El Grande

(upbeat music) Welcome to "Replayable" where we go into depth on our favorite tabletop games that keep us coming back again and again. I'm the start player Todd. And today I'm joined by David and Paul for our 26th episode. We'll be talking about another double laureate classic, El Grande. It was designed by Wolfgang Crommer and Richard Ulrich and was originally released by Hans M. Glueck in 1995 with artwork by Doris Vethaus.

A decennial edition was released in 2006 and a new version with artwork by Stefan Sonberger and Franz George Stemmola came out last year. Are you two gentlemen ready to tilt for territory? - I will not joke about the King Pawn. I will not joke about the King Pawn. I will not joke about the King Pawn, okay, I'm ready. (laughing) I just have to keep that mantra in my head. I will not be a 12 year old boy. - I already feel my authority decaying.

(laughing) - El Grande is a strategic board game set in medieval Spain. Players take on the roles of powerful nobles vying for control over regions by deploying their caviaros, which means knights. Using a unique action selection system, players compete to influence the different regions of Spain and earn points every third round. After the ninth round, the player with the most points is the winner.

This is one of those games that is always at the top of many of the OG Gamers Guild lists on board game geek. What was your introduction to El Grande? - For me, it was a game that even back in the early days of me getting into board games, mid-tots, I had always heard about it, but it was difficult to get at that time. And so it was kind of a grail game, although it's available right now. That's always been kind of the nature of El Grande is that it goes into print and then sells out.

And then a new edition comes out like the 10th anniversary and then it sells out. So I think it's typically been over the years difficult to get, although I think right now the new edition's widely available. But I got my copy because a store was going out of business up in the San Fernando Valley. And on their table for five bucks, I got a copy of a game called Stratego Legends. And it goes super early in my board gaming career. I thought that's something I might like. It turns out it's not.

But I had listed it and somebody contacted me out of the blue and said, you know, let's make a trade. I've been looking for that game and I want it. So he traded me a copy of El Grande. And we both felt like we got the better end of the deal. Now maybe I never looked it up. Maybe that Stratego Legends is worth a few hundred bucks, man. (laughing) - Don't look at him now. - But I'm very happy. - You could have had five El Grande's. - That's right.

But I got it and then I never played it for years. - Not never, but I mean, it took me a long time to get it to the table because I was only playing two players for a long time. - Right. And you've got one of the original Hansem Glück versions, right? - Yes. - This might be first edition. - Nice. How about you, Paul? What was your introduction to El Grande? - I don't know. You know, I moved to California in the arts. Before that, I had never heard of it or seen anybody play it.

But once I moved to California, it seemed like somebody was playing it at every gaming get together. And I have no recollection of when I started playing it, but I know I've played it several times for the last 20 years. - Right. And Dave, I was in a similar boat as yours in that I had heard a lot about this game, but I couldn't track down a copy. It was out of print.

And then there was the opportunity to pick up the decennial edition, which was released in '96, which is kind of funny in that the original game was released in '95. So they, I guess they were a year late on actually getting it out. That was my first chance to play it was when I picked up a copy of the decennial edition. - Well, now there seems to be a discrepancy. So my edition is '96 and the decennial was '06. But BGG does say '05.

So maybe it came out in '05 in Germany and we didn't get English issues. - It did. Hans and Rook released it in '95. In Rio Grande, I think came out with a version. - So maybe we didn't get Rio Grande, yeah. - And at the time, you know, I thought I really liked area control games. And I just remember one, I thought I knew area control. And then I had played things like Manhattan was one that was pretty popular at the time.

And then there's no one we'll talk about later, or at least that I'll bring up later, that I really enjoyed. And then El Grande was that and then more because of its unique bidding mechanism of trying to choose between the power card that you played so that you could take the action cards earlier versus the number of Caballeros that you were able to pull into your courts. So I thought that balance mechanism was really intriguing and challenging compared to what I had known before.

So it's also one of these games that is talked about as being play with five, like perhaps only play with five. And we've talked about a couple of those on previous podcasts. Why is the five player game so good here? - Well, there's five action cards to choose from. And if you play with less players, there's nothing in the rules about changing those piles at all. So there's always gonna be five action cards to choose from in the base game.

And so in a five player game, that means every single action you see is going to happen and you can plan the power card you play around that. - Well, that makes a lot of sense. - Yeah, it's one of those that I was told early on as well that this is only play at five game. And I never really did some self-interspection as to that. I have played it at four and it plays well at four, but I think Paul's right, at five, the full game is activated.

And it for not as much as Almond Ray, but kind of along those lines where you're not playing 100% of the game. - Yeah, I would agree with that. - Hey, what about before we go on? 'Cause so Chromer and Ulrich, they got a Holy Trinity that kind of came out around this time. And I'm curious to see, 'cause they did this obviously El Grande, Princess of Florence and El Caballero. I have never played El Caballero, even though the box looks almost exactly the same as this box.

It's Chromer and Ulrich like I always felt like I should, but I've never played it. Have you either of you? - I declined an answer on the grounds that I might incriminate myself. - Oh, okay. (laughs) I gotcha. We can just cut that part out then. (laughs) - No, I mean, I theoretically have a copy. I'm not sure I could put my hands on it, but if you wanna actually give it a shot, I will search it out. - I am confident I've never played El Caballero. - I have not logged a play of it.

And as I'm looking at it, it looks familiar enough that I remember sitting down and like going through the rules, but I've never actually played it. - It was kind of back in the days when if they wanted, they would just make a new similar game. Whereas today, we just get Argentina. It would be like El Grande, Argentina, El Grande, New York. - Well, what did you mean, Dave, when you said they were on a roll? Because most people have heard of Francis of Florence and El Grande.

Why do you lump El Caballero in with those two? - Because I've never played El Caballero, but in my mind, it's almost a grail game. Although it seems so close to El Grande, I never went out of my way to seek it out. So maybe not a holy grail. But it just seemed like, you know, these two people put out basically three games. There might be a fourth game in there. - Merchants of the Middle Ages. - Oh, okay.

Well, I always very specifically associated these three games and that could be based off of nothing at all. - Oh, interesting. You know, I just looked up El Caballero and it's assigned to the same game family as El Grande. I guess it's considered a sequel. - Yeah. - Oh, okay, merchants of the Middle Ages. Okay, that's interesting in that it is the revised name of Dee Handler. - Oh, okay. - Which is a game I have played. And so, yeah, that's a good one too. You're right, they were on a run.

- Yeah, and then the artwork is similar to something that you guys just talked about recently. Same artist as St. Petersburg. - Yeah, you're right. Doris with House was also the artist on the original St. Pete's. - And they both get a lot of flax, St. Pete's and El Grande, but I happen to love it. The primitive kind of style that I find they're very unique to the game. I've got enough flashy games to me. And it's probably just sentimental connection, but I love them both.

