Robert Wone - Forensics, Fetishes and Fluids: Part Two | #425

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I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. And welcome back to part two of the murder of Robert I. Lots of stuff going on today, so I hope you've all had your creatine. You're ready to go. Why would I have that? Oh, I have it. Why? Apparently, it makes you more mentally agile. And it's good to prevent mental decline. Helps build cognitive function. It's too late for me. And it's good for... Save yourself. And it's a good like...

post-gym thing like obviously i don't need protein shakes and actually they're really bad for you but creatine is good for like uh supporting your muscles basically which as women we should do more of especially if you're gonna be like maybe i'll try have a baby

Apparently. So I've been having creatine. It's fine. One little scoop. Put it in you. Put it in your drink. Chug it back. It's all good. I do feel sharper, but I don't know if it's a placebo. Do you know what else is good for that? Speed. I mean, quite. So yes, whether you've got your speed, whether you've got your creatine, whatever you've got, let's get into it. And we're going to start this week with the autopsy. Thank God. Okay. It was carried out on the 3rd of August, 2006.

by an experienced medical examiner with a name I had to practice multiple a time, Dr. Lois Goslenowski. Ooh. S-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s plosive mouth, as I've been told. And yes, this autopsy is very, very, very strange. Dr. Goslinowski found that Robert had been stabbed three times, twice in the chest and once in the abdomen.

with the knife piercing him in the heart, the right lung and the pancreas. And these stab wounds, she describes them as slit-like. So basically saying that they're very clean, very precise incisions. And... There are no hesitation marks. It's important to note that this wasn't like a frenzied attack, right? It was calm, clean, almost in my opinion. Like...

The person who did it knew that Robert wouldn't fight back. Does that sound like an intruder? Probs not. No. Now one of the wounds to Robert's chest was about seven to eight inches long. And the other two were 16 inches long. But they were all pretty much the same depth at about 4 or 5 inches deep. Now we are going to come back to the positioning of these wounds later. Because I really think...

that the positioning of the wounds is a very, very important part of this case that I have barely seen spoken about anywhere else. I'm not saying we figured this out. There are people talking about this. And if you read the autopsy report, it is there in black and white. They don't even mention it in the documentary. And it blew my mind when I read the autopsy report because I was like, how did they just completely skirt over that?

But we won't. So stay tuned. First, though, we're going to talk about the zero defensive wounds that Robert had on his body. Not a single saucisse. There was also... No blood whatsoever on his hands. Which, given that he was stabbed three times, is remarkable. Even if he'd been asleep, the first stabbing would have woken him up.

He would have fought back, grabbed at the knife, got slashes on his hands and his arms. And even if the first stab wound was the one that punctured his aorta, likely leading to a quick death, we're still talking a few seconds. Plenty of time for Robert's hand to come into contact with some blood that's coming out of the highest pressure vessel in your body. But there's nothing.

Whoever did this may have washed the blood off Robert's hands to get rid of evidence, although it does seem unlikely when we get on to what else they found on and in Robert's body. But the wounds still show us definitively that Robert didn't move during the attack. So what happened? Well...

There were no ligature marks found to Robert's body to indicate that he was tied down. So that leaves us with only three real possibilities. Robert wanted to be stabbed. which I can barely say with a straight face, two, he was incapacitated when he was stabbed, or three, he was already dead when he was stabbed. The first one, which as I said, I don't buy at all, but let's go with it. is that this was some sort of extreme BDSM, I want you to stab me, eunuch maker level of madness gone wrong.

Like Robert consented to being cut but whoever did it took it too far and Robert ended up dead. The classic sex game gone wrong scenario. But even if you were like, yeah, stab me, I... love it your body is going to move no matter how into it you are your body is gonna be like what the fuck i i just don't imagine a way in which

it's plausible that somebody could have that level of control over themselves. Even in The Unit Maker, we saw the minute it starts happening, a lot of people were like, no, I don't even want this to happen anymore. And the wounds indicate that Robert's body never moved.

or resisted the three stab wounds. And also, for this to be the case, right, that Robert wanted it to happen, this situation would also mean that happily married Robert was not only secretly gay, but also... massively into pretty extreme sexual fetishes and only at the house that night for some sort of sexy hookup which is a big talking point around this case which we will come on to obviously and we will discuss

but personally it's not one that rings true. And that's because the police dug into every corner of Robert's life after he was killed. They had his phones, his laptop, his computer, his bank statements, literally everything, and they never found a hint of Robert leading a secret gay double life. Certainly not a kinktastic one.

If he was married to his wife, Kathy, as a cover-up, you'd at least expect some gay porn to be kicking about. But that was nothing. So many people on Reddit talk about this case and they're like, it was a gay Audrey. Gay orgy went wrong. They stabbed him. Something happened. Drug overdose. They stabbed him to cover it up. Blah, blah, blah. We're going to get into all that. But like the fact that if you die under these circumstances, the police are going to take your life apart and they find...

Nothing. And Robert didn't know he was going to die. Why would he cover it up? And even if you cover it up, the police will find it. There's nothing. I just think it's too big a leap. Of course people lead secret gay double lives. But I just don't think Robert was one of them. I agree. Like, I think, you know, these things do happen. Of course, everything happens. Everything you can imagine happens. But like, I just don't believe. Where's the evidence?

There would be something. Yeah. Whatever happened to Robert, I don't think he consented to it. And even if we ignore the could he have been secretly gay or bi or whatever or not question, look at his behaviour right before he was killed. He went to his room. He showered. He put his mouth guard in and then wrote a couple of emails. The mouth guard is the killer for me. Me too. That was my turning point. I was like, all right, you got me. I absolutely not.

No gay porn and the mouth guard. I'm sorry. This was not that for Robert. Yes. Yes. He's there because he's like, you know, I've left my wife Kathy for the night. I've come here because I need this. I'll just put my mouth guard in and let me send a couple of quick emails.

Fuck off. It's just illogical. Yeah. And look, before everybody's like, I have sex with my mouth garden. Maybe if you're in a relationship and it's like, you know, 10 years down the line and you're like, just roll over and have a quick. It's a bit different to going over. for a secret, sordid affair that you're having. Surely, right? So it just doesn't. It's a non-starter for me, to be honest with you. And people do illogical things all the time. Yes. We know that.

I'd be worried if we didn't after doing this for 100,000 decades. But like, I just don't buy it. And as for the sleepover itself, because this is what makes a lot of people question Robert's sexuality. And I find it funny because...

A lot of people are like, well, what was he doing at that house with those gay men? He must have been having a sex orgy. And I'm like, no, he's just friends with them. Yeah, that's like allowed. He's just friends. He's just a straight man who happens to be friends with these gay men. like shocking i mean yes the fact that he's murdered and there is a sexual element to it i understand why then people are questioning his sexuality but i really don't think that's at the heart of this

So why was Robert there? Let's talk about that because this is a big point of contention in this case. Well, a couple of weeks before his death, Robert realized that he was going to need to work late. to meet with the night team of Radio Free Asia on the evening of the 2nd of August 2006. So, he decided to reach out to a couple of friends in DC to see if he could spend the night. Because Robert, who used to live in DC,

had moved to Virginia to a place called Oakton, which I believe is like a suburb. And it's not miles and miles away. It's like a commuter. It's like commutable into DC. But he basically messaged a couple of friends saying, hey, I've got to work late that night. Can I sleep over? And Joe was just the first person who got back to him. In a lot of places, Robert staying over at 1509 Swan Street is either painted.

as this hugely planned out wednesday night sex fest or as a spur of the moment idea like he just picked up the phone at 10 and was like hey joe can i come over right neither of those things i think are true i know that the Spur of the moment thing is definitely not true. I also don't believe it was a sex fest. And it also wasn't a secret. Robert's wife, Kathy, actually reminded him that morning that he was going to stay at Joe's that night.

