The U.S. is on the Wrong Side of Global Abortion Trends - podcast episode cover

The U.S. is on the Wrong Side of Global Abortion Trends

Jul 11, 202355 minEp. 174
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Episode description

Abortion rates around the world have stayed the same since the 1990s—except in countries where abortion restrictions have been newly introduced. Tarah Demant, Interim National Director of Programs, Advocacy and Government Affairs at Amnesty International USA, sits down to talk with us about the countries that have recently introduced abortion restrictions, the countries that have protected abortion care for decades, and what the future of global abortion access looks like moving forward.  

 

The Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization case that overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022 was a major loss for abortion rights. Even still, in the last 50 years, there is an unmistakable trend of the liberalization of abortion laws across the world. In fact, the vast majority of countries permit abortion in at least some circumstance, and these countries continue to move toward further liberalization of abortion laws. In all, 60 countries have liberalized their abortion laws, with only four countries having rolled back their abortion laws since 1994. The countries that have rolled back abortion laws include the United States, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Poland. In each of these countries, maternal deaths rates, criminalization of people seeking healthcare, and rapidly spreading chilling effects among providers, has increased.

 

The Dobbs case has been and will continue be used as a framework for general anti-rights policy around the world. Similarly, the U.S.’ narrative lead on anti-abortion ideology has the ability to influence other countries’ narratives and political confidence to pass equally restrictive laws. Dobbs and its ideology has also coincided with an emboldening of the global anti-gender and anti-LGBTQI+ movement.

 

Links

Tarah Demant on Twitter

Amnesty International USA on Twitter 

Amnesty International USA on Facebook

Fos Feminista Fact Sheet: The Global Impact of the Dobbs Decision

 

Take Action Items

 

Follow Amnesty International on Twitter and Facebook.

 

Stay engaged and take heart. The majority of people around the world—3 out of 5—believe that abortion should be legal. Talk about abortion, how it’s normal, safe, healthcare and a human right. 

 

If you have money to give, give to an abortion fund! If donating isn’t an option, figure out a way to become involved—whether going to events, volunteering, or more!

 

Reach out to your local council members and elected officials, and make sure they know that abortion access is important to you as a constituent. You can also call your federal elected officials! The Capitol Switchboa

For more information, check out Boom! Lawyered: https://rewirenewsgroup.com/boom-lawyered/ 

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Transcript

Speaker 1

Welcome to Repro Fight Back a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health rights and justice . Hi repro. How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jenny Wetter , and my pronouns are she her. So y'all, I am coming up to you off of a long weekend. I had off the Friday before the fourth, all the way through Wednesday, and it was so delightful to just have that time to relax and unwind.

I didn't really do much. Um, my kitties really hate fireworks, so I try to be home , uh, as much as I can during that time. Uh, so we hung out around the house, the kitties , you know, hid during fires, although it seemed like they were better than in previous years. So that was good. I did a ton of reading, which again is my happy place. So it was nice and just, it was just the perfect unwind.

And now I feel, you know, ready to face all the things. I , I mean, I hope so. Uh , yeah . So it's been a nice little quiet stretch here, which is delightful. And then to make everything much more exciting, I was able to record this week's interview in person and gotta see my friend . And it was just what I needed to , you know , get through this last week , which was perfect .

And I guess with that , let's just run to my interview with Tara . It's a little long, so we'll just keep this part short. Uh, so I talked to the absolutely amazing Tara Demand with Amnesty International, and we talk about global abortion trends. And with that , let's go to my interview with Tara . Hi Tara . Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. I love being here with you.

And y'all, I'm even more excited cause I am like staring at Tara . I rl we're in person live and Oh , okay . So unfortunately we're gonna talk about like , not exciting things , although some exciting things , abortion's , always exciting mixed bag of there's some like, good news. Yes . But not all good news. Yeah, yeah , yeah. We live in interesting times. Exactly. Oh, I see.

Again, lately my new thing has been a , I've been getting so excited to talk to people about very exciting topics that I just am like , let's go. Right . But maybe would you like to introduce yourself to the audience before we just like run in? Yes . And include your pronouns. So, my name's Tara to Matt . My pronouns are she, her, hers.

I am the National Director of programs for Amnesty International, u s A. Um, but more important, I have been leading the gender work for Amnesty U s A for a number of years and lead on our abortion work. Awesome. Thank you Tara . Ok .

So before we dig deep into any particular part of this, maybe we just like, start with like a really top line of like, what are global, what does like the global abortion trend look like right now?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, so first let's talk about abortions themselves as opposed to law and policy. So every year around 73 million abortions take place worldwide. And that number has stayed roughly the same since 1990. So that's really important to think about as we look at states trying to restrict abortion laws, that ultimately abortion has stayed the same over the last, what is that? 30 , um, 40 years . Oh God .

Yeah. Getting old. Um , our pre pre podcast conversation was about eighties music. And so since the nineties, like abortion rates have stayed the same. But where you see divergence is between countries with more restrictions and fewer restrictions. Restrictions, but in the opposite way that you might think that might go.

So for example, data from 1990 to 94 and 2015 to 2019, where we're pulling data sets , the average abortion rate in countries where there's generally legal abortion declined by 43% . In contrast, in countries with severe restrictions in abortion, the average abortion rate increased by around 12% .

So you're looking, and now these are, you know, very specific years, but in general, what you see across data sets is in countries that impose restrictions, abortion rates rise. And in countries where you see a liberalization of abortion, you act laws, you actually see abortion rates fall.

And that's not because somehow there's been like a change of mind as to like whether abortion is necessary, but because you also have a much more holistic understanding of services and laws that also help make sure that there's comprehensive sexual and sexuality education, that there's , um, access to contraception and that people know how to make the best decision for themselves so that you don't have an unintended

pregnancy. Right. But again, the takeaway here is that abortion rates have stayed the same since the nineties, except for that they've risen in countries where they put abortion restrictions in place. Yeah, I

Speaker 1

Think that was really helpful to explain. Cause I think that seems really counterintuitive to a lot of people. Um, so it's really, I think, important to help understand like why.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I mean, what it shows us, the , the first thing it shows us is that abortion restrictions do the opposite of what they are so called intended to do. So in theory, an abortion restriction is meant to reduce the number of abortions . I wanna be really clear that that is not actually what abortion restrictions are meant to do. Abortion restrictions are meant to impose political power over populations.

