Joanne, hello everyone. You are listening to the regenerative by design podcast where we will be getting to the root of health, climate, economics and food. I am your host. Joni quinwell Moore. Join me on this journey as we explore the stories of individuals and organizations who are working to realign our food system with both human health and the health of our planet. Hello everybody, and welcome to another session of regenerative
by design. I'm thrilled with my guests today, who are calling in all the way from Europe, and going to tell you about their incredible story as innovators around climate smart the climate smart crop sorghum. So welcome anahiya And Sharif and I would love to just kick off this session and have you tell us a little bit about you and your background. This is you. I know you both have fantastic stories, so go ahead and let's start there. Thanks a lot. Yoni, we're super happy to be here. My name is
Anna. I am Dutch. I'm a real city girl, but at some point in my life, I moved to France for love. Was surrounded by agricultural fields. Had two kids, and I thought, what are we doing with the world? Before that, I'd been in advertising for a long time, video production, and then suddenly it clicked. And I thought, Okay, we have to, we have to change the
way we feed our kids and future generations. Found out about a venture building course in my home country in Rotterdam, moved back and learned all you can learn in three months about regenerative agriculture, which at the time we thought was a lot, but now we found that there's so much more to learn. And that's where I met Sharif. Fantastic. So I'm Sharif. I'm from Lebanon, and actually I moved to the Netherlands in 2002 and at that time, I used to be in a
different field. My background is Business Administration. Recently, my company, before this one, was a barbecue company, the una grill, which is a product we developed and launched worldwide. And you might say, what does this have to do with the current field I'm in now? Actually, the barbecue has a leather handle, and our plant based clients used to say, could we actually change leather handle to a plant based product? So it was, for me, the first venture to see what are the
possibilities. And I discovered the whole new world of sustainable products from agriculture. And that's the step that brought me into regenerative agriculture. So cool, because I feel like many innovators in this space. It was a it was a crash course through supply chain that led them to the discovery of the sustainability and the impact
that every little component that we consume has on the world. So I love, I love how your stories are like, quite different, and then converge at this point of you know where sustainable supply chains and the future of food intersect, and how did you
guys end up focusing on sorghum? For people who are listening in the audience, if they're familiar with my work, they know that I am a huge enthusiast for sorghum and millets in general, which sorghum is considered a millet and and basically, because the premise being that these are incredibly climate smart, smart crops naturally. I mean, they grow very vigorously in hot, dry conditions. They they require few fertilizers.
There are so many things that make crops like sorghum, incredibly valuable for the future, but there's a relative lack of innovation in actually using these crops in human products. So when I met both of you a couple of years ago now, I was just so thrilled to hear that you had decided to focus on this and innovate in Europe. So if you could tell our listeners a little bit about what, how you came together, how you decided to focus on sorghum, and what are you doing with sorghum?
We actually, during the course, we visited a lot of farmers, and what we soon found out is often is a big issue, because everyone talks about practices, but if no one wants to buy the harvest, what is a farmer to do? Right? And then the big problem everywhere. I mean, people forget about this. We get so enchanted by the farm and we forget about the market. That's actually where we thought, okay, we have
experience in we have a commercial background. So maybe with this, offtake is actually where our role in the system is, what we then what might be good to share a little bit about Holland. Land here is extremely expensive, which means that everyone is like, we're growing potatoes, we're growing onions, we're doing it super efficiently, super in. Defensively, I must say, and grains really are farmers don't earn money with them. They often actually kind of lose money with
them, while we know that grains are super good for the soil. So we thought, let's make grains more profitable for farmers, but then if we have the standard wheat, this is a very difficult game to play. We thought we find, let's say, a unique grain in Holland, or a grain that is not very well known, because here we can really make a difference. We can campaign for
it. We can we can stand out. So that's why we picked sort of also because we just thought it was an amazingly beautiful crop, I have to say this it is, and I would say we weren't attracted. It was intuitively almost. But the more we found out about sorghum, the more we were like but this is such a special crop. We met the breeder in Holland who took the crop from Africa in Holland and was now cross breeding to make it suitable for the Dutch climate. So I think it's a little bit different from
the sorghum that you're growing in the states. The sorghum we are working with is three and a half meters high, not trend feet, but it's like twice my size, and I'm pretty tall. And then to use it for bio based materials and the grains. But the more we learned about sorghum, the more fascinated we were by maybe that's, I think, the fact that it's actually a crop that not only is the grain of high value for nutrition and both for human and animal feed.
