The DEBT - "$15 a N*gger"

Who turned America? Alexander and I'm Whitney down. Mhm. There it is. It all comes down to one thing, debt. If we rang up all the debt white Americans ow the black amer Perkins, it would be fifty times longer than the CVS received picture that Whitney. That's mighty long. Did you know that you're hundreds of years ahead of me because you were born a white man in America? But you owe me a debt that is simple? Thank you can't fix well, you know, Erica, I always thank you.

But what is this debt that we're talking about? Is it something that I owe you personally or is this something that all white people of black people you know, you're the big star. I'm just a documentary filmmaker. I never enslaved anybody by relatives, as far as I know, didn't. What is this thing that I actually Oh, how has this debt been accrued? And how do you think I should be repaying it one dollar at a time? You

know we've done this before. It's so funny how white amnesia sits in, like how do I pay for the debts? How do I pay for stuff that I've done wrong or you know, in the past. But you know, listen, this is what the whole podcast is about. It's about the fact that if you can't see it and you don't think you owe it, and there's no invoice, then how is it your debt? And there's the rub, So yeah, you gotta get to it. The other part of this is that you got interests, okay, because this debt keeps

growing whether you think it's there or not. It's like a mountain. So yeah, something's got to happen. This is the big question that I think all white people ask themselves. Whether you're someone who believes that black people are owed something or whether you believe that black people aren't owed something, you're always like asking yourself, how do I fit into this? Do I owe something personally? Is that the government? And

what does it actually mean to owe something? What is the thing that I've gotten by being white that I need to repay? Well, I don't think it's what you've gotten, only it's what you can't see. And it is invisible because it's built inside the structures and institutions and the banking and the real estate and the military and everything that makes America America. But listen, I got the receipts and it dates back to how you and I both got started in life. And this will show the effects

of the at pretty clearly. In fact, to demonstrate the invisible advantages of your so called magnificent whiteness and the unseen disparity of my glorious blackness, some genius created a contest called the Privilege Game. We're gonna play it outdoors because we need plenty of role Actually, I know the perfect place to play this. Okay, good, so, Erica. You know we're gonna do this privileged walk, right. I thought'd

be interesting to do it at General Grant's tune. Wow, obviously he was, you know, you know, the winning general in the Civil War. But it was interesting. As president, he really went against Johnson, who replaced Lincoln, and he was really instrumental on ensuring rights for black people after Civil War. I love the story of Grant. You love the story of Grant. I do, At least what I know about him is that he was a little, small

dude who was necessarily the most obvious choice. But for Lincoln, who kept sending generals in and these types of commanders, they wouldn't fight. It's like they were hesitating fighting against the South. And he says, God, damn it, I need somebody who will fight. And Grants came in, all small and kind of spiny, and he said, I'll fight, sir, and he fought. Yeah. I love you, Grant, But let's get to this game. So the purpose is to demonstrate

the different ways privilege shows up in our lives. So I've asked our friend, the brilliant Joy read of the read out to set us up and get us going. She's going to read a statement or a question, and we're going to step forward or step back if it applies to us. All right, all right, you want to take twenty steps up just being white and a man? Go go for it. We worked this out like a game. It'll be fun at least for a little while. May

be fun for you. I have a feeling I might lose this one by winning you you might lose this winning. Is that a joke? Say? My winning is going to be could potentially be a lost child? Please please delusions. Okay, let's get going, all right, Eric and Whitney, let's play the privilege game. You're ready, yes, ready as I'm ever going to be. Good luck to both of you. Actually, I take that back, Whitney, you don't need luck, You've got white privilege. Good luck to you. Erica. I know

your story. It's amazing, so many wonderful accomplishments. But even with all of that, I already know how this game will end, and it ate with you in the lead, my Nubian sister. Okay, well, Conda forever, let's do this first question, If your ancestors were forced to come to the USA, not by choice, take one step back by let me just step back. If your primary ethnic identity

is American, take one step forward. If you were ever called names because of your race, class, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation, take one step back there, Erica, she's getting a little bit back behind me. Whitney, you keep moving forward. I've been moved forward once. Sucks for me. If there were people who worked for your family as servants, gardeners, nanny's, et cetera, take one step forward. Here I go again. If you were ever ashaved or embarrassed of your clothes,

house car, et cetera, take one step back. We can further part pretty quickly. Whitney, you might want to get out the middle of the center of the sidewalk. There you go. All right, Whitney, so far you're in the lead by a pretty wide margin. So Erica, now it was probably a good time for us to set up some prayers that you'll catch up to him in the next round of the game. But first, speaking of reparations, I know YouTube visited New York's famous Riverside Church, whose

history is connected to reparations. Let's take a listen. Wow, what a church. Yeah, this is a beauty. You know what, I love stained glass. It looks like um candy. It's delicious. It's really really really astounding. Because they can build this, we can get reparations. It's true, this was no small undertaking. So you know this is the church where James Foreman in nine and it was eight fourth. He got up. There was a Sunday service, right, and he got up.