And we see the rise in abortion restrictions in spaces in which there's declining democracy. And we'll talk about that in a little bit . So, but in theory, if people who are arguing for abortions, like, we wanna cut down on abortions, abortion restrictions don't do that.

And it's not just because they come alongside , um, restrictions in comp in comprehensive sex and sexuality education or restrictions and access to birth control. But because they are fundamentally about making it harder for people to control their reproductive cycles.

So even if you don't have , um, even if you have a , a , a space where they restrict abortion, but you know, they don't restrict comprehensive sex and sexuality education, you're still seeing rise a rise in abortion rates because it is about restricting choices. And that puts a cooling and a freezing on, on people's ability to manage that, the full cycle of their sex and sexuality choices.

So again, like abortion bans don't ban, they don't stop abortion. And they actually then come with that increase whether or not there's like a specific , um, alongside law that also tries to freeze comprehen , uh, comprehension healthcare or something. Now, there often is, right, because again, abortion bans and restrictions aren't about restricting abortion. They're about controlling people's bodies and controlling populations.

And that often comes with a reduction in sex and sexuality education, a reduction in access to holistic healthcare . Because at the end of the day, an abortion doesn't live in a bubble. An abortion is a part of your sex and reproductive sexual and reproductive healthcare.

And so when you stop abortions, you're also stopping all the, or when you're trying to stop abortions, rather, you're not stopping abortions, but you are stopping all those other healthcares that come alongside that. Um, so, so that's where abortion is like globally. The , it just hasn't changed in the last, what we decided 34 years , 34 years, we haven't seen a change in abortion rates.

Um, what we have seen is a change in the, in the safety of abortion for people in countries that move to further restrict, which are the vast minority, that the vast minority of countries have moved to restrict. But that means that the vast majority of unsafe abortion happens in those countries with restrictive laws.

Speaker 1

Oh man, I keep talking about that being 30 some years ago that just like I know right to the heart, Tara . Right to the heart.

Speaker 2

Right to the heart , yeah. The 30 , 30 years ago, which you vividly remember ,

Speaker 1

I was , oh man , okay . We're not gonna talk about that anyway ,

Speaker 2

Getting older is great . It's great .

Speaker 1

Um, okay . So let's, let's break it down a little bit and talk about where have we seen progress? Like, because there is a lot of good news to tell even though things are really bleak in the US right now. So let's, let's revel in the, like, good news side.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the great news is that over the last 50 years, what we've seen is an unmistakable trend towards the liberalization of abortion laws. And that's globally, we've seen that across regions. Now, some of that has been small progress, some has been giant progress, and a lot of abortion love of course, depends largely on region and countries.

But ultimately, the vast majority of countries permit abortion at least under some circumstances and are moving towards liberalization. So there's, you know, really specific examples and , and I think they're really exciting. But in general, so just talking overall stats, 60 countries have liberalized their abortion laws in the last 25 years.

Only three countries other than the United States have rolled back their abortion right , since 1994. Right? So that , that is, that is showing a global trend towards liberalization of abortion laws and, and also showing, of course, at the United States is like wildly outta step at that liberalization. Um, so there's a lot of good examples.

I think people will be really , um, they'll remember some of the most recent examples.

The example of Argentina, for example, which had a , a near total but functional total ban on abortion , um, where, gosh, three years ago now, the , the Covid timeline is , uh, yeah , tricky on my brain that that liberalized their abortion laws are cont and are continuing to liberalize abortion laws so that people have access to the healthcare that they need.

And this is in a heavily a country that heavily polled , you know, 20 years ago, fully non-supportive of abortion, right? A country that's heavily Catholic, that's heavily religious, lots of Catholic people, also religious people support abortion. Like, but that, that was not the trend in Argentina.

And what we've seen now is a movement that has been able to build power that has been able to show that actually abortion's not just a human right, it's, it's a social good and it's necessary. Another example of course is Ireland a a a again, another country deeply associated with conservative religion and Catholicism. And we saw the liberalizing on , um, uh, a vote yes on eight, right? That liberalized abortion laws.

And you had a different circumstance that, you know, people were then forced to travel to get abortions if they could afford it. And now abortion is the , those laws have liberalized in Ireland. Um, we've seen also in Mexico and Columbia in recent year or years. Um, again, the covid, is it last year? Is it two years ago?

But both a couple of states within Mexico and then nationally, Mexico has liberalized abortion laws the same in Columbia . You know, these are, these are just the most recent examples.

So what we're seeing are movements that are continuing with the trends that globally governments and people recognize that actually liberalizing abortion laws is not just good for people who can get pregnant, but is good for the health and safety of a country in general. And so, you know, those, those movements are still really, there's loads of, of work still to do.

And, and when a , an abortion law liberalize, it doesn't magically mean that you can access abortion immediately, particularly in larger spaces. But, but even in a , a smaller country like Ireland, for example, you know, one of the problems is that it's, it's really hard. There's not a , there's not a access to abortion in , in every county.

So depending on where you live, if you're rural, you're much less likely to have access than if you live in an urban space. So how do we make this right? A reality is now the sort of next phase after the abortion liberalization laws, right? But in general, that's still trending towards access. It's still trending towards rights, and rights and access of course need to go hand in hand and don't always.

Um, so, so that's the global trend, and we've learned a lot from that movement that I'll, I'll talk about maybe once we talk about other country's going the other way, but that, you know , these are movements that every country's different, every region's different. And, and every space within a country is different. Countries don't speak in one broad stroke. I mean, you can see our gigantic and, and schizophrenic country.

Um, but like we've seen movements be successful when they've helped make obvious to populations how and why abortion matters, right? As opposed to a narrative that stigmatizes abortion as happening only to the other, and in circumstances that should have been avoided, right?

