From Shop Floor to C-Suite: Rick Brindle’s Journey Shaping Retail and CPG

Welcome to Retailistic, the official podcast of Coresight Research for August 26th, 2025. This week, our CEO, Deborah Wineswig, welcomes Rick Brendel, a true legend of retail with decades of leadership at the companies that shaped our culture. But first, Isla is here from the London office to highlight what you can expect from Coresight Research this week. A packed week of insights is here, with new reports designed to keep you ahead of the curve.

First, our U.S. CPG Sales Tracker, your monthly pulse check on sales trends across food and beverages, health and beauty, and general merchandise and home care. Next, we're diving into the future of retail with not one, but two retail tech landscape reports, spotlighting the must-know innovators in marketing technology and supply chain tech.

And finally, we'll unpack a major policy story, how potential SNAP changes and funding cuts could ripple through retailers nationwide. Stay tuned, these reports are packed with insights you won't want to miss. Now, here's Debra to introduce Rick. Today, we have the privilege of sitting down with a true industry bridge builder, someone who has walked the aisles of retail.

shaped the strategy of the world's most iconic CPG brands, and consistently kept his gaze focused on the future. Rick Brindle's career began on the shop floor at Safeway, where he learned firsthand the rhythms of retail and the pulse of the consumer.

Those early days gave him an operational grounding that would serve him well when he stepped across the aisle into the CPG world with Procter & Gamble immersing himself in data, process, and brand discipline at the very highest level. From there, he joined HBISCO.

where heritage brands met the challenge of innovation. It was here that Rick really began blending tradition with technology, recognizing that R&D was not just about recipes and packaging, but about anticipating the consumer's next move. When Nabisco became part of Mondelez, Rick's influence expanded onto the global stage, where he led with a conviction that technology and innovation could unlock new frontiers in product development, retail partnerships, and sustainability.

Across every chapter, Rick has been a technologist at heart, and that's what I love about him. He's really seen the digital transformation, not as a buzzword, but as a mandate, and his career is a master class in moving from the shop floor to the C-suite. from the local shelf to the global marketplace, and from the present moment to what's possible next. Today we will explore the lessons he has learned.

the innovations he has championed, and the future he sees for both retail and CPG in a world driven by data, technology, and imagination. Rick, welcome to the show. Thanks, Debra. Thank you for that very, very kind introduction. I worked on it and I worked on it and I'm like, I still probably could have done a better job because it truly, in terms of your background, is unlike anything we've seen across retail. So let's start. I always like to go back to the beginning. If we go back to Safeway.

You are on the front lines of retail. First, why did you go to Safeway originally? And what did you learn about shoppers? products, and just the pace of business in the grocery world. Yeah. What got me to Safeway was in my family, I'm the oldest of six. And in my family, I think you either became a cop or you went to work for Safeway.

So when I was 17, I joined Safeway. And I literally started, they don't even have this job anymore, but there used to be a job where the shopper would pull in after they paid for their groceries and someone would put their bags in the back of their car. was my job. And so I just from there went through a number of pretty much worked every department except meat in the store. Loved every minute.

Probably cashier and stocking were my favorites. But yeah, no, and I actually got a job, got an assignment in Germany while I was with Safeway. So quit college for a little bit. and went to Germany and helped kind of teach the Germans how to market and merchandise a grocery store. We had a German division. So that was fun. But the reason, you know, that's basically what put me through college, working for Safeway.

That's so interesting. I actually worked at a division of Kroger and through high school. And I think from that, I really understood how important customer service was. And even if you made a mistake, as long as you double back very quickly to fix it, that you could win the consumer. And it really probably set me up for...

a very different focus on my career, like kind of customer first. So at least that's what, from my perspective, that's kind of what the grocery industry did for me. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's every day was... opening night. I mean, there was nothing ritualistic about the job. I enjoyed meeting people, talking to people in the aisle, helping them out, and, you know, really helped me, you know, with my interpersonal skills, confidence, that sort of thing.

So, yeah, no, I loved it. And, you know, and I hold high. the retail culture because they're just regular folks. Everybody wants to help each other. I still feel that way to this day about our industry. Probably one of the best gifts I was ever given was from a store manager. I was thinking about quitting college. I was making $7.25 an hour, $14.50 on Sunday, and $21.75 on holidays. That's big bucks in the late 70s.

So my manager said he called me in the office one day and he said, Rick, I understand you want to quit college and join us full time. I said, yes, sir, I do. He said, why don't you sit down for a minute? And he told me how important an education was, how vulnerable he was for not having an education. And then went on to say, would you do me a favor? Would you stay if you stayed in college?

I will give you every hour I can possibly give you from Friday to Sunday when you come home. He said, would you do that for me? And I said, sure, absolutely. And I mean, that saved my life right there.

That changed everything. And so, you know, that's one of those give backs that when you turn a certain age and you get to a certain level, you want to give somebody a call and thank them. And I did that. So, you know, that's the kind of people that I believe work in in our industry. It's interesting you bring that up.

I, out of my summer internship at Bear Stearns, I had an offer to return full-time, and I loved it. I got to spend time in capital markets, but ultimately spent the last six weeks in equity research, wrote a report, got my name on it, and worked directly with Dana Telsey.