- They're both really good. - Yeah, I've never had a problem with the artist style. - Most people hate them. If you look it up. - I think it's a during, especially St. Petersburg, most people like actively hate them. - All right, we already talked about that one. - All right, I wasn't here for that. - Is El Grande on the Mount Rushmore of area majority or area control, area influence, whichever version of that you prefer? Is it in the top four games of that type? What are the candidates?

- Yeah, that's actually a sticky question because El Grande does what previously only like politically based games did in that. It allows points for second, third place. I think most of its contemporary area control games were all or nothing. Only the one with the most in that region gets points or even gets to keep their pieces there. - So because of that, I would definitely put Democker on that mountain. - Wow, okay.

- It's been so long since I played Democker, I can't agree with or deny that comment. (both laughing) It's been probably almost 20 years. - It's the epitome of a board game about parliamentary government. (both laughing) - Yeah, right. Also has the distinction of having game ID number one on board game geek. Okay, so you'd put that on the mountain. - Any others that you would recommend? - Yeah, what about you Dave? - Yeah, I would absolutely put it on the mountain.

In fact, when you say area control game, it's the first game that I think of and kind of looking through, actually they call it area majority influence on BGG. There's no area control category, but that's what we always just called it for years. But area majority does kind of have more implications to it than I do like. But when I look through the list of the top area majority games, I haven't played a lot of them much less than I expected.

And the ones that I have, I've played, I've played Tammany Hall once, and I barely remember it. And there's a few of the top of those types of games. I just, turns out I'm not a big fan, as much as I like this game. - Right. - One of the things about area control, I remember playing chaos in the old world years ago. And as I recall, that has an all or none sort of thing. And I remember investing heavily into a region. And then somebody just like, oh, I got this card. And I can do this thing.

You didn't even know anything about it. Now you get nothing. And that's so deflating. Although that happens to us in Dune Imperium, but it's so deflating to invest so much into something and to get sideswiped. And like, you just get nothing instead of, you know, second constellation wise away. - Right. I think along what Dave said, El Grande stands above many of the rest because of its friendliness. And oh, you're in second place. Here you go. Oh, you're in third place.

Here you go. And Dave, I'm surprised you didn't point out the grammatical snafu of calling it area majority when it's actually area plurality, right? - Ah, yeah. Very good. Yeah, you're right. - Chaos in the old world. I mean, the fact that it's been out of print for a long time, it's a great game for a lot of folks. That one is in a separate category because it was one of the most asymmetric games that I had ever played going into it before asymmetry was cool, right?

So depending on which of the old gods you were, you had either sacrifice so many of your own characters or if you were the pestilence one, you could infect so many of the regions. Each of you had your own path to victory. So that was a really novel. So I'm not sure I would put it on the mountain, but it was really-- - Truly, but it kind of carried on. I mean, it really developed, but it is in the same line of risk and before it diplomacy. - Right.

- Where each person can only, or each region can only have the pieces of a single player. - Right. - But comparing that region is the area control that we've been talking about. So I don't know. Do you think diplomacy is an exemplar of area control? - Well, risk, we were chatting about risk earlier. And in that case, when you're looking at the continents, it's not just a majority. That's totality, you have to have them all.

Yeah, and you get the reward for completely controlling Asia or whatever it is. But in some ways, yeah, this takes that concept and like Paul was saying, makes it softer that we can both be in the region, we can both get something for it, which is kind of nice because, all right, I got four Cabayeros there. I'll take second place, no big deal. I'll go focus my efforts elsewhere. And it does make it, as cutthroat as this can be, it does make it kind of friendlier in some ways.

- So let's pause here. We'll come back to the mountain. I think there'll be opportunities for us to nominate other games as we continue talking. - I mean, along with the lines of what Dave said, I don't even think of it as an area control game. I think of it as an investment game. Right, so continued. - To me, when I'm thinking about how to play El Grande, I think of the provinces as like my debt or my IPO shares and I can issue them to get things into the court, which would be my free cashflow.

And then I can spend those on the regions to gain points. And so I never think about really getting first in a region to get the highest pad on the scoreboard. I think about my return on investment. How many Cabayeros do I have to invest from my court to get this many points? And that's how I play the game. - Right. So then what is the rule of thumb that you follow there as far as how many is too many or what's the return that you're looking to get?

- Gosh, that is a loaded question because it really depends on the players. I remember in the game we just played online, somehow Greg and I got into an escalation match where I think I had eight Cabayeros in the central region. And he went up to nine and it's definitely, I'm like, what are we doing? - Right. - So when I saw that there was a entry card to move five of my Cabayeros, I kind of cackled with Glee and I just got five of them out of that region.

I'm like, you can have it nine to three. I'm out of here. - Right. - You got them to way over invest. - Well, I was telling Todd a little bit before we started that I was looking at the numbers. There are 10 regions and each region is-- - Counting the Castillo, right? - Counting the Castillo, yeah. Each region is roughly nine points are available, averaging to a little over nine points.

There's a total of 94 points out there and that's before shenanigans of the little scoring placards and things coming out. But so each scoring round, about 94 points are gonna be divvied up between five players. So I think whenever way you do it, you're shooting to get 20 points. 'Cause if you don't get 20 points, I think you're falling behind a curve. - To me, I shoot to invest as much as possible.

So I guess it depends on the phase of the game, but for me, the early game is all about getting the maximum number of Caviaros out there. And then I worry about points after the halfway point. - So you're building your engine by getting the Caviaros out on the board? - Yeah, I'm also avoiding the lead. (laughing) Yeah. You know, I wrote this down. There's an old Japanese proverb. The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.

I find that in five player game with direct conflict, like this one, I really don't like to have an early lead. - Yeah, I was gonna say that there is a lot of direct conflict in this game. I mean, those cards that come out, so many of them have ways to mess with somebody. And in this game in particular, when you're the leader, you are catching almost all of the flak, if not all of it. (laughing) - Yes. - At the same time though, would you rather be up 15 points or trying to catch up 15 points?

- It depends what turn it is. - Yeah. (laughing) Turn four, I think I'd rather be trying to catch up, but turn seven, I'd rather be the lead. - Yeah, that's interesting. - They are always to protect it. But yeah, when you've got four players coming at you with all of their attack cards, that's gonna start to beat up on you pretty quick. - Right. And you can be settling for a second.

So if you jump out to an early lead, you're no longer trying to have the top score in any of the provinces, but I think as long as you're able to get something, you're nursing the lead more than you are trying to extend the lead, 'cause extending is gonna be really difficult to do with everyone gunning for you. - Yeah, it's interesting. I've had success just trying to win first and three regions. And I've also had success trying to get second in five or six regions.