So you look at a country like Argentina, where again, you know, this has been a long journey for activists there who built on the neo movement, which means not one last or not, not another one is another way to translate that, which is around violence against women and girls and helping people see the connection between abortion, the right to abortion, and the right to live free from violence as one in the same, right?

So, and that's a really, really important context.

And Ireland, the movement and there's, you know, these movements are really diverse, but helping people see how unfair and cruel it is to make someone who who needs an abortion have to travel or be forced to carry a pregnancy, particularly, you know, stories around pregnancy that were wanted, but then were un they were unviable pregnancies and someone's forced to, to carry that pregnancy.

So helping make those connections around compassion and those stories of compassion really worked in , in those spaces. Um, so I think there's a lot of lessons there , um, for us in this movement. But the overall takeaway of this like 400 year long speech here is that like the world is trending towards abortion rights and we've moved backwards, but we'll move forward again, like, we'll move forward with this movement.

Like the , the , the , the force of history is on our side here,

Speaker 1

And you can see a lot of the groundwork you talked about, but what was successful in Argentina and Ireland really being laid at this moment in the US Yeah. To really shift that conversation, to talk about, you know, why abortion is important to people's lives. Mm-hmm. to have people telling their stories, groups like we testify Yeah .

Or like dedicating their time to make sure that people are seeing the people and hearing the voices behind the people who need abortions.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I, groups like we testify are so important, and I mean, in some ways it's so discouraging to have to have people tell Yes . Their own stories. Like, it , it's like, why , why do you need someone to tell you about this experience? To trust that someone knows what's best for them on the other hand? Like that is, that is the reality of what is needed.

And so groups like we testify and anyone who is sharing their abortion story like that is part of the sea change, group c change of course, from , from way back like that is part of the sea change change that we need to, to see. And I think that it, you know, it's, it's hard for people. It's easy and abstract to have a really clear sense of what's right and wrong, right?

If, if the world is black and white and you're thinking in abstract, then you can be like, well , this is why I don't support abortion. But actually you, you have no sense of what reality is. And so hearing someone's story is a way that helps us as humans understand why it matters. It's discouraging to me that that's what it takes .

And so I , you know, there's , I , part of me is like, I just wish we testified didn't have to exist. Yes. And people didn't have to tell their health core stories. Um , and not because they're shameful and not because there is like, but like why would you have to tell your appendicitis story, right? That because like, and that's why we should make sure that people deserve healthcare.

Um , but that's really, really important. And I think, you know, part of that de-stigmatization is it's not just changing the narrative of is abortion right or wrong, but who abortion applies to.

And this is where I think that that work has been so important in the United States is even for folks, you know, historically, and we know we're making, making fun of being old, but like, you know, the nineties was a wild time.

And the , the things that that made sense , the narrative then, you know, they still really stigmatized abortion , like second and third wave feminism, like in general deeply stigmatized abortion and thinking about abortion, the slogans like safe, rare and legal, right? Like the why is the rare in there. Why is that? Yeah. Why, why abortion all the time? Who cares? It's a medical procedure, right?

Like those are things where I think the movement in general in the United States is still maturing, but we've seen, and it's those people who are telling their stories that have helped, you know, really challenge some less intersectional thinking around abortion and just abortion as a concept. It's not like abortion is neither a good or bad thing, it's just healthcare.

And so those, those stories are still really, really important. And I think not just for people who in general do not support the right to abortion, but even those who do, who in their support are like, well, you know, I support abortion, but, but I'd never have one.

Well, first of all , you have no idea number one, but also like you sure would cause doctors give abortions all the time for nonviable pregnancies or for , you know, there's loads of reasons that whether or not someone quote unquote would like walk in and be like, I'm ready. I I don't wanna carry this viable pregnancy. Right? Um, so, so that works really, really important to the movement.

And I think it behooves all of us, whether or not we're, we're telling the stories about our own abortions to be, to be really clear about what we're fighting for . And it's, it's not just so that someone can make the, like, terribly difficult decision around whether or not abortion is morally good or bad. It's so that actually people can just live lives with healthcare as an option like this.

Like we've been having the wrong conversation in this country, obviously, right? Around like, is abortion good or bad? Like, that's a, that's a conversation to have with whatever deities are on your shelf .

The question is whether or not people deserve healthcare , whether or not we trust people to make decisions that are best for lives , and whether or not we wanna live in a society that fundamentally sees women, girls, and people who get pregnant as expendable. And, and that's the conversation that it's really hard to be on the wrong side of that when someone's explaining to you their story .

Like when someone's like, well wait, actually, here's what happened to me and why I needed an abortion. Right? And there's been lots of work. We testified obviously so, so amazing at this, but like op-eds that came out around people saying like, never thought I'd have to tell you my abortion story, but here, here it is. Right? And that, that works really important.

Um, but it's important for all of us to make sure that, you know, I I, we've talked about this before. I , I tend to be very motivated by like white hot rage and not like a glowing sense of a beautiful unicorn future , but like , what we're fighting for is just like people to be able to live their lives and , and access healthcare and the whole range of reproductive justice.

Um, and I, and those are, I think, lessons also from movements in other countries that can be really helpful. Um, but also like that these movements can take time too. And I dunno , like many Americans, I have a very short attention span of history. And, and so it can feel like this major setback.

And it is , and it is like we need to pick ourselves up and keep moving forward to, to keep moving forward and, and to , to ultimately win back, but like to win back better, right? Yes . What we had before wasn't enough. Like ,

Speaker 1

Like we don't just want what we had, which was

Speaker 2

Not enough enough . Like it was garbage . Yeah . Plus spoiler. Roy was garbage. Roy was garbage. Everybody knows this, but it was like this floor. And, and what we need is , is the ceiling, right ? And that's always what we should have been fighting . This podcast

Speaker 1

Did not start last

Speaker 2

Year. Right? Right, right, right. So

Speaker 1

Yeah, let's talk about the couple countries that have been restricting abortion. And I think there's like a really important storyline that we can see through all of those countries, right?

