Hello and welcome to Resolutions, a podcast about dispute resolution and prevention. For those of you tuning in for the first time, this podcast is brought to you by the APA section of Dispute Resolution to increase the avenues where we can connect. Our hosts serve as interlocutors, engaging in conversations with members of the dispute resolution community about topics of interest in the field. My name is Caroline Stauffer, and I'm one of your hosts.
Today's guest, Ryan Smith, Assistant University Ombuds person at Michigan State University and Hector Escalante, Misa University Ombuds person director at uc. Merced are here to discuss Ombuds Day and the internal operations of, um, butts in an organization. This is one of a two part series for Ombuds Day. And Ryan, can you share a little bit about that? Yeah, I'm happy to. Thank you. So Ombuds Day is a event commemoration that started in 2018 officially, and essentially Ombuds Day has four.
Goals. So one is to encourage the public about the Ombuds role. Another one is to encourage greater use of Ombuds programs to connect the Ombuds within their communities and to unite the Ombuds profession. So I think Ombuds Day is great. It's something that is, was started and supported by the American Bar Association Dispute Resolution Section Ombuds Committee. And one of the things that we do is to coordinate with other ombuds organization that represent different OBU sector.
For example, the uso a nasop, the International Ambu Association, and Coho, the Coalition of Federal obu. To kind of bridge the gaps and to work with other OBU sectors to celebrate some of these commonalities. So I'm excited to be a part of it this year. And you've mentioned some organizations, nasop, Is that correct? Nasop is the National Association of State and Long Term Care Ombuds.
And the us So A is the US Ombuds Association, and that's the organization that represents more of the classical, governmental, um, style of Ombuds. And then Nasop is the organization that represents state long term care, obu. So this year, the aba. Subcommittee is putting on, uh, we'll have a webinar on days October 13th, and the theme is a consideration of, it's called Pathways to Ombuds in. So how do people find the role? How do people come into the role?
How do people navigate a career as an ombuds? And that was something that the, that the subcommittee was really excited to talk about. And I think it's something that would. Great perspective as these different sectors kind of explore the, the people that make up the profession. And so I'm really excited to have that conversation. Excellent. Well, maybe we should do a recording after on Bud's day to see, you know, what outcomes came about. Absolutely.
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing more about on Budds Day and talking about Pathways. We do have here, Hector, I feel like I, I, I need. To say your name, the way I, I, I was born, raised these types of names. Um, so we've got Ecto, Ante, mea, Yes. So, um, do people get mostly intimidated when they hear your name at First ? Yeah. Yeah. I get, I've gotten, I get called Oscar a lot, um, and I don't know why, maybe I look back in Oscar, but yeah. My, my name is e Mea. Obviously you don't have.
Keep the age silent. A lot of people call me, heck, like, What the heck? So, and honestly, it's mostly my white friends that call me. Heck, And that's perfectly okay too. So, yeah. Hector's fine. Yes. That might be a little interesting to hear during an imbu conversation, but, but you know what, can you share us a little bit about your journey and, and basically pathway to where you are today?
Yeah, it's a great question and I think there's a dissertation in there, some kind of research study about the pathways to Ambu Z and you know, uh, when I first. Heard about this position, it was called Ombudsman, uh, more traditionally ombudsman, right? We've dropped the man, the man part to make it gender neutral. Even the International Ombuds Association has done that. So never that recently. Um, yeah, Recently. Yeah. Cuz I, I, I, I've noticed. That it was always ombudsman.
So just recently it has turned to Ombuds. Right. Oh, wow. And, um, Nice. On the, uh, International Ombuds Association website, everything is now ombuds. Some people use Ombuds person. I've even heard the term obuddy, which I think is kind of cute. Um, but, um, never heard the word. Yeah. Was ombudsman. I didn't even know what it was. I was working at the University of the Pacific as a curriculum development manager and a, uh, adjunct professor.
