Igniting curiosity with Sean The Science Kid

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He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Ah, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One and a member FDIC. Sometimes when someone asks me a question that's obviously not on my level, I'm like, hmm, I don't know that one. I might research when I know well that...

If I research that thing, my brain's going to turn into an oven. You could fry an egg on my head while trying to learn about the Rymanian cross-section of the relativistic blah, blah, blah. That's a great image.

I will not be frying any eggs on your head. I promise. Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist. and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. Sean the Science Kid is an internet educator and my youngest podcast guest ever.

At only 10 years old, he has a voracious appetite for learning and contagious passion for sharing knowledge. He's a master of distilling complex science concepts. If you're not thinking about it... Simply, you're not thinking hard enough. It's a take on what Einstein said. If you can't explain it simply, then you haven't truly learned it. It was a delight to talk with him and his mother.

Eunice Arachobi, about science literacy, following his curiosity, and how she helps him stay humble. He's a multifaceted child. good in almost everything. Sometimes I look at him and I'm like, did I just give birth to this?

Do you remember the first science fact that you discovered that made your brain explode with curiosity? To be honest, it was all of them. But I mean, some of the science facts that really interested me was about how this... fist-sized organ of your body made of pure muscle can pump blood throughout your body and make it do one full circle in a singular minute.

This is fascinating. Tell me when did you get interested in science? Well, it wasn't exactly a turning point. It was more of a diffusion gradient. So basically, I was a curious kid who loved science, engineering, math. All of the cool stuff. But then, slowly but surely, my molecules, out of curiosity, started to diffuse through the semipermeable membrane. what's known as curiosity osmosis, I ended up on the science side. Wow. I love that. That was not at all the answer I was expecting.

For our listeners who don't know, what's the difference between a turning point and a diffusion gradient? Imagine you're in a car and you have to pick between two options. Going straight... and turning into one lane. And the difference between a turning point and a gradient is with the turning point, you... Turn your steering wheel all the way to the other side and cause your car to be on two wheels for a second while drifting into the other lane.

while a diffusion gradient is slowly turning into the other lane. Ah, that's great. Eunice, is this what your dinner table is like? No, this is what her entire life is like. Every day of the week. Oh, that's so fascinating. So let's talk about your origin a little bit. There's a rumor that you learned to read before you were even a year old. Is this true?

Uh-huh. Do you think that 10 years ago, she would have expected her son to read before she was even a year old? No. No, I mean, most babies are struggling to walk at that point. Yes. We got to know Sean could read at nine months, and it was amazing. Yes. Eunice, what happened? Before then, we realized that...

All he wanted to do was to watch educational videos. So you know how you have a baby, you put the TV in front of them, you put Mickey Mouse and all the other stuff on it. Oh, yeah. And he wouldn't be watching those. But when the adverts come on... which is the educational stuff they're trying to promote, then his attention goes on those. I actually still have a professional rivalry with Mickey Mouse. So...

I started to switch it up for him to give him the educational stuff. And he will watch those for over two hours without blinking. So apparently he was soaking everything. One day I drove to Carter's to get him some clothes. And then when I got there and I parked, he said, Carters. So I looked back and I said, did you just say Carters? And he was quiet. No way. So I didn't say anything. Then when we got home, I showed him a Carters flyer and he said it.

again i showed him coals flyers he said it again so i told his dad i said do you know your son can read he said no way i said well let's see and i had bought him some flyers for when he grows up a little bit so i pulled them out I showed him red, he said it. I showed him blue, he said it. So that was how our journey started. That was when we got to know that we had something more on our hands and already he was a special kid.

Because we waited for 12 years before we had him after four miscarriages. Oh, my gosh. So he was already special to us. And so when we got to know that, I decided to quit working and stay at home with him. And just nurture him like that. At three, he was second grade level. Oh, my gosh. Yes. So his doctor told me he referred us to psychologists, pediatric psychologists.