And I said to her, I'm like, I'm going to accept it. And she's like, do not do that. She's like, you need to invest the time in yourself, meet with all the banks and see what it is that you really want to do. And so I ended up accepting a different offer full time.

I spent a few years at Morgan Stanley and then went back to Bear Stearns with Dana. But going back to somebody who cares that much about you, that they put you first versus themselves. That's I mean, I think we've both been very lucky. Yeah. No. And, you know, the other. part of that on the grocery side is just about every grocer and even convenience stores and other channels, they espouse giving their employees education.

helping them with their education. Most, if not all of them, have programs where they'll pay half of what you pay and that sort of thing. And WAFC is a phenomenal Western Association of Food Chains, phenomenal organization that their whole purpose of the association. is education for people in our industry. And, I mean, that's a real hand up. And we just lost a dear friend, Carol Christensen. God bless her. So, you know, it's who we are.

And that's what makes this industry so powerful for me. Well, it goes back to, and kind of leading to my next question, right, as you move from the day-to-day face-to-face with the consumer and then moving into CPG. How did the grounding from Safeway change your perspective? And what did you see were some of the biggest differences between retail and CPG in the early days? Well, I mean, not only in the early days, throughout life.

career I pulled from my days in retail because I got a glimpse of the other side. I saw how our products actually performed when they went into a store, how they looked on a shelf, how consumers thought about things. I learned a great deal, but I also learned that...

You know, and often is the case when someone would join on the CPG side and didn't have retail experience. You know, there was a high level of intimidation walking into a grocery store or walking into a buyer's office. And I'd never felt that intimidation because. I knew that all they wanted to do was sell more stuff. All they wanted to do was solve problems. And so if you can see that other side and come in, I think you're incredibly valuable.

to that CPG company. And I would offer, I don't know for sure, that the same would be true if you started in CPG and went to retail. You know, there's a real completion of the total process that you don't get if you're...

If you're starting on one side or the other and stay in there. It's interesting. My brother had an opportunity to join P&G after college. Of course, I convinced him to come to Wall Street. But it was amazing how kind of process driven they were.

And I think, right, you need process in order to understand where your organization is and i think png has had a very interesting path on how they i've known a lot of companies they've acquired and just the i'd say every story is better than the last on how well they do with integration what did you find was unique about the DNA of PNG. I loved PNG. I loved every minute of PNG. I found they did help you to think in a more structured way. They provided so much data.

about the shopper, about the consumer, about the category, about your competition, and procedurally how to approach decisions. Very helpful. And I actually took it for granted. You know, when you're in the midst of that and you're in your and you're enjoying that wealth of data. I just said we had so many white coats, you know, in P&G and they and they would they encouraged you.

to work on one thing until it was completed and do that one thing right. When I left P&G, it wasn't anything like that. It was, you know, you're... Your desk has mounds of paper. If you had mounds of paper on your desk or even in your car, if you were a sales rep, you got some coaching. you know, from your boss. So there was nothing cluttered about P&G. It was all very structured.

Not to a fault, but structured to a point where the likelihood is if you followed the process, you would probably get really close to the right idea, the right solution. There are very few companies that we see that are like that. And I'm talking from an analyst perspective, looking from the inside out. A lot of the decisions are kind of more art than science. And one of the things, as you're talking about P&G, right, if a lot of it's process driven.

Some of the things I start to think about from an AI perspective is how much of that can be automated. And then when you layer humans on top of it, you can just make...

better and much more informed decisions. So I don't personally believe that we'll require less humans. I think we'll just have humans doing more value-added work. And one of the things that very early in kind of my AI... journey was making sure all processes were documented because if you have that, then you know where you can add in automation and where you can add in some of that art to the science.

As you think about moving from a very structured environment to, say, a less structured one, how did that change where you spent your time? How you made decisions? Well, the first thing I learned I really tried hard not to do when I joined Nabisco out of P&G was I really tried never to say the words. Well, back at P&G, this is how we did it. I never did that. I couldn't do it. I hated it when I heard it. I was like, guys, don't do that. But in my head, I would see the discipline opportunity.

But you're joining another company with a different culture and a different set of brands. Nabisco were food products and snack products, different approach than having the... 99.9% cleaning of ivory soap or perfumes and other such stuff that they had. So it was very different, but I did really try to help our company.

in my world at least, be somewhat structured and more strategic in the decision-making that they were making, decisions that they were making. And we were, on the Nabisco side, we were incredibly heavy on great relationships. And I would take that over great data almost every time because it's the power of trust, you know. And so we really played over our weight at Nabisco. We weren't a very large company. We were a big company, but we weren't.

Procter & Gamble big. But we got a lot of great stuff accomplished, mainly because they knew we were their partner. And we were going to, if you asked us to try to do something, we were going to try to do it. Maybe create a new product or something, you know, we would listen to you. And that's what I learned. So you got to kind of...

juxtapose the process and structure with great relationships. And in my mind, that's where synergy really kicks in high gear. One of my favorite books is The Speed of Trust. I mean, it's absolutely true. You know, it just cuts through all the mustard. when you have a good, trusted relationship. I'm not saying that we didn't have that at Procter & Gamble at all. We did. We did what we told them we were going to do, and we delivered and all of that.

