Inside the Curriculum & Assessment Review: What Changed, What Didn’t – And Why

David, what can you tell me about the curriculum and assessment review? It's very worthy. It's a great effort, but it's a stranger to ambition. To rethinking education. Oof, I like it straight in there with a zinger. So let's um let's introduce today's two guests. We're very honoured to be joined in this episode by two of the two of the esteemed panelists from the Curriculum and Assessment Review.

Lisa O'Loughlin is the principal and CEO of Nelson Colm College Group with extensive leadership experience across the further education sector. And one thing that we will do in this conversation is focus in. on the sixteen plus recommendations in the car in the curriculum and assessment review, which have not received as much attention as some of the other recommendations. Lisa has been based in Greater Manchester in my native north west.

for the last decade She chaired the Greater Manchester's Colleges Group and worked with the Merrill Combined Authority to develop an integrated technical education strategy. for the region. So Lisa really knows her unians and is very, very experienced in this in this um world of um further education and post-16. And we're also joined by John Hutchinson, a former podcast guest who I've known for many years.

John is the director of curriculum and teacher development at the REACH Foundation. Very interesting group of schools where he supports schools and trusts to build cradle to career provision. and to provide leadership pipelines through regional head teacher programmes. John previously worked and to help establish the Oak National Academy and he's advised the Department for Education over the past decade, including on the early career framework.

So two really interesting guests. Um I'm very much looking forward to hearing what they have to say. Do you have any further comments or thoughts, David, before we dive in?

No, I I I think uh that it's a really as I said, worthy review. Um it it's a great piece of work in many ways. But what they've done is they've built in the constraints so no one else has to. And I think that shows through in in the recommendations that have been made. And I think the argument will be that that's pragmatic and realistic and recognises what the profession can cope with. But um I think maybe we need more change than this report offers.

Mm. So after this after we record this uh short introduction, our dear listeners and perhaps even viewers Uh David and I are going to record a a short sort of like review of twenty twenty five episode Where we will touch upon some of these questions in more detail. But for now, let's dive into this fascinating conversation about the curriculum and assessment review with Lisa O'Loughlin and John Hutchinson. Hope you enjoy the show.

Lisa O'Loughlin and John Hutchinson, welcome to the Rethinking Education podcast and welcome back in your case, John. Hello, it's good to it's good to be back again. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. You're very welcome indeed. And congratulations on on what what would we what how would you describe what just happened? Congratulations on

the publication of the curriculum and assessment review. How how how how yeah, what what does that feel like? Just like your initial feelings of of just like what it feels like to get it out there. Go on, Lisa. How are you feeling? How am I feeling? I I I would say incredibly proud of it. I think there's uh an enormous amount of work. It's a bit of a mammoth task reviewing curriculum from key stage one to key stage five.

It's uh you know, that's a lot of work, a full year's work for a quite a number of people. Um and I can't I'd I'd be lying if I didn't say relief as well, getting to the end of that. Yeah.

D do you know what I I feel like I fell in love with like the profession all over again. Um it's a bit soppy, but like Becky was obviously very clear that that the process that this process was going to be consultative and respectful of the of the profession and so we spent a lot of time in listening mode and it just sort of reaffirms for me, I sort of felt like

We don't deserve s the school leaders and teachers and wider staff. Th we're in a moment, aren't we? I know that James, you especially have been writing about this. We're in we're in a tricky moment. And just in every corner of the country there are just these wonderful people who are just throwing absolutely everything at making at making kids like experience as good as it can possibly be. And we w and we heard from so many people and they didn't always agree on how.

But so many people who were absolutely committed to making sure that kids just have a great experience at school and and come out the other side with the stuff that they need.

I think just on that, we were all so really overwhelmed and impressed by the young people we met because and actually they they are you shouldn't be surprised but they constantly surprise you don't they with the level of um in intelligent thought they're given to, you know, how the curriculum could be changed and how it could be modified.

i sicrhau'r defnyddio'r prinsiple sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n

They were they were a delight, yeah. Delight to me. The kids are all right, aren't they? They've they've got it. I think I often feel that we should just step back because they they are just across the detail on so many so many of these pre problems that we're wrestling with.

So so we've we've gone in at the deep end there. Uh can we just maybe pull back a little bit and just like would you mind to just introduce yourselves to our listeners? uh just say a little bit about the work that the work that you do and then we'll get we'll get in I've got I've got some sort of process questions about how the how this process Words.

how the panelists were appointed and all of that. But j before we get to that, just like who are you and what do you do and where are you? So Lisa, do you want to go first? I think I believe you're in my native Lancashire, are you? I am and I thought I detected an accent that I recognised. Yeah, so I'm Lisa Lochlin and I'm I'm the principal and chief executive of East Lancashire Learning Group.

Some of you may know it um by its previous name which is Nelson and Cone College Group. We've just rebranded. Rydw i wedi gweithio yn y sector yng Nghymru yng Nghymru yng Nghymru yng Nghymru yng Nghymru yng Nghymru yng Nghymru yng Nghymru yng Nghymru I'm now back in Nelson, in beautiful East Lancashire.

My teaching career was the other end. Uh so I I was a primary school teacher and taught in key stage one and and and in key stage two and and taught for most of my career in schools a an all through school, so a school that had children from two to eighteen. So I was lucky enough to also teach a little bit in our in our secondary and in our sixth form.

And then uh a couple of uh uh years ago I moved across our school, opened a a foundation, the Reach Foundation, and I'm now the regional director in the east of England.

the sort of uh cradle to career experience that children and families have. So trying to build uh greater links between primary and secondary, but also the broader like community ecosystem that children exist within and uh schools acting as kind of civic anchor institutions to to bring a bit more coherence to that full system around each child so that they can e experience success uh right and consistency right the way through. their that kind of time in education and beyond.

Mm, thank you. I remember we spoke quite a bit about the cradle to career thing when you came on. So if anyone's interested in that, um go back and listen to that episode with John, in which I believe we we we framed that discussion as agreeing uh disagreeing agreeably

It was like a forerunner for the rest is politics, I think. And yeah, yeah, we sh we we should we should really get a profit share, shouldn't we? Yeah, so so yeah, thank you for that. And so so yeah, I've got some I've just got some sort of process questions to start with, if I may, just about the about like how this how the panelists are appointed. D how w uh were you are you headhunted? Was there an application process?

How does this work? Is it like a paid sabbatical? Like just before we s we started recording, Lisa was saying that you feel like you've sort of just finished a full time job and you've gone back to your normal life. So like what was actually involved in this? How many hours a week? How long did this Take up of your lives in total.

Um John, do you wanna do wan do you wanna start with with this one? I'll try and answer as many of those questions as you can uh as I can. So just after the general election, uh um Secretary of State invited Becky Francis um to chair the review and um Becky and uh Bridget Phillipson set out the the terms of reference uh for for the review in terms of the

Um and then uh shortly after that uh Becky sort of compiled her panel. So it wasn't an application process. Becky uh I I worked with Becky on the early career framework uh back in 2018 and kind of have known her since then and uh Becky was keen to bring uh a kind of breadth of

uh experience, uh uh kind of representation from across obviously key stage one to key stage five. But also I think it's probably fascinating so uh like some some diversity of views as as as as well um and and sort of asked asked each of us at the start of the process to maintain our convictions but but also an open an open mind um as we kind of lent into some of the tensions that that are that are with represented across across the profession.

uh would would sort of allow me to skip meetings and and my colleagues would would would very kindly sort of step in for responsibilities because it it was quite intensive. We kicked off in August. last year um with a sort of a a series of meetings to kind of launch launch it and then we we met like really quite regularly, um sometimes weekly. And there were, as you can imagine, lots of documents to read in between those meetings.

um lots of opportunities to go out and as Lisa said at the start, speak and hear from from uh from right across from the profession, from across the country. there was the the the flurry of activity around sort of preparation for the publication in September to to sort of November time and then publication in November and now we're free.