And I know sometimes that can be a polarizing conversation, but that is a component of it. I mean, you have to have a Grade A and A Grade B channel for any crop, in case the quality is not quite perfect, but there's a huge, huge potential for sorghum, for all the other components that because it grows so much biomass every year, there is an incredible innovation for fiber, for extruded fill, for bioreactor. I
mean, it's just crazy. So I love I feel the same way, you guys, I I feel like I've been studying sorghum intensely for about a decade, and I'm just scratching the surface. Every day I learn something new, which blows me away. All materials is really part of the business model, revenue model for the farmer. We're trying to find channels how to increase revenue for the farmer, and we're really trying to explore the highest polarizations possible, whether
in food or whether in non food. So it's a really holistic model, which is important, you know, when we think about regeneration and what, what regenerative ag needs to succeed, is really a shift in thinking around the value layers that come off of productive land. Bushels per acre of a consumable item is just one value layer, like there's all these different value layers. And I, I've always been so intrigued since we first met that you have a very holistic,
circular economy approach to this. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. I think really, that's what we're trying to do, and to use as much of the plant as we can to have the highest valorization, while also keeping in mind that sorghum is good to keep on the soil, right? We don't want to take everything off the farm and then valorize it outside. But what might be interesting to mention is that we are actually working with research institutes in Europe to to really look at the unique
characteristics of the grains we're working with. So we have a little bit of knowledge about sorghum in general, but this specific, the three specific varieties we are working with, there's so much to discover about them. So both on a nutritional level and on a I'm gonna say, fiber materials, more materials, materials. So we're doing studies looking into doing studies with the Technical University, like the density of the material, all the what, really, what makes it unique,
and then based on that, to make products with it. So we are working with a food developer who has turned it into pasta. We've done pancake mix. We haven't the sorghum pasta. Actually, I think it's available. Yeah, it's, it's for sale now, the other products we are, we are testing positive reactions so far. Yeah, wonderful, yeah. But the crop is really unknown. I mean, we do so much, a huge education gap. There's a big education gap, and you mentioned circularity, and really this is the basis on
which we built our value chain. So we're really very aware of the like we don't want waste, and we try to see, whatever process we do, what can be the rest streams? How can we valorize the rest streams? Actually? Yeah. And we also look at sorghum because we have three varieties. So as anarchy said, each variety could have different properties. So we don't just talk about sorghum in general. Each variety. We have to look at what is the quality of the fiber, what is the
quality of the other components. And based on this, we can, we can see which kind of applications are the most suitable. Yeah, let's talk about sorghum genetic diversity for a second. Because of, you know, all plants have pretty incredible genetic diversity, but I feel like sorghum in particular is like a powerhouse of extreme diversity within just the genus sorghum.
And you know it, I had the opportunity to go to a sorghum breeding facility in Texas last year, led by a gentleman named Larry Richardson, who is a internationally renowned sorghum breeder, and he literally had hundreds of varieties of sorghum growing in their experimental plots that didn't even resemble each other. I mean, everything from like sorghum kernels that were larger than a P, um, to ones that, have, you know, really extreme characteristics with antioxidants or nutritional
profiles. Um, I was absolutely blown away. Some were like, very, very short, maybe as like, as long as my to my waist, and others were 20 feet tall, and definitely, like, twice our height and so probably more like the ones that you're growing in the Netherlands. But, you know, I feel like, from a business development perspective, sorghum holds a ton of utility there, just for, like, future business, like, you could spend your whole lifetime just innovating value stream businesses from sorghum.
