Welcome to repo's fight back a podcast where we explore all things, reproductive, health, rights, and justice. I'm your host, Jenny wetter. And I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex, education, and LGBTQ issues, and much, much more giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in. Hi, we rose. How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jenny wetter and my pronouns. Are she her?
So yeah , I'm really excited for today's episode and I'm gonna really just keep my intro short. I had the guests who was gonna come talk to you fall through, she had some flight issues and so we had to reschedule. And so she'll be back soon. Don't worry. You will have a great conversation with her coming up in the next couple episodes.
Don't worry, but I am so lucky to have a wonderful friend like Tara deman who stepped up and said she would help me make sure that we still got an episode to y'all today. So I had Tara come and help me do and ask me anything episode . So I guess with that, I will turn this episode over to Tara demand from amnesty. Hi Tara. Thank you so much for being here today.
Hello. Thank you for letting me temporarily take over your podcast. I know
I'm so excited. First. I will do this one, one Hosty thing and I'll hand it over. Do you wanna introduce yourself and include your pronouns and then it's all you?
Yeah, I would love to. My name is Tara deman . My pronouns are she her and I'm with amnesty international USA. And I'm really excited to be an interloper here and lead this great podcast. So today, welcome to res fight back and we are running an AMA, which isn't ask me anything, which I definitely had to look up because I am not cool. dunno, acronyms or the internet, but this is some of the questions that you are listeners sent in and wanna hear more about your Intrepid host.
So I will be kicking some questions to you, Jenny, are you ready?
I hope so.
Awesome. Let's
Do it.
Let's do this. So the first question I think is helpful for everyone, which is how are you preparing for the forthcoming SCOTUS ruling ?
So I guess I can't say like hiding under my bed and crying, like that's probably not helpful.
It might be real. I mean , if that's what you're doing , I have some suggestions , but the answer .
So like a number of things, definitely lots of rage donating mostly to abortion funds. Mm-hmm because yeah, they're gonna need the money. I just did my latest round to the row fund and Oklahoma cuz Oklahoma just has like a total abortion ban that went into effect. So that's a real problem and not just for Oklahoma, but like that's where everybody from tech or not everybody, but a lot of people from Texas were going to get their abortions. Mm-hmm so just again, things are gonna be really bad.
So I'm lucky in that I am able to donate mm-hmm so I have been doing donating. I also went on a spree of buying a bunch of fun abortion fund t-shirts this last weekend, which I didn't need, but I mean, honestly, do you ever not need them ? So I , and a bunch more of those, I have also been thinking about the things that, so like the things I'm preparing like for work, right?
Like making sure like all of our pressure releases already and like thinking about things that we need to talk about, like how is this gonna have an impact globally? Not just in the us , but also thinking about the podcast and like what topics or what things do we need to talk about on here that are gonna be helpful for other people.
So in that area, I'm thinking of like digital security, like what things should I be talking about for people who are in a state where abortion might get criminalized? Like what are things that they need to think about around digital security, if they're gonna go get an abortion. So I'm just trying to think of episodes. That would be helpful. Mm-hmm in , in ways that I can help out. So that's kind of where my head has been at. I'm sure you have some suggestions too. So what have you been doing
Well, let me first, I mean, let me first dig in a little bit to what you've been saying. So, you know, oftentimes I think when people , like, what are you doing? And, and like the first answer for lots of us is like donating into abortion funds, right? And I'm usually very wary of capitalistic solutions to systemic problems. And I would say if people have funds, this is a capitalistic problem as well, which is if you have funds to donate, please do.
And, and of course get your amazing abortion merch. And partly because of course it, it provides financial support to the abortion funds that are making these great t-shirts. But also because it is a way of showing your solidarity. And I was recently in Vermont wearing my, everybody loves somebody who has had an abortion t-shirt from N N a F .
And I had, I was stopped by like four or five older women in like somewhat discreet situations where someone would sort of come over and whisper like, oh yes, that's that's really, really good. Right. And this is like in a really, really liberal space. And the opposite example of that is I was wearing my abortion bands. T-shirt from TIFA down in Texas two months ago, I think.
And many, many people were like clearly just really glad to see someone supporting abortion and lots and lots of people in Texas support abortion. Right. So they were glad to see someone else supporting the thing. They also did, whether or not they have a t-shirt . Right. And, and so I think one of the ways to think about when you're wearing abortion merch is the way that we're trained to create solidarity and conversation with each other, as well as like give your money to abortion funds.
Absolutely. If you've got an extra dollar boy, make it, make it count, but
Like destigmatizing, like even just wearing a shirt that says abortion yeah . Is like big.
Yeah. So I think that's one of the things I'd think about too for , for all of us is like, what are the ways in which like, we are like, yes, donate your money. And like friends, we are in this for the long haul, we're gonna lose a lot and it's gonna be really tough. And we have to lay down the pavement before we can walk that road and win. So what are we doing to take care of each other? And what are we doing to take care of ourselves and what are we doing to connect to our community?
And like, sometimes it's as simple and dumb as wearing a abortion bands. T-shirt in Texas where loads and loads oftexans are fully in supporting human rights and abortion and can feel , I know that I feel that solidarity when I see other people wearing abortion gear out in the wild, right. Obviously at a protest, but like just out in the wild where I'm like, yes, my people, we outnumber them
Smile , like head nod or like, oh my God , I love your shirt.
So, so that's, I think a challenge for both of us who are, you know, obviously very professionalized in this work, but also then , um, like what are the ways that we're taking care of ourselves in our community long term ? And I think, and that's really tough in these moments of crises , right? So that, that's one of the , it's a plug for an abortion t-shirt or whatever merch and , and obviously in the safest space, that makes sense for you as a listener.
But, but thinking about the way that we're continuing that conversation. And I think, I think one of the challenges is like, and also like, where are those points of joy, right? Like that this is such like just a really time. And , and Jen , I never know if I swear on your podcast, I'll try and load it back. Your listeners are probably like, who is this clown? Yeah . That know mean talking
About abortion ban ,
I'm talking about abortion ban . So it it's appropriate. But like, this is such a time and you know, lots of your listeners won't be prepping, press releases because they don't work in an yeah . And then, then that's not their job. And I think one of the questions is how do we sustain ourselves in this moment? Which is also like, are you doing yoga? Are you taking care of yourself? Are you drinking lots of water?