I see. And and are you sort of like um each given different areas?'Cause it's such a vast like Lisa said, it's like key stage one to key stage five, looking at different subject areas. Super super wide ranging. Are uh are you each of you sort of given like areas of speciality that you that you hone in on? So how it worked, I mean the kind of...

Mae'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r learning about each other, learning about all aspects of um the curriculum from that key stage one to key stage five. Rydyn ni'n gwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â llawer o'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau'r profiadau

you know, for me for example, wasn't in the post sixteen space. But because of the amount we were doing and because of yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw. Felly, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna, yna.

Yeah, I see. Thank you. Okay, so I I have one more about the process and then I'll hand over to David. So it's but you know, speaking of the scale of the task.

You know, so like the the um the call for evidence, the origin the initial call for evidence was like it was a massive survey. There was something like fifty open text questions and each of them was sort of like the the field was like that big, it was like you were expected to write like par a paragraph and each and you know, I did I did um a submission with um for Orcy Cambridge or I helped with one.

And it was just just to do one was like an absolutely massive undertaking. It took days and days and days of like fine tuning. It's there's a lot and obviously you don't necessarily have to answer every single question. But I can only imagine that you were just like deluged with like I don't know how many millions I don't know if you even have a figure on it, like how many millions of words you must have

been m must have received and I was just wondering like how where do you begin with that? Like where do you begin with a with a text corpus of that size? How did you go through through that stuff and and sort of summarize it and pick out the the the salient points.

So seven thousand responses, including as you say, some organizational responses, and you're absolutely right that there's this tension of uh making a form uh that feels comprehensive enough for organizations like R.C. Cambridge to feel like they can submit all of the evidence that they have uh professionally accumulated, but then also not feeling so overwhelming that

a year five teacher f uh feels like they they they couldn't possibly complete it. And so the the kind of the trade off was a a comprehensive form with with free choice to just ignore sections and and and and and questions. um and and that's where we landed at and we were very uh grateful, as you say, to receive um so many responses from from the profession on on curriculum and assessment across the age ranges.

And then that as you say, like that gives um a a ton of like really, really useful data and information that can actually be used at in in in lots of different ways. for example, if there was a specific problem that was identified uh through the through the the pro through the process of the the review, then we could uh target in and in more depth uh select particular responses from p for example a representative organisation uh that is focused entirely on that particular

area or those areas. But then there's also the the process of uh of of kind of doing the the the qualitative analysis of that and the the DFE commissioned and um uh uh professionals who specialize in that work to to kind of process in in industry standards. And I and I'm pretty sure that that that some of those

technical reports and summary reports were published alongside the interim and and and final reports. Those who are uh have a special sort of a professional interest in the technical elements can can sort of dig in to see that. And then it means that we're then also provided with

um those key themes, summaries and and messages. Oh, I see. So there was some sort of external like research organization that was that was brought into like to to Right in their way through that and to pull out the th the key themes and what have you.

And I but we we also had access to the full database. So for example, in areas where you uh have a particular specialism and wanted to really get under the skin of it, you could actually deep dive into those areas. So So you were but you could actually focus on those specific subjects and themes that you were you were focusing on. So yeah, it was it it was possible to do both and marry marry off the two.

I'm really fascinated by this whole discussion now because it it It feels a bit like there's there's a book called The Wager. Which is the teal of a ship? which has effectively wrecked out in South America and and it Besieged by waves from Cape Horn, it's got currents coming at it, it's got wind blowing it in a variety of directions. And that's the kind of image I'm getting about this: that you've got this massive volume. of opinion. You've got this incredible cacophony of voice.

you know, of seven thousand times fifty plus the differing voices within the group. And it strikes me that in order to deal with that there needs to be something that kinda keeps you anchored and keeps you steady. So there there need to be some you know almost inbuilt ideas and I would imagine that there also have to be some kind of constraints that are there. Because otherwise the the process that you're engaged in would be simply overwhelming.

And and there's then that fascinating thing like we're in listening mode, but we're in listening mode against this background. of ideas, parameters and constraints. So so so what were they? What were the big the big ideas, the big parameters, the big constraints that you dealt with throughout? I I love the heroic picture you paint and I wish it were that I'm gonna develop that further.

Rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny. ac yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â phanel ymwneud â phanel ymwneud â phanel ymwneud â phanel ymwneud â phanel ymwneud â phanel.

but also the probably the the the deepest underpinning anchor I think in that whole in that whole kind of structure was that the review would be really evidence and data informed. So yw, mae'n ymwneudio, mae'n ymwneudio, mae'n ymwneudio'n ymwneudio, ond mae'n ymwneudio'n ymwneudio'n ymwneudio'n ymwneudio'r data. yn ymwneud â'r hyn. Mae'n ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hynny'n ymwneud â'r hyn.

Um And obviously as you go th as you go through the process, so that's as you kind of gathering and making decisions about the problem definition. and and and not fixing what what isn't broken as well, so that y you know, not you know, is there any perfect curriculum? I question whether there is, probably not. ond yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n.

that the that perhaps there are bigger challenges to focus on and make sure that we we get a an effective solution for, you know, in the interests of opening up those routes and not creating barriers for young people, I suppose.

I love that. And I love the way that you started off and saying that one of the key principles was high standards for all, as if that wasn't contentious. Because, you know, fundamentally it is one of the things that's changed the system. was that the the Govian Revolution, if you like, was entirely committed to a concept of high standards, based almost entirely on attainment.

And what I think your review has done is it's actually changed the standards. So you've introduced elements in the curriculum and attributed an importance to them that that didn't exist previously. So I think when you talk about high standards for all, it'd be interesting. to know what you meant by that. Is that about high standards in international comparisons in terms of attainment? Is it high standards in terms of education of the whole child?

Is it high standards in terms of educational destinations, destinations beyond schools and so on? I mean w what what are the high standards that drove you? Yes to all of those is is the answer to us

Yeah. So it's been it's been twenty one minutes and I haven't done anything controversial yet, so so I'll do it. I'll I'll kick us off. Let's defend Michael Gove, shall we? Uh look, uh we we we Over the last sort of twenty years actually, over successive governments, we have seen uh a rising of standards on those international ranks.

And so by by that you you're you're right that it's relatively narrow narrowly defined. We have Pearls, Tim's, PISA, and they they tend to measure um more easily measurable things. Obviously, like those they they're also measures of of of often.

uh broader educational goals like like belonging and and and pupils sort of uh uh well being. Um and and we we have seen a a a sort of national rise in in in those standards and and If we're if we're trying to be sort of as non ideological as possible and and just sort of a take a it's good if if kids are learning lots of stuff, that's good, um then that's something to be celebrated and and potentially even protected.

But what I think, David, to your point of what does high standards for all mean is if if we're seeing those results. And essentially what we're getting is the highest attaining sort of forty percent of kids kind of like propping up those results at the expense of um some like other groups of children. then that's not a fully comprehensive high standards for all system. And I think that there I I think that there was broadly agreement that w like

school is more rigorous, uh qualifications are are are more challenging and children are largely rising to those. But if you're somebody like me, found learning relatively easy was going to do GCSE A levels and then university and enter a graduate job. The education system works really quite nicely for me. Uh like it's it's set up in my interest. I I think that what we've learnt over the last decade or so is that

is that our education system does like w whilst it works well for for for me, I'm only about, what was it, forty two percent of people or something, uh Lisa? We had only about forty two percent of the population or something sort of takes that route. And so we we can't set up an entire education system just for that forty two percent route. We need a a a a a

high quality pathways for other people. Now the big bear trap along the way is that you by by saying we're going to be more comprehensive and and and introduce potentially more optionality or uh uh sort of uh alternative sort of uh qualifications or routes pathways earlier that you can unintentionally actually limit opportunities and choices for children and and and young people and

ymwneud â llawer o'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hynny.

I think, as John said, the evidence, if you take those international comparisons, is absolutely there in support of... a knowledge rich curriculum and and and but we have to recognise that that is a proportion of students ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl.

Rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n

A-levels and T-levels. Now again, as John said, depending on which way you cut the data, I think about 25 per cent, o'er all, o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'er o'

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. ac yn ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd ymwneud â'r ffordd 16 also has attempted to

provide something for for those young people who are not necessarily going to achieve the GCSE by the end of compulsory education. So that I when when we say high standards for for all, it's recognising that there are there were successes. in some of the curriculum that's been introduced over the uh previous years, but also it's not necessarily been successful for everyone, and therefore there are there are other things that we needed to do.

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I think all of that is is absolutely fascinating. And I think what we'll do is we'll kind of almost part this big discussion. because I think there's a lot of detail that we'd like to go through and then come back in a sense. and and pick these up again in terms of the responses to the report, if that makes sense to everyone. So that takes me into really James's fundamental area, which is Orasy. And and as he said, Orasy Cambridge were absolutely on tenter hoop.

um as as it didn't r or see didn't receive a single mention in the interim report, and now suddenly um Jeff Barton would argue that alongside the R Orosy is is the big winner through the report. And and James's argument is that that, alongside the scrapping of the e-back, will will will just make a huge difference to kids' lives. Is is that something that you would agree with as as people involved in the

I'm gonna let John talk about Orsey but I'll come in about arts if that's okay,'cause I'm from an arts background. Absolutely. I'm loving the specialism. I think it's great. John. Yeah. Orasy is one of those areas of school and and and education um which kind of has this Universal agreement that it's absolutely crucial.

And when we think about the skills that that children need to flourish in work but also just in life, the ability to express yourself and uh the uh ability to articulate uh your your views compellingly, these are things that are prizightly by employers but also enrich your kind of uh personal. So there's kind of broad agreement that this is a kind of a good thing. Um And then you get the question of, well, what does that mean for

a national curriculum or an assessment uh sort of ecosystem. And there's maybe a bigger philosophical point, David, on kind of what should and shouldn't a national curriculum do? What should and shouldn't an assessment system do? uh uh i in in one th there's an argument that could be made th that um uh a national curriculum should be incredibly prescriptive. Every single kind of knowledge statement and task that a child should do is is is kind of set out so you have ultimate

coherence and a and a guaranteed entitlement no matter where you study across the the the the country. That's kind of one extreme. And then the other extreme would be How dare you tell me as a headteacher or a teacher uh a a sentence that I should utter, I'm best placed, I know my children uh best and what's what's right for them.

I think that we uh sensibly take take something of a middle ground nationally and say that there should be an overarching framework that does set out key areas, objectives, aims. um as well as specifying content at what feels like the right level of kind of detail that still allows for teachers and leaders to

to to make the necessary um adaptations, contextualization and curriculum making uh within the school, because that's where the curriculum is really made by teachers in classrooms and by leaders as they as they plan. And Orasy, although universally kind of accepted as this good, uh I think suffered from this, well, okay, although it's good, how do you teach it? How do you assess it?

what are the kind of components where you might sequence it and if we can't write that down on a piece of paper, then uh it shouldn't be in the the the the national curriculum. And I think what we also really wanted to do is avoid a kind of tokenism to ORIC, where you, for example, introduce a speaking and listening task at key stage four, where kids do a three minute presentation and uh kind of

teachers and leaders can feel like, Great, we we'll do that in the sort of week before Christmas and then that's that ticked off. We've done our speaking and and and listening. And so we took time over the course of the of the year to to consider how how best to um emphasise and underline and reintroduce that importance of OSC and

Jeff's work was obviously with the OSE Commission was was tremendously helpful in that. And our final recommendation of an RC framework alongside the reading and writing framework. we hope will mean that there is that Orasy is is interwoven Throughout the curriculum, uh right through children's entire experience at school, um, across all subjects.

obviously with that special status in English in particular, so that it's something that that that teachers and leaders can feel confident to be spending time on, uh sort of whatever age and subject they uh are teaching children. And and I think there's a a real uh a real argument to be made there that if children are allowed to articulate their thinking in maths it it takes away from the binary nature of it.

And I think what we've been successful in doing in maths in this country is getting people through maths exams. But we've not necessarily been equally successful in creating a generation of mathematicians.

And so there's, you know, I think there are arguments that go way beyond English and I think it's interesting because You know, one of the arguments should be made is that what you've done... is to give the Bullock report from nineteen seventy four or whatever, the kiss of life, that suddenly bullocks at CPR and lives and breathes again in terms of influencing the correct

But it's more than that, I think. I think you've done more than that, and I think you deserve that. credit and respect for so doing. Um it's a bit like reading one of these sequential novels, because I I want to continue with your chapter and I want to continue with the Odyssey chapter. But I also am dying to get on and hear what Lisa's got to say about the arts. Lisa.

Rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny. I'm talking about a key stage four now. The take-up of arts hasn't really dipped that much over the years. So when you talk about pure art and design as a subject, Mae'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw. yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r

specific subjects. And we wanted to do something about that. And uh, you know, clearly I I think there are a lot of people celebrating the removal of the e pack. Um Rydyn ni'n mynd yw'n mynd yw'n mynd yw'n mynd yw'n mynd yw'n mynd yw'n mynd yw'n mynd yw'n mynd yw'n mynd yw'n mynd. um subsequently uh a as part of Progress Aid. So so actually that's that's actually a a a real a real achievement I think.

Um but what was happening also post sixteen I think because of the narrowing of focus on just pure arts, if you will, or fine arts is what really i it would be described as Byddwn wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'

yw'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n ymwneud â'n higher education institutions actually accepting students straight from an A-level art. you subscribe to the arts education for all in you know i in its own right a as an education as an important part of our broader education.

And I think what these recommendations do is um open up the possibility and actually actually promote I think if you look at the post 16 recommendations, and we're kind of jumping around now, we're not really sequential at all. Rydyn ni'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n

large V levels, particularly in arts subjects. And that that is absolutely critical to supporting effective pedagogy in arts. Um because, you know arts uh study at post sixteen is about yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw

Rydyn ni'n ddefnyddiol ac roedden ni'n ddefnyddiol ac roedden ni'n ddefnyddiol ac roedden ni'n ddefnyddiol ac roedden ni'n ddefnyddiol ac roedden ni'n ddefnyddiol And m more importantly, young people who want to study arts are definitely the winners in the uh one of the winners in the report.

Really important because there is, you know, as you say, uh massive areas of welcome for for the work that you've done. John, you're trying to come back in. Yeah, I think that there is there just on on on just a little bit more on on like the probably the probably two levels. That you you're right, there was the e bac was introduced as a measure, uh as as an incentive or a disincentive, whichever way you look at it, for for schools.

get kids to choose particular subjects. So we we um within our terms of reference we we were committed to a broad and balanced curriculum up to sixteen. We think that that a good thing. It's it's quite unusual internationally to say we're what we're not going to do is say at a

eleven or twelve or fourteen, you know, you kind of make your choice and then and then lie in your bed. Um we we're gonna continue to give we're gonna continue to give children right up to sixteen that kind of breadth of experience. But we do say You know, well kids at fourteen can have some choice, right?

And the eBAC, I suppose, was was introduced to say, but make the right choices and the right choices are this particular suite of of subjects. And that was well intentioned, those subjects are are associated with with higher earnings and and and and some some other things. But I think one thing that's worth saying is even if you full throatedly agreed with the eBAC, its intentions

uh and it and it is a policy. It simply failed on its own terms. Uh there was an expectation from the Department for Education That we would have 75% of children taking it by 2020 and up to 90% by 2025. It got to 40%. almost immediately and then stayed there forever. It it it simply wasn't incentivized. The schools were simply saying, no, we're not going to make children take these subjects that they really, really don't want to to take.

ac fe wnaethon nhw'n ei wneud, fe wnaethon nhw'n ei wneud, fe wnaethon nhw'n ei wneud, fe wnaethon nhw'n ei wneud. So it wasn't serving that uh need anyway. But I think the other thing of like the next so there's something on incentives and giving children the opportunity to make the choices that they want to make. um which the ebac removal should hopefully do while still protecting that core kind of like academic suite of subject.