Yeah, which is what you guys are doing. I love it. This is something, I mean, it's also in your regenerative agriculture, you really want to build on the genome diversity and diversity as bigger theme in general. I mean, we're discussing sorghum here, but I think we look we really try to bring a lot of diversity of different grains, even the
products we think we think of developing. We really think of integrating different varieties, different grains in them, so that we kind of encourage diversity on the landscape, and also diversity in your diets. 100% I mean, people forget that it's diversity on the plate that
actually ultimately drives biodiversity in the field. And we have to restore that feedback loop between market and farm and farm and market, like in a intelligent way, so that, like the farmers are responsive to demand and they, unfortunately, that's why they just grow corn, soy and wheat and rice out here in North America, anyways, like it's a very limited picture, actually, what they know, mostly, and we see that actually bringing sorghum, especially here in the Dutch Market, many
farmers are not aware of it, that the sorghum itself, as we know, has a lot of characteristics. One of them is also the sowing period. So the sowing period is different than others. And this is also interesting, because we've been having seasons where rain is falling quite a lot sowing period of other grains. And since sorghum is sold a bit later, it offers an opportunity of mitigation. So farmers, yeah, in something Yes. So I'm glad you
brought that up. We call that rescue crop here. Um, and it, and sorghum and millets in general, can be an extremely valuable rescue crop. Um, when everything else has been rained out early in the spring? Um, I love that you're bringing that up, because that's a really critical piece of the puzzle when we're looking at overall food system resiliency
and climate change. But what we see happening because then like, that makes sorghum interested in more interesting for farmers, but then, like, there's, we have to move on, on all the fields, right? We have to educate the consumer. We have to make products because we cannot. I mean, I think sorghum just boiled is delicious, but, I mean, it just, it's easier when we turn it into products that people need innovation. That's how they'll discover it. Yeah, exactly so.
But there's so much work to do on so many fields. Yeah, we cannot say, Okay, we start with the farmers, and then the rest of the value chain will follow. No, we have to, everyone has to, has to step forward and has to take a leap. Yeah. But the good thing is, we've, we've started three years ago. Now we see more and more people moving forward, we're talking to restaurants who are interested, you know, so So things start moving, and that's that's really motivating to to notice that,
to that. I mean, even us, we are new to this field. So even us, we've been learning a lot the last three years. Today is way, way more than one when we started. And it's been a big learning curve for us, and now we feel like we understand it much more, and we're ready to take steps further and to actually move it more into the market. But even for us, it's been quite a learning experience. What have been some of the biggest challenges so far?
We've had many, actually. But the thing that comes to mind is, when you're starting something like a new crop on the market, you don't start with big volume. And when we're talking about grains, grain specific scale is everything exactly and everything built on scale and uniformity. And you come here with this different grain, which has a different size, which needs different process, which is smaller in quantity, and suddenly everything changes, like machinery. For example.
We're talking about the valorization of food and non food, and maybe you want to harvest it in two different parts. We don't have this machinery. It grows and a half meters high, you might not have the machinery for it. So it's all this, and at the same time, you cannot bring products that are very expensive to the market, because that's also
something that will not help the marketing of this crop. So there's a challenge between all these costs that are high and people that have to invest their time professionals actually, to kind of explore, what can we do with this new crop and the pricing and the costs that build on small quantities. Yeah, that's a that's a big consideration. And you know, sorghum, in general, globally, is known as a very affordable crop because it does grow incredibly high yields and
requires very few inputs. So the unit economics at the farm level are favorable, but it is as it navigates the value chain that's where that cost is accrued, even though, luckily, sorghum doesn't need to be hold or have special polishing. It can be consumed as
just a whole clean grain, which is fantastic. But you know, the marketing and the innovation expenses is, it's a large upfront cost, and I know, in my experience here, you know, with my company sactivist, because we have an entire line of products developed from sorghum, ranging from Frozen ready to eat IQF all the way through to pizza crusts and finished products, but we're still stuck just selling a floured baking mix because there was no capital available to scale innovation for the last
few years, nobody had an appetite. They would only invest in scaling something that was already on the market, and so it's completely hampered that innovation process. I don't have you guys experienced that as well. Just a minimal appetite for innovation, or maybe that. It's a communication thing, I know for us, here in the US, if you're a woman and you found a company, it's an expectation you will be just a brand. Like,
there's it. There's a real pushback, I feel like, culturally, if you're an innovation company, which is more scientific and more leading edge, they're kind of like, no, no. Just go, go be a mom and go make pancake mix for your kids. So I don't know if you if you guys have experienced that tug of war with culture in the Netherlands, or if that's more of a US thing, producing it here, and we've been trying, actually, to introduce it to the market, and we've been kind of focusing on
chefs. We haven't started TPG products yet. We're brutal business, and it brings its own challenges. Yeah, I don't like it, yeah. I mean, we come a bit from this background, both of us, and we know the challenges that come with it, and it was a conscious decision kind of start B to B as well.
