Terraforming Mars

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Replayable. We'll be going to depth on our favorite tabletop games that keep us coming back again and again. I'm the start player Todd, and today I'm joined by Al and Paul. For our 27th episode, we will be adventuring on the Red Planet with Terraforming Mars. It was designed by Jacob Fryxelius and was originally released by Fryxelius Games in 2016 and later by Stronghold Games, with artwork by Isaac Fryxelius and Daniel Fryxelius.

Are you two gentlemen ready to get yourselves to Mars? - Absolutely. - I got five kids to feed. (laughing) Then Terraforming Mars players take on the role of corporations competing to transform Mars into a habitable planet. Initiate huge projects to raise the temperature, the oxygen level and the ocean coverage until the environment is habitable. Balancing production efficiency with ecological sustainability is the key to success.

The player who contributes the most to the Terraforming effort emerges victorious. Paul, you won our last game of Terraforming Mars, so you get to go first. What was your introduction to this game? - Honestly, I think it was Al. I believe he told me, "Hey, I got this new game about Mars, it's really cool. " And so I went over to his place and we played my very first game of it, just one on one. - I'm sure he kicked my butt.

- I have no recollection of what happened other than I was thoroughly confused and I think it took us over three hours. - Yeah. - There's just a lot to unpack the first time through. - It was a great game. - So Al, was that the first time you had played it as well or A, do you played it a little solo in preparation? - No, that was actually the first time I actually played it. I had fondled the pieces a little bit to get ready for the game. I was beyond excited when Paul came over to play.

- All right, so what do you like best about the game Al? - I think I'm gonna go with the theme. The theme is the thing that drew me to the game. The actual beauty of the game has kept me coming back, but I'm gonna say the theme is first and foremost in my mind when I play it. - And that theme resonates with you because this is the first time the audience has met you. So tell us a little bit about yourself. - Well, I'm a bit of a rocket geek.

I've been following rockets since I was, I think I was four when my parents took me to see the Apollo 11 launch near Cape Canaveral. So ever since then I was glued to the TV every time anything space or space exploration has come up. So I would say that's my biggest draw is space exploration is where humanity needs to go to make sure that we continue on as a species. - Right. - Paul, what do you like best about the game? - The same. You know, I actually work in space right now.

I help build and test satellites and. - Let's just clarify something. You are not in space. You work in the space industry. - That's how we in the biz say it. (laughs) - Okay. - Paul in spaaaaace! - Like people who help make movies, they say they work in movies. I work in space. - All right. - But yeah, it's the industry. - The industry went unsaid there. And one of my absolute favorite games, I think because of my job is called High Frontier.

And Terraforming Mars is just right along that alley. The theme is what I like best about it. - Yeah. And I agree. So my introduction to the game was at Board Game GeekCon. And I guess this would have been in 2016. I mean, it was a really new game. And one of my friends had a copy and he didn't even have like the box. I think he had left the box up in his hotel room and brought just the components in his bag and. - What? - Played it. Yeah. - Were you horrified? - Yeah, this was.

(laughs) Yeah, personally I was. The opportunity for damage to the game was incredibly high, but it was great. And same thing, the theme was just amazing. None of us knew what we were doing. And so I ended up winning. I think it was the only time I've ever won this game. And so of course, I had a really good first impression about it. (laughs) Paul, you mentioned that working in space, how legitimate does the science feel to you in this game? - Yeah, that's a great question.

You know, the first time I played it, I thought it was completely legitimate, but I think partly because of the game, partly because of what NASA and SpaceX have been doing recently, we've learned a lot about how extremely difficult it's going to be to terraform Mars. Things like how Mars doesn't really have magnetic protection to shield its atmosphere from solar flares and similar, how in any kind of atmosphere we put on the planet, it's just going to be stripped away pretty quickly.

There's a lot of very, very tough problems we're going to have to solve before we can put people on the surface of Mars. But I think we can in the near term, put people underground on Mars and establish colonies very similar to the game. I mean, the very first few generations of the game, there are several cards that talk about underground cities and habitats, and they require that the oxygen level be quite low to play those cards. I think it really fits with the theme of terraforming.

So, you know, it might not be as affordable as the game makes it out to be, but I think it is a dream to strive toward. - Awesome, Elle. I agree, I think it's very scientifically, I'm going to say accurate. I think they really did their homework when it comes to terraforming Mars. The thing I would point out is that this is supposed to be in the 2300, 24th century. I think if anything, the technology that's depicted in this game is more near term to our current era than I would say 2300.

There's nothing, I mean, the amount that the human race has progressed in just the last 100 years, even, you know, last 50 years, is leaps and bounds, and none of the tech in the game actually seems like it comes from the 23rd century. It seems like, sorry, 24th century. It seems like it comes from the near future. So, if anything, I would say it's not accurate from that standpoint. However, if you look at the map, the map is amazing because they've got the 8% oxygen.

There you get like a kick in temperature, which kind of goes along with the whole creating greenhouse effects at zero degrees Celsius. It starts looking like, you get like a free ocean because that's when standing ice would turn, start turning into liquid water, which would certainly make a lot of sense. So, I think they've done a really great job in researching the science behind this game. So, you know, huge kudos to them.

- Yeah, perhaps the most inaccurate part is the singular focus across generations and how incapable we currently are as a race to do something like that. So, what's our AI overlords take over? I think it'll be possible. - I personally welcome our AI overlords. - And as you know, I work in the AI industry, so I will make sure your contributions are noted. - Okay, so this is a game that, or a game type that we affectionately refer to as big deck energy, right?

These games that have large stacks of unique cards and part of the challenge is drawing and deploying cards that synergize well with each other to build your engine. I've heard some people call it an engine builder and I chafe a little bit at that term, only in that it makes it sound like this was the first instance of an engine builder. When of course, that term had long proceeded through release of terraforming Mars.

But when we talk about these big deck energy games, what other ones are you reminded of? I mean, this is obviously an important one in that genre. - Yeah, I think some of the ones that come immediately to mind are Arc Nova, Wingspan, and Maracaibo. - Oh, interesting, okay. So would you put Maracaibo ahead of something like Dune Imperium or do you not consider Dune Imperium to be in the same class? - That's a great question.

I guess because I think of Dune Imperium as a deck builder where you're collecting cards for your personal deck, I didn't consider it to be as such. But yeah, I think Dune Imperium totally fits. - Yeah, I would say that Wingspan is probably closer because I personally consider it more of a tableau builder than a deck builder.

