Hey, and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled on a wonderful day. I'm talking to a person with a really fascinating background. We've already been talking about a background. We've been really talking about masks and all sorts of different things. So, Rob Kalwarowsky is a fascinating person with a fantastic voice. And I don't know if it's other Japan, but some of the experience of Japanese culture and life and such like. So, first of all, welcome. How the devil are you?
Rob:Great. Thanks for having me. Russell, you have the Zoom beach background. I actually, earlier this year, I moved to Costa Rica. We're not on the beach. We're in the mountains, but it's beautiful. Just like your background.
Russell:Yeah. And I have to tell you that this background is actually the northeast of England.
Rob:I'm looking for the Cliffs of Dover.
Russell:But you wouldn't find them in the Northeast, I can tell you that. So where in the world are you today? You're in Costa Rica.
Rob:Yes, sir.
Russell:Yeah. Very nice, too. Well, it's a delight for you to join us. I'm really looking forward to this. And we can go in one of two ways, can't we? We can go mindset, or we can go know, first of all, why don't you tell us a bit about yourself, Rob? What are your interests, passions? What's your life being about?
Rob:Absolutely. And this is sort of where all of this came. So I'm Canadian. I was a water polo player. I played on the junior national team. I went to MIT. I have a degree in mechanical engineering. And after college, I moved out west to work in a coal mine or, like, coal mining in British Columbia. And that was when I experienced my first bad boss or toxic boss, and he was passive aggressive. It was very much this culture. Know, we've always done it this way. We want you to pretend like you're trying to strive, but then we don't actually want to change. And now that I have this experience of mindset and all these things, is, I understand what was going on for his mindset, which prevented a lot of the work I was doing from actually being great.
Rob:But regardless, that sort of sent me down this tailspin of depression and ultimately a suicide attempt in 2013. Yeah. And the part that I want to share with folks is not that, but it's like, the morning after the suicide attempt, I woke up and I actually went to work because I was so trapped in all these beliefs and mindset about, who are you if you don't work? Who are you if you don't make money. Who are you? If you. And I knew logically, I was like, I hate my job. It's killing me, and I'm not happy. But I couldn't give myself the permission to leave, even though financially they were paying me good money. It wasn't like this element of I couldn't afford it or I needed medical insurance. It was none of that.
Rob:And then that started basically for six years I stopped asking for help. And then in 2019, I started working with Susan Hobson, who now I'm actually working with as a coach. But I hired her to help me basically learn leadership and then also launch a consulting business. I thought I was going to consult in engineering because, of course, I have an engineering degree. This started the deep dive of the self-work and the mindset work that I do. So I did work with her. I went to see a trauma therapist. We did a lot of work in that sense. I got medication and psychiatrist. And basically, from that three and a half years forward, I did a TED talk in July on leadership on bad bosses, specifically because of that.
Rob:And then also, I do a career now leadership coaching, that I never even realised was a career. And it's all due to all the deep work that I did, but also that I believe all leaders should do.
Russell:Yeah. And what do you mean by deep work? Because it's a phrase that's sort of thrown about a bit, isn't it?
Rob:Absolutely. And so, a friend of mine, David Irvine, he wrote a book about authentic leadership. We had him on the show, and he kind of went through, he calls it horizontal work and vertical work, which I really love. And so horizontal work is like, hey, we're listening to this podcast. Hey, we're reading another book. We're watching a TeD talk. We're learning. We're reading articles like this type of stuff. We're basically building knowledge. Vertical work is getting into the core of who you are. And so, it's skills like self-awareness, which actually is the number one leadership skill, then emotional intelligence, which is actually the number two leadership skill. But it's like digging into what are our values, what are our strengths? Where do we want to go as a person? Who do we want to become?
Rob:And then stuff like, what are the beliefs that I have that are not serving me or that are holding me back from reaching that highest potential and sort of choosing how we want to believe about ourselves so then we can strategically go out and get these goals.