But there was also a relationship component at Nabisco that took it to the next level. How do you think, if we look at how R&D has changed and with different technologies available, and there's a lot that the grocery... are now doing on the private label side and a lot of the brands are doing private label. I mean, it's all kind of going through a very interesting dynamic environment right now. How do you see where...

the brands put R&D and technology, like how does that impact and influence not only their impact, but also their future? I think it's dependent upon the categories and brands that you're working with. I think you've got some brands and categories that are more complex. than others let's face it i sold cookies um yeah a good thing to sell

A great thing to sell. But you don't have to be a rocket scientist for that. So I think the R&D that we did at Nabisco was primarily on the shopper and the consumer. and the occasion, the shopper mission. those things as well as what pairs well with our products and how can we partner with those products. On the Procter & Gamble side, I do think the R&D was very much in addition to consumer.

Very consumer-laden, but also was very much about the product, very much about the configuration of the product. And then I always, you know, I remember spending some time with a very large grocer and... They talked about how much time they spent on packaging, which I thought was interesting.

Where did packaging kind of come into play as it relates to the product once, you know, obviously the product was developed? It's interesting. That was a bit of a pet peeve of mine because in just about every company that I worked with, the packaging... was often one of the first things a new brand manager would delve into, would want to change, would want to improve. And it would be gorgeous on a big placard. But you didn't, you know, if you put it on the shelf, that's...

That's what I always would try to espouse. Take a moment, put a few boxes, put a few cases in your trunk and go put it on a shelf. and see what the consumer or what the shopper sees. It often would be the case that we would de-emphasize a point on the product that was a very critical point to the shopper, and they wouldn't see.

Because it was de-emphasized, it made it harder for them to buy the blend or the flavor that they were looking for. And I would just say, just take a few minutes and think about it from an operational standpoint. retailers are. They're operators. They understand what, and probably one of the biggest pet peeves that retailers had back then, now I'm talking about a long time ago, Debra, was the circular products. Why are you putting a circular product on a square shelf?

You know, how can we pack this shelf out a little better? You know, and I just felt like that was a pretty common sense question. And, you know, or why do you create packaging? that I can't get a case and a half on the shelf. That's all I need. So that means that I got a half a case and I can throw a case on. But because you don't...

Think about that. I've got to put product on the very top shelf until it's that kind of stuff that used to just drive the retailers crazy. I can tell you stories. We did a big project in potato chips. Right. We explored all different kinds of bags. Right. Like, how do you seal them so that they have longer, you know, like that, you know, the consumer's home and right. What is maybe the bottom of the bag look like? So they're less, you know, let's say.

they they arrived home in better shape and yeah it it's funny you say that because ultimately right like what everybody well we were super excited right we all kind of worked together and came up with and then i was like well let's go drop it you know a few of the mom pops I know is a favor like let's just and and you saw on the shelf and I'm like yeah that's not gonna work

because it doesn't like even right it was funny right they even had like a test store at hq yeah i was right there it looked great and then you like go to the store and you're like yeah it's not gonna work in like the real world and even when someone was like the lighting like going back to what you said right like the the product features right didn't didn't

really kind of stand out so it's it is an interesting kind of place to play yeah and i mean so i thought you were going to go in another direction because how many of those bags uh could even be opened I mean, my wife is tiny. And so I'll come and I'll see a bag of potato chips. And it looks like a raccoon opened it. You know, it's just shredded.

I know how tiny D is. I mean, like, there are times that I'm like, you know, I just can't, like, I just go out and get the scissors, right? Because I'm like... No matter what, this is not going to work, but I know exactly what you're talking about. It is interesting. And one more quick thing. When I was young in the store, I would have so many older folks come up to me, so I can't even read.

This the back of this label, it's too small. You know, I can't read it. And I would go, come on, you can read it, you know, and now I'm that guy. That's interesting. Right. If you can't even understand. I mean, I'll tell you these days and I mean. Yes, I am below average height for a female, but, you know, over five feet. And I will tell you the amount of times I now cannot reach product.

And it's not like they have it down below. It's only kind of out of out of my arm's reach. And, you know, I've started to take photos and send it to people because I'm like, I just can't help myself. Because it goes back to making it easy for the customer, but also thinking about what it looks like on the shelf. And then how do you think, as we move forward, how...

How important, right, we've seen different retailers, different challenges, but, right, on-shelf availability has been a bigger issue than it has in the past. When you think about that, how does DSD come into play and why are there out of stocks? Because theoretically, you know what you sell.

You know, if you have it in the back, not, you should be able to get back in stock quickly. Why didn't, this has been like one of those questions I have to say. It's like, I feel like when I understood the impact of marketing on Charmin. This is that other question that is like the Holy Grail to get answered. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of stores now have automated.

ordering. And so it just happens. But you can always turn that off. So if you've got a, let's say you put an end cap up of Charmin and you've got half the end cap is in the back room, you're going to turn off that skew. until you get right on backroom inventory, you know. And so that's a lot of times that'll happen. You know, a lot of shipment issues with the port strike that we had a year or so ago, you know, different things like that play into it.

