Joanna, hello, everyone. You are listening to the regenerative by design podcast where we will be getting to the root of health, climate, economics and food. I am your host. Joni quinwell Moore, join me on this journey as we explore the stories of individuals and organizations who are working to realign our food system with both human health and the health of our planet. Welcome everybody to the regenerative by design Podcast.
I'm Joni your host. I'm so happy to have you here today because we have one of my favorite regional farmers joining me here, Aaron Beier Brock, who is from Eastern Washington, or Central Washington, and he's going to tell us today about his farming management. He has a large farm and does all kinds of
incredible things. And in my mind, Aaron, and then also one of his good friends and neighbor farmers, Douglas pool, are two of the leaders in our region that are really proving that we can change the paradigm around at scale, dryland, AG, and do it better for us and better for the planet. So welcome, Aaron. I'm so stoked that you're here with us today. Hi, Joanie, thanks for having me today. Yeah, yeah. So I feel like we've gotten to know one another over the last couple
of years. And I was first introduced to your work via our, you know, our bio farming and farm smart group of farmers that
we're so lucky to have. And for those of you who are listening and you didn't catch the episode where I interviewed Ty Meyer and then Scott Gale, years back during season one, we are so lucky in the Inland Northwest that our Spokane Conservation District and Pacific Northwest direct Seed Association years back, put together a regional regenerative verification program to make soil health a huge focus for at scale, dryland ag and and you guys were really early movers in that whole
thing, weren't you? Yeah, we're super lucky to have Ty Meyer and the Conservation District working on this for us, because in our area that Doug and I farm, there's no one else doing what we're doing. It's really nice to have a group that we can share stories with and
successes and failures and people to bounce ideas off. And I think it would be very hard to do if we were the only ones doing it 100% and one of the things I've always loved hearing from your group of farmers a it's really cool, because I feel like you guys are all really genuinely committed to what you're doing,
and you're all friends and like good people. And every year I see you guys come together and really swap notes, and I feel like you get, like, 10 years of learning in in a season by sharing your experiences in a really raw way to be true, it's great. You know, we just got back from the conservation districts farm and food symposium, and I'm starting to notice that every time our group gets together, it's more and more like a family reunion, that with a family you really, yeah,
cousin family. Yeah, it really is. It really is. And, you know, I just feel like, um, it's really great to to learn from you all, because I'm not a farmer. I mean, grew up with a foot in the farm, but not ever running a farm. And when I'm out in the world talking about regenerative and I'm always on the market side, or the more of that kind of thought leadership, evangelizer stance, and I always hear from people, but that's not possible. There's no way that you can do at scale productive
agriculture not being completely dependent on chemicals. That's what we've been told for decades, and that's what we know to be true. Do you find that to be true, Aaron, we're trying to disprove that as best we can. Yeah, yeah. No. Doug and I both farm in a seven to nine inch rainfall zone here in like a desert. It's like a desert. Desert moisture is absolutely our limiting factor. But that doesn't mean that it's just a smaller scale than what the guys that have irrigation, a lot of
water are used to. You know, about 10 years ago, we started doing no till, and NRCS has great programs to pursue the conservation side of things, and they're starting to catch on to the soil health side of things, but it's kind of slow, so we're kind of on our on our own here, and so we're trying to use their conservation dollars to to do the conservation side of it, but also to increase our soil health. And one of the things that I'm that I'm starting for the first time this year, is
continuous cropping. I you know, follow, we live in a conventional fallow area, but we've been doing no till, like I said, for 10 years, and it just drives me crazy having that fallow ground sit up there and you're spraying, you know, three to four applications of Roundup or other harsh chemicals a year. There's no living roots in the soil during that period. Yeah, wasteland. And then come August, when it's the hottest, hottest part of the year, we're praying that we've got moisture left
over to. Had a crop in the ground, and it would always just give me heartache at night. So I was lucky. Counter intuitive, there's just nothing growing out there, so it's just a dead a
dead, massive soil. And so I was lucky enough to get about half of my less desirable ground into the sage grouse program through NRCS equip program, and that left me with about 1500 acres, and I didn't want to follow 750 and and harvest 750 so I got this bright idea, why don't we just continuous crop every acre every year, and we'll try some different crops so we can get some diversity in the soil. And this will be my first full year
doing that. 100% I've been kind of playing with it. But you know, last year here in Waterville area, we had no rain after we planted our spring wheat, and it still yielded 20 bushel the acre. Now we live in a 40 bushel the acre average winter wheat area, so to me, not having that herbicide expense to fallow. It's a no brainer. I don't Yeah, right. Honestly, the herbicides, my chem fallow expense has been my highest expense annually. Easily, it's about way above everything else.