There's something about like the the as Lisa said, the content and the pedagogy, which was a concern that some of the arts subjects, had uh there was a kind of a tail wagging the dog situation where they they weren't recognizably the the kind of subject that they purported.

Drama would be a good example of this. Drama is a performance profession where to do the subject, you do it. You don't write about it, you don't read about it, you perform uh drama, you appreciate plays and there were and and those so there was there was also I think we've we've tried to make some recommendations sy'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n mynd.

a kind of uh inherent validity of each of those subjects so that the art subjects really are arts subjects.

Right, this is seamless because um it's such a lovely pathway intercess. And I got a row'cause I'm Moonlight and I've already done I've already done a podcast about the review but but with outsiders if you like, um people commenting on and I got a row because I was consistently referring to it as the curriculum route. ac yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n

And and I think that's interesting that assessment doesn't feature to nearly the same extent in in the review. Why is that?

Uh so uh there are recomm there are specific recommendations to to off call and there are specific recommendations around um uh assessments uh uh at each key stage and um um and post sixteen. So so we we do make actually Quite strong recommendations, for example, reforming the the GPS test at Key Stage Two and accessibility arrangements at at Key Stage One around the assessment objectives. at key stage four for different subjects.

So so I think that that there there are strong recommendations on on assessment. Th generally speaking though, the it it it is the the curriculum the national curriculum as a document is more agile than an assessment system. And by by what I mean by that is if you want to redraft the uh program of study or the particular content domain, then you are redrafting a a a document that we can then issue to schools to say this is the stuff that you're that you're teaching.

if you want to redesign a qualification, if that if that's what's kind of meant in terms of uh kind of a stronger or or or or more um uh comprehensive sort of like assessment recommendations, it it takes a very long time to to to to write a new qualification. It has to be written, it has to be it has to be tested. Uh you need like sufficient sample sizes and and those sorts of things. And so you'd be making a recommendation for for actually for sort of four or five years.

Down the line potentially. Um and so that doesn't mean that that's off the table. It just means that to pull that lever, it it it takes a much, much longer time and the the the benefits that could potentially come from that are not going to be felt for. For quite a long time. And and so it it's one that's probably taken more cautiously. And I suppose the last point is.

GCSEs especially are they they they are they are a very respected qualification and w w w In terms of one of the principles of the terms of reference of of kind of not destabilizing the system, we we also need to be we also need to be careful to to kind of maintain the kind of like confidence and and currency that those qualifications have for children because it it

Th that that's kind of what kids have in their back pockets, right? When they when they finish study at sixteen or when they finish uh pocket and we are in the actually desirable position at the moment that that those those qualifications do have currency with with with kind of the broader public and so we need to tread quite lightly on on on that because anything that could potentially be stabilized that could have a knock effect for the whole system.

It it's really interesting because uh, you know, arguably what you've just done is gone through a really bureaucratic view. of assessment in terms of qualifications and labels and so on. And the reality is that the national curriculum has been unteachable and undeliverable for years. and almost every single A level or G C S E is probably undeliverable.

in terms of the syllabus or whatever. And what people do is they they design around assessment. They you know, if you're teaching for A levels, you look at the questions that have been asked you look at the patterns, you look at all of these and effectively you teach to the test. and and you can go through that process, you know, constantly. You can see it in Scotland, you can see it in England. Um what nails curricular change is assessment? it if if we see that something is going to be measured

people will make sure it's covered. And that's one of the things that's narrowed the curriculum, not simply the bureaucracy of assessment, but the nature of assessment itself. And and I think there's something really important. about recognizing how vital it is. So for example, if we talk about ORIC, but we don't use ORIC in terms of the assessment programs that we use.

then it's likely that the theoretical value of RC won't necessarily be translated into the hard currency of it because people will still be talking about what kids have got in their back pocket. Mm, people will still be talking about the currency of the qualification. in terms of its title and status rather than its content. And we know perfectly well that the past mark for most national examinations are j gerrymandered to get as close as possible to the distribution of results that we need.

we know that internally the system doesn't particularly work. So it's interesting that there hasn't been more said, I think, about assessment in in that kind of concept of assessment. I'm quite interested in what you said and I didn't hear everything John said so I don't wish to repeat him but...

Actually I think assessment's threaded all the way through the report because when you you know, the the things that you're challenging there, David, you think about that and greater specificity in order to avoid some of the challenges that you're describing in some of the subject areas and we felt it was necessary to take it subject by subject because

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.

ac mae'n unrhyw beth sy'n ymwneud â'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i' Yn ymwneud â'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau.

Rydyn ni'n gweithio bod yno'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. ymwneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl sy'n cael ei wneud â phobl.

Yeah, we've tried to address that through V level. So whilst I I do get what you're saying, I think there is more in it around assessment than perhaps first meets the eye, really. Well absolutely.

I guess it's because people came into it with with their own like strongly felt beliefs and you know, there's been a long going d an ongoing conversation, hasn't there, for a number of years and the could the rethinking assessment group has been, you know, campaigning for changes to the assessment system. People like Professor Sarah Jane Blake more, who was saying, you know, like we didn't understand about

the nature of adolescent brain development. When we invented the GCSE, we didn't realize that there was so much neuroplasticity going on. And we saw people sort of say like, you know, exams are like the least worst yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n mynd.

than coursework. But it's in no way a level playing field. Like not all not all kids in the in year eleven in May and June are developmentally equal and you're not playing on a level pitch and we need and I think that there's just There's a there's there's very strong desire, especially at sixteen, you know, there's a there's quite a strong case for not having GCSEs if we've got if we've got GCS uh

high le high stakes tests at eighteen. Lots of countries don't have that stuff at sixteen and there's many people have been calling for that. The reduction by ten percent, I hear what you're saying, but that's like, you know, uh of a nine minutes off a ninety minute exam. Like it's not a huge amount or if they're if they're if they're having, you know

um twenty seven exams across May and June. They're now having twenty three or something like that. Like it's not it's not a massive reduction. And I think that it's more just that it's probably just speaks to what people w came into this sort of wanting something that was a bit more like GCSEs are still there, A levels are still there, there's a new test in year eight. It feels like the essentially the assessment regime, although I I I acknowledge that you've you that you've

it's been addressed in different ways throughout the report. It doesn't feel like there's been any significant shifts in the way that they're that they have on the curriculum front. I think I think we can see that if if your if your objective was abolish G C S Es, then you'll be disappointed in

Or even just to dial them down, right? Like like th I think that w the the uh of course, you know, abolish J G C S E's not the the only way that you could look at that. You could say, Well, let's dial it down to sixty percent of time and that should actually free up that t free up some time.

in key stage four for doing for doing other stuff, right? And and s and I I I mean Yeah, there is a speci there is a specific recommendation that the uh drafters of the new programmes of study will take into account the time available. for uh that that pro for each program study. That wasn't a requirement from National Curriculum twenty fourteen. So um obviously what what tends to happen is that when the rubber hits the road, you know

Uh a review makes recommendations and then subject experts and drafters get into a room and they say, Right, what should kids learn in history at Key Stage three? And that list very quickly becomes very long because you can make an argument for a for lots of stuff to go into into that and it's all very, very important.

