Welcome everybody to the Resilient Leadership Podcast, where everything that we talk about is aimed at helping you to lead with a greater sense of calm, clarity and conviction, even in anxious times. And as always, I'm joined today by my trusty collaborator co-host and colleague Irvine Nugent. And Irvine, you're joining me today from, I think it's Dallas, I wanted you chime in and say hello folks. Yeah, hi everyone, I am. I just got into Dallas. I have a workshop tomorrow. And it is a hot
and humid Dallas. It's a presently 103. And this Irish guy, even though I made 20 years in Florida, hates humidity and hates the weather that hot. So I don't do well. But you know, there you go, Bridgette, are you okay in hot climates? How do you react to humidity and heat? You know what, I do a lot better and hot than I do in cold. Now, let me tell you, Texas is the hottest place I've ever been on earth. So I'm feeling pain. That sounds good. Well, we're going to
talk about a little bit of heat, except the heat's going to come from anxiety today. We're kind of teen up the episode we did last week, where we've been reviewing some of the central and core areas of resilient leadership and the principles that really are at the heart of many of the episodes that we've recorded. And so today, we're kind of going to continue that, except the review today
is really going to focus about our own functioning. How do we function? And how really the importance of that for effective leadership and how we function really in the midst of heightened anxiety? Bridgette, you know, as part of this conversation, we're continuing that theme off of systems and how important systems is to leadership. So let's just be in there and maybe perhaps could you just say a little bit more about that perspective? Sure. So a couple of things come to mind, Irvin,
I mean, one is that in relationship systems, what effects one affects all? And I think we underestimate sometimes the fact that we are intimately and profoundly connected to one another for better and for worse. So what that means is that all day long, we are transmitting our emotions, our moods, our anxiety to other people and they're doing the same to us and of course this is all happening beneath conscious awareness. And so simply put, we are contagious to one another.
A leader is the most contagious person of all in any system, right? Because followers are so attuned to you. So that's that's number one. And number two is because of that, everything you say or do as a leader sends ripples into the the water, if you will, the emotional system. You know, we use that iceberg metaphor a lot of times, right? And the emotional system lies beneath the water.
And your actions as a leader are profound. And so what I share with my clients is you might not realize this, but every time you speak, whether it's verbally in a meeting or in an email, it's like you're talking through a giant megaphone. The volume is amplified. And just as your functioning impacts other people, their functioning impacts you in ways that you might not always be aware of.
You know, here's the bottom line, none of us, none of us as human beings live on an island. And therefore none of us are immune to being infected by the anxieties and the reactivity of others. And this is where we really want to focus today because if we're not being mindful observers of ourself and how we're showing up in a relationship system, it's really easy to get hijacked and to allow the reactivity of others to affect us in ways that don't really define who we are.
You know, or how we want to be. So, you know, Irvin, I'm curious for you, when you think about all the years that you spent leading other people, some of those times were anxious times. Can you think of an example where that happened to you where you got swept up in the swirling anxiety and you reacted instinctively in a way that really truth be told didn't really define your better self. Oh yes, I can. Actually, and I think I'd have to point to the first real experience of
leading a larger organization. And I think I may have mentioned this before was a Catholic Charities. It was quite a large workforce. And when I got into the job, it was kind of my first time leading something that big. And I knew that there was there's always stress for the new leader and anxiety. But what happened was that people started coming up and you know the carpet and said, well, you know, this wasn't dealt with. You need to do this. And you need to deal with that.
And there was kind of little swirling machinations around the whole organization. And then there was kind of this little thing about there was going to be budget cuts, which actually had no bases in reality whatsoever. So this anxiety was being heightened. And my response was not my best self. I got very triggered. And then I almost without being fully aware got caught up into what was happening. And so I became almost like I became overly curious about what are people
saying? And what's people saying? And so I go to the COO and I said, like, what are people what's the latest? And then how are people reacting to me? And then I became overly concerned about how they were what they were saying about me and the midst of that. And then I myself then, even in my other systems outside of the work system, then I became you know kind of a meshed in that and kind of let me tell you the latest about that. And this is happening. And that's
him. And can you believe this person would do that? And it took me a while. I took me actually two or three months actually on vacation. I was away from it. And I was like, wow, you are awful. You are so caught. And I was wondering, I'm exhausted. Why am I exhausted? And it was this like like wow, like you know, I kind of had visions about how I would lead. And it just didn't happen.
