Reparations: Fight Club! The Case For vs. The Case Against! - Part Two

kind of just recycles their names over and over. Are you profiling me? No? No, No, it's just your name. I just think it's interesting. Yeah, interesting. I just think it's interesting. You know, that's like the ultimate you know, you're in trouble with a black woman when she says that thing. Yeah, okay, well how would you know? Not only have I been around Erica, I've been around you a lot. Okay, okay, Well, you know it just struck me that we're talking and about reparations and slavery and all.

And you're from Massachusetts, right, and went to an Ivy League school, so yes, and well, in seventeen, another Massachusetts Ivy leaguer Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin. Now that greatly strengthened the economic foundations of slavery in this country. And it was a paradox because the cotton gin, a labor saving device, helped make cotton profitable, vastly increasing the spread of slavery labor from Georgia all the way down to Texas, and preserving and prolonging slavery in the United

States for another seventy years. Wait a minute, Erica, you know you can't put that on me. I'm not responsible for the cotton gin. Yeah no, no, yeah, yeah, that's what they all say. I just think it's interesting. Yeah, interesting. You know, I know you don't approve and by interesting, yes, yeah, well you know, Erica Herman Melville, another New Englander, said I did not name myself wrong me not because I

have a wicked name. Well that's a good one, you know, and I'd use it myself if my name was messed up like that. Yeah. Well, I don't think my name's messed up. But go on, thanks a lot. Look I share because I care saved by the bill. To night part two of our main event, the Heavyweight Bout. We've all been waiting for the epic battle between the Case four Reparations and the Case against Reparations. If you're just joining us, I'm your host, Eric Alexander. I've been here

in historic Madison Square Garden since last week. Oh my dires, whoa to bring you all the thrilling round by round action in this colossal matchup? Joining me at ringside as color man Whitney, Dow Whitney. This has been a hell of a fight so far. Are it looks like the Case four Reparations is down for the count? It certainly does, Erica.

But how we didn't see it because it was a spruce shot from a Congressman Mike Johnson blindsided his opponent, congress Woman's Jela Jackson Lee, when he revealed he had a black son. What are you talking about, willis? Yes, a black son. We took custody of Michael and made him part of our family twenty two years ago when we were just newlyweds and Michael was just fourteen and out on the streets and nowhere to go on a very dangerous path. Michael's grown now, he has his own

young family. He turns thirty six years old next week. And he's a loving dad to four precious children of his own. God has been good to us, and he's a success story. I mentioned that today for one reason. I personally know the challenge that he has faced early in his life. I have walked with him through discrimination that he had he's had to endure over the years, and the hurdles he's sometimes faced. I know all this,

but God was I was with him. I asked Michael this weekend what he thinks about the idea of reparations and dig this wait for it, he says, his black sun is against reparations. Riddle me that. Well, no wonder, Sheila jackonally never saw that coming. That's certainly a new twist on the old I've got a black friend. The thing is a black son beats a black friend every time. Well, with tactics like that, the case four contenders must step

up their gain. They'll need a hero, They'll need a fo Wait, hang on, though, hang on, who's this coming to the center of the ring. It's former New Orleans mayor Mark morel is the head of the Urban League and a champion in the High four. Reparations. Stop the count, Stop that count. Mark Mario has something to say. We have to keep a pressure all. Look, we have to define reparations. Some people want to define reparations as a

give me a check bill. That's not reparations. Reparations could include that, And after all, let's be clear and honest. The United States has paid reparations before to Japanese who were interred in the camps, and there are other examples. So this is not a new radical revolutionary concept, the

notion of reparations. It is a concept that this nation has resistant when it comes to those whose ancestors were enslaved for two hundred and fifty years, and in the case of many of us who grew up in the South, our ancestors lived under a system of American aparthei called segregation for another one hundred years. I can trace my family on my mother's side all the way back to the Whitney Plantation, which is now the Whitney Slave Museum

in Saint John, the Baptist Parish, Louisiana. That particular plantation had some three hundred plus slaves. But the point of the matter is is that I think that there's energy in the house. We're gonna have to build the energy in the United States Senate. I think it's time to do this. There's an abundance of evidence which shows if you address economic disparities that the benefit for the nation would be that it would expand GDP by some three

to five trillion. Well, that's on a base let's say six seventeen to nineteen trillion, which is a total size of the American economy. People said, well, how is that the case? Because you have people of color who have been held down and structural racism has eliminated their ability to work to their potential and to work to their complete ability to contribute to themselves, their families, and to society.