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, shocking. No one in countries with extremely restrictive laws , um, the situation is horrific. And if we look at the three countries that since 1994 have rolled back their laws , um, I think they're really, really instructive. And I , I , I do think this is a question of like, what is the world that we want here?

And when you have, I I, you know, I think of this with when you have out , you know, we live in DC and, and when you have people out , you know, at the Supreme Court protest, and you have like really young people, lots of people coming from like Catholic schools and whatever, and I , I really, I really sad in a way that I'm like , what is the world you actually wanna build?

Cause I actually don't think you want this. I think you think you want this, but like, actually you don't because here's what this world would look like. And here are the three examples. Since 1998, El Salvador's constitution has enshrined into law, the idea that personhood begins at conception.

And as folks who listen to your podcast know, like that is what's in the books coming down the pipes in the United States, and multiple states are trying to do this. And that is the end goal of this movement at the con , at the , um, congressional level to move a constitutional amendment. So, okay , what what does that mean? Personhood begins at exception?

Well, first of course, it means that all abortion is prohibited under law with no exceptions. It means that over 140 women in the last 20 years have been arrested and imprisoned under these abortion laws, some of whom did not have abortions, but experienced a miscarriage.

It means that women, and, and the data here is all on, on cis women were , have been charged with aggravated homicide and have received decade long prison sentences for miscarriage or abortion. It of course, disproportionately impacts poor women, indigenous women and rural women. And my question for people who oppose abortion is like, is this the world you want? Is that what you want?

And I think, I mean, there may be someone who says yes, but I think the answer for most people is not, it would not be. Yes. Right? Another example is Nicaragua, which instituted a total abortion ban in November of 2006. And it overturned a longstanding law that had allowed abortion, but only in very rare circum circumstances.

But even this change from what was already a pretty abortion law to a full ban on abortion has, has had really clear impact. So in Nicaragua, 1300 girls between the age of 10 and 14 become pregnant through rape every year. So what's the, what's the world look like for them on the tail end of this law? It's been very hard to get data outta Nicaragua under the, the , um, the government there since 2006 .

But in the first year of this rollback in 2006 , human rights watch documented the deaths of at least 80 women who had died as an a result of the abortion ban. And Amnesty International has been documenting a rise in internal death, maternal death, pardon me.

Um, every year since doctors in Nicaragua have described a chilling effect, which they're not just on, of course, providing an abortion, which is patently illegal , but on obstetric care , they're afraid of potential criminal liability. They're refusing to treat women who are experiencing hemorrhages, even post-menopausal hemorrhages, because they worry that they're gonna be charged as accomplishes to murder.

So that's the world that we can live in with a fetal personhood constitutional amendment or law is , is a world in which women, girls and people who get pregnant are fully expendable in which doctors are terrified of providing healthcare , even postmenopausal healthcare for fear of being imprisoned. And we've seen versions of this start to creep up already in news stories in the United States.

Uh, the last example I'll give again is the last country other than the United States that has rolled back , um, abortion rights since the nineties is in Poland. And the example of Poland, you know, Poland was one of the first countries in Europe to liberalize abortion laws to allow abortion. And that was in 1932. So Poland was really at the forefront of abortion rights in Europe.

And then after the fall of communism and buoyed by the Catholic church, campaigners began to ris precipitously , um, launch a , a giant campaign and very, very intentionally chip away at abortion laws. So that now after decades, Poland has finally abolished abortion in thousand one in almost all circumstances. And again, these exceptional circumstances, they don't ma they don't exist, they don't matter.

And what this means is now Poland is putting on record pregnancies in the national Patient Information database, and they're tracking when , um, and the data in Polands is on ciswomen when women get pregnant. And it prosecutes those not only who then seek abortion, but who train assist in abortion care.

So one example that your listeners are, are likely familiar with is the case of Gia , who's a human race defender, who supported a pregnant woman who had been suffering from domestic violence to get abortion pills, to access abortion pills.

This woman's partner then , um, was searching her computer, saw this communication, and turned in both the woman and Justia and Justia has then gone through a , um, you know, a , a huge , uh, criminal case. And in March was convicted and convicted of assisting , um, this person in abortion.

Now, this is a case in which there was massive global pressure and massive global , um, attention including by multiple governments who, who are very present , um, making clear their concern around this. And, and with that, Justine was sentenced to eight months community service instead of prison. But the intention is there to show that if you help someone get the , the medical care that they deserve, you'll be punished.

You'll go to prison. The world won't watch every case like go , go to prison. And that's the world that Poland lives in now is is a world in which a woman who is in a , a situation of domestic violence who's seeking an abortion, doesn't get the care she needs in which the woman who tries to help her can go to prison like that . That's the world.

So those are the three examples alongside the United States that have rolled back abortion , um, rights in, in the last 20, 25 years since 1994, 30 years, my goodness. Math . Um, you know, that that, and, and that's the world that they live in. And to me, I think, and to your listeners, it can bogle the mind that this is the world in which anti rights people are fighting for. You know?

And I, I think we're having two different conversations, right? That there's just two totally different conversations. Like what is the world we want to build? And, and that's not the conversation that the anti rights movement is having. Like they're having a celebration around having ended row . And, and it's, you just think, what is it you think you've achieved?

Cause here's what the reality is, and we're seeing this happen in the United States, right? Like we're seeing this happen in the United States. Again , overwhelmingly what we're seeing globally is a liberalization of abortion laws. And we saw massive shock ripple through the world when Dobbs was ruled and Roe was overturned. Massive, massive shock and concern. Like , as opposed to like, oh, this sounds like a great idea .

Right ? Massive shocking concern because where the United States goes, others will follow. Um, but it's, it's a hard road to hoe on. It's on for both, both parts of , of movements, right? Both the anti movement and the rights movement. It's a lot of work, but there's a trend towards liberalization . Like the world is trending towards liberalization of abortion laws. And

Speaker 1

I think it's also important, like abortion isn't the end, right? Like they aren't stopping at abortion and like the attacks on abortion mm-hmm . and limiting people's access in those countries in the US like that is not great. We did it.