And I mean, this like very like hydrate for God's sake, the abortion movement needs hydration. And like, what are the ways we're creating joy for each other? And it even in the , even in the face of immense loss, right? How are we creating joy for each other? So, so what have I been doing? I mean, I've been donating to abortion funds. I have been obviously work staff getting P running . We've been launching campaign tags. We've been coordinating with state base work.
I mean, prepping for the state work. And , and that's, that is a very tangible thing people can do is like, yeah , wherever, whatever state you live in, whether it's a quote unquote good state or a bad state, like who on the ground is doing that work in campaigning, like find out how you can be a , a part of that because that's, you can control right now. Like you can't control the Supreme court, but also like, how are you just taking care of our community? Right.
Which is how are we reaching out and checking in with each other? And, and not that it makes it better. It doesn't, it's really, really bad, but it, it makes it like we can survive this together and actually carve out pieces of joy. So, yeah . I mean, I've been, I've been struggling with obviously the trying to trying to create joy, but because there's so much we're gonna lose. Right. But like, I know that we will win.
It's just that we have to get through this and we have to do it together and, and we can only win together. Right. So, so in addition to donating and wearing abortion,
T-shirts
Like, same, like the exact top me of things. Like I've been trying to focus on things that I can control. And sometimes that's as simple as like, oh, the actual thing around the house I haven't gotten done in maybe two years that finally I'm like, I will put that shelf back up. Right.
Oh my God. I've totally . Yeah . Yeah. Cause
Like that's a way to actually exert control . And then also trying to think is what is one thing I can control in this space that we can't control the Supreme court. Right. But I can control checking out the like I'm basic , like you in DC and checking back in with the DC abortion fund and seeing what they need right now, or checking in, if you live outside of DC and your state, like, what is the movement going on there?
And today the one thing I did was check in on that, like, I didn't have to solve anything. I didn't have to, you know, but I , I checked in on that. So yeah. But it's been tough. I mean, as , as you know, which, I mean, this dovetails really well into the next question from listeners, which is there is so much happening right now. How are you dealing with burnout?
So this is like, I feel like always like complicated question, because burnout is like one of those things. It , there's not like a end. I mean, I'm sure at some point there is, but I don't feel it any time soon. I feel like last year I went through, I I'm hoping the worst of it. Lots of like crying for, I mean, for like the slightest reason, like you looked at me funny and like, right . I'm I'm like crying on zooms and yeah . Yeah . I'm hoping that was the worst of it.
But I also do worry a little bit. I, at the point where emotions are kind of dull, like yeah.
Yes. I, I worry about that.
I worry . I'm like, am , am I worse ? Like, is the , was like the crying, the good part. And like, now I'm like so much more burned out or if I'd gotten things more under control, I don't know . I'm not sure where that is. Mm-hmm but I know like when the Supreme court ruling came down, I was like, this really sucks. I'm mad, but I don't like feel mad. Mm-hmm and it's really hard. I don't know . It feels hard to explain, like everything just feels a little muffled.
No,
Yes . And that not good. Like I assume like I can't, that can't be good. Yeah.
I bet a lot of your listeners are listeners. Now that I'm a cohost for the day. Um, I had a lot of listeners. I mean, everything you said resonated so strongly with me, I feel like when the decision was leaked, I, I was shocked because we weren't expecting it to be least no , not , not shocked with the outcome.
I was having a perfectly pleasant, Monday Orly program , whatever.
Exactly. And I felt more than anything I felt empty. Yeah. And I felt like, I felt like a , a bit of a , like a Gollum , like a , like a terracotta pot. That's like it's. And that specifically all the water had been dumped out. And if you know anything about gardening, terracotta, seeps water, so , okay . Cause it's like a terrible way to plant things actually. And I felt so empty.
I remember thinking, I feel like a terracotta pot, which of course is a pun on my name I hadn't thought about, but like, I , I just like, I've been, I've just all the water's dumped out and I have nothing to give. Like I just like , I'd have this dullness to my voice when explaining when someone would call me, like, what is this? And I had to explain to our staff and I had to explain to families and friends that you are in different lines of work or, or not paying as close attention.
Which of course totally understandable. And I just felt dull and like dull like that, that illness . I think that look, you know, like not a medical doctor, but you there's a lot of research out there talking about how, like, we are not designed as bodies to take on the amount of trauma that we've been collectively experiencing over the last six years and, and particularly within of the pandemic.
But of course, like four years of, of real political violence being so present in, in the national daily life, which of course had been extremely present for a number of our community members and particularly black and brown people. But like, we're not, we're not equipped to deal with this much trauma. And I do wonder how much of this is a continuation of that, that impact.
But I , I do think it's, you know, I , I really appreciate you sharing that one cuz I feel the exact same and you and I haven't had a chance to talk lately , which is what sucks. But, but I , I would guess a lot of your listeners have the same thing.
And I, I think that these are also really classic symptoms of anxiety and depression, which to me having thought about this as you know, I thought, yeah, but like , it just feels super normal that in the face of like unspeakable horror, you would feel this way. Right . And that's, that's also true, but I , I do think it's a good plug for folks to be plugged into mental health professionals.
I, I think about that too, the way that this has sort of weighed on all of us living our normal mental health lives. Right. And that now it's a question of like it's normal to feel bad and empty, but it doesn't, you know, is that the way we have to live? And , and I don't know, you know , it's , that's deeply, deeply personal. And I think that like, it's not advice for folks, but I , I do wonder, and I wonder how you and I can think about that too.
Like what does it mean again, to wanna find joy in a really, really up world
So I'm trying to be proactive mm-hmm and know that things are like, June's gonna be bad. Right? Mm-hmm like , I know June's gonna be bad. So I am actually off next week and I am so like the week when y'all are listening to this, I am off. I will hopefully be staying off of social media. It's a curse. And sometimes you still go on, but I'm really going to make the effort to not be there. I have no plans. I don't, I don't have anything planned I'm going to do.