- First and three regions is more than your share. So I think that's, I mean, that's definitely a great goal that that can be tough to do. But if you can pull it off, I think that you become the one to beat 'cause there's only 10 regions. So if you get three of them in a five player game, you've got more than your share, even if one of them's a four region or something like that. - Right.

- So when we were talking about area majority, there's the, we've talked about this before in games, the grand auction theory. And this started me thinking about it in another dimension is that, you know, the grand auction theory that everything's an auction. And area majority or plurality or how we're gonna put it definitely falls in that way is that I'm bidding this much of this resource for this reward.

And it started to go into perspective for me when I thinking about area majority is just adding a dimension, adding the dimension of space. - Right. - You're bidding in space rather than a linear bid in modern art, I just bid an amount. - Right. - In this game, I'm bidding an amount and a location. And just kind of, that's what starts to separate it, you know? And then over time as well, when you've got three scoring rounds, now I'm bidding an amount and a location and over time. - There you go.

- So we just continue to add dimensions to it. So I think it just makes it up. - So you're saying it's just really fancy battle line. - Yeah. (all laughing) - Right. - Right. - Should we do an episode on battle line? (all laughing) - I mean, I'm timing or whatever you want to do. Could we like talk, could we actually get through an hour about that game? (all laughing) - Sure. - Dave could.

(all laughing) - But you're right in that the time is the third dimension because you are looking forward, you know, basically you have three rounds to prepare for. But even beyond the scoring round thing, there's the power of the cards, right? Like, if I play the lowest card, I'm going to get to go first in the next round and now I can play the highest card and I can capture the action card that I want. And that double card play is huge. - Very brass-like, right?

That we see that in brass as well when you go that last, the first, back to back. - I think most games, especially control games like this, in brass is kind of a control game. You want to take a double turn. That's going to be super powerful whenever you can do it. - Right, yeah. - But that's just another dimension to the decisions here, which is, I think what makes it so interesting.

- I think a lot of people focus on getting that double turn during a scoring round so they can guarantee themselves the king. But if you're counting cards, you can do it thinking, hey, I haven't seen very many special scoring cards. I think one's going to come up to score all the five regions for sure next time. So I'm going to make sure that I play the lowest card and have an option to take that special scoring card.

- Yep. - So you're saying that it's good to know the cards that could come out? - Certainly. - If you want to play at a high level, definitely. - And there aren't that many cards to learn. I mean, they fall into the categories of move, Caballeros, score, or attack your opponents. - Right. - And there's a lot of duplicates. So there's what, 44 cards total, or 45, 'cause one of them's just the king card that's out there all the time. 44 cards, but a ton of them are duplicates.

So there aren't a ton of cards that you need to learn. You just need to get an idea of what's in each deck. - Mm-hmm. Yeah, and something I didn't even realize, the first, I don't know, a dozen times I've played the game, is you can pick a card and just say, I'm refusing to do this action. I took this card to prevent you guys from using it on me. - Absolutely, yeah. - Now that I know about it, I don't know if I've ever done that though. - Yeah, I mean, you got it.

Use it against somebody, even if you picked it to defend yourself from it, having it be used against you. - We're looking at it. - Well, I think the most pertinent example is that decay of authority card, which takes away. - Oh, yeah. - That one. - All of your, all of your court caviaros and puts them back in the provinces. - Yeah, it does. (both laughing) - Poor Todd. (both laughing) - Well, I was thinking about it in lines of like score the five regions.

If I'm not getting as much points as the people in front of me in scoring would be getting, I might pick that one, move my caviaros and choose not to do the action. So I'm just taking that action out of the game. - Okay. - Right. - You know, if I'm in the lead with, you know, another player and he's gonna get two scores and I'm gonna get one, then let's just put this one, discard this one without it triggering. - Well, I think a very salient point there is, are you gonna get any?

Because if you're gonna get any, then it's probably worth doing it. - Since you're gonna put yourself ahead of the majority of players, assuming a five player game. - Well, there are, I think, four regions that score five. So I can think of a lot of combinations where other people are getting more points than I am, that where it really matters. - Okay. - But most of the regions score, well, not most of them. Now plurality of majorities got me on this table.

(both laughing) Some of the 10 regions. (both laughing) There are more that are five than any other number, five being the top number. - Right. - There's like one seven, is it two sixes and then... - Yeah. - Some fours and a three maybe? No, I don't think there's a three. - This is the three, but yeah. - Well, and I like odd how to question on the prep, consolidation versus diversity. And I guess we kind of addressed that. - By the way, that's Paul's question.

- Well, my initial instinct going into this game when I first started playing is diversify. But I don't think that's the solution because 10 regions, I've got 30 cubes. Complete diversification means I got three cubes in each region and I don't think that went to the game. 'Cause you're not gonna win any of those regions. - Well, I mean, the Castillo is special 'cause you get a couple points there and then you go up to six cubes in one region.

- Well, my question on that is, is the Castillo the best place to put your cubes or the worst place to put your cubes? - Yes. (both laughing) - The Castillo's tricky, right? Because you have to either have pencil and paper. So you write down what every cube that goes in there is or a good memory to know who's gonna score and whether or not you should add more to it. And then you have to have a plan of, where do you wanna pile on? Because the Castillo forces you to over commit to a single region.

- Right. - Because the cubes that come out of it after it gets scored go into a single region. - That you select on your little secret disc, yeah. - Right, but theoretically you can calculate what everybody has in there, right? Because the number of remaining cubes they have in front of them plus the cubes they have deployed on the board is open information. - Oh my god, that's brilliant. (both laughing) - Yeah, I thought it was hidden trackable. It turns out not hidden trackable.

- Oh, just out in the open and trackable, yeah. - Solvable, oh my gosh. - Never. (both laughing) - Right. (both laughing) - All right, well, if that's the case, why even? I mean, it should just be made a Plexiglass at that point, like let's just see what's in there. (both laughing) Already. - There should be a tracking counter somewhere on the board, right? - Yeah, 'cause it's already favoring memory if you're not doing those calculations and I don't like that because my memory is terrible.

(both laughing) And there are some people who can naturally, but yeah. So it's open information, you know. The Castillo is just for fun. (both laughing) - All right, well, let's move on to the prompts as we talk about this classic. The Wave in Complexity on Board Game Geek Scale of one to five, which also aligns with Complexity on Board Game Arena, where you can play this game online. How would you rate the weight of El Grande? Dave, why don't you get us started?

- I'm gonna give it an OG3, which is a little different from a straight three. - Yeah, let's hear it. - An OG3 is, (both laughing) the rules overhead is not burdensome at all. Very simple rules, very straightforward, newbie can play. I mean, there are some nuances you wanna know, but a newbie can play it right out, but the depths of understanding the timing or what's capable or learning those cards, there is a little more overhead there. So that kind of puts it into the soft three.