And this boy at two and a half years was reading pediatric psychologists and everybody in the room were like, how old is he again? So after that consultation, we got to know that he was profoundly gifted. So we started putting in more. efforts to nurture his brain because he will learn everything. By the way, I didn't used to cry. I just used to walk up to my parents and say, I have soiled myself. Mother, I have soil. Sean, is it hard being smarter than most adults?

Yeah, sometimes when people don't know my true, my true power. When people don't know my true power, they look down on me. And I just get so... Angry. They underestimates you. I hope this isn't bad to say, but the word I was looking for was pissed. I think we can air that. It's like you have been blinded to my true mental abilities. Like...

Whenever I go to a museum, I also get kind of annoyed when some other kids get... the turn before me on like the science thing because it's like you don't actually understand what angular momentum is Well, a little healthy rivalry has fueled a lot of great science, probably from Newton to Darwin to Einstein and beyond, right? Yeah. The reason why imaginary numbers exist was actually because of a duel between two mathematicians. There we go. So we like those duels.

My colleague Samir Nur-Muhammad has published some research showing that when other people underestimate you, you feel like an underdog. And if you know they don't know what they're talking about, you become really motivated to prove them wrong. I feel like I'm hearing a little bit of that right now. Oh yeah, definitely. Okay, so a big part of, I think, achieving expertise and eventually making great discoveries is confidence, which you have a lot of. But it also requires humility, right?

You have to know what you don't know. You have to know that you're capable of making mistakes. How do you stay humble? Basically, to stay humble, I usually go and learn something that... I know that I won't get on the first try. So then I end up not feeling like I'm the top of the world and the most prestigious genius ever.

And then I just feel like a kid trying to learn something. Oh, that's great. Eunice, do you feel like part of your job as a parent is to keep Sean's ego in check? Very much. And I do that a lot. How? One thing that is with Sean is that if somebody asks him a question and he doesn't even know it. He will use his brain to analyze the question and try to answer it. So I keep telling him that it's okay if you don't know the answer.

You just tell them that, you know what? I don't know this one, but I'm going to look up for it and I'm going to research on it and then come back with an answer to you. It's okay to say that. Okay, so what I'm hearing is something similar to what new professors often face, which is you come into a classroom and a student asks you a question, and you want to show that you're an expert and...

sometimes you're more focused on giving an answer than trying to teach them how to think about the answer. And I know I had to learn, I don't have to know the answer to every question. And when I'm really secure... I can say, you know what? I actually don't know. That's a great question. Let me look into that and get back to you. Well, yeah. Sometimes when someone asks me a question that's obviously not on my level, I'm like, hmm.

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Okay, so another thing I wanted to ask you about is we live in a time where there's more scientific knowledge available than there ever has been in human history, right? It's so accessible on the internet. Yeah. But instead of becoming informed, I feel like more and more people are science illiterate. What do we do about that? Oh. So the thing is this science accessibility thing is both a blessing and a curse.

But there are a lot of people that I've met, especially in my own generation, Gen Alpha, that are not only science illiterate, but internet. Fact-checking illiterate. There are a lot of fake news out there, like... guys, NASA just proved the sun is fake, or the moon is alive. And there are a lot of people who think they're getting it from credible sources, but really are just getting some... So what do you think we can do to solve that?

would want to do is, like, take two sources that both seem pretty convincing. Scientists just designed a new particle accelerator. Or... Scientists just achieved the first fusion reactor and tell people to see which one is fake and which one is real. Which one would you believe? Yeah, I think that's a very powerful teaching method to actually show people.

First of all, how many mistakes they can make, right? How easy it is for them to mess up. This is literally exactly what I try to do with my entire channel. Show people the truth. That is shown through equations and math most of the time. Yeah, I think the compare and contrasting method of making people aware of how fallible they are and then... teaching them what are the cues and clues that differentiate truth from fiction. Great place to start.

to add to what he said one of the gifts that he has is the way he can make very complex things simple and explain it and Even right from baby, like from childhood, it started with me, making me know that there's science in everything. So I think that is a very good approach he's putting in there to help people understand that science is not...

exclusive from life. Like everything is science. Even picking up your glass and drinking, it has so much science in it. So he tries to bring literacy to the world by letting them know that science is very simple and fun. a metaphor that I like to use for this concept known as the equation utterer. If you were to carry out your daily life but were cursed with a curse that says You have to say every single science concept that you are using right now, then you would probably pass out.