I think that's so smart. That's where the volume's at, too. And, um, you know, like I know for us, like we ended up, you know, just pausing our growth of our CPG brand, because our passion is around food service, but it takes time to develop those relationships like, but once you have them, they're consistent,
they're reliable, and they're at scale. So it's like, it's like a you had to be patient with that business model, but it's, I think, has a lot more long term ROI, and it has a lot more utility when it comes to driving discovery of underutilized crops like you think about quinoa and how quinoa was brought to the market successfully. It was when chefs started putting it on people's plates, and then they were like, Oh my gosh, I love
this. I would love to buy this at home. So like, for the longest time, I was really adamant about how food service had to be the champion of sorghum and millets first, and that CPG should come second, and then covid hit, and that's when we had to change our business model, because food service disappeared overnight. But we're back to only, you know, really, only focusing on food service as well here, domestically. Yeah. Yeah,
quickly come back to your are we making moms pancake mixes? I do think it's a very interesting topic that you bring up. Luckily, so far, we find ourselves surrounded by people who value, I would say, diversity as much as we do. So that's great. And we are now. We are building a achieve, a value chain around a product, with a farmer, a Miller, a food maker, a caterer, and us, and we are really looking for the balance.
So when you look at us as a group, there's women, there's people who are not originally born in Holland, you know, we don't, we don't all want this 32 year old puppy of each other. You know, we are actually looking for this, for this diversity, because we feel that, in that way, you get the best results and the most durable. Well, how can we think outside of the box without a diverse group of
people getting us there. Like, it's like, I think it's essential for innovation with new products, to bring innovative, diverse people to the table, to to look at things differently. And it's just absolutely critical. And it's, it's actually hard sometimes, how, how, like, that can kind of fall short. Like, people just have this expectation. Like, here in the United States, they like the expectation on the market is that if it's a sorghum based product, it's only for
gluten free people. And I'm like, no, no, no no. Like, sorghum is fantastic blended with wheat. Like, as soon as we bring in capital, like, we have a pasta product that is a wheat sorghum hybrid. It's a millet sorghum wheat hybrid. We would
love to get it out into food service, you know. And it's to me that those are the kind of innovations that we need to break through the stigma that all of these alternative crops are only for people with a special diet, because that's not the case like I really believe that sorghum needs to be reintegrated back into just mainstream products like and
it's fascinating. There's a guy here who's a real historian on on millet history, millets, including sorghum, and has gone back through a lot of the original writings of the the founding members of the United States, colonies, like, you know, the early founding they called the founding fathers, and when you read their agricultural diaries, there's a lot of reference to sorghum, and they they mixed it into their bread
flour. And so in colonial America, it was a revered crop, especially in the East Coast and the south, where it's warmer. And it's so weird to me that it fell out of favor when it was so critical to early America, the early American, you know, heritage of like, what agriculture was in the in the early days, there's a lot of knowledge lost, I imagine, yeah, a ton, the food maker we are working with. He's from Uganda, and he grew up with
sorghum, like his grandparents would grow sorghum. He has these stories. It's a crop that he he knows. He knows how it reacts, how it works, yeah, exactly. That's a big, I love that. Yeah, absolutely is a huge advantage. I think there's quite an appetite, actually, for
innovation and that. I mean, everybody wants to kind of bring something new, have a nice story to tell, if they can make something more nutritious, but at the same time, you see that there is some kind of checklist that people want to kind of be checking. For example, they have limits on how much pricey it can
be they have. They have certain tastes they want to have. So I think it's really like working together, this, this co creation idea, even involving the farmer and bringing back the feedback loop to the farmer to the growth. I think this is really important as well, and product innovation, I agree. We have been calling that model an innovation brokerage. And it's an intentional like value chain connection, where it's from germ plasm and like seed genetics all
the way through the value chain to the end use. And like seeing the whole process holistically, through that kind of innovation brokerage concept. It's a lot of the work that we like to do as well, and I totally agree that it gives you, I feel like an advantage in trying to do things that are new and novel when you approach it that way. I don't know if you guys have ever used that term for us. We like to bring something. We like the innovation is a big inspiration for us. Also, yeah,
yeah. It's, it is the key. So how, as far as, like, you know, the the the people who are buying these products now or sampling them, like the chefs. So far, what are the responses that you're seeing? Are people shocked when they try sorghum and they're like, oh my gosh, where's this been? Why? Why have I never tried this? Is that what you're hearing or, or what I would love to hear more about, like, just the response from people.
