Darren McGuire

I'm good? Thank you? How are you? I'm good? I am calling you from the eight and seventies or podcasting. Yeah, you are in London. I take it. I am in London. Oh my goodness. Though, here is my favorite fucking person, Darren. Can you hear us? My god, I can hear you guys? Yet we have the most special guest today on the podcast, the one and only Darren McGuire. How are you guys? Go to see you man? You too, buddy? How are you doing too? I'm great? What about are you in

the world? What's what's your time zone? Well, I'm in Toronto, okay, and I am just lately I've been working with my brother Chris on Star Trek Discovery. Amazing, amazing, Yeah, it really has been amazing. They have this, They have the A R Wall. I don't know if you've ever heard

of this. It is a piece of technology that was originally used on the Mandalorian and if you can imagine, I don't know the exact proportions, but like half a studio of screens, you know, in a curve in an arc so that and then it's on the ceiling too, and then it's on the floor too if they want it.

So you are completely completely surrounded by filmable background, so being you know, if you're on an alien planet, it's super handy, right because now for you guys, for you know, for the performers, if you're supposed to be a creature or something to that effect, you can see them and have your eyeline. They can even light with it. It's amazing. So I've been doing a bunch of that lately. It's

been amazing. That's incredible. Yeah, Well, Darren, we are so so so thrilled to have you on the podcast today. You've been someone that we have talked about extensively in our rewatches and it's just such an honor and a privilege to have you here today, and we miss you. It's been amazing to see you guys too. I've I've missed you. I think about you all the time. I tell stories about stuff that we did together all the time. It's amazing, how you know, I've been at this for

a while. I've done a bunch of stuff now, I've been working with Giamo del Toro lately. And everything that you learn along the way helps you along the way. And I just learned so much about staging because you guys were so talented and so willing to work hard at whatever we were doing. Um, it opened up a lot of possibilities for me creatively in terms of, um, how we shot it. I know we're going to get into all of this, but it was it was really you the cast that made it possible, um and kind

of opened up my horizons creatively. And I look back at it and out and I realized how lucky I really was, and not that I haven't worked with super talented people still since then. I have. It's been amazing, But UM, you guys were one in a million. You know, you all worked so hard at everything we did, and for me as an instructor, like as a teacher. When you have somebody like that that you're working with every day at work is awesome, you know everything, And I think, look, dude,

that's really sweet of you to say. But for us, I don't think I'm speaking out of turn with cat here either. You know, we are hard workers, like that's something we love to do. We we enjoy what we do as you do. But the difference of having an instructor who gels who I like, having someone that you're excited to come and work with every day. We give all of the credit to you because we we were

trained by you. We did all the work with you and with your team, UM, and you inspired us to to want to work the way that has now sort of become our uh mantra like this is how this

is how you work. UM. So we have you to thank for that, really, and I'll just echo that truly and just say, you know it's it's Don and I've both gone on to jobs where we've had to do stunts and fighting and action sequences and things like this, and it's having the foundation and having someone like you and and folks like your team that taught us everything we know and inspired us and taught us not only the mechanics of what we're doing and how to apply it to film, but also how to be safe and

how to keep ourselves and people around us safe and you know, moving into other sets. It's really been the most amazing resource to have. And and I just I think about you every day and I'm inspired by you every single day. So it's just it's it's the biggest gift. You opened our horizons in so many ways. Thank you, Cat,

that's amazing of you to say so. And got it'd be great to get the band back together, right like, Oh man, I I still I still text every now and then with Matt Hastings, and I still in touch with Chris Hatcher. On occasion, I did sex Life form us earlier in the year. And yeah, I just think about what we had. I think about, um, you know there are training room, Um just that space, man, every lunch time we were there, so they started telling us not to We were on the mini tramps and gise

different toys and whatever. It was. It was awesome. Oh yeah, it was awesome. And again, like when I would you know, and as a stunt coordinator, I'm sometimes I'm able to engage myself completely with the fight action or the training action that we're doing. And sometimes I have to go back and forth in meetings and prep and dealing with

whatever all the other aspects of the job. And so when I would come walking into the room and I'd see one or more of you in there, and you know, when you'd normally be with Dean, and I would want were more. It was such a good feeling. Man. It was just that it was such a good feeling. And I feel like, you know, guys, we meet the most of it, man, we did, I would agree, before we dive into everything. Probably, why didn't you tell us a little? I mean, we know most of this, but ondn't you

tell the audience a little about you? How you got into this, how you got attached to the show? Like, give us a little a little Darren lowdown? Alright, alright, Um, Well, I grew up in northern Ontario, in Sudbury, in a mining town about I guess it's about four and a

half hours north of Toronto. And my father, uh, my grandfather was a boxer, and so my father learned about boxing as a really young kid, and then later in the early sixties, his cousin, my dad's cousin started taking a style of karate called shoto kan uh, and he showed my dad a few moves, being you know, my maguire was Irish, right, so the cousins like to fight a little bit, you know, And so my my dad's my dad's cousin had some new moves, you know, and

my dad was impressed, and so that's what started his interest, and so he got involved in it in the early sixties and the early seventies are the late sixties and the early seventies is really when he got zoned in. And I was born around that time, and my dad started teaching us. I mean, you know, we had we had our karate gs or karate uniforms when we were still just a little baby. But you know, I was still seeing my g you know, I was just a

little kid, and yeah, and he taught us. He taught us the basics, very much like what I taught you guys when I first when we first started working together, the basic punches, the basic blocks of building the arsenal then and that just continued through our lives, myself and my brothers, my four brothers. It was just a family treaty and you know. It definitely made the sibling rivalries more fun. Um, I'm sure you know. And my dad had oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. And my dad had rules.

You know, we weren't allowed to fight with weapons inside the house. You know, stuff would get broken. Yeah, whether it was vosses or bones, one of them. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It was a hole holes in the ceiling from the niw Chuck who you know are like, oh my gosh,

I remember so many incidents. One time I was chasing my brother Chris, who you worked with, you know, Um, and I had the sword and all he had was the fire poker, and so we were fighting and he was and I was chasing him, poking him in the butt with it, and the hook on the fire poker hooked onto the corner of the wall and pulled the whole corner of the wall out. And we had just finished building this house so quickly before my dad got home.

