Hey, all, and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. And I'm delighted to be chatting to Carla Fowler today. That's a good old name, that one. Carla, tell me, first of all, where in the world are you?
Carla:Well, I'm calling in from Maine, eastern coast of the United States.
Russell:Lobster land or further south?
Carla:Oh, yes, definitely in the heart of lobster land. Just straight up know Lobster Brulee. I don't know. I've seen so many lobster dishes on the menu.
Russell:I've got a friend of mine who's in Portland up there. So that's the heart of the lobster capital up there, isn't it? I think it's all made out of lobsters, Portland, isn't it?
Carla:That's about right.
Russell:Well, it's a joy to meet you today and thanks for spending time with us. And why don't you just tell us a little bit about who you are, what it is that you do.
Carla:Sure. Well, Russell, first, thanks for having me. And then just to start, a little bit about my background. So, for the past ten years, I have been the executive coach and founder of my coaching firm. It's called Thaxa. And really what I've been building and what I've been doing is really a coaching style and methodology that uses performance science to help leaders approach ambitious and uncertain goals in ways that often look for routes outside of just working harder or working longer hours, really trying to look at what is the process, what are ways we can think about performance that go beyond just heads down, more effort. That's what I've been doing for the past ten years. And prior to that, I actually got into the coaching through a little bit of a different route than many.
Carla:So I actually had my training, my postgraduate training in medicine and science. So, I got my MD and my PhD on the other coast. So, University of Washington. And really, a lot of people ask me like, wow, how do you get into performance coaching from a background in medicine and science? And one of the things for me that in some ways, I didn't really realise it until I had to start answering that question was that I have always approached things with this mindset of what is transferable and what are the capabilities you're really building in yourself, and that many of those are transferable. Like, I think of them as my jewel kit.
Carla:And so there was quite a bit about what I learned about how to think in science and also even how I learned to think and approach caring for patients as a doctor that I found really had much applicability as I started to move into having a different kind of high stakes conversations with people. They were more high stakes in the business realm versus the health realm, but we still had to face uncertainty, like I did every day I walked into the lab during my brief science career. Also, we just had to think about decision making in a new realm, not in the health realm, but really around other types of decisions. So that is just a little bit of background about how I got into coaching.
Carla:I ultimately built this practice outside of medicine proper, but it really became a home for me, and it really allows me to think about a topic, basically performance, which is a topic I think I could be fascinated by for a lifetime.
Russell:Fascinating. Okay, give me lots to go out there. So, it's interesting that people would ask you why your background is applicable to performance, which is madness, because actually it's inherently obvious. But the ability to think is sort of really important, isn't it? And I wonder whether we're trained well enough these days to know the processes of thinking, the processes of reflexive learning and such like. So, I just wonder if you've got anything to say around this subject of how we actually begin to think in a more cogent way.
Carla:That is such a great question, because, again, I think it is one of the challenges that is facing us, and I think there are a couple obvious challenges that come up. Number one of the biggest ones I encounter in my practice, I think is almost like time to think is a luxury that even before we think about how we think, the idea of it is a process, much like taking action or doing something, that thinking actually takes time. I'll just call it some. It takes some muscle, not unlike when we are, let's just say a skill like presenting. Right? You practice presenting, you get better at your public speaking or your conveying of an idea. It's a muscle, you work it, and it's something we might get better at over our career.
Carla:And I think one of the interesting things is for many people, it may be like, oh, well, I'm more action biased, or, oh, well, that person's more thinking biased. They're such a good thinker. And something I'm just reminded of all the time is like, well, these are all things that can be practiced. And of course, it's reasonable to expect that something we practice more that we could better expect, maybe what might be the results we'd get out of it. We also might just feel more confident about it. And so I just wanted to start with those two first things, because I think even just what we thinking is how do we categorise? It has a lot to do with our attitudes then about how we might go about it or whether we even make time for it.
Russell:Just building on your thought, then. So how do you practice the muscle or the skill of thinking? Because actually it's not something that we often do consciously, is it? So, we tend to think in a stereotypical way and end up with a result that we've always had. So how do we do purposeful thinking, would you say?
