Rev. Katey Zeh on Her New Book A Complicated Choice: Making Space for Grief and Healing in the Pro-Choice Movement

So before we get into this episode, I just wanna flag. I recorded this the day before the SCOTUS decision came out. So Katie and I do not talk about obviously the fall of Roe in this conversation because it hadn't happened yet. We talk around it. So like, don't think it it's irrelevant. Now we , we talk a lot about it. Just, it hadn't actually been announced. So there's, you know, we , we don't discuss the decision itself. I , uh , it is been a long stretch, right?

I, I'm still really sad and really angry. I'm still working through all of my feelings. I took the weekend to try and revive and recover and, and , uh, feel all the feelings, right. It's a lot y'all and, and just know again, that this is a marathon and not a sprint it's really now more important than ever that we are taking care of ourselves and each other check in on your friends, in the movement. It's exhausting. And so it's okay to take a step back and check out for a little while. It's okay.

You can't do it all all the time. Like we can't, we are not made that way. We need to take a step back and recharge and step back in when you can. And, and I think that's what we're gonna be needing to do a lot of right now. I think I'm gonna keep my intro pretty short , Katie and I had kind of a long conversation. So I , I might just stop there and just, just say, take care , take care of each other and take care of yourself. And with that, let's turn to my interview with Katie y'all.

I am so excited for this conversation. Katie is just, she's a friend. She is just, she's amazing. Y'all she's just utterly amazing. I am always a bit in awe of her. She just has this amazing way of talking about these issues with so much heart and love. And every time I just sit back and listen in awe, because she's just pretty freaking amazing. So Reverend Katie Z is the executive director of the religious coalition for reproductive choice. She's also a pastor.

She has also written two books and she hosts her own podcast. When I say this woman is talented, she is really freaking talented. Look at all this stuff she has done. She is amazing. I am just so grateful. She took time to talk to me, to talk to us all, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Hi Katie . Thank you so much for being here. Hi, Jenny . It's so good to be back. I'm excited.

I'm excited to talk to you too, I guess before we get started, do you wanna take a quick second and introduce yourself ? Absolutely. I'm Reverend Katie Z . I'm the CEO of the religious coalition for reproductive choice or RCRC. And I just published my second book, a complicated choice, making space for grief and healing in the pro-choice movement.

I'm so excited to talk to you about a number of things, one of them being your book, but I kinda thought like in this moment, first of all, I think we need to flag. We are recording this on Thursday, June 23rd . So Roe has not been like the Dobbs decision has not come out yet . It may come out in between when we've recorded and when this comes out next Tuesday, but just feels like a useful flag to put down. But one of the things I have seen you speak really eloquently about is burnout.

There's a lot going on right now and we're all feeling it . And I thought I would just give you some space to talk about it . Cause I think it's so important that we address it because if we don't address it, it's just gonna keep getting worse, such an important conversation. And I'm certain, this will resonate with a lot of listeners who work in this space or really just being a human being right now is difficult.

I can speak a little bit about my own journey, which was the day that SBA in Texas happened. I recognized within myself that I did not have an emotional reaction to it. I just felt completely numbed out. And it really took me by surprise because I'd never experienced that kind of a reaction to something so huge and horrifying. And I thought, well, that's weird. Let me just sit with that. And I would try to write about it or talk about it.

And it was almost like I didn't have anything to say, which as a writer is really difficult because normally words are my go-to for processing things. And I just, I didn't have anything left. And I was in therapy one day. I have an amazing therapist and I was articulating to her how I was feeling about it. And she said, Katie , you're you have burnout big time and you need to take time off. And I don't mean a couple of days. You need to take significant time off.

This was October of last year or maybe September. Yeah, this was September of last year, cuz that's when SBA came down. And uh , my first reaction of course was I can't do that. I can't take time off right now. There's so much going on. We've got everything going on, all the excuses that, that we can come up with for not doing it, but the more I sat with it and the more I talked about it with my team, I realized I really did need to do that for, for my own sake.

And so I took three weeks off in October and that was probably just enough time for me to realize how burned out I was. And, and so as someone who, you know, needs a job needs to be employed. I'm the breadwinner for my family right now, which I'm honored to do. I've had to figure out ways to cultivate more of a sustainable approach to this work. And you've been doing this work for a long time.