And that was the beginning of a reset. But it took a little bit of a break, it getting away to see, whoa, you are so entangled in all of this. Yeah, that is such a great example. And you had to get some distance, didn't you? From what was happening to see yourself and how you were showing up. And as I listened to you,
it's clear that you became very other focused. Right? You know, yes, we're here today to talk about focusing on our own functioning with the understanding that in anxious relationship systems, it's just so easy to go in the opposite direction and become kind of obsessively focused about what other people are doing, what they're saying, what they're not doing, how they're frustrating us. And I heard that in your story. So, Irvin, why do you think it is so easy for all of us?
And we all do this to become other focused. And what does that look like? I mean, your story gave us lots of clues, but share with our listeners a little bit more about what that looks like. And why it's such a normal response to anxiety? Well, I mean, I think it, first of all, to be human is to absolutely, and we've said this time and time again, is to be not only aware of,
but reactive to anything that we perceive as threat. When we are in an anxious organization, and when other people feel threatened by what's happening, it's very easy for us to get immersed in that. And then the next logical step from that is to be overly concerned about what's happening to other people, what are they saying, what are they doing? And really, you know, what happens
is we have these constant conversations in our head. We become consumed by this. And I think I mentioned it, for me, it was exhausting because it takes a lot of real estate in your head. It becomes draining and distracting. And really, you lose sight of your own functioning and your own behavior in the midst of that. You kind of know you're in that, you know, what are some of the ways you might know you're in that space is, you know, your level of complaining goes up, blaming,
you know, kind of like, who's fault is this? And then we've, we've talked about creating triangles. You know what triangles is a natural phenomena where we're able to displace some of the anxiety we're feeling not by going to the person that is causing the anxiety, but rather pulling someone else in so that we can feel better when we offload with that person. And so therefore, you know,
what's really needed in this is is the stepping back. It is because if we can step back and that may not be physical, but it's certainly creating some space that we can actually see what's happening and understand about how immeshed we have become into this this anxiety, which is swirling around us. I think this is a phenomena which we as coaches, I think we get to see quite a bit because, you know, we've talked a lot about we're in this business space, this environment, where there is
a lot of change, there's a lot of anxiety. How do we respond? So I'm curious, Bridget, have you seen this in a client where, you know, they have really become other focused in the midst of the anxieties swirling around them? I have and I actually have an example to share that I think our listeners are going to really relate to. And I want to say at the outset that I talk to this person who I coached a couple of years ago and asked permission to share her example. And also to
kind of remind myself of some of the details. So what happened is that the person I was coaching was managing a high visibility project where a lot was at state and everything was going along fine until the project had a bit of a snag and some metrics started to come in that suggested things were a little off track and those metrics were being shared with everybody, not just my client, but her boss and other senior leaders. And this triggered her boss who was kind of new to the company.
And he got really anxious. These metrics made him like, whoa, what's going on? And he swooped in and started coming to meetings unannounced and asking a bazillion questions that weren't even really relevant because he was new and he didn't really know that much. And you know, he started micro managing essentially. And of course, this really frustrated my client who really felt like she had everything under control, but he was acting as if she didn't have it together. He's been
curried. He was being impatient. He wasn't really adding a lot of value. He wasn't being particularly supportive. And I think what happened is my client just grew increasingly frustrated and even angry. And so here's where to your point about being other focused, right? Her own anxiety led her to start doing some of the things you just mentioned, blaming, complaining, triangulating, right? She would go home at night and talk to her spouse about this guy and how he
was clueless. And that would lead to some bad sleep, right? It didn't make her feel better when she went to bed. And she did share with me that she would talk to some of her peers and they were all on the same page. Like, what is this guy doing? And that felt better in the short term that like complaining together, but it didn't really move her forward per se. And I think that she just got more firmly entrenched in this other focus such that pretty much what we started talking about
all the time was her boss's bad behavior. And it just so funny because I remember it like it happened yesterday. And yet it was a couple of years ago, I could see to your point, Irvin, that this manager had taken up massive real estate in her head and was draining all of her energy and her sense of being empowered. So as I listen to that, Bridget, it's almost retry growing for me because
I can I can so identify with it. And maybe, you know, maybe I'd just invite our listeners, you know, I maybe you are that person now right now, you are in this situation where there's something happening. There's a bad boss, something's going on. I just invite you just to stop and think, is this consuming me? What like what what's how am I responding to this? Or if it's not happening at the moment, I'm sure you can think of something in the recent past where perhaps something was
happening. So I'm curious now, Bridget, you know, how did this client, how did she move on? What was it that helped her perhaps realize that I'm sure it was a gift for her to have coaching and you may have asked some questions. But yeah, tell us how she moved beyond that level of functioning. Yeah. And so this was the part that I had to kind of talk to her about to remember the details.