For me, deck building tends to be a kind of a shuffle through a deck sort of feeling where this is, you're just putting stuff down maybe even with some shades of magic, the gathering where you're building a tableau to create your engine more than a deck builder itself. - Okay, I think you're both right about the difference between deck building and Paul. I think that calling Dune Imperium more of a deck builder than this kind of game is right.

There are also some duplicates right in Dune Imperium. So maybe it doesn't quite get into the same class. - Similarly in Maracaibo, but they both have very big decks. - Just they do. - Okay, so while we are performing this planet and trying to make it habitable, the three main things that we're trying to do, right? We're trying to raise the heat, we're trying to increase the oxygen level and we're trying to create enough surface water. Is there an optimal path to those goals?

They all need to be achieved in achieving them signals, the game and... - Well, I'll jump in here real quick. I think one of the things that probably isn't taken into account a lot of times when discussing this game is player count. The reality of the situation is a two player game is so different from a five player game.

A five player game generationally-wise ends very quickly where a two player game, you've got a lot of engine building and you're building off this huge tableau and there's no optimal way once you start building your engine 'cause you are creating it your way and it depends on your corporation and your starting card is quite a bit. But a five player game is a knife fight. Everybody's going after TR as quickly as possible because you don't have time to build an engine and make it work.

- That's a great point. - Yeah, I agree. I think the only time where there might be an optimal path is solo when you're doing the solo challenge. - Oh, okay. - Then, or efficiency reasons, it's often best to get heat and maybe oceans before you start working on the O2 and planting forests since you're not contesting the forest with anybody else. But in multiplayer game, I think that flies out the window, like Al said.

- Interesting, yeah, in our last game, Paul, it was just a two player and I think Al hit it spot on because we ended to what generation nine or something like that before the game finally ended and it was almost a battle at that point as to whose engines were generating more points before one of us cried uncle. - Yeah, I think we went to 11 or 12, honestly. It felt like it took a while. - Right.

- Those last couple of turns kind of grinds to a halt because you got, okay, I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna do this and it slows down quite a bit those last couple of turns 'cause you're trying to bring out every point you can possibly get out of your engine. - Right, and you've also passed the levels of the benefits.

So while we're climbing the tracks and Al, you mentioned the benefits of if you get to zero degrees, you get to place on an extra ocean, those little one-off benefits, do you find yourself slowing down so you don't set up the next player to capitalize on one of them? - I personally do, absolutely. When you start getting to those points, then you are looking at who's first player and you're kind of starting to drag along your first one action versus two action aspects.

It gets very tactical at that point when you don't wanna give away something that you yourself want. - Yeah, I agree. The free terraforming bonuses especially are just huge. If you see that within striking distance and you don't have the cards, just pay for the standard projects twice to get to it. It's that big a deal. But for the free heat income at the bottom of the temperature track, I don't care. You guys can have it. - Depends on your corporation.

- Okay, so let's talk about those standard projects. I gotta say oftentimes there's something that I forget about as I'm looking at my cards and trying to figure out which ones I'm going to be able to afford or maybe I'm going to build less this round so I can play one of them in the next. I forget that the standard projects are always there and possible. How important are those in the early game? - I avoid them because they are a little overpriced.

On average, I think cards are going to be a much more efficient way to get those terraforming steps. So for me, I only use the standard projects when I'm going to get one of those free bonuses or at the end of the game to max out a track so that nobody else can gain a terraforming rating from them. - Yeah, standard projects is like paying for a retail. You never want to pay retail. You always want to get some sort of discount. And cards are that discount.

I find them to be the guide by which I measure cards. When I get a card that gives me a power, I know 11 points gives me power. So if something's nine and I have to pay three points to get it, that's 12. I know that card's probably not going to be as advantageous as just doing a standard project. So I use that as a guide to measure all of the cards against. If it's a huge discount, if it's a three and I'm getting a power, then I'm all over it because that's half priced.

- Right, so let's dig down into more of that. How do you evaluate if a card is over, if it's overpriced or if it's a bargain? What's your method of looking at it and understand that some of them are going to be like events are going to be one shots. Others are going to be the blue cards, the science cards and provide ongoing benefits. How do you evaluate the value of cards? - I think this is a poll question. - Well, to start with, the online community has reverse engineered the design.

Rosetta Stone, if you will, to come up with certain costs in mega credits for each thing, like a victory point on average is worth about five mega credits. So is a mega credit income. A terrifying rating is worth about 10 on average, just looking at all the cards and calculating how their cost was put on the upper corner of the card. - Okay. - You can apply the same to other incomes too, like steel, titanium, plants, or eight or 10 mega credits worth.

So knowing that when you look at the standard projects, you're like, these are overpriced. If I have cards, the best thing to do is to use the cards and your question about how to evaluate whether a card's worth it really comes down to what phase of the game you're in and what cards you've already played in front of you. - Okay. - The ROI is a big factor too, 'cause if you're playing something a late game, you're not going to get them as much benefit as you would if you're playing an early game.

- Right. - Exactly like mining rights, which gives you a steel or titanium income. That's worthless late game, but in the first three turns, it's wonderful, right? - I agree. - Plus you get to steal from an opponent. That's always a good thing, right? (laughing) - There are several attack cards in the game. Yes, you wanna talk about those? (laughing) - Sure, you think it's a good addition or a bad addition to the game, or is this one of those, you need to curate the deck you wanna play with?

- Yeah, 'cause there's a lot of cards in the game that allow you to steal from other players or destroy their plants. Some people absolutely hate that kind of thing in a board game. - Well, sure. - Personally, I love it. - Yeah. (laughing) - We're corporations, we're not friends. - There's nothing like dropping an ice droid on an ice hole to take their plants. (laughing) - Well played. - Well, you know, that is really one of the few ways you can directly interact with other players.

So if you have somebody pulling away just because they've gotten super lucky with their card draw, the other players can kind of gang up on them and reel them back into the pack, right? - Yeah, but you know, you're still paying for the card, right? You get a card, you're paying the three bucks to hold on to it. Then you pay the credits to play it. It still has to make sense from, you know, your own economy standpoint. - I find that a lot of them are right at the edge.

So I find myself not really buying them, although if we're drafting, I try not to pass them to Todd, but... (laughing) - I'm not the one you have to stop. - Yeah, that's a good point now. Like the raiders and the hackers, they are a little extra pricey because they're attacking other players. But in my opinion, the big events that destroy other players' plants, you get that for free. (laughing) - It's a gift that keeps on getting.