Speaker 2

No, it's a package deal, right?

Speaker 1

Yeah. Like, it's like we, there's more we, yeah . You know, if you're doing, life begins at consumption, that means certain forms of birth control are an ex they're they're gonna start attacking birth control access.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. We've already

Speaker 1

Seen , right? Yeah, yeah , yeah . We're starting to see the no fault divorce stuff coming up more and more in the us . The huge, like, okay , we can't attack abortion rights in the same way in the US right at this moment. I mean, they still definitely are going at it in states that haven't gone as far as they would like, but you've seen this huge increase in attacks on trans rights this year. So like

Speaker 2

Yeah , and they're the same thing .

Speaker 1

It's all connected, it's all the same people, and that's exactly correct . They're not done.

Speaker 2

No. And I, I think that's what's, you know, we see this globally too, as well as obviously folks will be really familiar with that in the States, is that one, this is the same people as in literally the same people are funding it.

And this doesn't mean that , like my great-aunt doesn't in her heart believe abortion some way or another, but that like, the movement is being funded and fueled and controlled by extreme minority of people who seek and wanna maintain political power. And, and I, I , you know, I mean, in some ways that's really sad, right?

You have folks who believe something in their hearts who being deeply manipulated by people who do not give two about abortion, who are interested in political power and have found a way to manipulate people to get it. And that's, that's not only on abortion, right?

Clearly we're seeing that on trans race , this is the same , it's not just the same tactics, it's the same argument that it's the government that should control your body.

That it's the government that knows what's best and not you that knows who you are or what's best, but also that like the government and some of these laws and , and there's been, you know, there've been multiple that have been re overturned in courts, but it's this constant march against trans, against trans people. And it's to make a political scapegoat.

And this is the same thing with like the, the far right claiming it's pro-life. Well, that's just a load of horses . Everybody knows that abortion bans don't do anything to protect life. They don't do anything to make safe pregnancies. If what you care about is fetal life, and let's be very clear what that fetal life, then great. Like then support socialized healthcare bans actually don't do that, right?

They actually make that more dangerous and they don't decrease abortion rights . So, you know, anytime that someone tells you they're pro-life, they're , unless they are on a , on a full encompassing, I'm pro-life because I'm here and tending out birth control and in full support, and I support full access to abortion.

Like, you know, this, we , we know that this narrative is full of, but obviously that that's been widely swallowed and that is something that is also exported globally. And this is, again, it is the same people and the same money that then exports this United States, Chet , you know, globally. And, and that's something that's I think very concerning. Post Dobbs.

There's new research that , um, Feminista came out with just this week , um, or the week of July 5th, they should say , um, uh, depending on when someone's listening to this podcast, which is on the global effects of Dobbs . So one of the things that c International and other organizations saw right away was a very clear ripple effect of the Dobbs decision.

Not just in shock in governments and activist movements, but in real fear and the emboldening of an anti rights movement where you began to, or this has been happening, right? But you saw this spike in enthusiasm and in, and frankly rhetorical and sometimes physical violence of anti rights movement who felt deeply emboldened by this, by their victory in the United States. So that we saw immediately.

And that was very, very clear. And also then taking the playbook of how this happened in the United States. And every country has a very different political system, but it's not rocket science. Start at the local level, build through the courts, take over state legislatures, politicize an issue that did not used to be politicized. I mean, there's like an , there's an actual book. We know this. There's an actual playbook.

And that's been exported to again, the same people, the same money with, with the same end . So the , the research that came out recently with Femini , so focused on a handful of countries, it wasn't , uh, wasn't a , you know, 86 country , um, research. But what they saw was that there had been impact in the last year and a couple of different ways.

One in laws and policy, two in narrative, and then the third in terms of how movements are responding. So in laws and policy, Dobbs has been referenced in a number of spaces in which politicians or legislatures are either pointing to their own laws as being bad laws . So using the same type of argument and then referencing Dobbs , right?

That was used in the majority opinion or in referencing Dobbs in terms of like, in Dobbs we want to do X and the United States as a leader, you know , et cetera . So we've, that, that has happened and it's on record in multiple countries as anti rights legislation or anti rights legislators are trying to move that forward. So we're seeing that happen. Um, the next is the narrative change, right?

And learning the anti rights movement, picking up from that narrative change and then how that change that they see from the United States impacts the way they're now talking about abortion . And again, like whether or not the United States should be, it's a global leader in narrative making .

And so if you have then a country that continues to call itself a human rights leader, that continues to forefront itself in the global economy and the global political space, then making a very clear statement that abortion rights are not rights, that women, girls and people who can get pregnant do not deserve bodily autonomy.

Like that narrative changes is we're also seeing that shift , um, as people pick up that narrative and of course justify it by pointing back to the United States , um, which is in a sense, particularly in, in spaces like , um, where anti g bt q I laws are, are deeply colonial, right? Like anti LGBTQI are deeply colonial.

And that this like, it seems counterintuitive that then you'd pick up another colonizing powers narrative. But like this is happening despite that, that disconnect. Then the third is in the movements, right?

And you have seen a real emboldening of the anti rights movement, particularly the Antisexual reproductive Health and rights and the anti BT q i rights movements , um, a real emboldening of what they think they can get done and what they're willing to do to get that done.

And you know, you take an example like Poland where the, the passing of this abortion law is just one piece, like you said earlier, it's just one piece in the puzzle. The , the birth registration came very quickly afterwards. There's an NGO registration law that's trying to be pushed through trying to shut down civil society.

There's, you know, there's a , a shrinking civil society space that's , these things are happening. There's a , a gender, I dunno , how do you say it in English, but like , um, like gender normalcy, kinda like ultimately policing gender around whether or not being G B T Q I is within national standards of goodness, right?

I mean, like the , these get really, really scary very quickly and, and they're all connected because then you're so emboldened by what was a huge deal overturning roe , um, that that moves forward. So, so that part's very scary. And the United States setting that precedent is terrifying. Cause it's one thing to say there've only been three other countries.