Russell:Yeah, makes sense. And interesting. You say self-awareness is the most important leadership skill. Fascinating. So bad bosses, I think there's lots of bad bosses. I think if you have one good boss in your career, you've done above average personally, and I know I've been a bad boss. I think many of us have been in bad bosses in our career because actually, frankly, the management training and the management coaching and leadership coaching, leadership training that has been on offer has been woeful and actually, really not fit for purpose. And actually, it's very hard to see that things have changed post COVID, because a lot of people are still really pushing the same ideas.
Russell:And the research backs you up.
Rob:Russell does it well, there you are. Glad someone agrees with people once.
Rob:Yeah. So, 65% of the workforce right now experiences a bad boss. Yeah. And this can range from folks, the research calls them arrogant and violent, which are like the Darth Vader, Gordon Ramsay circa 2015, like very abusive, toxic bully, like the classic what you would think of a bad boss. But then it also ranges to the other side of what many folks are, which. It's actually around 20% of the workforce experiences these, but they're called messy or cowardly bosses, which means they're not out to get you. They're avoiding making decisions they're not great at. Management skills like planning, giving details, specifications, expectations, coaching, giving feedback, like actual, real stuff.
Russell:So what is this research you're referring to? I'm quite intrigued by it. I've got my pen ready. That's also a good sign on the podcast when someone's going to write something down, isn't it? So, what is the research?
Rob:Totally. I'll send you the link to it.
Russell:Cool.
Rob:But it's an article out of Sweden that they looked at basically private and public, like basically the whole country. And they broke it down into seven different leadership types. Six are destructive and one is not. That's the good boss. They're just known as non-destructive leaders in the research. But destructive leaders. For folks out there, it basically means two things. One is they destroy company performance, so the ability for employees to be productive, profitability, hit long term goals. That's the one side. The other side is the actual health and wellness and well-being and happiness. And some of the research, other research talks about the impacts of toxic bosses on people. And this is increases in cardiovascular disease, so you're more likely to have a heart attack, stroke, increases in major disease as well. So, like, stuff like diabetes and cancer goes up.
Rob:The other thing is increases in mental health problems. So, anxiety, depression, stuff like I experienced, and then just. Even just burnout. Right. It's like stress is really bad for our body when it's prolonged and lengthened. And so, you know, not only are you not happy, but you’re also not productive.
Russell:Yeah, that sounds about. And it's interesting because you've got the sort of boss who's. We talk about Boris Johnson having the reverse of impostor syndrome, as a man who's never believed he couldn't do anything his life, even though he's completely incapable. And you get bosses, don't you, who are sort of parodies of utter incompetence. And in a sense, they're easy to understand. And I think Gordon Ramsay plays a role to a certain extent because he's actually got a very good reputation as a businessman. But part of it is that is the drab, anonymous middle, the sort of level of adequacy you get, like in a poor sandwich, in the middle, that sort of, meh sort of person. And I think sometimes you can deal with someone who's absolutely hideous or brilliant.
Russell:It's the one that, well, are just quite poor, but you can't really put your finger on why. Or they're a bit variable, they're a bit up and a bit down, but they're just anodyne. And I think that's especially in large organisations, you find that sort of know, the one that won't make a career limiting decision. We've arrived, therefore, all I'm going to do is stick around now, and I'm not going to do anything or say anything, because actually, I've arrived. And arriving was enough. I mean, years ago, we used to call it the Peter principle, didn't we? Which is quite a nice idea. And I think it's interesting that you're equating performance with wellbeing, because I think that's quite a popular thing at the moment. But why those two things? Why performance and wellbeing? Why not other things?
Russell:I mean, those are the big things that folks think about, right? Is how do we actually make money? And, like, there's the business folks, right? How do we make money get, like, what Gallup does, where they've mapped employee engagement with actual business results. And then the other side is what I think is important because I suffered through it. And this is why I talk about bad bosses, is bad bosses are killing people. The ways companies manage people is the fifth leading cause of death in the United States. 120,000 deaths per year.