Now, Aaron, for our listeners, because there's probably people out there that, you know, I when I think about who our listeners are, I'd say there's a there's a percentage that are farmers, but far more are people who are interested in learning more about regenerative agriculture, and they're coming from other industries or from other verticals outside of actual
farming. Could you explain a little bit about, you know, what your farming experience has been, and you know, like, a little bit more about the crops that you grow, and why this, this concept of chem fallow, like a what is chem fallow? We know what it is, but I've heard this from many people before who attend conferences and stuff. Nell Newman and I were talking about this, and she came to our artisan Inland Northwest artisan grains conference a couple years ago, and she said, chem fallow.
What is chem fallow? And why do we do it? So I'm gonna have you back up for a second and talk a little bit about your farm, what you farm, and this whole notion of chemical fallow, like, what? What is it, and why do farmers do it? Yeah, sure. I'll back up a little farther and go to before chem fallow, when we were doing extensive tillage on the ground to keep the weeds down and kind of and hold the moisture. And you know, there's still farmers in my area, and I'm not saying
they're doing it wrong. It's because it works. It's just, I think there's a better way. But they're going out 678, times, and tilling the ground. And every time you pull steel through that ground, you're releasing carbon in the air. You're burning diesel. Yes, you are killing weeds that way. And yes, you are. You know, setting sort of a moisture line that you
pretty much will last all summer. So you have, you're preserving moisture that way, but you're also letting it go, you know, to a certain depth, and a lot of soil erosion. I mean, I know when I drive around during tilling season, there are, there's like epic dust storms that are kind of starting to develop the water every spring. Yeah, there's ditches in these fields because there's just not there to hold all that moisture. So it runs, it cuts ditches and and guys, just till I'm in and I
think if you know, there's a creek right by my house. And every time we get a thunderstorm, it is brown as can be, all that soil is just washing down into the Columbia River. Yeah, so when we started doing direct seed, we, I guess the idea was that, the original idea was for erosion. But, you know, there's, it's not all that. It's not, it's not all great because we're, we're going out in the spring and applying about 20 ounces of Roundup, glyphosate and probably another
broadleaf chemical like 240 or Banville. And every 30 days, we're doing the same thing, but we're upping our dose every single time we spray. Yeah, that to the point of, you know, probably an import of Roundup and and so we were putting on, you know, terrifying, really, total about three quarts of Roundup per acre, along with some other chemicals and
surfactants that are bad for the soil. It's interesting at the farm and food symposium are you didn't go to the Advanced soil health day, but I did, and it came out there that the World Health Organization has declared that Roundup, or glyphosate, they recognize it as a carcinogen, and so I would imagine that the roundup usage in the United States will start being jeopardized. So I. After four applications of Roundup and
heavier doses every time, on the dry, old soil. Now we're expecting an auger, hoping in August we have moisture to see the crop and and it for me, it was about 5050, sometimes we didn't. It's a real crap shoot with moisture in August, in the Inland Northwest, so bone dry and so dang hot. Um, I mean, for the for folks who are listening, who aren't from around here, you think of the Pacific Northwest, and you think, like, lush, like Seattle, Portland, rainy all the time. But where you guys are,
you're truly in the rain shadow of the Cascades. And you're in the rain shadow of, like, the really high part of the Cascades, like Northern Cascades National Park, which is, like, it's, like, Glacier. It's huge. Yeah, be the mountains from our fields. They're right there, yeah, causing that moist air to blow right over the top of us and land in clic city and East Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's interesting to think
of, like, all those chemicals being put on the ground. Also, because we know that water drives biology, biology is what breaks down those chemical residues. And so being in a really arid area, you're you're at much higher risk of accumulating kind of just residues of a lot of these chemicals, just because they're not breaking down as fast.
