Welcome to repro, fight back a podcast where we explore all things, reproductive health, rights, and justice. I'm your host, Jenny wetter , and I'll be helping you stay informed own issues like birth control, abortion sex, education, and LGBTQ issue is , and much , much more giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in. Hi repro . How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jenny, we and my pronouns are she her?
So y'all just a fair warning that I, I recorded this episode in advance, including the introduction. I recorded it on December 15th. So if anything major happens, that is why we are not talking about it in the episode or in my intro, because when you are hearing this, I should be in Wisconsin seeing my family for the first time, since the beginning of the pandemic. And I'll actually, you'd probably be getting ready to come home.
If you're listening to it , when it comes out, I think I'm flying home the next day or that day. I'm not sure one or the other. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to the holidays. I haven't seen my family since we took a trip immediately before the pandemic started. And so I have not seen my parents since then. And I'm really excited to finally be able to fly and go see them and be in the same place with them and spend time with them for Christmas.
So I'm really looking forward to having 10 days to basically step away from everything and just have some quiet family time. I'm really looking forward to it. I don't know that we have anything big planned. I'm trying to not COVID stats in Wisconsin was looking at them. Don't look great.
Luckily, I just got my booster earlier this month than my parents are both boosted, but I think my plan anyway, after this very, very stressful year and honestly stressful a couple years , right with COVID and stuff, my hope is to really just have a very quiet time home. I have lots of baking requests of things. Family has asked me to make. So I plan to do a lot of baking while I'm home and a lot of reading and hopefully not too , too much else.
I mean, obviously eating great holiday food and stuff. I'm really hoping for some downtime. And I hope you are able to have some nice quiet holidays as well, and some time to step away and focus on yourselves and some quiet. That is what I'm really looking forward to. So I guess with that, let's turn to this week's episode. I am super excited. It's a time for our annual look back at the year and with such a terrible terrible year for both trans rights and reproductive rights.
I could not think of two better people to talk to than Caitlin burns host of cancel me daddy, and also an MSNBC columnist and Jessica pelo at rewire news group and host of the boom lawyered podcast to come on and talk about all things that have happened in the last year. There's a lot and we don't get into all of it. We just kind of do like a broad overview and talk about what we are looking for in the year ahead.
And we do end on some high notes of things we are looking forward to cuz y'all , it is kind of a heavy episode cause it has been a rough year and we do also expect the next year ahead to still be, will speed ahead with attacks on abortion and transgender rights. So with that, let's go to my interview with Justin Kate. Hi Justin. Kate. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, thanks so much for having me.
Yeah. Thanks for having us one.
I'm so excited to talk to y'all because one always love talking to you, but too , you host two of my favorite podcasts right now. I mean, I always turn to boom lawyer for anything that's happening in the court space because I need help. And I always turn to Kate's cancel me daddy podcast because it's amazing. thank you . It truly
Is. Thank you. We like to have a lot of fun.
Okay . So I guess before we get started, let's do quick intros. Jess, do you wanna go first and include your pronouns? Oh sure. I'm Jess pelo . I use she her pronouns and I am a senior vice president and executive editor over at reir news group and co-host of the boom lawyer podcast with Amani candy and Kate
I'm Caitlin burns my pronouns. Are she her? And I'm currently a calmness for MSNBC. I also write for medium and I am co-host of the podcast. Cancel me daddy .
Okay . So I guess the , now we have to get to the like heavy stuff. So it's been a year so let's talk about it. What do we wanna start with? There is so much
. Oh gosh. Where do we ,
Well, maybe I'll start with the thing I was gonna ask second and like it's been a terrible year for trans rights and repro rights. Mm-hmm why is it so important that we're talking about both of them together? Kate , you go first.
So I've been doing a lot of thinking about this recently and it makes me sad that we feel the need to tie these two issues together, even though they are interconnected because the righteousness of both trans rights and abortion rights, you know, should be able to stand alone on their own, in my opinion.
And I get really frustrated when we're talking about trans rights, when we start getting into , well, if they take trans rights, they're coming for this next or oh, if they take abortion rights, they're coming for trans rights next. And it's like, we should be fighting that anyway. without the need to feel solidarity.
I'm sure not what you expected to hear from me today because I talk so much about, oh my God, these two things are like inherently linked, cuz they're both tied to bodily autonomy and some of the other basic rights. But yeah, I think at this I'm frustrated that we even feel the need to say we're all in this together when we should be understanding that from the beginning and also the two causes should be getting support on their own merits.