Jenny, as have I been engaged in the repro movement since my early twenties, I'm almost , I just turned 39 . So it's over 15 years now. It's a long time to be in this work, especially when, when it's so difficult. And so just remembering for me that I'm, I am one person. I do have a unique role to play. I know that I'm supposed to be in this work. I very much feel it's my calling and it's not just on me and it's gonna , the work is gonna continue after my lifetime . I'm very confident of that .

As much as I wish we could solve this in, in our lifetime, I , I just don't think that that's the case. And so making sure that I can do this work with in the way that I want to, from a place of hope and joy and enjoying my life. I think that that's really essential. We don't talk enough about how to do that.

And so I know for me what I've tried to cultivate in my organization and with my team really during the pandemic, starting with the pandemic is just your wellbeing is the most important thing. It's more important than any of the work that we do. And I really try to make that the value of how we do our work and applying it to myself is the most challenging thing. But I'm learning, I'm learning to do it. Oh, I feel that so much.

Like I'm so good about talking to my colleagues about like, no, like you need to step back like take the time, but like actually doing it on my, like taking my own advice. I'm terrible at it. And it is a discipline. It's not easy rest taking a break, caring for ourselves that is discipline, it's work, it's labor. And sometimes it gives us the space to deal with the things that we don't wanna deal with. It allows the emotions to come up.

You know, when I was talking about the numb feeling, I think sometimes work becomes a coping strategy for not feeling what we're feeling. And I know a lot of my healing work for myself the last few years has really been about getting in touch with that hard space . And what is it that I'm actually feeling and that work can be really, really uncomfortable. So I understand it.

So if you're listening to this, take this as permission and an invitation for you to , to identify if you're burned out and to start looking at what you need to do to take care of yourself, easier said than done. I really do understand that, but you've got a community of people who are cheering you on and taking care of yourself.

Yeah. I, I recognize that numb space, like mm-hmm , , it feels like when those big decisions or things have come down, there may be like a small time of like the anger or the sadness. And then it's just like shove it into the box. We have to like move on and do the thing. And like that is not useful because at some point, and I'm sure it , it may be past that, like that box can't hold all of the things that are getting shoved into it and like need to deal with and address and yeah .

Taking the space to do it. Yeah. Cause sometimes what we end up doing is really taking it out on each other. And that's not to say that there aren't real issues of injustice within our movement. I'm sure you've talked about that with lots of guests and just with your colleagues and at the same time, I think you're right. That what we are experiencing is a form of trauma. It really is. And many of us come into this work traumatized. I know that I did.

That is in part my motivation for why I do it. And so not, not dealing with that. And again, it's a lot of work, but when we don't, I think it does come out in these moments when we just can't take it anymore . And we end up doing more harm to ourselves and to each other in this community. So I think this feels like a good chance to shift to your book because I think you talk about some of that in the book, but mm-hmm it was so good.

Y'all like, please, please check out Katie's book a complicated choice. Do we wanna tell us a little bit about it? Sure. I like to tell people that it's not the book that I proposed to write. I was going to write something a lot more expansive about reproductive loss in which I wanted abortion to be part of it. But when I put my proposal together, my publisher came back and said, we really want you to focus on the complicated feelings that people have around their abortion experiences.

And it's definitely the book I was supposed to write . It was the book I was afraid to write because writing about abortion is like putting a target on your back, which I already have from the work that I do. But it just felt like I don't know , an even larger target, maybe , maybe next level. Yeah. Next level, next level.

And at the same time, it felt like a book that needed to be written because at least in the books that I've read and the conversations that I've had within this space, there just, aren't a lot of conversations about the fact that people can make abortion decisions and have a lot of nuanced and complicated feelings about it. And it doesn't mean that the decision was something that they shouldn't have done.

It's just a deeply human thing, not for everybody, but for, for a lot of people, a lot of people that I've talked to in the pro-choice movement have told me their abortion stories and said, I don't share all of my experience with my colleagues because I don't want my story to be turned against the movement. I don't wanna share that I grieved or wish that I could have made a different decision if my circumstances have been different. And I just thought this is not okay.

