Hey, and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. And this week, another resilience person. How so? That's fantastic news. With me today is Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier. Oh, for goodness sake. I was running up at your name. It was really going well. Pelletier. How is that Pelletier? I mean, marks out of ten, less than three probably on the card I would have said, wouldn't you?
Marie-Helene:That's perfect. I'm so glad to be here and to have a conversation together about a topic that is important for both of us, too.
Russell:Right. So, tell us a little bit about where in the world you are. To start off with.
Marie-Helene:Where I am? Well, I'm from Quebec, on the east coast of Canada, hence the French accent. I live on the west coast of Canada in Vancouver, British Columbia.
Russell:I know it well. Lovely part of the world, nice and rainy, just like us. I think we're at the same latitude, aren't we, in northeast England and Canada? But your winters are more spectacular than ours.
Marie-Helene:That's right. On the darker side. Darker and.
Russell:Yeah. Well, that explains the accent because it's a really interesting accent. So, the French thing. But is it Quebec or something? There's a phrase that describes the language or the accent isn't.
Marie-Helene:Yes, yes. You know what? The accent there is similar to the differences you'll notice between the England accent, the Texas accent and the Australian accent. So yes, there is a Quebec accent or Quebec accent. Accent, yes.
Russell:Because being English, obviously I put any French word and butcher it in the English language because of course, that's our specialty. Well, tell us a bit about yourself.
Marie-Helene:First of all, well, combined background and passion for equal parts of psychology. And so, I'm a registered psychologist, still have a small practice where I mostly work with professionals and leaders. But through the course of my training and my experience, I ended up blending psychology and business together. Been involved in various roles in all levels of management, from junior manager of a very on fire call centre to the C suite, and in both private and public sectors, including healthcare, insurance. And then for the past few years, my own business, which I love, where I do mostly speaking, some coaching and a small psychology practice still all targeting and working with professionals and leaders mostly, and broader groups as well.
Russell:Yeah. And your subject, of course, your specialist subject is, well, workplace mental health.
Marie-Helene
Overall, that includes a number of different areas. And I approach it slightly differently from the approach of, say, an organisational psychologist. My background is clinical and counselling psychology and business. So, I'm looking a bit more, even though I'm looking at the full system, individual, team and organisation. I have a bit more of an eye for the individual within this system.
Russell:Fascinating. And I see we both have PhDs and MBAs and such like. You've got the full set of qualifications.
Marie-Helene:I know the full set. Yeah. We're not doing more trees now. We're done.
Russell:I like the way that we're both one of a small number of people who have these qualifications. So, there you go. And a healthy dose of levity it says about you on your website. So, I'm looking forward to that. Well, let's talk resilience and tell us about your thoughts. I mean, do you want to start with your sort of definition of what resilience is and move from there?
Marie-Helene:Yeah. And interested in yours as well as we enter this conversation, because as we know, there are many. When we look at the academic literature, the one I've mostly worked with is going through adversity and coming out even stronger. So therefore, an element of growth from this. That's the one I mostly work with. How about you?
Russell:Yeah, absolutely. Same. I think there's an overwork on the idea of bouncing back and not realising that you have to sometimes weather the storm as well.
Marie-Helenel:That's right. I'm not a bouncing back type of person.
Russell:No, I'm a bouncing forward type of person. That's always been my idea. And for me, it's all just about learning. And I think the thing that's missed, I was talking to someone, a podcast guest recently, who told me he'd experienced burnout three times in a row. And I thought it's quite interesting that you would have done no learning between those different episodes. You're commenting on other people's ability to handle a resilience. And I think it's fascinating how this is a subject that's sort of become very popular, but now starting to die off a bit now as people have moved on to the next fad. I suspect they'll be back with us quite soon. Because actually, I think resilience is one of those real-life competencies, isn't it?
Marie-Helene:Agreed. And it's interesting, right? Because one hand, yes, we've heard about it, there's even been, in some ways, a resilience fatigue, if we can call it that. At the same time, striking observation of how the burnout rates are higher than ever and increasing. So, sure, we're having a lot of information it has not translated yet in implementations and in changes in how we experience all of the demands we're facing and our risks for burnout, so we still need to talk about it.
Russell:Bottom line, why do you think that's the case?
Marie-Helene:I think that, well, we've talked about it more, in part because of the pandemic. That explains why have we talked about it more? Why are we not implementing it in ways that create changes? And that's a bit of what I've seen in my work and what I've brought in the book I've decided to write is that we tend to, and we've seen this. You've seen this in your inbox. I've seen it. I receive emails sometimes from various very well-known outfits that will say, oh, here are the 20 things you need to be resilient, and here is an article for each of those 20 things for you to read. I'm not reading these 20 things. I don't have time for this.
