Hey. And welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. And today to talk about resilience and all sorts of other interesting and associated subjects is Don Cummins, who's joining me today. First of all, well as its evening here, Don, so good evening to you.
Don:And good evening to you as well, Russell. Glad to be here.
Russell:Where in the world are you?
Don:I’m in Durango, Colorado.
Russell:Oh, okay. So, are you snowy yet or is it still nice?
Don:It's chilly, but not snowy. And the mountains that surround the area, they have had snow on and off. I expect in the next couple of weeks it's going to be there to stay.
Russell:Wow. Do you get cut off? Cut off in terms of not being able to travel anywhere?
Don:Yes, everything stays pretty snowed-in around here. My driveway does not get clear - I have a long driveway. We have a homestead, and we raise goats and chickens, and so I have a purchase to make. We just moved a couple of years ago, so I need to get a blade for my truck and then we'll be perfect.
Russell:Very different world over there. Well, tell us a bit about yourself, Don. What is it that you do? What do you get up to?
Don:Well, I coach other people in recovery and just in life in general, to overcome obstacles, to increase their resilience and to gain insight as to their purpose and meaning and things like that. I wasn't always doing that. My past is a pretty rocky one and includes a lot of trauma, a lot of scrapes with the law when I was very young and ultimately landed me serving a 20-year prison sentence for bank robbery. And addiction and subsequently recovery is a big part of my story. And learning to rebuild my life after being at the absolute bottom.
Russell:Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm guessing if you got 20 years for bank robbery, you weren't the best.
Don:No, I was not the best. And it was not a Hollywood kind of bank robbery situation. It was more out of desperation rather than just being a maverick, which is usually the case. No, it didn't turn out well for me.
Russell:And that's often the thing, isn't it? People hit rock bottom. They sometimes take extreme actions, don't they? And then that's the problem, isn't it? Because whatever it is that you decide to do is not planned, it's not considered. It is easier, especially if it's criminal, to be caught. Was that the situation with you?
Don:That's exactly the situation. Desperation and not caring about the consequences and just being concerned with an immediate relief of some sort of the craving for drugs. It's just a total focus on getting some relief in the moment, which is not long term, for sure.
Russell:Yeah. There are other people in the world who've gone through what you've done, so if you don't mind unpacking it a bit. What led to the downfall? What led to the cravings, to the drugs and all those sorts of things?
Don:Well, what led to my addiction? I would say in hindsight, it's complex and unpacking all of it in detail is not that simplistic, but generally I had suffered a lot of trauma when I was young. I felt uncomfortable in my own skin, and I felt like I was different from everybody else. And because of that, I wanted a way to connect, and I wanted a way to feel good. The idea of doing drugs and hanging out with the kids that seemed a little bit rebellious for some reason, for me was very attractive. And so, with my particular makeup when I started using, within a couple of years, my life was a complete train wreck, and I was 13, and my parents had me committed to an inpatient drug program, and it didn't work. Things got worse for me.
Don:I got involved in the criminal justice system first as a runaway. I would steal a bicycle to get home, and then it became a car, and things escalated, and I wound up doing a couple of years in adult prison at the age of 16. And after that, my life was a cycle of trying to stay clean and trying to stay employable and lasting a couple of weeks until I just couldn't take it and deal with the emotions and the struggle of learning how to live in a free world. This would lead me back to drugs, some really horrible decisions, and then in desperation, to do something really stupid that just destroyed my life.
Russell:Yeah. It's interesting hearing this week or the week before about Matthew Perry dying and his famous conversation with Christopher Hitchens about the fact that taking a drink or taking drugs if you're addicted is just a choice. But people don't understand that. It's just not a choice. Actually. Your body's craving a chemical substance. It's an addiction. It is something much more troublesome, problematic, and willpower on its own is not something you need to solve drugs. It needs support, it needs programs, it needs work. And I guess if you get caught, from what I understand about the American system, once you're into that sort of system, it's very hard to escape. It sort of almost drives you into the sort of rock bottomless. There seems to be very little redemption in that process.