Carla:Well, I think people have different things that work for them. So, I'm going toss out a couple of different ideas or ways that sometimes this works. So, one of the first ones, I think is an inherent part of coaching as a process is that we are social as creatures. And so, one of the ways that can be really helpful to practice thinking can be to have a dialogue partner. And I think when I start to work with clients, one of the first things that we do in the methodology I designed was actually to help them spend a good amount of time thinking right up front. About two really important questions, I think, for clarity that then help our process. But one of those is, what do you want to have happen? There are often results we want to see, and this is true.
Carla:Often there's results we want to see from our thinking, and sometimes we judge our thinking based on whether or not the results happen. So, I really help people start practicing by basically scheduling them for a five hour session. That is how we start. And we certainly will take some breaks, but we really dig into what do they want to have happen to help them get clarity. And then the second big question is, given the kinds of things they want or the goals they are setting for themselves, we then ask ourselves the question and we ask it in a bunch of different ways. But the question is, what is really most important to help you make progress towards those things?
Carla:So not like, what's the laundry list of what everyone else is doing, not all the shoulds or the dot, the I's and cross the t's. But really, can we get to a fundamental level of what are the drivers, the big priorities that will, if you invest time and energy in those, are going to march you in the right direction? Those are two questions that I actually think for everyone are really important to spend some time thinking about. And often having a partner to dialogue with helps us stay on task. So, we often get distracted in the middle or we get derailed by things like, I want that thing, but that's just not possible. Or, well, here are all the barriers that are standing in the way of that, or, well, goodness, there are so many things that are important for getting that.
Carla:How would I even begin to start to parse those things? And often, on our first thought, our first rep through something, I often call them loops, I think we sort of thinking is often kind of a looping process versus linear up into the right to the answer. So, one thing that can be very helpful, as I said, is how do we have something that helps us sort of stick with it? Like a dog on a bone, right? Like, just keep kind of chewing away at it, sometimes writing.
Carla:Also, one of the reasons I like the idea of mind mapping something or journaling, if you prefer kind of prose or free form, is it helps us kind of keep at it and just say, I'm not committed to having answer by the end of this, but I am committed to sort of continuing to loop on it and focus on it and just practice building that endurance.
Russell:It's a fascinating concept, isn't it? Because I forget the name of the person, so I'm not very good at names. I often forget the name. Col Speltzer, something like that. One of the big decision science experts often used to say that there's a brilliant decision and there's execution. And actually, what we do is we judge the quality of the decision based on the outcome, whereas actually the two things are rarely linked. It's sort of a head scratcher, isn't it? And if you think about it, you sort of think to yourself, well, if I make a great decision and it must have a great outcome, but actually, you can make a great decision but still have a poor outcome.
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Absolutely.
Russell:And I think too often we, maybe some coaches are guilty of this. I don't know that we often say to ourselves, well, actually, let's strengthening the thinking muscle irrespective of the outcome, because actually, that practical business sort of, well, let's think this problem through, let's get a result, and then let's say, well, that was a good decision. Whereas actually, it could have been that the process of decision making, and execution is actually a different sort of thing. And it is quite fascinating. I just wonder how much, and we might be going down an interesting, beautiful intellectual cul de sac here, which is my era. So, forgive me if that's the case, but how much does thinking have to do with what you term as performance science?
Carla:I think it has a lot to do with it, and maybe I'll just take a step back and explain a little more how I think about performance science, just because of course, anything that is big and broad and multidisciplinary. It's nice to have a mental model to help it be usable and practical. And I always want to be able to frame ideas so that they're usable for people. I mean, there's a reason I did not become an academic. Ultimately, I wanted to be out and about, seeing how ideas behave with real people in their natural habitat. The way I think about performance science is, again, it is multidisciplinary. I mean, the business schools are contributing, the field of psychology is contributing, so is sort of sociology, and certainly there is physiology and those elements as well.
Carla:But really, I, in my practice, am focused a little more on that thought performance element of it. There are certainly very talented people working very hard on more, let's just say, in the athletic realms with a heavier physiology bit. But when I think about what are the categories of ideas or contributions that make up performance science, I broke it down into three big buckets. And the way I think about the buckets are, there's a bucket all about strategy or focus or, like, being selective. It's this idea of, in any pursuit, there are going to be some things that just matter more or have a bigger impact than others. And so, part of the pursuit or being successful has to do with your ability to distinguish and distil what those things that have a higher impact may be.