And then it's another thing to say the fourth one is the United States. And that is really terrifying. And I think that activists, you know, globally, look, when the United States sneezes, the world catches a cold and activists globally are, are looking to us and saying like, oh, this, this is gonna impact us.

And, and of course it impacts two countries that receive us funding because there's real fear around what this means for funding. Obviously there's already major restrictions on US funding , um, in terms of sexual reproductive health and rights. But you've seen an embolden Congress go after funding.

So again, this is like a 40 year tirade on, on how connected these things are and how important it is to see them as connected and to be able to, to fight that. Because the same thing we learned on, on why Argentina was successful after so many years, why Ireland is successful.

It's around narrative change and seeing these things as connected to an issue that maybe someone else was willing to listen to when they weren't willing to listen to abortion . And that's the same on the side too . We've gotta sees as connected they are . And we , we can't one at a time , okay ,

Speaker 1

So this feels like a good place to maybe like do the step back and go, so what, what can our audience do about all this? This all feels one, there's so much good news, right? Yeah . There , the overall trend is liberalization, but like seeing what's happened in those three countries and this like authoritarian strain through, through all of that. So what can the , what can we do?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, you know, there's, there's so much, there's no magic wand, right? 19 , it . I know. I really want believe ,

Speaker 1

I really thought be just ,

Speaker 2

Here's the one thing ,

Speaker 1

One thing , and it's real easy .

Speaker 2

It's , you know , there's, as every reproductive org and rights org knows that like, man, we'd put it on our website if there was like one thing. But, but the most important thing is to stay engaged. It is exhausting, it is discouraging, but it is really important to stay engaged. And that can mean a number of things depending on, on where you are. So let me start with this.

The first thing that people should do is to take heart. So , which is the Latin American consortium against insecure abortion, it's like the broad Latin American movement for abortion rights just met , um, two weeks ago in Panama , um, in late June in Panama.

And you know, this is a gathering in which people who, who are still in activists, who are still in really tough political circumstances, who are really, who have s flogged through the long fight get together. We think about, you know, globally, you know, together how we're thinking in these, these spaces, amnesty Latin American offices are there, you know, et cetera . And lots of on the ground grassroots folks are there.

And this is a space where the United States was a huge topic of conversation, and not just in lessons learned, but in how to support, how to show solidarity.

So, you know, people, there are people everywhere around the world who also don't know what the magic wand is, but they're like , they're ready to stand in solidarity and they are standing in solidarity and just knowing that that is, even though, you know, are , are you seeing that? Are you feeling that like no , that is happening in these conversations.

And you know, every time , uh, so as folks may know, amne Student International is a global grassroots organization, and I just work here in the United States that like people are, they are shocked, they are concerned and they are ready if they're , the thing can be done. They're , they're ready to do it. And of course it's, it . There is no one thing.

And so there's not gonna be this magic wand we can wave to feel that. But people should take heart that one, we are in the majority, we are in the majority , the majority of people around the world, three out of five believe abortion should be legal in the United States. We know the majority of people believe that abortion should be legal.

And people in the United States and globally have complicated feelings about abortion, but they don't believe in further restrictions. They don't believe that the government should be the one to decide what's best for a pregnant person. So we should take heart in that. And I think that, I think it really, really matters because, you know, we need the fuel to keep going.

Like if you're running a marathon, you have to eat those goop acts or whatever, like you need to be, be fueling your body. And that's true emotionally too in the marathon. That is human rights work and reproductive rights work, which are of course, human rights. Like we need to be fueling our ourselves.

So, so take heart, like globally, the world is on our side and yes, the powers that that make up these decisions have made it very difficult for the majority to win. That's not to belay reality, but that the world's on our side. So the first thing is to take heart . The second thing is to stay engaged. What does it look like to support abortion access in your life, in your community, in your space?

So one is talk about abortion. Talk about abortion whenever you can. Whenever there's an opportunity, whenever it comes up in the news, which is all the time whenever you're at a gathering where someone says something hinky like there is a way to talk about abortion in that's safe for you, making sure you're of course physically and emotionally safe. But like, talk about abortion.

Abortion is normal, abortion is healthcare, abortion is safe and abortion is a human right. And you don't have to be an expert on abortion care or the stats to, to have a conversation about abortion. So like really making abortion a kitchen table issue.

Like what happens, like as we get into election season and we're gonna hear about kitchen table issues a lot, and the thing we're gonna hear about is the economy , which is always a kitchen table issue. Like abortion needs to be a kitchen table issue. Like elections are coming this year of course, but they are also, especially coming next year with every big election with the presidential elections, a big election.

Abortion needs to be a kitchen table issue. Talk about abortion, talk about it. You know, if you have someone who is like violently anti-abortion in your life, don't start there. Talk about abortion, talk about it with people that you know, support abortion. Ask each other how you're gonna talk about abortion with people, how you're gonna bring it up. So talk about abortion.

If you have an abortion story to tell that you feel safe telling, you should tell that story. But if you don't have an abortion to tell story to tell, or you don't feel safe telling it, or don't wanna talk about abortion, talk about abortion, talk about abortion, the next thing people can do is to think about what sphere of control do you have? Where are you living and what does abortion look like?

So we are lucky and unlucky enough to live in DC , the District of Columbia. Like what does it mean to support abortion access right here, right? How are people getting abortions? Where , when do they need abortions? How do people access abortion in the sp the sphere of control that I have here?

As someone who lives here, you may live in a space that if you live in a space with abortion restrictions, that it's gonna be different, but likely there's a lot of growing grassroots , um, abortion support networks. So if there's an abortion support network in your town or your region, find out, can you provide a ride? Can you do a cash drop off , right?

And these should be things that like, are organized through people who already are organizing these, right? Don't worry ladies, like it's happening, right? So find the people who have been doing this for a long time and get involved to whatever extent you have. If you don't have a car, you're not gonna be a good ride person, but you might be the person who can be on the bus with someone, right?