We had the drywall out and we're like plastering it and standing it and using this air dryer to dry it off. You know. Oh yeah, yeah, it was it was like that. It was you know, that that we were a little crazy, you know, and then that just yeah, and then I competition started to be more of an aspect of all of our lives. And we competed heavily in martial arts, um you know, right into my mid twenties, and it went from regional to sort of provincial to

international kind of thing. And I knew, I mean, since I was fifteen years old, I knew that I wanted to work in film. I knew that I wanted to

somehow bring my martial arts obsession into into film. And so my last sort of big international competition was a World Championship that was in Lester in England, and we were training in Toronto, and I got a contacted from somebody that was doing sort of low budget chop sake films, and uh I I played hookey from training with the with the World Championship team, I played hockey for four days to shoot a couple of fight scenes with Billy Blanks in a movie. And that's really how it started.

And then it was just stunts, you know, you know, and the stunts got more intense. It was still I was still a fight specialist and acrobatic specialist, but you know, I got lit on fire and thrown downstairs and hit by cars and stuff along the way, and um, in the stunts right not that wasn't That's not how you make your way in Hollywood. For anyone listening, you don't have to go through any of that. I don't think it is just stunts, totally stunts. And it was a

gradual thing, you know. I mean, initially the jobs that I got were completely fight based, and then as I got my education with really excellent stunt coordinators Marco Bianco, John stead Rick forsythe and these these people all contributed to teaching me about the craft of stunts and not just how to fall down a flight of stairs properly or how to do a high fall into boxes properly. To um, I was going to bring it up at

some point, it's got to come up. Oh yeah, baby, we've spoken about We've spoken about it on the podcast already. Funk it. We're gonna do it now. We've spoken about it on the podcast already. And how furious I was that that day They were just like, nah, there's no way you're not going to do it, And I was like, We've done it. We did it off a cherry picker. It's so much harder and and the thing is the story that I like to tell about that, And I

know we'll get back into it. But so I remember looking at you and you're looking me in the eyes and you're saying, I want to do that gag, and I'm thinking, okay, you had already proved your athleticism to me up to this point, and I knew you had nerve um, and so I thought, okay, well I'm gonna present with what what I would present with another stunt performer, which was the test where we bring up the mini tramp and we had the pad and I laid a piece of paper towel on the matt and and said,

you know, the deal was that you had to dive off the mini tramp comes straight down head first into the mat, and before you roll to your back, you had to snatch the paper towel off the surface of the mat to flip onto your back to do what we call the face off. And so I thought, this will teach him, this will, this will, this will give him a little fear of therapy. And he does it correctly the first time he tries it, and I'm like,

of course he does what what? And remember dumb, I was like, no, dude, do it again, you know, And I look over at Dean and Dean's looking at me because I thought, this is how I'm going to get out of this, because I knew Disney Safety wasn't gonna like it one bit, right, so of course not, and so they then he did it again, and then he did it again three in a row, and now you're just showing off. Now you're starting to get in to the pike, and you were like, you know, So then

I thought, all right, says a Dean. And I talked about it. Um We're like, he's like, what do you think about? And I'm like, it was where he is in space, and I'm trying to think in my head too. Dom.

As soon as I saw you do that, I started thinking, okay, so then now I have to build a case for Disney Safety so that they can see why I would think you would be safe for a stunt performer to do that, and how I would test the stunt performer, right, and so obviously the testing process is risky, Dom, as you recalled, and I was worried about it, but yeah,

you just got it. And so then we went to high, a little higher, a little higher, a little higher, and you weren't hesitating, And so I remember the last conversation with Disney Safety and he said, he said, look, we're gonna we're gonna talk about it over here. And I said, okay, and I said, and I made it clear, I said, I trust it him a hundred percent to do this. And it really was the last minute, It really was. And I listen and it's exactly and I have the footage,

so I know that it's that I've done it. And it's funny. Do you remember for training because we got it to the height of the bridge and there was only one patch in the studio that was physically high enough to bring us to that place, and we had to bring the whole rig and everything to there. Um. Yes,

it's such an interesting thing. We talked about trust a lot on this podcast, a lot about trust, mostly in relation to performing, like you have to trust your other performer, and it's exactly the same thing with stunts, if not more so with stunts. And I remember I watched that

video all the time. You know, I'm showing people like I jumped with It's not a big deal or whatever, just you know, blow my trumpet and there's not very many people in the world that I would trust to hold the back of my trousers while I'm stood over three levels high of cardboard boxes, looking straight down at thirty ft and looking at your eyes, looking straight up. There's not many people I would trust to say you

can do this. And you and Dean were those two people in my life and always will be you, always will be that person in my life. And you told me that I could jump off the Empire State and survive it. I mean, please don't say that, but if you told me I could, I think I think I'd hop off. You know, Thank you, thank you, thank you. That's just it, as you know, for folks that are you know, this kind of schedule we were on and the sort of things that we wanted to be able

to do to play these characters. You made it. Not only did you make it possible, but you made it safe. And you you gave us that trust and that confidence not only in ourselves to the training, but in you and your team and Dean and everyone else to to be able to do things that I've not been on the show since It's let me do as much then being able to walk into their shows with that confidence of going yeah, I can you show me what to do and you make it safe, I can do it.