- Interesting, so OG means soft. - Well, no, OG and the rules overhead is low, but the gameplay is higher than the rules overhead, whereas I feel like these days we see a lot of games that the complexity is a five because I got a 40 page rule book of just stuff happening, but the gameplay is actually just kind of basic. - Right, yeah, that's a good description, I like that. Paul, how about you? How would you rate the complexity of this game? - I think it's a two, it's very straightforward.

I have never really referenced the rules or never get confused about a card's effect. - Right, I saw out thinking that this game is a two until you start knowing what you're doing and then it becomes a three. Because of those, like you said, Dave, the ramifications of understanding what is a fairly simple rule set really extrapolates itself into additional layers that add weight to the game. So for me, it's a three.

Strategy, how much opportunity is there for strategy and long-term planning in this game? (laughing) - In gold, underlined. - For me, it's a two. The multiplayer chaos just makes it impossible to plan beyond the next scoring round, in my opinion. And so the only long-term planning you have is managing your power cards and maybe your court versus provinces. You know, I think there are rare games if you're counting cards where a whole bunch of stuff you're waiting to see hasn't happened yet.

And so that can certainly increase the amount of strategy. But most of the time, I still stand by it too. - Right, yeah, I agree with that. Especially if we're playing it as a pretty much five-player-only game. In the two or three player, I think there's a little, you have a little more control over your own destiny. But in a five-player game, it gets pretty chaotic. Anyway, so there's some basic strategic points to keep in mind.

But for the most part, you're kind of flying by the seat of your pants as tactically as the game goes. - Right, you're taking advantage of those tactical opportunities. So strategy, there's not a lot of room for it unless your strategy is to remember to be tactical. But with that said, I agree, I had it down as a two as well. There's just not a lot of opportunity for long-term strategy.

And if you try, that usually is the path to ruin because you're gonna be missing out on the scoring opportunities that present themselves in the false belief that you're gonna be able to acquire a bunch of Caballeros in your court and then deploy them, but then watch them get sent back by the play of a card. So then luck. How much do you think luck plays a factor? Let's go with the scale, same scale, one to five. I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on this one.

- Well, I'll go first here. I mean, I think of it as a two. You're managing your own hand as far as your initiative or, you know, eternal order kind of thing. Most of that information is right up front for you. And maybe when you play your number one card and then back to back with your 13 card and then you get maybe flop, not some great cards, you could call that bad luck. But I think for the most part, you know, the experience player is gonna more likely beat the new player.

And I think the game itself, the way the cards come out is not really gonna affect that all that much. I think you can work around that. - Right, I had it down as a one because I mean, the game's not purely deterministic, but there's just, there's not a lot of room for luck in this one. - Yeah. - And I suspect that maybe why it always writes highly with the OG gamers guild is that there is not a lot of luck.

It's got that-- - Well, is it luck when your neck and neck with somebody and a third player decides to attack the other guy instead of you? - No. - Is it-- - Is that the game's luck? - Is it luck when the player to your left and the player to their left always seem to be playing the lowest power cards? So you're always getting to go second or third on your power card plays? - I don't know. - Yeah. - This was a hard one for me. I decided to give it a two as well, Steve.

- Okay, hard to stay on that one. - The other players, maybe that falls under chaos. I mean, that's part of its five player peers of the time. You know, Puerto Rico, Princess of Florence, those games that they play from three to five. - Right. - Five is great, but the chaos is higher where the players start to really mess with each other in unknowing ways and your own agency. - Yeah, I guess the main luck of the game is which two cards in each stack never show up. - Right. - Yeah. - Right.

- But is that enough randomness or luck to warrant a score of two? Which, in my book, it wasn't. But I understand what you're saying. - If you have less than five players, I think it definitely is. (both laughing) - That's a great, that's a great point. I didn't think about how that would change based on player count, but you're right. - Yeah. - So then theme. How much do we think the theme has been integrated with the game versus pasted on? Theme scale one to five.

- I've given this yet another two, right? All twos. I think the theme is implemented well, but as I said, for me, it's an investment game. - Yeah. I'm pretty, I'm pretty generous giving it a two. Like no one is here to live out the conquest of El Cid. Like you're not really feeling this like medieval Spain vibe. - Right. - I think they could've put it in France and called it Legerand. It would feel the same. (both laughing) Right? Or like Paul said, it's an investment game.

You could put it in a stock market. You could do anything with this. And it's gonna be the same. I enjoy the theme 'cause I enjoy the primitive artwork. Like we said, I don't wanna have very many other games that I can remember set in medieval Spain. The theme's not informing the mechanisms. It's not like you're a big El Cid scholar. I've got the game for you. You know, it's not that kind of thing. (both laughing) Right, I also had it down as a two.

Look, it's a thinly veiled area majority game that could be set anywhere. Like you said, I do like the idea of one attack cards is called Intrigue, right? They're trying to give it some of that flavor. And how many times do you get to say Caballeros in a game? Well, not a lot. So, you know, I'll be gracious and give it a bump there. But overall, I don't think the theme's a big part of this game. So then favorite player count. We've talked about it already.

I don't think our answers will have changed. But the best number of players for this game would be five. Yeah, I mean, we've said it, but we can codify it here. And it's five, yeah. All right, so the least favorite player count could still be a good game at that range. Although I tend to think that that's not the case here. So mine is not five. That's enough. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. (both laughing) There's five and then there's everything else. Yeah. Okay, that's funny.

I mean, I had it at two. Like, I wouldn't even bother trying to play this game at two, but I like not five a lot. (both laughing) Well, and we talked about this with Almond Ray. Almond Ray, to me, is a five-player-only game. And I don't know how many other five-player-only games are out there, but these two in particular. I don't think it's a terrible game at four, but I've got plenty of other games to play at four.

So this is... Don't we see that Princess of Florence is also another only play at five game? Yeah. I like it at five. I don't know about only. The jugglers are way too powerful when you have less than five players. That's true. Yeah. But it's an auction game. So that should balance, right? They should just go for more. I don't know.

We'd have to get into depth about Princess of Florence, but I would think that should balance-- I mean, the problem with all auction games is whoever goes last to win the auction pays a minimum value. Yes, right. So if there is still a great thing on offer for them, they're gonna get a steal. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe Princess of Florence is five-player-only. I don't know. We should play all four games in one night. 'Cause, well, Puerto Rico may be better at four.