Yeah. I mean, I think what Kate has dialed into is exactly right there in , you know, so we can hold like so parallel truths, multiple parallel truths , uh , together in our mind at one time, the fight against bodily autonomy is large and overreaching in this country. Mm-hmm and it SWOS up people who can become pregnant. People who do not fit into traditional gender binaries and all of it.
So we have to be able to, for folks who don't think about these issues on the regular, talk about that, but to Kate's point, the fight against trans folks in this country is uniquely different than the fight against a access .
And it does us know good to not recognize that mm-hmm when there are bills and state legislatures that are designed to deny somebody's actual identity to not just deny healthcare , but you know, puberty blockers, which save lives, for example, mm-hmm , that is a different magnet . Then the fight against abortion rights and access and they are absolutely interwoven. But I do think particularly where the abortion rights movement is at this time, the nuances are important.
Yeah. I really appreciate the like point out like both abortion and trans rights are human rights, right? Mm-hmm and full stop and should have like completely, you should be able to stand up for one without the other, like separately, not mm-hmm instead of, but that is super important. And it's super important that both groups also we're talking about them together, but yeah , you need to be full thrown backing .
Like Jess was saying like this full scale attack on trans identity in the states that's happening, even if it isn't related to abortion rights, right . Because it is super important.
And I mean, the thing, you know, that folks need to understand is that it is the same forces pushing all of this garbage.
So there is absolutely a unified evangelical Catholic legal force at play here, pushing these attacks in state houses, across the country and national, you know, lobbying efforts, you know, in terms of what I would just call up Ganda you know, and we should be having this conversation too with, you know, the push against critical race theory and that whole boogieman , because it is absolutely about sort of reinforcing a cultural status quo and then wedging us against each other to try and
achieve those ends would be, you know, one of my on that .
Yeah. I think too , uh , to that point is I think that they use similar tools in both fights mm-hmm , you know, everybody I'm sure is familiar with the Texas bounty law against abortion rights. Mm-hmm what people might , might not be aware of is that in 2015, a Texas state rep percent introduced a bill there that would give out $2,000 bounties for turning in trans students down to bathrooms.
Mm-hmm so if you wanna like look at sort of the roots of where this stuff came from, and that guy actually pared a bill that was passed in Kentucky that I think ultimately got stopped, although I'd have to look that up. So, you know, we're talking about these issues at the Supreme court, you know, they just finished talking about it at the Supreme court recently, but there's roots in , in both fights , uh , in terms of the tools that are sort of common enemy is used of these sites .
OK . So I guess that brings us to this terrible terrible year. And I guess we've already started talking about some of the tax on trans , right ? So let's start there. What is some of the things that have happened this year ?
where do we start ?
I know so much ,
Well , it was basically a , a two-pronged plan that the, the anti trans side came up with. And I think the one that got the most exposure and we'll talk about why that is, is the trans athlete issue where, you know, conservatives have taken the position that trans women and girl girls playing in women's and girls sports is inherently unfair because of, you know, biology because of puberty or whatever. I've done a lot of work in this area.
And I think it's much more complicated than this simple binary that people have come up with for it. But I don't wanna get too in the weeds on like the actual argument. But , uh , the , the end story of it is that dozens of states introduced bills that would, you know, ban trans girls and women from girls and women's school sports. And I think that issue got the most attention because it's, it's purely emotional, right?
Like community like school sports are a community gathering and people do have this inherent sense of that . I can understand where somebody who's maybe not exposed too much to these issues will come at it off the street and say, oh my God, this is totally unfair because of course, boys are always better than girls at sports, which is a conversation that is, should be approached with more nuanced than I think it is .
And the other, and I think more serious threat to trans rights were these bills that would ban a trans adolescence from accessing puberty blockers or Crosstex hormones. I think that the arguments used in this were wildly distorted. You know, all of these politicians are saying, oh, they're doing surgeries on three year olds, which literally never happens. I hope any surgeon that, that is performing surgery on a trans three year old should be thrown in jail.
So I'm just putting that, like making that clear right off the bat. And I think those bills have less success because it's a harder sell , like the , every man on that front, like I think people approach it. And they're like, I dunno about this, but it's not like a , an immediate sense of unfairness, like the athlete bills . And thankfully I think only one state passed the pubity blocker band and that was Arkansas.