I was thinking about this right at the beginning of our conversation when I asked you about diffusion gradients versus turning points, and you immediately painted the picture of driving a car. And that's something you do in so many of your videos, Sean, is you take metaphors and analogies and take very abstract concepts and bring them to life in ways that are just, one, fun, and two, easy to understand.

Is there anything you can teach us about how to be better at that ourselves? Well, there are so many things you can compare abstract concepts in science to that are real. Like... What science teachers do when they try to explain action, think of it like this. Or... Picture this in your mind. Those are the two phrases that you should be using the most when you explain things. Like quantum decoherence.

Think of it like this. If you flip a coin, while that coin is in the air, it is both heads and tails simultaneously, but any interaction with the environment... aka gravity causes it to land or decohere which means collapse the quantum system into one singular state. Wheel of Fortune and even casinos all take... quantum decoherence and unknowingly turn it into a real life concept. Wow. Oh, I've never seen decoherence in a casino before. This is a great connection for me.

I know you have a very specific career aspiration. A neurocardio surgeon. Tell me about that and how you decided on that. When I was... At the ripe old age of four, I loved anatomy. You know anatomy. The study of the inside of that meat suit. And I decided that the brain and the heart were my favorite organs. And studying them showed... That the brain and the heart are in a loop that mostly fuels the rest of the organs. Ah, that's great.

I used to want to be a neurocardiologist, but then I changed it to surgeon, because seeing organs in person... Just for me, sounds kind of cool, but also fixing organs and saving lives. Love that. What's the timeline that we're looking at? I imagine you've already started thinking about college. Let me introduce you to my life, a thesis. So first of all, I will go to high school and get a high school job at my favorite place, Chick-fil-A.

While working at Chick-fil-A and continuing my studies on how to find X, I will also be giving myself some courses to do so that in college, I can skip all the boring stuff and go right to the A- The AP classes I'll take are physics, cardiology, and neurology. Those classes will get me through my life plan. Then I'll spend some time in medical school and become a doctor. Then I'll either rent out an old hospital or build it myself. With a building team, of course.

And with the money I earned from my high school job and also my college job, I will use that money to hire a construction team. And this construction team will build my hospital called Sean's... and heart surgery center and once this hospital has been built we will start a trial run take a few of my family members into into this building, and if they need help,

We'll give it to them to test my employees' skills. Once their skills have been successfully tested, then we go on a wild ride. My business starts booming. $1 million, $2 million, $3 million. And then I will... Buy myself a few yachts, a private jet, and a mansion. And buy some things for my parents. A wheelchair made out of money. And their own mansions. But...

There has been a silent thing behind this thesis. Let's see. The SciReach Foundation. It's a foundation that I've already got and started building. And... It will donate science tools to kids and adults in underdeveloped countries, basically spreading science around the world.

With the exception of a couple of the purchases, it's a very inspiring vision. With the exception of the yachts. Yeah, I had a few notes, but I love the vision. I have to ask you. Because this show is about rethinking things. What happens if you discover there's an area of science that you love more? or an area where you can make a bigger difference? Would you consider changing paths? Yeah. Around two years ago, I got dragged by an unbalanced force that is acting upon my inertial body.

known as physics. This physics caused a redirection in my path due to an unbalanced force that is known as... Attraction. It attracted me towards it, causing my accelerations to add up to go from this path into anatomy to this path. Of physics. Max Planck and Bohr and Schrödinger and all of the cool people. Oh, so you've discovered a second love for quantum physics.

Yeah, well, actually theoretical physics because I love thinking and drawing and doing all of these thought experiments. Well, this reminds me of... what I think is my favorite video that you've done. I thought it was so profound. It was the video where you talked about being made of stardust. Do you remember that one? Yeah, the Sunday motivation.