But, yeah, that's how it works. But I will tell you that, I mean, I think you were with me when we had a NACDS. uh event where we did a market immersion i think it was in minneapolis yes and we had a group of um of millennials uh that we did a panel discussion i think i led the panel discussion and one fellow said and he and he was i think

from a very large major retailer and his CEO was in the audience. He said, you know, he said that I don't ever worry about out of stocks. My parents go to the store. They have an out of stock. They keep it on their list. They come back the next week and they get it the next week.

He goes, I've got this thing in my pocket. Oh, that's my grandson. I've got this thing in my pocket that all I have to do is pull it out and order it, and it'll be at my house by the time I get home. And that was a chilling remark. for senior executive retailers in the room. Because it was true. It was so true. Everybody just kind of went, ooh, man, this gets right. You know, so yeah, auto stocks are not a good thing.

They're a terrible thing, as a matter of fact. It gives your competition an opportunity to get into that shopper's house. It's not good. I think for a while, like in 24, we saw consumers visiting. more right on a trip out they would visit more retailers a lot of it was kind of price shopping and deal shopping and all that especially in grocery this year we've seen that kind of retrace a bit and so I do think that consumers are very

you know, kind of time focused. And so, right. If you're consistently out of stock on a products that they need, I do think that they will switch behaviors and. Maybe they're ordering some of those products online, but I think in often cases, they're switching retail. Yeah, we had a product in our home that very recently...

that it was a staple in our household, and we couldn't find it on any shelf anywhere. And we figured, well, they must have discontinued it. We did find a private label at a retailer. that was very close to that product. And that one product sent us from one retailer to another retailer for our entire basket.

And so that shows you the impact of out-of-stocks in the households of shoppers. It's really interesting you say that. So I attended a very small dinner with a marketing professor from University of Chicago. And he said 4% of product determines which retailer you go to. And he said it can be 1% of that is it's in stock or not in stock. And it also goes back to some of the local flavor. But if you think about.

It's such a small percentage that determines kind of your consumer continuing to show up, how kind of fickle the consumer really is. But I don't know if we always, and that goes back to why I think your background at Safeway. played such a significant role in your career because you always put the customer first. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. You put the customer first, you put your associates first, too, particularly in retail, because they make or break a retailer for sure.

Yeah, no, it's very much the case. No, I mean, it makes a ton of sense. So as we think about some of the changes from a tech perspective... And there's a lot happening in CPG and Grocery and their relationships with each other. How do you think about retail media? We had a...

fascinating conversation with somebody you definitely know. And I asked him and he said, let me put it to you straight, which I appreciate because that's how I like it. And he said, it's a 12 to retail and it's a two to us. And so he said, we understand it.

But he said, if we focus on it too much, we're going to start to lose kind of like our thread. How do you think that changes the relationship? And do you think it changes the industry longer term? I don't quite know how that's funded. buy CPGs. I don't know if there is a fund for that. I think the prevalent point of view is that those monies come out of marketing dollars that would otherwise go direct to consumer.

When I was in the game, there was a pretty hard wall between marketing dollars and merchandising dollars. And you never crossed that wall. And I believe that's... either being crossed now or, you know, I guess if in fact they're using media dollars to fund that, then I think your media should compete with the media that's available elsewhere.

That might be social media. It might be network media. It might be whatever media. You have to compete with that. I'm not sure that that's the case right now. So I think where you get to kind of an area where you get into like social media. and merchandising around social media. I think capabilities determine that.

In some cases, you have the capabilities to drive volume via your social. In other cases, a retailer might not have those capabilities. So a manufacturer has to figure out how to keep that equal. OK, in terms of here's what we can do with one that's got the capabilities and here's what we can do for the ones that don't have that capability.

More and more, they're getting the capability. You know, more and more, they're getting apps. They're getting, you know, they're leveraging social pretty regularly. Was it TikTok shop, I guess? Yeah. You know, and all the social shopping. I'm fascinated by that. But, you know, it's got to compare with other medias or your ROI is going to just tank.

Well, the question goes back to how do you measure it, right? There's a lot of questions, I think, that prevail right now. And I'll tell you, we haven't said this much, but we had a few CPG companies come to us. to think about how do you go direct to consumer, right? Because if there's now this tax or this toll to be on the digital shelf or the physical shelf, and, you know, and you also are...

And now you have to pay, right, there's also a significant toll for the data to understand the consumer. And if you can start to kind of go direct and there's many, you know, there are many things that are evolving that would allow that to happen. Social shopping is one of them. But what we've started to see bring it up, Rick, and not many people have, is I think how some of the brands are leaning into social media. And I think it's fascinating. I don't know.

I don't spend, I do for work purposes. But what I find so interesting is when a product starts to have its own social media page and how the consumer, right, like how much they care and how much they put into that. That starts to show you, I think, how the consumer's relationship to brands has changed. And maybe in some cases, the retailers are not paying enough attention to that. Yeah, maybe. I mean, there's a lot in there.

You know, it could also mean that before social, before Internet, consumers were laser focused on brands that they loved, but they didn't have a media to discuss that. They didn't have a way to talk to that brand besides a letter. or a telephone call to an avenue to offer ideas or to be a part of that brand's development. Now they have that opportunity. And I think that's what's happening now is that consumers are active.

in that way. You know, if you're a brand right now, if you're a startup brand, you want to be viral. You know, you want to go viral. You want to get that hit. And it's, you know, it's... It's a crapshoot. You can you maybe will get it. You maybe won't. But, you know, everybody's trying. That's for sure. You know, there's a lot going on. My goodness, if you can have a jeans hit. You know, my jeans are blue.