(laughing) - The one aspect I wanted to cover earlier was the one action versus two actions on your turn. There is the desire to do one action to kind of keep everything close to the chest so you can see what other people are doing. But I found that that delays the game a bit and it takes too long. So where it is a good thing to do from a, I want to win standpoint. It's not necessarily a good thing to do with a, I want to play this game in an ideal time limit. - That's a great point, I agree.

- You do? I find that interesting 'cause I feel like it is something that I really want to avoid simply because it's inefficient for me to only take one action during my turn if I have to. - You give a lot of your ideas and your direction away when you do two actions and then let everybody else see what it is and then everyone else plays one action and then you do two actions by that time, we know where you're going and we can mitigate some of those actions.

- Hmm, right, and if you can wait out everybody else until they all pass, then you can take unlimited actions in a row, which is really powerful. - Very powerful. - All right, I'm gonna do that more often. - Well, and that's the challenge is you, when playing one action on your turn draws the game out. - Welcome to the six hour three player game.

- Right, and then the other aspect of that is the end game, I don't think we've talked about the end game as much where if you think that you're not winning, then you can kind of delay terraforming, you know, we kind of mentioned we controlled the, when the game's over, but if you're delaying, so you can get more points versus somebody else is trying to push it along because they're ahead, you know, that can draw the game out a little bit longer. - Yeah, that's definitely a tug of war.

- Yeah, that gets a little, you know, it's like, okay, when is this game gonna end? - Well, what about the other way of competing with the other players and by that I mean, selecting the milestones and the awards? Isn't that another way that you can try to? - Yeah, a lot of people argue online about whether this game is a race or an engine builder. What is the predominant kind of game that it wants to be?

Is everybody contesting to complete the TR tracks and get those milestones and fund those awards first? Or should everybody sit back and build an engine to generate a bunch of victory points? - It's a hotly contested question. I don't think it has an answer. - I think the milestone is absolutely, I mean, I'm starting up the milestones. The awards are absolutely a race. You will always see people. - That's a milestone.

- See, the milestones, unless you have, like, say a, if you're going for a strategy, like, say a heat strategy, you don't necessarily want to fund those milestones too early because-- - Well, as the milestones are, like, first to cities-- - Oh, right, right. Right, back up. - Yeah, there's four rides. - Yeah, exactly. - Right, first to 35 TR. Yeah, that is absolutely a race. And being able to get five points for a mere eight mega credits is a steal. - It's huge, yeah. - Right?

- That's absolutely a race. The awards were the thing you do late in the game. - Right, 'cause you don't know if you're gonna be a top dog for any of them. - Again, unless you, like, have a heat strategy and you know you're gonna have the heat engine and you might as well get that cheap award early on. - That cheap award, that's a key decision because they get more expensive as you go along, right? - The first one's eight that's 14 and then 20, I believe.

- So the first one is relatively inexpensive but then the next ones get progressively more so. But if you have someone who's out there pursuing a heat strategy, you might say, "Well, I'm gonna go ahead and make sure that one of the others gets selected and now that person has to decide if they wanna try to squeeze in more engine building before they fund it or if they have to pause and make sure that they secure that award. " I think it's an interesting point.

- I just don't know if the point values are enough for it to make that much of a difference on your strategy. What do you guys think? - Yeah, because multiple people are getting the points for the award. - Correct. And for the awards, you may not be that person.

You may be paying money for somebody else where I think Paul said earlier five points for VP is kind of what people have agreed as the average and you're here, you're paying eight for five points or 14 for five points or 20 for five points. All of those sound like based on the five mega credits per point is to be a good deal, but it's still up in the air until the end of the game. - Right. - I think I remember Todd, one game. I think you gained like 10 banker points in like one round.

It was right at the end to pull the banker. - Oh, the mega credit income, yeah. - Yeah, I think he came out of nowhere. - It was like, where did that come from? - So I did something well once. Okay, I'm glad you remember that. You've done so much and things like that. It's like last minute surprises.

- You know, especially when it comes to awards, when you fund them, that's generally the time I'm also thinking about where to build cities and cities, especially if there's forests already on the planet can be a much more efficient way to get points than those second or third awards. - Right. So when do you like to build cities? - I mean, my rule of thumb is if I see a spot that has three forests, I try to put a city there as quickly as possible. So nobody else can get it.

- Even two open ones is kind of a draw. - Two is great and it should be considered. I mean, the other thing you have to consider is the milestone for the first of three cities. - Oh, right, okay. - If you're playing like a varsus corporation, the one that gets bonuses for it. - You can start with one, yeah. - Yeah, the bonuses, you know, that person's gonna be just popping up cities all over the place. So that's a very valid strategy as well, I believe.

- Right, do you like playing with their corporate era cards? - So they have like a lot of once-per-turned-actions that they include. - Yeah. - So they add a little something to the game, a little complication. - They're not. When you play without the corporate era cards, the game is almost singularly focused on terraforming. So I think what the corporate era cards do is they give a lot of options and decision-spaced people who like engine building. - Okay, that makes sense.

I do like playing with them, and especially the like the Jovian tags that you get where if you have more projects that have those tags on them, they're usually worth points at the end of the game. It gives you a swim lane of sorts. - Yeah, there's not a lot of Tovian tags without the corporate era, I agree. - Right. - That's a really big strategy of the Jovian tags.

If you get, what is it, Saturn systems, if you get that corporation, I think there's two different cards that give you a victory point for each Jovian, and you basically, if you have both of those out, then every Jovian tags giving you two more victory points. - Well, it's an income. - It's a huge, yeah, as well as a big income, yeah. And you know, the ability to like pop out oceans and stuff. So I believe there's a huge strategy there with the Jovian corporation.

- All right, so one of the other things, and this might come up in house rules, but let's talk about it now. To draft or not to draft? I honestly think that there is only one way to play this game. - I mean, it's in the rule book, right? - Yes. - As a variation. - Correct. - I'm strong with drafting. I think drafting is the way to go. It kind of mitigates. I mean, we're probably gonna talk about the randomness of the game a little bit later.

- Mm-hmm. - But I think it mitigates a lot of that randomness. There are times when you get a handful of cards at the beginning of the turn, and you're like, I want all four of these. But with drafting, you only get one, and you cry, and hopefully you can pull the best one. It's hard to figure out which one you want. - Yeah, I enjoy the game a lot more when I draft those four cards per turn. When I don't, sometimes I'm just crying because somebody got lucky and I got unlucky. - Right.