Marie-Helene:And part of what therefore, I think happens is people, yes, have more information, have access to more information, and it's, number one, overwhelming, and number two, not customized to their context. So, cookie cutter is not going to work, and therefore they do nothing. Or I find the other situation that happens is a lot of people are especially really resourceful and really good professionals and leaders. They see themselves as inherently resilient and therefore not something they need to do something about it, or they should have to do something about. They are. So therefore, that's, I think, something else gets in the way, they don't customize it, and therefore it doesn't work, or they think they don't need it, period. And therefore, nothing happens. And there we go, down the burnout drive.
Russell:And of course, people have forgotten that the point of burnout is first propagated in the 70s by our wonderful German friend who started this whole Modoff, is that burnout is an organisational issue. The fact that people are burning out is because of organisational policy and process, not because of a lack of resilience. And yet the problem is that organisations bring in people like you and I to build people's resilience and throw them back into an organisation that's poor, inefficient, stressful to work in, and it doesn't have the conditions to actually harm people's potential at all. So, it's always about polishing the fish and never actually cleaning the pool.
Marie-Helene:I like it. Very English of you.
Russell:An English one, is it?
Russell:But I agree. And the other image that sometimes people have used on this side of the pond is the notion of in coal mines, how they used to send a canary down to figure out if it's healthy. Enough for miners to go down. And they say, if you're looking to just increase the resilience of the individual, it's as if you're trying to make the bird here just tougher to go and tolerate toxicity and come back up. And usually what I say to this one is I both actually like and don't like this analogy. What I like about it is that it is such a great way for people not directly in the field to realize the interplay between the individual and the context. So, I like that part of the image.
Russell:But what I don't like is that we are not birds, and therefore, there's actually way more agency that we have here. And that's a bit of the message. And I think the opportunity we have as individuals, even if burnout is in the relationship with our workplace and at times caused entirely by a problem in the workplace or many, the reality is that even if, and often it's a combination, obviously, right. It tends to be a complex equation. But even if, say, magically, one could assess that the entire problem of a given person's situation is in the workplace, it's not like the individual can just stay here and say, well, oh, yeah, it's entirely the fault of the workplace. So, I'm going to wait here until this changes, because while this is happening, we are going down.
Russell:And so part of what I'm saying here is, no, we absolutely have to consider this a systems situation in which at times, the entire problem is in the workplace. And we still need to bring our resilience individually as high as possible, because we will have to manage this, decide, can we influence this? Can we change aspects of this situation? And if we cannot, too big will take too long, whatever. We'll need to make decisions. And to do that, we'll need the highest possible level.
Russell:Well, and this is where we come to the core of the issue. People buzz on about all these different ideas and methods and such like, your 20 points is brilliant, but fundamentally, organisations don't treat individuals like adults, and people often don't operate as adults. And so, there's a sort of huge infantilising sort of culture that goes on. We actually talk to people, and we're terrified about hurting their feelings. We don't build their ability to have agency. And I often say that people today treat their kids like adults and their peers like children. And I've seen so many, I'm sure you have, as coaches talking to people and just saying, well, I can't say that to them, but my hurt their feelings. It's like, hang on a minute. This is an adult. They have choices over their reaction.
Russell:They have choices over the way they respond. And you're right. People come to work, two or three people in the same organisation. Why is that? One person thrives, one person falls apart, and the middle person does. Okay, it's sometimes not the organisation. Sometimes it is the way you make choices about what's going on around you. And I think sometimes this is, and I know some people say, oh, it sounds a bit like tough love, and it's not meant to be, but it's just meant to be. Actually, let's give people their agency backs. Let's say what needs to be said, and then let's let them say what they need to say, and then just operate in a system where we can have these professional conversations that need to be had.
Marie-Helene:Yes, agreed. Very much agree. We need to honour everyone's agency. So, recognise this. I do think part of that discomfort, what I've heard at times, that goes with that discomfort of saying something and worry that it may not be well received. And that kind of thing sometimes comes in the transition, I'll call it between being very uninformed about mental health in general, including mental health in the workplace, and then growing our literacy, our education. Because a lot of people have not talked about how any of this works, even though, yes, we're way better than were on mental health in general and mental health in the workplace, we're not fully there everywhere already. The newer generation coming in the workplace, absolutely. They'll tell you exactly what is as is, and that's much easier in terms of transparency and good communication.
Russell:But not everyone is there at this point. And I think that contributes a bit to the discomfort. But the direction, I think the successful direction is exactly as you stated, along the lines of honouring everyone's agency, mine, yours, everybody here, clear communication. I always value transparency for anything, really, definitively including there. Let's just be straightforward. And I think there is a healthy dose of also just healthy boundaries. Okay, so, yes, we are talking more about a number of these things, and this is still a workplace. Sometimes people, again, they become uncertain about, well, where is that line? Boundary, openness and empathy. And one of the terms that one of the researchers has written about is boundaried generosity, which I liked because for many, especially in professions that are very much turned towards others.
