friends and everybody gets to know each other.

It's like that's the best part about this where you go through for twenty years and like everybody crosses and everybody gets to know each other, and hopefully the good people find each other, you know what I mean. And that's lovely. I think that's great. So, you know, I'm really grateful that our paths crossed, and let's hope it's not the as time. They will again. They will again.

In fact, I'll be honest. One of my my fiance's favorite channels is Hallmark and apparently there's a Hallmark movie that he's like, cats, Cats movie, Let's watch it again. So I think we're watching it this week. Let me know what you think. It's It's a lot of fun. It's a really sweet movie. Yeah. Yeah, so that's that's that's like our nightcap. That's great. Actually, don't think there's

a better way to draw this to an end. What a wonderful We don't want to take up any more of your time, and what a wonderful way to to round this out. Michael, has been such a joy to talk to you again. Thank you so much, Thank you for so proud of you guys. Thanks for having me. This has been great. Bat Return to the Shadows is hosted and executive produced by Katheryn McNamara and Dominic Sherwood.

Our executive producer is Langley. Our senior producers are Liz Hayes and dar Go Autopia, and our producers are Hannah Harris and Kristin Vermeilia. Original music by Alex Kinsey and performed by Alex Kinsey and Kathryn McNamara. H