People look at the sky and think, oh my gosh, the vastness of the universe makes me feel so insignificant. But the real ones say, I am the result of 13.7 billion years of evolution. I am a thermodynamic miracle and a fighter. entropy i am made of literal stardust that has been cultivated with hydrogen and helium bonding for millions of years i am the universe looking back at itself and i am a blessing

I was so moved by your description of that. You mentioned the expansion of the universe. And I actually have a question for you about this. One of the things we're doing is we're inviting our past guests to pose a question to our current guests on the show. And last night, I got an email from one of our past guests. He's an astrophysicist. I'm getting excited. I don't know if you've heard of him. His name is Saul Perlmutter. He won a Nobel Prize for...

discovering the accelerating expansion of the universe. Does that ring a bell? Ooh, yeah. So here's what Saul wants to know. He wants to know, what's more fun for you? Learning something new about the world. that makes sense out of something that seems weird, or learning about a way that we can catch the universe doing something really bizarre that's hard to explain. Pretty sure the universe thing, I mean...

Explaining weird stuff is basically what science already does, but finding a way to see something that science hasn't seen yet is orders of magnitude cooler for me. That's a great answer. I think that's what Saul would pick too. Love that. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi-agent tech AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge, and it's simplifying car shopping.

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Sean, it's time for a lightning round. Are you up for that? Let's go. What is your favorite science fact? Did you know that you have 50% of the genes of a banana? Of a banana? Yeah. Wow. Okay. What is your favorite lesson that your mom has taught you? Well, all of them. What is your favorite? Patience is key. Oh, that's a good one for someone who likes to work so quickly. What would you say to kids who think science is boring?

Well, I would probably tell them about how they're using signs right now if it was in a formal setting. If it was in an... informal setting. Like the playground? Yeah, like the playground. Come here. Just kidding. Did you know that you're actually using science right now by swinging on that swing? You cannot escape science. It is everywhere.

Next question. If you could invite anyone to dinner, who would you most want to meet? Neil deGrasse Tyson or God himself. What is something you changed your mind about recently? not thinking about a shoe known as Heelys. So yeah, I've gone on kind of a Heelys craze for the past three days. You just, how did he change his mind on that? I always tell him that you always have to prepare for if it doesn't happen. And that is one thing that he's struggling with and he's working on. He told me that...

He's changing his mind about it, but I know in his mind he's still expecting the Heelys. Okay, I might want to change my favorite lesson too. expect if it doesn't happen honestly because that happens more than patience is key yeah it's like hey mommy can we get this thing sure maybe at the end of our trip sometimes i intentionally delay the things he's You're telling him before me? Yes, because it's something that I didn't want you to know.

I intentionally delay just to help him to work on his expectation. Delay of gratification. Of course. This is how you build willpower. Sean, you know the marshmallow test, right? No, not yet. Oh, this is one of the most famous studies in psychology. You take three- and four-year-old kids, and you put a marshmallow in front of them. And they have a choice. They can eat it now, or if they can wait a little while.

they get two marshmallows. And it's a little test of whether you can have patience, right, and exercise self-control. And it turns out that the kids who wait for the second marshmallow end up getting better grades in school 10 years later. And they get higher SAT scores because apparently they have really learned how to be in charge of their own impulses. And maybe sometimes waiting is a skill.

I would say, I won't eat the marshmallow. But three-year-old, four-year-old me would find the nearest microscope and look at it. And next he would find the nearest vacuum chamber and... drop the marshmallow in it to see some more scientific effects. Well, what I love about that is this is one of the techniques that... kids who succeed at the marshmallow task end up using is they change the meaning of the marshmallow. I don't think anyone in the original studies went...

the science route, but there were kids who would bounce the marshmallow like a ball or they'd try to change its shape just to make it less tempting to eat. I love your idea of looking at it under a microscope. You know. Wildly creative. So Eunice, you're setting up some marshmallow tests for Sean. Oh, definitely. I try hard and I work on it. She set up some marshmallow tests without me knowing. That's the best kind.

Going back to the lightning round, what is a question you have for me? Well, I might want to give you like a thought experiment. So I made my own version of the trolley. The same setup. Trolley is going towards one person. But this one person has the cure to cancer. And... If you divert the track from the cancer-curing person, then it will hit... five people who know how to make fusion energy commercial. Would you kill fusion energy or kill the cure to cancer?