Carla:I think the second big bucket is really around execution. This idea of, if you've selected and have clarity about what it is you want to be focused on or working at, then the question becomes, well, there are certainly more effective and or more efficient ways to do that than others. And that has a lot to do with how our brains work, but also how human systems work. And we're often executing through a human, like through a team, not just a single player game. So that second bucket is really execution. And then I think the third bucket is really about our mindset. So, if you've selected what's most important, you've said, okay, well, there are different ways to sort of prioritise that or get that done.
Carla:And then there's this question of the murky and ambiguous, like, what compels us to do it, what compels us to keep doing it, particularly if the feedback loops aren't really clear and positive, or if we are feeling like we're lacking in some confidence, or we feel like we are in very uncertain or risky ground. There are a whole number of elements from our kind of psychological perspective that can both aid that, but also that could challenge that as well. That's really how I think about performance science and really these buckets that contribute. And so then back to your question. Okay, well, what does all this have to do with thinking?
Carla:I think that I often start, as I said, really trying to help people get clarity in that first bucket, because I find that it's not about getting it perfect or getting it 100%, but when we actually invest time thinking about that, I find that the other buckets go much more smoothly as you go about them. I also think, though, there's contributions, for example.
Carla:Let's just take the mindset bucket, for example, when we are facing uncertainty, and this is one of the big, like, something I see happening in organisations, and it's actually something that I think is one of the best things leaders can help their teams do, just as an aside, but is how do we learn to be somewhat comfortable, or let's just say less uncomfortable in the face of uncertainty, whether that is for a personal goal, whether that is for things that are happening in our organisation or a company, learning how to make a decision, as you said, and where you don't know the outcome, you have to have a process. You need to think about how to run a good process and with the knowledge that you also might run a great process, get unlucky, and it might not work out. And there we are.
Russell:Well, look, just the process, the right process at the wrong time sometimes, isn't it?
Carla:Yeah, exactly. But thinking has a lot to do and can really impact, again, how we approach that. So, for example, really being able to say with some clarity, well, here's our process. Here's what we think would be, given what we know at this moment. Here is what we know. Here is what we think is the process we will run. We'll make sure, whatever, consult with these key stakeholders, we will do some homework. There are things we can learn. Not everything needs to remain uncertain, but there are some elements of this decision that can't be researched, that can't be filled in by doing some homework. And so we can estimate what we think are worst case scenarios, best case scenarios. We can guess at likelihoods of those.
Carla:But anyways, thinking actually has a lot to do with it and then the ability to have a mindset or to really say what we want, maybe our mindset to be around this is not that we make perfect decisions or that we can always get the outcome we want, but that we want to be really consistent at running a good process. And here's what we think that looks like. And when we actually lay that out and take the time to do the thinking. Our brains are much better set up than to feel as confident as we can in that moment. Maybe even to relish the uncertainty a little bit because we know we're going to discover something.
Russell:What are the things that get in the way of the process?
Carla:Things that, oh, they get in the way of, like, for example, the decision-making process.
Russell:Yeah.
Carla:Well, number one, feeling the need to rush time. Now, sometimes there are things happening externally that may be a reason that things need to move in a timely manner. But I often think there's a lot of wisdom in that saying, kind of from the military, like, slow is smooth and smooth is fast. And so, it is worth trying to say, how do we create sufficient or even sort of abundant time to run a good process? Because we know that when we don't run a good process, it just creates more uncertainty on the back end. Because if it didn't work out, you don't know if it was actually, you got unlucky or you don't know if it was because you ran a bad process and you are then left in even more uncertainty than you were when you started.
Carla:So rushing gets in the way of the process. Another thing that gets.
Russell:And that's interesting, isn't it? Sorry to leap in, but it's actually the case. I think the military always talk about that it's better to be quick and ruthlessly executing than slow and perfectly dead. And it's that balance, isn't it? You get people who, because of their perfectionist natures, can't take a decision and actually sometimes half done is better than not done at all.
