J. Miles Dale

the greatest acting of all. Yeah, because you stayed in character all day and you guys never invited me to socialize and party, so I never were found out, like the smoking, drinking, dumb with the with the with the literally, the first time you did it, I said you do a great British accent. Is it need? The Americans aren't as good on the British accent as the Brits are on the English and it turned out that that to what was true and I was the last to know. Yeah,

I'm sorry, I'm very sorry. Well done, well done, I say, you're you're a true pro at least you were then. Since then it's a night. How are you, lady, look at you. Good last is for good news takes. Oh my God, the thank you. It's so good to see you. We you know, when we started this podcast, you were obviously right there at the top of our list. We couldn't have couldn't have done this without you. So thank

you for Oh my goodness. Well, I pressure is on then, for I I need some new jokes, if that's the case, because you're gonna have to visit the other realm for some new material. The disagree. It was. It was like number one question on my list to be like, we're talking to an Oscar winner. That's that's what's happening right now. We're talking to an Oscar winner, your first award winning guest. Miles. All right, am I? Yeah, okay, well, I hope not

the last. I hope the standard tie. Guys, there we go. Well, you've certainly raised our standards quite a bit. Unbelievable, unbelievable, miles. Why don't we start with your background, your history, how you got involved in the entertainment industry, and then we'll move on to some more shadow into stuff later on. But tell us a little about you, tell the audience about you. How did you dive in? Well, my name Miles Dale. I'm a producer and overnight sensation after thirty

five years in the business. Um, I got my start

as a production assistant. I live in Toronto, I've continued to mostly work in Toronto, but you know, we go other places and you know, for the last ten years I've been fortunate to of a great partner by the name of Germo del Toro, and we've made some what I considered to be a memoral thing, memorable things together and during that time period in you know, the summer of love, the summer of two thousand fifteen, I was fortunate enough to be able to hang with you guys

and come and hopefully bring a resting heart rate to Um the first season of the show, which was it was a great summer. I gotta say. I had a great time. It was a lot of fun. We were so lucky to have you. I think we yeah, I was going to say we were very lucky to have experienced that the way we did, but you came on right at a point where we were getting into kind of the thick of a lot of pivotal episodes of shadow hunters and directed three of the most iconic episodes

of season one. Well, it's funny because, yeah, I didn't know a whole lot about the show and I got a call to say, Hey, you know, would you be interested in doing this coming on as the producing director. And you know, I had always been a producer and at some point in my life, pretty early, I was

like a baby line producer. I was maybe thirty. On Friday the thirteenth then one of the directors said to me, you know, you should really direct and I said to him, you know, that is so nice of you to say that. You think that I have like the tools and the skill set to to be a director. He said no, no, no, you need director empathy, like you need to know what we're talking about instead of just looking at your watch and saying it's time to go home and not knowing

the coverage and all that. And so I kind of took that to heart because other producers had said to me even earlier in my twenties and I was just sort of breaking in that it's important for Um, you know, any producer, to sort of not necessarily to do every job, although it's helpful, but to understand every job so you understand the value of things like if you spend time in the editing room, you know how editing works. If you spend time in wardrobe, you know what's important about

costumes or hair or makeup or or props. or or production design. So you know, I asked a lot of questions of those people and, of course, working with directors, I said, okay, I'm gonna go direct something. And so I think the first show I was about thirtyes show called top cops, and I convinced this guy, Sonny Grosso, who was the show runner of the French connection cop.

I was producing the show, line producing the show, and I said you gotta let me direct to One, and I did and it was fun and great and I learned a lot. And then I just kept directing, mostly the episodes of my own shows, like on, you know, Robocop, and then there was a show called F x and some other shows, and then did some other people's shows and then we came to the strain that we started in Um and I did I started doing, you know,

episodes of that. You know, as you guys know, sometimes with a with a familiar face who knows what's happening, what you know, every line of what every character has said and your character and your character as opposed to the guy or the lady or the person who comes in for three weeks and is like not necessarily a journeyman director, but somebody who may not have the full context of of of the show. So I always felt directing on my own shows. It was it was fun

and I thought the cast of appreciated it. Um and and it just kind of made me better. So we had finished the I think it was the second season of the strain and I got this call to come up with you guys and I quickly familiarized I think you were on show five at the time, and then I directed seven, ten and then thirteen, which was the season finale, where, as we all now know, Um Jay's takes a potential turn to the dark side and hops on that that boat, that crazy boat, that's drone that

I had to talk John Carmody intogether after promising my firstborn. Um. But so I got up to speed pretty quickly and you know, I hadn't read the book, so I got the mythology going and really, you know, the first season is always a discovery process. And Yeah, and and you know, you're finding levels, you're finding character, you're finding chemistry, you're finding the look of the show, Um and and it's the first season is seldom the best because you're really,

you know, finding what works and what doesn't. And and so I really enjoyed that part of it and I have to say, having normally, you know, producing shows that I might also be a producing director on. I love not having all those other responsibilities and not even though I was cognizant of the money and the time and everything,

I didn't have to worry about it. You know, all I had to worry about was was, you know, the you know, the script and the shots and the and all that, and it was a really kind of a wonderful it was a fun summer. It is, it was it really well. People should understand, I think about especially line producing is a is a big one. Like I have learned that as soon as the line producer walks on,

set ships up like something's up, like something. Yeah, it's like we're running out of time or we're running out of money and we gotta, we gotta Stop Moving, and it just like yeah, you see them coming from a distance and like Oh, remember, Greg would be rolling in and I'm like Greg, Savior Bread, like you're saying my song brother. I know, I know where you live, of

but but you know, I we got it. All the reason we don't have to say you guys were so great, though, because you know, you were you were really eager, you know, and you you had great chemistry and you were friendly with each other and you committed to the material and you knew your lines and you knew the physical stuff.