Don:That's correct on the first point. Yeah. It's for a person who's addicted to use. It's not a choice in the sense of we normally think of that entirely free will. There's free will in theory, but in fact, the feelings of compulsion and the lack of any skills or anything in the toolbox to deal with situations really makes that meaningless, that type of freedom. I found that applies to addiction to drugs, but also to other dynamics. It could be a person returning to a relationship, that they know is harmful to them, but they need validation and it's not logical. And so, support and gaining insight and getting in touch with who you truly are I believe is foundational to making progress at dealing with those types of.
Russell:Dynamics and building the maturity and the harnessing the intellectual capability to actually make sort of conscious choices you really need to make, don't you? You've got to recognise you've reached a point of no return to be able to make that return. I mean, people talk about this you hit the nadir, the real, the bottom and then you can actually recognise the bottom to be able to change your life. And actually, when you're not at the bottom, it's quite hard to change because you know, there's further you could go almost you see very few people beating drugs in their early teens and even in their early 20s. It's just almost they haven't got the maturity to be able to deal with it. I don't know what you think about that.
Don:Yeah, I agree. In many cases it just has to play out and there's not a lot of intervention you can do until someone is ready. And that has to be realising some things intellectually and also realising some things in the heart, on the heart level, internalising some principles through experience and that's usually what it takes. But I have found in working with people that if someone is willing and they're teachable and usually that opportunity has to happen through some sort of bottom. There's got to be something that happens that makes a person willing or to be teachable, but it doesn't have to be the kind of bottom that I experienced. Everybody's got a different bottom.
Don:And so I have worked with people that don't have to go anywhere near where I went to turn their life around and experience a sense of fulfilment and connection and happiness with their life and not have to feel like they have to escape all the time.
Russell:And a lot of people call that sort of turning a corner rather than hitting rock bottom, don't they? And it's how you do that, isn't it? I guess if you obviously committing robberies and you got yourself into prison, did you get clean in prison? Because some people can't do that, but some people find that the best way to get drugs is to go to prison. So how did prison work out for you?
Don:Well, in my case, I had been through so much as a youth and my parents felt a lot of guilt and the desire to help me out when I finally got out at the age of 39 after having served that huge prison sentence. And so, they set me up with a rental home that they had, and I didn't owe rent. My dad helped me out with a car, got me a laptop, the internet was something new. There was no online anything when I went in and so I had a lot of catching up to do. But the thing about it is that even though I was set up perfectly I was not anywhere near being able to handle what was to come and that is prior to that, the whole time that I served I thought that my problem was one thing.
Don:I thought it was doing cocaine and crack cocaine in particular and I thought that if I just will-powered my way through it, I thought that with just resolve and getting out and getting set up in a good situation that I would be fine, but it didn't play out that way. Despite the fact that I got a job fairly quickly and a car, I wasn't able to connect with other people. I was obsessed with the idea of how different I was from everyone else, and I felt very disconnected, alienated and the idea of getting high nagged at me and finally I did. And to make a long story short, I wound up homeless. Within a few years I wound up homeless.
Don:I was charged with another bank robbery that I committed, and I had it so bad that if I got a $20 bill or any amount of money in my hand my stomach would do flips, my knees would start to shake and I would have to use the bathroom. It was that visceral the desire to use. So, I was addicted bad, and I was homeless and begging for money and that was like sort of the bottom, almost the bottom. And then I had this insight one day while attending a recovery workshop and that had to do with being self-centred and the mental posture of seeing everything as a threat and somehow being against me.
Don:And it was really a mindset shift which I realised that I was worthy of a good life, and I was worthy of the struggle that it would take to change my life. And so, I reached out for help and that's when things began turning around.
Russell:And that's the thing, isn't it? You're dealing with the early trauma, you're not dealing with the bit in the middle and that's what people fail to recognise, that taking the drugs isn't the issue, that's the symptom isn't it? From the cause, wherever it is but people don't seem to understand that. It seems blindly obvious, but I think we're so focused on the fact that you're putting something in your mouth or you're spending money or whatever it is you're doing that we just focus on let's just solve that bit. But you'll never solve it without looking at the originating cause.