So what we've done is we've introduced a guardrail to say that that whatever goes into that list must not exceed the school day. To your point, James, of of uh protecting time that the and and again the a specific there's an explicit statement that the national curriculum was never supposed to fill the whole school day and that there should be time. Now in terms of is it sixty percent, is it eighty percent, is it uh uh ninety percent of of of the time.

is a a judgment call because there is a a a trade off of a kind of a national entitlement, i.e. that the more time that you uh leave as kind of free choice, the greater variability that children will have across the country in terms of uh that time and Naturally, some schools will want to fit it with the the sorts of um activities that are valued by parents and children, i.e., accredited qualifications, and and you could therefore inadvertently kind of widen gaps.

uh for for for kids. But that notwithstanding, I think that there are explicit recommendations on lowering so I mean you say, you know, moving from from kind of like twenty seven hours to twenty three hours is no big deal. I think it is quite a big deal. Um I'm not sure what number like would be acceptable to you, but it brings us broadly in line with kind of more uh international uh uh expectations on sort of the examinations that that children take when they finish.

uh sort of sixteen uh a at at age sixteen. And if you removed it further, you really start to damage reliability. So we heard from children especially that they wanted two exams for each subjects because they felt that if there was just one exam and they felt that they didn't perform particularly well on it, had a bad morning or the the topics they hoped for didn't didn't come up, then they only got sort of like one bite of the cherry.

So they wanted two exams and uh the the kind of right the right number of minutes for that can be can be kind of debated. I think it's it's it's not thirty hours, which we're at currently, I think it's probably also not ten. And so we've asked for a sensible reduction that also protects the kind of um uh uh ro like that make sure you still have a a robust system um that's reliable.

Very quickly, uh sorry, Lisa, if I may, I think very quickly we need to be very clear, uh, given the time that we've got, that this is an exploration rather than a critique. And we've got a number of really significant areas I think within that we haven't yet covered. Um James I know has questions around curriculum and we've got questions around post sixteen. So come back in, Lisa, and then I think we need to to to to move on a bit, just to make sure that we get through and do justice.

I just wanted to say one more thing on the assessment question just because it's really important because What what you find when you start to get all of the assessment experts in the room and you set parameters around a knowledge-rich curriculum based on evidence.

and then you've tried to create greater specificity in order to reduce the curriculum, you can only take it so far. If you start to say, well, we'll only have one exam per GCSE, Everybody's trying to teach everything, not knowing what's yw'n ymwneud â'r GCSE, felly mae'r bwysig yn ymwybodol, mae'r bwysig yn ymwybodol, mae'r bwysig yn ymwybodol, mae'r bwysig yn ymwybodol, mae'r bwysig yn ymwybodol, mae'r bwysig yn ymwybodol, ac mae'r bwysig yn ymwybodol, mae'r bwysig yn ymwybodol.

Mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau. Mae'r bwysig wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'r hyn, mae'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd i'r hynny'n mynd

I mean there's another way to look at it with just as a final point on this and I know we want to move on, which is just about like the the number of the number that you need, right? So like like six phone colleges say you need sort of like five or maybe sometimes six G C S E passes to get onto their courses. But we routinely like kids are sitting nine or ten G C S E's. So there's a maybe th there is another potential y that you know there and it's not so much about what is acceptable to me.

to come back to your point, John. But it's just about like i bringing in a greater degree of flexibility to recognise mm, you know, the different different strokes for different folks, right? Like if if there are if there are some certain circumstances where it suits people to do less and then they have more time, there's more flexibility at key stage for

All right, I'm gonna have to allow John to to turn your body language into words. Go on. Yeah, okay, let's just follow the logical conclusion of uh of that. So the median number of G C S E's is eight currently, predictably, because we have a progress eight measure.

So so your argument would be, well, for some kids maybe five is the right number so they can pursue passion projects outside of that or areas of interest outside of formal qualifications. But Y given that we have two Englishes Maths is is a kind of double counted GCSE and then s at least two sciences, and that's kind of nationally designated core subjects and I think a a broad public expectation that children do maths and English up to 16, most other countries do it up to 18.

Y that would be their five. So so you would say just you could do those or would you say maybe some kids don't do maths in English? Well, so so there's there's there's th this is and this could end up taking up the another hour at least. So th th there's so many ways that you could break open that conversation. L for example the like one one one thing to say is that

Like doing maths in people talk a lot about so like children need to be functionally literate and numerate and so on. I think that there's an argument that doing GCSE ma like maths in English sets a really high bar that many kids don't pass, right? Like in there there's a figure in your report that says that like forty percent of kids don't don't get a level two maths and English um by the age of by the age of sixteen.

Um and maybe there's some that maybe there's a case for having like a like yes, of course, literacy and numeracy are really important, but if we had like a functional literacy and numeracy qualification for everybody that you want to get everybody to meet that a certain standard. We have one. Nobody takes it because it has almost no currency Well, right. So so th but that doesn't necessarily mean that that that's the only w that this is the only way that that could ever be.

Yeah, I think you'd have a cushion, you'd have a cushion of like you you'd like if you need five then maybe do like seven or something. Anyway, which is what we've got. But I think you know, we need to be very clear. This this is the cut. of a review on the scale. that there are so many issues which are deep, deep dividing like

in terms of the viewpoints that people bring to it. Um and that's that the issue we and we could spend, you know, virtually endless time debating some of the specifics around that and as a result not do do justice.

to the entirely creditable effort that's been made by your team to cope With the extent of that channel. And and I think you have made remarkable efforts to try and cope with the scale of the challenge. And I and I think we need to do justice to that by at least exploring some of these areas. So James, do you want to take us back into these areas around curriculum that you were particularly interested in? Yeah, so so there was a

Sorry, David, have you have you like edited the document just now? I haven't, no. Something changed a minute ago where some of the stuff has disappeared. Sorry, just give us one second. All right. I th I can remember the question anyway. So so um It was about the yeah, so so there were seven there were seven proposals around the curriculum and I now don't have them in front of me'cause they've just somehow magically disappeared. But they like the knowledge rich curriculum

features really strongly throughout them. Like the first one is about like the high standards for all thing that you said earlier, Lisa, and knowledge rich the curriculum should be knowledge rich and that was that was the case throughout uh

something like four or five of those seven things. Um and I know that that this is uh some some something that you've done lots of work on, John, and it it's not just you, right. Th there's there's been this huge that's that's probably been the most significant change to education. in this country in the last fifteen years and got you you know you this brings us back to to your earlier defence of of Mr Gove. There was

Yeah, th there's lots of emphasis on knowledge, right? And and I think that rightly so. Like you need to know your onions, you need to know about stuff. If you're gonna you know, we don't wanna necessarily rehearse the whole knowledge skills debate, but

You know, you can't you can't develop pe skilled, well rounded people who are critical and creative and so on in the absence of a knowledge base, right? You need like knowledge is the stuff you think with and all of that. But there's a there's a there's there's a sort of a sentence it's just a key idea really that I've been thinking about a lot recently and that lots of people are are increasingly recognizing, I'm noticing, which is simply that there is more to

uh human development than learning about subjects. There's more to there's more to human to human growth and development than learning about subjects. And yet if you look at the school timetable, right? You look at like do how we how do kids spend their time. The whole day is organized into subject learning. It's RP, maths, music, physics, go home the next day, you shuffle the deck and it's it's wall and and also

Yn ymwneud â hyn, mae'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw wave, if you like, is all of this focus on cogsi, on cognition, and cognition is really important, but so are other aspects of human development and human functioning, like relational learning. ymwneudol ac yn ymwneudol ac yn ymwneudol ac yn ymwneudol ac yn ymwneudol ac yn ymwneudol ac yn ymwneudol ac yn ymwneudol.

Like to what extent is is this broader agenda, you know, David mentioned earlier, like whole whole child development reflected in this very sort of knowledgey curriculum? Um Shall I shall I s shall I start? And and and I'm um I'm I'm cautious not to m to do a kind of uh action replay of our first conversation, um uh James in in in in the previous podcast. I think that like b both of the things that you've said are true, right? It it's true that there is more to life than

learning subjects. And it's also true that uh the the kind of substance of subject disciplines is crucial to to mastering them and um we happily have a universal education system where everybody is inducted into a broad range of subject disciplines to give them opportunities to realise their kind of passions and pathways for for the rest of their lives and

Again, not to rehearse old arguments, but subjects are organized into disciplines for a reason. They are distinct. They have distinct substance and disciplinary processes, uh and that's why we organize them into into subjects. But those broader aspects of chronic human development are also important in in some like we we formalize them in some ways in the national curriculum, both in terms of the

aims that that overarch the national uh curriculum. So outside of the content statements there's also broader aims and and they are very so within math, for example, people dr don't often read the kind of the the aims uh sort of like a paragraph the start but within maths there's there's statements like appreciating the beauty of of of of of mathematics.