When this position came up and I just ignored it because I didn't know what it was. So a friend of mine said, a colleague said, Hector, you need to apply. You'd be a perfect ombudsman. I took her up on it, interviewed, and lo and behold, I got the job. Obviously, I think there was a little bit of maybe, you know, divine intervention or just pure luck. But the reason I got the job was they someone with a certain skillset that knew the organization. So I was an, I am an alum.
You know, adjunct professor also working in administration. So I had a pretty good view and sense of what was going on with the, with the org at the time. And I was hearing stuff because as a trainer, you know, as a learning and development person, you're out there meeting people. So I would get people coming to me going, heck, or help me with my department. I, I don't know how to fix it.
Dysfunctional, you know, I have people that are mad at each other, so I, I cut my teeth kind of in conflict re. Through this, uh, learning and development position. But honestly, I've been preparing to be an OBU since I was a little kid, and I won't go into my childhood, but I grew up in a crucible of conflict. I mean, there's conflict all around me. And again, not going into detail. I had to learn how to be empathetic. I had to learn how to diffuse conflict.
I had to learn how to deal with the difficult. Father, and when I look back I realize that all that was, you know, skill building and time that I was coming to this place of being able to step into something called an Ombuds role and actually be pretty good at it. I, you know, tap myself on the pat myself on the back a little bit, but I love the job. And it's mostly because I'm putting the, a skill set into place that I've developed over decades.
You know, being a Marine Corps veteran, you know, I'm a Marine Corps veteran and yeah, go Marines. I know Navy's okay. And you know, so anyway, we go there. But , being a Marine Corps veteran, it's combat soldier. So we're in the midst of conflict. That's part of the job. And that's just managing people. I mean, just managing people, if you think about it, is conflict. You know, if you manage people, it's one of the hardest jobs in the world. So that's kind of how I secure it to Slee.
Found my way into the role. At one point I had like 60 people reporting to me, and it drove me crazy because all I dealt with was conflict. People had interpersonal conflict. Policy conflicts, process conflicts. And this is prior to, um, Budds, is that correct? IBUs, And that's what I was about to say because you, it sounded as though your friend knew some qualities, attributes that you already carried. And you mentioned your childhood. So it sounds like you've dealt with many personality types.
Right. And then obviously having a military experience, you, you get a boatload. Right, like intended , um, literally quality times, but also situational conflicts. So this really was a preparation for what you had to handle at the university, right? Yeah. And it, you know, it's a very nuanced, I would say, type of role. Some, sometimes people have no idea that ombuds even exist. And, um, the role really. Really requires someone who can put talent and skill to work to help people.
I mean, if you boil it down to what an OBU does, it's helping people through difficult situations in the workplace in a very informal way. Right? We're not a formal type of entity. And it confuses folks, especially leaders. They're like, Why doesn't they HR do that and or doesn't audit do that? Or compliance, but we're that barrier free resource for folks. Confidential, right?
A confidential resource that allows people to come and bring their real story unfiltered and man, that that takes some skill. I, I would say it takes some, it takes patience. You have to be a great listen. And you have to not be judgmental. You know, you have to be able to suspend your need to, to not only be right, but to fix things.
I'm a fixer, you know, I, I like to, to fix things, but that's something that you said that leaders come up to you and they're thinking, Oh, Isn't this the work of hr? And I wanna get back to that, that distinction between HR and Ombuds, because I think, yeah, often that does get confused. But before we go there, if you don't mind sharing with us, what does that process look like in terms of. The types of conflicts you deal with.
Sure. You take, um, what does, what does that process look like for someone? Yeah. It's a pretty clear process. So let's say someone discovers that there's Ombuds resource, and we always encourage people to call us because emails are not confidential and it's all over our literature. Our website call us and we'll schedule an appoint. Let's say someone discovers that there's an ombuds or gets referred to the ombuds, that happens a lot.