Some people question why Robert bothered to stay in DC that night at all. He lived in Oakton, which is commutable, as Suri said. He could have made it home in about 40 minutes by train or taxi. That's... Reasonable. However, Kathy had just had a hip replacement. Robert was keen not to wake her up by coming home late or getting up early the next morning. Also, Joe and Robert were apparently...

planning a breakfast meeting the next day to discuss a potential joint business idea. So it just made sense for Robert to stay over. That's the only bit of this whole thing that makes sense. Yep. So we can set aside theory number one, I believe. But what about possibilities two and three, that Robert was somehow incapacitated or that he was already dead when he was stabbed? Now, if we go with Dr. Gozlanowski, according to her...

Robert was definitely not dead when he was stabbed. Dr. Goslinowski noted in her report that there was blood found in Robert's small intestine and that this blood, according to her, was partially digested. So she comes to the conclusion that Robert must have been alive for, quote, a significant amount of time after he was stabbed. So definitely not dead before.

But this, with regards specifically to the amount of time that Robert lived after the stab wounds were inflicted, has been heavily challenged by other medical examiners. Basically, the challenge that they make... is saying that the wounds that Robert sustained would have been fatal within minutes, if not seconds. And he definitely would have been unconscious within seconds. So while Robert may have been alive before he was stabbed,

There was no way, according to these other medical professionals, that he could have lived long enough for his body to digest anything. And while we don't know the order in which the wounds were inflicted, like whether the aortic injury was first or last,

We can say that the stab wounds happened in close succession. And the fact that the aortic injury happened at all means he would have been dead within minutes. So his body couldn't have been long enough for him to digest anything. So Dr. Goslinowski must be wrong. He didn't live long enough for that to be possible. And the counterclaim is that the stab wound to Robert's abdomen pierced his small intestine. And basically, there's internal bleeding into his small intestine.

And that's what Dr. Gozlanowski looks at and says there's blood in his small intestine that's been partially digested. Basically, they're saying that the blood hadn't traveled down through Robert's mouth, through his digestive tract and ended up in his small intestine. which is how Dr. Goslinowski states it. Because yes, for that to occur, it would have indeed taken a long time for Robert to still be alive for that to happen. But there's literally no way he could have been alive for the, like...

upwards of 40 minutes to maybe an hour that would have taken to occur because we know he had an aortic injury. So there's something wrong in Dr. Goslinowski's report. So if we... take the challenge to Dr. Gozlanowski's findings seriously, then Robert could have been dead or alive when he was stabbed. We can't be sure either way because the reason she says she's sure he was alive...

is because she says there was partially digested blood. But other medical examiners saying that's not true because it's impossible. So then we're back at the position where we don't know for sure if Robert was dead or alive when he was stabbed.

But you'd like to think that a doctor would know the difference between internal bleeding and partially digested. I really don't know how she makes that mistake. But the facts for me are, I would always lean towards the medical examiner who actually did the autopsy.

But the fact for me that is irrefutable is yes, Robert did have an aortic injury. So we know that that kills within minutes and you can't be digesting blood within minutes. And she's saying there was two foot of small intestine that was filled with blood.

So it's not like he got punched in the face, which also there's no evidence of because he has no facial injuries, or somehow swallowed some blood that was digested and then she's later confusing it with this. Two foot of small intestine being filled with blood, that's a lot of blood.

I don't understand why she can't tell if it's partially digested or not. But the fact that he has the aortic injury makes me believe he died within minutes, which is not long enough for blood to have got to the small intestine and become partially digested. It is confusing, but I think the aortic injury is the thing that's like clinches it for me. So then if we say we can't be sure if Robert was dead or alive, let's go with the idea for now.

that he was dead, right? Let's go with the idea that Robert was already dead when he was stabbed and that's why he doesn't resist the stabs. That's why there are no defensive wounds. That's why there's no reaction. Then what killed him? Well that isn't clear. There is some suggestion in the autopsy and I really don't want to overblow this because a lot of people have overblown this. There is some suggestion in the autopsy of possible suffocation.

gozlanoski found some particular hemorrhaging in robert's eyes and a lot of people have run away with that saying well it's simple they suffocated him He was either dead or nearly dead and then they stabbed him and that's why there isn't a lot of blood at the scene because his heart rate had either stopped or really, really slowed down. My issue with the petechial hemorrhaging is that it is such a tiny amount. I've got one now.

She literally says it's a singular point of particular hemorrhage. It's not really the amount you would expect to see if someone had been suffocated. And also, in cases where people are suffocated, they fight back. And you typically will find some form of bruising to the face if they were alive when that happens. There's nothing like that on Robert. And there's no fibers in his nose, in his airways. Again, things you would expect to find if suffocation had taken place.

So that takes us back to the question, why didn't Robert move? According to the police, he was paralysed. In the official affidavit... investigators stated that they believed a paralytic agent had been used on him. The problem is that toxicology reports found no evidence of any nefarious substances in Robert's blood or urine, not even alcohol. Again.

A sober gay orgy. There are problems there. Firstly, they didn't actually test for paralytics. Ketamine wasn't even tested for. Yeah, and I have heard, I can't confirm this, but I have heard that... Dylan Ward's username on some BDSM websites was calluket. Mm-hmm. Want to give your loved ones the presents that they'll really treasure this festive season? You should check out Quince.

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And they didn't do it as a standard search. But police aren't deterred by the fact that they find none of these things in Robert's body. They point to another finding from the autopsy to back up their paralytic theory. Robert had multiple puncture marks to his body, like needle puncture marks. And he was not an intravenous drug user. There were two to his chest, one on the left-hand side of his neck, one on the inside of his arm.

one on the back of his left hand and one on the front of his right ankle. Some of these puncture marks we know were caused by the paramedics who were trying to carry out life-saving... procedures on robert in the ambulance or robert's body probably by that point they were trying to place ivs in him they were trying to give him injections and they said we tried in multiple different spots

But a couple of the marks were in places that the EMT workers denied interfering with. And yeah, look, the puncture mark to his ankle definitely seems very odd. But I can also imagine a situation in which you're working on a patient in a moving ambulance. Things might be a bit crazy. Can they say for sure, yes, some of these puncture marks were definitely us? And maybe one or two were definitely one and were the work of some mystery killer. I don't know. Does it make sense?

All we know is that Robert had to either be dead because Dr. Gozlinowski might be wrong about the digested blood or Robert had to be paralysed or incapacitated. And these options would also explain the lack of blood at the scene. If Robert's heart had totally stopped pumping, or its beating was severely reduced due to a drug or him being unconscious from suffocation, there may not be... cast off or spray or even excessive bleeding. They are the only options that fit the strangeness of the scene.

The fact that Robert doesn't resist the stabbing and the fact that there is so little blood at the scene. Both of these can only be explained as you said, either he's dead or he's incapacitated and or paralyzed or suffocated. But since we can't explain how Robert could have been killed and then stabbed, because suffocation seems hard to nail down with a tiny amount of petechial hemorrhaging reported, and no other cause of death seems that obvious.

Let's go with the police's theory about a paralytic. Are you happy to do that? Because I can't think of another way in which he was killed and there's no cause of death. So we have to then, I feel like, set aside the idea that Robert was dead before he was stabbed. Because there's nothing in the report.

that could explain how else he could have died. So then for me, logically, okay, then we have to look at the idea. Although I don't love it that he was drugged or paralyzed or incapacitated in some other way. Or maybe there's just something that's completely been missed as to his cause of death. But I can't think of what it could be. Yeah, me either.

Some people have wondered if Robert could have been drugged orally when he first arrived at the house. We know that he had a glass of water. Was there something in it? Perhaps. Maybe. But whoever did it would have had to know exactly when that drug was going to kick in. And Robert seems to have been fine, showering, putting his mouth guard in, writing his emails. Doesn't really sound like someone who's been roofied.

No, and he's not down there that long. No, and this is exactly the point. Yes, they did all go to bed shortly after Robert got there. He has the drink that may have been spiked. I don't buy it. But Robert could easily have ended up staying up chatting. So whoever did it, how would they know that he was going to go to bed and it would kick in when he was in his bedroom and then you could go in there and do all sorts of things to him?