I knew I asked her some questions. And then she reminded me what they were. And so the first question I gave it to her is homework because these are not questions that you have an immediate response to. No, no, no, you have to kind of like step back and really get curious and think about it. So the first question and these are questions that we've mentioned in various forms in ways.
Some of them, you know, in previous previous some episodes. But the one I gave her from homework is I said, okay, what I want you to think about is how are you reacting to this relationship pressure, this micro managing from your boss? And is it helping or hindering you and your team? Now, what I said to her too is now remember that reacting is not the same thing as responding, reacting is automatic, instinctive and in response to stress, stress and pressure.
That's what I want you to be curious about. What do you see there? And there may be some helpful responses that you see. Look also for anything that you're doing that is hindering you in your team. And that would be forms of reactive behavior. So, you know, she took that on and I wasn't sure what she would come back with. But guess what? At the next coaching session, she had some good insights. Interesting. By the way, I love that. I love it's is my reacting helping or hindering.
That can be a little painful at time. It can be painful to it. Yeah, you know, because you I think the part of part of what's the problem is I think you feel justified in feeling like you do. But then it's then it's to move from that to think, yeah, but really that's not serving the situation. It's not serving me or the team. So now I'm curious. And what were some of those insights?
What did she come up with? What do you remember her biggest insight was that she said, I see that I am venting a lot and she said, I feel sorry for my spouse because I'm complaining about my boss every night and we start out with the glass of wine and then it's two glasses and I'm still talking about, you know, my boss and I don't know that that's really fair. And I'm also venting to my
peers and she says, I'm not sure that's the right thing to do. And I I feel like what I'm probably doing is spreading my own angst, but I don't know where else to go with that, which I thought was a really good question. I mean, it's lonely sometimes, right? So I really want to ask you that question, Irvin, where do leaders go to vent? And is it appropriate to vent and if so, how? You know, that's such a great question. I think I want to answer maybe in a few different ways.
So I think first of all, let's be real and let's be human here, you know, so we all are in situations where we just need a vent. We need to get some steam off us and very often we're going to look for a person of safety to do that. And so that's why our spouses and partners and friends get it first because we feel safe with them. But I think in that situation, I think you mentioned something
there. It was this ongoing. I think there's nothing wrong. If you've had a bad day or something, you know, but then after, if you notice like, like this keeps happening, then we have a problem here. And then the other thing is, you know, I often think in a relationship, I think it's important to let the other person know, you know what, I want to vent a little bit because I think what happens with the other person, at least I know this. So I know, so sometimes Red will come home and he's just
had a horrible day and boom, he'll go into, you know, kind of like, this is what happened. And I get anxious because that is like, like, like, where's this coming from? Is this involving me? Is it not it fun? And I think he said, you know, what have a hard day? I just need a vent a little bit. And then it's okay, okay, I can just, I can be a container for that and there's no pressure. So I think it's really
helpful just to label that. And then I think it's really helpful. Then after a while to say, okay, now this is, this keeps ongoing. Then this is just, I'm swirling in it and it's not helping. So what are some other ways? I think journaling can be really helpful. I think just to kind of really write it out, let it out. I have a few clients that I don't do journaling, which is fine. And I say to them, then what I invite you to do is get your phone and record yourself and just speak it out.