You know, Reverend Ernest T. Campbell was presiding, big crowd, mostly white, white, yeah, mostly white, and he got up and he presented the Black Manifesto. That's right, you know, Whitney. James Foreman was a well known civil rights activist at the time. But when he stormed the pulpit and disrupted that service, he was heckled. I mean, they probably thought he was there to rob him membership of Minside Church

Black Manifesto. We the black people assembled in Detroit, Michigan for the National Black Economic Development Conference, are fully aware that we have been forced to come together because racist white America has exploited our resources, our minds, our bodies, our labor for centuries. We have been forced to live as colonized people inside the United States, victimized by the most vicious racist system in the world. We have helped

to build the most industrial country in the world. The Riverside Church is to use its influence and historic reputation to pressure all white, racist Christian churches and Jewish synagogues to meet the demand of the National Black Economic Development Conference for five hundred million dollars in reparations due to the role of the Christian and Jewish religions and exploiting Black people in this country. We have stated in our Black Manifesto that our demand for five hundred million dollars

cannot be minimized. It can only be increase. While we did not place a time limit on when we wanted to five hundred million dollars in reparations to be paid, let no Christian or Jew think that we are going to string out this matter or that payment of this reparation can be evaded. We are therefore demanding of the white Christian churches in Jewish synagogues, which are part and parcel of the system of capitalism, that they begin to

pay reparations to black people in this country. They're demanding five hundred million dollars. This total comes to fifteen dollars per nigger. Why didn't you read that part? That's not the that Wait a minute, I gotta keep reading this nigger thing. This total comes to fifteen dollars per nigger. This is a low estimate. We maintain there are probably more than thirty million black people in this country. Fifteen dollars a nigger is not a large sum of money.

And we know that the churches and synagogues have a tremendous wealth in his membership White America and still exploits Black people. Time is running out. We have been slaves too long. The church has profited from our labor. The church is racist. We are men and women, proud Black men and women. Our demands shall be met, reparations or no church victory or death. Thank you. Now, there's a reason why he's using the word nigger. This was him

manifesting this to me, channeling his anger. He was like, Okay, you don't want to know what that is. That's fifteen dollars nigger. Now that in a way it sounds like it's cheap. That's some heavy stuff. Oh those Oh I wish I could have seen those white people's faces. Oh they're ambrosis salad. That morning it got willed. Why I never I never using nigger House of God. Yeah, but they baptized us and put us on slave ships. To me, nigger was invented in the House of God by godless people.

So maybe if we flip it and we stormed the capital, we can get fifteen dollars a nigger, and that's what he was asking for. He said, give us some money so we can do for ourselves. And he didn't get it, and we're still asking for But I don't believe that America can last, or be strong or go forward if it does not correct this huge crack in its foundation. I think of the courage to talk, to come into this place and stand up in sort of the seat of religious power. This was I don't think it took

as much courage as you think. People were furious. I think that he was furious, so to me, I think he channeled his anger into something that he thought was at least productive and said, I'm gonna put a number to this. We're gonna get some money for us. They owe us, And he was trying to compel them out of a sense of morality, to beat them with the

stick of justice. He was right. He started national conversation on on reparations around religion that had never been started before, and there was a huge, huge, This was front page news and it really I mean, he did something. It was like a thunderclap, letting people know that this discussion about the church and exploitation of Black Americans was joined money. That's the number one reason America it doesn't have a reparations program for the living ancestors of enslaved African Americans

because it'll cost her money. Moo lah. That's where the rubber meets the road. America is in debt to Black people, monetarily and spiritually. You take it from early activists like Queen Mother Moore and your favorite Whitney Cally House, who are pioneers in the reparations movement. You know, I love Kelly,

but really loved James Foreman. I mean, I think that what he did and what I think is like so fascinating about the manifesto is that it wasn't just so specific and like clear, but also the way that Revere Kimbell responded to it. I think that what he said something and I'm paraphrasing him here I can't really remember, it is something about he said you might not like what he said, you might not like the way he said it, but the questions he's posed are properly before

the house. And so it really comes down to money. As you say, it's like what is owed, but also who's going to pay it? That's true but we can't oversimplify this because there are other necessary factors involved, like an apology for slavery, psychological damage, healing, reconciliation, untangling, lots of heinous legislation that's cooked into the books. Yeah, but a big money payment is still be peanuts. I mean, in theory, it should be equal to the amount of