Carla:I'm so glad you brought that up. Yes. None of these things are binary. So, then the second thing I was going to say was, people get stuck doing the homework. So, it's kind of in reference to what you were saying, where they think they can predict more or less what is going to happen, and they approach the process from saying, well, we will run the most thorough process possible without regards to like, well, there are often some time windows for opportunities that we will miss it. So sometimes the big question to then ask oneself is to say, what is the speed of process? What is the time we have? What is the window that we need to hit?
Carla:And then to actually ask yourself, what is the process we can envision running during that time, like install, hit, make a decision in time for that to be relevant. And then you can ask yourself, what is our level of confidence about that process? Does it feel sufficient? Is it missing.
Russel:Very academic.
Carla:Yeah, I know, statistics. Back to the practical.
Russell:No, I totally agree with you. I think what happens in business is that we often overindulge in, and rather than saying we've got 20 minutes to make a decision, what can we fit into the 20 minutes? What we'll say is let's make a decision. And then 3 hours later we've got these diminishing returns process running on where no one's really getting anything better and we're usually stuck in a meeting and everyone's joying away and the cost of cooperation is huge. Half a decision at 10:00 would have been just better. And I think we lose that pragmatism, don't we? That idea of having that focus for me is really interesting. It's that what do we take out rather than what do we put in? And I think that's the bit that often gets lost, isn't it?
Carla:Yes. Can we distil this?
Russell:Great.
Carla:Can we simplify this? Well, I have this thing I say with clients about brutal focus, because often I like to approach solving problems first from like, is there something we can take away versus adding something? Because folks are so busy and I'm sure in your experience, when you come into an organisation, they already are doing so many initiatives or so many different things, have their brain space, have their time trying to get them to focus on something new that can be a challenge.
Russell:And that thing about, well, we can't stop anything because everything's really important. And yet the number of times as consultants you go in and just say, we'll just stop these 20 things. And people, oh, we can't stop those and say, well actually we stopped them two weeks ago and you just haven't noticed. And this has been the result. And it's this peculiar attachment we have to this sort of some cost bias of what we do. I think it's absolutely fascinating. I'm just going to need to be respectful of your time and I promise we'd be 20 minutes. We're already at 30, so forgive me, I found this conversation fascinating. Everybody will want to know what Thaxa stands for. I think it's Latin, isn't it? Or am I guessing?
Carla:My, you are the winner today.
Russell:Am I?
Carla:I think you were the first person to actually to know that someone did guess the other day.
Russell:Greek. That's good.
Carla:Well, it's related to the word for a task, and I picked it because for me, kind of throughout my life I saw the big things that I might want to achieve. I did have ambitions as a fifth grader for all sorts of things. But this idea of breaking things down, big things, into the right parts, and if you could sort out what those were and kind of link them together in the right way, that you could accomplish all sorts of things, always has stuck with me. And I think part of the process of coaching is often when you can break things down for people. They might not have the vision or see it in quite that way, but once they do, then all sorts of things change for them. And I love that process.
Russell:That's like a cognitive reengineering, because that's very much an engineering process. It's quite fascinating hear you talk about it like that. So, if people want to find out more about you, where do they look?
Carla:So my website is a great place to find me, and that [email protected] And certainly, to learn more about the coaching process, but also if people are interested in just hearing more discussions about performance science, different elements of it, I always post those on LinkedIn, and I'm at Carla Fowler there. I'm happy to connect, but send me a message so I know where you heard me, and then happy to do.
Russell:Can, and I know we've connected. So, if anyone wants to find Carla, they can find it from my profile as well, and vice versa. Brilliant. Absolutely fascinating. I've written lots of things down, which is also a good sign. And write that book, Carla, for goodness sake, there's so many people have written terrible books. I reckon yours would be brilliant.
Carla:Well, the good news is that I am in the process. I've been writing essays for some time now, and those will begin to go live as a piece of a newsletter for folks who literally, it's just the essay. So that will be coming out probably in the next half year or so. So not a book, but in some ways bite size. People don't have a moment to read a book at this time, so you can have something a little smaller. But, yeah, thank you for that, Russell.
Russell:I appreciate it. Well, look, it's been an absolute joy. And thank you so much for joining us today. That was Carla Fowler from thaxa.com. And thank you so much for being with us, Carla.
Carla:Thank you, Russell.
Russell:You take care.