I am just going to do what makes my heart happy. And honestly, if that's nothing, it's nothing. And I'm looking forward to that, watching some bad TV, reading some lovely books, I , I just, that's where I'm at and I'm really looking forward to it.
And I think that unplugging there surely there's like an app for that, that you can be like, don't let me social media between the hours or whatever. Like the Internet's figured out a solution for itself. but like, yeah . But like unplugging is a central part of being plugged in. And I think for me, and again, I'd assume the last of your listeners that I can feel sometimes a guilt when I'm not like top of my game and like a hundred percent in the fight at this very moment. I need
To do all the things I need your ,
All the things all the time, or I personally, and I'm
A bad advocate. Yeah . I'm
A bad advocate. And like, I am the reason, you know, et cetera . Yeah . And like there's no small amount of Hubers there, but it's also, I think the guilt and the weight that all of us feel who are in this movement who care about this because of how important it is . It is natural than to feel that It's personal. And so how can people unplug, even at this, the most crucial moment, how can you take a breath so that you can breathe in so that you can come back to breathe out, right? Like, yeah .
Yeah, no, I'm really, really glad you're off next week. And I have a number of bad television. I will be sending you , you . Yes . Like so much. I have bad television is all I watch I , someone once ask , like, what was it? Do you watch like 20 there's something 24 , the Ham's tale. I was like, no, I watch cartoons. Like right . I watch like seriously
Serious , serious be through so much. Yeah.
Yeah . And it , for folks that can watch horror and like really serious, like good for you. That's great. I don't think that's anything bad, but my brain's like, Nope. like , we were dealing with that all day long. We're gonna watch some really like questionably written bad TV. where the joke is. How bad it's. Yeah . Maybe when this publishes we'll go back online.
Yeah. I mean, listen, the great British baking show can only do so much. Right. Like that really got me through a while . like , you know , you can tell when things are like bad, I'm like, I need to watch great British baking
Show. I mean, it is just like a , you know, Xanax to the soul, right. Like , yeah . And also it's, I think this is, I mean, again, not a mental health professional, like, but there's something to be said. I , I do this a lot where, when things feel the most outta control, I do something that is very physical, obviously not exercise, which would be healthy for me. And my doctor's like, please God exercise. And I'm like, okay , it's just not gonna happen.
But you know, like my heart rate is always the wrong weight or whatever, but like that, like I'll bake something and I know you baked a lot and like, or I'll fix something around the house or I'll build something or I'll go out into the garden, I'll do something with my power tools. Like I love power tools. I am my father's daughter. Like, but something that's really corporal because it's like so contained. Right. Whereas this is the fight of all and
Thing being done
And it's done. Yeah. And then when you bake that thing , I
Have this thing.
Yeah. And then you're like, and then I ate this thing. So I would strongly recommend, so all you listeners out there, what is one thing that you can do and you don't have to do it well, no , if you don't have to be a master knitter to knit something or a master baker, like do a thing that has an end point and then be like, I made this ohoh , it kinda sucks. Oh, well like , you know ? Yeah . Yeah . I mean this , the problem is Jenny , you have set the baking bar very high .
So we could, I do love the idea of next week when you're off of social in this points . Those of us that are still on going through and doing a bake off on your Twitter feed. Oh see all the great stuff. Like what are people doing to take care of themselves? I , I think that's actually, as you're listening to this podcast, like on Twitter, under the show, you know, what are you doing to take care of yourself?
Yeah. Because we need every single one of us in this fight, which means we need to be able to step out of this fight for a moment and take a breath.
Yes. And if you need to step away, step away. Cause I mean, it's not like, it's not just a saying this is a marathon, not a sprint. And like it's a really race too .
It's a really race . It is a bat
Race . Step away when you need pass , you're mad. Like it's the time
That's right. Pass me the Baton and I will pass it off and it's time for me. And then I'll come back in on the next, I don't know how relay do you come back in on relay racist ,
But this is a
Recurring relay race . Right? Like you pass the Baton so you can take a break and then someone else runs around and they'll pass it back to you. So yeah. It's a good metaphor. Cause it's really real.
Yeah. And like, you also need to know that you can't do all the things, right? Yeah . Like I have really figured out over the last several years that like big crowd based things mm-hmm give me anxiety. Mm-hmm I went to the March for our lives and started to have like a mini panic attack. Like I was fine until I wasn't. Right . And I needed to be out of there and I couldn't get out of there very easily.
Mm-hmm if you were there, like it was mm-hmm there weren't easy exits mm-hmm and I just can't do that to myself anymore. So like, I always feel guilty for not going to like marches, but I'm like, it is not good for me, so I need to do other things and like, so finding what your things are that are, that make you happy and like that you like doing are the things that are good to do.
Yeah. And also like there's too many cooks in the kitchen, you know, a restaurant needs lots of different types of workers. You need someone at the front, you need someone who cleans. You need someone who cooks. You need someone who eats, like, you know, you need all those things and that's the same at the movement. Right. So yeah. I mean, short , I find those, those really invigorating and that I'm tired in cranky, but you know , that's, that's not the only way.
That's just a very visible way to make change and it can be very cathartic, but it's it's I
Like the small things at the Supreme court. Yeah . Cause like it's the smaller crowd mm-hmm and like that I feel that one is, has been better for me doing those. I haven't done it since the pandemic, but
I think, well, yeah, gosh, the plague. Right. I think the other thing is right. There's things that feel like they're the right thing, cuz they're very visible and I , yeah . One of the questions right. Is like, what can you do right now? And it might not be the thing that hits the photo on the paper. And for those of us that are based in DC, like that is where the photo gets taken right at the court. You're like, oh, I should have been there.
It's like, or not, you should have been calling your auntie to have that conversation that, you know, they've been putting off or like talking to someone who needed the mental health break together to talk to how hard it is or like taking your own break because you need to be ready for the movement. Right. Like, so those are really visible. And obviously they're like really Instagramable to prove like, don't worry. I did my, I got my merit badge. Yeah . I did my like abortion merit badge today.