Wow, that might be the toughest version of the trolley problem I've ever heard. Okay, so normally when psychologists study the trolley problem, we find that... People are really sensitive to errors of commission, but not errors of omission. So they don't like the idea of pressing the switch, right, to change the track because then they feel like they killed someone. But if they don't press it, they feel like they're not responsible.

Either way, they're making a choice. Yeah, it's like the bystander effect. Exactly. Your version adds a layer, though, of trying to compare what are the benefits of curing cancer versus what are the benefits of fusion. I don't think I'm qualified to answer that. I think what I'd want to know, though, is how discoverable is each of those, right? So the history of scientific discovery is full of multiples, right?

Multiple scientists stumbling onto the same idea around the same time. And so presumably, if one person knows how to cure cancer now, there's somebody else soon who's going to figure that out. But then the same is true for fusion. So I guess the question is, which one is harder to discover? And then which one has more benefit in terms of the number of lives it would save?

If we're talking about number of lives, then I would divert the lever to the fusion energy people. But I'm thinking, which one would have a better impact to the scientific community? The cure to cancer would be easier to find because we already know a lot about cancer. But fusion energy, sure we've created one, but we still... don't exactly know how to make it commercial. So thinking scientific community-wise, I'd kill the cancer guy. But thinking population-wise, the fusion.

That's such an interesting way to analyze it. I love making trolley problems that cause people to spontaneously combust. That's great. Okay. Final question.

We started this conversation with curiosity, and I want to end it on curiosity. So in psychology, there are two kinds of curiosity. There's deep curiosity. where you really want to know the answer to a question, and you keep digging further and further to try to find it. And then there's broad curiosity, where you want to know about a lot of things, and you keep looking wider and wider.

And Sean, you clearly have both. And I'm just curious about how you think about the balance of the two and when you go broad and when you go deep. And Eunice, how you think about balancing those two for Sean? My broad curiosity starts when I feel like I don't have anything to learn. So then, broad curiosity initiates. I go on YouTube, Instagram, where I can find learning stuff. Until...

You pounce on something. Yeah. And you're like, yes, I'm going to dig into this. The word is like, my gaze stops. My gaze halts. Whoa. And it focuses on that one thing I decide to dig more into it. Direct curiosity initiated. This causes me to dig, dig, dig deeper until I find a golden nugget of something that I really like. And bam, new interest found.

Sean, you just coined my new favorite phrase. Bam, new interest found. Yes. That's a line we need in the world more. I gotta put it on a t-shirt or something. You should. I think you just coined it. It's beautiful. Eunice, did you want to add anything there before we wrap? Sean is, let me tell you a little secret. At three, he will learn everything.

So I had to direct him. And I remember the psychologist we visited told me that I had to make a conscious effort to get him to play. So we had to play as an effort. Oh, yeah. Where kids, you have to beg them to stop playing, right? I had to beg mine to play. Wow. She would use to take me to the park and instead of going to the playground like a normal kid, I'd be like, woman, you're wasting my time. And then read a book or something.

You're wasting my time. Sean, that's the whole point of play, to waste time and enjoy it. Yeah. Well, I would just add also that serendipity is a huge part of scientific discovery. And so many of the great innovations throughout history have come from scientists just playing around, right? And saying, I wonder what would happen if... And I don't want you to lose that sense of play as you get older. Yeah.

The scientific method is play around and find out. Well, this has been an absolute joy. Eunice, I can't thank you enough for coming on and bringing Sean. And Sean... You're my favorite science teacher on the internet. Thank you. That was the most fun. Bam! New interest found. That's my biggest takeaway from Sean. Exploring your existing interests expands your knowledge. Developing new interests enriches your life. Our technical director is Jacob Winnick. And our fact checker is Paul Durbin.

Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hilash, Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hans Dale Hsu and Alison Leighton Brown. I don't think I'm a fan of human cloning, but I might make an exception for Sean. How would you feel about being cloned? I'd have someone that gets me, you know?

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