So I gotta tell you, that makes it so much easier, you know, for me, because those were kind of challenging days, like a lot of what we were doing with you know, whether it's out in the seely forest with those crazy candles and lightning storm or whatever. It's just it's just helpful to be able to say, guys, this is what we're gonna do, this is how we're going to approach it, and you're always just so Um uh, you know, willing

to to take that journey. So it was fun for me. Look, the whole crazy thing was it's like how many times, and I got lucky because I got your first kiss, which is pretty awesome, which I looked at it again and it's so funny with the way this rock video music crashes in on the kiss and and Matt and

Emerald just had for hallway right. It was so funny and the circling canvras moments after you had stabbed, you know, Jason, the Gut and then, you know, he really the monster was looking like he was getting going for a kiss too, you know, but that was pretty hilarious. And then, of course, in the next episode, number ten, uh, you know, Major Arcanada, we get to go to the other world where you guys get to kiss again, but not in you know

where where clary is like, what's going on here? And I think I'm liking it, but the Seeley guy warned me that things could get carried away. The tingling that I'm feeling is me getting carried away. I'm sorry, is this PG or Pek adult talk? There was tingling. So, anyway, that was that was pretty funny, that whole going into that world and and you know Alice in Wonderland, which was like a nice kind of Disney thing. Remember, we had this crazy machine at that party. Yeah, the photo

both the photo booth. Yeah, would have that at the rap party, not just on set. I thought that that was a real mistake on behalf of production. Anyway, uh, we needed for reshoots at the end of the season, which there was real world kissing and then there was fake world kissing and then there was de materializing in

the closet face to face with that whole thing. And so I just remember all that fun kind of sexual tension between your two characters, which was great, you know, and then and then the end, like the big sacrifice that that that Jason makes at the end to go off with that time. So I I really thought I got some juicy shows. Yeah, yeah, and and I you know, I hope we made the most of them well. So

that's what I was gonna say. You know what's interesting about about when you get something that you're like, oh, we have three episodes that are actually quite prominent in the story on paper, is then it's sort of then there is a gauntlet laid down on the director, and I think a lot of audience members don't necessarily see that unless you're in the sort of you know, even the Guilliamo or or the Tarantino level, where like well, this is this is a Tarantino movie or this is

a Guilliamo movie, and you're like we are expecting a very specific type of thing from this. But that responsibility always comes to the director, no matter who you are or what, whether it's a show or a movie or whatever it is, a lot of that responsibility comes down to the director. Um and we have to tip our caps to you because you did an amazing job. I will tell you a funny story. So I don't think

I even never told you this. So when we're filming episode thirteen, there's a point in Jason gets that he's trying to get hold of clary and her phone is like off or in a dead zone for whatever reason, Um, and you can't do it. So it just takes because Um. So, anyway, he takes off running and one of my best friends in the world is there on set that day, Alex Kinsey, and we do a couple of takes of it and I come over and we say yeah, we're done with

that scene. We're gonna move on. Think Great. I come over and Kinsey Goes Hey, man, you're sure you're done with that scene, and I'm like yeah, they just said we're done with that. When to move on to the next thing? He's like are you sure, and I'm like yeah, why? And he goes no, that's not think it's not a big deal. You just make a funny face when you run, and I'm like, who do you mean? Don't make a funny face when I run. He's like yeah, you just make like a kind of a face. My big deal,

because it's done. Now. You make a funny face and literally, as he's saying, the last face, it was either you or Pierre Goes, Hey, don we need one more, and I was like wow, I don't know how I'm gonna do this now, like what do I do? So paranoid. Either way, neither the funny face nor the face I tried to control. Is this like the Tom Cruise Big grimace face? I don't know. I don't know what it was.

Either way, it didn't end up in the show because this when you were running in the studio, right, yeah, back of the studio. Yeah, I remember. Your face was really yeah, I think we had to fix out with visual effects as well. By the way, that's obviously a good friend or a guy who likes franking you right there. He's a good friend, for sure. That's both. That's Alex Kinsey, who wrote the music for our podcast. Good, a great friend would have told me off to take one. That's

what he would have done. He would have told me pulling you along here. Yeah, well, well, thank you for not sharing that, but I'm sure that we, I'm sure that for us it was focused or something trivial and had nothing to do with your otherwise impeccable performance. Well, you're just so committed. I'm going. I'm going, yeah, yeah, really, go for it. Whatever's happening? The Tom Cruise run too? Right? Yeah, got the Tom Cruise, that thing. Yeah, I now like

I'm now like super paranoid about it. I'm at the gym today on the treadmoon and I'm like, what's my face looked like? I have no idea. I need to take this out. I think you should tell your trainer I want to do. Running in front of a mirror from my right has to be in front of America and recording like like with your golf swing. Get Him never and that's gonna get me a great reputation as an active by the way, every time I go to a trainer, I'm like recording from mirror here. That's what

I need, my running face. That what I'm working out in the gym with all the lights around him. We ignore him, we just let him do it, mugged and running, mugged and running surrenders. Yeah, but that was that was a fun show. And you know what was fun about every one of those shows was that they were all kind of, you know, different, you know, when we went

into that. I loved the second one where we went into that other world through the portal and it was a whole different thing and and whole you know, it gave you guys a chance to stretch out in these sort of other, you know, personas that that that might have been used. So I thought that that was, you know, imaginatively written. And I will say back to your comment, Tom about it all being in hand to the director.