But like, yeah, the , the movement needs accountants too. Y'all like, you know, do do the thing, do the thing that you can do and that , and we need that thing. Yeah , yeah. That , you know, so gosh, just one out of the questions that's also from the AMA and is really related, is like, what is it that made you so passionate about this issue when you're thinking about the tactics that now are really are life giving to you, but like what is it about this issue that made you wanna get involved?
I mean, did you always wanna be involved in reproductive
Rights? Oh my God. No. If you were to like go talk to like little, little Jenny and were like, you're gonna be like working on abortion or whatever. So a little Catholic school, Jenny , would've definitely been like, what I dunno about that, but, but I also can like trace it back to there. So like, I , I always say that like, I didn't have like a big aha moment mm-hmm but there were like seeds planted, like throughout mm-hmm my life.
So one and I feel like I tell this story a lot, but it really was big to me for like a number of reasons. And again, I went to Catholic school and a girl in my class asked me if I wanted to go with her to go to Madison to go save babies. Mm . And I was like, I mean, yeah, obviously like I would love to go save babies mm-hmm and like going home and like, Hey mom, can I go with so and so to go to Madison and save babies and her being like she did in a very , I found very important way.
She didn't tell me like, this is what you should think, or that is wrong. She really sat me down and was like, well, have you thought about what about this situation? Or what about this? What if this is happening? Or she just like gave me a fuller picture and then said, if you still wanna go, you can go. And she gave me the agency to make my own choices with more information. And that was ground changing, not just for planning, repro, proceeds, but like for life. Right.
Like learn more about the issue and then make up your own mind. And I know so many people who weren't raised that way. Right. Mm-hmm like , this is what you should think. And like, to me, that was just like really groundbreaking that that's how my mom approached it. Yeah . And like, I remember talking to her later and being like, this was like so important to me. And she's like, I don't , I don't re I don't know what you're talking about.
So to her , it was just like another day, but it really stuck with me. Like I can picture sitting at the , in like in the sunroom at the counter. Like I , I can see it. Right. It's so funny. And then again, Catholic school . So I had sex ed from a nun who , um, as you can imagine, was very education about sex ed. Right .
Super fact based .
Yeah. Super fact based like, I , I really, I always just say I had the mean girls sex ed education, right? Like, you're gonna have sex, you're gonna get this horrible disease and you're gonna die. And so again like that did not make me, like it go all in on repro. And it's just like things that came back later when I started getting more involved and being like, I don't want anybody to get that education I had mm-hmm like, it did not prepare me for life later. Like that is terrible.
Let's make sure that this doesn't happen to anybody else. And then just like all of a sudden it was just like the passion and fire just exploded. But yeah, if you were like to go back and tell younger me, like, I could never imagine that this would be what I'm doing for a number of reasons. Like , I couldn't imagine myself talking on a microphone about something. Cause like that's not my jam either, but mm-hmm , , it's something I really have found. I really enjoy doing.
Yeah. I grew up in a really conservative town too in a rural , a rural space. We grew up in California. Yeah . But like in a really rural, really rural town and my parents were the only Democrats in town and they weren't like particularly hyper progressive, but you know, comparatively and I Don know that there was really an aha moment either. Right. You just, yeah . At some point you're just like, yeah. Do you gotta do this work? There's no women's liberation without this.
Unless there no L LGBT equality without this there's no racial equity without this. Right. Like,
Like it just was like baked in. Right? Yeah . Like my mom was like really in, and I'm sure you had this in a similar way, but like, my mom was very much into service and like, she served on a lot of boards and did a lot of volunteering. So like, it was just like baked in. And so, like I said, not an aha moment, but like things that happened that like triggered like, yeah, no, this is not cool.
So like I had a roommate in college who was very conservative and part of like a really conservative religion . And so was very like outspoken on like being pro-life and anti-gay and all these things. And like,
Mm-hmm ,
Just being like, whoa, whoa , whoa, whoa . Not cool. Not okay. And like, but it wouldn't , wasn't something that like I had like the aha moment. It was just like that pushback right away. I don't know .
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, thinking about human rights more broadly, which I was doing sort of earlier, there was just a moment where it's like, you can't do any, you can't have any of this without abortion. You can't. Yeah . None of this happens without abortion and that's true for a number of intersectional issues. Right. But I, I think it's like a , I mean, as a CIS woman also thinking, what does it mean to have equality in this world? And what does equity look like?
And you know, and those were , those are big thoughts for some , you know, in college they feel like gigantic thoughts. Right ? No one's ever thought this that way.
Right . Never .
Yes . And now it's like these 12 year olds are like, yeah, obviously do . And I , I think that was a big turning point for me is I was really focused in, on women's rights work and, and sort of like a broad version of it. I do remember though , when I was, this one was really gonna date me, probably your listeners are much younger and cooler, but I was, I , it was really young. It must have been like eight and we were going to a political rally and it was in Fresno.
I grew up outside of Fresno and it was, my mom went, it was like, it was for the democratic candidate and oh gosh, I'll have to think of the year. And my mom went and there were people outside with those signs of like dismembered fetuses.
Oh
Yes. And my mom is like five foot. She's like, she's actually like four 11. She likes to say she's five foot she's not
Remember being about my height.
Yeah. Yeah. She's four 11 . And she lost her. Like she lost. She just was like, how dare you? It was the Michael Duka rally, which will not resonate for loads of people who are under 40. But , um , Michael Duka R I P that campaign who was a democratic, who lost to Georgia HW Bush , Georgia , B Bush's father. And my mom just like went , she doesn't nuts.
I mean, and I, my, I knew that she was pro-choice, which is how she would've said it then, but it wasn't something that she was like hyper passionate about. And then she , she was just like, no, these are lies. Like these are lies and how dare you. And I remember being like, well, whatever's gotten her that fired up. I should probably figure this out. um , and then they came and like picketed our school too . We , we lived in this really rural town.