That's what I've always hypothesized. So, yeah, it's So what made you think like, one day Owen's like, or, you know, like, Hey, I'm kind of tired of this, like, I want to do something different. What was that moment all about? For you, talking no fall terms, when we, when we buy all of our chemical in the spring and summer, and, yeah, finally pay that bill and October, it's really eye opening, yeah. And not only that, you know, it's the fact that in the fallow years,
there's just nothing growing out there. I mean, they, the principles of soil health tell you that you have to have a living root out there is often all the time, which isn't really realistic in our area. But we aren't by going to an often as possible, as often as possible, and by going to an annual cropping situation, I'll go out there in the spring and put a light rate, around, up, down, you know, 12 ounces. And I think I could even cut that out with some different chemistries. Just
need to look at how they actually affect soil health. But if I put a light rate, say, 12 ounces, round up down in the spring and clean that ground up, because you want to start with a clean slate. With a clean slate every time. And seed our seed our crops. I mean, it's about a 70% reduceage in glyphosate for our farm, which is huge, huge. 70% reduction is a big deal. That's a really big deal. The biggest problem in the spring is grassy
weeds. And so I think if we there's a we there's a, you know, there's, there's grass herbicides that are a little safer, that break down in sunlight, like we might be able to use instead, and which, if we can do that, we'd cut out our glyphosate 100% now, I'm not ready to do that full scale yet, but it's a thought I had, yeah, and who knows what the, you know, potential externalities are of those other chemicals? A lot of times we just don't know.
But I know a lot of farmers are really like, in that delicate fine line of like, we want to reduce our chemicals like, as much as possible for so many reasons, but we still can't sacrifice huge amounts of loss of productivity because you're
fighting the weeds so hard. And I I work with a lot of organic farmers in the region because of my work as the value chain coordinator for our Montana gluten free project, and it's a USDA grant funded project, and we're working with organic farmers throughout the region, and we have a processing facility in Belgrade, Montana, and I have been really shocked,
actually, to hear how intense the weed pressure is. And I feel for these farmers, because a few of them have, have, you know, admitted that they're worried that they won't be able to keep their organic certification, because the weeds are just getting so bad that they're at a point of, like, they don't know
what else to do. They're like, losing the battle. And so I think we need to talk more about this, like, happy medium of chemical use, like, because we can't just, like, stop feeding the world and not have food, but then we want to reduce the
chemical usage. And at the end of the day, if we really get real about soil health and repairing the soil and making sure we have the healthiest beginning ecosystem to start with, it seems like the weed pressure and the disease pressure starts to correct itself better, like you don't have as deeply endemic weed problems sometimes. Is that what you see? Yeah, and one, I think one way, you know, if we wanted to go organic, the way we would have to do that, is add some tillage
in the spring. And you know, tillage is the one thing we want to get away from, because it kills your soil. I don't know what's worse, a little bit of Roundup or a little bit of tillage, but if we did a little bit of tillage, we would be cutting out our chemical now, another common practice in our area is after the wheat established is to hit it with a broad leaf to kill any broadleaf weeds, your mustard, your thistles. Are growing out there. And we're going to play around
this year with some companion cropping. Now, if you look at a cover crop that's got different varieties species out there, grasses, broad leaves, you really don't see any thistle. This was our biggest problem, thistles and mustard. You really don't see any of that out. I think what happens is, is in a monoculture situation, your biology say we're planting wheat, and the biology needs diversity in the soil so it it
has a seed bank available sitting there. We all got piles of weed seeds in our fields, just from things rolling across and blowing across. And so that biology says, Hey, there's a thistle plant here, or a seed. Let's plant that so we can get a broadleaf plant. I think if we do some companion cropping, which we're gonna small scale play with this year, we're planting a planting our wheat, for example, and a broad leaf, maybe a clover or something like that, a lamp, I don't know,
something we wouldn't even take to harvest. So we're providing that soil with a broad leaf and a grass so it's got diversity. I I'm, I'm really hoping that we can eliminate our weeds from growing. Yeah, that is such a provocative concept to me, that it's like, by being intentional about the ecosystem community that is in the field, that that actually signals and regulates the ability of certain weeds to become a pressure like thistles. And I've yet to read the book when weeds talk is, I think
that's what it's called. You read that? No, yeah, I've seen excerpts from it. I've heard many people like quote things from it. So, oh, and you and I are going to have to have our
own little book club this winter. That'd be great that, because I saw my list of things that I just really want to, I want to dig through, because I find that to be such a cool concept that, you know, the the allelopathy, or the plant today, it's or whatever happens in the biology that helps to regulate the the presence or absence of the other crop, the other plants
that grow in the field. Like, if we can really start to understand that, which I know that there are people out there who are working very hard to understand that, um, that's, that's, like, a kind of a revolutionary concept. And so, like you just said, planting a broad leaf poly species mix with your wheat or whatever, suddenly you've you've accomplished weed control without tillage or chemicals, and you're using chemicals that are naturally present in the plants that are
planted there. Yeah, absolutely what that means. We observe, you know, what happens in our fields, and we do some cover cropping. And like I said, when we see a cover crop out there that's got a good stand and healthy and a diverse mix of species, you don't see weeds. So it makes sense that when you're doing a monoculture crop like
wheat, why there would be weeds out there? Yeah, you know, you got this one plant competing against itself for all the same stuff that biology is pretty smart, and when it has of seeds available that are going to fulfill a need, it'll take that thistle or that mustard or that Kosha or whatever, that strictly lettuce, and get it going so it can satisfy what It needs. Yeah,
yeah. It's so fascinating. Now, you know, if you're going for another crop, like a clover or a legume of some sort, now you're going to get some other nitrogen fixation too. Would that help change your nitrogen applications? Or would that be like for the following season? Well, Johnny, since we are, we are, I guess you can say now we're 100% regenerative. We are not putting any fertilizer in the ground.