I felt lucky, you know Ed, you know who was the show runner in the first season, pretty much, you know, I wouldn't say he left us alone, but more than usual because having been on the other side of all kinds of serious television, oftentimes the show runners and and the writers are on top of you a lot more, as you guys know, and there isn't that same level of freedom and and sometimes you're in a box and

sometimes you're not. But I certainly felt having having been, you know, on the other side of it, and we always try to run our shows, you know, whether it was the the strain or certainly this recent show that we did in Anthology, as as really director friendly and giving giving a bit more leeway to the directors to see what you can find and if someone goes off piece, as happens from time to time, you correct, but at least you have a chance to see what they've got

in mind and what they can bring. You know, you know. So yes, it'll be within the the general confines of the visual style. But, like with our show, and again talk talk about episode ten, like that show called for a very different visual style. So I remember we shot it differently, we did the color differently, Um, some of the transitions were different, uh, you know, where it wanted

to feel like a different Um, you know, world. So it's nice to be able to have that freedom and certainly I felt that when we were doing shows well as in to your point, miles, to a lot of that. That is part of the magic of shadow hunters and of how that production was run, and and a lot

of that's stud to folks like you. You let every department do their job and have their own creative space and it became such a collaborative set because everyone there was a clear vision, but everyone was allowed freedom within that vision to bring their interpretation of it and work together to do so, and it created from the actors to the script to the production design and the costumes and everything this world where when we have an episode and go okay, we know our world, now let's turn

it on its head and do everything different, everyone gets excited all over again because you get to have that sort of creative impetus all over and and you know. So that's credit to you to allowing us all to kind of do that. Well, it starts on the page. It always starts on the page. But but the good news is the source material was great. Um the writers, I think, adapted it really well and it and it gave us a great kind of springboard to say, okay,

what can we do visually? Well, there's a lot of opportunity, you know, for visuals, you know, in terms of some of the creatures, like I was looking at again, the little spider guys that were chasing you through the tunnels. Call but remember that, because it was a shock school. It was enough bool, do you remember? That's what we had on the day, was enough Bo and that was my first experience that h having to I've had experiences

before I have to imagine something that isn't there. Is there, but I've never had to imagine something that is there is something else there. Had that before. I was watching again too. I don't know if you remember the seely dude where he's doing his little yeah, yeah, he he was doing that old thing and I just remember we're standing there in the woods and if everyone look and saw this guy going like, you know, like like like somebody,

like the mushrooms are kicking in. You know. It was one of those things where, you know, you look at it with all the swirly twinkle and it looks pretty good, but it was I think I probably said him. Look, I know this feels ridiculous at this moment, but you'll thank US later. Yeahs a common occurrence on shadow hunters. I mean a few episodes prior to you coming on,

we had that our first big wear. We'll fight in all the shipping containers, and that was Pierre running around with the tennis ball and a stick, going another over here, another down here and there's another one over here and we're all trying to, you know, keep straight face. Come in.

He does love his sensibles. We had a couple of demons come in that were just very in shape stunt people in head to Toe Green Morph suits with sort of sticks again for like eyeline and whatever, and I'm just sort of jealously looking at ABS through this like this skin tight suit, like it's this is actually making this very difficult to focus for me. Actually, if you could have had someone who was in medium shape, that would have been great, but you you felt. You can

imagine how I felt. I'll get your next buddy. So, but you do, do, you do do. It's nine o'clock here and I'm childish and I'm going to let that joke slide. I appreciate that. Thanks very much. Um, you do a lot of supernatural work, or or other worldly work, I guess, with obviously the shape of water. Congratulations again. Um, what do you think it is that draws you to that sort of I mean, it's obviously your partnership with GM,

but like what? What is it that you find so entrancing about things like shadow hunters, things like the shape of water, where there is this fantastical feel to them? Well, I think it just takes you to to other worlds and certainly Um, you know you can deal with things, you know, metaphorically and Algoric Ley, which sometimes is Um,

more interesting than straight up the Middle Um. I mean, I'm just generally attracted to good material, even though you know a lot of the stuff that I've done with guerremo, from Mama to the strain to shape, Um, I'm just drawn to good material, good story and good storytelling. But I think it gives you that kind of material, just gives you the ability to come at it from a

different angle, say some things in a different way. I mean, ultimately, you know, a lot of these things are thematically similar, you know, in terms of their their good versus evil. Um Uh. You know, the things that they're they're trying to say things, you know, right from wrong, all those things, human relationships and how we see them. And you know, for shadow hunters it was just it was a different

kind of challenge. You guys as young adults growing up, and it was not really dissimilar to the kinds of of challenges that you know, teens and young adults face today. It's just a different venue, you know. So so we was slightly higher stakes. I know that sounds incredibly simplistic, but really I think that for for an audience it's it's relatable in a way because it was. It's the relationships, it's the romance, it's the parental issues that you have.