Five, you lose a little too much agency, but at least-- Puerto Rico on the list. What, right? Puerto Rico. That's not a five-only. I've never considered it a such-- No, but you're right. It's not five-player-only. In fact, I think that might be best at four. All right, actual playing time. Boxes can lie. And this one, I think it was 60 to 120. What are your thoughts about the playing time? Does that seem like an appropriate estimation? I guess I feel like five-players is always around two hours.

If not a little bit more. But I don't have a lot of tracked time on this to validate that. It's just a feeling. Likewise. Same here. But, you know, it's special shout-out to the set-up time. What's that? Two minutes? Three minutes? Right. Oh, my gosh. Here's your cubes. Let's go. That part's fantastic. So then, which edition is the best? We've talked a little bit about the artwork on the first edition or version. Yeah, apparently, Dave's saying most people are going to like the brand new one.

I think so. I think it looks good. Yeah, it looks fine. It's not an abomination like we've seen in other reprints. I've been playing this game for 20 years, though, so my nostalgia prevents me from giving it unbiased answer. Yeah. I mean, I think the answer is historically, the best edition is whatever edition you can get your hands on, because it had been hard to get a hold of over the years.

But at this point, and which is still true, so the best edition is going to be the one that you can buy online right now, or you know, or in your local store. But yeah, because I don't think they changed anything about the game. They just bundled some of the expansions right with the different editions. But you can still play with the base game. Right. And they had done the same thing with the decennial edition, is that it had a lot of the expansions bundled in with it.

Yeah. Although that was really a weird time. I can tell you that the two games that came out at about the same time were the decennial edition of El Grande, and then also the reprint of Goa. And Rio Grande had just started experimenting with sending their production to China. And those two games specifically just had this real weird feel to them. Like they were somehow, the cardboard was more flimsy. The cards warped a lot more easily and felt rubbery.

It was just, they were two games that came out that were weirdly produced. My recollection of the Goa reprint was that they decided to fiddle with it and try and air quotes fix it. Yeah. Well, there was this printing, and then they actually came out with a revised edition that had it. So there was one that was in between the two. Oh. And I went out of my way to source one of the original Goa copies from before then. And then I didn't bother picking up the revised edition.

But we could talk about Goa on a subsequent episode if you guys are interested. I would love to. I love that game. And then Goa, that was a point in my board gaming life of where my innocence was lost. That was the first game that I got. I got my copy and not too long after they said, here's a fixed version of it. We fixed everything that was wrong with it. And it just really bummed me. And now that happens all the time. And new edition comes now. You know, that just used to it.

It's part of the course now. But at that time, I'm not-- Or games on a software, they'll patch it. And I'm having a tough enough time buying all the games that I want. Now I've got to buy some again to get the better version, the fixed version. So that was definitely an innocence lost point in my game and career. Great story. Yeah. You know, one game that's been doing it right is Dominion.

Yeah. So Donald Lex has been going through and revisiting, retuning a lot of the original game and the expansions. And he ends up having them produce a small just the cards. I mean, it's all just cards. But just like the ones that change versions. So you don't need all of the supporting gold and estates and everything like that. So they make a version for people to update their copies without having to buy an entirely new copy of that. He does that well. Yeah. Awesome.

So best edition, we're saying we like the old one because we're curmudgeons. And we have nostalgia for the old ones that we have. No, pretty much. My answer is whichever one you get your hands on because they're not that different. We have nostalgia for the old one. But the new one's fine. The old one also has the wooden Castillo. The new one has a back cardboard dice tower looking Castillo. It's pretty cool though, it has a gate.

You pull the gate up and then all your, you know, they all tumble out. But still I like my the wooden one. I think the art on the new one is particularly good. All that reminds me of Lagrangea. If you guys are familiar with that one. Yeah. Lagrangea. I will say that the new one is color blind aware. Yeah. Oh, OK. So there are suits that go along with the colors. Right. And they make sure that everything is very distinct, even for the color blind. Well, that's really just the components, right?

The bits and the board. I mean, the color of the regions as well, but yes. Yeah, because I did notice they color the regions. But in our old edition, the regions are all the same color. And sometimes it's hard to, if you're not used to the board, it's hard to tell the difference. Yeah. Not that a few plays won't fix though. Right. So expansions, I don't have a lot of experience with the expansions on this one.

Speaking of at least talk about the major ones, there's intrigue in the king, where each player creates their own deck of action cards that they're going to use during the game. So there is no more contesting over turn order so much as getting lucky enough to draw the right action card on your next turn and pre-planning. So I think if you like deck building, this is an early form of deck building as an expansion to the game. So do you use the power cards at all?

You still need them for moving your provinces to the courts. And I guess turn order, but not turn order as far as choosing the cards. You have the 13 action cards you're going to be able to select from. And you choose which one to play you crowned. I guess the only interesting part about it, to me, is that each action card has a number on it. And whoever plays the highest action card instead of doing that action, they take the king card. OK.

OK. Yeah, so somebody has to take the king card every time. Whoever plays the highest action card number gets the king card and whoever plays the lowest action card number gets the entry card. And those are separate, always available cards that will be activated in addition to your actions every turn. OK. It basically combines the power cards with the action cards. And so everybody has their own. And you're not revealing what actions are going to happen every turn and fighting over them.

You're just pre-planning, ha, ha, ha. I'm going to be able to do all these things during the game and nobody else is going to know. And then it unfolds that way. OK. Then there's the grand inquisitor in the colonies, which I haven't played. It adds a bunch of regions, I think, four additional regions. It adds three additional stacks of cards. So I see it is making a five-player game feel like a three-player game. And that's why I haven't played it.

Yeah. And then there's grandissimo, which I've played several times. It adds Portugal. It adds a grandissimo stack of action cards. And those can allow you to send caviaros to jail or activate ships to do other things. And it really adds additional ways to foil your opponent's plans. So it adds more conflict to the game. But in the rules for grandissimo, they say, we feel that these components will add to your enjoyment. If some do not, please eliminate them.

So an early version of a modular expansion. Yeah, it's the least intrusive. It really-- I don't know. I remember people that I played with at the time enjoying it a lot. I've definitely played with Portugal before, so I've played some version of Grandissimo. That's the grandissimo expansion, yeah. Yeah. In the decennial version of the game, that was just Portugal was printed on the board. When you played that expansion, it was already there. Interesting.

Paul, out of your experience playing with grandissimo, would you say that it must include? No. I think it can be interesting, though. I would say the base game is such a focused design that I would expect most groups to get the most fun out of just playing the base game. All right. We could just cut and paste that comment onto this category in every game. [LAUGHTER] That's basically what we always say about it, because the base game is so good, all this other stuff is just stuff.