Well, and the other thing I like about it is drafting the card is not an obligation to buy the card. So it's another way to affect the other players, because I might know that you are looking for-- - 100%, the little microbes, right? And if you're gonna be adding microbes to your cards, if you're gonna go that route for a game. And I can go ahead and say, I'm going to take this card and deny it to you, but I'm not obligated to actually buy it.

I think it's a unique version of the draft that I really like compared to something like, it's a wonderful world where, yeah, I don't necessarily have to buy it, but if I'm just taking it to deny it from you, it has to at least have some use to me, right? Like, if I take it and I'm going to just trash it, I wanna make sure in that game that it's going to give me a resource that's gonna help me develop one of my other cards.

Otherwise, spite drafting doesn't really make any sense, but in terraforming Mars, it's like designed for it, and I like that addition of competition to the game. - Me too. - You found a way to token without actually tokening? (laughing) - You know, we've talked about space exploration being one of our favorite themes in real life. What other media do you enjoy around space exploration specifically?

- Yeah, well, you know, especially when I play this game, I just think about the movie, the Martian and the book, of course. (laughing) I mean, the fact that I played this game before that movie came out, and then I got to watch the movie and then read the book, and every time I did, I wanted to play the game more. It's like this feedback loop of the culture about getting to Mars and putting people on Mars and being able to realize that while playing this game. I love it, right?

- Yeah, I mean, the Martian is the one that comes straight to mind. I mean, we, Paul recommended the book to me, I don't know, 2010 or so, and I just devoured it. It's easily one of my favorite books. And then the movie came out and the movie quickly turned into one of my favorite movies. I thought they did such a great job with it. And same with Paul, it's like, when I play the game, I want to see the movie, and when I see the movie, I want to play the game. It's a great feedback loop. - Right?

So you're not thinking about total recall? - No. (laughing) - Absolutely not. - I think the very first game I played with Elle, I made a lot of total recall quotes. (laughing) But yeah, not anymore. - Right. There have been so many bad movies about it though, like "Mission to Mars" or something like that. - Oh. - It's been done not very well many times. More times than it has been done well. - I mean, you mentioned the movie that is even less scientifically accurate than total recall.

It's just ridiculous. (laughing) - The total recall is a college level course with comparison to it. - Yeah, "Mission to Mars" is a kid drawing with a red crayon. There you go. (laughing) And the worst was they build it as scientifically accurate. It was anything but, oh man. (laughing) All right, so then let's move on to the prompts. Weight and complexity. On board game geeks scale of one to five, which also aligns with board game arena, where it is called complexity there.

How would you rate the weight or complexity of terraforming Mars? Al, why don't you get a start? - Well, I think you can just look at the game itself. You would think of it as a weight of two. But if you start looking at knowing the iconization and the amount of reading that you have to do, and then watching what the other players are doing, basically you got a lot of balls up in the air at the same time. And I think that adds a level of complexity beyond the actual gameplay.

So I'm gonna give it a three, 'cause I think it's a medium. So you said no decimal points, but it's definitely right a little bit above the three. - Right? - I believe. - Paul, what did you have? - I've played the game so much I had to go back in time to the first year I played it to think about this. And with that perspective, I rated it a four. It has so many rules, although admittedly, most of those rules are offloaded onto the cards, which makes it a little easier.

But it is easy to forget about several aspects of the game. I feel like people frequently forget about the milestones or the awards or some of the placement rules, various other things. - Right. - Or discounts that they might have. - Right. (laughing) - I know one of these days they're gonna make a version called a retcon the game where you're just going back and trying to recover the various things you've forgotten. - We play that all the time. (laughing) - Yeah, that's all of them, right?

(laughing) - That's every game. (laughing) - What do you think, Todd? - I had it down as a three as well. I even cheated a little. I said it's a strong three. There's additional complexity while you're learning the cards. And I thought about what Paul was saying, like all of the different things you have to keep in mind. And it could be like a temporary four.

And I think if you play it enough that you're familiar with how the game works and what cards and combinations are possible, then it scales back to a three. So I'm gonna leave it at a three. - Yeah, I agree. - So then strategy. How much opportunities are for strategy and long-term planning? Same scale, one to five. - Paul? - I rate this as a three. There is a bit of strategy. Sometimes you do get to choose early on between cards that can help you build different kinds of engines.

But mostly the game is about evaluating your best option in the current generation and just being as efficient as possible. - Interesting. And when you talk about your best option, are you looking at how do I play a big card or a couple of little cards or is that part of the calculation?

- Yeah, so you're given, I mean, at the beginning of the game, you're given eight cards and you have to decide how much can I play in, you have to set a time limit for yourself as well because you don't wanna pay the extra money for a whole bunch of cards you're not gonna play. But then each successive turn, you're given four new cards and you have to map out. Which of these is worth keeping? What's my timeline to play them? And how efficient can I be?

You know, is it possible to go down to zero or one or two mega credits and still gain something this generation? - Right. Okay, Al, how about you? What do you have for strategy here? - I also have it as a three. I think Paul hit the nail on the head. You know, you can set a direction in the game. It's just basically instead of long-term planning, it's long-term direction. But at the end of the day, you have specific cards. You can be focused on a specific direction.

However, you know, so many times during the game, you've got to pivot. You've got to deal with what you have in your hand and sometimes it's actually a good pivot. And sometimes it's, you know, you're just along for the ride. - Right, you're sticking with three. Even after you mentioned a couple of different corporations that give you a direction, does your answer change if you are playing with the corporate era cards? - I maintain that that is a direction.

So if you get like the corporation like Helian, which is a heat-based strategy, and then you get a couple of great initial heat cards and then you don't see another heat card again to save your life. Whether it's Todd, Hay Drafting, or... - Right. - You know, just poor luck. You started off in that direction, but you can go with energy to try to go along with that heat. Or, you know, suddenly you're trying to get poodles on your card, on your pet cards.

- Yeah, like titanium, I think, is a great example because titanium can only be used on space cards. And as I recall, there's space cards make up less than a fifth of the deck. So it's entirely possible that you'll never draw another space card and can't do a single thing with the 20 titanium you've stocked up. - And most of those are even cards. So that's a challenge. - Right? Well, I mean, it was a useless moon anyway. (laughing) - Demosteuf, demosteuf.