Oh, yeah, let's unpack that, because that is a cool concept, like, let's, let's take a minute to Could you tell our listeners what that means and how how this works from your perspective? Well, we're lucky enough to have a good soil health agronomist on our side. Mike Nestor was throwing out a geronto me, yeah, and I so when we go to these conferences, I he's taking notes, and I really don't, because it's just important for me to understand the concept, and I need him to understand the
1000 foot level. You know, what's really going on with the soil, but we've the soil biology will provide the plant with what it needs to survive. So my 20 Bucha spring weight last year had no no synthetic fertilizers. All we did was we put some organic rock phosphate, which is mostly calcium, in the ground, because I have hard soils, and we're trying to break those up so we can get some oxygen in there, so the biology can thrive more, yeah, and he was a huge part of that, absolutely.
And he puts together a, it's a extract made from worm castings to get the biology really moving. And that's all we put. I put that in furrow with the seed. And. And the rock phosphate also, and that's all I do. Wow. So no outside fertilizers at all. Now, you know, Doug's still doing some winter wheat, and so he will top dress his wheat with with fertilizer, but with the spring wheat, you know, we're not going to yield that high with it anyway, and I'm not going to put any more into it.
In fact, our spring weight this year, the 20 Bucha crop, which it all went about 20, it had about a 12 and a half percent protein level. And so without adding nitrogen, that's actually impressive. So you learn with soft white wheat, the Ideal Protein level is about 10 and a half percent. And so a higher protein level
means it had enough nitrogen for a higher yield. It just didn't have the water, yeah, so at 12 and a half percent, we had more nitrogen than we needed, yeah, had you had a little bit of water, it probably would have pushed that nitrogen level
down a little bit. It's so interesting how that protein and water availability are inversely related in so many crops, yep, and yield and so we had, we had what we needed for more yield, just, just not water, yeah, no nitrogen applied, we had more than, more than we needed. What did the test weights on that wheat turn out like it was all number it was all number one wheat, right at 6061, 62 pounds, actually. So it was good. It didn't suffer any from
not having synthetics in the soil. And I don't know, and we're playing with other crops, you know, we're doing sorghum and millet, and we haven't been fertilizing those. And I our sorghum didn't work out that well this year because we planted too late. It froze before it can before it can make a seed. But the MEL worked out pretty good. And it was it was harvested this in October, and it had a great stand. Where it
was good, you know, where it had a great stand. Other areas it just dried out this summer, but none of that was fertilized commercially or, you know, with how's that affect your profitability? I mean, that's a big deal when you're not purchasing a bunch of extra, you know, inputs. Well, it helps a lot. You know, the worm castings and the rock phosphate aren't free, yeah, yeah. They are starting to save
our own seed. I think that that seed grown in our own soil, when it comes out, it's, it's, it's changed a little bit to adapt to the environment it was grown in. So I, you know, I think there's something to that sort we're gonna start with having our own seed. We're gonna eliminate that expense. And the The hope is, once our soil health is better, and we have a little bit our soil is not as compact. It's broken up a little bit where
oxygen can get down in there. It's got more structure that we will have to that we will be able to reduce infiltration of water too, I'm sure, absolutely, and that we'll be able to reduce or eliminate these inputs that we are using incredible. Let's
go back to this continuous cropping then. So, you know, we've, we've just kind of experienced your trajectory, and like, you know, the kind of farming you had been doing, and this, this, this journey that you guys have made to being in this regenerative zone, so you're now going into continuous cropping. And how is that going to affect your need to use chemicals like herbicides during the rest of your growing season? Well, we're back to this companion cropping thing. If