What if it had kicked in when he was downstairs and he passes out in front of everybody? To take that kind of risk, you would suggest then that they were all in on it and a public collapse would have been fine. Yes. I don't totally, like, think it's impossible. I don't think it's impossible. I personally don't think Victor was involved. But again, we'll go on to talk about that. But that's my issue with the like oral drugging is that the person who did it.

would have had to have been safe in the knowledge that either Robert was definitely going to go to bed immediately or that it didn't matter if anybody else saw him pass out. But why wouldn't it matter? For me, I don't really see... I don't see what difference it would make to the killer whether Robert passed out in his room or downstairs and then is then transferred back upstairs. For me, it's just if Victor's not in on any plot and then Robert...

is still talking to Victor. Victor comes downstairs and they're having a chat because they are friends, despite all the casual friend thing. And then Robert suddenly passes out. Victor's going to be like, oh my God, we need to call an ambulance. Our friend Robert, who's staying over, has just collapsed.

And then your whole plan of whatever you're going to do to Robert has gone out the window. So either they're all in on it, which is the only way that would make sense that Robert was drugged orally. or drugged like when he had that drink of water which is a big like talking point in this but if you even suspect that one of them isn't in on it it's a big risk for me to take that you're roofing somebody downstairs when you don't know for sure that Robert's going to go to bed

I see what you're saying. I just, I think that I don't believe that Dylan and or Joe are scared of Victor at all. No, that's very true. I think that's...

Fine. I think for me, then you look at the evidence of Robert does go to bed and he goes to bed at 1045 or he goes to his room at 1045. He showers, he brushes his teeth, he gets changed, he puts his mouth guard in, he sits down and he writes emails. That's like... between the going to bed and the or going to his room and the last email draft is about 25 minutes and I'm like how long does it take and there's no like

you know maybe this could have been staged but there's no like him stumbling over in his room because he's been roofied like he's just in bed so yes i appreciate there's a lot of things we don't know but The fact that he seems cognizant enough to write emails 25 minutes after being roofied, allegedly, is what makes me think he wasn't slip something in that drink. I could buy it. It's not an impossibility. No, I don't think so. And there is also an argument.

of it's possible that there was a lot of knowledge in that house of how long it takes someone to get knocked out quite possibly what I'm going to take my role is as like pointing holes in everything to be like What is the thing that makes the most sense? And I don't think that the oral drugging is impossible. These are just my issues with it that then it implies everyone's involved. Or like you said, they literally don't give a shit what Victor thinks.

And they're willing to do this out in the open completely. And also, how is he so cognizant nearly half an hour after being allegedly roofied? Those would be my two like question marks about that particular thing. So, yes.

It could have been an absolute possibility, but I don't know. And the other thing with the drugging, if we say the most likely drug they would have used, because they actually run a test on some things like... ghb and is not found in his system and if it had been something like rohypnol authorities did test for that and didn't find it it's actually one of the few drugs that

can still be tested in your system for five days after it's administered. That's why GHB is used a lot more. Exactly. And I think that's why they went back and tested for it. So, of course, it could have been some other drug that they've put into his drink. But the fact that they don't find rohypnol or GHP is another thing for me that leads away from the oral drugging. Because it's not so easily accessible, but it's a common thing that's used in these scenarios, right?

So, yeah, that's probably the key thing as to why I don't think it was that. So then the other thing is they don't find any Rohypno in the house, but they also don't find any needles or other paralytics or any type of weird nefarious agent in the house either.

Regardless, investigators landed on succinylcholine as their suspected paralytic. Now, it's not entirely obvious to me how they got to this particular chemical. drug being the thing that was used but that was the theory and again succinylcholine is a drug that gets very very quickly metabolized in the body into naturally occurring compounds so Unless you're testing for it literally immediately, it's very hard to test for. And there's some dispute over how easy it is to get your hands on.

It's not used that much these days, but there are reports from the time that you could just have gone into any hospital and grabbed it off a drug cart. But a lot of medical professionals say that that's total shit. And considering how powerful a drug is and how specific its usage is, I tend to believe them. It's essentially used to immobilise a person. But it's... only given to people on ventilators because your body can't even breathe for itself after it's administered.

So that could explain why Robert didn't respond to the stab wounds if he was given succinylcholine. He may have become completely unresponsive and started to suffocate as his lungs stopped. It also can't be administered orally.

And it kicks in within 60 seconds. So there's no chance that it was given to Robert before. Yeah. So if it was succinylcholine, again, there's no evidence of that. Like I said, it's within a minute it's working and you're... you know you're gone so it's got to have been done in his room or you know some people like he was killed elsewhere there's like a million different places you can go with this but it had to be done right before is what i'm saying so yeah

Because I've been on Reddit, I've seen lots of nurses and doctors being like, absolute bullshit. People saying you can just go in and grab it off a drug cart. Like, it's only used in the ICU for people who are on ventilators. It's not just like in common. Like, it's not like fucking...

paracetamol or even like a hardcore painkiller which might be found more easily in a hospital. So if they didn't steal it from a hospital how else could these guys have got their hands on it or the killer got their hands on it? Enter the next theory. The killer was Joe's brother, Michael, the one that we briefly mentioned last week as having had a key to the house. Michael is described as the black sheep of the family.

Joe is very clean cut. He's a successful lawyer. He's got his shit together on the outside anyway. This is in sharp contrast to his brother Michael, who had always struggled with drug addiction. And he was now supposedly at this point, so in 2006, supposedly sorting his life out. He had enrolled in night school to study to become a phlebotomist. And so the theory was this is how he had got hold of the succinyl coli.

But it feels like a bit of a stretch to me. Phlebotomists don't even use succinylcholine as part of their role. Like it's not specific to them. Like he's just... Sometimes in a hospital because he's training to be a phlebotomist. I'm not convinced I know what that word means. Oh, it's like the people that draw blood. That has a name. Crazy. Yeah.

I'm sure they do lots more things before everyone is a phlebotomist is like, that's not all we do. But it's blood, right? Blood stuff. Okay. Now, regardless, the theory is, this is the theory the police had, that Michael fell off the wagon. and broke into his rich brother's house to steal some stuff for drug money. Like in The Haunting of Hill House. Exactly. But instead... Also in DC, that scene, I believe. I think DC is pretty druggy. I'm not going to say anything.

I'm protecting my peace. Yeah, I think the people of D.C. know, unfortunately. So the theory is that he broke into Joe's house to steal some stuff to sell for drugs. But instead of, you know, just breaking into... the house and then stealing all the very expensive tech equipment that is on the first floor of the house. For some reason, he grabs a knife, goes upstairs and murders the house guest.

And the theory is that Joe knew it was Michael who did it. And obviously Michael is his brother. And that's why he covered it up with this bullshit intruder theory. And Michael did, in fact, break into Joe's house a few weeks. after the murder. And he had probably done it before, but the main evidence to support this theory seems to be that Michael missed his phlebotomy class the night of the murder.

And it was the only night all year that he hadn't turned up, which is notable, a coincidence, but, you know, hardly a smoking gun. Especially when you consider that there's no evidence putting him at the scene at all. In fact, his phone was tracked and placed him nowhere near 1509 Swan Street that night. He could have just left it behind, but his partner also vouched for him that night.

Some point to the fact that Michael had an angry outburst at the police at Robert's funeral, screaming at them that they should be out there looking for the real killers instead of harassing his brother. Though I don't really understand how that makes him look guilty. I think they're just like, oh, he has an anger problem. I'm like, okay. Yeah, I don't, I'm not running with the Michael theory, to be honest. I think at best he was used by police.

to say that they looked at the possibility of other culprits, and as a way to try and explain, paralytic connection, but again, there's no hard evidence that Robert was drugged, certainly not with something. Like succinylcholine. Yeah, it's funny. When you watch the documentary, Joe Price's lawyer is in it quite a lot, a man named Bernard Grimm.

who has since been disbarred, by the way, in the documentary. He's very, very expensive, like top shot lawyer, obviously, that Joe Price got for himself. But in it, it's so funny because he's like, the police have looked at nobody but these three men.