- You know, I had strategy as a fore, especially if you were playing with the drafting variant, but you guys may have talked me down from that. I do think that you hopefully have the opportunity to follow the direction that you've set, but yeah, you're right, you may not see those cards, and in which case, if your strategy is to stubbornly stick to it, you're going to stubbornly wind up in less place. So then luck, how much do you think luck plays a factor in the game?

I'll go ahead and say, I had this added two, primarily because of the drafting variant. I mean, there is still a card draw, and even if you're doing a draft, you might get lucky, and one of the four cards you start with might be right in your wheelhouse, right? Or your opponent might get that card, so it's not keeping it away from them, they already have it. So for me, I had luck down as a two. What did you guys have? - I put it as a four.

I think the biggest irritation, honestly, is how lucky or unlucky that you can be on your draft, on your cards. I so hardly agree that the draft is important, simply to mitigate the luck factor, but in the base game, the luck is, you'd have to be pretty lucky, and then the draft, you gotta see who's behind you, that's gonna not give you the cards you want. - Right, yeah, I rate it as a three. I agree with Al that there's a lot of luck.

I think the mitigations of a shared map, the standard projects, and the attack cards when you're playing with more than two players, plus the drafting, level it out at three for me. - Okay, I'm cool with that. - Split the uprights. Theme, how much do you think the theme has been integrated with the game? Same scale, one to five. - For me, it's a five. I think theme, as we talked about, is the biggest draw of the game. I feel like every aspect of the game is strongly connected to the theme.

- All right. - I have to agree 100%. Theme is his game, spread and butter. There's 200 plus cards in the deck, and every one of them is dripping with theme. Take a moment to take about 200 cards that are unique, and have either lore or theme on them. I mean, this is a fine dining experience, it's flavors to be savored, it's amazing. - Nice, I agree. It is a five. I would bump it to a six if it was on the scale.

If you also have 3D printed tiles to go along with it, whether you did it yourself, you got them from a third party, or you later got the official ones they released as part of the big box. I think that just takes it to an 11 at that point. I really love the way the theme has been integrated with every aspect of the game. What's your favorite player count? What is it best played at? - What do you think, Todd? - I had it down as three.

I think that's also because most of the time we play this game, it's the three of us. And so that might be a biased answer, but I think the enjoyment, the competition and the playing time are perfectly balanced at a three player game. What did you have, Al? - I also had three players as my favorite player count. I think I mentioned this earlier, the game changes based on player counts. I think four could be quite enjoyable as well.

I think two turns the game into just basically an engine building game and five turns it into a knife fight. So enjoy Billywise, three is a great balance between both of those. - Yeah, I totally agree. Three players for me, more than three players and it just feels like the game's always gonna be a race because it's only gonna last eight generations or so. And when you're at two players, oftentimes, you know who's gonna win the game by the fifth generation.

So you could just pack it up at that point. - Okay, to be fair, our last game, I didn't know I was gonna lose until far down in the game. (laughing) So what's your least favorite player count? - For me, it's two players. I think it's too difficult to overcome the luck factor in a two player game. There's no way to gang up on the leader. I prefer the solo game to two player, yeah. - Right, interesting. Okay, Al, what did you have?

- I'm gonna go with five, you know, while it's a fast game, I find that in a five player game, I kind of lose interest in what others are doing because it takes kind of a while to get around to me. And then you get some players that want to play the one action versus two action. I'm gonna do one action and see what everybody else is gonna do and that kind of catches on and it becomes even a slower slog.

Even though it's a fast game, you may be sitting at six generations or seven generations when the game's over, that still took you five, five and a half hours. And at that point, I would turn it from a knife fight into a seppacou. - So I think Al's referencing the tabletop simulator game we did during the pandemic that, yeah, lasted a hell of a long time. Yeah, but some of that's just tabletop simulator and manipulating it correctly. - I think that's also true.

- Yeah, there's definitely a lot of friction, but hey, it was better than no game game. - And retcon the variation. - Right? (laughing) So I agree with you Al, that five players is my least favorite for the same reason. It takes too long. Even if the game is quick in quotations because of the number of generations that will have elapsed before the end of the game, in that case, they feel like actual generations and not just game ones. So, bird. So then actual playing time. Boxes can lie.

- Boxes lie. - And here the box says it takes, they can. Here it says it takes 120 minutes, which I think is interesting because normally there might be a range from which you couldn't infer player account having a contribution. This is just 120 minutes. What are your thoughts about that? - I can't remember a three player game ever finishing that quickly. - Right? - I didn't realize it said 120 minutes. I think it's about 45 minutes per player.

- Well, okay, well, I think it's more of an hour per player. I don't think a four hour game is not unheard of even in the three player game. And that's one of the things that we've probably are gonna touch on with additions is how variants or expansions change that timing where I think one of our favorite expansions is Prelude. And mostly for the reason that it speeds the game along. It takes that awkward first turn and makes it more enjoyable.

- It definitely clocks in longer than 120 minutes, no doubt. I would say it's closer to 45 to 50 minutes per player as opposed to somehow magically getting to 120 despite player account. When we talk about that, in one of the things that we, at least in our group, we think Prelude is a must include. I think it is a prime example of an expansion that you must include just because it helps get the game off to a faster start. How do you feel about the expansions for the game?

- So Prelude, in my opinion, is a must have. The first round of a vanilla terraforming Mars game is kind of just getting to the point where Prelude would get you to. I think that easily eliminates 15, 20 minutes from the game by just using Prelude in it. It actually makes the asynchronous start even that more interesting. Other expansions, you know, I've played 'em all. I've owned them all, but most of their time, when I look at 'em, I just ask why.

I think Collies is a fun expansion, but it just adds time. So is the fun it adds, is it enough to add another hour to it? No, not really. Venus Next, I've never really enjoyed that version. Helles and Elysiums, it's nice to have different maps. So those, I think, are a solid expansion and turmoil, I think is just like the Star Wars episode one where you add Coruscant to the movie and now you have it on Mars. And it's like, I can't think of anything that makes you want to go to sleep faster.

(laughing) Let's talk about taxes. (laughing) Right, so it's not like Twilight Imperium where the political aspects actually kind of a fun, you know, vote sort of thing. But when you get to that, it lasts, you know, four or five minutes, you know, six minutes at the outside, if someone's really trying to negotiate stuff, but turmoil adds an entire hour to the game, it's just not worth it. I guess the question about expansions is, do we consider the Aries Expedition again expansion or not?