Rob:Can I put a contrary view out there so we can discuss this, perhaps? Because I think a lot of people talk about this. I would contend for a second that the reason we have bad bosses is because we focus on engagement. So, engagement is the extra effort you put in, which is unpaid, towards the achievements of company objectives. And I think companies like Gallup have actually had an agenda that says, do you know what? Let's exploit the workforce. Let's actually figure out that the measure of true leadership is getting people to do something for nothing. And this is where the health and well-being problem comes in, doesn't it?
Rob:Because every now and then, even in America, people have woken up and gone, hang on a minute, why am I working 130 hours a week and I'm being paid for 40 and not necessarily that well, and I might lose my job. And actually, who am I doing it for? I'm not doing it for myself. And I often wonder whether we've got into this factious eye notion of engagement as being a good thing. And I actually think over engagement is as bad as under engagement, but actually under engagement is actually doing the job you're paid to do. Good leadership is about people perhaps doing the job they're meant to do, not doing three jobs they're not meant to do, if you see what I mean.
Russell:I absolutely do. Right? And here's the thing. Right? So, actually, Gallup, I totally agree. They've just pushed engagement, right? But if you look at their 2022 State of the workforce report, which actually comes out, it came out in April, but it talks about what type of manager builds engagement. And it's like a manager who cares about their employees, a manager who focuses on developing and coaching versus the command control style. A manager who focuses on the employee strengths. And not like, oh, well, you're not good at this. Let's work on that. It's like a lot of really good elements of what I would call good leadership. And I think what it is when folks are disengaged, you don't get meaning from work, you don't get purpose. You just feel met. And that's what you mentioned about those middle managers.
Rob:The other side of it is really where I want to. This is why I'm so huge advocate about mindset is I had a call earlier this morning, right. And were talking to a group of lawyers that were talking about, well, you know, we've set our targets. They're out of France, so they've set their targets of, like, their employees work 37 and a half hours a week, and we're like, okay, great. And she's like, well, the managers, we've all sort of set this. There's no expectation that folks go above and beyond. And then she's like, well, folks are, they're conditioned by other law firms or like this other stuff and they're working more like they're working 50, 60, 70 hours a week, but we're not expecting that. And that's the mindset piece. And so, it's about what does work mean about you?
Rob:And so for me, when I was doing the deeper work, I uncovered that work meant, well, not actually work, but success and achievement meant I could be accepted. And so by, in sports, it started off like, when you perform well, score lots of goals, play well, your coaches accept your team accepts you, they're giving you this feedback. It's great. School was the same thing. When you get A's, when you go to good college, when you're graduating again, it's this. And then the workplace, it became like, as I saved companies money, as I hit these goals again, it's acceptance. And often it's doing this work, which means I don't actually need that from work. I can give that to myself.
Russell:And that's right, because actually what you're describing there is social conformance and it's a technique you use to create engagement, isn't it? So, what you do, I mean, if you look at nudge, the whole philosophy behind nudge is creating a situation where we copy other people and we pick up the perceived culture. And what you're describing is with coaching people, we're talking about strengths, we're talking about heart and purpose so we can still exploit them and get greater engagement. And I think engagement is the issue. And I think it's interesting you talk about your 37 and a half hours a week. And actually, one of the reasons that people work is I love that point that you make. I think you meet a lot of people, and often men, but often men who say things like, my name is X, I'm an accountant.
Russell:It's the second thing. It is as deeply grained in their identity as anything else because we are bred to work and there are people who are bred to sit over those people and exploit those people in the way that they work. And I think it is very interesting because we're a bit more maybe class organized in the UK than some of the Americans, maybe. I don't know so much about Canada, but you see the class thing being quite fascinating and reinforcing that perspective. And you have a group of people who are born to rule and you have a group of people who are born to sweat. And you're right. So, we find meaning from those sort of preconceived or deeply ingrained cultural processes that we have. And it's interesting. It's the setting yourself free, it's the maverick.