It's invaluable. Well it was, you know. And I have to say though, as we keep passing credit back and forth, it really is like that. Guys, like like we were able to create that momentum and push the boundaries the way we did because it was a combination of my experience as a teacher and I could see different things in all of you, you know, like like with with you, Dom,

you are a natural. Uh, you're a natural athlete. Not just the physical ability, jumping ability, strength to wait, there's all those sort of things that go in the toolbox. But when I say a natural, I mean that that your natural instinct is usually the right one movement wise or momentum wise. It's just it's just how you put

in movement wise. There We've been out drinking together and he's like, I'm going to make sure that I say, his instincts are good when it comes to movement, but not necessarily like choices nothing, but it's all part of it, dum. That confidence comes from from getting the right take on stuff right. And I remember my first exposure to you, Cat, I was like watching you and I could see, I could see a dance background, I could see a discipline in your movement, and but really what I noticed is

your attention to detail. It's such a thing. And it's interesting too, because I know that Clary's Clary is an artist, if I recall correctly, and artists and artists pay very close attention to detail. And I found that it was interesting that your approach to the training and you had a tendency to pick out the details, and so I could grab onto that and I could get into cahoots on what to do with your character physically. It was

just such a thing. I just I just, oh, that's very easy, because she already approaches it in a way that I imagine that Clary would. Of course, there's all of the natural aptitude that I find in you, but it's it was your details and your and your You worked hard at it, you really did. You were in there with Dean all the time, YouTube all of you as much as I possibly. It's that attention to detail

that always inspired me and everything that you did. Whenever we talk about the fights, it's that character story within the fight that's it's almost a separate plot line that's driving everything and the way you've blended different pieces and attributes of different martial arts to create each supernatural characters

fighting style. It added so much to the show and so much depth to the stories that we were telling that people picked up on, and it it created the world in another another facet that wasn't any of the sets or the costumes or the dialogue or anything. It filled out the world in such a rich way. Thank you so much. It's so interesting how it happened to I did a pilot with Hubert and it was Ransylvania was a CBS thing and Hubert was the Wolfman. It

was super cool, and anyway I was. I was hoping to get onto this other thing afterwards, and it didn't happen, and I was a little sulky, and so I went up north camping and I was up there for a few days. And when the places that I go generally there's no cell signal, there's no cell phones, there's no it kind of like I definitely go off the grid,

as you guys remember. And when I came back out, there was a email waiting for me from Matt Hastings, who I had never met or heard of, and it was basically just him saying that he had heard some good things about me from another producer that I had worked under, and wondered if I would be willing to show up for an interview. And he didn't even say what the show was. There was just the address where

I was supposed to go. Literally was like the next day when I checked out the address, I realized what the show was because you guys had done the first season and and then I realized what it was, and I quickly watched. I think I got through two or three episodes of the first season to get a sense

of what it was. And then there I was the next day, you know, doing my interview, and I already had some ideas about things that I thought I could contribute to based on what I had watched in the first couple episodes and got a bit of a sense of of all of your movement. Already. I had no idea how amazing you guys were going to be, But in my view, I was like, Okay, I don't know

how much they've been taught. They didn't know anything about what you guys had learned to get you through that first season, and I thought, Okay, we could take this further, you know, yeah, and they were so they were so open to suggestions and worked really well with me in terms of some of the stuff that I thought you guys needed in order to make it safer and also to open up the possibilities for our fights. Like, um, the staff which was originally was just a whip for

Emerald's character, and I had an issue with that. I thought, now we need to make a staff out of that, and again Matt Hastings agreed, and everybody really worked hard to produce something that that was going to be practical and that we could expand you know, all the new weapons that we got to squeeze in there as the time when um, yeah, I really had a plan. I really did, and I hadn't had an imagination like I was imagining what was possible, though I didn't know that

you would all work so hard. So I ended up being able to do stuff that was beyond on my wildest dreams creatively for sure, as too man, we got to I mean, correct me if I'm wrong with There are like a couple of things that we did that hadn't been done by the actors on TV before, right, Hu, guys man, Even just being able to say that as fucking cool as ship, you know what I mean? Do

you remember some of those things we did? Man, you're doing gainers towards each other on wires, ft off the floor, traveling, each of you landing right in front of each other, you know, I mean it was like there was some of those things that like, not just in terms of wire gigs that we did, but like, dom, do you remember when we ran your face through the glass on the bar right? Remember crash, crash vividly? Remember yeah, yeah, body, And I remember David Makan or Mike McMurray, that was

the DP at the time. He just looked at I think it was making just looked at me like are we really going to do this? And you had to keep your head in the right position that properly and you wouldn't get hurt, and you did it every time exactly right. And God like no good teaching, good teaching, good teaching. You can, like a student can funk up good teaching, but you're always going to suck up bad teaching,

you know what I mean. So like as some of the teaching is good, then the opportunity for it to be good is is there in present. I wish someone had said that to me when I was a kid, right, I don't know. I always think about too, because so many things happened on a set and things changed last minute. And one of the fight scenes that has become one of my favorites was you and I on the roof Doom when you were the owl, right before you dropped

me off and I land on the car. We had a two or three minute fight scene planned out there, and the way the shooting day went, we just didn't have time for it. So the fact that we were able to rearrange that fight, make it work and shoot it between your team, Darren and you know, Drew and Glenn on handheld cameras and me and dum and we just did the whole damn thing, basically rewrote the whole fight. It was nuts. There are so many instances. Yeah, and

you could. And that's what can be done with people who can pay attention to the details. See the other thing too. It's like it was our training right. I remember seeing your strengths when we first did and I showed up with my karate pants on. Remember in the training room, we're doing the punches, we were doing the kicks and building our arsenal. And as time went, like I remember both of you wanting to get the spinheel kick.

You wanted it, and it's something that is difficult, and it requires a dancers control over any like centrifical forces, spinning footwork, a proper foot position when you make contact with the target. It's not easy, but if you can get it, then it's a dent for all the martial artists watching, we all know what it takes to learn that and that it can't be faked. And and I remember having when in our first days training together, having the arsenal that I had to work with then, And

then as time went, our training goals are achieved. Now the arsenal gets bigger and the bag of weapons gets bigger and bigger, so that now whether I'm choreographing or Hubert, it was getting easier and easier now, right, like I could take a like have a creative concept in my head, like and I was even able to do some of this early, like don do you remember and the fight on the ship, remember, and you were under the crane and we didn't even know each other that well yet.

And when I went for the tech survey to look at the location and plan out where we were going to shoot everything. And I saw that space underneath the crane where the entire sword fight would have to be done in a deep crouch, and it was something that I just thought would be amazing visually. And I just thought that as a filmmaker, the way the light might reflect off the ceiling and the dramatic positions that it would put you in. Of course, you could crack your

head on all the steel stuff sticking down along the top. Two. Yeah, yeah, that was the risk for sure. Remember, dude, that was the risk. But your character took out three people, three soldiers in that fight, and it's one and I was very proud of that. I remember I remember really really seeing, oh, I'm in a venue now where I can I can take those things that are in my head and and with everybody's outing it into something different and it looked different.