This is not okay that we're not creating space for people's full abortion experiences, whether they tell them to us or not. And that was why I wanted to write the book was just to offer space for people to really show up in their full humanity. It is an abortion storytelling book. I'm not someone who has experienced abortion in my life.

And I wanted to center the people who have, and what I try to do is tie the stories together under some common themes, which was difficult because there's so much overlap and so many unique things about each story, really tying the people's individual decision making and circumstances to the larger systemic issues that we know impact people's reproductive flourishing in the book. So that's a little bit about a complicated choice.

I loved all of the storytellers who are so generous in sharing with me. Some of whom were sharing things for the first time publicly, which I really take as a, as a sacred honor and responsibility. And, you know, for context, what I really want people to do is to start thinking about their own internalized abortion stigma.

That's a huge part of the book is really about the ways that just living in this culture, in which the anti-abortion movement is so insidious and loud, it's impossible not to have absorbed at least some of their messages around abortion.

And so my hope is that by listening to people's stories that we can start identifying the parts within us that maybe have some discomfort or UNE or questions about abortion and start to dismantle that stigma so that we can show up for people in a more compassionate way. And I think that that's really essential work for all of us to be doing right now, a lot more is gonna be needed in terms of direct service and care for people.

And so doing that internal work as someone who wants to be helpful is so important because if we don't, we end up replicating harm that we don't intend. This book could have been done really poorly, right? There are so many ways talking about this could have gone wrong. And, and I couldn't think of a better person to come at this with such compassion and love for the stories that it just like bleeds through in the book.

Like, I , I just couldn't imagine somebody else writing this book in such a way, like, I think you just did an amazing job telling the stories and making the points you were trying to make . So thank you for that were stories that needed to be told. And I think did an amazing , I also really enjoyed you talking about dealing with abortion St like the internalized abortion stigma. I've definitely told, you know, my stories about, you know, I grew up going to Catholic school.

I definitely got a lot of that obviously through that time. And so, you know, dealing with all of those things that you , you hear and just take on, even if you don't necessarily believe them , but like, it , it just you're steeping in it. Right? Like it's just everywhere. And I thought that was a really good chance to reflect on things that I have been doing and maybe not framing it that way in my head. Right.

Like just working through, learning more about abortion and abortion stories and where I feel uncomfortable with things and then dealing with it because like, that's me, that's not about abortion, right? That's not about people who need the care. That's like things that I have taken on that are unhelpful and like starting to work through them . Yes. Very beautifully put.

And you were making me so teary a minute ago , so thank you for sorry , a minute to , no, it was very, it was very sweet and that means a lot. I really do feel like I was entrusted with this very precious thing. So I'm, I'm thankful that it landed that way on you and for the storytellers themselves to tell me how seen and honored they felt . That is the most important thing . So thank you . Um , it was an honor to do it .

And one of the first people I spoke with when I started to write the book was Renee Bray , Sherman from we. And she really helped me in that framing around abortion stigma. And of course we testify and youth testify storytellers are , are throughout the book, very compelling storytellers who are wonderfully supported in community . It's a beautiful model that they have.

And like you, I didn't grow up in Catholic school going on to Catholic school, but I did grow up in a conservative evangelical community. And I talked about that the last time I was on, on the show. And even though I don't actually ever remember myself being opposed to abortion personally, the , that those were not the values that were taught to me in my house, my household, I definitely had the abortion stigma for sure.

And I talk about in the book, the moment I really realized that was when I walked into an abortion clinic for the first time to volunteer and was perceived to be a patient. And that really bothered me because, well, one's just not fun to be yelled at and harassed for one, but also I didn't really wanna be perceived as someone there to have an abortion. And I had to figure out why that bothered me so much. And it was because I had judgements about people who have abortions.

And I thought that wasn't me. I saw people having abortions as separate from me. And honestly, I've never said it this way, but that's kind of the definition of sin. That makes sense to me is like the idea that we're separate from each other, because we all are interconnected. We are, we are in community with each other and what impacts one person impacts all of us.

And so, again, I've never said it that way on any other show, but it like that really did feel like the thing that I needed to, to really work on within myself. And I liken it to internalize racism and sexism and all those things. It , it is a product of living in this culture. It doesn't mean it's our individual fault that we have these things, but it is our responsibility to address them. And when we do that work, we free ourselves for one. And then we also make ourselves available to center.