Russell:It's that daring to have an individual thought, which is the challenge, which is why a lot of people set up businesses, of course, and hence the shame at the moment of entrepreneurship being seen as a game by people who don't understand what it's about. So they end up crashing and burning or building very average organizations or being toxic bosses themselves because they haven't learned the lesson that you sort of learned, really.
Russell:And that's all of what you're talking about. And it's like all of mindset and self awareness, right? Like when, you know, Boris Johnson doesn't have impostor syndrome because he just like, well, one is he has no self awareness because he doesn't know what his strengths or weaknesses or what he can actually do, right? The other side is likely he has very high impostor syndrome, and that's what drove him to the top. And so ultimately, this is what a lot of us are doing. And the folks that rise to the top of these things have very traumatic childhood experiences. Traumatic. I don't mean necessarily like what we.
Russell:Think of trauma in the media with a small T, they went to war or some crazy stuff like that. But it's like if his dad was like, when he was a kid, was like, hey, you're nothing. If you're not bullying kids on the playground or if you don't get an A in class, you're the worst person ever, right? Then we can learn these things. And it's like, oh, I believe I'm not good enough. I believe I'm not accepted; I believe I'm not lovable unless I achieve.
Russell:And that's fine. And it describes a certain percentage of the population, but there's a huge degree of populate people who are brought up to be entitled. And so, they come at that from a very positive place, which is, I have a strong sense of purpose. I, entitled, have the Skills, I've had the opportunities, I've got the network, I know where I'm going, I know who I am, and I'm very comfortable with think, because actually you're driven from this negative side. It's like I always used to talk about when we brought, because I was part of the team that brought EI into the UK many years ago, and we used to talk about with coaches that they used to say the most important thing is self-awareness.
Russell:And I used to say, no, it's actually self management, because you can be as aware as you like, but if you don't make the changes, if you don't actually activate the awareness, so it's less interesting. You have people who get results because they have quite low self awareness, but they maximize or massively exploit the awareness that they do have. And I'm sure you have met people with huge self awareness. I love this way that if you put a hand up, the Zoom camera puts the hand up. Sorry about that, getting distracted. But you can have huge self awareness and be awful because, of course, you can't actualize, you can't actually operate. And for me, it's always been that blend between those two things, which I think is really interesting.
Rob:Totally. And so just for folks out there, right? So, Dr. Tasha Yurk did a study on self-awareness. 95% of people think they're self-aware. Only twelve to 15% actually are, right? So, we all think we're all listening, going, yeah, I don't know. I am self-aware. And there's actually two buckets of self-awareness that are not correlated with each other. One is the external, which is what you're mentioning, right? Which is like, I understand how folks are seeing me and how I can impact their experience with me, right? The other is internal self-awareness, which most folks probably don't have much, but that's the, like, I understand my values, my strengths, my vision, my mindset. Like, all these things internally. Obviously, who you are always develops, but I have a very sort of clear picture of who I am.
Rob:And this is the part, right? Is like, what you're talking about is folks that are very ranging on sociopath, right, where it's like I'm manipulating and controlling folks to do what I want, but I'm not actually, like, you know, like, I'm not actually feeling or I'm shutting everything out.
Russell:Yeah, but you can also be, I mean, I've met hugely internally self-aware people, a massive, properly robust internal locus of control. But that's no use unless you can operate in the external environment.
Rob:Totally.