Uh and we have PSHE and and citizenship and we've made some some pretty strong recommendations around uh uh climate education, financial literacy, media uh literacy uh within uh within citizenship. So um we we uh so th those are kind of specified and and then and then there's there's kind of the Well folks, we never quite got to hear the end of John's thought there due to some technical hiccups.

Um, so we caught up later on with um with first of all I dived into the post six scene stuff with Lisa. Um, and then we go into that in some depth and then we pull back and I end the conversation with John. We have lost David by this point. Um we uh wrap up with John and we bring it back to the big conversation and the big picture stuff that we were talking about earlier. So let's dive into the next part of the conversation with Lisa O'Lochlin.

So Lisa, let's come on to the post sixteen recommendations because these haven't received perhaps as much attention in the press as some of the other aspects of the review.

We'll get into the recommendations, but first of all, what like just can you just paint a bit of a picture of the current the current situation in terms of post sixteen options and what what are the strengths currently and what sort of what are the areas uh for development or perhaps the shortfalls that you are looking to address through the review.

Yeah, I think So I think it it's it's quite it's widely understood that the um prior to the review um the the government were proposing kind of three key pathways really at post sixteen at level three anyway, we'll talk about um ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud

But of course, up up until the kind of qualification reform had had begun, there was also and still is actually at the moment, although subject to defunding. ac mae'r cydweithio wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i' Um they were largely focused on

t-level implementation and a-levels, and the position of the government at the time was that any qualifications that were uh a a applied general or large qualifications that were actually um in the areas or the sectors where a T level existed, then they would be subject to defunding. yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r in the most recent uh update prior to the Skills White Paper was were art and sport were given as examples.

Um but of course that meant that all of those applied general qualifications were about to be removed. So that that was um a concern a little bit, I think, because In in at at this point we were at there's quite a lot of students on those those programmes, you know, there's quite a lot of students there ac mae llawer o ffeatrau o T-Levels sy'n cael ei wneud. Mae'r ffeatrau o T-Levels sy'n cael ei wneud. Mae llawer o ffeatrau o T-Levels.

sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n. at level three in um the applied general or kind of vocational if you will. And was that around assessment in particular with regard to T levels? Partly. Um I think I think there are a number of things really. So just just to be really clear, I've been a national champion for T levels. We're a trailblazer organisation and

I've absolutely seen, James, the utterly transformational impact of T levels. Really? Could you could you paint us a picture of that? What have you seen? Rydyn ni'n gweld yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw Um I was at the Manchester College for ten years and we were a huge T level provider. We again we were at we Rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio.

Mae'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw that actually bridge level three students in directly into work in an occupation and and at a sig and and at a a a good level. um with you know, attracting a decent salary and training that is kind of sponsored financially by an employer. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n.

is is is really transformational. So you see young kids come in, um, and they're sixteen, aren't they, you know, and and and as as bright and brilliant as they are There's a lot to work out in kind of getting ready for the world of work. Yeah. Um and that placement element and the elements that of the qualification that lead up to the placement and post placement.

It they absolutely transform young people into young professionals and for those kids who really want to go from school I think it was widely acknowledged that there was still some stuff to work out in terms of some HEI's acceptance of those qualifications if students did want to progress. Right. And, you know, let's be clear, the initial intended purpose of T Levels was to bring young people into work. They do that really well. Some students were choosing not to want to go that route.

And just to get a picture later. I I saw the change that it made to young people. So for me, yeah, T levels are great qualification, albeit relatively new and with some things to work out. So there there's obviously challenges in terms of Yn ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn sy'n ymwneud â'r hyn.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl ac roeddwn i'n gwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

neu gwirionedd gwirionedd gwirionedd gwirionedd gwirionedd gwirionedd gwirionedd gwirionedd gwirionedd Felly mae'n rhaid yw'r cyrraedd sydd wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i

yw'n cydweithasol, mae'n cydweithasol, mae'n cydweithasol, mae'n cydweithasol, mae'n cydweithasol, mae'n cydweithasol, mae'n cydweithasol, mae'n cydweithasol. ac yn ymwneud â phobl, ac yn ymwneud â phobl, ac yn ymwneud â phobl, ac yn ymwneud â phobl, ac yn ymwneud â phobl. Felly, dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r dyna'r

Right. And have you been in involved with any V like vocational type stuff before, like with G N VQs or applied A levels or anything? I've been teaching in education for 30 years, so I've seen pretty much all of the qualifications in that space. M VQs, G M VQs, um fourteen to sixteen diplomas. I've seen them all, you know. Um so it's one of those examples of the wheel turning, right? And things moving away from vocational and the the wheel coming back around.

I think it's more about, James, the way I see it genuinely and the way I think Curriculum and Assessment Review have tried to approach this. Rwy'n credu bod yna synegyr o'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna'r Dyna

And it's about the purpose of the qualifications. Air air levels are a very clear route mewn gwirionedd yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. T-levels yn fawr iawn yn fawr iawn i'r cymdeithasol. Mae'r cymdeithasol yn fawr iawn i'r cymdeithasol. Mae'r cymdeithasol yn fawr iawn i'r cymdeithasol yn fawr iawn i'r cymdeithasol.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol o'r cymdeithasol. from T levels. But equally there there are there are those students who need a more applied form of learning um than A levels and actually than T levels um provide at this moment in time. So a greater amount of um app applied learning, hopefully, depending on the design.

ond rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy

in order to be able to go on to further study like th which is probably the most likely outcome for those students. And then there are some subject areas and my kind of background is in art design and media and I would say in that particular subject area this

is particularly applicable where there is a need for a more applied qualification in order to support effective pedagogy because yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw you then move into exploration of different media and exploration of the development of a practice. Mae'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'r prydw i'n mynd.

but applied qualification. So there are a number of areas where I I I'd suggest that, you know, a large, for example, a large V level, which is what the car recommended, critical and assessment review recommended, is necessary.

I see. Thank you. And then just lastly, on like um on maths in English. So the the report aims to get more more students to achieve level two maths in English by age nineteen. Um and so there's some level two stuff here, um, like strengthened level two pathways, improved maths and English provision, and also a stepped level one qualification. W can you talk us through those?

So the Level 1 Step qualification is about supporting more young people to leave college with functional understanding of English and Math Um Mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud, mae'r data yn dweud.

much less likely and quite unlikely actually to achieve a grade four in the time that you will be at the college. So within two or three years of applied learning or with your your vocational learning. uh post sixteen. So you you're unlikely. So that's that's what the data tells us. There are some colleges where you are quite likely. My college is one of them, thankfully.

So you you can still progress from a grade two through to a grade four. But if you look at the national data set, Mae'n ymwneud y mae'n ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. And so they're going through research going through research and still not getting to that all important grade four.

Felly mae'n ymwneud hynny'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai'n byddai' yn amlwg i'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw.

rather than them continually aiming at that grade four. And I you know, I've heard I've had lots of challenge from people saying, Yes, but they already achieved, don't they? Um The equivalent of a level one if they get a grade one or grade two at G C S E. And in some senses that's true, except for um

than just aiming at a Grade 1 or 2 GCSE would do. And also, I think, that's really great for us to say, yeah, they've already achieved it, but where's the external recognition of that so that they can take that outside of you know, the the confines of the college. So there is something about that gra that that level one um stepping stone qualification that is really important. We still have the aspiration for everybody to get to that grade four.

ond mae hyn yn unrhyw beth sy'n mynd i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn i'w llawn. Mae'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n. yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r ac yn ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau sy'n ymwneud â'r pethau. And again that have been largely adopted by the the Skills White Paper.