And that's, that's gonna be more in urban spaces obviously. But there's also abortion funds and there are abortion funds across every state and territory. Like there are abortion funds. How can you get involved into abortion funds? Obviously if you have the money, give the money. Abortion costs money. Cause our healthcare system is a nightmare in the United States and all healthcare costs money.

If you have money, give to an abortion fund. If you don't have that money to give, figure out how you can support them. Talk about the abortion fund with people. Go to some of their events. Even if you can't donate, be in touch with them in terms of maybe they're doing advocacy, maybe they're doing outreach, how you can be involved so that, you know, that's like really local, right? Also , what is your city?

If you live in a city, both of you and I grew up in extremely rural townships, we did not have such things as city borders or councils.

But if you live in a place with a city authority of some stripe, an alder board or a , we have city hall here with um , council members, reach out to the lowest rung person that represents you and make sure they know that you support abortion and you'll be , why would this matter if Councilman Allen knows that I support abortion? It matters because at some point there's gonna be another vote in a town.

Even if the town is very liberal, even if the town is super conservative and you're like, there's no hope or it's only hope, reach out to your elected officials at the lowest rung and make sure that they know that like abortion access is important to you and you don't quite know what's going on right now with abortion, but you expect when it comes up that they're gonna fight for it, right?

Again, you don't have to be an expert on the codes and laws in your town, like make a call, send an email if you don't wanna get on the phone, but also get on the phone. It matters twice as much than an email. Like , get on the phone , talk to a stranger for 20 seconds. You can write out your script. It's okay , leave a message. You don't have to be great at phones. Like, make that call.

So then we're sort of like, what's it mean to level up, right? What is your state doing if you're lucky enough to live in a state? Exactly . Voting rights. Exactly, which is not the district of Columbia. Like what is your state legislature looking like? You have then two representatives.

You have a state senator and a state , uh, representative except for I think Nebraska, which is the one unicameral , but everyone else is by camera . Like, call those folks, send an email second and call them again. You can have a scripted call, you can , if you're scared of the phone, it's okay , write it out, then hang up immediately. It's, you don't have to make friends. Like, just make that call.

Make sure they know you support abortion, right? And then if you then investigate a little more like what's actually on the docket, what you can fight for or not fight for. But if you're not, if you don't wanna level up to that, that's okay . Just make that one call. And even if they're friendly, right? Like especially if they , they're friendly, thank go a long way to know that.

Like, hey, hey , because they have to know what , that's exactly right . They have to know what political capital they have on this. So make those calls. Those are things you can do immediately without like digging into like what laws and codes are going on in my state right now. But then the next thing to do is like, what's happening in your state?

So I'm from California and obviously California has been doing great work that took a load of work to get those laws passed.

Like I , you know, not a California voter, I live in DC but if I lived in that state, like try and get involved, figure out what the organizations and the folks who are leading need and what is the thing you can provide and you don't, again, it should , you should definitely make this your full-time hobby.

But like, even just like showing up to the rallies or spreading the word or you know, volunteering to, to make the copies or whatever it is that someone needs that day. Like the work to make sure that abortion rights are not just on the books but are are accessible. That's work that like physically people gotta show up and do. And so figure out what that is in your state.

And, and if you're in a, you're a great, you're like, I'm such a good state. I'm in California. They just passed this package of abortion rights and it's so exciting that that work still needs to be done. And if you're in a devastated state, like, and we could list, there's so many of them , but Texas, of course in Florida, if you're in a state where you're like, they have stripped all the rights, it is awful.

Find out what people, because that's still the work still needs to get done. You don't have to know the answer, you don't have to solve the problem. You just gotta show up in whatever way you can. That's the state level. And then of course we live in a federal government. Call your representative, call your senators. And again, I know the phone is scary. I'm all , no , I hate the phone. Please don't call me.

But like never call, like if someone calls me, I'm like , you better be dying. Uh , yeah , I don't but like, make that call and call, call, don't send an email. It's so much more important when you call because it gets measured differently. It just gets measured differently.

All you have to do is call and say like, my name is Tara de Demand I live in, of course we don't have voting representation, but I live in Washington DC I'm calling Representative Holmes to make sure that she knows that I support abortion rights and I expect her to do everything she can to fight for abortion. They , you don't have to list 17 bills, they know what bills fight for abortion. You're right.

Make that call so that they know that there's something going on, right? Again, this is things you can do like in the next 30 minutes, whenever you're, hey call after hours, no one will pick up, leave a message. The safest way to do it, right? , you don't have to talk to anybody's intern, right? So these are things you can do immediately and you can just start to see where you can plug into the movement.

Because I think there can be a , um, one, there's fatigue and that's intentional. The anti rates movement is throwing everything at us to fatigue. Like it's to fatigue us. And it is like, if you can't win, it's like, you know, at the fair you play whack-a-mole whack . If you can't win on that, they'll win on something else. Cuz they'll just tire us out, right? This is a long game.

Do the things you can do, plug in . So there's that fatigue, but also that , um, it's being locked because you dunno exactly what the right thing is to do. Let go of the idea that there is a perfect activism. You , it doesn't exist. We don't have the answers . The reaper rights movement does not have the perfect answer. So it's not like you are the one the silly and can't figure it out.

No one knows what the perfect answer is or we would've done it. So try something that makes sense for you and your capacity. Nothing, not an option. Try one thing. Maybe it's, maybe it's committing to like the next time you're in a room with someone and abortion comes up on the news just talking about it , there's lots of guidance for that . You know, you can go to um, um, all above all has a great guide .

You can just like, how do I talk about abortion? Google it . 14 things will come up. The National Network for Abortion Fund has , but ultimately like leading with curiosity, trying not to shut down a conversation even when someone is bananagrams about it. But like really trying to like, reach out with empathy and just like settled in your own core values. Why do you know abortion is important? Why do you believe this?