Um, and we encourage phone calls because emails are not confidential. I think everybody knows that. And then once we schedule a call, you know, if you peel back the curtain, It's basically a one-on-one conversation that starts off with a, an opening statement, something like this, you know, thanks for trusting me with this conversation. Our conversation is confidential. It's informal.
Off the record, I am an independent, uh, entity, so I don't function within, you know, the formal structures of the organization. And I'm a a neutral third party. We like to use the word impart. And I usually ask my visitors, Do you have any questions about what I do? And sometimes they'll like ask like, What do you mean by confidentiality? And, you know, there is a, a, a imminent risk of serious harm to self or others is the one, you know, uh, place where we do have to report. Mm-hmm.
and I just kind of do a temperature check with them, see how safe they're feeling, see if they have any questions, and then I basically asked them, What's going on? Tell me your story, what brought you here to me? And that's where you hear the story. And I think it's the beauty of the Ombuds role is often the Ombuds role is hearing information that nobody else. Heard because the visitors afraid to say it anywhere, like HR or you know, to their supervisor and.
They can be complex and simple types of issues. A lot of it is interpersonal. A lot of, a lot of the conflict is interpersonal people dealing with a difficult boss or a difficult peer. I think my first case, a person came to talk to me cuz they didn't know how to tell their. Their cube made that they had body odor and it was given them migraines. So it was, it was like a good way to get started. Like, that's a difficult one.
Yeah. Yeah. How do you, how do you go about telling someone as that's a personal matter, you know? Yeah. You go about telling someone and, and helping, helping someone navigate such a difficult conversation. Well, and it goes back to your question about what's the process. So once I have a good sense of what's going on with a person, uh, listening to understand and, and being empathetic, then um, we start talking about how do you, you know, how do you approach this problem?
Like, what have you done at, to this point? Who have you talked to? Have you thought about what your options? And we don't recommend people to do things, but we are thought partners with them and we have them brainstorm about what, what are the possibilities. Sometimes it's real quick, you know, like, hm.
You need to read this policy, but other times it's a process of uncovering, peeling back the onion around what would help this person in this situation with the BL guy or girl or, or regardless of gender person, uh uh, right person. Um, it was about having that tough conversation. How, how do you have a kind. You know, honest conversation with this person without offending them. These are important conversations because clearly in the type of, and, and let me see if I have this correctly.
The type of Ombuds work is, is internal to organizational, to the university. It, it can be. Also external. You can also have an external ombuds. Most companies that have ombuds have internal, especially universities tend to have more internal. But like I also, uh, am a, a consultant, an ombuds consultant, and I have a few clients that I serve as an external ombuds.
Organizational on, but, And so are most of the conflicts within staff, or is it all, It could be all entities that are on campus and external from the campus. Oh, and that's determined by, sometimes by the organization. It's written in your charter.
For example, at University California, Merced, where I work full time, um, I, uh, I have an associate and we serve everybody, uh, faculty, staff, students, parents, vendors, anybody who wants to talk about something going on in the university, they can come to us. For my external clients, I'll give you an example how to deal with. Um, I have another client that, um, uh, it's a, a law firm, so a lot of lawyers, right, with their own unique types of, of, um, conflict.
So it just depends on the organization and how they want the ombuds to function. It's really driven by the org in a lot of ways. Um, but ideally, right, an obu. Can serve up to about 10,000 people or so. And that kind of can dictate like, okay, how many, who can the obu see if, if there's more than that? I mean, like at uc, Merced, we have, I don't know, almost 10,000 students. So that's a big population plus staff and faculty. So what is that distinction?
I think this is a good time to kind of share what is that distinction between HR and Ombuds. That's a great question, and often leaders will ask me that. Like, Well, I could tell you stories, but I won't right now. I mean, that's what we're here for. Stories. Stories to learn from. I want to, Yeah, honor confidentiality. The, the main distinction, Well, first, let me back up a little. So one thing that Ombuds does not do is take the place of any formal entity regardless of what it is.