And I've got a very strong-- It's a standalone, right? It is a standalone. It's a race for the Galaxy remake of Terraforming Mars. I didn't realize it was considered an expansion by folks. I don't know, that was my question. Is it an expansion? It's called Terraforming Mars Aries Expedition. So my opinion on Aries Expedition is, it doesn't have the flavor that Terraforming Mars has.

And as a game, if I'm going to play a game, I'm going to play Race for the Galaxy instead of Aries Expedition, which 'cause Race is already a great game that has amazing mechanics and it's just a better game. That was great. So I will say about Aries Expedition, and I have a copy of that one, and we've played it a couple of times. I like it, I don't know if it was because we were new to that version of the game, but it had a similar playing time.

Like, when you look at it, it's supposed to be Terraforming Mars in half the time, but it was Terraforming Mars in the same amount of time, at which point, play Terraforming Mars, right? Right. So that was the one strike I had against it. What do you think of quality as a Todd? I liked it, I liked having other places to be settled and that could be developed. I thought it was an interesting version of the game, but it also gets you away from the shared map space.

So it makes it more of a heads down game. So if you like adding that to Terraforming Mars and colonies might be an expansion worth pursuing. Yeah, for me, Prelude is the best expansion ever made for any game. (laughing) So how do you really feel about it?

Nice. I most of the time agree with Dave about expansions, just adding bloat or additional paths, adding chaos, diminishing the effect of the gameplay that's already there, the decisions we make, reducing the power of those decisions and most of all extending the playtime of the game. That's what most expansions do, but Prelude adds big decisions to the beginning of the game and makes the playtime shorter without diminishing any part of the game. It's a staggering achievement.

Preach it, brother, preach it. (laughing) So we skipped over which edition of the game is the best. I don't know if we actually need to talk about it. Do you guys have an opinion here? Well, I thought we could talk about the accessories here. Let's do it. Because I love the accessories that capture your income cubes and prevent them from sliding around. I think they are a huge improvement. Yes. I think any version that POD owns is my favorite version.

(laughing) So this was one of those games that I went out and decided I was going to invest in accessorizing it. So yeah, I went on to Etsy and I found the acrylic player boards where the thick paper player board went in it and it provided the retainers for the various cubes and I bought five of them, right? So I could have a full set. And then later I went and it was like some guy in Norway was doing 3D printed tiles.

And so I of course decided I needed to have 3D printed tiles and they're absolutely gorgeous. They are gorgeous. And then like two years later, Stronghold Games came out with the big box and gave you dual layer player boards that do the same thing the acrylics do. And they also provided their version of 3D printed tiles which may not be as pretty, but they're pretty darn good. And it all comes in one box that has room and trays for all the things, so.

Which one of your additions has the transparent domes you can put on top of the cities? Big box, the Stronghold big box. Oh yeah, I really enjoy those. Yeah, those are nice. If I were to be buying Terraforming Mars new today, if I knew I liked the game, then I would go with the big box, no hesitation. But if I didn't, I wouldn't spend that extra money. And buy Prelude going with it. And then buy Prelude to go along with it, yes.

You know, they did a Kickstarter for Prelude 2, so I'm interested to see what the contents of that turn out to be. So now, most recognizable comparison. What's the highest ranking game that reminds you the most of Terraforming Mars? I would say the highest one would be Wingspan. I think Wingspan shows a lot of similarities between, not only what you're doing with the birds, but it's also, the mechanics aren't different either.

I also have the obvious answer of Race for the Galaxy, but Wingspan is a higher rated game. So my answer could be Wingspan. - Okay, do you manage to catch your choice, Paul? - No, no, we did an episode earlier about Arc Nova where I called out Terraforming Mars here. And so I can't not mention Arc Nova, but I also want to mention Gaia Project because I absolutely love the shared board on Terraforming Mars. And Gaia Project does that same thing with a space theme.

Also, Gaia Project throws out all the cards. So there's really no luck to Gaia Project. And if you like the shared board and the contest of players in space without a bunch of cards adding luck to the game, check out Gaia Project. - Right, well, that's a good pick. Now that's, I mean, it's not just Terramystica in space, but it is a reimplementation of a lot of the Terramystica mechanisms in a space theme. - Extremely similar, that's correct. - Yeah, very similar.

- Hey, two games that are initial TM. (laughs) - Oh, I know, and there are a few. So sometimes you have to take context into consideration when you hear that abbreviation. I went with an easy one here. I went with Earth, though the game that was released in 2023, I believe, which is another big deck energy style game, bunch of unique cards.

But beyond that, and obviously the superficial connection that it's named after a planet, you have a variety of fauna objectives and ecosystems that you're trying to construct in that game. So as opposed to the five awards and five milestones that are printed on the board, you have a much greater variety of game states that you could be competing for in any one play, which I think is pretty cool. And the playing time is a lot less.

So I love them both, but I think Earth reminds me of Terraphoming Mars, but I also agree that Wingspan and Paul, Arknova, I mean, all of those games come into the conversation when we're talking about these big deck energy games. - I have Arknova down as well as one of the ones that are similar to it. I mean, it's a big call. - Okay, less recognizable comparison. So what did you have as a game that may not be as well known that still reminds you of Terraphoming Mars?

Paul, I'm gonna let you go first. - Yeah, for me, the game is Outpost. Outpost is an economic snowball auction game with the theme of building an outpost on another planet. And like Terraphoming Mars, it is 100% about efficiency and who can be the most efficient. - But unlike Terraphoming Mars, the game is centered on an auction that allows players to directly fight over the most efficient opportunities and make them less efficient. - Yes, this is all true. Al, what did you have?

- Well, one of my loves on computers is 4X games. And there's a game called Alien Artifacts. I think it's ranked like 2,400 and something. But Alien Artifacts has, it's a 4X game, basically you go out and try to expand and exploit all the 4X fun. But you're also exploring the planets and kind of building them up. There's some nice economics. You're doing some resource building, so you're getting an engine going there as well.

So for me, I thought was Alien Artifacts, which was a really good theme, just wider. Just let's Terraform the universe. - Right, okay, I like it. So Paul, you might have guessed from my response that I also had Outpost down, but I have a back story. I was afraid I was going to take it. No, no, it's all good. - I did not have a backup. - Okay, well, then it's a good thing you went first. But you did mention it earlier in the pod and that was High Frontier.