It could go up in an extremely rural space, like 30 miles, even more like two , the closest city, which was Fresno. Fresno . Yes . And in town with about a thousand people. Oh, I feel , yeah . Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, so I , I often say I grew up in the Midwest of California and the folks with those big signs, the dismembered Fe of signs came to our school and we lived in the , the house right across from the high school. Like we're the one intersection in town and like there .
And then my dad also, oh , I love it . The one intersection, we were literal one intersection in town.
I mean, I didn't live in the town where I went to high school, but I relate to that. Yeah . Cause that's what that was. Yeah .
Like small town and like people have extremely strong heart beliefs around abortion and mostly most people opposed abortion on deeply religious grounds that I knew. And I, you know, growing up, I like, yeah, feel , I don't know , abortion feels wrong that right . You know, but then these people came with these signs. I'm like, oh no, they're they're lunatic. Right.
And then the more you learn, you're like, oh, this, this debate has been co-opted and this nothing I sort of thought about this was right. So yeah . Again, yeah . Not like an aha moment, but, but then you get here and you're like, I can't, there's no way that you can't not do this. Right. It's a , yeah . Nothing that I want in this world to be is happens without abortion. I think that's been a really interesting journey for me.
You know, always you're supposed to do these visions, which is like, what's the world you want to be. And if , if folks that are listening, work in nonprofit , that's supposed to be the like thing you pitch to people, not the like things that are wrong. And all I am is like driven by intense fire hatred for the things that are wrong. Like, and just like, yes , the , the sun , no , the fire of a thousand sons of, of hate. And which is like such a one ,
Which is obviously why we're friends, which is
Why we're friends. And it's also like every mental health professional in the world is probably like, please, no . So like what's the world we wanna live in. Right. And like, what's the world we want it to be. And those that's the vision. Like none of that happens without abortion. And now it's just like so obvious, it feels like so obvious that we do this work. Right. But it's so funny that you and I have had such parallel, parallel journey. I know. Right.
What's, you know, what's something when you've been doing this work in the variations that you've done it, but like, what's something you're really proud of having achieved.
So what this podcast like , like just in its entirety, like I am inherently pretty introverted. I mean, I'm very introverted. I like, I, so like the thought of doing something like this was a little terrifying and I definitely rejected it when it came up. Mm-hmm , but I overcame all that and, and I'm doing it. And so like, that's pretty amazing in and of itself. But I was terrified this year. We did an episode talking about intimate partner violence. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm , how it's a repro issue.
And I was so nervous to talk about it on there. Talk about my experience with it. I really feel very lucky that I interviewed Monica Edwards for that. Like, she, I think together we found the strength to like tell our stories and like have a really, I mean, not light, but like not feel the stress of it in the moment, like telling each other the stories.
And like, we ended up talking a long time after about a number of things and, and like, that really helped, but like the thought of like, when , when it came time to like push publish, like I just like really nervous again. And I'm just like really proud of myself cuz like that was like the first time I really talked about it other than like kind of a really just Lansing reference.
Mm-hmm maybe a little bit, you know, I, like I said, I'm inherently introverted and I , I let people in, but like, you know, maybe there's like a , a bit of a wall of like mm-hmm
You're to here. Right . And so it felt like opening it a little further and like being more open, which I thought was a big step.
Well, and like to the worldwide web yeah . As the young folks call it the worldwide web, I mean like that's everybody, right? Yeah. No, I, that episode was so powerful and so good. I mean all the episodes are so, so good. I think that, you know, it can be very abstract when we talk about these issues. Yeah . Especially if you work in law policy and we're trying to like, you know, we're trying to change law policy and code and all these kinda like really technical, nerdy things.
And like, as I adjust my glasses and I'm like, lemme tell you about the , you know, the following treaties that we're violating, which again, I'm a hundred percent gonna do that I'm
Telling , but also yes. Yeah. But
Also yes, but like, you know, at the end, this matters because like we all deserve
To live like about the people, right.
Dignity . Yeah. Like at the end it matters cuz we're humans that have human experiences and it , and it's so powerful. It's very generous .
And I think it ties back to like the burnout, right? Like it's easy to focus on the policies and things. Mm-hmm because if I think about the people, like that's when I talked about like being really numb around SCOTUS . But when I started to think about like all of the people who aren't gonna get access to abortion that they need, like that's when I started to cry. And so like I can't focus mm-hmm on the people because that's the part that just like utterly will break my heart.
I need to think of the policy changes. Yeah . That need to happen to ensure that the people get the services they need. And so, but it is really important to bring it back to like that personal level, because that's why it's important. Right. But it's, it's hard to focus on that cuz like that's the part I feel like that just it'll break me man .
Yeah. Well, cause it's , it's devastating. Yeah . Right . It's devastating. Yeah. I , I feel that, I think that like, you know, I think one of it's also like how do we find again? Like, man, all I'm doing is talking about joy. I feel like Oprah for like 40 billion , less, less , less wealthy, obviously but otherwise we're the exact same . Well it's like I get a
Card . Oh my God .
Yeah . You get a card . You I've gotta use Tupperware if you want it. it's it's got some spaghetti stains on it. I'm so sorry . It's not great .
Like, you know, this is a dark time in the world and it's a tough time. It's certainly one of definitely the , one of the darker timelines I've been in this multiverse, called America in terms of this, you know, moment. But we, this country's had lots and lots of dark times obviously, but like things are hard and they're really bad and they're really.
And like we can't pretend they're not, but what we can do is still find joy in connection and like, you know, and do these really hard things together, joyfully and there's a real privilege. I mean, there's certainly a real privilege to being able to professionalize that work and do that from nine to five or in, you know, in DC from 10 to eight whatever might be . Right . But like no one comes in real early, but we don't roll home early either.
But you know, so there's a real privilege there, but it's also partly because it's like, it's a privilege to do hard things with friends, Paul Farmer. Right. Who was the position physicians and health PIH . That was yeah . Yeah . I , I don't work that much in sort of global health partners in health partners in health. Thank you. Partners in health who started that organization? They do a load of like targeting the most underserved spaces for healthcare and globally.