Russell:And I would say nowadays, after a pandemic, most of us are to some degree more, but it used to be even more present for people in education and healthcare, where you need to have a level of boundary to be able to support well and still have generosity. And so, for a lot of people, if I use that combination of words, it seemed to help them find a healthy place.
Russell:The original idea is I forget the guy's name now. But that's absolutely right, because the leaking between who you are and who I am is the extent to which we're then unable to give care, because actually we can't care for ourselves. And then we become incapable of caring for other people. And this is really important because your stuff is your stuff, and my stuff is my stuff, and it's not my business to be commenting your stuff in a certain sort of way. And I think sometimes it's quite fascinating. There's a book just to jump to this situation that typifies for me many of these issues. And it's called radical candour, which is a big American book.
Russell:It's neither radical, nor does it help people have candour, because it just beats around the subject and complicates the subject of what you need to say to people in order to get things done, which is a very simple thing to do. And if you can write a book that's so long on such a simple subject, you know, it's got. And actually, some of the advice is really quite peculiar. But why don't we just tell people what they need to hear? Because that's what business is about. Because it is only business. It's only a way of going to work, making money. And for some people, it's the pursuit of a higher goal. And we know that engagement is just a way of sweating the workforce to work harder than the amount of money they need to generate, and the deal needs to reset.
Russell:There used to be a great phrase you'll be familiar with the psychological contract from the 1970s and 80s. There's a great idea that actually we have to understand what is needed and what's required and what's paid for and what's supplied. And I think we've lost sight of that in the workforce. I think we've lost sight of that in cultures. So, we've taken people's agency and said, well, actually, you need to do everything we tell you and you have no agency. And then people have accepted that and then been surprised. So, we've brought a generation of leaders up on this idea, and it comes from some of the issues from the clinical psychology brigade and very much from the sort of person centered counselling brigade.
Russell:And I always find it fascinating that mental health problems are greater and greater and yet we have more and more counsellors doing exactly the same stuff. And what a surprise. It's as if we're training more and more counsellors in really old-fashioned techniques and being surprised that the change things aren't making a change. And I think what's interesting about your work is that we can make such a change in the workplace because affecting people's mental health at work is a key to helping them in mental health and life.
Marie-Helene:Yes, exactly. And that is one of the key aspects of taking back or increasing even further our agency as it relates to our own mental health. That you and I work a bit more as it relates to the workplace, obviously. But what you're saying, and I'm also saying, is when each of us individually are looking at our context and our possible next actions, we actually do need to consider equally everything. So, it does mean including personal as well. It's as if, again, at times, professionals and leaders have been so used to identifying with their work. That's where they derive most of their value and all this. It's as if most of their life is happening here.
Marie-Helene:They value their personal life, of course, but in many ways, what comes first is the work side of things, as if the rest is very much secondary and of course will be dealt with very easily and is very easy to manage, as opposed to, say, the work. Yet at times, as we all know, obviously, it can be much larger, much more demanding and at sometimes part of what contributes to finding themselves completely exhausted here, disregarding.
Russell:And sometimes work is exhausting because it's mentally challenging, it's intellectually thrilling, it's emotionally exciting. And at the end of the day, you go home, and you are exhausted because you've had sort of a clean, emotionally unpolluted day. And sometimes you go home and you're exhausted because your boss is an idiot, because actually your customers have been shouting at you all day and all those sorts of other reasons. But anyone can find themselves in the same situation. It's down to the individual to understand the toolkits, to actually help them recover and rejuvenate, and then for the organisation to say, well, actually, how do we shift and change our processes to make this easier? Because for me, it's as easy to create a positive workplace as it is to create a difficult workplace.
Russell:And so when you find yourself having a difficult workplace and a toxic culture, it's the same amount of work. To create a positive one, you get better results, so why wouldn't you? It's sort of obvious to us, standing on the outside. But of course, in the middle of it, you've got a vested interest in keeping things at the status quo, haven't you? And that's part of resilience, isn't it? Not learning, not challenging yourself. I work with an organization at the moment, really fascinating, very, quite small. And they've got a small squad of external advisors because they're exports people. So, like any sports person, they've come into business, and they say, well, as a sports person, we have coaches, so we should as well, and extremely open to challenge to different ideas.
Russell:They don't always like it, they don't always use it, but the point is they've got sort of learning driven into the core of the organization. And I don't know what you think, but I don't see a lot of learning in some organizations. You actually wonder how some organizations can keep going.