And even that state's conservative governor vetoed that bill of the legislature, which has a conservative, super majority over the veto . So it's been a really difficult year. I think the human right campaign calculated that there were over 200 anti L G T bills introduced to state legislatures. They all, they weren't all direct at trans people, which I think still surprises people that they're anti gay bills still being introduced here in 2021 .
Cause I think to , to most people, you know, the gay and lesbian issue has been put to bed . It very much hasn't been,
Yeah. I , uh, I think you're right. Like haven't been paying attention to that. That attack is broader than just the trans community but yeah, it has been a rough year for trans rights.
and I just wanna say personally that I'm very tired and I , I don't like about this stuff anymore . There's no enjoyment there for me , which makes it difficult when that's how you make your living .
Yeah. It's and you're always the person I go to for the writing on it. That's so sorry. Sorry to say that, but I always know you're gonna have such smart thoughtful takes on it, but I can only imagine how exhausting it is .
Yeah. You know, we'll just fight JK Rowling and the entire evangelical movement all at the same time. Yeah . We can do it.
Yeah. okay . let's turn to the other ball of tear . What happened around abortion this year? Nothing right. Cool.
Yeah. It's I'm done, right. Um , I'm gonna go make a margarita. No, truly. So I've been covering as a journalist, covering the attacks on abortion rights and access now for over 10 years. And I, I go on podcasts and do me 80 appearances, and I'm like, this is the worst year in attacks on abortion. Right . Access states passed over blah, blah, blah, blah , blah. And I am here to say, once again, this is the worst year in attacks on abortion access.
And that's not just because we've got bad bills, right? We've got the Texas abortion bounty hunter provision. We've got copycat legislatures, you know, champion at the big it to pass others in places like Arkansas and, and whatnot . Although theirs was just recently defeated, which was an interesting win, but you know what? I'm not very hopeful for the next legislative session.
What is different though, is that we are in an accelerationist cycle, unlike any that I have ever seen in over 10 years in this space. And what do I mean by that ? We have hit the place where the Republican and evangelical campaign to capture the federal judiciary has worked. They have the federal courts and they now no longer need to pretend that we're even doing anything around the law anymore. We are fully making a policy as we go.
And so let me give you an example, very specifically of what I'm talking about back in 2015 , Arkansas in North Dakota were ahead of the game on these pre viability abortion bands. They had a six week band in, in North Dakota and a 12 week band in Arkansas, all designed to, you know, launch a direct challenge to Roe.
Very much like Mississippi, very much like Texas, except we are many, many years in the past here in this timeline when state attorneys generals were defending those laws at the eighth circuit court of appeals, the arguments that those state attorney generals both made was that we no longer need the protection of Roe versus Wade. Legal of abortion in this country is no longer necessary. Why?
Because now unlike when Roe was decided all 50 states have safe Haven laws , that'll allow people to abandon a newborn from the point of delivery up to sometimes, you know, a month without the state intervening in a criminal capacity, you terminate your parental rights. And you know, you move on with life. According to conservatives, that was 2015 rollback two weeks ago, was it two weeks time has lost. Meaning for me, feels so much longer.
But to like the oral arguments in gobs versus Jackson women's health, the Mississippi 15 week ban , and what was justice Amy Coney Barretts, like she was a dog on a stake on this talking point, right? Was that the harm, the burden to people who can become pregnant no longer exists now because we have safe Haven laws. Isn't that true? Which was, was essentially what she was posing to the council .
So from 2015 to 2021 , that argument has gone mainstream that argument's probably gonna win mm-hmm . So we'll probably have this conversation this summer about what do we do now that the Supreme court has said there is need for federal constitutional protections around reproductive choice. That is the difference.
Even this week, we have the attorney general from the state of Arizona filing an emergency petition with the Supreme court to let a ban that on abortions, based on genetic anomaly, a diagnosis of genetic anomaly down syndrome, for example, take effect that lawsuit is still going. They're like in the early stages, but these people don't care. They are drunk on power. They are high on their own supply. They see a line through the conservatives on the court.
And so this isn't like, oh, what will the post row world look like? Conservatives are accelerating March for life is in a month or so in DC. And I really feel sick to my stomach thinking about the victory lap that evangelicals are gonna try and take with a Biden administration and a democratic Congress. And they know what is happening. You do not let a six week abortion band like, you know, in Texas, say on the books and then say, no, it's fine. You can challenge it. You don't actually do that.