I mean you could, you could think about about Valentine and Jocelyn essentially as just, you know, as a kid, as a UH, if you're a child of divorced parents, you know, you can actually relate to that, to you know, taking sides Um uh within a in a broken home. So you know, really I think you could look at some of those things and just find anyone, certainly of of a younger age, can find something to relate to in there. And I think it's the same with the

shape of water. I mean it just tells a story about, you know, the people who are are in power, who are inherently sort of corrupt, and the people who are underserved and without agency and without voice, whether you know it's a mute cleaning lady or a gay man, Richard's character, uh, and and and how they see the world and how how they treat the world and how the world treats them.

So in a way a lot of it comes down to, you know, the basics of Um, those kinds of themes of human behavior and emotions and and everything else, and it's just the venue that we set them in. So for me, if it's if it's an inventive construction. That way, uh, something new that we haven't maybe seen before or or different, or just a story well told that that resonates. That's kind of the thing that draws me absolutely and we

talk about that a lot on the show. You know, we've had a chance to go all over the world and do comic Con's and meet the shadow famine person and all of this, and that is something that always strikes people. As you know, we tell the story about Vampires and werewolves and shadow hunters and yet they're going

through such human things. It gives people a chance to connect and relate and sort of look at their own lives objectively for the first time, sometimes, UM, and see other perspectives as well, and that's, uh, I think that's, you know, the point of what we do. We want to just tell stories and hold that mirror up to the human experience and, you know, make a couple's first

kiss look like a rock music video sometimes. Speaking of that, we would be remissed if we didn't talk more about this, because cat and I have talked about this length at every comic con. It's the question we get asked. What is it like filming a kiss, especially a kiss. So sort of iconic already in the story lines. My aunts is always the same. It's not as romantic as you think. There's a lot of people in this because we what we remember. I kind of I have spoken about this.

We remember a lot of is is the angles of the cameras being a certain way, so we would be mid makeout and here, okay, in turn and we'd have to heads the other way, right, your so romantic. Yeah, yeah, look, it's well, look, imagine sex then. I mean, I've got this Netflix series sex life that's on now where. Um, yeah, that's my show. But so, I mean you talk about technical Um, that can get very and you know with

intimacy coordinators now. So now you should talk about that, because this is this is a sort of brave new world. I've now had them. I've had an intimacy coordinator twice now. Um, and there for anyone who doesn't know that, their job is to provide basically a safe talking space when you're performing something intimate with a partner or even sometimes without

a partner. It's it's to provide a safe space for the performer and for everyone else on set to make sure that they feel comfortable with everything that's going on, basically is that job. But this didn't exist five years ago, six years ago, this just it wasn't a thing, it was just and it's now sort of a safety protocol. It's really opposed me to when it came in, I mean post chadow hunters, you know. So it was a

needed and rightly so. Look, I think that over the years some people have have taken liberties, whether it be directors or producers or, you know, actors, where the power dynamic may have been favor of an older male star who was working with a younger you know. I mean last tango in Paris, you know, famously many things over

the years. But Um, you know, I think it's a welcome addition and I think as performers, you guys would know better than me, uh, to be able to at least say, Hey, you know, here's how I feel about this and you know, if he could, you know, put his hand here instead of here, I'd be more comfortable. And the best in TVC coordinator are certainly worth their weight in gold because they they are additive, uh, they're helpful communicating and they don't get in the way. You know,

sometimes you'll get the power hungry one. That's all sort of driving it. And and and and, you know, I've I've had great experiences and I've had experiences that have not been as good. But I think for for for you guys it, it can't be a bad thing. Um, because if everything's fine, it's like, you know, we did a scene with, you know, Bradley Cooper and Toni Collette on the last movie and there was going to be

some kissing in the SNATA. They're both very experienced actors at the top of their game, and I offered them both and they just said, yeah, I know, we're fine, right. So, um, but it depends. That's not always the situation. And and and with UH, certainly with younger people who are less

experienced in Um this. I think it's going to be, you know, helpful, because you never know what's going to happen, Um, and and you don't want it to get weird or or be you know, derail or see create relationship issues. So look, I I felt like it was perfectly natural. You guys are both very kissable, so asking me to kiss was just easy to do. Said, I can see this,

I can imagine this in my head. So action, you know, there. Also, there comes with a comfortability and cat and I on this show talk a lot about safety and the feeling of safety, Um, which not only comes from, you know, cat and EZE dynamic with each other, but also from people like you, from people like Pierre, from the crew that we have around us who do make us feel safe and who makes us feel seen and heard, Um, if we do have any grievances, because you're right, like

if there if there is like, you know, a layering or if there's any sort of like weirdness on set, then it does make those situations a little uncomfortable. Um. And you know, it comes from the head and you were the captain of the ship when we were doing that and it was our first big one and it was comfortable, it did feel safe, and there's nothing more I can say about that. That's the that's that's that's really the kind of the leadership responsibility and and and

you know, hopefully everybody is in that Um space. You know, Um, an actor, and this is testing the P G thirteen of it all, but an actor who shall remain nameless said to me, you know, he used to go into those scenes pre intimacy and he would say to the lady that he was in the scene where he said, I just want to let you know if something happens down there, it's nothing personal, and if nothing happens down there, it's nothing personal, personal and that's what the version of