The people who are most impacted . Yeah. Similar to you. Like, I think I had my first encounter with like thinking through abortion. It was kind of put on me versus like I had thought it through yet. Uh , and I've told the story lots of times, but with a girl, I went to school with asking me to go with her, to go to Madison, to save babies. And like, I hadn't really thought of abortion yet. Cuz like, I don't know , we were in like fourth or fifth grade. Like we were pretty young and like, yeah .

So I hadn't like thought through anything or even really knew completely all the things. So, and so when I went home to talk about it, like that's when it was like, okay, we need to sit down and have a conversation. And like, so I was very lucky to be in a house where we had a deeper conversation to deal with like, okay , you need to think about this much bigger. And like here's all the things you need to consider when you're thinking about this idea.

And then they gave me the space to make my own decision on if I still wanted to go save babies or not. Right. And like that, I also found like what, like you gave, you're giving me the , the autonomy to make that decision. Right . Right. Even after being like, have you thought it through really that's such an interesting parallel . Yeah. Uh , which was great.

Yes. And I mean, as you were talking, I was just thinking, and this is kind of taking us on a , a little bit of a tangent, but it's related, which is how certain faith communities, Christian communities in particular really do prey on the vulnerability of, of young people, of children, of, of adolescence. And I think about my own experience of purity culture, right? The idea that to be pure is to not have any kind of sexual relationship with anyone until you're in a heterosexual marriage.

Those ideas were introduced to me before I really had even gone through puberty all of the way. And so making commitments or decisions about things that I really had no context for is pretty manipulative. And when I think about things like project Rachel , this anti-abortion post-abortion ministry, again kind of preying on people's vulnerabilities who are maybe having some feelings about their abortions that are difficult and they don't have a therapist.

Maybe they can't afford one to then be told that the reason that they're having those emotions is because they did something wrong is very manipulative. And when we talk about reproductive coercion, I think there's also spiritual coercion that happens in not respecting people's autonomy.

And so I'm so glad that what was modeled for you as a young person, cuz young people have moral agency was, you know, we're gonna make sure you have all the information that you need to make the decision that feels right to you right now. That that is a beautiful thing . And I think so few young people have that kind of experience within their faith communities and within their families and communities.

Yeah. I didn't realize how rare that was until I went to college and met some people who were from other more conservative faith traditions who like were really taught, like, not like this is the authority and this is like, you don't question things like this is how it is .

And so after like being around some people like that, like it really gave me this much deeper appreciation of that conversation and like setting me up to like think through all the things and question it and make my own decisions because there were so many people who weren't raised that way and like just, this is what it is and this is how we think, and we're not gonna question it. And that's, it was just very different from the way I was raised.

So many parallels there of just not making space for nuance and complexity. Yeah . And just using control of, if you wanna belong here, then you need to subscribe to these values and ways of doing things. And that's definitely the kind of faith community I was raised in. So I really enjoyed that.

You talked about stigma because when I, I did a couple episodes where I had storytellers come on and tell their stories and like the through line that came through and like, I wanna say all the stories, but maybe not all, but for sure most was stigma and it , it was externalized like stigma. They didn't feel for themselves, but they felt whether it was protestors or community or just the level of stigma around abortion.

And I think your book does a really good job of the fuller story's realities there , complicated feeling around that stigma, you about your experience of storytellers. That was definitely a through line in the conversations that I had. I don't know that they named it as stigma specifically, but a sense of isolation is definitely what people felt, which those are related to each other because when things are stigmatized, they're silenced and people feel isolated in those experiences.

I think part of it too, even people who were supportive of their, of their partners or their family members going through abortion experiences didn't necessarily have a framework or language, like just didn't know how to accompany them supportively. And I talk about this in the book too, that there's lots of different kinds of grief that people go through or losses that people go through.

And as a culture, especially a white culture in particular, we don't do a very good job of holding space for people's grief or emotions. In general. I was just talking about this with, I think it was with my husband yesterday. Who's a therapist.

And how so often when people articulate feelings that they're having that are negative, you know, we often like will say things that are about our own discomfort with their difficult feelings, because we take ownership of other people's feelings and we don't wanna feel that way and instead what it is , what we really ought to be doing is just creating space for people to go through those emotions and trusting them that they can handle their own emotional experiences.