I just want you to know that, Lou. But, you know, I mean, I think that shoppers and consumers have always wanted to have a relationship with the brands that they have, you know. I sold Crisco. There were people that I couldn't talk about Crisco without hearing about somebody's pie crust or, you know, the best fried chicken they've ever had and all of that. I have to interrupt. literally when you said it, I started salivating. You might want to get a little something to eat.

I'm like, yeah, you think about all the great, I'm like, oh, yeah, we use it when, like, we put it in the bottom, like, our pans when we're baking or, like, you said, I mean, like, it's like, it is interesting how sometimes it's hearing a certain word, right? Yeah, it's like loyalty, but it's beyond. I mean, it's here, there. I mean, people were wearing Coca-Cola T-shirts in the 60s, you know. So, you know, it's just.

new way to express that, I think. And it's also an interactive way. So, I mean... brands love that stuff. They really want to get into that. I think the capabilities are that way now. Obviously, like many of us, I'm a little concerned about too much of that. Because it's kind of nice to actually go out with humans and talk to them face to face and shake hands and that kind of stuff. But, you know, a lot of people are spending a lot of time on digital now. It's interesting. We were with about...

two dozen earlier stage or emerging brands. And we were talking to them just about kind of our point of view from spending so much time in China with live streaming. And I'd say... Maybe six out of the 20, there was 25. Six of them had like a major hit on TikTok, but they were all pretty open. They're like, right, we tried to recreate it and we were unable to, right? Because it's hard to kind of really imprint. what what made it work and so it's it's when it's difficult to repeat and

When you as the brand aren't sure, right, you may run out of stock as well. I mean, those are some of the things that can be pretty interesting. How much do you think the consumer, going back to your Safeway days, how much do you think... They're interested in the gamification of shopping. I think once they get in the store, their only interest is to fill their basket and get out. I recall when we were...

Going down the path of online grocery, there was a fact about out of the top 25 things that consumers enjoy doing or do every week, grocery shopping was 24th, which was lower. than going to the dentist. And that was a terrible fact. We've come so much further along since then. The stores are much better than they were in the early... Well, I guess it was in the mid-90s. But that was a fact. The other fact was that 78% of the products that a consumer put in their basket, they bought every week.

So then you've got a high level of redundancy there. It's almost like mowing the lawn or doing the laundry. There was no adventure. So that's why they would pursue online grocery because they just create that basket. click to buy this basket and add a few things. So I think that that's gamification. You know, I haven't...

seen a whole lot. Maybe in a convenience store, maybe gamification would work because that's a different mission, a different mindset when they go in a convenience store. But in a grocery store, they just want to get the food that they're going to need. that week for their family.

Buy the freshest produce, the best meats, all of that. So I'm not sure about gamification in grocery. There could be some folks out there that are not going to like that comment, and I apologize. Well, I think what we're seeing more is... And I think it's broad in retail is around personalization, but obviously...

You have to be willing to share your data with the retailer brand and there has to be some value that you see. And I think we're still in the early days of that, right? We've been just right from a tech stack perspective, just having, right.

CDPs and all of that kind of in place so that they can't extract the data they need. But it is interesting when you start to think about, you know, the amount of people I know who have food allergies, myself included. But, you know, if you can get a more tailored...

And I'll tell you, it was interesting. When I was diagnosed with celiac at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, I kid you not, the doctor said to me, and it was like one of those things, you should go to your local Whole Foods and ask. them to kind of walk you around the store and show you what you can eat and and that's what i did and they were amazing but it's it is interesting in terms of just i think for a lot of people the lack of information about their their condition how to kind of

take care of it. And I know, you know, there's some really large grocers like Kroger who really try to lean into this, right, to help the consumer. I think it's really interesting, right, when you start to think about, I mean...

I've always thought about, I know you think this way as well, is that if you think about food as medicine and 70 to 80 percent, depending on whose numbers you look at, right, of what you eat is what determines your health. I mean, the opportunity in a grocer or for a brand. It's immense. It's the opportunity, but also it can be the burden. Yeah. I think today's generation and the millennials prior to them are really the generations that put their money where their mouth is on health.

I think they've really, they are very ardent. They do see food as fuel. They see fuel as medicine. They make choices around that. When I was in the e-commerce site, you know, we had a vision of you and myself would go into our... online grocer, and we would have a different profile. We would check the profile. Yours, you'd say, I'm celiac. You know, I might say I'm trying to avoid these foods, sugars, or whatever. I might be a diabetic. I'm not, thank goodness, but I could.

And you check those boxes and all of a sudden all you see in that grocery store online are the products you can consume or feel good about consuming. And I think we've moved into that. that genre now. We're getting close. I've talked to a number of folks that are saying that's right around the horizon to be able to have my store, my grocery store. And I had in the items that I saw, they didn't make any...