Like, I don't know when else we're going to talk about High Frontier unless we do an actual episode on it. But if there's a game that really makes you feel like you are doing space exploration, it's High Frontier. - 100%. - I love that game, it's fantastic. - Kerbal Space on a board game. - Yeah. - But it's, that's true. Then House Rules, how would you improve this game? Do you have any suggestions here? I got nothing. - Yeah, it's a hard one. I enjoy the game as is.

If anything, I say you have to do drafting. I don't know if that's considered a, it's definitely a mentioned variation, but I think drafting's a must, honestly. - I agree. - Yeah. - I had play with Prelude, use drafting variant and 3D cost. (laughing) - Absolutely. - Those are my house rules. - I mean, if you look at the forums and everything, there's a lot of discussion about a few of the companies that are OP and they give people a little heads up.

So some House Rules people just don't use a couple of those. I don't know if it's that big of a deal. Honestly, I'm not playing. - You remember which one, Zell? I know a lot of people hate on Ecoline, but I think that's because they don't play properly. (laughing) - Well, I know that Sarsis is the big one, which is the city. - The free city, yeah. - The free city. - That's a huge number of points, that's true. - So that's the big one.

I think Helian is the smaller aspect of that and also Point Luna, I think is part of that as well. So, and there's a couple other cards that people forbid, but I don't know, I probably don't want to agree to this, but I think the beauty of terraforming Mars is in the playing, not in the winning. It just brings happiness as you change the planet from the red planet to a blue planet. - I'll say it. - No, I agree with all of that.

- Yeah, so then if this game is being played at game diet, what do you want to play afterwards? What's the double feature game that goes along with it? - Race, roll. - I'll let you go first, Todd. - Right? Well, I mean, Al just said we're on the ones I had down, which was roll for the galaxy, so I actually prefer roll over race, that's just me, so I would play roll. - Dave doesn't always agree with the tiger. (laughing) - Right, what did you have, Paul? - Martian rails.

(laughing) - So we've come on, it's time to run railroads across it, you know? It's a crayon rail game. - It's an outside for trains. - The game, for those who don't know, the game is a crayon rail game based on Empire Builder.

It's set on Mars, it's the whole map of Mars, so if you go off one edge, your train comes in on another edge, and one of the things I like about Martian rails, that's quite different from terrifying Mars, is Martian rails pays homage to the last 100 years of sci-fi novels about Mars, so there's a lot of crazy and kooky things in there. - Is that a variation of Iron Dragon? - Yes. - Okay. - Iron Dragon's an amazing game too, yeah. - Very cool.

- I'm surprised you didn't say like 2038, so that Todd can token tharsis greater or something. (laughing) - I don't think we have enough time by the way. - That's why both of those games sit. (laughing) - No, 2038, the real challenge with 2038 is that it's an 18XX game that doesn't have like a pre-printed map that goes along with it, so because there is so much free form placement of the routes, the AP just goes through the roof. - It's also an 18XX game that doesn't have an 18 in it.

- Also true. So Al, did you have a double feature game that we didn't cover, or did you just jump on to Roll for the Galaxy as well? - Well, I mean, it's a race for the Galaxy, a Roll for the Galaxy. I think those kind of go hand in hand, but most any space game would be fun. That's the direction I went. - Okay, so what feature of the game still stands out to you? What has aged the best about terraforming Mars?

- Every time I play, I am literally in awe of the fact that there's so many unique cards. The amount of effort they put into pictures and theme, as well as the actual game mechanics, and the fact that it's not the cards aren't unbalanced. Going through that level of detail of gameplay, I think is incredible. That's what ages the best for me is, is the awe every time I play of the unique cards. - Right, I would agree with that. Paul, what did you have? - Yeah, I want to call out the shared map.

I think it's what differentiates it from other big Jack energy games, and I love the contest for position, especially on the expansion maps, Helis and Elysium. - Okay, I have not played on Helis or Elysium, so I will take your word for that. Now we'll have to try those out on the next game. I really liked the three advancement tracks of oxygen temperature and then the oceans.

I think having those three with spiffs along the way, if you reach a certain point, and the way they are integrated with the theme is just inspired. And so I really like how those three are managed, and then obviously the completion of all three triggers the end of the game. So which feature of the game now disappoints? But it hasn't aged as well. Do you have any? - For me, it's the luck of the cards.

I really appreciate how Arc Nova has a card row of selections you can pick from, as well as being able to draw off the top of the deck. So it's more choice there. - Are you thinking maybe there's a house rule in there somewhere? - Maybe, but it would require a lot of nuanced changes, I think, I wouldn't go there. (laughing) Just craft, craft is fine. - Right, interesting.

What if it was you're paying a mega credit for each spot you're skipping, or two mega credits, whatever the balance turns out to be? So you could select deeply, but you're gonna have to pay dearly for it. Could it be that simple? - I guess maybe something like instead of everybody being handed four cards, you put all the cards people are gonna get face up and you figure out some way to divvy them out from there.

So everybody knows that everybody's getting, but maybe that's too much information, I don't know. - Obsession. (laughing) That was the last episode. - Right. Al, what did you have? - I had components. I think Paul mentioned it earlier, the components of the player board specifically really disappointed. Once you pimped your components out, it got even better. I think that was the amazing part, was just adding a dual layer board, made the game work so much better.

And my second item was the randomness. The randomness is the same thing in Paul said. I think the draft helps it a little bit, but that's what's the worst for me. - Okay, yeah, I had just the fact that there are so many unique cards. Like, this isn't a game that I think a new player is going to be able to sit down and have a thorough understanding of what they should be doing, right? 'Cause they just don't know the combinations that are coming to be able to make informed decisions.

You're gonna have to get a few plays under your belt before you have that familiarity. So that's the thing I didn't like about it. I also agree, back when it was just the pre-enhanced version that didn't have the acrylic frames around the player boards. Having your stuff accidentally slide out of place because your shirt sleeve dragged across it or whatever, someone kicked the table, that was terrible. That's a good call. So now, did this game replace a previous one for you?

- I think it replaced Teramistica. - Yeah, I could see that. - I too put Teramistica down. Teramistica, I think had more flaws to it than we wanted to acknowledge. - Interesting. You know, I'm not just talking about which game gets the TM moniker, right? - Oh, now you tell us. - I had said that it effectively killed Roll for the Galaxy for us. I mean, we stopped playing Roll and I wouldn't mind going back and revisiting that one. - I thought that was just because Dave hated Roll.