Terraforming Mars is the exception that breaks the rule there. No, you're definitely right. There's a few essentials, and that's definitely one of them. But for the most part-- That's coming up on a future episode. Who wants to play his 13 card here to go first on most recognizable comparison, the highest drinking game that is most like this one? I will. I already mentioned it. I'm picking Demarker. OK. Good one.

It's-- the area majority is basically how many votes you're getting, and then it's extremely difficult to get a majority of votes in each region. So you're wheeling and dealing with other players to add different colored votes together to create that majority in the parliamentary election. Do we need to play that again? It's been, like I said, maybe-- well, probably '08. If you don't-- if you take a viewpoint of I don't care whether I win or lose, it's quite fun.

That's how I play most games these days. [LAUGHTER] Out of necessity, I had to just enjoy the journey. Demarker's not fun if he played a win, but it's fun if you play to experience it. Well, you can go next, Todd, because it sounds like you're afraid somebody's going to step on your answer. Well, I think I'm going to step on not your answer for this one, but I'm going to step on your answer for the next one.

Oh. Because my first choice here, for most recognizable comparison, is a bit of a cheat, because it's the higher ranking version of an older, well-loved classic. We're going to be talking about two different games. Oh, we are? OK, because my choice is Shogun, which is a remake of Wallenstein. And that was area control with that amazing tower that you used to determine the outcome of conflicts for each of the regions.

Yes, so I was talking to Dave about this, and I didn't even consider the cubes to be area control. To me, it's the structures that you built. Oh, OK. Yeah, the cubes are how you take control of the regions to get the majority of structures in that larger area. But yeah, it totally fits. Well, the reason I said we're talking about two totally different games is because my answer for less recognizable is Wallenstein, not Shogun. OK. [LAUGHTER] But yes, they are close enough.

You played your one card here on this round, so we'll let you go first on the next one. So what was your most recognizable comparison? Mission Red Planet. So Mission Red Planet. Although I might be cheating on this, because I think second edition-- no, first edition is not ranked in the top 750 games, but second edition is. But anyways, it's basically Citadel's Meets El Grande. Citadel's is a game that I like, but it has a fatal flaw with the Warlord that just drags it out.

Without the Warlord, that could have been a good game. A 30-minute, maybe 45-minute game, that would have been fine. But the Warlord just absolutely makes the game unplayable. But anyway, so this does not have that, and you're using your powers from the people that you're playing, the roles that you're choosing from and playing to send rockets to the moon or to Mars, and take control of certain areas of Mars. So it is a blend of the two games.

By the way, you know that there's an expansion to Citadel's called the Dark City that gives you alternate characters you can use for each one of the things. So you could take the Warlord out. Yeah, I forget what the alternate is for the Warlord. But yeah, it definitely needs something like that or something the way Dominion goes where you can start to pick and choose your roles and just get rid of those that they're gonna draw the game out. 'Cause that has a jump on the leader kind of thing.

They could put the game into Stasis for a long time. Yeah, so Mission Red Planet is your choice for most recognizable, and you've got Wall-E for your less recognizable. Did you have a backup? Nope. Nope. Tell us about Wall-E and what you like about it. Well, you know, it's dudes on a map fighting for control of various regions. It's just that the scoring comes from the buildings, not necessarily the dudes.

So I think that's a rookie mistake that people get into when they're playing Wallenstein as you would approach El Grande. And you're like, I've got a bunch of people in this region, but it doesn't mean anything if they didn't build a cathedral or if you didn't overtake somebody else's castle because that's in the end, that's really all that matters. Right. So when you are thinking about it as an area majority game, it does get much closer to El Grande.

But there's a lot more going on whereas El Grande would be closer to a pure area majority type game. There's a lot more going on with Wallenstein that just makes it a different enough experience. But I love that game, as you know. Right. So does it belong on Mount Rushmore? I hadn't thought about that. Of area control? Yeah, I said we're gonna come back to it. Maybe not because I think there's more to it than area majority. I mean, there obviously there is to El Grande too.

Not really, El Grande is almost 100% area control, right? Yeah, I mean, it's really focused. Well, that's what I'm saying. And I think Wallenstein, there's a lot more to it than just the area control portion of it. Right. There's managing your economy and, you know, conflict. A lot of games are like that where area control is just a backseat to whatever else they're doing. Right, right. Okay, so let's recognize we'll comparison. I'll go in the middle here again.

We'll say that I'm just playing my sixes and sevens. So I'm gonna go into the wayback machine for this one back to 2001. One of the best three player area control games out there. And it has the eye cut, you choose mechanism that I adore but it just doesn't see a lot of inclusion in games. And this would be San Marco by Ellen R. Moon. Yeah, I don't recall that game. Well, the next time that we're just down to three for game night, I will bring it along 'cause it's pretty amazing.

Oh, scratch that. I recognize it. That's the bridges one. Yes. And you're moving the doge around to score the different regions when you're ready for it. So Paul, what was your less recognizable comparison game? For me, it is Tammany Hall, which I actually prefer to El Grande. It's extremely similar. Instead of every three rounds, you score every four rounds. You tabulate votes and the goal is to become the mayor of New York. And it's not night's fighting.

It's Bob Bosses and people who vote more than one. It's not El Grande, it's the dawn. (laughing) I think I just, I love the theme of Tammany Hall and gameplay is very similar in a lot of aspects to El Grande. Nice. Tammany Hall is not in the top 750, I guess. No, it is ranked 875 right now. Wow. That is right. I mean, it was released in 2007. So you know how BGG works. The ratings slowly fall over time. You ride, but what is El Grande ranked right now? It's a 87. 92. 92, I'm shocked.

You know, Kinesia doesn't even have a game in the top 100. He does not. And this is, this is in the top 100. That amazes me that because I think are those legacy ratings or do they decay over time? And should they decay over time? I don't know, but I just think it's so interesting that all of the games that have fallen out of the top 100, 100, El Grande is there. It's like, are people playing this game? Right. Well, you measured the plays, didn't you? I did, I did.

So on board game arena, I looked at the online plays. Since April of '22 when El Grande was released on BGA, it's had 19,408 games played. And the comparison was to St. Pete's, which has been around since December of 2020. So it's had, you know, a year and three months longer, but St. Pete's is at 618,608 plays. So not a lot of people are playing El Grande right now, comparatively speaking. And yet it's hanging on in the top 100. Yeah, like I said, it definitely has a strong following.

Let's see here. House rules, how would you improve this game? I don't know, but to me, there must be a way to make it better for two, three or four players. Oh, okay, maybe reduce the action card decks by certain amounts of rewards or known cards in there. Or make some regions unplayable, I don't know. Right, I like that idea. Mine was, we've already talked about, and that was just having some public counter available for the number of Caballeros in the Castillo.