You mentioned gamification and you mentioned personalization. I think personalization far outweighs gamification in the grocery business. And if you can show me just those items that I can or want to consume or my family can or wants to consume. That's a huge service. And I believe Kroger started some of that. And I noticed that Amazon Fresh is starting to pop some more stores up. And maybe they'll take that approach as well.

But, you know, it's out there. The technology's there. And it makes sense. Yeah, I think that's the way, you know, that's the way it should be, frankly. Were you surprised?

During, after the pandemic, however we want to look at the timeframe, right? We saw outsized growth of online for obvious reasons. And many had predicted that kind of that line would... keep its direction but we've obviously seen it fall back i've always believed that right for for certain products for certain people right it's like apples right because if i order them online like there's a bag of eight three are bruised and

It's more just a hassle, right, like of all that. What do you think it takes to see 20, 25 percent penetration in grocery? And is there a catalyst to get us there or is it just kind of trudging along? Yeah, I don't know what the percentage is now. I know it's not 20, 25. It's like 12. Yeah. You know, time will tell. I know when we first started down this track, the shopper felt a level of guilt to have. Her product. Her.

grocery products delivered to the house. When we talked to female shoppers, they would say, I feel like that's part of what I offer. That's my gift to the family is to go and shop for them and to have some. Bring it in is kind of like cheating. Well, that's that generation is is has dissipated. It's now you now have.

You know, two or three generations post that that are very comfortable with ordering online. They don't see it and shouldn't have seen it in the first place as some sort of a deficit. And so I think it's going to grow over time. But what you don't know... is what other factors are going to contribute to that. If we have AI, if we have robotics, if we have three-day work weeks, people might just want to go to a grocery store. They might want to shop. They might want to do something.

Where we started in online grocery was when we were all very busy, and we still are all very busy. But the promised land looks like I'm going to have a robot mowing the lawn or whatever. And so that opens up.

up a whole lot of opportunities for fun stuff so just something to think of it may create some canning thing where people want to start canning again um you know it's amazing how one one shift shifts all the other things right that's such it's funny my my dad who's literally a rocket scientist his greatest joy i'm not sure why he loves and he spends hours in the grocery store

He goes up and down every aisle. He wants to spend time looking at new products. And for him, I think that it's almost like meditation. His mind kind of... And he's very present. And so it was funny you talked about people having a list. I never learned because that was just not the household I lived in. We would go up and down.

We go up and down every aisle. And sometimes we go up and down the same aisle several times, right? And that's why I always saw electronic shelf labels. I've been a big believer. We did a project like a decade ago. I think it was too early.

But to me, right, the more information, but this goes back to gamification. So I always, right, like we all, especially since I don't shop from a list, I'll always get home. I mean, I'm fortunate because the grocery store is like cross street, but I'll be like, oh, I forgot this, that, or the other. And so my whole thing is, right, if you kind of opt in and you opt in for personalized messages, especially from an ESL perspective, and it's like, you know, okay, when I buy...

Tuna fish, I usually buy some kind of cracker or whatnot, like a Melba toast, something. I'm hoping wheat things. Yeah, gluten-free. And so the challenge is, I forget that half the time, and I'm already thinking about the sparkling water.

So I think that, and I mean, and then I think you get into personalized pricing, which is a whole other opportunity I think is available. I mean, to me, and just, you know, Rick, I don't know if I've ever shared this with you. I've always been obsessed, you know, and I knew Steve Bird very, very well, right?

with grocery in particular because of the amount of data points. And, you know, I think so many people look at it as things just, first of all, it's not a simple industry in any way, shape or form, but... It doesn't necessarily, I think, get the multiple or the attention as, you know, kind of apparel footwear accessories or hard lines. Yet it is so much more complex because you have a highly perishable product. But also, right, if you look at the...

the data, right, and the changing consumer, I'm like, you see it in grocery first. Yeah. Yeah. No, you do. You do. You see a lot of things. You know, you see inflation, you see deflation, you see, you know. Flavor trends, you see. I'm an absolute retail geek. I mean, there's not a vacation that I've ever been on that dad didn't disappear for a couple of mornings. And they knew I was walking stores. I just love walking stores.

But, yeah, it's, you know, different, different. I love going to fancy food because you see trends that are emerging when you walk through the whole floor. You're like, OK, well, let's see. It seems like oils are having a trend here or, you know. or different things like that. But, yeah, I find grocery shopping, you know, I mean, I wouldn't say that it's... you know, therapeutic in any way, but it does. But I do look at grocery shopping a lot different than I think the average.

Chopper does. You know, I'm looking at power bars and why these bars are selling. And is it protein? Is it what is it? You know, and and so it's a lot of different things. And it also some of it's frustrating, like, you know. How many different flavors of orange juice do we need? You know, I mean, milk now used to be easy to buy milk. It's not easy to buy milk anymore.

Or mustard for that. I mean, I'm like, do we need 100 skews of mustard? I'm not sure that we need that, right? And it goes back to, like, where do you need choice? Where can you also eventually, I think I'm going back to the health care side, where can we start to bring in more health care into the box so that, you know, instead of getting 7% of the customer's wallet, maybe you get 10%.

That to me, I think is, and I do think going back to your Amazon Whole Foods and I mean, we're, I mean, I don't think I can walk five blocks in Manhattan now and not see a Whole Foods. And I think they, especially the acquisition of One Medical.