We've had the range of responses and no responses. So sometimes, initially, we would give samples, and we would keep on following and no response whatsoever. Other times, really, I mean the product. They love it. And for example, they would create a dessert with it, and then they would ask for more than they would block the program and then put it on a
salad. For example, we've worked with very different variety, whether it's chefs that are more creative, whether it's more catering companies, but also, for example, staple foods, which is more direction we're taking. So pastas, also bread, mix, cereal. For breakfast with also, kind of sent samples to brewers to see what kind of beers they can come with sorghum. And we had, we had quite enthusiastic responses, not always translating into big orders, but I think it's a good start, at least,
yeah. And people, people love the taste, and people love the story. And I think that that is two things that that really make the crop stand out. And, yeah, I think no negative responses. I mean, sometimes people, they didn't get back to us, but, but also the tastings we did for for the pasta or the or the pancake mix, or we turn it into a salad, we had a great intern for a while, who who made us recipes and presented them at, yeah,
which was, I would say, everyone is, everyone loves it. No, that's been my experience too. We've recently, yeah, been like, doing some tastings with chefs. And we hear, and I'm sorry, Sheriff, we hear, why haven't we tried this before? Like, where has this been? We hear that a lot. But then what happens? I'm curious. Yoni, then, then would
they order in the menu? Or what would Yeah, so we have been focusing more on, like large organizations that manage many, many institutional kitchens like college campuses and hospitals and so, you know, we did like the tastings. The chefs couldn't believe it. They loved it. They wanted to use it. The people in charge loved it. Want to use it. And now we're just like in that slow contract negotiation phase. So our hopes is that by getting into some larger organizations
that we can secure, like, some really good, larger volumes. And so it's like, really narrowing our focus to those consumer demographics. Like, for example, with the IQF sorghum, it's a it's a whole cooked sorghum, and then it's frozen, and it's individual, quick frozen. So it's like, almost like frozen peas, like it. It's separate. And what the chefs are loving about that is that they can just heat it and serve it, or they can just thought and put it on salads. It doesn't even require
heating. It's ready to eat. So those are the ones that we're seeing a huge response for. But again, the time lag of getting the contract actually solidified and executed has been painfully slow, which you guys understand how frustrating that can be, but it's just bureaucracy. Maybe it's also good to look at things in perspective. I mean, introducing a new crop, I'm expecting, expecting volumes will be picking up in the first year, is also rushing things. I
think that way, yeah. I think, I think I mean, upon how the medium term keeps and can can kind of build up the demand. I think this is a more realistic way to look at things, yeah, yeah. Well, because the thing is, is, like, we want it to be a long term transition and and really quick fads often really quickly go away. And with something like this, it's like
it's going to be a permanent shift and a new normalcy. And I agree with you that does take a little time and patience to get there, but it's it's worth it in the long run. And another question for you, Yoni, I'm curious, because you're big on the full of instead of the free from. Not sure if I'm using
the exact right phrase, but yeah, that was right, great. I wonder if that, if that's something that resonates with your audience, or if it's really the taste or or what you would say is the most attractive element, yeah. So I think, um. Um. One of the things we've struggled with um in our early iterations is that in the United States, there's this real need to put everything in a box of like, it's free from gluten, or it's free from allergens, or it's
free from grains, or it's free from animal products. Like, it's a very reductionistic consumer navigation pathway. Like, it's very It's, um, I find it to be kind of a negative process. I feel like it isolates innovation and makes it hard to think about things in a holistic model. Like, what are the great attributes? Like, why would you want to eat it? It's delicious, it's nutritious. It's got a great climate story. Farmers
want to grow it. It's beneficial, and it has been hard to really make movement forward with that narrative, especially in the retail, which, again, we've moved away from retail. But I would sit down with buyers, and we would talk about these ancient grains and why they're so important for all these things, and then at the end of the day, all they took away from it is like, Oh, it's a gluten free vegan company. I'm like, No, we are not a gluten free vegan company by a long