So most companies have, you know, hr, now they're calling them chief people officers, or uh, people in culture. There's now different buzzwords, but it's human resources in a different, you know, with a different, um, jacket on. Sure. Um, we don't take the place of HR. Often collaborate with hr, but we were not there to function in, in an HR like way. And the biggest distinction is that we're informal. So when you're talking to the Ombuds, you're not talking to the organization.
You're not putting the organization on notice when you're talking to HR or any other formal entity. You're, you're talking to the organization and you're putting the organization on notice at some level, maybe not a really high level or low level, but at some level, You're talking to a formal entity with the A, with the AMD's role, you're not, you're, it's an informal resource off the record, right? Back to that, off the record piece that allows someone to really share what's going on.
And I'll say, Ryan, you, you probably experience this. Leaders have a hard time with that because they're like, You mean you have information? I don't have that. Maybe I need, but that's not what it is. It's more. Being a resource for folks that can bring stuff to the Ombuds that might not come up because they're afraid or there's just no way for them to get that information out without it being confidential.
So then our job is to find a way to, if it's a trend, if it's a high level problem, find a way to to get this to leaders so that they can address. Without compromising confidentiality. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. So I mean, we just hearing you talk about this, it sounds that handles and caters to per personality types that handle conflict, whether you're an avoidant type of person or you compromise all the time. And really just talking about kilman. Yeah. Um, right now.
Yeah. But one, one thing that I'm curious about is how often do leaders not understand? In terms of do they not realize that individuals need a sounding board or proper guidance? I think earlier you mentioned about, Yeah. Referring to the a guidance or the policy, do they realize that eventually, or does, is it more often a problem among leadership to recognize these things? I, it can be a problem.
So I've seen opposite shut down because there was either a lack of understanding or just a blatant, you know, disregard for the OBA's role because there were other priorities. Sometimes it's financial, right? An organization says, Well, we can't afford you anymore. But it really depends on the leader and what type of leader they are.
I think open-minded leaders will at least listen to the argument that a nobus brings an incredible amount of value to the organization, and, uh, and then assess that for themselves. I've seen leaders who just don't want to hear it. They're, I would say, afraid of the role. Because of this idea of it being a dark Walt, right? Where information goes, that could be risky. Um, often general counsel struggles with this kind of role because, you know, their job is to protect the organization.
So, and, and, you know, um, Ombuds don't have privilege, like, like practicing attorneys and, you know, psychological counselors. We don't, The court has not said Yeah, but says privilege, so we have to fight. And advocate for that confidentiality and make a strong argument to leaders about it and show why it brings value. And it goes, it really goes back to Ombuds being a change agent and helping leaders with their climate.
But that can only happen if the Ombuds is confidential because we're hearing things that other people aren't. Oh, e, exactly. So that's actually where I was gonna lead into is do you find that, um, Can be put into a position that sways or goes one side for the leadership instead of being that neutral, because they know all that information. And what I mean by that is often in certain org organizations, employees feel that they can't go to HR because they're only for the management. Right.
You know, one of the, the standards of Practice ethical standards is to remain impartial even with leaders. And also confidential, you know, and Abus has a lot of information sometimes that people want and sometimes leaders will ask. I'll give you an example. I was working somewhere and I was working with a person. That person then went to HR and told them the same story, and then it became more of a formal type of grievance. HR called me and said, Hector, we're talking with so and so.
They indicated that they talked to you. We need everything you know about this person. We need your records. We need to. What your conversations were like with that person at that point? I have a choice, right? And, and I have to be very clear about what I can and can't do. And first of all, an ombuds shouldn't even divulge that they talk to that person.
I will often say, I can either confirm nor deny that I've had any conversations with that person, and I have no records at all to give you, because I don't keep records. That gets back to folks, right? That they're told HR. About my conversation that gets around fast or that I went to, um, Buds in the first place. Right? Yeah. So it's, it's a balancing act of times.