Our vision there was that what you're seeing coming through colleges is largely two things. You're largely seeing students who want to go through to further study at level three. a'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw

Felly mae'n rhaid i fod yn ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu. Mae'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu'n ysgrifennu. Felly mae'r pethau'r pethau, mae'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau'r pethau.

yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r Rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'.

But if you ask me personally what I would like to see there Rwy'n meddwl, mae'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i

There's a there's a question about uh that in the design of those qualifications, I suppose, that needs answering. But actually in my view of the world, I don't save personally if I looked to and this is Job of Skills England in the department, not mine, but if you look to what are the occupations that you can enter at level two and or then go on to either an apprenticeship or into work.

yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r Mae'n ymwneud yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. Right. Yeah, thank you. Really interesting. So before we move on, is there anything is there anything in the post sixteen

um area of this report that we haven't covered yet. Or is there anything just that you'd like to say just just generally, just to as we move before we move on to sixteen? I I I I've taught for a very long time in vocational areas and so I've taught everything from Felly mae'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud. Rwy'n credu'r hynny'r hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny.

is the biggest opportunity we've had to get this space right. Okay. Um, in a way that is inclusive and allows for different types of learning and for learners to take different options. Rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n amser. And remove the barriers for some young people actually to progress. That would be my hope for it. Yeah.

Yeah, it's all in the implementation, as they say. It is. I mean the only other space that we've not covered is there is a recommendation in the report that is about um a stronger guidance really on the kind of yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw

We've got some excellent practice in post sixteen, but it is very individualised to what the college chooses. And you could say that's probably the perfect study and have greater awareness of. And in the post sixteen landscape you see those things like financial literacy, you see things like climate uh uh an understanding of climate change. digital literacy, media literacy as being really clear and important.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r panell yw'n ymwneud â'r CERRICULUM ASSESSMENT PANEL yw'n ymwneud â'r CERRICULUM ASSESSMENT PANEL yw'n ymwneud â'r CERRICULUM ASSESSMENT PANEL yw'n ymwneud â'r CERRICULUM those things pre sixteen that we've identified are the only things you'd want to see post sixteen. But actually there probably is a real opportunity here to Mae'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hynny.

Okay, and then there were two so so so so to to wrap this up, John, and thank you very much for your time uh and and also for the the the sterling work that you've done with this with this review. I know that we've we've you know asked some taxing questions today as is our job. Um but I think it it's a very positive um

series of steps and and that have been very widely but not entirely accepted by the by the DFE. And so Yeah, just just so just to wrap up, you know, like and to come back to what you were saying earlier about how this process has sort of helped you to fall back in love with the teaching profession and with this amazing endeavour that we're all

engaged in in different ways. And there are many amazing things about our schools. Like every time I go and work in a school, I just come away just thinking, My goodness, like it's it's just a very life affirming thing. alongside the this and alongside all of the the the sort of the the the gains that you pointed out earlier Phonics and literacy and uh international league tables and what have you. Alongside that, there are a number of other metrics which

point in a less optimistic direction around attendance. There was huge n huge issues around attendance. Mental health and wellbeing seems to just get worse. from one year to the next and uh and that's true of teachers and school leaders as well. The the um I can't remember what it's called, that sort of annual report. It's the is the the picture is not good for educators as well as for for young people.

widening inequality. Mm, you know, it there was a brief fluctuation in the last ten years or so where where the gap narrowed a tiny bit, but was still pretty wide. And it's going back to widening again. lots of issues around like behaviour and disengagement. And lots of the s the the teachers that I talk that I speak to just talk about just how like often disengaged the kids are. They just like not

really into it. They're not really just especially at secondary. I saw a graph recently which is about the the the proportion of kids that enjoy school just drops off a cliff in year seven. There's something in secondary in particular that we seem to be Really turning kids off.

Teacher recruitment and retention and all of these issues are very interconnected. I I've written about this recently in a few posts called about this what I refer to as the educational poly crisis, right? This sort of entangled like nexus of of intertwined and and sort of dynamic issues. And and enjoyment, you know, like the the you mentioned I don't I don't I I don't know if I misheard you earlier. You seem to say that enjoyment

w had gone up or something. But th I don't know the data that I've seen suggested that the that the the proportion of kids I think it was part of Tim's, was it? The proportion of kids who who don't enjoy school. Or rather the proportion of kids who say I do enjoy school has reduced by half in the last like five years or

And so alongside all of the good stuff, there are there are these this very deep rooted set of of problems which are sort of gradually worsening. And, you know, that that language of polychrisis is, you know, there's a few ways to think of a crisis, aren't there? There's there's like A crisis is like something that suddenly happens, like a humanitarian crisis, like an earthquake. But then there's also just like a bad situation that just gradually reaches crisis point, right?

And I think that y at some point you gotta s you gotta call that and and probably people have got different levels of crisis points. But those things are getting worse. Many of those m those issues are getting worse. And And that was the context in which you undertook this review.

And I think that, you know, David and I would agree with many other people that there are lots of really good ideas in here. We were we were doing cartwheels at Orissey Cambridge about the the very full throated support of Orrissey. the reduction of exam time, although we might we might argue about the the extent of it, it's a step in the right direction. I think everybody would agree with that. Scrapping the e bac was overdue and very welcome.

The introduction of citizenship or the the reintroduction of that only at primary, um but you know, great. I think it would be good to see that back in secondary as well. There was some odd ones. The the the the the triple science for all thing as a former science teacher, I don't know m I don't know Maybe we'll come back to that. But so yeah, so so the the curriculum and assessment review is these things don't come around very often. You know, we had a change with government.

It's like a once in a decade or perhaps longer than that, once in a generation opportunity to sort of to do like a course correction. And then the natural question is, does it go far enough? Like this sort of evolution, not revolution approach and this sort of compromised approach where you're sort of, you know, like dealing with lots of lots of people pulling in different directions. Is it is it enough to meet the the seriousness of this sort of set of of very serious problems that we face?

So th the first thing to say is they are serious problems and they're real problems and you're right to draw attention to them and be concerned about them as I think anybody that cares about children and young people is. The second thing to say though is that most, if not all of the measures that you've kind of cited are not unique to England.

And that doesn't mean that our particular flavour of education and curriculum assessment arrangements has nothing to do with it, but it also suggests that other countries who are pursuing really quite different approaches to curriculum assessment, exams. school uh are seeing similar issues with recruitment and retention crises, with parental complaints, uh, with absence rates from pupils, um, and with those measures like

happiness and enjoying school uh going down. Um even in some nations where kind of some of the more radical solutions that have been proposed have have been have been trial. And I think that there's a temptation when there are real issues like that and ones that are quite distressing when we think about children not going to school one in five days and and feeling

very sad and and and and and perhaps even worse with kind of clinical mental health diagnoses. There's there's a temptation to to like point to the thing that you already didn't like. and and say that like that's the reason and therefore if we if we stop doing that then all of those measures will reverse and kids would be happy and grades would go up.

And so if you don't like social media and mobile phones, then you would say if only we got this technology out of kids' hands, then everything will be better again. If you really do like technology then then you say if only we digitalised schools and had to full kind of like personalisation through our AI, then that would solve the engagement.

crisis. If you really like kind of very purist traditional education, you say, you know, if if only we pursued this more full throatedly and nationally, then kids would be much happier that it be able to practice kind of gratitude and and those kind of uh old fashioned values which which kind of the stoicism which it which actually is is is helpful.

And and if that's not your favourite then you'd say if only we we kind of move to a fully progressive system and and a bonish kind of teacher authority, then kids would uh flock back. And the reality is that we d like with with with almost all of these things we don't know. Uh like we don't know what is causing or contributing to these different measures that are really worrying.