I think they really understand the impact of physical retail on a consumer searching to do more for their health. And I think it's going to be fascinating to see how... how that kind of plays out long-term. So I have, I want to be mindful of the time. And so if any of these questions you don't like, you can just say like pass, but we have the quick Rick tech round. And so I put together five questions.

So just say what comes to mind or pass. Can I phone a friend? Yep, exactly. Phil, you're our friend, okay? Phillip produces our podcast, so just a big shout out to him because he's amazing. All right, so number one, most underrated technology in retail or CPG today? Gosh, that's tough. because I'm all in the AI thing and all the other underrated technology. This is going to be a weak one, but I would say calculating the change for the shopper.

Or what's actually really interesting is we were with a very, very, very large tech company and they were thinking about kind of smart carts. It was fascinating. I have to say it was like one of the most fascinating conversations. But I'm like, when you look at things from purely a tech perspective and.

It does explain a lot. And so I was with the CEO and there's like 10 people taking notes. And he's like, you know, do people really care right while they're shopping about adding up like the cost of what's in the cart? And I'm like. I'm trying to think about how how to like. I'm sure some many are. I'm sure many are. Oh, I think it's like 67 percent of people. Right. Are living paycheck to paycheck. Right. And you you don't want to get up to the front.

and be embarrassed. I mean, it's one of the reasons that dollar stores came out in the first place, right? Because I can add five plus one plus 10, right? Pretty easily. And so I do think it's interesting, right? The change, but also is there a way for the consumer to know kind of along the way, right?

what the total is. All right. So that's number one. I was thinking you were talking about low tech solutions. So go ahead. All right. Number two, a tech trend you think is overhyped. Overhyped. I don't know. I don't. overhyped trend. What do you think about robotics in the store? I don't think it's overhyped. I think it's going to be very much a part of...

a part of the industry. That was the first thing I thought about. You know, what's the two most hyped things right now are robotics and AI, in my opinion. Yeah, I can't come up with anything that's overhyped. Yeah, it was fascinating. I felt very fortunate to be invited. by Goldman Sachs to, I had two folks from EJ's Wholesale Club on the stage, their head of supply chain and their head of stores. And we talked about, they'd done a rollout with Cindy and just, I think.

No matter how they sliced or diced it, this was more to be kind of a factual conversation about what they're seeing. And they were like, our in-stocks are better, how we communicate with our customer, our relationship with our vendors. And it was interesting because everything you thought that it would do.

Not only was it ahead of the curve, but they were trying to kind of accelerate the rollout because of the ROI they'd gotten. And that's not something we hear often. So I think that that's interesting. All right. Number three.

Your favorite product innovation from your career. Oh, gosh. Favorite product innovation. You know, believe it or not, it was one of the more recent ones when Oreo came out with gluten-free Oreo. That was going to be mine. And then when they came out with Mint, I'm like, oh, and now I get double stuff. I'm like, stop.

You know, I don't know about the double stuff, but the mint and the regular was I was like I was like gluten free Oreos. What's that all about? But you know what? In my career, I never had more telephone calls or emails or texts. from consumers thanking me like I had anything to do with it. thanking me for gluten-free Oreo because it's for the first time in their child's life they're going to be able to enjoy an Oreo or something. And I thought, well, that was pretty interesting.

So I'd have to say that. I would say in general, Oreo, I'll tell you another quick story. I had a friend who said his father was very deep into Alzheimer's. And he told me, he said, you know, the only way I can get my dad back. is if I bring a box of Oreos with me.

He said, and all of a sudden, it's like that. It snaps. It's just his childhood. He starts thinking about, you know, and we're together for those moments. And I thought, well, you know, I don't know a brand that can pull that off. And that just warmed my heart to hear that.

that's very meaningful. I mean, I'll tell you how I know that gluten-free Oreos are, are all that is because that's what I buy. I'm the only C-like in our household. And the other day I went to get one and I mean, I will have all three. Right. When I go to the store, I kind of hide them. I have like my own shelf, my like gluten free shelf. I'll hide them. They were all gone. And so you're good. They're good. I mean, hey, I it's yeah, it's only where I've had and, you know.

since 2010 so i i may not be but i think they're great and like i said we're literally buying them on a weekly basis although i don't get that many of them so that's that's how i know and i think it yeah i think to be able to kind of have packaging that looks like everybody else and whatnot and i think for kids right that's that's that's huge um all right number four and this may

be the same as number three, one R&D decision you are proudest of. What I'm most proud of right now is I took a pretty hard stance on food dyes. over the last couple of years. And because I've known a number of issues associated with food dyes and... it made no sense to me that we would put things in food that we wouldn't put on our skin. And so I kind of jumped into that one. I'm very pleased with...

with what's happening. And I truly believe when I talked to retailers about it, they were like dumbfounded. They were like, wait, what? And they were all over it. So I do believe that the retailer community played a played a key role in this and certainly in terms of enabling it, enabling a solution. And so, you know, and I truly don't believe that our companies.

would ever do anything to harm the consumer. I think somewhere along the way, the Food and Drug Administration lost their way. It used to be when I was with Proctor, we were... constantly in touch with food and drug, and they kept us way in the center of the lane. No white, not on the white, not on the white line. And I think over time that that relationship changed in our industry. Not sure why. Probably got a little bit to do with money.