This is what I remember from that scene. We were filming episode one, and when it was the middle of the day, it was super hot, and we're all in those horrible jackets, were on this giant copper container and I'm starting my chat having a cigaret out of quit smoking now. By the way, well mostly, um, congratulations, mostly, But I'm starting my chair and I'm having and I look over and I see Darren plotting this fight scene

out in his head under this thing. And again, we didn't know each other that well yet, but I've got you like crouch, strength, all this stuff, and I just I was watching you and AWE, just like, oh, yeah, we're going to get on. I I love this guy. This is awesome because this excitement, this this passion you really feel almost like childlike jubilism that comes from doing what you do, and that's how we feel about what

we do. So to have that like immediately it's like giving me butterflies just talking about it, Like to have that connection there, it's just like, all man, this is this is gonna be good stuff. I'm excited about this. It really felt like that. Yeah, I'm also having someone who looks at each of us and goes, I'm going to invest the time and the energy it takes in each of you to train you and to to teach you and to bring you into this because it's it's so much I imagine for you, so much easier to

just let the professional sunt people do the job. As opposed to taking the time to actually train actors who you know, don knew more than I did at the time. But I didn't know how to throw a punch, or hold a sword or do hardly anything to be able to do your own fighting in the future. And it's it's I mean, here we are passing credit back and forth again, but it goes without saying yeah, I mean. And I pick a big key in that was that you guys learn how to really do it as a

martial artist. When I was growing up, I was very lucky genetically. I had a crazy vertical I don't know about growing up. Let's talk about that real quick before we move on. I went down talking about his crazy vertical. What he's talking about is being able to get his leg like up to a certain length right like most normal human beings can reach about forty five between forty five and ninety degrees um, and then the ballet dancwers can get it all the way to the side of

the head. And I remember having my parents on set and I was like, damn, showing the thing, man, just go and show him the thing. And just so I can only do it with my arm because I'm I can't do this, but just slowly but extends all the way up to the side of his body, and we're like, wow,

I mean that's crazy. So don't say in your younger days ever again, because you and I both know that this is something that you've got in the bag, so you know that, well it's too Yeah, I mean I definitely I worked really hard at it, and it didn't come easy, guys, like a you know, I trained obsessively, you know, like like like I wore ankle weights for example.

I went through a whole period of ankle weights for both three and three and a half years and started with like just like two and a half pounds on each ankle and eventually sixteen pounds you know, and sleep in them in and go to weddings with them and embarrass my friends, and you know, it was it was. It was one of those things where I was just very lucky athletically to have the genetic benefits that I had,

and and having been doing it since I was a baby. Literally, um, it just I had a lot of things going for me and and I will say that the dedication was definitely born of love. But like like most people, there's usually you know people that work very, very hard at something. There's usually a story behind that. There's usually a reason.

And I'm the same and I think that. Man, it was just a lot of things lined up just perfectly for me to meet you guys at the time that I did, and to meet the type of people that would appreciate the kind of work that goes into being able to put my legs straight up like that and

do the things that I did. Um, So I when I saw how committed you were, Yeah, I mean, I'm glad that we didn't take a shortcut, that we taught you the real technique and and that you embraced it the way you did, because that's a big part of what made it so believable, because it was believable and look what you ended up doing, Like remember the Bob.

Remember that? And you guys would work your different techniques on there and I and I could see you getting more and more Persent's just going to talk about that, man, Like I still have a Bob, I still have this. You do still have a Bob. I have a I have a little punching bag outside. But it's in England, so it's raining all the time. It never gets you, but it's out there. But Bob and weave. It's so

funny the little bits that I learned from Dean. Like my friends or my girlfriend are like, let's do a little like boxing workout class. I'm like, great, I know exactly what to do because I learned sort of the catching section from Dean. And I still go still to this day when I go overhead so like the hooks or whatever, I go, Yeah, you remember, Dean used to

make that noise every time you would go ahead. You would make that noise in his mouth, and it's just ingrained in me, like every time I do it, and people are like, why are you making that noise? And I'm like, I don't know, but that's what I do. That's the noise that goes with that motion. It's just how it goes. Yeah, fantastic and and and Dean. Dean was great with you guys that way and built it

with you individually too. You guys had your things. Yeah, it really was the biggest gift, and it's something that you know. I I still box to this day. I travel with a set of small mmm a gloves just so I can keep it up wherever I can find a bag and even the next job I did right

after Shadow Hunters was Arrow. My first scene my first day on set was a three minute fight scene, and I was so proud to be able to take what I had learned from you guys and walk into that stunt rehearsal and go, I at least know I can carry myself with the technique that I have. That's all. That's all you and Dean, Yeah, thank you so much. I mean, it was you two. Obviously, you guys were in the hot seat the most frequently. Um. But I remember training Alberto and Dean identified it. He was like,

this guy's a boxer. He is a natural boxer. It was just like we could believe how fast he could learn it, you know, and and have that low game. He had that look, and and and obviously Harry off the hook. Harry is so talented. He blew my mind everything. Harry It's crazy. Oh my god, Oh my god. And Matt. I remember Matt's character. It was really interesting how perfect he was for that. When I first met him, I thought,

his subtlety is perfect. Um. And I remember working out fight sequences, and my favorite fight sequences were the ones that you guys would do in a training sequence, right, like that. Some of the stuff you and Matt did was awesome. Some of my favorite fights. I just found it remarkably easy to adapt the fight style for the characters. Also because I think it was properly cast. I didn't feel like any of you were fighting natural instincts in

order to perform that your character physically. It seemed that the casting was pretty appropriate, you know, like in terms of what I then had to translate the movement, there was no problem. Let's talk about favorite fights. We should talk about favorite fights. I I'm on board with you about favorite fights being the training ones. I think mine is probably the like opening of second half of season two with the training with Matt and I with the jewel access. That thing is the first time I used

those and that was so fun. However, you remember the last fight we did in the training room with Alberto with fucking broken collar bone and like freshly torn up first So I remember about third filming that because I'm on this killers, just trying to get me through the day. But it's like it's the same thing that we were talking about, right, like, you want to work hard for