this works, then that it's going to be great. Yeah. You know, last year I did spray 240 hertz, you know, some broadleaf herbicide on the spring wheat. If we can get away from that, that's going to be great. Yeah, yeah. Every time we can get rid of a chemical, in my mind, that's a big deal, because it's just, we don't know. I look at it like a nurse, you know, I'm like, every time we can get, not give a patient a chemical and then impact their health. Like,
that's the gold standard, you know. And absolutely, when you need the chemicals in this emergency, or you absolutely need them, you've, you've, like, you know, you really need it. It's not just indiscriminate use or it's very conditioned a lot in this it does. I see crazy stuff out there, these chemical companies that are pushing their products. They're very good salesmen, and they've got for forever. They've they've made
people believe they have to use their products. I would like to get to a point where we're only using those, you know, chemistry, when we really, really have to, because I wanted, I would much rather rely on the biology of the soil to correct these, these issues that we have. Yeah, like Keith mortar always says, um, it's fun, because I, I loved this quote, and I was doing an interview with him, and so I put
it on some some stuff. It said, Well, do you want to be a slave to the chemical company, or do you want to be a. Slave to the soil he's like, I'd rather be a slave to soil biology all day long. And I just thought that was, like, a great quote, you know, because he's like, look, we're gonna have to be working with something like, you gotta, you've gotta choose, and that means we have to do something to to help that soil biology along, to, yeah,
feed it. I mean, the plants are also farmers and people often forget that that plants are farmers too, and that they're dedicating a huge portion of their sugars and metabolites to the soil to nurture the microbiome of the soil so that it provides the best food for them. And in conventional systems, we've kind of like we kind of have assumed that plants operate in a vacuum, so that if we just sterilize the soil and then give them exactly what they need, they'll just grow and
flourish. But what we've found is that they're high susceptibility of disease and pests and don't produce this high quality food. And I would imagine that with what what you and Doug are doing up there you and Douglas, it's, you know, it'd be great to do some nutrient density testing, if you guys haven't already, and see where you're at compared to other conventional commodities.
Yeah, you know, at the farm and food symposium is when they they kind of told us that nutrient density in foods doesn't depend on organic or conventional or all these other kinds of farming. It depends on soil health. Healthy soil produces nutrient dense food. No, I'm not sure how we would measure that ourselves, but I know there's something to that. Yeah, absolutely. And then the other thing, I'm sorry, Johnny, one of
the other things, go ahead. It's fascinates me that kind of, you know, it turn the light bulb on for me is this whole rhizophage thing, and how this, the roots interact with the microbes in the soil for to get nutrients. And when we put synthetic fertilizers in the ground, it shuts off that cycle. You know, the last guests I had on the podcast were our friends from Tania biologicals, and Bruce and Dennis, and we talked
a lot about rhizophage and that whole feedback system. So, like, I'd love to actually hear a little bit more from you about that. And like, what you've seen, I know that's like, it's there. I mean, they take it to, like, really fun, super nerd level, which I might do that for you. I'll send you the link. It is probably one of my favorite podcasts I've ever recorded, because you know how it is with those guys. You get them going,
and it's, like, just incredible. But like this whole concept of like that that we've underappreciated how the use of chemicals shut down the plants innate natural abilities to
regulate their own nutrition and their own environment. And a lot of the time when I'm when I'm talking to farmers that have gone down a regenerative management pathway, that's one of the more beautiful takeaways, is that they they're like, we're actually allowing the plants to actually take care of themselves better by getting out of the way. Well, you look at the pasture ground around, it's never been fertilized, and the plants are pretty healthy. Yeah, right.