And when you unleash that power, the benefits are going to be to them and their families, but also to society much more broaded. So I think that's why discussion around reparations and a discussion around racial justice has to also help people understand not just the history of what has happened in this nation since sixty nineteen, but also what is the vision for a nation that addresses the issues of racial justice, that repairs the breach of the

last three hundred years. I mean, we have to articulate that vision, which I think is a positive vision well at the same time helping people understand the predicate. I think it requires significant public and private investment in infrastructure, in education, because black communities have been under invested in public and private investment has bypassed black communities in many cities. And it would involve investment in infrastructure, which includes investment

in people because years and years of under investment. You know, when I was growing up in the worlds, you would see neighborhoods where the street was paid for six blocks and when all of a sudden it stopped, and then for the next five blocks the street was kind of like a little dirt road. And when you looked up and you said, why is it this way? Because this is where the white residents lived, and this is where the black neighborhood started. It's basically the same neighborhood divided

this section black. This section, like this section had a playground. The school they went to look better, had more facilities in the school that the black kids went to. And so you know, it is about investing in those things that help us build long term sustainability, and I think that that is important. We talk about reparations that people said, well, let's give everybody a check. Suppose you gave everybody a check, does that in and of itself change the structures that

produced the results we have today. So the reason why I say that is not to say that compensation payment shouldn't be part of reparations, but that, to me, it doesn't go far enough. WHOA, that's the fight day. One minute you're on the ropes, next you're back in the fight. Maybe so Erica. But this next concerned citizen from Evanston, Illinois is in it to win it, fighting for the case against reparations. He's both a slugger and a ring tactician,

and he comes with a fistful effects. Meet John Folly. When it came out that reparations were going to target a specific group of people, it just struck with as wrong. If somebody needs help, that helps shouldn't be dictated by someone's race, creed, color, color of their hair. If you need help, you should be color blind. I mean, it's just as simple as that. Whether you're a hillbilly in West Virginia or whether you're here, if you need support,

we're going to give you support as a society. And again, that support is not dictated by your skin color, race, creed, color, agenda, or whatever the case may be. This country has been through a lot of pain, you know, the civil rights movement. We've come a long way, and so to reopen these wounds just divides our community instead of uniting our community. And sometimes what we forget, which is what our media, sorry, and politicians, they spent a lot of time dividing us

instead of uniting us. Because one thing, we all are in this room right now, we're all Americans. But if we look at slavery, Okay, slavery ended eighteen sixty five, the Civil rights movement came in a hundred years later. Essentially out of the Civil rights movement, there was housing reform. There were all sorts of laws that were passed to protect people against the ability to buy a home. So basically large part of these problems were solved over forty

years ago, fifty years ago. So why are we coming back to this. So if you think about reparations, reparations, conceptually, it's for those that were victimized by slavery. So if there was going to be a time to make the reparations for the harm of slavery, I would argue that that should have been done, you know, in the late nineteenth century, now in the twenty one century. The reason

why I'm speaking up is clearly this is wrong. Some poor family, wherever they may be, they need help, but we're not going to give them help because their skin color. It just struck me so morally wrong. And there's so

many things that are done in the clandestine way. So you're gonna have this Latino family who needs help, and they're gonna say that this black family got more help, and then they're gonna turn around, and then they're going to find a lawyer, and then the whole thing is going to turn into a complete cluster where it could have been avoided. And that's the tragedy. I think everybody's life has a certain degree of burden. I think if you had Bill Gates here, he would have some burden.

God only knows what it would be. But he's got a burden. Everyone has a burden. It's how you handle the burden. So there is the someone told me that they're not gonna hire me because I'm not Jewish. Do I sit there and say I'm gonna just roll over and die, or do I sit there say fine, I'll just find something else, you know, different times and stuff like that. There's all sorts of nice jokes about having red hair and freckles and stuff like that. You know,

you develop a thick skinning and move on. And so I truly don't feel that there was, at least I gues me for myself, you know, privilege, absolutely enough. My life wouldn't have been any different if I was black, because it's the core of who you are, you know, underneath it orders, it's what forms you and stuff like that. So whether I'm a Hispanic Black Asian, underneath all, it's the character of who I am is who I am, you know, quirks and all. And by the way, we