Right? That's easy peasy. Um, those conversations are hard, but like you can try one, it doesn't have to go perfectly, right ? You can do things right now, but, but nothing is not an option. And then, I dunno , if we figure out the perfect solution, we'll, we'll let you know. We'll let you know. We'll let you know for sure, right ? Yeah , yeah . Like fight , fight for those things that matter.

Elections are coming up. Like get engaged. There are mult , not every state can do this. There are multiple states that are gonna be doing a ballot initiative. Ohio has one coming up for this year. 2023. Arizona has one coming up 2024. If you are in those states, get involved with a ballot initiative. If you don't wanna talk to people, that's fine. I hate people too . Be the person who runs copies.

Be the person who like, I mean, there's maybe postcard, there's postcard campaigns. Like figure out if you're in a ballot initiative state. Unfortunately not every state has that, that , um, process in place. You can do that, find a thing and then level yourself up from there. There are so many things you can do. Write a letter to the editor. This is like the longest podcast ever. I'm so sorry to your editor, .

But like, there are so many things you can do. Write a letter to the editor, apropo of nothing, because abortion is always in the news, especially if you're in a space that has a smaller paper. So like , I'm from a very, very tiny town as you know. And we have , um, it's a collective paper for four different townships. These are townships of like a thousand people . Yep .

If you wrote a letter to the editor, 100% it's being published and also is, is a really, really important mouthpiece for , for keeping abortion in the news, right? And also your elected representation reads all the local papers. Yeah , write a letter to the editor. You don't have to be like, here are the stats on abortion.

It can be like, you know, I saw on the news X, Y , Z and I'm really concerned that, that we're moving into a space where people won't have control over their bodies or here's why I think abortion is important and I hope others will support the right of other people to make that decision for themselves. You don't have to be Shakespeare to make this work, write a letter to the editor, right? Especially small papers.

But even if you're in a large city, like write a letter. If your local papers , the Washington Post, which ours is , like, write a letter to the Washington Post. Get , you know, make that letter to the editor happen. You don't have to talk to anybody to do that. Yes . Write 300 words and you can Google how to write a letter to the editor. And the advice is keep it short, keep it direct.

You know, it's not rocket science. So that's another thing you can do. You know , there are so many things. Commit to a voting plan. Voting whether or not abortion's on your ballot. Abortion is on your ballot. So figure out if you're registered to vote, figure out now, because lots of states are making it harder and harder to register.

Um, the Congress is coming of course, for DC's registration laws, unfortunately is the newest news, but like, it is going to be harder to register to vote. So, so do that now. Figure out now make sure you're registered. Triple check if you voted every election since you turned 18. Triple check that you're registered and have a voting day plan.

I know it's July and you're like, elections aren't until November and maybe you don't even have elections this November. Be next year. Like, get your voting plan now because like, be an abortion voter. Right? Figure those things out. So there's like 50 things you can do for abortion rates right now, but like, take heart, like we are all in this together. The global movement is joyful.

It's strong, it has history on its side. It is here with us. None of us know the magic answer, but like, we will do this together. You'll do your one thing. I'll do my one thing if we're tired, if we're frustrated, we'll talk to each other. We won't like give up. Right. And we'll keep moving forward.

Speaker 1

Ok . So I really did not expect to end this conversation talking about , uh, like where we were wrapping up, talking about how things were bad in the US and like the regressive countries on abortion with hope. But Tara

Speaker 2

,

Speaker 1

I'm ending with hope, which is weird. And I think we should stop while we're ahead.

Speaker 2

I think so. I think so too. And yet , so let me , let me end with this. And the , because , uh, you know, I'm such a cynical d like black hearted person, so it's odd for me to be hopeful just as a general thing. But I, I take this from Justia who is, this is a case Amnesty's worked on for a long time.

And so I've been privileged to be able to speak with Justia and our Polish team has worked really hard on this. They're part of the abortion Dream team, which it's called something else in Polish . In Polish. But Lord knows , um, and you know, Justia was sentenced to eight months of community service, which was best case scenario. Yeah. Like absolute best case scenario. And Justia is like, oh no, we'll appeal this.

I'd rather go to jail cause this shouldn't be a crime. She's like, I'll fight this until the day I die. And this is a person that whose whole life has been on hold, you know, in terms of trying , going through what could be a terrifying end for her, which is being imprisoned for helping an abuse victim seek out healthcare . Right.

And this, so this is like, if Justinian can like laugh in the face of the Polish courts who are trying to actively imprison her, I can make a phone call to my representative. I can write a letter to the editor. I can get over needing to be perfect at that and get that out. I can have a conversation with my mom about why it's not just enough to, to say abortion, but Right.

Like, I can have a conversation even with my great-aunt when she says something hinky about abortion and be like, you know, I just think we need , you know, we need to leave with compassion here. Here's why abortion's important to me. Cause if Justin can like laugh in the face of Polish courts coming for her, like we can lead with hope. We can lead with joy.

Um, so yeah, no, I, I am hopeful and it's, it's not, it's not because I'm naturally hopeful. It's cause I know we will win. I know we will win and we just have to be the pe we just have to be part of that movement. We just have to keep moving forward together. And it's tiring and it's sad and it's scary, but I know we will win and we can move together, fully enjoy together and, and it is hopeful. Perfect.

Speaker 1

Tara , thank you so much for being here and thank you for hope .

Speaker 2

Yes, thank you . Thank you for the opportunity to talk about abortion . It's the best thing to talk about. It's the only thing to talk about. It's the world we wanna live

Speaker 1

In . What else is going on? Yeah,

Speaker 2

Almost, almost nothing. That's the other thing is like, there's so many things going on. We can make little changes. We like, we can do this being part of the forward movement even as we see these massive backslides. I know they're terrifying. We know this. Especially we live in the middle of it, but like we can move forward together. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Okay

Speaker 1

Y'all, I hope you enjoyed my interview with Tara . I had a great time talking to her and getting to see her in person and it was just lovely. Uh, so I'll see y'all in two weeks. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at Jenny jn , [email protected] . Or you can find us on social media.

We're at Repro Fight back on Facebook and Twitter or repro FB on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our [email protected]. Thanks all .

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