They have looked at nobody. They've disregarded the intruder theory completely. They've been completely blinkered from the start. And then when it's put to them about the Michael theory, and that's why Joe covers it up, he's like, oh, well, who is it now? Who else did it now? I'm like, so which is it?

Is it that you're like, they're just pointing the finger at everybody or that they're only pointing the finger at Joe? It's just the twisting. It's something. It's something else, honestly. And it worked. Yeah. So, yes. no evidence it was michael no evidence that it was succinylcholine though of course as we said succinylcholine is very very very hard to test for if it's not done immediately so of course the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence

And as we mentioned, if he had been drugged with something like that, it would explain the total lack of blood at the scene. But I know that not everyone buys.

that there is a lack of blood at the scene because Robert was either dead or incapacitated. Many people believe in this case that there was a huge cleanup at the scene. And I think this is due in large part to the police's massive fuck up here with a chemical called Ashley's Reagent. I also accept that it's because...

There was a man who stabbed three times and there's no blood at the scene, which immediately obviously makes people suspicious. But this whole controversy with this chemical makes things 10 times worse. But I really don't think it's as important as it's made out to be. Hear me out. The police basically mess up catastrophically because they use this thing called Ashley's Reagent to test for blood at the house. But it isn't the right chemical to use when testing for blood in cases like this.

I really try to understand, like, obviously we've all heard of luminol. Luminol is the right chemical to use. Why on fucking fuck they used Ashley's reagent, I do not know. I do not understand why they did this. The best I can understand, and I have listened to a lot of experts talk about this, I've read a lot of things about this, the best I can understand is that it seems that luminol is the best thing to use on hard surfaces.

And Ashley's reagent is good to use on fabrics. That's the best I can understand. But why they sprayed Ashley's reagent around that whole fucking house, I don't know, right? And listening to experts talk about it. They also say that Ashley's reagent is just not very good. It can give false positives. It can give false negatives. It can even, in some cases, destroy blood evidence altogether. So I don't know what the fuck went on here.

And in the documentary, they really just skirt over this thing. They're just like blah, blah, blah. And like... They just say that Ashley's reagent shouldn't be used on vertical surfaces and that was the biggest mistake they made. I was like, okay, let's look into that. Still not totally clear, but essentially, this is why I don't think it's that important, right?

Yes, they did fuck up with using Ashley's reagent. But essentially what we need to know is that the police had the house for almost three weeks, right? And they would have tried various methods to detect blood. They didn't just go in there and start spraying Ashley's reagent immediately. There are various different ways in which you detect blood, working up to their use of Ashley's reagent. And yet they found no signs of blood.

anywhere at all on that property not one single bit they even brought in cadaver dogs and these two dogs did strike in two places the lint drawer of the dryer, like the tumble dryer, and also by the drains in the back garden. So maybe there were things that were washed or rinsed. I can totally buy that.

Because I definitely believe that someone in the house did it. I'm not saying they didn't clean anything. But I don't think there was this massive cleanup. Think about it. In the time that they had. Robert's sending fucking emails at 1107. They call 911. And then the ambulance is there. The paramedics are there before midnight. There is not a huge amount of time to clean that amount of blood that would be there.

If Robert had bled as extensively as you would expect someone who'd been stabbed three times, who was alive and unparalyzed at the time of being stabbed, to that level of cleanliness that the police found no evidence of blood? When the police also didn't find any cleaning products that would have done that kind of a job at the house.

Actually, it doesn't make sense. Blood gets everywhere. Yeah, I don't buy it. But I do really want to know what washing machine they have that's doing it that fast. I mean... Wash out or dry and find 20 minutes. Are you fucking joking? Exactly. Sign me up. Exactly. I'm just like...

If they were going to embark on this massive cleanup, why not just wait till morning? Why not just wait till morning? Clean it all. Even then, you're not going to clean it all. You're going to get caught. There's going to be blood. in the bloody floorboards or somewhere in the house. It's going to be somewhere. There is just no way. And I think the police want there to have been a clean up.

because then and we'll go on to see why because it speaks to there being a conspiracy within the house to cover up the murder so for the police they are fully incentivized to say there was a cleanup and so they blame the ashley's reagent for why they didn't find any blood

But that's not the only way you would find blood. They would have found something and they found nothing. And also, let's say that some people listening to this don't buy the theory that they would have found some blood. Maybe you're like, the police are just so incompetent they didn't find any blood.

Then my next question would be, why bother? Why would the men bother doing a cleanup? Yes, clean yourself, because you're probably covered in blood if you just stabbed a man three times and he's bled everywhere. But if your cover story was that somebody broke into the house and stabbed Robert to death while he was asleep, why would you, as is alleged, wash all the sheets, clean all the cast off, clean all the blood spray away and clean all the blood off the floor?

why that's what you would expect to see in fact the lack of that blood only raises more questions so what would be the possible motive for them to clean up the room or clean up the scene of blood and cast off and spray and all sorts of things if their whole point is that somebody broken and did this because obviously that person didn't fucking do it the only thing i can think is like

a change of plan or in my opinion victor being like no fuck you i'm calling the ambulance i'm not going down with this i'm not going down with you what you're doing is abhorrent and then the cleanups already happened and then he makes the call yeah

And then they have to come up with a different story and they had a different plan. Well, that is, I don't know. But even that. No. Reaching. Because the change of plan would still be somebody else came in and did it. And then it'd be like, well, where's the blood?

And I think for me, it's still the thing of even if they had done the cleanup for whatever reason, they're confused. They think, oh, we've got to clean it up. And then they're like, now it doesn't make sense because we're going to say somebody broke it and did it. But it's too late. They've already cleaned it. Again, it's the question of they didn't find any.

like bloody mops they don't find any buckets they don't find and like you can't just do it with regular cleaning products oh no i agree no no i know i'm i'm just literally being like let's tear this apart before you know because i know this is a big talking point in this case everyone's like oh it's a cleaner Where's the blood? There's got to be a clean up. I'm like, firstly, how? And secondly, why? Yeah. So yeah, I just, I don't buy it. I don't think there was a clean up.

And I think it comes back to the fact that Robert is either dead or incapacitated and his heart rate is so slow that the blood just doesn't leave his body. Everyone knows that the best. holiday outfits, the one you think about for the rest of your life. That one starts with the right foundations. So why spend the season tugging at digging in bras or shapewear that rolls down or up or in?

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There are also accusations that the men were having a big orgy in a baby pool or a tarpaulin, something like that. In my limited experience. Our knowledge of gay orgies is quite common. Yes, I've heard this. I've read a lot about it. Lots of lube going on. Lots of buckets full of things. It is reasonably common for it to happen in some sort of Dexter-like plastic-covered environment. Because there's a lot of fluid.

this is what i've read yeah me too and so therefore when robert was stabbed this is what got filled with his blood so he just got washed off and then the uh happy roommates all washed themselves and then they dumped the pool or the tarpaulin or the plastic or whatever but there's still no evidence of that and where could they have dumped this bloody paddling pool

The police searched all of the nearby bins and all of the alleys and there was nothing. And it also wouldn't explain why there was no cast off or spray on the walls or the ceiling. And again, just so little time. 30 minutes for an orgy, a murder, a clean-up, and an evidence dump. Seems impossible. Yeah, because this thing, people can be like, oh, well, the police didn't find the baby pool, but that's because they're incompetent. Okay, fine.

But I'm like, really, 30 minutes for all that to have happened? Yeah. Where are they dumping it? It just doesn't fit for me. It doesn't fit. Ultimately, I think Robert...

as I keep saying, was either already dead or his heart rate had slowed right down before he was stabbed. And maybe the killer or killers even thought that Robert was already dead when they stabbed him, which is why they do it so like... carefully and precisely with knowing that he's not going to fight back the question then i understand would be well then why bother stabbing him well the obvious one to me is that

They knew if Robert wasn't quite dead, but they knew he was going to die, or they were scared about him waking up, that he'd wake up and tell everybody what they had done, or what one of them had done, or what two of them had done. But I also think that they have to stab him. Because if they're going to say that somebody broke in and murdered him, we can say somebody broke in and suffocated him or broke in and gave him a paralytic that made him die. Someone broke in and stabbed him. Just.

makes more sense as a narrative even though it makes no sense at all in this case yeah so maybe if it was joe dylan and or victor they do something to robert he is unconscious or otherwise incapacitated or something is wrong with him and maybe they even think he's dead. I figured they thought it would make more sense that someone broke in and stabbed their housekeeper to death than did something else to him.