these people that we care about. This Aaron was going to do the do you remember who's going to do the sweeping he'll kick that we were just talking about over Alberto's face, and you were like, let Aaron do this, woe man, You've gotta balance through arm And I was like, get to funk, Bud. Do you think I'm gonna throw I'm going to give away my last sweeping he'll kick that I'm never going to do on this show. You out of your mind. Wait, I'm doing it. It's gonna

cause me pain, I don't care. But it was that like every time we got out, I was like, we don't need to do that again, right because I am in a severe amount of pain. We got it, okay, good? Correct. Those training room fights were so special, like between the you know, the one that you and I did with the double wire stunt there and that you were talking about earlier. Even the fight I had with Jackie when

she came in and it was her first episode. She had that brand new sword and we had this this five page long scene with a fight that Donny came in at the end, and it's all of these things that just over and over and over again. We got to use the same space but make it so different every time. Oh yeah, yeah. And that was again where Matt Hastings and I were selling cahoots. You know, I think it was like fairly early on that I I understood what Matt wanted and how he visualized it, and

so then I started to craft the fights. And again when I say I started to craft the fights, remember there was Hubert Border who is brilliant, George Shortov brilliant, My brother Chris the pizza fight, that was him, you know, Chris Mark, another huge person that contributed in a big way. But yeah, I mean I love the training sequences, like Cat that fight in the second season when you kill Valentine. I'm proud of that. That was vicious in the cold. Oh yeah, that was a cold day, it was, And

and Cat, you were in your confidence. I remember looking at it and being like and Dean saying like, she's in the zone a but we're like, yeah, hell yeah.

Because with with everybody, with every every actor, when you perform a fight scene, let's say, and it's still an examination of the character, but under extreme circumstances, and so it's very tempting to just put together a fight that is just all the coolest moves we ever wanted to see, but that the best fights, the best are where I as a choreographer can create and provide multiple opportunities for you, the performers, to express your character, and that means don't

over complicate the choreography at times. And I really felt like the fight with Valentine when when Clary finally eliminates Valentine, I just remember feeling that we got it right. We got it right for you, Cat, and we also got it right for Alan, and I thought that that was an achievement. We on this podcast have spoken about that seen very fondly, very often, like arguably our favorite scene.

I'm dead the whole time, so I don't really do anything, but arguably our favorite scene of the only thing, the only stunt thing that happened to me was and we I think we've spoken about this already, is the rock smash. Now I'm dead, so like my eyes are closed, I don't know what's going to happen. And obviously we're not

throwing a real rock around that wouldn't be safe. It's a sort of rubberized rock that looks real and it bounced every time, and every time it would land a little closer to me, and I could hear it landing a little closer to me, and I remember Drew's cameras here and I'm dead and I open and eye were about to roll and I look at Drew and I go, it's gonna hit me in the fucking nuts this time, Like I promise you, It's going to hit me in the nuts this time. Sure enough. And you just see

I saw the footage back. You just see this like sort of side profiles. I'm dead like that, and you see my chest going, that's the only reaction I'm allowed to give. Just like there it is. I love it. I know stuff like that would happen, like so many things guys, where I would be thinking, there's always the potential for does aster, right, And the more we pushed

the boundaries, the more potential for disaster that was. And I remember too, there were times when the schedule was mad and here I'd see you guys come in, and I know what we're going to do that day. We're gonna have you guys flipping in wires. We're going to have you in close proximity where the team that's doing the rigging the pulling has to be exact. You guys have to be exact. And I remember sometimes seeing you come in exhausted where I'd be worried. I'd be worried.

I'd be thinking, man, they really have to be paying attention at this part of it, or they really need to be you know. And I just remember being in awe of your professionalism. Bear in mind this a few years ago. You're just young actors, many of you were, and I remember thinking, wow, their focus is remarkable, and

I could see they're exhausted. So there was like many many times when when I would come out of there and think, wow, a sponge rock and then and the nuts was actually not as bad as it could have been, not doing bad as bad it could have been. Yeah, I mean, I remember, it's so funny we had We had this conversation, you and I and I remember this and it and it's followed me through right, So like you know, you do a stunt and the medic comes over and goes, are you okay? And I go listen.

I was once told this, and here's what it is. If you want to do your own stunts, you can't bitch about every time you bump your knee. You can't do it because they're gonna stop you doing stunts because it's gonna slow us down. Then we're gonna be worried about whether you can do these things, and so on and so forth. And it came from the day that No, was it that rooftop fight, No, it wasn't. It was

it was the Angel rooftop fight, you remember that. And I had to do that what it's called the half flip, and I land on my back slash and we did it over and over and over, and I come out and my hip is like swollen and blue, and you went, hey, man, yeah, it's a bruise. Is a bruise, that's all good. You come to me when you've broken a leg, and I'm like, fair enough, I see tomorrow. We're in a good spot, truly, is you right? Like we gotta get if you want to. You can't go in and be like, oh, I broke

a nail. Now I can't do this, And you're like, well, you said you could. So we've prepped for everything to be in place. Now we need to get the stump performer into hair and make up and get them in and it changes everything. We need to get to a place where you trust each other. Where I trust that you have trained me thoroughly, that we've choreographed it thoroughly, that I trust Cat's going to do her job, and I trust that I'm going to do my job, and

I really do. By the end, it like it's not even by the end, by like barely three or four episodes in when we had you, I'd already started feeling that I'd already started feeling like I feel prepared for this.