Don:Most definitely that's the symptom or the obvious is what the focus often is.
Russell:And not everybody knows the originating cause in a sense. I wouldn't say lucky because I don't mean lucky in that sense, but the fact that you had the insight at where the trauma started give you a place, whereas a lot of people just don't know that. They don't know what the trigger is to all this and so it just seems like they have an addiction, but they don't understand the root of it.
Don:That's correct, and I've run into a lot of people that have managed to stay clean or sober or whatever you want to call it with the help of the community but really haven't taken a look at those issues, those underlying issues. Life for some of these people becomes a constant focus on just making it through another day without using and that's like life is defined by that and the real freedom that I have found has come from being connected with the cause of that and not only that but with who I truly am and that's huge.
Don:Speaking of resilience that is what gave me the power and not in a once and for all event either but that was the foundational event that allowed me to start building resilience and to build a life kind of beyond anything I could have ever dreamed of for a person like me.
Russell:And what's fascinating now I guess is you look at life's challenges against that perspective and actually life's challenges because perspective is all really, isn't it? Life's challenges must seem less forbidding or threatening or unattainable because actually you've achieved so much and whilst it's an achievement that's never finished because it's a finite process for infinite process, but it must give you great heart to know that you've been able to achieve this thing. I mean there's pretty well nothing else life's going to throw at you that's quite as significant. I mean I don't want to tempt fate of saying that, but you know what I mean?
Don:Agreed. And working with others has been huge in my life and I need to be reminded of that. Going through all that and then having this moment of awakening and getting clean and starting to build a life doesn't erase all the pathways. I remember, I wound up getting a job, an entry level programming job, after a few years, after not long after, I got engaged and married and had a kid on the way. And I wound up becoming the director of software development for a banking software company that was international and quite large. And me with my background, it's pretty amazing in and of itself, but it was difficult to deal with professional people and to learn the skills that I needed to interact with people. And I would go to my mentor often and say, man, they hate me there. They're going to fire me. And he would talk me off the ledge constantly until I got in the habit of viewing myself as an equal to everyone else and as a person who had just as much right as anybody to experience goodness. And that I did have something to offer. And otherwise, why would I be the director of software development for this company? They saw it in me, and I needed to practice being able to see that in myself.
Russell:People don't understand that abuse at a very early age creates a huge issue in terms of self-awareness and self-esteem and such like, and self-acceptance, because it's understandable why. And actually, sometimes when people are telling later life that you're marvellous, doing a great job, the tendency is, why are these people lying to me? I can't trust them. Because actually, I know this is not true. And it takes a long time to be. It just shows how weak external stimulus is, doesn't it? Unless you're sort of vulnerable or crave it yourself. It shows how weak that stimulus is. It's what's inside of it that's so important and slowly coming around. I'm guessing having a good, strong relationship with your significant other really makes a difference because actually, she must have seen something in you and must have helped rebuild you in a way.
Don:Yes, most definitely. And we met in recovery. Yeah, she has her own story as well. And I'll tell you what, I didn't know how to have a relationship. I had no idea how to say, when you do this, I feel this. And therefore, all of those communication skills were non-existent. And so, when we got together and we moved in early on with only like about a year clean, I had after the honeymoon, so to speak, was over. After about three weeks, we started fighting. And she thought I was cheating on her all the time, and I wasn't. And I thought that she was batshit crazy. And I put my hand through the wall a couple of times in frustration and we got some counselling. At first, I thought, how is this going to work?
Don:We've been together for a few months and we're going to counselling already. But really that's what we needed. It gave us the skills to be able to say and relate to each other how we really felt inside. And so here we are 11-12 years later with kids and really enjoying our life. So having someone to relate to that gets me and can see the goodness in me and also knows the dark side a little bit as well, has been a great help.
Russell:In fact, that's a fascinating thing, isn't it? Like blue light trauma survivors, they always send people who've been in the military, for example, say it's very hard to actually talk to people who've had trauma who haven't been in that world because they just don't get it. So, the fact that the pair of you had experienced similar lives, at least you understood it. At least you understood what you'd gone through yourself, and you'd be able to relate it to another person. Even if that was hard to do, that was something you could do that somebody else would never be able to do.