money enslaved Africans have earned in labor unpaid funding. We blacks invested in you, White America. The debt has come due with me and the bill is staggering. How much you got in your pockets player, You know, Erica may not not very much. And I think that's kind of how a lot of what Americans feel like they don't have necessarily have a lot of money, and what they do they worked really hard for, and they don't see the advantages that, you know, they might not have money

in their pocket, but they have something else. They have opportunities and advantages that really can't be calculated. And I think that's kind of the question we're exploring here. You know, what is the number that can make up not only for what was taken with black Americans, but all so for what was not given right. So James Foreman, this disruptor. He visited Reverend Campbell the night before his Sunday stunt to ask him for permission to address the service. I mean,

he's trying to do it the right way. But Campbell declined. So Foreman did his thing, and you and you heard the congregation booing. Why I was there to see it, but you know he was undaunted. Campbell came back strong though. After a regroup that same Sunday, he spoke about Foreman's manifesto. He spoke about the evils of the white man and the black man's mistreatment from the white men. But he

also says that whites have inherited this system. Now, this is where it starts to get a little dodgy, and he posits that there's a statue of limitations. You gotta get that lone limitation on the pain and suffering of black people, But there is a limit on the time that white people have to rectify, recognize, and repair the destruction of black citizens, their most valuable asset creators. You know,

he acknowledges the validity of the question. I'm not sure he's ready for the answer that a full accounting is going to provide. I mean, That's really the question, right, Erica, what is the number? How do you quantify what is owed? Well, if we're talking about the debt that we got to talk to uber economist Dr William Derty and he's got numbers. I mean Whitney, you know, he wasn't always for reparations.

He was a skeptic. I see reparations as something that is supposed to be rejuvenative of a community that has been long, long decimated by American racism. But I don't necessarily see that as being a process that would inflict any type of unique harm on the non black population of the United Say, that's a huge relief for me to hear. I guess. I don't see reparations as a matter of individual or personal guilt. I see it as

a matter of national responsibility and obligation. And I can't say what the consequences would be for the country as a whole if it never happens. It hasn't happened in a hundred fifty six years. But I certainly can have the expectation that black lives will continue to be stunted and denied full opportunity if a step like this is not taken. Take US through a little bit like what you believe the debt is and how you're calculating it.

The Black American population that is descended from persons enslaved in the US is about thirteen percent of the nation's population, but possesses about two and a half percent of the nation's wealth. This corresponds to a situation in which the average black household has a net worth that is now almost eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars less than the

average white household. We view that racial wealth differential as capturing the cumulative intergenerational effects of racism in American society. We set as the target for a reparations plan elimination of that gap and bringing the black share of wealth into consistency with the black share of the nation's population. And that would require at least ten to twelve trillion dollars and resources to be transferred to Black Americans. And

how are you calculating that number? So we estimate, based upon the Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finances, that the total required per household would be about eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars. There are approximately fifteen million households that can syst of persons who are descendants of the folks who were enslaved in the United States, and so simply by multiplying the fifteen million by approximately eight fifty thousand,

you come up with that number. Hi, it's Joy read again, and we're back with the next round of the privileged game. They're so pretty far apart, but let's get into the next round of questions to see if Erica can catch up to Whitney. Eric and Whitney, can both of you still hear me? I can hear you better than I can hear Erica. I knew you guys would be far apartful. Wow, you can't even talk to each other now. Yeah, whatever, here's the next question. If one or both of your

parents were white collar professionals, doctors, lawyers, etcetera. Take one step forward. Here I go, Whitney reving. If you were raised in an area where there was prostitution, drug activity, etcetera, take one step back. I'm good. We're both standing in place. If you ever tried to change your appearance, mannerisms, or behavior to avoid being judged or ridiculed, take one step back. But we probably all did, right. No, No, you're still standing damn if you study the culture of your ancestors

in elementary school, take one step forward. That's definitely me. It looks like a dot here. If you went to school speaking a language other than English, take one step back. Look at them. Every step he just keeps moving and moving. Oh man, wow, we think you're a mile away. This is an absolute blood letting Erica, girl, I can see how this is gonna end. But I'm looking at the time and I gotta go. I need to get ready for my TV show, The read Out. Catch you two later.

We'll see you. Joy, thanks, Joy to the world. White privilege not just white privilege. This is about privilege. It's not just d n A. It's also the luck. You know. I feel lucky, even though I'm way back here. Shoot, don't tell me I'm not lucky. Okay, So, Erica, I can see you. Can you hear me? Erica? Are we far away from each other? Yeah? You're We started off in the middle of the block. You're almost at the end. I'm still in the middle, but further from the middle.