I could see it happening with you guys. I so could just filling it out and finding that place in yourselves where it felt like we could do anything, you know, and the trust that we developed amongst us that we're doing stuff frequently that we're you know, because you and Cat were in the heart seat frequently, that trust spread to the rest, to the cast, so that I remember that time when we did that gag with Matt where we pulled on while he's firing the arrow back into

the mat. Remember that, and he didn't know, you know, like it was that was a stunt. I mean, you know, it was like it was something that you guys were doing, was on the level of something that you guys were doing, but he hadn't been doing a lot of that stuff, and I remember that, I remember him saying, I trust you, I trust we can do this, and he did it

so good to remember what a great shot. And when I first showed Matt Hastings, I was like, hey, dude, we can actually, I think we can watch Matt himself flying back at high speed, firing narrowly, you know, And and uh yeah. I was definitely one of those moments where trust was everything. And even though I hadn't done that much with Matt, because you guys had and you had communicated and he had seen, he was able to jump right on and do get one of the better shots,

one of those shots. When you watch it in the show, it looks like we faked it. It looks like c h I because you're like, there's no way, there's no way. You did some computers with this. It was good stunts, good camera work, good acting. It just happened. That's real life. Go back and watch it if you're listening. Okay, So, speaking of camera magic and trickery, how many times did you double people? I can think of one, and I was immensely jealous that you didn't double me. You doubled

the fucking newbie did, Yeah, you doubled will. Yes, I did. I doubled will for that fight sequence. And I remember when we first started choreographing it and and putting together the concept. I remember thinking, these kicks have to be just right, and the reason why they have to look effortless because I really was creating the jeopardy more with the sword, So it was I just needed the kicks

to be exactly right. And and because there were set extensions that are expensive visual effects wise, I knew that for a couple of the hits, the kick would have to be one inch off the performer's face. And I didn't trust most people to do that, to be honest, and not that there aren't other people the right size that could do it, but I just wanted a specific look on it. And that was purely me getting my way. I want the kick. I want the kicks to look like this, and I wanted to look like that. So

I'm doing it. And so that was a little, definitely a little, a little. I was there that day as well, and I was like, God, damn, it looks amazing. Um, okay, let me ask you a question then, So we're talking about you getting away in this little world, and you wanted the shots to be very specific, and you wanted certain things right. What a lot of people don't know about how stunts work is, we will train with you for if we're lucky, a couple of hours, we'll get

the fight scene down. We'll get it done, and then you film a previous, which a previous is an early version of the fight that we normally film in the stunt room. If we're lucky enough to have the location, then we do it on location and they send it to directors producers make sure they cover all the aspects that they wanted because very often in the script it's just like they fight. There's no specifics of what it is. It's just like these two people have a fight and

then it's handed over. Um, have you ever considered directing? Because these previouses were previous? They were incredible, like absolutely incredibly. Watched them sometimes when we were like, Darren should shoot this, like this should be done. In fact, I say, very often, more often than not, we would look at the previous and go, it needs to be shot exactly this way. This looks incredible, and not very often they were yeah, yeah,

I thank you man. I'll tell you. In the beginning, the fight scenes were written a little in a little bit more detail. And then after the powers that be started to see how Matt and I were, We're starting to get really get into cahoots and really starting to collaborate. You know, Matt would tell me, Okay, Darren, I want I would like to have a Dolly shot here. You know, let's not look over there, Let's keep it looking this way. They should enter over here and it should end over there.

That was pretty much it. I was given the freedom to create a lot of the moving movement in the staging, in the action, and that that just gave me a huge amount of experience in telling this story with the camera. So yes, in answer to your question, Um, directing has really become more and more of something that I'm interested in. And I actually very recently got to direct. I was working on Cabinet of Curiosities Miles Dale executive producer who

is also Yes, we love Miles Uh. He's an executive producer on sex Life, Netflix's Sex Life also and I had needed the first season and anyway, I got the script and it was it was very interesting sort of sequence that happened in the script and I gave me an idea about how it might be shot and it involved cars, and came up with an idea and then I pitched it to Miles and it was you know, it's Miles Dale. He's like always the smartest guy in

the room, you know. And I was very you know, and I wasn't pitching it with the thought that I would direct it. I was just pitching this concept I had with the thought that it might look cool and it might tell the story. Well yeah, so I anyway, I pitched, I pitched it to him and I ended up and I said, it's like a full on director's guild thing. It's my first credit as a director on sex Life and yes, thank you, thank you, and and

it definitely is born of what I learned totally. This is why I bring it up, right, So do you see bullet Train? And had bulletin so that I watched it and I was watching it in the fight scenes. I remember reading it and I was like, this is ambitious and the fight scenes are like really good and I was like, these are filmed really well. And then I saw an interview he was Brad Pitt stunt double on Fight Club. There you go and then they get circle back around and he ended up working with So

that's that was his background. I think his name is David David Leach, David Leach. You know what's interesting about Dave. I first met him on three hundred Um. I played one of the snow Yeah. I played one of the spartans on three hundred and as did my brother Christopher and and Hubert and Max White. We were all on that show. Oh my god. Yeah, and we met Dave and chat to Healthy who was so he originally doubled Kanu Reeves and was part of the choreography for the Matrix.

Dave Leach double Mr Smith and Brad Pitt and I met. That's where Chris and I first met them. And it was actually David Leach who ultimately helped me into the stunt coordinating position on Nikita with Maggie Q. And then Dave now has gone on to direct. He directed Atomic Blonde, Deadpool to uh, you know, he's a brilliant and so yes, it's it's just interesting that you should say that because

it was Dave and Chad. They liked the concepts that Chris and I had and they incourage us heavily to learn editing and to do more shooting, and ultimately that's what we've done. And yeah, and it ultimately lead to a different approach to the work where I was looking at much more as a director. And this was their advice. And here we are. What a small world, What a small world? Yet what a small world? Man, That's awesome. I would I like, I would do just about anything

to be directed, even if it wasn't sun stuff. Let's do pride and prejudice, just you and I will do private prejudice. Or do you do a Western Darren? Yes, yeah, yeah, I'll tell you that never was the goal in my mind to direct. It was just like learning the craft, how to tell the story with the camera like hands on,

you know. And that flowed of course from obviously if you if you're a fight choreographer, you have to think about how it's going to be shot, and you have to be cognizant of the story that you're trying to tell, and and yeah, and it just it just pays forward and pays for it and pays ford until eventually you're you're actually starting to think about it as a truly as a filmmaker, as a director, you know, And it is a trip, Like, dude, Like I remember when I

showed up for that directing day, you know, and there's like four cameras and a drone, you know, and I'm sliding cars down metal veil, you know. But it's just oh yeah, I don't know. It's like coordinating for Geermo del Toro, you know, making my little previous guys imagine and they give that to Geermo del Toro for him to look at my concept, you know, terrifying. I just imagine him like sat on his desk with his oscars around him, just like let me watch this little thing,

like fucking ship. It's the same when we send auditions off, you know what I mean, Like you send these auditions off and you know who's going to see them. You know whose eyes these are going to end up then in success and you're like, holy ship, man, this is like one of these people is like why I became an actor, and my face is going to be on his or her computer at some point, and that's like the most horrifying. It's something more awards rather than West Wash.