Yeah, I was thinking comments or giggles about the King Pawn, you have to move a Caballero from your court to the province. 'Cause it's really getting old at this point. It's just really getting old. No, for reals though, mine is open info Castillo. 'Cause it is, I was thinking it was hidden trackable. Now that you tell me it's just open information by subtracting the cubes you see, you know, from 30. (laughing) There's no reason to have everything in the Caballero.

It's open information, why make it hard to figure it out. Right, all right. If this game is being played a game night, what do you wanna play afterwards? What's the best double feature game that goes along with it? Well, I'll keep it in that wheelhouse and pick one of those other fiveers we were talking about and I'll go Prince as a Florence. Oh, good one, okay. We got five people, which four is easy to get. I feel like we have four a lot and we have six more than we have five.

But that might not be true, but it just feels that way. But we got five. I love your idea, Dave. I said any auction game. I can't really think of what I prefer to play. I just, after a game of all grande, I just feel like playing an auction game. So the first one that came to mind was Agestim, but I think Prince as a Florence actually fits a lot better. Or Modern Art, if you wanna go auction, plays well at five.

Nah, I feel like I've gotta come up with the reason why I didn't pick a five player game. So one of our folks typically leaves after the first game of the evening. (both laughing) So I only have to accommodate four people in my second game here. And I was thinking something a little bit more lightweight, but kind of in the same vein. And I was thinking maybe Samurai, or we've had a few games of Babylonia lately that I think Babylonia would be a nice follow-up to El Grande. I like that.

Samurai is three player only, right? No, Samurai is two to four. You're looking it up, but it is. It's two to four. 'Cause there's different map configurations that you lay out for two players, three players, or four players. E is right. I sit corrected. Well, how about this just for no reason at all, just because I've really been wanting to play it and I love the game. Yeah, let's hear it. How about Attica? Oh, Attica. Okay. I love that game.

I can't think of why it would need to be played after this, but I just love that game. No, I, your house, your rules. Yeah. Wait, that was a previous question. Get those AMP for us, yeah. Yeah, get those AMP for us. You know, I love that game, too. I'm glad you brought this one up, 'cause there's a dynamic to Attica that is more visceral than in any other game, and that is you have to stop the person that comes after you.

And knowing that, I think, last time you and I played this day, it was a three-player game with Greg, and it was like, yeah, I know Greg's about ready to go on this big run, but I don't have to worry about him, 'cause he's sitting to my right, so I'm gonna go do my own thing and leave it on your plate to be the one that has to stop Greg. Yep. And do you feel that that same dynamic is present in El Grande, or is it just everybody can take potshots at the leader so it doesn't really apply?

I think that's one of the reasons it's a good five-player game is because I can't keep all of you in check. So there's a little bit of emerging alliances, although I wouldn't really put that as a mechanism in the game, is that I need you guys to take care of, my cover errors over here, the Kings is in not a position where I can do anything about it, whatever the case is. I need you to take care of that while I take care of this, whereas all five of us we keep each other in check. Right.

Whereas like a two-player game, a three-player game, you have to keep the other players in check entirely to yourself. Like you can't rely on the other players. Okay. What feature of the game still stands out to you? What is still remarkable about El Grande after all this time? 20, what, 28 years? For me, it's the turn order mechanisms. Basically deciding what order you want to play or power cards, which then decide what order you get to do your actions. I love it.

And how many cab I arrows you move from the provinces to the courts? That's part of the calculation, but yeah, I think it's wonderful how there's a double turn order player selection that happens every single round. Right. Yeah, I like that. I had the same thing. That agonizing balance between bidding power and then bringing the cab I arrows in is phenomenal. Well, I want that to be my answer now because you guys are definitely right. I just had the constant direct player interaction.

It's a lean-in game that plays in a common player area, which we see less and less of these days. You know, these days we've got our own player board where we're putting our cab I arrows, but this is played in a common place. A lot of, you know, pointy elbows, a lot going on in that space that we just don't see that as much. So that's what I like that still holds up about it. Well, I want that to be my answer now. 'Cause you're absolutely right. So what feature of the game now disappoints?

What may not have aged as gracefully? The air quotes design considerations for less than five players, which is they pointed out is simply, I totally forgot about this. It's simply if you're at three players, don't score the third place scoreboard. If you're at right, two players, only score the first place scoreboard. Yeah, that's the only consideration for when you have less than five players.

You know, everything I thought of as something that maybe disappoints at my first reaction, the game might disappoint, then immediately I think, no, that's a feature of the game, not a bug. You know, the fact that you can get the rug pulled out from under you, just you send all your cab arrows back to the provinces. And like, that's really kicked to the gut sometimes. But one or two players can fall behind early on, and you're out of the game. There's no catch up mechanism.

There's no, you know, keeping everybody in the game. But again, that's a feature of the game. These days we have catch up mechanisms, and we have, you know, balance tuned to the point of like, why are we bothering to play the game? It's so balanced sometimes. But in these older games, you kind of got to take the good with the bad, and you might just take a kick to the gut, you know, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's gonna happen every once in a while.

So for me, I'm okay with it because, you know, it's a harbinger of those old games, but some people might not like that. - Right. That combined with the high level of conflict, right? - Yeah. - For me, it's the playing time. I mean, I think I can handle the kick to the guts if I'm only invested for an hour. If it's a two and a half hour game, and I've been out of it since turn two or turn three when I had that card dropped on me, then it's like, I'm just going through the motions.

Did El Ronde replace a previous game? I'm gonna go ahead and say on this one, no. I wasn't far enough along in my gaming career to have picked it up and had it replace anything. I got to it fairly early, even when I picked up a copy of the decennial edition. How about you guys? - Yeah, I can't remember. I mean, I could wrongly say it replaced risk, but I just can't remember. - Well, I do have an answer for this, and for me, it replaced Tikal.

'Cause Tikal is an area control game that I played quite a bit of. And I do like the game, though I fully recognize its flaws. There's a ton of downtime, a ton of AP, a ton of taking back moves, you know, things like that. So I do still like the game, but now that I have El Ronde, I don't think I've played Tikal since. So it's been quite a while since I've played it. - Amen to that. (laughing) - I wanna like that game so much.

I remember playing it and building the pyramids as your exploring and loving it. And then it just grinds to a near halt at the end. - Yeah, it's that the things are calculate enough to where people are just gonna take way too long to take good turns. - Yeah, okay. Has El Ronde since been replaced? And if so, by what? - Go ahead. - I mean, I would say Almond Ray, 'cause when we have five together, we're probably, Almond Ray is gonna come out before El Ronde comes out.

It's when we're thinking an old school five player game, that one has been on the top of the heap for a while. - Very true, Paul? - Oh, well, for me, it's been replaced by everything. (laughing) I honestly, I prefer my area majority games to be two player games. - Got it. - So yeah, I love, say, Twilight Struggle or it's other like games. And I want the area control to be all or nothing. I, the multiplayer chaos, it's not my cup of tea. - Right.