And we're just there to create space for them to express and to feel them and maybe offer support. But , but I think that there's something to that of just even for the people who want to be there for others through this, there's a certain amount of, of training required. I think, because we just are not adept at these conversations. We don't talk much about abortion in general, obviously you and I talk about abortion a lot more than the average person.

And it's kind of like talking about whiteness for the first time as a white person's like, this is really, I don't know how to do this. I don't wanna mess it up . Well , you're going , it takes some practice . And I think all of could probably use some practice in how to talk with people about their abortion experiences so that we can learn how to be supportive in the ways that they need . Oh man , a couple things really hit me. Uh , while you were talking about that.

And one is of unrelated and talking about how uncomfortable people are with feelings and like strong feelings. It makes me think of the , I hate even talking about it , but the Amber heard trial and like the jurors coming out and being like all of her crying, like we were really uncomfortable and like made us not trust her . And I just like, because you didn't wanna deal with her feelings , you were just like , no it's lies. And like, just not to get into like all of that.

Cause like it's its own Hmm . Thing I can't talk about right now. But it just like that, like talking about the feelings and like that was the part where they were like, no, we're not gonna no , oh , so much misogyny and internalized sexism and patriarchy of the only thing that matters is what you can say in an intellectual way. And if you can't talk about a deeply emotional experience in a detached way, then what you must be talking about is a lie. Yeah. Oh , that is patriarchy right there.

and then the other thing you started to bring up was, was whiteness. And I have heard you and seeing you write very eloquently about white supremacy in repro and pro-life so really talked a lot on indeed. I , I think talking specifically about white Christian nationalism is so important these days when we're talking about, well, really anything going on in terms of injustice, because it's all connected to that.

And as someone who is an ordained minister, I think it's especially important and who identifies as white is really important to talk about how all of those things are interconnected. And I think for, for people to understand the history of how we got to this moment, white Christian nationalism is all over it from the very beginning.

And I'm sure you've talked on the podcast about the anti-abortion movement and it's being intertwined with the political agenda of the , again, the white Christian nationalist. I'm not gonna call em the religious right . Cause that makes them sound like they're . But really it's always been about racism and sexism and classism and Christian nationalism from the very beginning. That's why it's been so very successful.

And we know the disproportionate harm that these bans and laws do to black and indigenous people of color. We know, we know that that's true. And so I think as a, you know, as a white person in a movement that historically has been run by white people, it's especially important to talk about how the whiteness in particular is intertwined with, with all of this. I remember going to the abortion clinic of the doc , Dr .

Carhart's clinic in Maryland, or when Dr. Carhart was , was providing later abortion care in Maryland. I went to the first day that he was serving there. And I was with colleagues from, from the religious coalition for reproductive choice . One of whom was a black woman and the people who were there to protest the clinic were all white people. And I can remember one of the protestors approaching this black woman and talking about abortion as black genocide.

And I was infuriated for lots of reasons by that. And I did not really have the framework at the time. I had not done a lot of my own work around whiteness, but what I said to this white woman was look at everybody, who's here on your side. This is the whitest group of people I've ever seen. There was not a single black person there.

And I'm not to say that there aren't black folks who are involved in the anti-abortion movement because there are, but I think the arguments that are made by the anti-abortion movement around race in particular are so offensive because they do not recognize the history of reproductive coercion and oppression in this country of black women in particular.

And I'm sure you've talked about this book, but killing the black body for me by Dorothy Roberts was such an essential read for me because I did not. I had never linked all of these different instances in ways that, that we, as a country have controlled and oppressed the specifically the reproduction of black folks.

And so I think, you know, as someone who is a white person who white people will listen to, I think anytime I have the opportunity to talk about like the different ways that reproductive oppression has shown up historically, and also to lift up the amazing work of reproductive justice advocates and the black women who created the reproductive justice framework and really educate white people about what that is, because I really do think that's how we are all gonna get free. I really do.

I really do think that that framework and the way that it is so comprehensive, it touches every single injustice issue that we all want to tackle together. And so I feel like that's the work in part, the work that I can do in the body that I have to, you know, to help people see that abortion access is just one part of an agenda. It's also just one part of this anti of the white Christian nationalist agenda too. Yeah. I want fully, yes. Killing the black body similar.