But I'm really happy to see that we're, as an industry, focused on removing food dyes and trying to make our products more healthy, particularly against the same brands in other parts of the world.

Yeah, it's really interesting you bring that up because when that topic first came to light, as a researcher, I went kind of way, really far down the rabbit hole. And I... was surprised by how many challenges there are. And I think this is just the beginning. I do appreciate that we are all so much better informed. And a lot of what I read is just that the FDA just got overwhelmed, right?

Maybe it goes back to the structure or operations or process, but that they had kind of had another process for a lot of approvals, which led to... you know, us having things in our food that probably wasn't, you know, the best for us and longevity. And so I do think we're on a path to see that change. I think that the consumer has kind of spoken that they're very supportive of that. And I agree with you. It was one of those things that...

I didn't expect to learn so much from going on that journey, but I've also been excited to see kind of how the industry has reacted. All right. So number five. What is the technology you wish you had access to when you started at Safeway? So we're going way, way back. Scanners.

That's easy. When I started, it was way too young to remember this, but there were cash registers that had... A row of nines, a row of eights, a row of sevens, that was my cash register, and that was the technology of the day. It went from that to just a square with one through ten, one through zero, zero through nine. And then after I after I moved on, they went to scanners. I'm going, that's just not fair.

It's fascinating now. I was at NRF APAC in Singapore this year in June, and I met with Zebra, Diebold Nixdorf, and GK Software. And what was so interesting is not only how a lot of this technology can help with shrink, right, intentional shrink, if you will, but also age verification. And so if it's like the machine versus it's the associate, I think it's a lot easier. And just seeing kind of even in the shrink side of it.

how, right, the tech can be like, oh, you know, they'll go back and actually, I mean, it was, I was sitting there like, honestly, dumbfounded because. At NRF in January, right, this is all kind of theoretical. And to have the tech, right, going back to, like, the speed of development with AI, it was showing the consumer, right, are you sure you don't want to kind of, like, re-scan that? And it's showing them, like, putting their hand over the...

Is that right? And I was like, but, you know, it's good because there's not an associate in the middle of it. Two, right, the consumer can make the decision. Either they're going to rescan it or not. And three, when it comes to age verification, right, you're talking about, right, you know, a lot of people taking out your license and this, that, and the other. The time that that saves, but also just the much better, you know, kind of experience for the associate.

Yeah, it's fascinating. So I want to thank you for such a rich conversation. And I want to leave with one very last question, which is for those individuals graduating college today, and as they're thinking about... where they want to work. We've seen, I have to say, an impressive interest in retail. And I think a lot of it's around the data, right? The amount of data. But what advice do you have to people as they begin their careers?

And what are some of the words of wisdom you wish you had had when you started your career? Well, first of all, I'm just so passionate about young people considering our industry. When you think about it, I don't care what you want to do, if you want to be a doctor or a lawyer.

Real estate, if you want to build, if you want to manage or lead, that can all be done in our industry. And you can shift around. You can move from one function to the next. It's a rich... Very rich career. It's not just about stacking peas. It's not about putting milk in bags and all that stuff. It's much bigger and much better than that. It's also a small industry. I'm blown away, and you know this, how many people you know.

you know, throughout the industry at very high levels, at all different levels. But it's not this behemoth that you can't get your arms around. And the culture is incredible. It's all about they're just regular folks wanting to succeed. Wakes up in the morning looking for ways to screw up your day. You know, it's a great industry, and I highly recommend it. I was so proud our daughter decided she wanted to go into our industry. So she did that.

You know, after she went to a couple of other industries, and it was a learning experience for me how different the cultures are within other industries than ours. So, yeah, no, it's a very collegial industry. As you think about kind of how, you know, how a lot of folks who are graduating, right, how they think about data from our industry, right? And so is that a bigger draw at the industry than, you know, kind of maybe what it used to be? Because, right, data is a new oil.

And how you can understand the consumer, how you can understand the brands, how you can understand your own performance, right? It's like lightning fast now. Yeah, it is. And also, you know, the supply chain technologies that we have now that are emerging. I mean, it's fascinating. We're getting a lot of young people want to be part of logistics, supply chain, that sort of thing. So it's, you know, it's...

It's a science. There's many sciences within our industry. And, you know, and leadership is a big deal, too, being a great leader, being a, you know, and there's a lot of mentoring going on. So it's, yeah, no, I think it's a great industry. to be a part of it, I wouldn't change a thing. I really wouldn't. I would have stayed and done exactly what I did. And it was all by luck. All of it. Well, you create your own luck. And Rick, you've been an amazing mentor to so many of us.

And I think that your words of wisdom carry a very heavy weight. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you for having me. Everyone on this podcast, you know, you are very fortunate to hear from Rick, who is truly a legend in retail. Thanks again. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thanks, Debra. And thank you for joining us this week. Coresight Research is here to help brands, retailers, and retail tech companies chart a path in a challenging market.

Visit us at coresite.com to access over 7,000 reports, databanks, videos, webinars, podcast episodes, event recaps, and more. Have a wonderful day, and we'll see you next week.