Marie-Helene:I know. I think many variables influence this sometimes. Some organizations, for example, some of the people I work with are in organisations that are very traditional in how they've approached leadership. And from a pure outcome perspective here, the numbers, the very transaction focused KPIs here, they're actually very successful. Yeah, numbers are good. Absolutely. The numbers would be even better if they did learn and grow and add even a broader set of skills if they were more agile in their learning. But this is how it is. And sometimes part of this shift is to broaden their perspective on how these different approaches that would be healthier for everyone would not only be healthier for everyone, but they would also improve outcome, as you and I know. And sometimes that's part of it. Right.
Russell:But that's a fascinating observation there. And I love what you're saying. And I think actually the challenge here with organisations is to say it's not always about having more, it's about having the same, but the hell of a lot less effort. So, you could have the same. And I think that's the idea of emotional profit, isn't it? So, this idea that you do have wherewithal, you're achieving everything that everybody wants, but there's no effort involved. Now, yes, you can say, well, let's turn that into greater outcome, or you could just say, let's be really satisfied with what we've got, because it's actually all that's required.
Russell:Now, you might want to increase ambition and purpose and all that sort of stuff, but generally with organizations, as they grow and grow, they turn over more and more revenue and make less and less cash because that is harder and harder to do that. So, I think sometimes we forget that resilience is about actually it's understanding that your capacity to weather the storm doesn't mean you have to have a storm. You can recognise the fact there's a storm brewing and one of the strategies you have is to change it so there isn't a storm to have to weather in the first place. But I don't think organisations see that sort of concept as something that's sensible. It's much more about sweating the endpoint rather than sweating the input.
Marie-Helene:I know, and that's true. And the other piece too is that sometimes as the leader of, say, a team within this organization, if we took that leader out for a one-week reflection moment on their overall leadership so far, need leadership, next step, they would probably agree with you and me. But part of what happens is they don't have this, that moment of reflection. They are in here in the line of fire and rolling so fast that all that I've seen, either those that work with individual coaches to take that moment, force that moment of reflection so these will see it, or the other circumstance I've seen is when the organisation decides to change that strategy, change the KPIs, to add people based KPIs, for example, which doesn't make it much easier because they still have all the other ones.
Marie-Helene:And now it feels like an added demand. However, it forces it on the radar and then we see the change.
Russell:Do you know something? You and I could chat for hours, and we mustn't because I need to be respectful of your time. So, I know you've written a new book, which is. Well, why don't you tell me about it? It sounds very interesting, very fascinating. Who's it written for? First of all, it's called the resilience plan, a strategic approach to optimising your work performance and mental health. Is it written for leadership? Leaders, managers, or just people?
Marie-Helene:Yeah, it is. Well, one of the things I learned writing a book. This is my first and probably only book. I've given it all I got. So therefore, one of the things is to try to write it for a specific audience and the audience I mostly work with. So, it's fairly easy. In my coaching, speaking and psychology practice are professionals and leaders of all levels. Different points. But you know what? As I shared the book in the various steps of the process with broader audiences, advanced readers and all this, a lot of people commented on how, oh, this applies equally well to the person I'm co-parenting with right now, who's at home for a year taking care of our child and is dealing with all kinds of demands and needs that plan for their own resilience. So, it goes broader.
Marie-Helene:But it was written for professionals and leaders who accomplish incredible things and needed an edge. And what they find themselves is similar to what you and I were talking about. They find themselves seeing these lists of 20 articles to read and the general guidelines, so they just let it go. But then they need to realize that you can't wing yourself care or just will it to be there. You need a plan.
Russell:They're choices, aren't they? So, I know this is coming out early next year. So, people want to find out more about your work and get themselves all excited. How do they find out more about you and the book?
Marie-Helene:Yeah, and it is on pre-order now. Anywhere. You can pre-order it at your favourite bookstore or online, thereesilliansplan.com. You'll find everything the book, me, or LinkedIn. You could find me there as well, but otherwise, theresilienceplan.com.
Russell:Fantastic. And you've got some extraordinary references from some fascinating people. So, I've pre-ordered my own copy. So, looking forward to it. Thank you so absolutely. I like to learn from everybody in different perspectives. And what you said is I've been absolutely fascinating. All I can do is thank you so much for spending time with us today. And I encourage you to rush out and pre-order The Resilience Plan. And we'll put the links in, the show notes and all sorts of things, but I can't wait.
Marie-Helene:That's wonderful, Russell, it's been a pleasure for me as well, and such lots of things in common in our work. Really enjoyed our conversation.
Russell:It's been a joy to talk. Thank you so much for spending time with us.
Marie-Helene:Thank you.
Russell:You take care.