Now, some people ask, well, if they did that, why then not stage the house to look more like there had been an actual break in? Right. Why not throw some things around, make it look like a struggle? I've seen that like comment made a lot on the Internet.

and to me i was like yeah you're right why wouldn't they do that joe's a smart man why wouldn't he make it look more like it was a struggle but actually when you think about it it's actually super smart that they didn't do this because if there was a mess in the house It creates a much longer time frame for the killer to have been in the house. And more questions about why the men didn't see or hear anything. And also, if they staged a struggle.

Then they would have to explain why they didn't hear anything or come running sooner. Not to mention the bigger risks they'd have to take in staging Robert's body in a manner that would have created more inconsistencies. Because you can't say somebody came and threw a bunch of shit around, made a load of noise, but Robert was still in bed and then he got stabbed because people are going to get up and be like, what's that noise? And then if you're saying he wasn't stabbed in bed.

then where are you going to position his body? There's going to be more chances for something weird to be picked up upon. So I actually think it's quite smart that they didn't stage more of a... a ruckus yeah but of course it doesn't make sense because then what you're saying is that this random intruder jumped over a bunch of fences got into your garden seven foot fences got into your garden just so happened to find an unlocked door open said unlocked door here's

the chime go off it's not even that late uh like just gone 11 but has no fear isn't deterred by the fact that a chime has gone off they ignore all of this expensive tech that's downstairs because the men you know they're well off they've got a lot of good stuff in the house

But instead goes to the kitchen, grabs a knife and heads upstairs, doesn't even go into the first bedroom they come across, which would have been Dylan's. They go up the stairs, turn the corner, 180 on the hallway, walk into the second bedroom that they would have come across.

And randomly just stab the person in there to death. And then just quietly walk out of the house and leave. And also what's really interesting, and we will get on to the positioning of the knife, but this is worth mentioning now. The door to Robert's room, right? They go into Robert's room, but the positioning of the wounds shows that they couldn't have stabbed Robert from the side of the bed that is next to the door. So they couldn't just walk in through the door.

Stab him and then walk back out. The way the wounds are positioned means this person walked into the room, walked all the way around the bed to the other side, cornering themselves in that room, and then stabbed Robert. If we assume he wasn't moved. If we assume he wasn't moved and also if we assume that that even fits with the wounds, which it doesn't totally, which I'll come on to in a bit. But again, you see what I mean? It just doesn't make sense.

I mean, I'm confused now and I'm not running through a house trying to murder someone. I'm just trying to understand. So I don't think I can give the intruder theory anything. And the police couldn't either.

especially when they found all of the very extreme BDSM stuff in Dylan's room in the days after the murder. They became convinced that this was all sexually motivated. And some people accuse the investigators of being homophobic or prejudiced against the men for being into kinky sex, whatever. Joe even says this during his interviews. Yeah, he's like, what, just because we like sex, we murdered him? And it's like, no, Joe. Yeah.

But like it's not like the police have to follow up on it. They can't just be like, OK, never mind. And like we're talking some serious, serious stuff that they find in Dylan's room. And also they find a lot of like stuff that is overtly like. Extremely violent. And they also found countless homemade pornographic videos on Joe's computers, including on his work computer. Which I just think shows how brazen he is. Yeah.

And these videos featured Joe and Dylan. They included everything from medieval torture to extreme humiliation porn. And of course you can say that it's just kink between two consenting adults. But when there's a murder in the house in which they live, you can't really trot that one out, to be honest. No. It is completely relevant. Nobody is saying.

That a interest in BDSM or kink automatically means you are a violent murderer. No one. So don't bother. But yes, the police had to follow this lead. And so the police got Dr. Goslinowski to go back and run a rape kit on Robert's body. And she found that there was no visible signs of forcible rape. So there's no trauma or tearing to Robert's anus or his mouth. She did find semen on Robert's genitals. And also inside his anal cavity. Which, in my opinion, also nullifies this clean-up story.

So what, you're going to wash all the blood off yourself, off the bedsheets, off the room, off the walls, but you're not going to wash Robert well enough to get the semen off his body? Yeah. So no. But anyway. When the police hear the news that there is semen inside Robert's body, they were like, bingo. Whoever semen that is has to be the killer.

In the case that just won't stop twisting and turning, when the results came back, it was something no one was expecting. Because the semen, on and inside Robert. was his own. Now the police were completely baffled. Robert wasn't raped, as far as they could see, insofar as like some form of penetration.

But he did, as far as they could also see from the autopsy results, ejaculate shortly before he died. Now, Joe's lawyer, Bernard Grimm, who we mentioned earlier, theorised that Robert must have just masturbated. And there's no sexual motivation at all to this crime.

Which, like, okay, but let's play that out, right? So Robert comes over to see it at his friend's house. He showers, puts his mouth guard in, writes him emails, and then suddenly, without even sending those emails, stops to masturbate. puts his own semen inside of himself, and then gets murdered by a mystery intruder, all completely unrelatedly. It's a no for me. Half of it I can see.

Honestly, men are gross. Like, I don't think there's like, I could absolutely believe that men wank at other people's houses. A hundred percent. Even the semen thing. I'm like, I don't know. Maybe it was a weird thing. I don't know. But just so happens to get murdered immediately after. I don't think I can stand behind that, to be honest. In a house full of other men. Come on. Like, be fucking for real. It's just ridiculous. And the police...

Went into an absolute tailspin. They were like, who's Occam's razor? What's that? We don't know how. They look for the most outlandish reasons to explain this. rather than in my opinion just keeping it simple. They desperately started to look for sex toys in the house that could explain how Robert could have been forced to ejaculate and then had his own semen put inside of him.

And they went off on the wild goose chase and came up with nothing. None of the sex toys that were in the house had Robert's DNA on them at all. It's quite baffling how they managed. to make this so convoluted but it does seem to be based on the idea that men ejaculate against their will which it's so bizarre

This documentary wasn't made 20 years ago, by the way, just before anybody thinks that. This documentary was made, like, recently. It's just a 20-year-old case. They've made it... Like, I don't believe that Robert was secretly bi or gay or whatever. But how complicated they've made this, I'm like, that makes more sense to me than all of this stuff. Yeah, because in the documentary, they literally say men can't ejaculate against that one. I'm like, what? Who wrote this? Who edited this?

prove this i had to go down a rabbit hole of like all the different ways in which i wanted to double and triple check that men can ejaculate men can ejaculate under general anesthetic men can ejaculate

When they're asleep, we all know that. When they get hanged. Yes, the idea that men don't ejaculate or can't physically ejaculate against their will is such a bizarre preposterous thing. But it truly leads them... on this bonkers thing where they're like looking at all these different like sex toys they're like talking about how there was this like electrical machine that Dylan had in his room that must have been clamped onto Robert and forced him to ejaculate

And like it was all part of this humiliation play. And look, I'm not saying that wasn't that wasn't what happened. But I'm saying is it could have also just wanked him off against his will. Just have a knife, coerce him and like.

The idea that it had to be some diabolical sex toy that did this. And also, a hand will put semen inside a person. You don't need a sex toy to do it. The police are genuinely... They are just not au fait with... anything and it's like they just go wild they go wild and i get it i guess it's like if they find one of the sex toys with this dna on is such conclusive evidence but they don't find that we've come across

investigations like this before where there's you know sex is involved and it just seems to like i've seen before investigators being like i actually have no idea about sex at all yeah i don't know how it works Don't ask me. No idea. That's what it feels like. It always does. They're always like, how could I possibly have any information on how this works? Yeah. I honestly, it's so baffling to watch this, like, to hear that line.

men can't ejaculate against their will or whatever they say i'm paraphrasing in the document job site that's what did it that's the immediate point at which instead of going down this route you just went mad And as for how Robert Seaman got inside himself, apparently, after death, when men's bodies decompose, semen can leak into different bits of themselves, but that's, like, major.

decomposition and robert's autopsy was carried out the day that he died seems very obvious the most likely explanation is that whoever did this forcibly made robert ejaculate probably with his hands And then try to use the resulting material as lubrication for anal sex that never completed, never happened.