shot. However, if we're going to make a product out of sorghum, it may as well be gluten free and vegan so that the maximum
amount of people can enjoy it. I think that being full of is so much more than being free from personally, and so I've had a personal frustration with the market not being ready to accept that story comes down to, would you say the audiences, audiences you work with now that they are more receptive to this message, And is that also because they can then spread that to their Yeah, I definitely feel like there's been a huge shift in the last
year, um, like, especially in the last year, where people are just wanting to hear more about nutrient integrity, whether that be nutrient density or, you know, special compounds, like sorghum is full of compounds that we know are beneficial to the gut, for gut microbiome, those kind of conversations I feel like are starting to be heard, and people are moving away from that. What is it free of? And instead thinking, why is
this good for me? And that is really what needs to happen for for adoption of all of these opportunity cross crops, a they need to be delicious. People need to discover them for culinary use. But I think they need to understand that it's, it's, it's a value to them to die, to diversify their diet, regardless of special needs, of, you know, whatever, of special dietary needs. I think actually, we could all learn from each other. I mean,
we follow, of course, what you do in the universe. We enjoy a lot your posts. But also, I mean, there's a lot of creativity happening there, and you are very active on promoting sorghum. And, yeah, I mean, in Europe, we also try, in different ways to and I think collaboration between us, and what we find here, what you find there, is also quite because it's the markets are asking for the same things when I hear now, yeah, I think so too, yeah. And I would love to do more
collaboration. I mean, for me, honestly, it's, it's, um, it's trying to figure out where those path of least resistance initiatives lie. Like, where are those things that people try and have that aha moment, like chefs, and then they make that commitment, like, I'm going to be getting this on the plate, and then how do we support them in telling that story? Like, I feel like there's a really strong need for point of
consumption education. So if somebody's eating sorghum for the first time at a restaurant, like I don't know how to do this, but do we give them a QR code that they can scan and learn about it? Do they care? Are they going to take the time to do that? Those are those questions I still have, and I'd be curious to know, if you guys have explored any of that, maybe we are actually currently exploring. And I would say that, like sorghum is one of the crops we're looking at, but we're also
looking at other grains and then. But the question is also, what are what are you then? What is behind this QR code, right? Do people, would they like to meet the farmer around them that is growing the crops? Would they like to meet the guy who's turning these local grains into pastas that they've never eaten
and that right bloat them? Would they like to meet the miller who, because of his strong male, is not losing all of the fibers that the grain, the missing middle no one ever tells those stories like it's sad to me, yeah. So what is it that people would like to know? And I think we've, we've now seen kind of scan a QR code and meet your farmer, but there's so much more to tell about a crop. There's so much more about about a product, right? So, so we are not. It's
kind of playing with it. What do we want to show do we want to, as you said, all the increased nutritional values. Do we talk about this? Yeah, so we're testing this. I know it's like hard to know what the most important point is. And I'm really glad that you mentioned the the humanization of the value chain, because yes, there's this thing of like, Oh,
where did our food come from? We want to see a human who grew it like, who's the farmer, who's the rancher, and then the whole middle is like a missing, dehumanized, mechanistic realm. But the reality is, is like, those are all people who are business owners and dedicated people who are touching your food, and they are making it into what it is when you consume it, I get very frustrated that we don't give any attention to that layer. It's completely, Yeah,
completely agree. It's, it's the people that we want to to show. We want to show it's produced on a human scale, but also how impactful the processing step is for the end result. Because it is not only the program that is suddenly going to end up as a past hour, as a as another food product. It's how you process it. In the middle define so much of of what it becomes, of the quality of it. You can lose so much during processing at the