And he founded this, I don't know , way back when, and, and recently passed away the last couple of months, somewhat early. He was like, in his sixties, it was real shock for the global health community. And, and one of his quotes, I was really moved by, you know, they , he talked, he'd been interviewed a number of times with like, how do you stay hopeful and blah, blah, blah. And, and he was just like, it's, it's a pleasure to do this work. Like it is to be able to do hard things with friends.
Right. Which doesn't mean like the thing is not really crummy that you're doing, which is like in , you know, looking at the like devastating impact of colonialism on, on like healthcare in Haiti. Right. But, but like to do hard things with friends, you know, that that's where that's, that's a pleasure. Like it's actually fun. It's good. And feels sometimes guilty and this
Community is amazing .
Yeah. Like this community's amazing. And like, yeah, we're gonna do , we're gonna do really hard things. And we wish we didn't have to, it'd be so much better if we could just go do anything else. Cause this was taken care of. But like we have the privilege of, of being together in this together , whether you're professional or not. Right. We, we will do hard things together. And that is fun. That is interesting. Yes . So yeah, no, that was a , that was a really powerful episode.
And, and partly cuz it is about doing hard things together, having that conversation together. Right. Yeah. You know, you've talked about on the podcast, thinking of other episodes and, and also sort of dovetailing on the question, what you're proud of. You've talked about imposter syndrome a couple of times and I'm wondering what advice you have for, I don't know, let's say the random listener out there also known as myself who like, how do we get better at not feeling like a fake?
So this is like, like transparency of like, I really struggle with this one, but I also feel like, again, I'll take this back to my conversation with Monica and like when we were talking after the interview, so the part y'all, didn't hear, we were talking about like the voice in your head and I'm like, I don't understand like my imposter syndrome, like my parents didn't raise me that way. And I'm like, I just don't understand where it comes from. I'm like, holy.
Is that where that voice is coming from? From like the person who kept saying I wasn't good enough. And like all of those things that it has now become my internal mono that I always refer to it as the Statler in Waldorf, in my head . And some of y'all may too young for that . But like that's for the Muppet. Right ? Like I just feel like there are like , they're constantly in my head. Yeah . And so I, for a lot of it I've run like mitigation strategies around it.
Like I just try to not give them space. So one of the things is like the podcast, like that's like the one where I can think of like the clearest strategies, like I've come across to deal with. It is after I get done recording this with Tara, I will have the little voice in my head being like you said this wrong, you should have said this better. And like, you sounded stupid or like , what are you doing ? You don't know what you're talking about . And so I don't re-listen right.
Mm-hmm because all I will hear like Tara and I had this amazing, lovely conversation and I will hear like, oh, but did you hear like this two second clip? Mm-hmm where you sounded like an idiot. Like, and that'll just like replay in my head. So like my coping strategy is to like, not give it space. So I won't re-listen unless I have to for like editing mm-hmm , where I need to tell my editor that there's like a chunk we need to cut or something. So I try to not give it space.
And I really just try not to listen to it. It's hard and it's hard. And like, I also find it hard cuz I feel like I work with so many amazing advocates like Tara included and I hear them talking about things and I'm just like, y'all are so talented and so smart. And I am not that person. I feel like I , what every single one of us is thinking. And , and I think that's the important thing, which is why I try to keep talking about it because I'm sure that some people feel that way about me.
Like I may , I may never get to that point, but like for sure, I'm sure that way to some people. And so like, we all are impressed by these amazing people we are surrounded with and find that intimidating and that feeds the voice. So like I really just try to do what I can to not give it space mm-hmm and that has for most, the part has been pretty successful.
And then I've also learned, I think, I can't remember if I talked about this on the podcast or not, but I have a really hard time with the word expert. It does not resonate with me. I cringe from it when someone's like, you're a repro expert. I'm like, no, I'm not mm-hmm like, I really have a hard time with that. And it's, and it's really like that word.
So I, I had some coaching around podcasting and I , and I came up with that cause like you're a podcast expert and I'm like , no , I'm a podcast expert . Like I have this podcast, but I'm not an expert. And like really it's like the word . So we were like looking up on this . Thisor like other options. And like, it really seems to be like just the word expert. Like that makes me cringe.
So we came up with I'm a reproductive health and rights Maven and I, I love the word I love Maven and that one doesn't give me a full body cringe.
I think, you know the question with expertise, right? Like, and it came from academia before it came from DC and like expertise is this like heavily guarded word of like white male affirmation. And like, so like I think one of the things I've when I've thought that like, oh, am I an expert in X, Y , Z , right. Is like, well, first of all, like literate write down who is the expert then ? Like not like a person, but like what would it be to me to have this expertise to you?
And cuz if , if you think like it's only like 50 years of experience in the field, then it's like one woman and she's 80. Right, right. Like that's the only expert in this. Right. So, so one of the things is like, what are we thinking about? Who makes an expert and then like, and who told us that's what expertise means. Right. And how is that guarded? So that's what I mean, that's like a highly academic exercise as an extremely nerdy exercise.
And the way I think about when I with imposter syndrome is like, I don't know how to like train myself to not feel a certain way, but what I can do is say like what, like white man is benefiting from me thinking this, like what, who is benefiting when I think about this and it's not like, it's not people like, you know , who , who are also thinking that they're imposters.
Right. Right.
And like, I think that that's the question, like who benefits from, from me being like, oh, well not next , blah , blah , blah , blah . Right? Or like, oh this is, you know, if not, I, there was , you know, it's true about everyone else, but oh, but not me though. Not me though. Right? Yeah . Right. And , and like, I'm like, oh yeah. Who that's, that's been sold to us.
And that's been sold to us like in , particularly in professional spaces , by men and now like, and I think there are women that will do that now too. And which is just really disappointing. My white women get your together. But like those types of rarefied species , like the question is like, who benefits if you say that? Whether or not is true. Cause I'm like , I don't know . Am I an imposter ? I have no idea. What does it mean to be an imposter ? Like sure.
But whether or not like, what does it mean that that's what the definition meets and like who got to define that? So yeah. I don't know how to like, not have that thought except for to think like, this is just not useful.