And then listen to it. I said, it's really interesting when you vent it out because I think you can be curious then about like listening to yourself from a distance is really curious and I'm I'm curious about it. Well, that brings up for people. I think it's really helpful as well. Those are those are really good thoughts there, Irvin. I love that. And the fact that you really put on the table, let's let's remember we're human beings here. And sometimes we have a need to
share in safety. Yes. What we're feeling and thinking. Now, one of the things that I remember her and I discussing is be selective about who you vent to because if you vent to your peers or to your employees, that can create a snowball effect, right? And affect their behavior and their functioning. And so I said, use me as somebody who you vent with obviously and we'll problem solve together if that's what you want. And into your point about about the spouse, notice if you're getting stuck
and it goes, oh yeah, I'm getting stuck in it. So that was that was a good insight for her. And I think that initial question got her thinking a little bit less about her boss and a little bit more about herself. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit. So it's good. Good baby step forward, right? Yeah. So after that initial question, curious, what was the follow up to that? So how did she kind of move
beyond that? Well, I remember pulling out the question that I only pull out when I feel like there's trust and somebody has the courage and the curiosity and the readiness to lean into it. And it is one that you and I have talked about before and that's the question, what's my part in this? She wasn't, if I had started with that question, that would not have worked by the way. Yeah. Because the way it in fact she struggled with the question because she thought it was a question
about blame. Like, okay, well, I need to figure out how I'm causing my boss to micromanage. No, no, no, no, that's that's not what I'm suggesting. What I am suggesting is that in any relationship system as a leader, you're always having an impact, you're always playing some role in the results that are happening or not happening. It doesn't mean you cause them. It just means you're part of the system. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that insight, you know, because so often the reality, or at least the
surface reality of a situation is that I'm the victim here. That basically I haven't, it's not my fault that I'm dealing with my boss who's reactive, who's micromanaging, etc. I have not invited this on myself. And I think we become a little defensive then, but we say, well, what's my, I don't
have a part in this. I was just there. This is a drive by and this is all of a sudden the first this happens a lot as well in conflict, you know, especially when we feel we're very right in the other person, you know, and then to kind of like step back and say, hmm, what's my part in this? You know, it's a different lens and I think you're right. It isn't the first question we go to, but I think it's a helpful question. So I'm curious, like, what did she come up with when she
got out of the little chance to play around with that question? Yeah, I was really, I wasn't fired by what she came back with because I thought, well, I don't know if she's going to come back with anything. But she did. And what she said is, you know, the more I thought about it, and I started to kind of look at this with curiosity and kind of see what, you know, what was going on and so forth. She said, you know, this project was such a high visibility project and it was so
big in scope. And I was managing so many parts and pieces and resources. I was working my butt off. And I kind of had a heads down approach. I mean, I was working 10, 12-hour days. My head was down, you know, and I just kind of figured my boss could see that, hey, she's working really hard. She's got to cover it. You know, she's got it under control. And what I realized is that I was missing some things I normally pay attention to. Like, I wasn't thinking about how often should I
communicate with my boss about what's going on in this project. You know, he's kind of new to the company and I didn't want to overwhelm him. But I also just really wasn't thinking about that. I was too busy getting things done. And consequently, I wasn't proactive in my communication with him. And being a new guy, you know, wanting to prove himself, I think that triggered him.
And then when these metrics came in, since I hadn't been proactively communicating, I can see that, you know, that triggered his swooping in, you know, to pull the reins in and start micromanaging. So I was really impressed that she could see that. Again, she didn't cause his micromanaging because another manager in the same circumstance might have just simply said, hey, and let's sit down and talk about this. I see the metrics. Tell me what you and your team are doing to address them, right?
So it wasn't that she created his reaction, but she certainly contributed to the outcomes and the results and the things that were taking place. And I think that was when a light bulb really went off for her. And she was able to see that, oh yeah, I need to figure out how to keep him informed more proactively. And you came up with a, I thought a really great way of doing that. So I believe that was a turning point for her. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Kudos to her. I mean, that displays a
real level of maturity and really an ability to divorce yourself from kind of the blame. And it really kind of then move on to a much more fruitful kind of thought process and response props. Like, like, what's the best way I respond? So it doesn't matter who caused it really. It's what it is is really is how do I respond in this and how do I respond in such a way that it is it is helping the situation and improving the situation? Yeah. And I think that she got in touch
with the fact that he was anxious himself and was reacting just like her. I think that brought a little compassion into the situation. Yeah. Yeah. So anything else, you know, any other question in the midst of that that really helped her kind of formulate a different response and move on. Yeah, you know, I remember in one particular conversation, even after she started to shift a little bit and proactively, you know, focus on what she could do differently. She had just had a
meeting with her manager and he was still peppering her with a lot of questions. And she said to me, the way he does it and he does it every time comes across as distrustful and disrespectful to me. So I'm working hard here to not react, but it's just like, who does that? You know, why does he do that? And I could tell that, you know, again, she was very frustrated by that. And so the kind of the last question I remember asking her is, okay, when your boss does that, how do you want to show
up? And she's like, well, I mean, I'm trying not to get defensive. I'm trying not to be reactive. I said, well, that's good. But describe to me a little bit more about you and the kind of leader you really aspire to be. And what's the kind of example you want to set for your team? Because your team is watching all of us unfold. Talk to me a little bit about that. And how then do you want to show up when your boss does that? Because you obviously aren't able to change that right now.