an intimacy coordinator in the nineties. And we need you to sign here, here and here. So so look like yeah, yeah, yeah, but anyway, it's it's it's it's better now and and and we didn't have that, you know, too too much

of that going on. Look, I thought that the show was also a little bit, if not ahead of its time, certainly progressive in them the story between Matt and Harry's characters, when I thought it really dealt we dealt with that, you know, kind of head on, which was Nice, you know, at the time when not not everybody was doing that. So I really felt like, you know, everything was pretty

organic in that way. And as a as a guy for young adults, I thought it was kind of pretty healthy in the relationship department in terms of sort of truthfully expressing, you know, the kinds of things that are that are going on in those people's lives. And again, maybe some L G B T Q kids who were out there watched the show and I thought, okay, you know, this is these guys, these these superheroes. We've had them from yeah, we heard a lot, and that was five

years ahead of the first marble gay character. You know exactly. Yeah, what's so lovely about it is that we, you know, we get to do what we love for a living. We get to playmates believe and tell stories and do all of this. But the fact that it means something to someone and it can provide some sort of solace or answer or maybe just even a new perspective to someone out there in the world. It's it's it's the

biggest gift and it's the most humbling thing. I think about the show and why we've all stayed so connected and why the shadow fan is what it is and and we've all kind of the show is stuck with

so many of us for a lot of reasons. Well, that's great that you hear that from the fans at the at the fan events, because you know it means that you really did have an effect and you know, at the end of the day, entertainment is one thing, um, but being able to move people and and and have stories that resonate with an audience just beyond entertainment value.

I think is is something that's pretty noble, you know, and and if you can, if you can do that, you're doing, you know, something more than than than just entertainment value. So so I I really, you know, respected the show and it's writing, you know, for that part of it. But you have to establish so many of the kind of pivotal moments of season one, but also parts of our world. The first time we went to the seely court was in episode ten. In the first

time it was right. It was like they're probably illegal by now. So and do you remember the storm that day? There was a crazy storm too. It was like lightning.

I think he had a tree about. So I actually know this because we were so my family was there, my mom, my Stepdad and my little brother were there and my Stepdad's a big rugby playing guy, you know, big tough dude Um, and comes rushing into my trailer like she white and I'm like what's going on and he was like lightning just nearly killed me and I was like, I don't know if it nearly killed you. Sure enough, it was like twenty feet away, just like throw with the ground. It was. It was. It was

killing lightning for sure. So No, I had said to the special effects guys, we're looking to do something magical in the seeing glade. So the guy showed me a couple of things and I was that legal. Is that legal? Goes? Well, this is legal for now. So and it was these Candida handals and these candles, and you remember, they it created like it was like the worst version of pollen,

but it was. It was great. And you know now you would just do that with visual effects, you know, without a doubt, and it would be an easy cycle. But you know, this was seven years ago now. So so I remember there there was like an army of like four or five dudes, you know, standing in the and yeah, and the bands exactly playing operators just you know, it look great. Listen, season two we ended up using like pussy willows, like handfuls and handfuls of these like Dandelion.

You can't say that anymore. The name of the flower get in real trouble. The name of the flower, like Little Dandelion type things. And they just blew bags and bags and bags of them into the room and we're doing these like screaming scenes and whatever, and I was playing inhaling. Yeah, I was blowing things out of my nose for days. It was trendous. I would take your art guys, that's true, but they were also like glitter

and they never went away. You know, ten episodes later we were just we would find them in your ear or something. Yeah, yeah, some way you didn't want them to be. There's your PG thirteam. There's always there's always that element on set. It just depends on the set whether it's you snow candles or I just I just did a Western pilot and dust, oh my gosh, dust everywhere. Yeah, Hey, look, you know what, that's what we do. We make magic. So, you know, the guys tried a few things and it

looked great. Again, I watched that again a little while ago and and it looks great and it does like a different place, you know. So you know, I I credit the special effects guys with staying with something Um that is only semi harmful. Well, okay, so as a director, how do you sort of not the semi harmful aspect of it, but what goes into making those sort of decisions? Because obviously we live in a world today we're practical and special effects there's that are practical and visual effects.

Rather there's the great debate and so where. How do you go about kind of making those choices and picking and choosing your moments as a director? Right? Well, I'm joking about the semi harmful because you know, there are there are very straight rules that we talk about. So, you know, there used to be various kinds of of water based, oil based smokes that are gone. You know, uh, spectral smoke, which has gone water based smoke now is

is pretty easy. So we look at the MSD s of the you know, the the the rules and what the what the government health organizations say, and generally you know will find something. But I think more and more, I have to say, the you know, the tilt has gone from practical to the effects. I mean now you know, I mean one of the best examples, as an example is Um squibs. I don't know if you guys have

ever had them, but you know these things. You know when you get shot, you know they put a new shirt on and they've got the squibs on your chest and they've got little blood bags in them and you go and you know you'll hear the director go and your shot one, two, three, and the squibs will go one, two, three, and and then okay, cut. Now go back to wardrobe, take off your shirt, take off the squibs, reload the squibs, reload the wardrobe. Back on the set a half hour later.