- Yeah, that's right. - You know, Roll takes less than an hour. - That's true. - Terraforming Mars, three hours. So I never put those in the same bucket. - Right, so Dave replaced Roll for the Galaxy, yeah. Then no, I'm not sure that Terraforming Mars displaced anything for me. - I don't know if we get TM on the table as often as we'd like to. Or as I may, I should say, as often as I would like to. - Right? Well, that's the next prompt. - Oh, sorry. - It's coming.

And the next prompt would be, has this game since been replaced? And if so, by what? So I know what I have down here. - I haven't solid no. I don't think anything's taken its place per se. Twilight Imperium's a different game, I would say, more along the line of Dune Imperium. But from a replacement standpoint, I still think this is my go-to space game. - Okay, nice spread there, Al. - Yeah. For me, there are two games that Elvowed out Terraforming Mars.

And they're basically, Arc Nova and Dune Imperium have walked Elvos and kind of gotten in front of Terraforming Mars. That's why I don't play it anymore. - Yeah, I had those exact same two games. So, moving on, soundtrack. What music would you want to listen to while playing the game? Shall I take the easy one? Go for it. - Yeah, go ahead. - I'm not gonna quibble over this one. I'm going right down the middle, The Planets by Gustav Holst. - The Planets. - I appreciate it.

- That's exactly what I wrote. - Yeah, exactly what I wrote too. (laughing) - We all wrote the same thing. - Although I prefer Jupiter to Mars, but just-- - I like Cleans. - But, you know. (laughing) - So in rating on Board Game Geek scale of one to 10 now, and still no decimals, how would you rate Terraforming Mars? Al? - Well, I mean, Terraforming Mars is one of my favorite games, but you couldn't tell that from my rating. I've got rated as an eight.

The challenge with it is that the game's length of three plus hours and the luck factor kind of takes away from it. Without those two issues, if it was a two hour game, like the box says, and the luck factor is mitigated well with the drafting, it could be a 10, but it's just too long. It's too much to read, too much to do to make it a quicker game. - Right, how about you, Paul? - I also rated an eight.

I really enjoy playing, it's just there's other games that I enjoy more, or that the crowd I usually play with enjoys more. - Right, wow, well, we are unanimous across the board then. I also had it down as an eight. I mean, we played it more often than maybe it could be raised, but each time we get it out, I feel like I'm enjoying it more as an activity than I'm in honest competition for the game, and I enjoy that activity. It's great. For me, it's going to stay an eight for a while. - I agree.

- Is it replayable? And how soon would you want to revisit the game? - Hey, what are you guys doing tonight? (laughing) - Right. - Hey, it's Friday, are you serious? - You know, they're throwing marks on the table. I think it's very replayable. I mean, everything changes with the cards, with the corporations, with the addition of Prelude. I think that the game is almost different every single time. And then with the different maps, Helles and Elysium, I think it's even more so.

So I think it's definitely replayable. - Yeah, I agree. But what did you have? - Definitely, yes. It has been replaced on my gaming card, but now that it's on board game arena, I expect to be playing it a lot more. - Oh, good point, right. Now, the last time we played, we played on Steam. What are your thoughts about Steam versus board game arena? - Board game arena is ideal for asynchronous play, just taking one or two turns a day.

Steam, I feel like, is set up for live play much more, and the matchmaking is a lot more difficult. So I prefer to use board game arena, mostly because board game arena works on my phone. (laughing) - When you're looking at board game arena, I think that with a five player game, if you're eliminating all the downtime of waiting for the other players to go, I think that is the perfect way of playing a five player game that I earlier said I dislike.

Honestly, on Steam or the iOS app, I feel like we actually go too fast. I lose connection with the game 'cause when we're playing at the board, we're like, I'm going to do this, which does this and we're kind of announcing everything to the table and you're getting that reinforcement, but on Steam, it's like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, I don't really want to try to go back and figure out what I'm missing. So I actually don't like playing on Steam at all.

- This was actually Paul's observation, but I agree with it that board game arena makes it easier for you to understand the game state of the other players, whereas the Steam version, you're having to click on the individual players and you're having to click on what their projects are and it's harder to evaluate their-- - Steam is pretty first, and board game arena's functionality first. - Right, so I would also now prefer to play on board game arena, knowing what I know.

And there's an undo function, so if you need to reset your turn, you can do that. - Also good. - Redcon, the game. (laughing) - Hey, we've come full circle. All right, any other parting comments you guys have about the game before we wrap this up? - Let me ask you this question at the end. Todd, what is your favorite card? Do you have a favorite card? What card, when you see it, you start to salivate or really want to make sure that you get it in your hand?

- So I'm not experiencing up with the game to have a genuine answer to that, so I made reference to it earlier on. Dang Mustown is my favorite card just from the craziness that it embodies, and that I'm gonna drop a moon on you, and somehow that's not going to just destroy all of our work trying to terraform this planet. How about yours? - Paul, you have one? - There's two different things. I think a release of inert gases makes me snicker every time I see it.

(laughing) The card that makes me salivate, and the card I think is the best card in the game if you see it in your opening hand is Arctic algae, which says every time an ocean is played, you gain two plants, no matter who plays it. - Oh wow, that's very solid, that's very solid. My favorite card actually is A.I. Central. - You mean Al Central? - Al Central, exactly. - Yeah, Al Central. - Okay, you caught that, but you get to do an action every generation to draw two cards, two free cards.

It's so powerful, I salivate the only downside is you have to have like three science tags to do it, but if I see that, I'm grabbing it, and then I'm grabbing all those science tags to make sure I can play it. - Right. - So that's a huge one to me.

The one that cracks me up because of how bad I've used it, there's a card called Search for Life where every turn you, you know where I'm going with this, and you basically turn a card over and if it's a pet or a microbe, I think you get a VP or something. - Right, three VP actually. - I have never been successful with that card, even when getting it on the first turn, it's crazy how much I will try to get that card and make it work and it doesn't. - Right, it's the gold mine from Sam 1.

Awesome. All right, and with that, we have raised the temperature of the final degree. For our next episode, we're all going to try to avoid losing our sanity. So hey, thanks for being available today, guys. That was a lot of fun. And Al, thanks for participating in your first pod with the group. - Well, thank you for having me, I appreciate it. - Yeah, it was awesome. - Thank you for listening to "Replayable. " Support for our podcast comes from listeners like you.

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