And that makes the intruder theory even more preposterous, because now you would have to believe that Robert was sexually assaulted and stabbed without the three other men in the house knowing about it. Which doesn't really make sense with the timeline of their own story, given how close together the chime and the grunting slash scream and the final chime all supposedly occurred.

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So if anybody else needs any more convincing that this wasn't an intruder, I would like to talk about the positioning of the wounds. So when you read the autopsy report, you see that Basically, they describe all three wounds as being orientated at the 10 o'clock and 4 o'clock axes. I was like, what are they fucking talking about? But if you pull up a clock face...

This is going to help visualize it a little bit better. But essentially, if I'm Robert and I'm lying down, we're saying that the three wounds are going across my body from 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock. Everyone with me? And what you need to know is basically the four o'clock end, the bit that is inside, I guess, slanting downwards, is blunt. Whereas a ten o'clock wound, so the top of the wound, is sharp. So basically...

You're saying that they would have been holding the knife with the sharp edge facing outwards and the blunt edge facing inwards towards their arm and towards their wrist. That just seems like a very strange way to hold a knife. If you were stabbing somebody from above. Do you know when it's not weird? It's if somebody was stabbing you from behind. If somebody came behind Robert and stabbed him with their arm going across his chest.

this is the exact pattern you would expect to see so this to me again it's not a smoking gun on its own but once again makes it very unlikely that it was an intruder because it kind of makes it look like whoever did it was either in bed with Robert when they did it and they were stabbing him from behind or they stabbed him somewhere completely different. He was stabbed from behind and then they posed him in the bed. I don't know.

But I think that this positioning of the wounds seems very unlikely given the pattern of the knife marks that this person stabbed from above because they would be holding the knife in a very, very unusual way and stabbing at a very unusual angle. So, let's talk about the knife. Knife stuff. Yes. The knife that was either in Robert's chest or on top of his chest when Joe and Victor said that they found him. The knife in question...

was a knife from the kitchen of 1509 Swan Street. But is it the murder weapon? Police don't think so. Because the knife that was found was six inches long. But all three of the stab wounds to Robert were consistently four to five inches deep. And whilst you might get wounds that are deeper than the knife being used, for example, if someone's stabbing with more force or less.

It's quite hard to imagine how likely it is that someone would stab another person three times with a knife that's six inches long, but each time they don't put the whole thing in there. Yeah, this is... Yeah, like it's worth mentioning for sure. Not impossible, but you know, one or two inches short consistently is worth noting. Especially when one of the stab wounds, it does say in the autopsy, went through Robert's sternum.

which is obviously a very hard part of your body. And I guess in one way I could say that it's because it's so hard that maybe that's why you couldn't get the knife all the way through. But you've really got to push. And it's the fact that it is consistent in each of the wounds. Also, there wasn't any bruising found on Robert's body, which you would usually see when the heel of the stabber's hand comes into contact with the victim's body on impact.

The police were sure that the knife at the scene was a plant. But much like the clean-up, the question has to be, why bother? Thank you. so much is made about whether this is the real knife or not and i'm like yeah you can be like oh it's an inch or two out blah blah but i'm like why would you bother why would you bother fucking putting a fake fucking knife there like if the killer was really an intruder

who ran off with the knife that he had actually used in the commission of this murder. Well, obviously, he wouldn't plant a fake one, right? Because he's just an unknown mystery ninja. But even if it was one of the men in the house who did this, why would you bother going to the effort of getting rid of the real murder weapon to put a fake one in its place in that room?

Why wouldn't you just get rid of the murder weapon to make it look like the killer took it with him? I don't understand. Is the theory that they... got rid of the real murder weapon because it incriminated them in a way? Was it too obvious for them to clean that knife?

Like, I really don't know. They say it's one of the knives from their house. So how could any other knife that could have been found in their house be more incriminating to them? Like, I don't get it. But this is basically the police's theory. The police found in Dylan's room a fancy boxed three-set carving knife. And one of the knives in there is missing. And...

Basically, they say that it's the knife that would have been the right size because they can see where it would have sat in the set, that it would have been the right size for the wounds that Robert had suffered. The knife found in the room that Robert was in... was from the kitchen downstairs so could have just been grabbed by an intruder even though it's very hard to understand why a would-be killer would grab a smallish steak knife when they were much bigger knives.

down in the kitchen but okay if it was the carving knife from dylan's room where is it and i get some people will be like well maybe it's because that boxed set of knives was in his room and they couldn't explain how the killer had got into his room but the other knife is in the kitchen just take the fucking box set downstairs you stayed in a fucking murder scene yeah like i don't understand why

it wouldn't just be the carving set knife if that was really the one that was used why would they try cover it up with a steak knife from the kitchen like i don't get it i was trying to run through this with sam and he was like

Maybe that's a family heirloom and he didn't want the police to take it. And I was like, maybe. But the police searched that house from top to bottom and all the alleys around that house, they searched the streets, they searched the bins. Again, you could say the police are incompetent. They just didn't find the knife.

that it was just hidden really well. And I grant you that's entirely possible with the way they botched this case. But again, to me, it's just the question of why bother planting a fake? Because they never found the knife that should have fitted in that box set. But why bother? I mean... Either leave it or hide it. Why a fake one? Maybe this is how you get away with murder. You just make it so fucking confusing.

That no one can be bothered. The thing is, yes, because I can fucking get away with it. But for me... if they had like wildly underestimated or wrongly estimated what type of knife was used right they use a knife and then they're like quick get a fake knife for whatever reason this is what led to the questions about the conspiracy right because when they go to

the proceedings that we're going to talk about, one of the police's key points is this can't be the knife that was used. And that was the way they were going to prove there was a conspiracy to cover up. So the more you start planting fake evidence, the more likely you are.

to incriminate yourself because the intruder wouldn't have planted fake evidence so either hide it chuck it outside and just say the intruder ran off and chucked it in a bin as he was fleeing or leave it be the minute you start planting fake evidence You leave yourself more and more exposed to be caught for conspiracy to cover up. Why would you cover it up? There's no reason to cover it up if it wasn't one of you. You wouldn't cover it up for an intruder, so therefore it's you. So, I don't know.

I know. We're nearly there, guys. Come on. We got it. Well, not really. We've got five pages to go. There's a lot made of the fact that forensics discovered white fibres on the knife found in the room with Robert and that these fibres were consistent with the towel that had allegedly been used by Joe to apply pressure to Robert's wounds.

And it stated that there was not much blood on the sharp edge of the blade. And the police and prosecution thought that it looked like someone had dipped the towel in Robert's blood and then wiped the towel on the knife. They also didn't find any grey fibres from the t-shirt that Robert was wearing, which again makes some people believe that it wasn't the knife that stabbed him.

But then you have to ignore the fact that Robert's chest hairs and Robert's flesh and fat were found on the knife, which makes me think that it definitely was the knife that was used to kill him. And again. These facts could be up for discussion one way or another, but the issue we need to point out is why plant the knife at all? Leave the actual knife or hide it.

The plant serves no real purpose. Yeah, I think that's the thing that I can't get away from with that. So, who do we think did it? Personally, for me, it's Dylan.

Joe, I know Joe is a favourite for a lot of people, but here's my theory for why I don't think it was Joe. Joe invited Robert over to the house. They are long-time friends. And they have a lot of mutual friends. And Joe is also a hotshot lawyer. He is an associate at the time at Aunt Fox. And yeah, look, people can be arrogant enough or stupid enough to do despicable things and think they can get away with it.