If you do three takes, it's an hour and a half. Now, of course you've got it before and after shirt. You get shot. Visual Effects Does the hits with the beautiful blood spray and now cut. Okay, throw on the after shirt and you're done. You know again, we just had on nightmare alley there was this pit of snakes. I don't know you guys have seen the film, but in in, no, no, yeah, don't give anything away. Well, well, now give this. Won't

give much away. So so there's a carnival and there's a geek pit and it was like Gama was like, okay, I want snakes in the bottom of the geek pit, real snakes, and I said, okay, well, Gammon, that's okay, but a we've got Paul Anderson. You might know Paul Anderson, British fellow from peeky blinders, who's going to be in the Geek pit. He might step on one. You might get bitten by one. The snakes are incredibly expensive and, by the way, they don't move much when it's cold.

It was cold, so we brought the snakes every one day just as a point of really proof for me, and they as predicted. Paul was like, I don't know about those snakes, and they didn't move, and so it was like pack up the snakes. And now you know, we see in almost every shot there's like a visual effects snake were we threw some rubber snakes in there. By the way, if you guys want rubber snakes, I've got like a box of so give me a emailing address.

I'll send up rubber snake Um. But you know, all those shots ended up being the effects snakes, whereas back in the day it would have been real snakes. So so there's there's all kinds of stuff now where there's a reason why visual effects is a is a rapidly expanding business, and that's because it's just it might be a little more expensive, but it saves you time on set. Usually there's a safety factor that goes along uh with that.

So you know, we really learned to embrace it. I mean Guillermo was a big, big you know, started as a makeup artist and he was a big practical effects guy and increasingly, you know, we've been doing a lot more with the effects and certainly the final brush strokes.

Like if you look at the shape of water, you know the Creature Uh Doug Jones character had, you know, he's got suit on and everything, but all the micro expressions, the blinks, the eyebrow raises, the little facial expressions that that really are the nuances of the character and and and you know how he was sort of feeling at

a given moment. That was all the effects. So there's there's so many applications and it's been nice to be able to sort of explore that and grow with the business where where you can, you know, start to make your own, um decisions about what, what will be better or more, Um, uh efficient, time wise, Um, in terms of exactly you get more choices as well with a lot of it right, like exactly what you were just saying, you know, if you put pool in a pit of snakes,

I know for me is an so there's like there are other things that I'm worried about right now other than just performing the scene that needs to be performed. Like I'm worried about getting bit by a snake. It's a real concern that I now have. Or course, of course, of course. Well, and also that would probably lead to me getting bit. So it's gonna hurt everyone and then nobody's gonna love that scenario. I do think there is

a time for practical effects. I think I think the one we're going to see disappear soonest is guns, live gun fire. I think live gun fire is gonna is a thing of the past. You know, I'll say this. There's no reason for practical gun fire at this point. I'll actually tell you there's an interesting on this anthology series we just did, we had a scene where a guy was supposed to fire fully automatic machine gun at a creature, at nothing in particular, and everyone was obviously

very nervous. But in our case it was because it was in extreme slow motion and all the case things we're going to be flying out of this gun and forget about the muzzle flash. But that's one thing. So we talked about whether to do it or not, and and and we have a great gun wrangler, our Guy Charlie, and we decided to do it. You know, obviously we cleared the set and everything else, but typically we won't. There's absolutely no reason for live gun fire, especially in

the day. I will say at at night you get a little bit of you still do your muzzle flashes, but you get a little bit of reflective light on the actor's face. Um, but there's really no reason to do it. You don't really see and muzzle flash. I mean those are three hundred dollar vis effect shots there. This is the easiest shots. Literally eight year old could do those things. Yeah, because think about it, it's just

the barrel of the gun for three frames. You've got your little star thing that you've already got in the machine and you just go and that's it. Like it's the simplest thing you could do. So I think you're right. I think that, I mean any gun safety is going to go up and I think that live gun fire, there's a movement right now to just get rid of

it completely. I don't know that that's going to happen, but I mean certainly that will end up, you know, being a sort of a climactic or certain transitional moment in the history of movie guns. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see how it works out. I mean I just did an action movie. We had a lot of live gun fire and we had an incredible gun wrangler team.

One of the guys you could like count to the number of the rounds from a four fully automatic gun and you come back and be like I think you fired fifteen and be like now you fired fourteen, but the magazine, sure enough, there's one still in there and you're like wow, that's mind blowing. So there was never a point that I didn't feel safe with them. I

felt great with them. But the thing I noticed that I couldn't get rid of Medum as a human being was the blink reaction to every time the gun fires, because it's just it's loud and it's a big sort of it's an energetic reaction that happens. My character wouldn't have blinked. He was an ex navy seal and he's a US marshal like he wouldn't have blinked. So I don't know how he got around it, because it I think they did some sort of clever editing with it,

but I physically couldn't stop myself from doing that. As much time as I spent at the range trying to Nix that reaction. I couldn't do it and obviously with a vfx shot that wouldn't happen, because you don't get. I think people forget that blanks are still as loud as bullets, even louder in some cases. Like you know, we wear ear protection. Everyone on the crew has to have ear protection and when guns are being fired, because it's it's loud, it's really dangerously loud. It will do

some real damage to it. On the other kind of funny side is it, you'll get guys who go and they shoot machine guns and there'll be no rounds in them. It will be effects and you'll see their mouth going. Google the same thing. I didn't see with swords and my portal because I ended up, you know, doing portals and I'll go every time, but try so hard not to move my milk. I couldn't. I couldn't note like the package cat, you are your own sound effects machine. I try I provide me own folly on the day.