all have our quirks. We've seen what I called the ugly, dark and awful side of American society. We showed up at the Capitol, the intolerance, hatred, the fealty to white supremacy as an operating principle for the country, versus this idea that this nation is multi cultural, multi religious, multi orientation, and that is undergraded by notions of justice and equity. Because you're a white male, we're not going to give

your family help. We're going to ignore the Hispanic family were ignore the Asian family, but we're gonna get help to this black family. But all four of them need help, you know. I went to school in the South, the elementary school, I went to, the middle school I went to in the high school I went to. I was one of the first African American students to go to

all three of those schools. And I remember being indoctrinated with the lost Cause narrative, the idea that the South waged the Civil War for the principle of states rights and that it was a war against the Northern aggression, not that it was a war to defense slavery. So in many respects, the narratives that many have learned have contributed to, if you will, the racial injustice we see in public policy even to this very day. And that's

part of this conversation. So I don't believe in white privilege, Asian privilege, Hispanning privilege, but there is parental privilege. A child that is raised by a mom and a dad is just gonna have a statistically better outcome. While at the same time, I'm always a believer in the vision for the future. What's the vision for the future. What can the nation become if these challenges are a dressed. We have to remain vocal. We have to remain energized.

We have to make sure that our demands and our needs remain at the forefront. We all have to remain woke and in a continuous visible demand for the things we want. This fight has more twist and turns than a safety pin. Who's ahead and the count are these punches landing? Who will emerge victorious? To find out? We asked the man in the street, any form of reparation, in my opinion, definitely z owed to the black community

and people of color in general. It's gonna take a while for people to maybe come around and figure out what's the right in appropriate way to approach it. Whether it's literally money, whether it's education, whether it's actual housing, food, you name it. We need to figure out a way to allocate those resources to the people who need it the most. For it's because they brought a white people

here as slaves. They have to build of America. Without them, America would himself being the way it is to be. Any time I see the famous about those slaves they brought here, it's break my hat. They think blacks are loos human beings I think black Americans to African Americans, they in lots in America. Personally, I am in favor of preparations and the form of investment into communities of people who are you descended to been directly impacted by

things like jim pro or slavery before. I think that it would be more impactful in the long term to invest in the commun enertees, into the education, in the infrastructure, and those communities. Of course, I'm for it. Why shouldn't we pay back after we hurt somebody, doesn't matter how

many years ago it is. I support reparations because as a society, whether it's federal or state or local government or other critical institutions educational, healthcare, and more, we have created a situation where there are massive, massive racial and equities and health and safety and wealth and education and more. Therefore, we have responsibility to repair that damage. That's what reparations is all about. I've got a feeling in these final rounds of this fight are going to be the toughest,

no kidding. Our next spider in the case for reparations is none other than a battler, a rumbler, and a true heavyweight. He's a rapper, a tireless activist, and a proud driver of a nineteen nine Chevy and Paula all the way from Atlanta, g A. It's killer my I think that the federal government absolutely owes us something or

why because in sixteen nineteen you brought us here. So I believe based on that that there is a formula in which the federal government does owe us something, and that includes money private companies that benefited off stocks and buns. Because after the Civil War, even though the people who were promised something by Fielding or the fifteen by General Sherman, even though they didn't get ship, many landowners were under ridden for the property they lost. And the property was

human beings who look like me. And because so when you look at reparations, I think everything that has touched us in a way that profited from us and we did not owes us. So that's the mixture of federal government. And that would be cash payment in my opinion, that would be land grants and land lottery. That would be an exemption from taxation. That would be a forgiveness of loans and debts that are federally subsidized. That would be given us every opportunity to gain equal footing, to take

advantage of the opportunity of being Americans. It's the same thing that was done for the colonies after they broke from Britain. It's the same thing that was done for the immigrant population that was asked to come here and settle the Midwest and West. So my question becomes why everybody except us and everybody should pay who profited from it. According to the Angelo Project that studies America's original center slavery from six nine forward, right we are old, over

fifteen trillion dollars would probably come out. According to Bob Johnson, and even my you know, my former drug dealer mathematics would come out between three and thou thousand dollars. Let me tell black folks on sidey South, Dad, ain't no money. I want people to understand that besides the cash payment which you you should get in your deserve not only

a reparations to cash payout. They need to be long term and systemic, purposeful systems and organizations set up that puts for the first time black people who were brought here His beast and shadow on a pathway to having their full rights in prible to just recognized and enjoy now people outside the Afriman community that say things like I wasn't a slave onner, you benefit from what your