For me, it was replaced by what in my mind is another candidate and in fact is on the Mount Rushmore of area majority games. And that would be Web of Power or China or a Worry. I really enjoy that one a little bit more and it doesn't have the same dynamic that's coming in off the top rope of the action cards as El Ronde. - And it's always under an hour. - And it's always under an hour. Yeah, it's a great one. So here's another one I wanna ask about being possibly on Mount Rushmore.

What do you think about Vinci or Small World? - To me, it's a different kind of game, but I guess it is area majority. I mean, I don't think of it as that. I think of Vinci/Small World, more like you were talking about. Attica, where you're like, oh, I think that person's in the lead. Jump up. Okay, I think you're in the lead now. Jump you. (laughing) Just round and round, musical chairs. That's how every game of it I've played is meant. - Got it. - I agree with that.

It feels more push and pull. It feels more like a tug of war, where I push you back, you push me back. I push you back, you push me back. - All right, is there any control? - Right. Well, I mean, and they don't all have to be the same. So we've got El Grande, we've got Demacher, we've got Web of Power, what's the fourth game on it's on the mountain? - I think it's Tammany Hall, but I'm probably in the minority there.

- That's, I would say Tammany Hall, but now that you say that it's ranked 800 in something, I don't know, that's pretty low. - Is it Blood Rage? Is it Rialto or Belfort? - Not Belfort. - No. - And I dig that game, but like we talked about that one on the previous-- - Yeah, it's like long-time. It's got too much other stuff going on. - Yeah. - In fact, there's so much going on in Belfort, you tend to forget it's an area control game.

(laughing) By the time you've marshaled all of your elves and gnomes and resources, and then you're like, oh yeah, I'm supposed to be building buildings with all of this, in particular sections of the city to have area control. I like it, but it's not on the mountain. We've got one more face.

- It's a tough rush more to come up with, just like I was saying at the beginning, is that I assumed I knew a ton of area majority games, but when I pull up the list of the top area majority games, they're not games that I play it, you know, ton of. - I mean, to be pedantic, that is a list of the top games that use area majority as one facet of the game. - Yeah, right. - That's true. - I mean, do we put dots and boxes up there?

You know, the game where you do the dots and you draw a line and when you get a box, you put your initial in. (laughing) And you get another, when you click a box and then you get another line. - I mean, that's kind of air. You can try. - Oh, man. - Wow. - Looking back to detention. (laughing) You went to detention? (laughing) I don't believe it. I guess we're just gonna have three faces on the mountain for now. If you think of a fourth one before the end of the pod, let me know.

So soundtrack, what music would you want to listen to while playing all the grande? - I don't have a great answer for this. So I'll go first. So I'm just gonna guess, like, I don't know, flamenco. I don't know, I did not have a very solid answer for this.

(laughing) - I mean, I thought about this and the game takes place in the middle ages of Spain, but I really, especially when playing Grandissimo, you know, Grandissimo has a jail and sometimes I can flate the Castillo with Chateau Dif from the Count of Monte Cristo and I love the score from the 2001 movie done by Edward Sheermer. - Okay. - That's what I'd like to listen to. - All right, Dave, well, you'll go ahead and say that I would go with Joaquin Noradrigo and it's Concierto de Aranvas.

And even better, it's a version played by Paco de Lucia, who is a Spanish guitarist. So just having that in the background, it would be very thematic for me. - Awesome. - No, I'm just taken with flamenco. I didn't, I just didn't even answer that one. - All right. (laughing) - Right. (laughing) - So reading on Board Game Geek Scale of one to 10 now, how would you rate El Grande? Who wants to go first? - I'll give it a legacy seven.

You know, if I played it for the first time now, I don't know if it would be a seven, but you know, mixed in with nostalgia and it just its old school feel. - Yep. - I put it as seven. - Yeah. - All right. I've rated it a six for quite a while and it still stands there. - Right. I also had it down as a seven and for largely the same reason, Steve.

In fact, one of the things we were talking about, when we went back and we played Agricola, we were surprised at how conflict heavy it was and that, you know, you were spending your time in between turns waiting to see if someone was going to take the spot. I mean, there was a lot of anxiety that went along with the game. That's, Agricola's got nothing on El Grande when it comes to that. - Oh, really? - Yeah, because you're sitting there, you're looking at those action cards.

And like you said, and appropriately, that with five players, they're all going to be played. So then it's like, oh, okay. Who's going to get the brunt of this one card? And you're sitting there waiting to see what's going to happen? Or you look at it, you're like, there's so many different ways these cards can be used that are great. I'm going to benefit from maybe two of them and I can influence one. Is it really going to happen? - I didn't realize you felt that way. - Oh, wow.

- Yeah, I just, I don't know. Maybe it's because I think of it as an investment game, but I feel very removed from the causes and effects of the turn to turn in El Grande. Unlike Agricola, which, you know, I feel like I've stabbed in the heart. (both laughing) - I felt that a lot more pointedly in El Grande. And I think part of it is, I get too wrapped up in like, this is my territory, right?

And I think part of being good at this game and it's why I'm terrible at it is, you don't really have the ownership of anything. It's more like, where can I jump on the opportunities? But you are not the ruler of our province. You're not-- - Right, just because one region's called your home region and your grande is there. It doesn't mean you have to score points there. - Yes, it does. - You get two more points if you get that one, right?

But the game we just played that I won, I just abandoned that region because Greg wanted it. - Yeah. - I'm just saying it. Yeah, you gotta be smart, I guess. - It's not end all be all, but yeah, especially the other regions, if your grande is not in there, like who cares, get out. - Right. - Go go somewhere else if your bits aren't doing anything there. - Exactly, all right. So last question, is it replayable and how soon do you want to revisit the game? - It's-- - Flamenco?

- Yeah, in there it's-- (both laughing) - It's a once or twice a year game for me. I would love to play it twice a year. - Yeah, I think I'm right there with you. Maybe even three times a year, but-- - I'd be up, yeah. (both laughing) - My answer is I guess. (both laughing) And I'll revisit it only what others ask me to. - Yeah, all right. With that, you know, we finished our ninth round and the game has come to its conclusion. Look, I don't know who won, I just know I'm in last place.

(both laughing) You are not the next king. - I am definitely not the next king in order to have to worry about the pond. For our next episode, we'll be going completely on the other end of the time spectrum and we'll be going ahead and into the future for this one. So looking forward to that. Hey guys, thanks for being available tonight. This turned out to be a lot of fun. (both laughing) All right, have a good evening. - Hi guys. - Thank you for listening to replayable.

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