I can give you, uh, dozens of examples like that where, you know, some, someone like General Counsel will reach out and say, Hey, I'm, you know, we're getting sued and your name came up. Can you help me out? And I want to, but you know, I can't, I can't really share. Yeah, well that is really informative in terms in, in the spectrum of, you know, um, buds in, in university level.
And, and, and I don't wanna just pinhole it just to the university level because this is be about, um, buds in organizations. Right. So this is great insight. Thank you so much. Um, I do have a, a final question, which is where do you see Ombuds changing or has it changed and where do you see it evolving? Yeah, that's a great question and thanks for asking that.
I think one of the things that is really apparent is how Ombuds are, are interacting with dei diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging experts and departments and, and also. Uh, issues around race or any of the isms. Uh, the Ombuds role has become an integral part of that conversation, and yet there's a distinction between an ombuds and let's say a a, you know, vice president of of dei. And that's an ongoing conversation.
Something I'm looking deeply into because I do think there are distinctions between how an output functions and how. For example, you know, a de a professional in, in any organization functions, and yet they're, they're, they're collateral, they're parallel types of entities.
I, the other part I would say about this, to wrap it up is, We'd like, I don't, I didn't say this, but I'm on the board, International Ombuds Association Board, and one of the things we, the royal we is, we'd like to see more eds right out there in organizations. The goal is to have one in every organization. It's a high, you know, a high goal, and yet it's worth a striving for because we really believe that any organization can benefit by having an organizational OBU within their s. Absolutely.
That is so true for today, especially with the things that have been happening as of current. But if you've been practicing for a while, you know how impactful words are, how impactful it is to have the proper people in, in a, in a room, and I'm just, it sounds like, um, buds is. Is taking active role, I think a lot of other ADR sectors are as well. Right. So it's a good change to see and I'm even excited to see how it will look like in in the future as well.
On the on the evolution piece, which I just think is interesting and maybe helpful, is the fact that Bud is a relatively young profession. I mean, really the obu as we as we know it, the organizational ombuds especially emerged in the late 1960s in the United States, and so. Even those of us who arepas practitioners now are fairly new to the field, and so there's been a lot of evolution and there will continue to be a lot of evolution I think, moving forward.
And I feel like it's really picking up. Yeah, and I'll just add that what's happened over the last two, three years, Has really encouraged leadership in organizations to think about resources for their employees. How can we help our employees? And Ombuds often is a very strong recommendation. And then sometimes it's because there's a need and an organization is having issues that. That the Ombuds role will be recommended to help put those kind of bigger problems.
I know that my last question, you know, I shouldn't have said that. Now, this is my last question is , is how does an agency, an agency that clearly should have Ombuds, maybe recognizes that they need, How do they even engage in Sure. Bringing on a no. Sure. And you know, it starts with, um, do you want an internal ombuds or an external obu? And, uh, the ioa, International Obu Association has a site dedicated to contract abus that companies can look at and, and interview folks.
And there are also, um, a lot of professionals out there that help start offices for, you know, different organizations. I know a few of them. I've done it myself, and it, I think it really depends on, on what the goal of the organization. And, and what kind of issues they're dealing with. But, uh, a startup Ombuds office. You know, there's, there's even a course on the nuts and bolts of starting an ombuds, um, position on the IOA website.
So there's different, there's a process to it, but different approaches to it. It comes back to what's the need and what's the goal. That is good to know, especially for those who are very interested in getting buds onto their organization. Um, with that said, are there any last things that you wanna share? The audience. Well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me. I was excited to do this, and it's been a pleasure meeting you and getting to know you a little bit.
And Ryan, you know, we've known each other for a few years now, and I, I just am really excited that you invited me and I'm a part of this conversation. So thank you so much. Really excited about it. Thank you again, uh, Hector and Ryan for being here today. Thank you.