grandparents got. I have benefited because my grandfather got the g I bill when black soldiers who were turned from World War two could not get the g I p I've benefited because at the time there were factors in Mississippi they paid white workers. Even though they were underpaying the white workers, they paid them more than the black So what I need poor and working class white people understand that if they have to treat us fairy. So when Mitchell, I don't say that was a hundred fifty

years ago, mit you seventy five. That was two minches ago. So you could die, come back live again. And that's how cooch slavery is. Mitch. You know, double me your ass. So my great grandparents share crop about acres. Acres benefited, my grandmother benefited me. But because of that, my grandmother was able to have any education. Because of that, she was able moved to Atlanta by her first piece of land,

which we see her own. Why don't you want to give black folks that chance, give us our fucking land which we were promised by Sherman's or the Field fifteen when he left black people to die drowned in the creek. We were promised that give us what the funk we were promised, and watch how much better this entire country happen. So I just challenged people to understand that this is not about taking from you because you ain't the government,

you don't have enough money to pay us. This is not about taking from you because you're not the private corporations that profited from us being a stock in a bun. What this is is a reckoning of the evil and the original sin America did because they enslaved people who look like our black ass right, and now it's just time to get that core straight. And I guarantee you, the better the economy is in the African American community, the better the overall economy. So fight forward. Won't reparations.

We deserve it. One day they're gonna come. We just might be older, dead, but I think we can, we must, we will. I have a lot of confidence in black people. I have a lot of confidence in this country because we built it for the same reason your granddad who worked at the Ford Company. Like Forward Trucks because he knows his hands when in the building the Ford truck, You're not gonna shave me for like in America, because I helped build it and I'm not going nowhel And

I think black people need to take the mentality. If we do, you know, we'll see more brown towns pop up. And if we fifty cent of the South, there's no reason we shouldn't own fifty five percent of the South. So black people with the cornerstone, with the foundation, let's see ourselves that way, let's move act and operate that way. And I think we'll see systemic change within our life family. Wow, that was powerful Erica. It sure was Whitney. They don't

call him killer for nothing. He's up against a man who calls himself a race realist and a separatist. He's a South far from the great state of Virginia. In for the case against reparations, give it up for Jared Taylor. Well, I certainly do not propose that reparations be paid for slavery. There's no person alive who was a slave, and there's

no person alive who was a slaveholder. If you were going to make some kind of naturally tailored solution where by those who worst slaves would be compensated by people who had held him the slaves. Presumably you would track down the descendants of slaveholders today and also the descendants of those slaves and work out something between those parties.

But there is no legal theory whatsoever to seek compensation for an act that took place between private parties many years ago, in some cases hundred two hundred three years ago. And as you know the President that many people calling for reparations point to, which is to say, the payments by the federal government to the Asians who in the camps during the Second World War that was made while those people were still alive. The payments did not extend

to the children of those people. So you could argue by that standard that the statute of limitations is finished in the United States. In fact, you could argue that American blacks are the richest, most long lived blacks, not only in the world but in the history of the more, you could also make the argument that Zor O'Neil hursted me the black foot. She said, slavery is the price

I paid for civilization. In other words, she was in effect grateful for the fact that her ancestors brought to the United States, and she grew up in the United States rather than in Africa compared to Africa. For example, life expectancy of American blacks, although it's shorter than that of American plates, is ten years higher than the average

life expectancy in Africa. And so if you want to look at it on strictly a cost benefit basis, the descendants of slaves living in the United States today are, on a material basis, is vastly better off than if their ancestors had stayed in Africa. And the idea that blacks are somehow, hundreds of years later mentally shackled by the fact that they came as enslaved people makes no

sense at all. The blacks living here today were born here, their ancestors were born here, and somehow there's some sort of hereditary mental paralysis that comes in the fact that her ancestors were enslaved. That makes no sense at all. It is completely unfair for them to expect the United States government to make payments to them, and that's the form that almost all proposals for compensation or reparations take. The federal government never owned a single slave slavery was

a private practice. If private individuals the United States think that black people will own some sort of compensation, then by all means reach into their own pockets and make those payments. But somehow to punish all tax payers or something for which they had absolutely no responsibility to me

is completely wrong. I think that if you turned around and you said, Okay, white people, your taxes are going to go up because we're going to tax you more because we're going to give money to blacks, do you think that would improve lace relations from the United States. On the one hand, you will never get an answer from black people saying yes, okay, finally we've been made whole. The black reaction will invariably be the isn't unlough? And what do you think the white reaction is going to be?