If you do it, Wash, you're doing it. You're like, okay, well Meryl Street might watch this, so I need to focus on, like how do I impress Meryl Street Me, Like, you don't know, do your job, and then if it works, it works, and you know what it is. You know sort of stuff. But yeah, man, just just to be

faced with that level of talent. Like I remember we're doing night Mery ally and there's a part in the movie where they where you know, the character gets hit by a car backwards and then Bradley Cooper's character stand drives over him. And so it's an old car and the back of the car is sort of steeply. It's not very slanted, it's quite steeply sloped. And I was concerned about how to make it look real with the cars hitting the guy that he's supposed to fly over

top of the car. And I thought, oh no, if it's this steep, it should hit him and he should just go flying backwards. And so I was concerned about this. I I went to see Garmo in his office and I explained this to him and he's like, humm. So he takes a piece of paper and he puts it down on his desk and he grabs a marker like a sharpie, and he draws the silhouette of the car in one stroke, exactly the same I ship you not. I was like and it and it just came out

of me. I was like, holy sh it, dude. I's like, that looks exactly like the car and it looks like that, and he's like, yes, yes, yes, what are you talking about in terms of thing you know? And I'm like, you believe I just saw this fucking guy do this. It was like it was like, one stroke, there's the car, exactly as it is. And I went back to my office and I compared it to the actual car, and you'd swear to god, the guy traced it. Yes. You have to understand, guys, that I get that from YouTube.

I would put together an action sequence or a fight, and we'll put it together and we'll rehearse it, we'll shoot the previous and then I'd be standing beside Matt at the monitor and you guys would run through it and you would just add your flavor to it, and I would become instantly poignantly aware of your talent and I'd be like, damn, I didn't see that that's cool, or like a little pause you might take, or like a little look that you might cast that just added

that I can't quantify. As a choreographer, I shouldn't see it. But the director in me, I'd be like, that's awesome. That's like that's talent. That's awesome. That's like they are wicked actors. You know, they're not just amazing athletes that can do my bidding and create wicked fights. Amazing actors who who give it the real texture, who instruct me on how to tell the stories sometimes with just a look. I learned so much, guys, I learned so much from you.

We learned so much from you as well. Like I still will go into a fight scene. Now, do you remember the three words you would say to me, all of us, Like right before especially a particularly vicious fight, Darren would come up and he talked, you know, I would talk through and the camera's gonna be here, so you know, make sure when you do this block that you don't cover too far back. You're gonna cover your face,

and you know, whatever it is. We go through our things and then he pat me on the shoulder and he go blood and guts and then send me in. And I still in my head whenever I do a fight scene. Now, I said it to myself and your voice. I go give a blood and guy see and then I'm away and then that voice needs to happen in my head otherwise it doesn't work. That's why bud is on my shoulder. So and I know this every single every single fight scene, so for you and Dean. This

one particularly is for Dean. But he and I remember this so poignantly because I had broken my collar bone right so it was the last one in particular. And he used to do the same thing. He would pat me always on this shoulder and you go, give her bud, always on that shoulder. And I didn't realize it was it was a thing until I had a broken collar bone. And he goes give her bud. And Dean's are big, like you know, pounds, just like total softly but just

this big lump of the man. And he goes give her bud, and I go, oh, Christ, And that's why it's right here. I'll show you. That's why Dean is right there on my shoulderings and be there forever. Bless you, lad, bless you lads, buddy mine day. But I have one that says not fragile on my wrist right here because That's what Dean always used to tell me. He's like, you're not fragile, because you and Dean were the people

that never underestimated me on that set. And he would tell me that every single day and every time we box and every time, you know, good day, bad day, whatever it was. And I didn't know how much that phrase meant to him until much later on. But as soon as I heard that, that immediately the only tattoo I haven't thought about for a year. It's immediately, that's amazing. Oh, that's amazing, I would say, guys, I'm still grieving him hard. We all are, yeah, and I know, I know you are.

And and honestly, it inspired a lot of change in my life for the better. And I will admit that I've I've had to wander for the last couple of years. In between work, I started to spend more and more time up north, more sort of extreme expeditions that I was taking twenty twenty days solo canoe trips, very up there with the with the bears in the caribou, you know,

and I started filming them. I started to make them into videos so that I could look at them later, and I post them on YouTube, and a lot of it has been about just processing the incredible effect that that man had on my life and on the lives of the people around me. You know, it's empowering. Now I know that we got to share a version of Dean that very few people in the world ever did and and now ever will. And I am so grateful that I was able to experience that relationship with Dean

with you guys, because you guys got him. You understood Dean, you know, even when he was standing right there behind eating a devil bay like he always seemed to be eating, you know, and and and uh, oh my god, it was just like, I'm so glad that that it was you guys, because you you understood why Dean was awesome, you really did. And uh and I'm forever, forever grateful, and I love him with all my heart. And I and I talked to Dino every day. Yeah, I talked

to him every day. And and I just want you to know that he loved you guys, like you know, when it was just him and I driving home because he thought he was going to have a ride and it's gone. And now when I'm driving him home, you know, we'd be you know, we'd be singing at the top of our lungs, listening to Pearl Jam and Sound Garden, and you know, and we'd be driving home and then

out of nowhere, he'd stop, turn the music down. He'd say, I love those kids a but just out of nowhere, you know, he would just come up with some story that something you guys were talking about, like from the heart, hundred percent. God bless him. God bless him then, And so God bless you guys for being a part of it. And and I know that whenever I talked to you, whenever we text, whenever we share, and I say I'm missing Dino, and you guys come back and say remissing

him to like I know you are. You know what I mean. And it's it's it's a comfort, it's a comfort. It took me a long time to be able to box again. Honestly, I bet long time. And I bet you know it's we are a family and we always will be. And that kind of trust and that kind of love is not something that comes easily, and it's not something that's ever going to go away. No, it isn't. And and I will say that I don't make friends that I make lots of friends, but I don't have