And people don't always act in their own best interest, especially when it comes to sex. They can take big risks, particularly men. So I'm not saying it's impossible that Joe did this because he's successful and has too much to lose. But I just don't. See it. Joe and Victor were huge in the DC gay community. Joe was the face for many advocacy campaigns for gay rights at the time. The story that we told you about how Joe and Victor had both fathered...

a child each with a lesbian couple, had actually been featured in USA Today at the time. It might sound like not particularly revolutionary now, but 20 years ago, it was big news. And Victor and Joe were like the... poster boys for fighting to legalize gay marriage and for providing america with this like vision for gay marriage and gay families and joe loved that loved that side of his life because it gave him a lot of like

Infamy. And that's not to say that he wasn't totally fucked. There's definitely evidence of narcissistic tendencies some of the time.

That's not enough for you. I don't think you'll be able to deny it when you consider that Joe had his own receiving line at Robert's funeral right opposite Kathy, Robert's wife. That to me was just like... what the actual fuck if i was kathy i would punch him in his face kathy is just like the i know she is i'm not i know i'm just like kathy i just i just want to give her a hug and like

punch people on her behalf because a receiving line i don't do people do that a lot in this country because i've never been to a funeral so like i don't know but i understand what it means and i'm like why has joe got one That is bonkers. Family only. Like partner, children if there are any, that's it. It's bonkers. And when it comes to the home set up at Swan Street...

It does appear that Victor was controlled by Joe. You can see that in the way that Joe sent him off to make the 911 call in a different room upstairs. Which, honestly, I'm pretty sure was to implicate Victor in the situation as well.

I totally think that. I think it was like, Joe knows he's into it up to his neck, even though it's Dylan that's done it, in my theory, in my theory, right? Because Joe knows he's the one that's brought Dylan into this house. So Victor is the one that could blow the whole thing, right? Oh, yeah.

Victor, you go make the call. You've now lied to 911. You've now lied to the authorities. You're in this as much as we are. And when it comes to Dylan, he's painted as this like sex maniac dom person. And maybe he was. Maybe he still is. But all of the equipment, etc. Where exactly had that come from? He worked as a masseuse, probably an escort. But he also had some really expensive stuff.

Doesn't that make more sense that Joe, the very successful lawyer, was funding it all for his own benefit? Joe's not stupid. Would he really invite his friend over, his happily married straight friend, and then... Try to do what? Seduce him, coerce him, rape him? Why would he do that? He and Dylan already had their sexy setup and Joe also regularly involved other men.

And we know that because he would post on ALT.com looking for men who were also into BDSM to join him and Dylan. And I think this bit is interesting because... I saw a lot of comments from people who are in the BDSM world saying that it's very weird for the sub to be posting online asking for other people to join them. i don't know anything about this world so i'm taking them at their word if i'm wrong you know short of joining the bdsm community i can't be any more thorough in my research

But basically what they're saying that it would be the dom that did this because it's up to the dom to decide who else joins. It's not up to the sub. So that's the theory. So Joe posting about it when he's the sub, they say is unusual. But in my opinion. I really doubt the whole Dom sub role between Dylan and Joe extended long beyond Joe's climax. I agree. And like... He's the Dom in life, for sure.

And also, like, I thought about this, like, when I was very, very briefly on field. Like, it was a scary place. But, like, even when men talk to you on there and they want to be dominated by you.

Them telling me to do that is also quite dominant. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's all quite complicated. This is what I mean. It's like, if the dom in real life is the sub in the game, then, of course, Jo wasn't just going to be like... yeah dylan you decide who else joins us like he's not gonna be like yeah you decide who else comes into my house and like gets to have sex with me yeah he is the dom in real life so yeah i think whatever but what you see here

is that Joe, it's not enough for Joe, just what he's doing with Dylan. So what do I think happened here? Now, this is all, of course, pure speculation. But was Dylan trying to push things further with Joe? And I say this because a neighbour told the police that she had had a weird conversation with Dylan in the months before Robert's murder. Apparently Dylan had told this neighbour that he was, quote, planning to take over Victor's spot in the relationship.

presumably as Joe's main partner. Was Dylan trying to step things up with Joe? Maybe there had been some chat or like fantasy chat between Joe and Dylan. coming from joe about maybe wanting to do something to a man against his will i'm not saying joe wanted to do that or was going to do that but like fantasy like rape fantasy stuff from joe to dylan

So maybe it was just role play for Joe. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt that it's just chat on his part. Did Dylan think Joe's being serious? That's what he wants. And that's what I'll give him. And so did Dylan take things too far? Did he want to, quote unquote, surprise Joe with Robert? Was there even maybe chat from Joe to Dylan about Robert in the past? That, you know, he's his friend.

I'm not saying Joe was secretly hot for Robert, but I'm just saying, you know, was it Dylan taking some sexual fantasy chat too far into the real world? I don't know. But coming back to Joe posting online to get other men to come and join them, did Dylan see Victor's role in Joe's life as the kind of stable, public-facing husband-partner?

as like making victor indispensable in joe's life because victor is like a hundred percent a part of these advocacy campaigns he's like you know we're basically married we're championing for gay marriage so victor is very useful to joe he can't get rid of him He doesn't want to get rid of him. But now that Joe is starting to put calls out for other men to join them, does Dylan feel vulnerable in being able to keep Joe's interest in him? And therefore, is he trying to up the sexual ante?

by going really really far i don't know i know it feels far-fetched but honestly i can't think of what else makes sense so does dylan basically go into robert's room as robert is you know finishing up those emails with his mouth guard in And did he forcibly masturbate Robert? Was it filmed for Joe? And then did Dylan lose control? And as Robert totally freaked out, because, you know, maybe he's got a knife and Robert's just scared and complying. And then Robert freaks out.

you know when he makes it clear that he's going to anally penetrate him and then does Dylan suffocate or inject Robert with something and then Robert passes out Joe comes down because he hears what's going on and discovers what happened or did Dylan drug Robert straight away he goes in there drugs Robert gives him an injection of something and then he tells Joe to come downstairs like I've got a surprise for you and then Joe comes down Dylan thinks Joe's going to be into it

He is not into it. He's like, what the fuck have you done? And then does Victor come down? Because either he hears something or he follows Joe downstairs because he's sick of the whole fucking Joe Dillon situation. And then they find Robert. Victor screams. This scream is heard next door by the neighbours. And then the three men either think that Robert is dead or they know that he can't wake up because...

they'd all be fucked because he's obviously going to point the finger at Dylan and Joe knows that he has a lot to lose. So then does Joe make Dylan clean up after himself? Stab Robert? so that they can stage it to look like an intruder, and then they get Victor to go call 911, because now they're all implicated. And look, I appreciate that this version has lots of holes in it, still, but it's the closest I can get.

I think, yeah, that's the closest I can get. Because I think we haven't just jumped to that theory. We've worked through all the other possibilities, I feel like, and ruled them in or out. before we got here the thing i still don't know is like about the drugs like i don't know but then yeah maybe maybe victor just had something and he needed to incapacitate robert because he wants it to be part of this fantasy i don't know but

A lot of people online say that Dylan was the one who was losing interest in Joe and Joe was the one trying desperately to keep Dylan in his life. I haven't really seen evidence of that. Joe's the top dog. Yeah. He's the one with the money. He's the one with the job. He's the one who's got a lot to lose. He's the dominant one. And I think people say that because Joe goes so far out to protect Dylan. But he's not protecting Dylan. He's protecting himself. I think...

Dylan was scared Joe was losing interest. I mean, the same thing goes for Victor. He also has too much to lose. Yeah, absolutely. He's got a good life for Joe. And maybe Dylan was promised that he'd get away with it. as long as he kept quiet. Yeah, I think that the deal is Joe gets to keep hold of Joe's life. Victor gets to keep hold of Joe and their life. And Dylan doesn't go to prison for murder.

And as bonkers as it all seems, at first, Kathy and Robert's friends believed Joe that it was some random intruder. Perhaps they thought Joe was Robert's friend, why would he lie? In fact, the day after the murder, friends of the one said that the three men, Victor, Dylan and Joe, turned up at Cathy's house and they asked to speak to her. alone in the basement. We don't know what was said, but Kathy believed them that they were all innocent.