Don:Definitely. It helps to, whatever our situation or our experience, to have someone else who shares that and that we can look to for understanding and connect.
Russell:That's brilliant. So, you were telling me earlier that you've written a book about your work, and you help and deal with people and such like in this space. So how did that come about?
Don:Well, at my job that I mentioned, I went through a period there where I felt very happy, and I was grateful that I was leading a division within this company. And I was there at a start-up, and we grew the company quite a bit. And I had, like, 40 developers working with me or under me or however you want to put that. I become a homeowner and owned a house in Tampa Bay, Florida, by the water and was doing great on many levels. But I felt a sense of longing. Nothing wrong with corporate necessarily, but I wanted more. And I struggled for a while because some of the people I talked to said, you're not grateful or you've come so far, what more do you want?
Don:But I wanted to tell my story and to help other people and to help them see what I saw. And it kind of circled around that it's different for everybody and I get that. But for me, what I saw that day that I had that awakening, I wanted to somehow figure out how to help other people see the same exact thing because it took on a life of its own. What I saw was enough to help me navigate through a lot of difficult circumstances, even though I didn't know the specifics of what was to come or what I could expect, I didn't know what a growth mindset was about. I just knew that I saw something, that I was worth it and if I could help other people do that's what I wanted to do.
Don:So I felt like I could probably do that the best through writing a book, a memoir. And that was my first book. The Prison Within. A Memoir of Breaking Free. And so, I told the story of how my life had been up to a certain point through my eyes, first person. And I wrote that, and it did well and helped a lot of people. And I began focusing full time pretty much on helping others. And the other book that will be out soon and the date keeps changing, that's called Awaken, Connect, Transform - The Universal Path to Happiness and Success. And I believe that connection is the foundation of everything meaningful. It's the reality that underlies everything we are connected. And without having it like a conscious awareness of that on some level we deprive ourselves of power and meaning and purpose.
Don:And so this path that I was on, abstracted in a way, is what I want to offer others back. And that book is out in a few months.
Russell:So if people would like to know how can they find out more about your work? How could they pre-order? Tell me how we can help you.
Don:Sure, they can go to doncummins.com and forward slash books or just navigate around in the site and it's easy to find and it'll have all the information there to either pre-order or to order that and the other book, The Prison Within.
Russell:We'll put a link in the show notes to it, but just in case anyone's sort of typing as we're talking so that's very good. And are you on all the Socials? Can people find you on those things as well?
Don:I am. I'm on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook. I have a Facebook page as well.
Russell:Very modern.
Don:Yes.
Russell:Great. Oh, well, that's absolutely fantastic, Don. Thank you so much. And it is interesting. I love what you said there that people have their own journey, and I think sometimes it's fascinating to hear other people's because a gives you hope. But also, like you've just said, there might be something, a way of thinking, a method, a technique, a tool, a strategy, an awakening, a realisation, whatever it might be. If you can say what worked for you, at least people can listen to that and think, well, actually, some of this might work for me. And it's just experimenting in a way, isn't it?
Don 23.08
When people are ready to yes, absolutely.
Russell:And I look at it, that what I put out there. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay. It doesn't have to be. It just has to reach someone at the moment when they're ready to hear it. If you have ears to hear, let you hear, and if you don't, then maybe you can hear it another way. And the whole point is that we all grow, and we have our unique ways of doing that, and that's okay.
Russell:And sometimes you can hear it, but you're not ready, as you say. But sometimes there's no harm in actually making sure you got something on the bookshelf that when you're ready to hear it, then you're not scrabbling around trying to find it again. So that's really helpful as well. Most definitely. It's been a real joy. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed that. And I think it's such a powerful subject, and I encourage people to go and buy the book, pre-order if it's not out yet. And when it is out, I'm sure it'll be on Amazon and all the usual places that people buy books. So, thanks for spending time with us today.
Don:Thank you. Thank you for having me on the show. Been a joy to be here.
Russell:You take care.
Don:Thank you, Russell.