many close friends. But Dean was definitely that guy. And I think Dean was best friends with lots of people, and he was he was everybody loved, you know, you know, and and you know that I'll just I'll share something that you guys might not realize. I know what I'm doing out there, but still I'm a human being. And sometimes the massiveness of what it was that I would

be doing sometimes would make me nervous. And and I remember Dean would come up and he'd look at me'd be like, you got this a but remember him saying that you got this it but and he'd be like, I can see you're worried about but you got this. Like I'm I'm here, I'm fucking right here, right but and he would say that, and it would just like, you know, it would make me feel tan feet taller wood makes men use that I trust you. Yeah, maybe I do have this, yeah Jesus dude, Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And he always had a smile in his face. You know, nine times that Jesus, what time day it was, he was always Swinney. I remember when he was in that fucking fast suit and it's like wrenched in his own swear. It was like twenty pounds heavy. And he was just laughing. Man, he was just smiling all day every day. But so that guy, God bless and thank you for talking about that.

Obviously we all know. Yeah, I honestly I didn't know whether or not to bring it up, and I sort of danced around it for a second, and I was like, you know what, he was a huge part of what we did, Like every time we were up in the wire, the person making sure we didn't drop fifty deaths was deep. Oh yeah, and he would obsess about it to be like, you know, I'd be working on a budget or something.

I'd be working long after the training day and everything will have already been set up for the next day, you know, whether we were in the cloisters or wherever it was that we were shooting. And I remember sometimes just walking out to look at it and there'd be Dean. He'd be up there checking it again, you know, checking the wire one more time, checking the harness one more time. You know. It was just one of those things where

I knew that that there was legitimate love. It was legitimate love for you guys, and we were both very very aware that the faith that you were putting in us to do the extreme stuff that we did. And there was lots of extreme stuff that we did that's very hard to quantify. We could tell stories for days and days and days about different fights we did about Oh, dude, I remember you in one fight scene where you're full

on defending yourself YouTube Cat. I remember where it's like if you guys didn't get that sort out, and so often Cat, you'd have that stupid little dag and I'd be stressing about it, you know, and you guys would make the block, you know, you'd make the block, you know, and I'd feel like thank goodness, you know, and very

often do and I would talk about it. We'd be like we would both know the scares that we had where where it's like I thought Allan was going to crack him right over the head that time, you know, or you know or whatever. You know, it's like, oh my god. And there were some wire gags that I know, you guys know, they're scary. They're a little scary, and you know you got to lay back in the wires sometimes or whatever. And Dean and I when we would

talk about it after. We would always know what moments made us both so nervous, and it was always closely associated with love for you guys for trusting us and allowing us to create what we did. You know, it was so much more real than people would believe. It was so freaking real. It really was. And and I'll tell you it's been a long path to be able to talk about even just to be able to talk about Dean. There was literally a year and a half when I couldn't look back at our old videos of

fights we did. I couldn't. It's been a combination of time and professional help and working on my mental health. Um, no kidding, but same here, dude. Like it's especially like and I don't mean alien age in this, because everyone deals with grief a certain way, but men of our age especially was sort of taught to deal with grief a very different way and it's not the right way of doing it. It's not a healthy way of doing it.

And if there are men out there dealing with grief, I hope you listen to this and some small part of you goes it is okay to um to reach out and to talk to people about it. Because it's important. And I've mentioned this before and it is really important, and thank god that you you did. You know, you never know when it's going to get you, Like I was, fuck me, man, this is so like I was annoyed that this situation happened, and I got so upset by

I just like immediately started balling my eyes out. I was watching fucking Resident Evil too, and it was way too close to it happening, and right at the end made it the whole way through the movie and then boom, there's Dean's face and I'm like, okay, yep, here I go. Yeah, I'm absolutely devastated. Legs taken rad off from under you. Yeah, dude, yeah, man, Like someone kicked the back of my knees in. It

was nuts. That was awful, yeah to my Yeah. And I think that, um, that grief is definitely something people don't understand that it can literally traumatize you. And I would that that was definitely an effect for me. Um. And you know, and there was a couple of major losses, all closely connected, Like I mean, I lost Fred only

months later. Um after devastated, man, absolutely devastated my giant dog, Fred, my giant English Master Fred who was awesome, And I had them for nine years and I know that a giant dog like that generally they don't live that long.

So it was Yeah, it was incredibly difficult. And I'm very very grateful that there are resources out there to help to help with the trauma, to help with the depression that can come with from from grief and you know, enhance all of the traveling that I did, that the hardcore canee trips, close calls with bears and all the rest of it all flowed from that. Oh, I had a couple of close ones, boy, and it all flowed from that and has got me to a much more

positive place in my life. And uh, and I'm grateful. So it's there you go. You know, sometimes something that can just feel like the worst thing ever, that takes forever to recover, can actually transport you to a place where you are healthier, happier, better adjusted, you know, in much more in a in a stable sort of flow. There's hope, even when it feels like there isn't. There's hope. Yeah, absolutely, right, words, thank you. I can't think of a better way to

round this out as well, I can. I know you've got to get off and Darren, we don't want to take up any more of your time. So Darren, thank you so much for talking to us. Man. They just the little trip down memory lane and seeing your face again, it's been such a pleasure. Please please, please, thank you. It's so let's all get together and have a drink one of these days and just keep talking because I miss you, Darren, and thank you for everything you taught

us and are still teaching us. Um, there's not a day goes by that we don't that you influence our lives in one way or another. So just thank you, Thank you so much. And I want to say from my brother Chris and myself because we both sort of we definitely collaborated on the original concept of this show and we talked about it often and we think of you guys often, and it's I just love you both

and thank you so much. Thank you. Return to the Shadows is hosted and executive produced by me Dominic, Shrwood and Katherine McNamara. Our executive producer is Lingley. Our senior producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. Our producer is Hannah Harris and Kristin Familiar and our intern is sam Cats. Original music by Alex Kinzy performed by Alex Kinzy and Katherine McNamara, and the episode was mixed by Seth A. Lanski