No
Is not useful.
And, and I'm trying to not let it hold me back. Right. So like when it comes to like thinking of like looking at a job that I might apply for or something and being like, I'm not qualified for that. What do you mean? Like, don't just sell yourself short mm-hmm like, if you're like utterly unqualified, like that's one thing. But like if it's like studies about
That right . Margin , there's loads of studies about who applies for what? Depending on their identity, both their gender and their race identity. And like for, you know, this is gonna in a shocking turn of events. like , women will not apply unless they meet like 95% of things listed on the thing. Whereas men will apply if they meet 50 and then it also splits among racial lines too. Right. So like, yeah. Who who's benefiting when we're like, I shouldn't apply for that .
I only meet like 78% of the things . There's the one thing I don't meet. Right? Yeah. You, this is everyone listening. You are good for that job. Go do it.
Just do it. And like , do what's the worst that happens.
They don't interview you. Right. Or you do it and you fail like, okay ,
Next
I failed at loads of things , you gotta pay your rent , but that's like, you know , figure that part out. Yeah. No, no. That's, , that's true. I, you know, one of these things is like, it doesn't go away. Right. I think that like, and you read, I don't tend to read sort of memoirs. I find it as sort of a genre, but you know, you read memoirs of people that you think, oh, this person for sure has its together . Not be an imposter. This , this person. That's what I mean.
When I , when I say someone's not an imposter, this person, you read the book and they're just like, I'm a total imposter. You're like, oh, okay. So that's just made
Up . This is definitely a, you fake it until you make it. Like you just keep telling yeah . You just like fine. Keep telling yourself you're faking it and keep doing it.
Faking it is the making it. Yeah. That's what there is every once in a while, I'll think, okay , I need the person who actually does this. And then you look around and that person does not exist. You're like, oh, I am that person. Okay . Well I wish I felt a little more like an adult. I mean like I'm in my mid forties and I'm still, like, I just thought being an adult would feel a lot more adulty
I thought I was supposed to know what I was doing now.
I thought , yeah. And now I think back to my parents and their , you know, at their age and I'm like, oh my God, they had no idea because when you're a kid, you think, oh , they like parents. Really? They know all you disagree with them . Obviously, you , you like, think they're wrong, but they've got it figured out. Yeah . They just have the wrong answer to whatever you wanna be doing. And now I'm like, oh no, they had no idea .
Like , and my mom was like, yeah , we have no idea what we're doing. Why did you think that? I was like, I thought adults.
That's why you were ,
That's why you're an adult.
Like , there was one day where all of a sudden I was going to become this magical person and
Adult . Yeah . Today you are a woman. Yeah . My , and
She'll know all the things . Oh .
And I'll know other things. Yeah, no, I , um , it is uh , good news, everybody out there. No one really know there is no mold. You can do it. You'll be great. You , this podcast has been such a joy. I mean, it's so such a joy for the movement, such a joy for me. And so many listeners. What are things that you listen to? Not your own. I , yeah, I would never , gosh , I can't listen to my own voice. Partly cause
It's like ,
I can hear my mother. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, oh my God, my mother's coming right outta my mouth whom I love, but did not want to sound like
Yes.
So, so when , when , other than this podcast or the other good podcasts.
Yeah , yeah . I listen to so many podcasts. So I'll just like do a couple that I love, I really love maintenance phase with Michael Hobbs and Avory Gordon. It's like, I would say like , almost like the anti wellness podcast, it's like debunking, like BMI is total. And this is why here's all this data for why it's wrong. And like goes after like diets. There's like an amazing Dr . Oz episode.
Like, oh my God, what a quack ?
Uh , yeah. So like amazing. I love that podcast. I also love you're wrong about , which is like the same, but like about that different, right? Like it's more pop culture moments . I would say the one I just listened to today was about the McDonald's hot coffee case. And like, why, like what people know about it is like,
It's like totally wrong is
Totally wrong. And like this woman was like seriously, seriously injured. And it became like this joke of like, well, duh , of course coffee's hot, but it was like
No
Way beyond . It was like almost boiling
My mom. Tell me all about this. Yeah . So I don't listen to that podcast, but my mom does, which is the same as listening to that podcast. Right .
style of that. Okay . I'm like gonna have another recommendation. So cancel me daddy with Caitlin burns and Oliver, Ash Klein burned and our Ash Kline , they take on cancel culture and like, why it's
Such
A joke and like, what are y'all talking about anyway, this week's episode?
Cause no one's been canceled and they all , so
They talk about the , the cancel Grif economy, which is amazing. But this week's episode reached a special place for me. It had funny enough, the host of like both of these other podcasts. I just talked about Michael Hobbs on it, talking about the trial, which I have been avoiding, like the plague . Oh , this
Has been crazy . I mean, the amount that this society hates women is out .
So he really takes on
Like , it is outta this world.
Y'all this is like the most clear cut case of abuse, like the most well documented. And like, if you read the like British court case , which he did, like, he's like, anyway, it was just like really great. I, for like health reason , like just mental health reasons have like checked out. I can't follow it, but I have been shocked by some of the things I've seen, people that I know, like post on social. And I'm just like, really all ,
Like, it's like an international gas lighting.
It leads into like a couple things of like, the people don't really understand intimate partner violence and like all the ways it expresses itself. And like , mm-hmm , the whole range of it. Mm-hmm and misogyny. Like , it's just like this like crash course in all of it at the same time . So I really love that. And then ,
Yeah, let me pause for two reasons . One so that if your listeners are wondering, like, do I understand what intimate partner violence is? Do I like, am I in a situation that I maybe didn't think was intimate partner violence? Because it didn't fit some like really clear cut definition I had in my mind. I just wanna remind people that they can call the national DV hotline anytime at 1 807 9 9 7 2 3 3 , to talk with someone confidentially, whether or not you think right in this moment.
Oh, it's not that bad . Not that bad . So just , yeah , it's not , it's not this thing, which is clearly DV . So it's not . Thank you .