You know, pretty common, pretty common thing I've heard stories of, like the spider man underneath the moss going every time the sound guys like we can't even see it, like there's no reason for you to be doing it if it makes you even better and we don't care, don't do yeah, that's right. Well, we get to feel like, you know, kids playing in the middle of a forest with swords and portals and magic all over again. So I think, I think sometimes we all just get caught

up with the swords. You know, that was also my concern, just those freaking swords flying around. I mean I heard a thing that Mary Elizabeth Wind said on the thing where, or on Scott Pilgrim rather, where she got nicked with a sword right up here, and it's like even the soft swords, you know, and then they had plastic ones. But you guys really trained the crap out of yourself. I mean it was it was it was good and you guys were happy to know that. Season two the

training escalated, as did the swords. So there were no more snapping at the hilt swords. There were no more like chipped, like bits of plastic and battery going everywhere. The caveat there was. They were these very sort of impressive looking, like beautifully silver cleaver style weapons. Again in the cold, so the very flexible, this sort of one. Then in the cold they would sort of almost freeze.

They would harden. So then when you get hit in the finger or whatever, which happens, you're like wow, that really yeah. But you know, credit to our to drew our set medic, because he would sneak us, you know, bags of ice and liquid bandage for all of our split knuckles and bruises and everything else, and because, if you know, dom and I were in it, we trained so hard we wanted to keep fighting and it's just if you choose to do your own stunts, that kind

of thing is just it's an occupational hazard. Really, I would have been asking where the season one fisher priced swords every time you get naked like. Actually, I didn't mind them bring them back. I didn't need them to take two with the old sword Gid. Yeah, it was nice to have the freedom to actually hit the swords together, to be able to fully kind of extend all these things instead of having to be careful of these fiberglass swords.

But a real clang clang. Yeah, but then showed because, I mean, as you guys know, it doesn't just happen. That's all highly choreographed and and there's no like going in on the day and just doing it. So I was always pretty impressed by that. You know, guns are easy,

swords are hard. Well, it's all. It's all about safety and about training and about, you know, knowing, having the knowledge that you need to know and having the team around you that will, you know, train you and teach you and give you those skills, because half of being an actor, as you know, both of you know, is learning very quickly how to look as though you're a master at something that you know nothing about. And hopefully

you're learning skills in the project. Yeah, but but what a great thing for you guys to do, like earlier in your career, is, is is to be able to get that done, you know, instead of just uh, you know, yakking. It's important because now you know the difference between the you know, the pros and the amateurs. You know, when you're working with someone who's who's, you know, good rank were or a good trainer or a good anything. You

know the difference. So I feel like, Um, you know, the training on that show was actually at a pretty high level. Yeah, absolutely, you're so right. Actually, we learned a huge amount from shadow hunters, not just the physical elements, but, you know, both of us being a sort of the infancy of our careers, the things we learned from people like yourself, the things we learned from Pierre, from Silik, from the A D S, from the hair and makeup departments,

from costume departments, camera operators. Yeah, everything is that's something that shadow hunter has taught me so much by working with directors like yourself and and it's it's sort of how I've always approached work anyway. But it sort of applies to any aspect of our industry and that you do all the prep work but inevitably you get to set something's going to go wrong, something so it's going

to be some unknown element. But without that preparedness and without, you know, a director like you on hand who knows so much and has done all the prep, you're sort of lost at sea. But having that flexibility to play jazz a little bit with creatives, that wonderful. There's the version of of things going wrong, like whether it be whether or or something like that, and then there's just

the version of discovering something better. You know what, what's always important to me again is like uh with you, and by the way, you guys were very accommodating, you know. I mean there there are many actors, who? Who? Who are going to challenge every little thing that you say? Typically all older actors. Um, Gene Hackman, I'm talking about you, Um, and if you uh, or for me to be able to give the actor's space to you know, certainly you know,

question anything in terms of the script, the staging. You know, why would I go here and do this? Why would I do that? or or or or just the intent of anything or a better idea. Like I love that part of it and I feel like the actors do too, because they just, you know, you feel like you're more, you know, a part of it with some meaningful input.

You know, yeah, that's exactly it. You feel trusted, you feel you feel heard in that moment and even if, for whatever reason, it doesn't go, you know, the way you had thought it out in your head, of the way you planned it, because we we get the descriptions of the sets, so we sort of semi unless there's sets that we've been to a hundred times, we know sort of like yeah, we'Renna Walk in, we're gonna do x, Y and Z, but we've sort of got this image in our head of like yeah, I've I've walked around

my apartment and I've done this scene and I know sort of vaguely how I've stepped into it, and to have someone who is in charge, you know, the collaborating boss, as it were, to come in and say we're interested in hearing your thoughts on this. What is what it

really does. It actually for me, as someone who sort of can can feel a little self confident, um, sorry, self conscious about these things sometimes, having having someone in that position of power giving me the opportunity really did raise my confidence level for the scenes that we had to walk into land either way, however, we end up with it, we end up discussing it and having a thing that we're all happy with as a group, as a team, which which is a really, I think, a

hugely beneficial feelings have on set. Well, that's just the happier set where you guys are feeling valued and it's not Um something you know, the last thing you want to hear is look, you know, I'd love to explain it to you, but we got to go or Um, a line reading is the worst possible version of any of that. So, yeah, I mean to me like that's that's the thing that you want to be able to do.

is to just give you know, let let it be a little more sort of democratic that way, and and you know, usually that works out because usually you will find something that's better. Oh, the other thing I was just thinking about, which is great, not just the kissing, but one of my other favorite things in that show was the elevator thing, the shades of gray, erotic tattooing of the room mouse. Yeah, that's great play that tattooing.