There's something to it, yeah. Another thing we're not doing anymore is putting seed treatment, on our seed factor, inoculating it with the worm casing. That's a hot topic, the seed seed treatment. And you were using everything synthetic in the soil. That's, that's the Yeah, yeah, that's the goal. So, you know, with your continuous cropping, you mentioned that you're doing that this year, and
what, what kind of crops are you looking at? We've talked about sorghum and millet, which, if you know me, you know, I get excited about sorghum and millet, wheat. What other crops do you grow up there? Just to note on the sorghum, I'm not going to say we've been successful on sorghum yet. You know, the first, yeah, first year we grew it. Never dried out enough to harvest it. I mean, he's harvestable, just not enough to store it. So I let sit
all winter. And then we got lucky in March this year and had a worm spill, and I went out and harvested and it worked out great. I kind of had heartache leaving it out over the winter, but if that's what we do, and then this year, you know, we got hooked up with Larry Richardson, he recommended that we seed it later. So the first basket in May 17. And then this year we see it May or June 7. Yeah, about the time it was setting ahead in the a colonel in the head. It froze. So,
so frustrating. And we had a like, a odd summer in our part of the world, like August was cool and wet, in which it normally isn't. Did you experience that that didn't even throw ahead because it was so dry? Wow, no kidding. So our solution is seed earlier. Get the plant established. If it freezes out, then it freezes out. I would rather have it
freeze out early than late. At least if we freaked out early, we can come in there or something else, or even if we have to follow it, we follow it, or put a cover out there, or something like that. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. And what other crops are you? Oh, sorry, go ahead. No, the challenge is the markets, finding a market for these crops. Oh, as you and I know, well, we have, I have spent 10 years. Trying to grow markets for sorghum and millet, and there
has been no help. Um, like, literally every invest, almost every investor in the world, except for ones that are in the sorghum industry, literally pat you on the back. And they're like, God, this is such important work. Good luck with that. And I'm like, Okay, so we're expected to build markets for novel, underutilized crops and have no marketing budget and
no help and little infrastructure. Like, it's ridiculous, and it's been, it's been a real lesson to me, because it's like, you know, the UN invited me to speak about this topic, but I can't get anybody in North America excited enough to, like, blend, you know, to lean in, like retailers. Don't you think, though there's, there's just too much money in the way things are right now? I
guess so. But you'd think that, like the whole foods and the sprouts and like those more influential natural products, channels would want to lean in, but I have found them to be very resistant to the messaging. And I'm like, you guys, you're getting behind regenerative but regenerative corn, wheat and rice, is not going to solve things. No, we actually need diversity in order to regenerate. And a diversity in the field is driven by diversity on the plate, because that's
what drives the market. And if they expect farmers to invest in all the crop diversity while only supporting markets for Regenerative wheat and rice and corn, then they're setting you guys up for failure. And I actually kind of hold them responsible for it. I've really taken them to task lately because I'm tired of it. I'm really tired of them ignoring people like us and leaving us out to dry and being you know, when you're the bleeding tip of the spear and you're leading the
way, it's like you're already at risk. And then the fact that they don't offer any support just adds adds to it. So and I think the the conventional wisdom is that we need to have mass produced food in order to feed the world, even though there's, there doesn't, it's not a nutrient dense product. It's, yes, it does feed the world, but people look how many people are sick in the world too. Yeah, you know exactly, calories and health do not necessarily, um,
correlate in a perfect in a perfect manner. Um, like the United States is just a perfect example of excess calories with still having gross micronutrient deficiencies, yeah, and, you know, and that just drives over eating, because the body still thinks it's starving. So, you know, we really got long lines. We've really got to work on that. Yeah, we've really got to work on that, and we'll continue to, of course. I mean, you know, you know, you know me, but it's, it's been frustrating because
I've, I've heard loud and clear. Now, working with the farm smart and bio farming group since I think 2018 like that, that that was the biggest deal was we had to drive market development for diverse crops. And we, I feel like we haven't made any headway. Unfortunately. Oh, I think, I think you've made headway. Joni, well, it doesn't feel that way, but thank you. It's good to know at least people are talking
about it. But we'll, you know, we'll keep pushing. Yeah, I think education and people being aware of what, what really happens is, is a big thing. I think if they know that, they're, you know, if they had a choice at a grocery store to buy nutrient dense flour or any any food, carrots versus something that's mass produced on a farm that full of pesticides and chemicals that they're going to go with, the more healthy one, it just feels like the flavor is better too. Absolutely,
absolutely, yeah, the flavor is better. So, you know, we'll keep working, but boy, you know, we sure have a long ways to go. But I love talking to farmers like you and Douglas and many of the others that are in this bio farming and farm smart group. It's really incredible, because you guys are proving that it can be done. And, you know, I've often sat down with Ty and and I'm like, gosh, we need to, like, get some updated numbers so we can say, hey, as a cohort, this many 10s of 1000s, well
potentially over 100,000 150,000 acres. Do you include bio
farming, farm smart like the whole group. You know that you guys as a group have reduced use of chemicals by x like those are like some really influential statistics, especially when you start thinking about runoff into the Columbia effects on downstream communities, like effects on our health, of course, but building soil, I mean, it's really cool to look at building soil per acre, but when you look at building soil per 100,000 acres, like suddenly it's, it's a really provocative argument.