I hope you appreciate this privilege. He appreciates it, you know what, though, I'm sorry to realize, man, I did pretty good not knowing that I didn't have all these advantages. If you've ever been cast on a major network sitcom and been the star of stage and screen, take five hundred steps forward. Wait, Eric is coming, she's coming fast. She's blowing by me and she uh, she's out of sight something what five sixty Wow, that's what network TV

does for you. I blew right past you, Whitney, So long, Whitey. What did we learn here that being white and mail is a good thing and being a star of stage screen is a great thing. Yeah, but it didn't make up for all that other stuff. Okay, I'm coming up now. We're talking about you being an actor and famous, but that's everything else on this question is just everyday things, and that's what separates it. Not everybody gets to be cast and TV shows and movies. So it was like

winning the lottery that changed my life. And that's absurd that you have to win the lottery in order to get some sort of balancing factor. And it's what you know I said to you earlier at one point, is that I don't want to give up what I have. I want everybody to have what I have. But what I don't believe that you can have everything you have without black people having to give up everything. So you must give up something. So that's what we're sort of exploring.

I think a lot of times people say, oh, it's it's not a zero sum game. I do agree that it is a zero sum game, that that there is gonna you have to give up to get something. So but that was that was interesting, That was fun. That was fun for you because you kept moving forward. What are you talking about, Oh, that was fun. Oh you know what it's like when you go to amusement park and you're wondering because you've been standing in line all day and there's a family and they just move forward

and you go, man, they must got the hookup. That's what it's like for black people looking at white people, that you're always thinking they've got the hook up. It's it's not even a joke with us. We know we look at white people and they automatically they got the hook up privileges, the hook up privileges, the hook up see you later unless these grant thanks a lot. Yeah. So, Whitney, the privileged game did like we knew it would. But a powerful way to change the results of the game

is through reparations. Now. I know it's no magic bullet, I got it, but it beats the slow death if a thousand cuts African Americans are experiencing. Now, we need to talk to some folks who can help us do the math and calculate what's old so we can get going on this. I mean, please, I don't want to keep playing that game again and just keep losing. My name is Bob Johnson. I'm the founder of Black Entertainment Television and the r l J Companies. Bobby j Okay

right now. He has been on record for demanding the U. S Government paid fourteen trillion dollars to the descendants of slaves, and he makes a hell of a case it. He also believes that Black Americans are giving away their wealth because they're left out of the many incentives of home ownership, the biggest transfer. Well, if you think about this home ownership.

When you own a home, two things happen. One, the government gives you a tax deduction for the interests you pay on the homeowner mortgage, So one, the government is subsidizing your home. The second thing is home ownership has been the backbone of well creation in this society, and so the home appreciates, and when you sell it, you

have more money than when you're invested in it. So white Americans on about seventy the ratio of homeownership and white Americans about se Black Americans about So white Americans own more homes then Black Americans and therefore get the benefit of the tax deduction and the appreciation. Now Black Americans are subsidizing that because if they don't have the

down payment for the home, they have to rent. When you rent, as anybody who knows who rents an apartment or rent any kind of property, no you don't get a tax deduction for rent an apartment in the urban markets or any place. So you are in effect playing the same tax. So if you make forty dollars, your taxes on your forty dollars of income, but you don't get that tax deduction which reduces your tax. The white American who has access to capital can get that tax deduction.

That's a wealth transfer. So many black families who rent are subsidizing white ownership because they are not getting the tax deduction. They're paying full tax, while the Latin American can deduct the tax on their home ownership. Because that's the federal government rule. And so that's a wealth transfer. Labor is a wealth transfer. Access to paying taxes greater than the other person is a wealth transfer. And so

where does that money come from? To transfer that money back, you're saying just to take it out of the budget. Should there be a reparation's tax? What is the way you create that revenue? Same way the government always creates wevenue. You get the revenue from the the individual taxpayers in this country. Keep in mind, there's no such thing as

government money. Now, government can print money and create more money, but fundamentally, the way the government pays for itself for military expenses, health care expenses, social services is by taxing people. So it's utterly the money belongs to the people. So reparations is a way of saying to the people of

this country three million plus people, forty million black. It's saying, look, we need to repair our nation by giving everybody an equal opportunity and paying damages for people who were treated horribly for more than two hundred plus years. Economist Dr Julian malvo I love her me the case for reparations in two thousand nineteen, which he testified at the HR forty hearing, which calls for the establishment of a commission to study reparations for Black Americans. People are very uncomfortable