Jonathan Haidt wrote a whole book, The Anxious Generation, uh blaming social media and mobile phones for this and presented big data sets which he said showed sort of causal links between this and then you get a whole group of uh esteemed uh academics in this field saying this is all nonsense, he's got it all wrong, it's nothing to do with a mobile phone.

Uh so we don't know. And I I think that therefore that that means that one of the things that we needed to do is was kind of practice humility as much as possible around what what could be contributing and and that that doesn't mean

not our problem, can't possibly be the national curriculum or or assessment. They may well in some senses uh contribute to some of those issues. So we heard for example and we wanted to follow the data on this, like what what are the specific issues and where are the specific barriers that we could potentially help here. The exam burden was Clearly causing sixteen. We heard that loud and clear and it's borne out in the data.

And then when we look internationally as a comparison, they are taking way more exams. So it's not like, well, every kid does that uh across across the world. W they're taking more exams and it's causing them to be more anxious and stressed. And so we made a specific recommendation on reducing that number uh of hours uh with with exams. And we try to take a kind of responsible, measured uh approach to each of those issues.

Well you're right, what we didn't do, which was called for by by some, was uh a a a a very, very radical, complete reimagination of the education system and overhaul of subjects and assessments and examinations. Uh w w we we said from the start that we that we were not going to do that within the terms of reference and and as you say, that was borne out within the final report which takes in evolution not revolutionary

approach. And I I I stand by that because It it may well be kind of fun for adults to to sort of think what if we did something entirely different? Uh we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll for a couple of years try fully project based learning or um micro credentialism or some of these things that I think would be fun to do and may well may well be helpful. The the issue is that kids are moving through the system year on year and and they're the ones that feel the the consequences of those decisions.

And and given that we don't know and can't necessarily have high levels of confidence that those things will help or or will benefit, um, and given the amount of impact they will have on those children and young people for the rest of their lives. I think the test is quite high for me. The the test is quite high to introduce the m much more radical changes. And I don't think I share your confidence that that test has been met in many of the more radical suggestions with that.

Yeah. And so so then the question becomes about how you start to loosen the screws a bit so that you can so that you can trial things like micro credentialism, so that you can trial things like you know, reducing reducing the exam burden even more in carefully managed ways so that you can run trials and you can collect data on it, right? And bearing in mind that we're doing this

gradually. And I know what you mean about, you know, people people have got a tendency to sort of say, like is like my pet thing, that's the reason that the world is going to hell and this new data is just confirming, you know, like we're all we're all v very much um victims of confirmation bias to some degree. It c sort of comes with comes with being a human. But when you sort of say like we don't know what's causing

th all of these problems. I think that we do know a certain amount about about what makes humans happy and vibrant and have well-being. And self determination theory goes a long way to explaining that, right? You know, with the like the three components of like competence, absolutely. Teach kids stuff, help them to get good at stuff, autonomy.

have, you know, some deg like meaningful degrees of freedom so that kids can actually make meaningful choices about what they do and when and how. And that can sometimes include saying no to things and you know, we we can think about how that might play out in a school system, but you know, the the the evidence is there. And relatedness, like having more opportunities for for human connection, for connection with the you know, the wider community and so on.

I've worked in an entirely self-directed learning environment Kate McAllister, who I still work with very closely. she runs this this place in the Dominican Republic, which is like barefoot unschool, right? So there's no curriculum They they they self regulate. The kids self regulate. They go for lunch when they want lunch. If they want to go and climb a tree, they climb a tree and they come back to doing whatever they're doing.

You know, again, like it it's one thing when you've got thirty kids in a tropical paradise and it's another thing where you've got two thousand kids in a big building in an inner city somewhere. Um of course it's not necessarily translatable, but she talks about like, you know, there are lots of kids who go to that environment who were

thoroughly miserable, right? And that's why their parents have taken them there,'cause they're like at their wits end. Or kids who've been like an elective mute for like a year because they were so traumatized by whatever was happening at school. whether it's bullying, whether it's the sense of sort of a lack of agency. And they just like the parents are coming to her within days and they're like, This is a different kid. Like, what have you done? And she's like

It's it's it's not hard. She's like it's not hard to to to put kids into create an environment where kids um do thrive and where their well being is

through the roof and where they can make connections and learn effectively and get into stuff. You know, that's the other thing that that teachers often say to me is like, that the kids just sort of present in quite a sort of an apathetic way that they sort of are a bit switched off, like it's not cool to try hard, so they just sort of just take a bit of a back seat and they just

uh school ends up being done to them and and teachers are very good at doing education to to young people with the best you know, will in the world with the best of intentions, which is to use this this precious time that we have efficiently. Um, but it has all these sort of adverse side effects. And so for me, I think it boils down to finding ways to carve out time in the school day when you can do this this stuff.

alongside the knowledge rich curriculum. And it's not an either or thing. It's not about saying we need to go completely like math is going to be taught through open ended discovery learning now. And so is geography and R and P. you can still have that stuff being taught in a traditional sort of explicit instruction way.

And alongside that, you can have time in the school day where kids can make connections and run projects and follow their interests and follow their curiosity and all of that stuff, you know, I think that it so it's still it's still yeah, it still feels like the the post car education system is in fundamentally like the the the the

D you know, notwithstanding the many significant, you know, positive things that I think you guys have put in place, it feels like it's very much that same system that it was before, albeit with, you know, some fine tuning that's pointing in a positive direction.

Yeah, uh one of the things that the card didn't do was talk about how. Um so we w we talked about what, the the the content within contained within the national curriculum, the the specific aims uh that that hope to articulate nationally for for children wherever they uh go to school or or college and and assessment that will kind of um both give them a a credential at the end of that but then also sort of help them to demonstrate the knowledge and skills that they've developed.

what what we were very careful never to do was to say, and you should you should teach this in this particular way, or you should take this particular approach to to structuring this. That is and should be within the gift of head teachers and and Often through the course of the last sort of fifteen months or so and engaging with with with school leaders I will be lobbied by a teacher or a school leader around.

Well well why yeah, you know, this should be in the curriculum assessment review. Why why can't we just do do do this? We want to do this. Whatever whatever it is, you know, you're doing a a project based Friday afternoon or Tuesday morning, whatever it is. And I...

Many, if not most of those things were were already within the gift of of of of head teachers. There's there's absolutely nothing stopping a head teacher deciding to do a in fact there's a qualification. There's the there's the E P Q at post sixteen, but there's also an HP Q and F P Q. um for key stage four and and key stage three.

Um uh and and so like these things are already within the gifts of of head teachers. Uh ac mae'n bwysig iawn, ac mae'n bwysig iawn, ac mae'n bwysig iawn, mae'n bwysig iawn, mae'n bwysig iawn, mae'n bwysig iawn, mae'n bwysig iawn, mae'n bwysig iawn, mae'n bwysig iawn, mae'n bwysig iawn, mae'n bwysig iawn, um school leaders and college leaders have to act in the best interests of children. And yes, n the the review should

um as much as as far as possible reduce disincentives to act in the best interest of kids. The EBAC is a good example of that. It arguably was making uh incentivise principals to make decisions that were in the interest of the school and not in the interest of the kids.

Um so we should seek out and remove those kind of disincentives and incentives. But I think there's also like a storytelling bit around this and narrating the the kind of um power and flexibility that that that principals are all already have uh for for some of those areas. Yeah. Well, thank you for for telling your story, the inside track on uh on the life of a curriculum uh and assessment reviewer.

Um thank you for that. Really interesting and and congratulations on the report. I know that it that it you know took up a lot of your life. for the last couple of years and I think that you wrote somewhere that it was the honor of your life to be involved in this thing and I and I totally appreciate the the the uh the the effort and the the long days and nights that have gone into it and and

you know, there are many things to be really excited about. Um and so I'm very much looking forward to the rubber hitting the road and to seeing to seeing the the fruits of all of these ideas uh coming to fruition. So Thank you very much for for all your work on this and to Lisa in her absence and uh and for for sharing your thoughts and your time with us today. Thanks, James.