Russell:Because actually being perfect but not able to leave home used to amuse me. I remember talking to a coach who was telling me that they'd done a lot of self-improvement work, and they'd manifested, and they'd done their affirmations, and they'd done their journals, and they'd done this. And I said, how many clients have you got? He said, no, I'm about to go out of business. And I had manifested it and I'd put the intention into the world, but sadly, something's gone wrong. And I think the thing is, we are social creatures, and it is actually how we interact in the world that matters. And the interaction is part of the self-awareness aid, isn't it? You operate your awareness, you get a reaction, you have some sort of feedback mechanism or loop. And that drives self-awareness piece, doesn't it?
Russell:You can't do self awareness on your own just through pure theoretical. What's the word? I was going to say. I was going to say a very rude word. I'm trying to think of the right way of putting it. Thought. Let me say that. But of course, you might disagree.
Rob:No, it's true. Right. And this is why I talk about emotional intelligence. But I use the Daniel Goldman model, which says, basically, self-awareness is number one, then it's self-management, then it's empathy, then it's relational intelligence. Right. Because we can't really get to relational intelligence, which is like all the external leadership stuff, before we do our own journey, right? And this is like, it's sort of like obvious, right? Like, how would I know what you're feeling if I don't know what feelings are or what types of feelings are? Right? And that's kind of the part of.
Russell:Hit on one of my favourite subjects there, Rob, because most people don't even know what a feeling.
Russell:I mean, the Atlas of the Heart, Brene Brown's book basically said people know like three feelings, like happy, sad and. angry or something, and they're not feelings. So, it's really quite fascinating when you get into the sort of psychological. You and I can talk for ages, and I'm not going to spend ages chatting because I think we have to be a bit more productive with your time. So, it's absolutely fascinating. And you've got a really thoughtful way of dissecting this information. I love the extent to which you're using a research base as well. So that's lovely. Can you tell people how to find more about the work that you do or point them in the direction where they can make contact with you?
Rob:Absolutely. So wherever you're listening to Resilience Unravelled, you can just search leadership, launchpad project and you hit subscribe. That's my podcast. And we'll have Russell on in the future. But we have a lot of folks on that are everything from Olympic gold medallists to entrepreneurs, C suite folks, all that stuff. And then if you're looking for information on how to deal with a bad boss, my specialty, I have a free eBook on howtodealboss.com. You can check that out, and then we'll give you a free $50 off the program as well. So, if you use the code RESILIENCE, all capital letters, you'll get $50 off the program. And my contact info is all there as well. So, we do offer group leadership programs, one-one coaching, all that stuff too.
Russell:Brilliant. And let me just say that again. It says, howtodialboss.com.
Rob:Yes, sir.
Russell:Yeah, no, that's absolutely fine. Just making sure it's there. And it's an interesting site, lots of fascinating information. So, I do encourage you to get online and you'll see a picture of Rob in a very interesting room with these, waving his hands around so you know he's good when he's got hand waving going on his picture. That's always great. And if you do talk to him, ask him about his Japanese mask. It's absolutely fascinating. I think that's your next leadership book, the Masks of Leadership.
Rob:It's going to be part of what we talk about. So, I'm a huge advocate for internal family systems, which is breaks the world in, well, breaks the internal world into parts, which you can really just say are masks. So, when the TED talk comes out, folks listen to it. It does talk a lot about masks, but we'll definitely get into it in a book, hopefully 2024.
Russell:Very good. And Masks is great because, of course, it's a brilliant word in the sense that you can spell it in different ways. Got synonyms. It's really fascinating. I was writing my own book and I actually played with the concept of leadership. Masks wanted, I wanted something slightly different, so I ended with a different concept. But Rob, it's been absolute joy to do with you, to talk to you today. And thank you so much for joining us. And when you said you were from Canada, I knew were going to be brilliant. So that's always the gold standard of guests that has to be said.
Rob:Thank you so much.
Russell:So it's been a real joy to talk to you today. Thanks very much for spending time with us. You can get hold of Rob, as I [email protected]. And you also mentioned a site to me, Elite as well. So, feel free. And of course, Rob made that offer earlier, so why not take him up on it? Thanks so much. You take care.