talking about what they owe us. It's very uncomfortable to talk about the fact that the foundations of our nation's economy rests on the backs of black people. We would not have a wall street, a bond market absent black labor, absent extracting the value of the work of enslaved black people. But when you begin to talk about it from an economic perspective, people get really very uncomfortable because then you also have to talk about the nature of capitalism. You

have to talk about something called predatory capitalism. Predatory capitalism gives you the ability to think of five people, basically dehumanize people. Dr King called a thing of five. You know, when we talk about reparations, We've got a piece of legislation, a powerful piece of legislations HR forty, which would essentially set up a commission to look at what form reparation might take. I believe that there's a combination remedy that includes the repair of our communities. We had a hundred

plus black owned banks in the early twentieth century. Now we have twenty three, Well, what did we lose? And we lost lots because essentially was a time period where black people were making advances even though we didn't get the forty acres in the mule, and then whitefolds bucked up and said, wait a minute, these people moving too far, too fast. We need to stop this stuff. And that's where you got the lynchings, the gym crow laws. Give

us a tab. What's the bill. We can calculate the value of enslaved work from sixteen nineteen, eighteen sixty five, but we can also calculate the value of extorted work from eighteen sixty five to nineteen sixty five. We can also talk about the value what has happened with economic discrimination and the value of that from nineteen sixty five until a present. We could look at the Emergency Land Fund, which is an organization that looked at the loss of black land and how we had land and they took

it away from us. We could talk about the black people who were banished with the sundown towns. One day you wake up, they say, y'all got to get out of town right now. So there's so many pieces that you can calculate, and this this is the reckoning that our country has to have. You have a wealth gap where you have one black dollar for it right now for every thirteen white dollars today. In nineteen ten, it was one black dollar for every sixteen. So think about that.

And of course, of more than a hundred years we've had that little progress. Now the number does go up and down, but one sixteen, one thirteen, and it really does speak to why reparations are important, and who gets these reparations and how are they divvied up. I feel more strongly about community repair than the individual repair, but many feel there should be some check cuts, some kind of way. Okay, I'm not going to strongly object to that.

If we leave that it's not just enslavement, but also the post enslavement period, the g I Bill, the Homestead Act, all that exclusion. If you believe that, then whether you got here in sixteen nineteen or in or even in nineteen sixty nine, you've experienced some form of damage because of this oppressive system. How do we slice the pie. Let's get a pie first, and then let's talk about it right on Julianne. And if there's gonna be pie, I'll take a huge piece of Pecan oh in Whitney

on Capitol Hill. Wait, I use my upper crust voice. We had movement on HR forty when football legend Herschel Walker lent his um expertise in soaring rhetoric to the reparations testimony going on in Congress. Let's listen in we use black power to create white guilt. My approach is biblical. How can I ask my heaven as farm to forgive me if I can't forgive my brother. I never want to put anyone religion down, but my religion teach togetherness, reparation,

teach separation. Men have died trying to get into America. No one is dying trying to get out reparation. Wherever the money comes from, Who is black? What percentage of black must you be to receive reparation? If reparation is a fee or a correction for a terrible sin of slave owners, government and others. But we punished the non guilty party. Is it not creating division or separation with different races? Reparation I feel it continues to let us

know we're still African American rather than just America. No, not exactly a touchdown, but in all fairness, just because Herschel's on the field doesn't mean he's on your team. So I don't think one should throw him the reparations football and not expect a fumble. Child. Please good luck giljecone. Next time on Reparations the Big Payback, we meet the trailblazers of the reparations movement. Calli House was a black woman who had been a slave, and the federal government

got concerned. They decided because letters were coming from white people saying, the Negroes are meeting in churches and they come out saying and talking about someday we're gonna get something. So you need to do something about that woman who's going around there stirn them up. And so they decided

to go after her. And they said that she was using the mails to defraud because she was telling black people that she was going to negroes that she was gonna try to get the federal government give them some money. And she should know the federal government is never gonna give negroes any money. That's the way they put it. So it was fraud to be organizing people. And so you can trace the present day reparations movement all the way back to Calis House and her ex lay Pension Movement.

This podcast is produced by Eric Alexander, Ben ar Noon and Whitney DApp. The executive producers are Charlemagne the God and Dolly S. Bishop. The Supervising producer is Nicole Childers and the lead producers Devin Maverick Robbins, The producer writer Serice Castle, and the associate producers Kevin Famm. With additional research support provided by Nile Blast. Original music by d

J D t P Reparations. The Big Payback is a production of color Farm Media, I Heart Radio and The Black Effect Podcast Network in association with best Case Studios. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.