Poor whites in particular, and you're actually gonna be paid to the children of Block and Michelle Obama because they're descended from slaves. How do you think white people or other people, Hispanics, Asians, anybody else who feel absolutely no personal involved in slavery, no sense of responsibility for it, is that going to help raise relations in the United States? Absolutely not. It will only make them worse. You can

go back to believe It's nineteen sixty five. Lyndon Johnson gave the commencement address at Howard University and he says, look, what we need is equality of results. We can't just have the quality of opportunity. And since then there have been compensatory programs in the form of racial conferences for blacks. Is it somehow the legacy of slavery that keeps blacks proof? No, I don't think you can make that argument. Georgia the state out living. In the first seven years George existed,

slavery didn't exist. But after origins, South South Carolinians and other Southern colonies like making money. They were like ship we get in this slavery game, get us some Niggers. Much of this was economic, so everybody wasn't racist, but economically it made sense to be. There is probably some impact. I think it would be difficult to argue that the

effect has been zero. However, if you argue that the problem is some sort of structural light supremacy in the United States, it's difficult to argue why some of these other non white groups are doing so much better than lives. If the United States are somehow structurally set up to advantage plates over people who are non white. It's certainly not working very well. At some point, the descendant of someone that was brought here in sixteen nineteen deserves to

steer this raggedy as chill through these trouble waters. That is an element of reparation that is long deserved. If you have to go back and find people who got the short end of the stick, you're welcome to do so. There's an infinite number of things, but this kind of thing is not going to sit well on people who have absolutely no part in that, and feel no obligation to make those people hold. Is it right that we got so many handicapps playing in US? Know it won right?

Tiger wool has had to play as some substandard golfing places it one right. The two girls from Confident, we got dumb ass questions when they will learn to play tenants? But boy, once they called on, look at how we forbat. What are the penalties for being black the United States?

It's impossible to calculate them. And yes, there are some cases in which a black person a black sounding resume does not get called back as often, But there are many, many cases that we know about in which a black person who is applying for job or which who was certainly applying to university gets preference over a white or

particularly over an Asian. So black people, especially black people with distendants of thold that are brought four would explained, we need to see ourselves as the start of what's next, and need the end of what has happened. Boom, did you see that Killer Mike wore him out? This was a heavyweight in action. He was clear and concise, He brought the energy from the ancestors, and he was throwing hammers. Baby,

he sure was, Erica. He was throwing hammers. And Jared Taylor's race realism was just a covert way of saying this country is for whites only. It certainly couldn't stand up to Killer Mike's attack, and Killer Mike showed him it's way too late for all that. Now. I don't know about you, Whitney, but that was a clear knockout for the case four reparations. Boom, I agree that was amazing Killer Mike threw down. But but wait a minute, Erica, we have a ruling from the judges. The judges are

declaring it a tie, a tie. It seems like the fixes in what are you talking about? You heard it, Whitney, you heard you even said so Killer Mike was the clear winner, Yes, but they're calling it a tie. The case against reparations is the reigning champion and the contender doesn't take a belt and a tied score. You need to win by decision or buy a knockout or knockout. Why not? Are you kidding? I guess we're just not

there yet. Next time on reparations, the big payback. When I was running for president, I did talk about reparations because if you look at American politics and there's something that you don't understand, it does not seem to make sense. The answers race. It's not being spoken about, but it's the colonel behind the apparent inconsistency, the apparent craziness. And so I look at the need for everyone in America,

particularly white people. I mean, let's face it, this was a system of racism and discrimination that is conceived of and executed by white people that is continued for centuries, and for us to move on, it's absolutely essential so that we could have honest conversations about how to proceed in a just fashion. It's important to retell the story for everyone, specifically for white people who have benefited from this system and executed it. And it's not enough just

to retell the story. Actions have to be taken. Let's talk about what it will take to repair the damage, to address the injustice. This podcast is produced by Eric Alexander, Bennar Noon and Whitney Dow. The executive producers are Charlemagne the God and Dolly s. Bishop. The Supervising Producer is Nicole Childers and the lead producer is Devin Madock Robins. The producer writer is Serice Castle and the Associate producer is Kevin Fan with additional research support provided by Nile Blast.

This episode was written by Tony Purrier. Original music by d J D t P Reparations. The Big Payback is a production of color Farm Media, I Heart Radio and The Black Effect Podcast Network in association with best Case Studios. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.