If you're interested in the rule of law, the rule of law has changed. People need to know that.
I think one thing that really sticks out to me and all of that is like, there has been so much national focus on the shift in the Supreme court. And like Trump being able to appoint three justices mm-hmm but
Like the lower
Courts also like that landscape vastly changed under the Trump administration.
Absolutely. And I mean, you know, and hate , and I would talk about this for , you know, eons . Like you, you have people now, like Kyle Duncan on the fifth circuit court of appeals, Kyle Duncan was litigating some of the most egregious anti-trans cases early on. And now he's a federal judge who is going to be writing opinions that shape the way the courts think about these issues . Mm-hmm so when I say we're crafting policy from the bench, that's the kind of garbage I'm talking about.
And he doesn't even, and he stren objects to using like trans people's pronouns. Yeah. Like he brags about it. Yeah . He brags about it. It's yeah. That's a good way to put it and he's not any better on abortion either.
No, no. So, you know, I don't like to be the person who's like, no folks it's really bad, but I really want folks to understand that the backlash cycle that we are in, in terms of rights, a regression of rights is really bad. I mean, Kate mentioned the, you know, anti LGBTQ bills in the states. Absolutely. Marriage equality is next mm-hmm folks.
They are , there is no interest in evangelicals and conservatives in this country, recognizing anything than a restrictive understanding of traditional Christian family structures. That's the policy they're they're tracking towards.
Yeah. I mean, we saw that even with the Amicus briefs that were filed that were arguing, Hey, not only should you throw out Roe , but here's three other decisions. And one of em was a Berg AFE
who needs a Berg AFE anyway. Yeah . Like that's really what it was, you know? And I know folks are like, well , how can they do this? Who's gonna step in having a kid is really expensive. All of that is true. They think the church is gonna do it. They want the church to do it. Like this is a real drive.
So when you know, they're, they're doing these kind of policy drives and then the Supreme court is hearing a case outta Maine , for example, on school choice and whether or not taxpayer dollars should go , you know , specifically to religious institutions that about , you know , this makes me, sorry , I'm ranting. I told you, I'm sorry.
I mean, honestly, after this year, is there any, like, I , I don't know that there's any more rational option to do than rant about what's happening. And it makes me think of like back when we were talking about like, they are like gonna ban abortion and everyone being like y'all are being hysterical, like settle down and now kind of feel like we're having that same conversation being like, they're not gonna stop at abortion. Y'all and I think you're still seeing some of that.
Like, y'all are being a little hysterical about this and I can't
Help . I'm tired feel frustrated with the Democrats right now because I mean , what was it , the DNC the other day that tweeted like , um, if you don't want abortion to be banned, get out and vote and it's like, we did , you , you don't , I'm in , it's like we , and now they're , and now they're telling again , and eventually we just stop if they're not . And it's so frustrating. Cause I don't think they understand the stakes.
Like I , I don't understand how this is being seen as politics as usual inside the beltway. And that's one reason why I've turned more from reporting to, to column writing because I'm way more ranty than I used to be. But also I'm really frustrated with my colleagues here in the DC press mm-hmm because I don't feel like they get it mm-hmm or if they do they're being really cynical for their own career, SIG
You cannot out vote evangelicals in gerrymandered states. Mm-hmm like the fix has been in , in , you know, we have Mark Meadows in Congress because of gerrymandering and look where that got us. Right. Yeah . I mean, folks are unable to have the long game conversation and you know, it , it it's the same, like, I don't know how you, how anybody isn't really frustrated with the Democrats in power right now, because there are a lot of pathways that could be executed.
And it seems to be a lot of like, Hmm , this seems bad.
Yeah. And if you look too , just at the micro level , like Ohio, Wisconsin, and North Carolina have extremely gerrymandered state legislatures, another talking about out , they're pretty much gonna give the state legislature the power to overrule the presidential vote in each state. So it's like, we're not that far away from one party rule where we have no way out of it. And this isn't a clever electoral trick by the conservatives. This is, is a literal seizure of power.
And I don't think people are scared enough. And I hate being that person because that's not me. Like I like looking on the right side of things , but editors only call me for bad news . It seems .
Yeah. And it's been really disappointing to see what the administration has done. Like it was really great that they had the lawsuit, but when there was the Friday ruling around SBA, I mean, I was so disappointed in the president's statement. I mean, one you're talking about the whole scale assault of a constitutional right. A human right. There's a human rights crisis happening in Texas around abortion.