I appreciate
That from remind people that like it is out there. Talk ,
Talk ,
There's
Chat on their website,
There's chat super easy and like get some more information. And also, so that you have more information about what you might be seeing and , and other people and , and how you can support Jenny . These are all extremely educational podcasts. And I am, I've got to say,
Okay , so then the next one I was gonna say was , um, how did this get made? I love that podcast. Yes . Uh , yes, no, that makes me super happy. And then you must remember this by Korean Longworth. I grew up watching like a lot of old Hollywood movies. Cause that is my mother's jam. Like if there is a carry grant movie, mm-hmm , I'm sure I had seen it. That it is like her favorite. I was joking when I came back from being in Wisconsin at Christmas time that I forgot that movies came in color .
So , uh , I really love the , you must remember this podcast, which looks at old Hollywood. I mean, although right now she is looking at sex in the eighties. So it's sex on screen in the eighties also very on brand . Yes .
How did you get made is a podcast where they look at movies that are like so absurd and then they just talk about them being like, how did this happen? And it's amazing. It is so
Hilarious. It's so funny .
Our like our pop culture is yeah .
I love that podcast . They're all so funny . I guess I'll stop there. Yeah .
It's important . It's important to have outlets. I mean, it's important to learn. It's always important to learn. Everybody, go keep learning and it's important to have good outlets where you can actually just laugh your head off at like a
Really bad. And some people are like so bad. I'm like, well now do I need to see this? Because like, it sounds like horribly terrible for
Sure . And we should , like, we should do a viewing party actually together when we're feeling like when the caseload is down or we'll do it outside, like the, in these COVID dimes and then like , do it , listen to the thing and then do a screen
That be fun with dinosaurs that I've just been like , what is ,
And you're there Bonker and you think to yourself, this can't possibly get made. And then you remember every David Hasselhoff movie mm-hmm so yeah, highly recommend. I am much less Aite in my podcasting. I , I don't listen to a ton of podcasts. I listen to yours and I listen to dear Hank and John , which is, oh yeah , yeah . John Hank green. I , yeah. Which is also funny and very sweet. It's like, it's about as sincere as I get ever in terms of like national sincerity.
But I love gays at the national parks, G a C at the national parks, which is a podcast, which I always thought was G a Y S the national parks, cuz that is also its brand. But if , if anyone even has a passing love of national parks , this is a great podcast. And then I listen to like a star Trek
Podcast .
Yeah's it's now , which makes me really sad cuz I know there's an end. I got it really late. Like it's it's older. But like, yeah. I , I love it. Like , so this is again, I would come home when I watch cartoons and I'm like, no, no, you
Need to unplug fun . I haven't started it yet. But I've been like, I was thinking I wanted to do a rewatch of true blood, which I never finished, but I was like, it
Got
Weird. And so I didn't do it. And so, but there's now a true blood podcast with the woman who played Pam and the woman who played Jessica. And I was like, oh my God, this sounds like something I would love to like watch an episode, listen to the podcast.
That's I watched so true blood at the beginning and it's got so intense. I was like,
Yeah , it got a little wild . And I was like, and I think I'm gonna check out now.
Yeah. Like again, I'm not people if people like it a great, but I was like, holy moly , this is getting too crazy. I think part of that's age , right . I'm just aging out of anything sharp edge these days. But I li the other thing I love if you've never listened to pump that right . In my brain, especially if I'm tra well , you know, like COVID , haven't done a load, but like I used to listen that all the time on planes.
Cause you , first of all , you put your , how earphones in you're like, please don't talk to me. This is the universal sign who don't talk to me. Yes. And then like his, he just like, the stories are so good that he chooses. And of course his voice is just so wonderful. He's such a good narrator. So another good podcast to recommend to vote .
Yeah. I also listen to this one, go
Go of these .
Like I love like having podcasts, like playing one . So I I've used that for that mm-hmm and then there's one called sleep with me. That is like nice . Basically a guy gets on Mike and he'll like, recap, he's done like star Trek episodes. Or he did like some Dr . Who episodes and he is just like talk and wanders and rambles. He's just like ,
He's got that sort of sweet little .
So that is the delightful for like trying to fall asleep podcast.
I mean, these are good wrecks for everyone. Movement . Stay hydrated, stay, stay joyful, take some time off Jenny. It has been such a joy to be able to talk with you. One of the major, obviously just for everyone's life is the inability to sort of get together in person. And so I'm missing you, even though we actually worked very close. I'm building for like two blocks away.
But, but it's so good to talk to you and I'm just so excited to be on your podcast and be able to like take the re so that you can actually tell us more instead of being the great interviewer, the great interviewee.
Well , Tara , thank you so much for doing this. I had so much fun talking to you . I mean, as we always do and I cannot wait to have you back on soon, cuz y'all just released a new report that I will have you come and talk all about cuz it is super important.
Oh yeah. So that is yeah. We'll everybody grab a glass of water, everyone and some snacks and then, and have listen to a good light podcast because then we'll talk about, you know, the sort of serious situation facing indigenous women here in the us . But, but there's always something people can do. Right. And that's that's the other thing is like you learn and then you think, whoa , that's the most screwed up thing I've ever heard in my life. Exactly .
And then you take action and you do the thing . So speaking of the most screwed up thing we've ever heard in our lives, everybody. Yeah . Stay safe, stay safe . Thank you . Drink more water. Brace yourself. We're all in it in the long haul. This is our life's work.
We will get through this. We'll get
Through this. Yeah. Thanks so much, Jenny . Thank you everyone. Who's listening. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast that you shared on social media. Um , and that you come back here . My we'll see you then.
Okay . Y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Tara. I am so, so grateful for her to do this. I really, really appreciate it. She is just the absolute best. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you . Thank you . Thank you Tara. With that. If you have anything you would like us to cover or if you have any questions, you can always shoot me an [email protected] or you can find us on social media at repro fi back on Facebook and Twitter or repo's FB on Instagram.
Otherwise I will see y'all in two weeks for more information, including show notes. From this episode and previous episodes, please visit us at our website at repro, fight back.com . You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at repro fight back and on Instagram at repro FB . If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and please rate and review us on apple podcast. Thanks for listening.