And so what she eventually kind of landed on is, you know, and I remember her calling it the three seas. She said, all right, like, what I want to be is calm, clear and confident. And that's how she, she said, I'm going to just remember be the three seas. And so that's what she practiced doing in those meetings when he peppered her with all these questions. And you know, the other thing she did is she tried to anticipate what some of these questions would be.
And head them off at the past, either answer them before the meeting. Or have a ready, you know, answer for the questions when they came. So I do remember that question in unhooking her really, I think, fully now from this other focus to a focus on her own functioning. And boy, did she really grow? And I think that's when things started to significantly change in her relationship with her boss, which by the way to this stage, she has a very good relationship with.
Isn't that cool? That's really cool. Yeah, absolutely. And I love that movement. I love that outward to inward. And that what was really guiding her response now was how she had thought about, here's how I want to show up. And that's going to guide everything rather than being reactive to those around me. Yeah, yeah. All right, Irvanie, I know that we always end these conversations with a practice. So I'm curious what you're having your back pocket.
Yeah, you know, I think this follows beautifully from that last little tail of that reflection in that story. And it's one of the ways that we can respond in these situations. I think is by having those guiding principles. So the practice today will call as defying your guiding principles. And I think this really helps us make that movement from being consumed by other people around us and to really realizing that the most important thing in the midst of anxiety is defining how I show
up and abiding by that. So there's three steps to this. So step number one would be to identify a challenge that you're facing in one of your relationship systems. So it could be work, could be at home. But what's important is, is that challenge where the anxiety is on the rise and you're beginning to see some reactive behaviors. And then step two, if you've identified that, know, be curious about it, noticing how you are reacting with this pressure that's now being
put on the relationship. And just perhaps notice how you may be responding with another focus. So another focus we've talked about, maybe, you know, venting or blaming or complaining or creating toxic triangles, bringing people in so they can leave that anxiety. And then the third step is after having noticed that is really define the principles that you want to inform and guide you as you navigate this anxious system. And I think three, we've talked about three before.
So I think three principles that you could easily remember them. So let's give an example. Just imagine that pretty much like the example we've just looked at, one of your peers is inserting themselves anxiously into one of your projects. They're challenging your thinking during some of the senior team meetings. They're also creating triangles to complain about some of the decisions that you've made. You know, just think about that. I'm sure some of you are actually living that.
One or three guiding principles in that situation that you might come up with. One would be, don't take this person's actions personally. Remember, insecurity can drive us to a lot of different behaviors and that we can misinterpret some of the outside behaviors from really what's happening on the inside. The second thing then is get clear where I stand. What do I stand for in this situation? Can I communicate that in a way that is clear and in a way that is non-defensive? And then the third one
of guiding principles would be stay connected. So the easiest thing in this situation is to avoid, to avoid the person who is annoying you, rather what's really needed is that connection. Initiate one-to-one conversation, initiate the interaction. So there are three guiding principles which would be again, you know, don't take actions personally. Be very clear where I stand in the midst of this and stay connected. Perfect. And you know, guiding principles are kind of like, I know,
I think about if you go bowling, you know, what are those things on the side called? You know, where the- Oh, yes, yes. Gosh, it's so funny. I can't figure out what they're, I can't put into words what they're called, but we know what they do. They define sort of the territory for where we're shooting. And that's what guiding principles do is they give us a way to navigate a tough situation and we can come up with our own guiding principles all the more better. And that's how we
stay focused on our own functioning. So that's beautiful. Thank you, Irvin. Appreciate that. Okay, so we are really excited to tell our listeners about what is on tap for the next two episodes. Because it is the first time that we are having a guest on our show. And her name is Kathleen Smith. Some of you may be familiar with her. She is a bow and trained therapist. She's an author, a speaker, and a trainer. And she's written a couple of wonderful books. I'm going to talk to her about her
newest book, which is called True to You. And so I hope you guys tune into this because we just so enjoyed our conversation with her. And it's chock full of some fascinating and really, really practical insights that I think can help us not only at work, but at home as well. Excellent. I'm so excited. I love her work and I'm sure the conversation will be fascinating. Thank you for the conversation, Irvin. My pleasure. Take care, everyone.