And he couldn't use the word , like how were , how is he not angry enough to actually do something , but he can't even say abortion.
Yeah . I mean , you'll get no argument from there . Okay .
So what are you all thinking about? Come for next year? This episode's gonna be coming out right before the new year. Everything's gonna be better . Right ? I mean , but oh ,
Lots of immigration searches now . I'm just kidding. I , you know, honestly, I don't know . I don't know what it's gonna take to stop this if it can be stopped. And I think I hate to say it, but I think it's already in motion in a way that we can't stop a lot of it until, you know, my kids are my age and they're very young
Yeah. I am classically always leaving everybody on the biggest downer notes. Um, we are witnessing a rollback of generations, you know, all of these attacks on civil rights happening during a pandemic. When, you know, we will feel these losses for generations and looking into the new year, I am really focused on ways to secure access, to care for people who need it, regardless of what the courts say or do.
That is really my focus because you know, it is a cliche, but it's a cliche that is true that, you know, no matter what the courts will do abortion, isn't going away. And you know, this is also a lot of uncharted waters for us in this country in terms of rolling back to re criminalizing abortion. It's, you know, we are very much now as a country, willing to prosecute people who lose pregnancies, the risks legally are way higher than they have been in the past.
And the stakes are just, you know, it's hard to overstate them is I guess what I would say there. And I don't think the answer is coming from DC. And I don't think the answer is coming from the courts. And so I am just focused on organizers and people who need access to care.
Can I make an appeal to the folks who listen, who are experience in the reproductive health fight, always trans people need your health right now. You know, obviously the Texas abortion law got deserved attention . What I think went a little bit under the radar is that the state's only , uh , youth gender clinic in the state closed recently and they no longer or prescribe puberty blockers to kids.
And it's because they were subject the facility and the, the doctors that work there, you know, the , the staff that worked there were subject to so many threats as an industry like trans people, trans health providers. There are no strangers to controversy that generally hasn't risen to , to the level of threats that abortion providers have faced for decades. And I would ask that we need to be in this together.
Everybody's going through a really difficult time, but like Transhealth providers I think are entering into a fight that we haven't faced before and have no experience with the , that , you know, abortion rights folks have more experience with. I have nothing more than just a general appeal to if you have time and mental capacity, some small gesture or act could really help go a long way, especially locally. I'm just very worried for not just next year, but, but the future in general.
Yeah. I, I always feel like there's more to do and so much I want to take on. And after this year, it's just so exhausting and I'm looking forward to taking a break and stepping away and coming back and being ready to take on all the things.
But man, after this year, it's just so hard to start thinking ahead to like all the things we need to do to protect rights and make sure that people are getting the care they need, whether that's trans affirming care or abortion care in the years ahead, it's, it's so hard to have to be fighting this fight on all sides when we're in like a friendly administration and a friendly Congress, right?
Like mm-hmm , the thought that we are having to keep fighting so hard and losing so much ground when we should. I ideally be at a moment when we are able to protect these things is even more exhausting somehow. Truly you said I'm a bit of a bummer as well, Jess . So I totally
Relate happy holidays.
It's the most wonderful time of the year folks. OK . OK . We can't end on like a major bummer. So is there anything that people are looking forward to? Is there any good news coming? And if you can't think of anything, is there anything like not work related you're looking forward to in the next year
I have something actually that just came out this , there was a huge study done by the Trevor that was just released where they surveyed. And the results were really interesting for young people under the age of 18 receiving gender affirming health hormone therapy, excuse me, was associated with nearly a 40% lower odds of depression or suicidal attempts, not just suicidal thoughts.
They found that parent support of a child's gender identity was basically the largest correlation between whether or not the person, the trans person received hormone therapy. And they obviously found racial disparities in being able to access it. But it was ground for in that it was so large , it was larger than any of the studies that are commonly cited about like assistance rates for trans youth and things like that, that you hear a lot about from certain other journalists .
And I hope that that people kinda are seeing the light on this. Uh, I , I worry that they're not, but I hope that they do so it's just a tiny bit of brightness in a other way , December .
Yeah. Well, it's always nice to have the data to support and be like, no, see, this is why this is so important. Yeah. Jess
well , um, I'm stepping outside of my comfort zone here. I've just gonna say, look, the genie is out of the bottle, as far as self-managed abortion is concerned, mm-hmm in this country and that gives me great hope. It makes me very nervous as a person with a legal background because I understand the surveillance and the risks and how that plays out and who that plays out on. Absolutely.