Oh Yeah, the one thing I remember about that scene, and speaking of the collaboration of everyone on set, is, you know, when you're in an elevator, it's such a tight space. Dom had to wear my bounce at one point that. Would you remember that? It takes a light fabric to full service scene. Partner, baby listening. I'll do it again, do it again. Did we build that elevator

or shooting elevator? We built it right, because we disappear up through right, because right, so we went up and went up through the panel with your grand plan exactly. They don't remember that, you know, a little, hell, a little, hell, yeah, it's the it's the shadow hunter equivalent to dropping the handkerchief, right. Yeah, was it a disappearing room? What was it and it was night vision, being able seen the dark, night vision. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you. I have to say your memory of the show has

been pretty impeccable. Like there I sort of all of the details you remembered. We have struggled with that. We've gone through it and been like, oh, that's right, this is when this happens and x, Y and Z, and had sort of placed it all together. But you, I seem to have remembered every little detail, which is which is pretty damn impressive. It's astounding. Well, it was very traumatizing at the time. So, yeah, you know, in full disclosure, when, when, when I knew I was going to be doing this,

I scanned. I scanned a couple. Did I did a rewind? Yeah, but but still it was I remembered a lot of it because, like there was some kind of big stuff like that. Stuff on the boat was wild, and we got back to that boat too. Thinking about talking about thunderstorms. Nothing like a thunderstorm coming in from the D Blake and you can see the clouds encroaching and you stood on a giant fucking steel conductor just thinking this is, this is what's all going to die at some point

here we go. This is great. Um. Yeah, we went back to that boat and then we went into the bowels of the boat and had a huge fight scene in the bowels of the boat. But it was like thirty five, thirty six degrees Um in our leather jackets and I had this sweat so that I hated and we were just ripping dodging in the dodging room. Now, yeah, I did my bit on the boat at drone shot. I said this has got to be the last shot

of the season and it was really, really nicely. Yeah, yeah, I thought that show was really good and, Um, you know, both both action wise and character wise. Um, yeah, and I was also the funny the other funny thing about cat with you, which and I a little character while waking up in dead with Simon. That whole thing there, remember that where he sees you and Simon, are you gonna ask me? When are you gonna ask me? When

are you gonna ask me to be your girlfriend? Yeah, that was just that was just so much fun because it was like a completely different thing for for you. I remember having fun with that too. Yeah, not so much fun for Simon. At the end of the day, Simon, Simon went through it, all of the seasons. Yeah, he, uh, he ended up. Alberto, who played Simon Um, ended up falling in love and getting engaged to his co starf from season three. He met his fiancee in this show. Yeah, wow,

who was lovely. Oh, fantastic. Well, that isn't happy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was such a great cast and Harry's gone on too great things. And of course Isaiah, who never gave me my bottle of old spice that he said he was going to come through with. So, yeah, I thought I sort of rated a gift pack of some card. Yeah, but no, you know, I mean, I feel like our episodes led to him being in its very much. So, yeah,

crickets from Isaiah, man, man. That's great. Well, miles, it has been absolutely so lovely having you on the show and reconnecting. You know something, you were such a huge part of the show and a huge part of season one and and it's Um, it's been. It's been an honor and a pleasure. Yeah, well, I miss you, guys after having done this. Take me on one of those fan things. Sometimes I'll go and I'll get you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty from the panel. I can get a panel. Yeah, well, look,

thanks for having me, guys. I really, I really appreciate it. I had a great time, I gotta say, like nothing but find memories. Uh, you know, I hope it was for you too, and I'll tell you what I mean. Cat, I'm in L A pretty often, so, UM, next time I come, let me, let me take you for lunch and it'll be nice to just see your smiling face in person. I'm not often in London, but when I come, I'm coming for you and I'm excited to see night Morelia. Yeah,

you should really see it. Come on, guys, show your brothers some love here. My girlfriend is in L A. Um, so we, you know, obviously long distance for the time being, and we we have like movie date nights and it's on our movie date night, Miss, but I can't sit down, like right now. It's almost ten o'clock and I'm like perfect, so let's watch a movie and I scroll through and I'm like I can't. I've promised her there and watched that one together. I'll call her. I'll go you the

hall pass you. Thank you that it's not entirely romantic, like what I might suggest a few episodes of my serious sex life o dad if you're looking for a date night movie. Um, it's pretty popular with the ladies. Perfect. I'm super excited to about it. Well, let's hope that this is not the last time our paths cross on and offset, because I know we'd certainly love to work with you again. So thank you for being here. Back at you, back at you, guys. All Right, I love you, guys.

Return to the shadows is hosted an executive produced by me Dominic Sherwood and Katherine McNamara. Our executive producer is Lingley, our senior producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia, and our producers are Hannah Harris and Kristin vermilion. Original Music by Alex Kinzy, performed by Alex Kinzy and Katherine McNamara.