same time, it can also add so much. So we are, yeah, great, and a lot of, a lot of the cost is reflective of that value chain, and it's, it's meaningful, and I would maybe add also, I mean, there's a lot of nice stories that can be told and but it's also important to see what, what is actually having effect on the end consumer. What would help selling the product, being away, of course, from
greenwashing. But sometimes you would wonder, I mean, is it, for example, that if the if the if the consumer knows that this product's coming from this farm, is this going to help the growing the market, for the farmer, because for the for the product itself. And these are, these are things that we're still trying to see, what, what actually would work, what kind of message,
big audience, right? Because, of course, there are some people interested in where their food grows, but maybe the majority of the people they want to know that is good, small, yeah, I think, I think the average person is, like, their first level of interest is, obviously, it doesn't taste good, and can I afford it? But then second is, is, is it good for me? And then sourcing and impact, whether that be social or environmental, seems to be further down as far as driving,
purchasing or driving, the decision to try a product. So I feel like the focus on nutrition and how it affects your body here in the United States is probably the most important thing to lead with so far. I get really excited about the climate part of it, but the reality is, is that I think the vast majority of consumers are kind of far removed from that.
At least here, it's too bad. But for businesses, for example, a lot of businesses in Europe are putting climate targets and CO two reduction limits, and one of the criteria they look at is actually, what is the footprint
of the product? Yeah, yep, if your customer is a business, I think this aspect gains in importance, and the more you show them actually how how better this is or how it can help with reducing the footprint, the better it can be such an important point, because that's a B to B sales conversation, not necessarily B to C, like the end end. Consumer may not care a whole lot, but the buyer who agreed to serve that at their college campus cafeteria, that was likely their
decision. They were like, Great, this tastes good. I know with us in our in our corporate initiatives that we have, the one that involves sorghum, it was 100% because of a climate initiative that they agreed to do. IQF sorghum. Yeah, so I that I'm so glad you brought that up sherry. And if that's the way in, then, then that's the way in, right? We believe so much and in the crops that, yeah, that then the crop will do its own setting. I mean, if that's how people, yeah, it's all good,
exactly. We have to be creative when creating a category around underutilized crops, and I'm really pleased to see that there's just every week, I see more and more momentum, there's more awareness, and I'm seeing more and more articles coming from government, NGOs and private sector all together. So it makes me feel confident that the future is going there and.
For those of us who are very early adopters, it's a little bit rough because you're like the point of the spear, but you know it's I'm feeling hopeful that we're getting closer every day. So I Yeah, exactly so. So for both of you, for our listeners who'd like to follow up, they want to see where they could get your products. They want to maybe engage with you
personally. How? How do they best do that? As far as websites, social media, etc, I would say the best thing to do is to follow us on LinkedIn or springtail, and we have a nice logo that kind of you see a crop, and then you see a plus. It was nature positivity. This was kind of our generation. That's where we do most of our updates. Look we visited this mill. This is what we learned there. This is why processing is so important. Yeah, fun. I mean
things people make with sorghum. We will share other insights. Great. Does springtail have a website? We do go to springtel.eu springtel.eu We are quite ambitious in keeping it up to date. But I have to say the LinkedIn like, there's so many things that I'm I'm totally in the same camp. That's where, like all the most up to date stuff happens for for us too, is LinkedIn. That's great.
So for I will make sure to put those links in the show notes so that people can follow you and engage with you on LinkedIn and also find your website. And this has just been great you guys. I you know, I am really pleased you took the time out of your busy week on a Friday afternoon, and, yeah, it's just, it's just
been great to get an update. Honestly, I'm, I'm more excited than I was before, to just keep up with what you guys are doing and see how we can work together to just make sorghum and other great climate smart crops the norm. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you for joining me. And for those of you
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