But there is something empowering and liberating and knowing truly that access to care can't be stopped in that way. And so I really kind of, when I am having a hard time that I dig deep into that, because I know that that's where we're gonna really need to in community spaces, be supporting each other. In the short term , we got a new puppy. So that is good news here.
We had to sadly say goodbye to our other dog who, because this year has been complete garbage out of nowhere, got cancer and had to get put down when she was very young and it was traumatic, but I did the very reasonable thing. And immediately immediately got a brand new puppy because who needs that nonsense great thing around . So , um, honestly I am very grateful for her presence right now because it forces me to get off my laptop and onto the ground and, you know, just unplug for a little.
And one thing I just hope listeners do is unplug for a little bit because rest is revolutionary and we need all of our energy for the fight ahead.
I'm gonna go with giving me hope is watching all of these abortion funds who are so loud and working so hard to make sure that people are getting access to the care they need and getting more and more attention. I think, you know, everybody in the repro movement has known about them and it's been nice to see them get more and more attention. Even if there are people with loud platforms who keep talking about, you know, wanting to reinvent the wheel. Mm .
There are abortion funds already doing that amazing work. And that's giving me a lot of hope. And then the abortion storytellers who the work of like, we testify have just been a force to absolutely be reckoned with for years. But like, especially in this last year have just gotten so loud and you've seen abortion storytellers showing up in so many places. And that has given me hope right now, too.
Yeah. And then I guess a non-work thing is when y'all hear this, I'm gonna be in Wisconsin, seeing my family for the first time, since the pandemic. So that's pretty exciting to be able to go see them. So
That is, I'm glad you get to be with family , eat a cheese curd for me. I know. Yes.
Oh ,
Don't worry . I miss them .
Cheese curds will be consumed many.
They don't , they don't do cheese curds out here in Boulder. Shocking.
I've been to like the farmer's gets in DC and they're like, we have Wisconsin cheese curves and Wisconsin nights are like, they're just like home. And then I'm always like, no, they're not thank you. But no. Yeah.
The end of the year calls for cheese. Just gonna say it. Yes.
So
I don't think I have a personal win actually started a podcast this year, which is, which feels personal. It's more know that it feels personal to me. So
but it's amazing. And I love it.
Cancel me. Daddy is Aing good time. Even as y'all are taking on really heavy, serious stuff's folks who are listening to this, do not know, cancel me, daddy, go fix that and listen to it. We have
A great holiday special that we will be out by the time this episode goes out where we unpack the war on Christmas. So ,
Oh , I'm so excited record before the Fox news Christmas tree burned down .
Oh , we that
Excited . Oh . Things to look forward to and they have amazing guests too. So definitely can't recommend them enough. Okay . I think, you know, we usually do like, what can our audience do? But I feel like we kind of hit that, but if you have anything else you wanna add, like what action should our audience be to in the next year to fight back on all of this nonsense,
Be kind to yourself
So important right now.
Yeah. I mean, so lead with kindness and talk to your friends and family, you know, it blows me away that there are, are folks close to me who still don't even totally understand or get, or see or know all of the attacks on the rights that are happening right now. And so just be that person who always reminds them when you can.
And it's nice . Cause it makes a difference because then they'll call you when they hear things. Like, I definitely have gotten calls from, like I said, I'm from Wisconsin. So like I've gotten calls from family being like, so I'm hearing these, I think this happens around se anti-trans on since that was proposed. And like, can you explain to me why this is problematic? So getting to be that person, it really does make a huge difference. OK . I think with that, we'll wrap it up.
Jess , Kate, I always love talking to you. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for having us. I'll be on a show with Kate anytime . Yeah, this is always great . Okay. Everyone. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jess and Kate. I always love talking to them. They're so smart and do such a great job covering all of these issues. They're definitely my go-to people for these topics. Respectively.
I hope everybody has a wonderful new year and yeah, if you have topics want us to cover or people, you would like us to talk to always feel free to shoot me an email at Jenny repro, fightback.com and that's Jenny with an IE, or you can always reach out to us on social media and that's at repro fightback on Facebook and Twitter and repro FB on Instagram. Otherwise have a you new year and I will see y'all next year for more information, including show notes.
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