I had like started to pull some of those threads together and when I finally read it, it was so great to just like, have it all like come together in one place and cannot recommend it highly enough. Honestly, if you're gonna be doing work in this moment , you it's really a foundational text that you should be reading. Yes . And, and thinking of your story, like, I , I think of those people who were there and , and who are using the, the black genocide language.

And I just, the other thing I think of is like, great. So how are you supporting the black community then? Are you out advocating for programs that are going to support these people for the programs they need? Are you out there making sure that Medicaid is covering everything? Like, are you doing things that are going to improve these black lives? You're saying you care about by fighting this black genocide. Yeah . And the generally, no . Right. So you can't use , it's just all so frustrating.

Like again, the like going back to the reproductive justice of it, right. You need to be supporting all of it to, because that is, like you said, the only way we're gonna get free and like thinking through like reproductive justice in the ways it touches on so many things. And yeah, I , I'm a really firm believer in like, we need to be thinking about all of the things together in order for us to move forward. That's absolutely right.

And as you were describing the protesters and , and your ideas of what they do when they're not protesting, I mean, we know as people who are in movement spaces, that we are often invited to go to protests and hold signs. And sometimes we do that and we know that that is not the actual work , those are moments to come together to be in community to send a message. But that is not the work.

The work happens, you know, in conversations like this and behind the scenes, you know, and I think for folks who think that's showing up and just being somewhere with a sign is doing any kind of justice work. I'm , I'm sorry to tell you . It's, it's really not . , it's an important part , but it's, it's where it begins. Definitely not where it ends . Okay . So we should probably think about wrapping up.

We would definitely be remiss if we didn't talk about like the ginormous elephant in the room, which is the impending Supreme court decision and dos . I , so again, we're recording this, the decision has not come down yet. It may change. And , uh, when it's released, so with all , with that caveat, where are you at right now? I know I'm stressed, but also glad we don't have a decision yet. Cuz it means people are still able to access care.

Where's your head at with all of this stuff, I've done so many interviews over the last month, month and a half about this. And you're asking it in a slightly different way. But one of the most common questions I get is how will this impact your work, this decision . And you know what I say to , to people in terms of the work is this really doesn't change the work because we have known that this was coming for a really long time and have been preparing for it.

And the way that we get out of this is a long road ahead. It's not gonna be a quick fix. There will be an urgency to making sure people get the care that they need. And I think on an emotional level, that is where my heart is hurting. The most is thinking about many, many people who are already suffering because of abortion bans and have suffered because of abortion bans for a long time. But the magnitude of that is gonna be something that you and I have not seen in our lifetimes.

And that is very sobering. And I also know that throughout all of time, people have done what they have needed to do to make sure people get the care that they need and that will continue to be true. And so I hold the hope of that because I just, I know the people that we work with and there are lots of people I don't know who have been, have been doing this kind of work on the ground.

And I'm so very grateful for them and want to offer whatever I can personally to make sure that people get the care that they need, because that is so essential to my call as a faith leader , to take care of people . And also just our call as human being who are in community with each other . Yeah. My goal is to keep all of those people in mind, but like maybe not the front of mind because that is paralyzing like my heart breaks.

When I think of all of the people who will not be able to access care, the people who already aren't able to access care. So that's why I do it. But like I can't, I can't focus on it because like, it just like shuts me down. Like it's one of those things that like, if I really like think about it, like that's it, that's all I can think about . And it's pretty paralyzing. I, I hear that.

And honestly, this is where for me, my spirituality is so important and I don't wanna participate in any kind of spiritual bypassing because the suffering is real. And it's something that we should all be feeling and asking, what am I being called to do in this moment to alleviate human suffering? I think that that should be a guiding question for all of us. And also as someone who feels deeply, I identify as an empath. Maybe you do too. Or if you're just a human being with a heart. Yeah .

We do feel in our bodies, what other people are feeling. And that can be, it can cause us to not be able to get out of bed in the morning. And there are days like that for me now. And I've also really tried to cultivate spiritual practices in my life where I remember that I can only do what I can do and ask every day , what is it that I need to do today to, to live into my calling and anything. That's not mine that I've taken on. I send back with a lot of love, you know, and just trust.