It is, it is a little bit discouraging as a producer, when we are, you know, doing these practices, and then we just get our wheat mixed in with everybody else's Exactly, yep, off to the local silo. But as is Deanna Lewinsky says she's like, well, at least we're adding some valuable nutrition to the pool. Well, she's a commodities, I know, and I'm always like, Tiana, that just crushes me to hear that like,
but yes, you're. Right? However, I would love to see, and what I'm working on now, as you know, is, you know, really trying to find bigger markets where we have at scale purchasers that want to make a commitment to supporting an at scale regenerative program across the region, like you guys and and say, let's, let's do this. Let's commit to buying this wheat. Let's commit to buying this sorghum. Let's actually move the
needle. And let's, let's become part of the story of regeneration, instead of an outside participant, which for too long, I think a lot of the market kind of feels like it's an outside participant, not realizing that they're actually driving the manifestation of what happens at the field level. They just don't think that they do. It's a radical disconnect.
So if we can mend that connection, and we can really empower the purchasers to realize that they are actually, you know, contributing to the destiny at the field level, that's a really powerful position, and they need to step it up and make sure that they're contributing. To what needs to happen, so that we're repairing soil and and growing better food. So Well, it'd be interesting to see with the new Trump administration, with RFK
in there, because he's touting, yeah, doing things like this. So it'll be interesting to see if there's anything to it. Yeah, exactly. We're it's kind of a watch and wait. I think right now everybody's like waiting to see what happens with this incoming cabinet and all of these folks in positions that will influence policy, and that's a whole nother
conversation for another day. But you know, when we do need to get policy and insurance and everything also aligned with regenerating our soil, and that's another big barrier that we'll have to solve that on the next podcast, right? Aaron, yeah, and that is, that is one issue is the insurance, you know, our sorghum and not insurable. And so when we have here like this, where it freezes out and we get nothing out of it, that's a little discouraging. I mean, you get crop rotation and all that
kind of stuff. Yeah, at the same time, if I was plant wheat, I would have got some money on the deal. Well, that's the whole thing. We do need to, we've got to get some policy people behind adding these diverse crops to the insurance crop programs. Some farmers hate the idea. Other farmers love it. So I've not figured out exactly what the best approach is, but I don't want, I think it's something we've got to do. I don't
want to have to rely on crop insurance. But you know when, when commodity prices are depressed, like they are this year and have been, yeah, nice to get something out of it if it fails Absolutely. Yeah. Now I agree with you 100% so, Aaron, I hope that this
conversation, it will be insightful to people. I feel like we need to have more conversations with farmers like you that are just out there learning every season and trying to optimize and your farm and how many, how many total acres again, are you farming? Well, I farm about 4000 about but I'm down to about 1500 acres of actual farm ground that's not in program right now, yeah, yeah, the rest of it is in conservation programs, whether it be CRP or sage grouse habitat,
sure, sure. Well, it's been awesome. So thank you for taking time out of your day to join us and share your experiences with us, and for folks who want to maybe follow up if and ask you questions, like, how can people get a hold of you? Are you on social media somewhere where they can send you a message? Or what's, what's the best way to get in touch with you? Oh, anyway, Joan, you can get people my phone number. I'm on social media under O and V Brock, under Facebook.
Yeah, okay, whatever. They can always message messenger you that way, or, or I've given you permission to. Okay, cool. Yeah. Listeners, if anybody wants to reach out and talk to Owen, I am happy to pass along his information so you guys can swap notes and continue to learn every season, and eventually, we're going to make this regenerative thing the new norm so our kids have better food and a better environment. So thanks for sure. Yeah,
absolutely. So you know, if you're if you're out there listening and you enjoyed this session, please take a minute to share it with your friends. Share it with your community. Definitely leave a review if you're on the Apple I on the Apple podcasting app allows you to leave reviews, and let's just continue doing this great work and supporting the farmers that are leading the charge, and thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Johnny for all your work. Yeah, you're welcome.
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