I just trust that I'm, I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing and tuning into that guidance each and every day, even if it feels like something that's so small, I'm so thankful that we are in community together. You , there are people like you and all your guests and all of our colleagues, we are all doing our part. And I have to remember that because there are days when it feels like the weight of the world is on our shoulders and that's real too. And the grief is real.

So honoring those feelings and then, you know, asking for help, I feel like I'm just constantly asking like the universe for help . You know , like , I dunno what I'm , this is a horrible situation . Please tell me what I'm supposed to do . And like make it so simple and easy that I can't miss .

It are my , so I talked about right , like what, like the , the freezing , yes, I am very much empathic like you, but what gives me strength and hope is this is a really freaking amazing community we're in. Yeah , there are so many wonderful people working so hard and they just give me so much hope and thinking like the Supreme court may make a terrible ruling. I mean, they're going to make a terrible ruling. It is not the end. It is .

I, my heart breaks for all of the people who are gonna be impacted by it, but the fight does not stop there. We will keep going. And there are so many amazing people that we are lucky enough to work with every day . And you know, so often if not every day , most days I am reminded of how amazing our community is. And that gives me the strength and the hope to keep going forward and keep fighting for all of the people. I agree. I agree.

And one of the things that I've appreciated about this time, which has been so very difficult, has been the receptivity to the message that I'm bringing. And my colleagues are bringing, especially around faith and abortion justice in particular, there are people who have not heard this before , who are hearing it for the first time that people of faith have always been engaged in the struggle for reproductive freedom in real ways .

And just being able to share that message on this podcast and with other audiences that gives me hope too, because we are gonna have more people who are paying attention, who understand finally what we've been saying for so long and they're gonna wanna join us. So if you're listening for the first time to this podcast or new to the movement, we are so glad to have you. We need you. And thank you. Thank you for joining cuz we we're really gonna need everybody. Oh my goodness.

What a perfect segue to our last thing, which is always, so what can these people do? We are grateful to have them with us. What, what actions can our audience take? Well, for one support, your local abortion fund is always the thing that I tell people to do. I'm sure that's an action item on most, most podcast episodes cuz that's yeah . One of the best ways to support your local community and the people who've been doing this work for a long time.

If you are someone who's interested in this intersection around faith and repro , I would love for you to visit the religious coalition for reproductive choice R crc.org and I'll name just quickly. Two things. One is if you are an abortion seeker or you know, someone who is going through an abortion experience or processing one, we have a site called abortions welcome. That's a spiritual companion site abortions welcome.org , which we developed with faith and women in Mississippi.

It's a pro-choice spiritual companion. And it also has accurate information if you are someone who's seeking abortion care. So I'd love for you visit that or share that . And also our religion and repro learning center is a wonderful place to get started. If you're wondering how the heck did we get here? How did this narrative around faith and abortion become what it is ?

We've got webinars, self-based courses and a resource library there that'll help you get oriented and also get equipped to do the kind of direct service that we were talking about earlier. So those are my lineups . And of course I would love for you to buy a copy of a complicated choice, which you can find anywhere. Please support your local bookstore or shop through bookshop.org to support local independent bookstores. Yes, and I definitely, I cannot recommend Katie's book enough.

Like I said, it is really beautiful and I couldn't, I honestly, I couldn't think of a better person to have written this book, Katie as always. It was a joy talking to you. Thank you so much for being here also. I don't think Katie mentioned it, but she also has her own podcast. I do . So you should definitely check out kindreds it is . I always enjoy listening to, to that podcast as well. Thank you Jenny, for that plug and with that. Thank you, Katie . Thank you, Jenny . I so appreciate you.

Okay . Y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Katie. I had a great time talking to her. She is just really, truly a wonderful person with that. Let's see if you have any questions or a topic you would like us to cover. Always feel free to reach out. Am met Jenny repos, fight back.com and that's Jenny with an IE, or you can reach out to us via social media at repos, fight back on Facebook and Twitter or repos FB on Instagram.

And unless something else major happens, I should see y'all in two weeks. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit us at our website at repos, fight back.com . You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter , repro, fight that . And on Instagram at repro FB , if you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and please rate and review us on apple podcast . Thanks for listening .