And at the funeral, Joe was a pallbearer for Robert and he spent the entire time playing victim, according to other people who were also there. It wasn't until Joe called the lawyer friend who was helping Kathy navigate the whole nightmarish situation and asked him to get Kathy to waive her privilege to allow this lawyer...

to basically pass on everything detectives had been asking Cathy to Joe, that Cathy started to suspect something. And Joe was right to be concerned, because eventually, after the police showed her everything, Kathy turned on Joe, Victor and Dylan. But the police were floundering. They had run a very poor investigation. And they couldn't move forward. We're trying to convict any of the men.

Because they didn't have any solid evidence tying one or more of them down. And none of them looked ready to break. So an exhausted Cathy, a year after her husband's murder. held a press conference alongside Eric Holder, who's the former US Attorney and Justice Department official, where she pleaded with the killer to come clean, saying, having a murder on your conscience is no small load to carry as you try to live.

as normal a life as possible. Confessing will be one of the hardest things you can do but also one of the most freeing things you can do for yourself. Didn't work. Silence. And with the police unable to arrest them, Joe and Victor sold 1509 Swan Street and moved to Florida. With Dylan. And at first they stayed together, as a family, in quotes. But the police weren't done.

And in November 2008, they charged Joe, Victor and Dylan with obstruction of justice, conspiracy to obstruct justice and tampering with evidence. It was clear from the evidence that the men... weren't being honest about what happened that night, given that there would be no need to lie or hide things if it wasn't one or more of them. This was essentially a backdoor murder charge.

And as a result of these charges, an affidavit was released to the public. And it outlined everything the police had found in the house and totally transformed the public mood around this case. Up until then, friends and also the gay community in DC had stood by Joe and Victor. But now, after they found out about all of the torture porn and extreme devices in the house, all of that support withered away.

And a couple who lived nearby, David Greer and Doug Johnson, started the investigative blog, which I believe they still run today, Who Murdered Robert One? And it has been a very, very, very invaluable resource in helping to write these episodes. So thank you very much, both of you guys. And if you're interested in this case and looking at all the pictures of everything, definitely go check out that blog. So in the lead up to the trial, the men hired three top tier attorneys.

And they agreed to run a joint defense, which basically meant that all of these attorneys and all of the men could share confidential information with each other without losing attorney-client privilege. And it started to pay off immediately. I literally cannot believe these things happened. Basically, two weeks before the trial, the attorneys managed to get all of the sexual stuff, including the hardcore BDSM, the sex toys, all of the hardcore like torture.

porn videos that were in the house everything removed from the evidence everything is gone and they also managed to get the suspected sexual assault dropped from the record which meant that the semen was also now not allowed to be brought up at the trial essentially the judge decided that the police couldn't prove that there had been a sexual assault and they couldn't link that sexual activity because there was clearly sexual activity

But the judge says that you couldn't link that sexual activity with the murder. Which again comes back to the thing that we said, that it feels unbelievable that that happened separately to him also getting murdered within the same small 30-minute window. But, okay.

And then it just got worse. This is quite difficult to understand coming from the prosecution anyway. The defence pushed for a bench trial, knowing damn well that a jury would likely find it hard to ignore the glaring issues with the men's story. And the prosecution allowed it. Glenn Kircher, the lead prosecutor... now says that he does regret this move and it was a pretty large mistake because it meant that the prosecution would have to make their case to the judge and the judge alone and prove

beyond a reasonable doubt, that the three men conspired to cover up the murder of Robert Wan. If found guilty, each of them faced up to 38 years in prison. But it was not going to be easy. To get them in there. Yeah. And I kind of feel like the prosecution made a rod for their own back here. Not just with the bench trial over the jury trial, but also because...

To do this, to prove that the men had conspired in this cover-up of the murder, they decided that they were going to prove that there had been no intruder, firstly, which, okay, that one makes sense. Big tick. But also, according to Glenn Kirchner, they also decided to prove that there had been some sort of cleanup. I think possibly the reason they go with this is A, like we said, if somebody's found with three stab wounds, you expect there to be a lot of blood when there isn't a lot of blood.

You're thinking, why isn't there a lot of blood? If they cleaned it up, it's conspiracy. I also think they were hamstrung here by Dr. Gozlanowski, the Emmy, saying that the cause of death was the stab wounds and that Robert was alive for a while afterwards. She also said that a third of his blood volume was missing. So the question obviously becomes, where did all that blood go? We will come back to this later. But I think, oh, they really, because you didn't find any blood.

but you're saying there was a cleanup. Like, that's tricky. Like, that's a big, big, big decision to make. Kirchner also decided that they were going to show that the knife found in the room with Robert's body was a plant. and to be honest i'm like why do you need to show that because like we said even if it had been like i don't know why they need to show that because it could have been the knife used to stab robert and it's still been one of the men in the house

Like, I think they're so fixated on this idea of it being the carving knife that should have been in Dylan's little three-piece knife set. And yeah, go with that theory. If you'd have found Dylan's three-piece carving knife that's missing, you know... chucked down a drain somewhere or hidden away in the house somewhere but they never find it so why are you going down that road it's like they wanted three points that they could say beyond a reasonable doubt these things happened

But they just don't get there. It did not go well for the prosecution. The defence showed that you could open the front door of 1509 Swan Street by opening the letterbox and sticking your arm in from the outside. Which is terrifying. You have to have quite skinny arms to do that, though. Get a little skinny kid. Get a child. It's possible. It's possible. Yeah.

They also showed that it was possible to climb up and down the fences in the back garden without disturbing the soil in the flower beds. Which, like, yes, it's possible. But why? Yeah, right. And a woman next door came forward and said that she had found footprints in her child's sandbox, like someone had landed on it. The defense also pulled in none other than Dr. Henry Lee.

who explained that Robert's heart had stopped quickly after being stabbed, and that's why there was no car stop. And that was backed up by Dr Najam, a physician from the hospital where Robert was taken. He stated that the stab wound to Robert's heart could have caused immediate incapacitation and would have caused a torrential flow of internal bleeding instead of an enormous amount of external bleeding.

And this internal bleeding can be soaked up into surrounding tissues, making it harder to measure accurate blood volume. And this is the issue with Emmy's findings that a third of Robert's blood was missing. It's not like she drained him to see how much blood was actually in his body. Dr. Gozlanowski just noted that there was no blood at the scene and less blood than she would expect to see in different isolated areas of Robert's body. Yeah.

It really is like dressed up online as if she drained his whole body and there's a third missing. That's not the case. Like it could have easily soaked into tissues and she just doesn't know it's there, right? And there's heaps in his small intestine. Exactly. Two foot worth. Yeah. As for the plant knife, well, Dylan's mum comes to the rescue here. She made an appearance at the trial to say that she had sent her son that three-piece carving set, but before she sent it to him...

She had taken out one of the knives and kept it for herself. But she now had no idea where it was. But basically, that's why it was missing. Sadly, in the end, after a 20-day trial in June 2010.

The judge reached a verdict of not guilty for all three men on all charges. But it is a very weird situation. Basically, the judge states in her final report that she did not believe that the murder was committed by an intruder. So, by default, you are therefore saying that it was committed by somebody in the house. She also concluded that the knife found in the room with Robert was most likely the murder weapon, and I would tend to agree with her.

But she did say that she thought Joe Price had tampered with it in some way. She also ruled that, quote, But for whatever reason, they chose not to. But she found them all not guilty, saying, quote, there's a difference between a moral certainty and an evidentiary certainty.

The following year, Cathy brought a civil suit against Joe Price, Victor Soborski and Dylan Ward for the wrongful death of her husband, and they quickly settled out of court for an undisclosed amount, which Cathy donated to charity. Clearly, they did not want to fight that battle in any kind of court again. And Cathy has said that it was all just too exhausting to keep dragging it out. After all this...

Dylan and Joe both changed their names, and eventually the gang split up. Today, Joe and Victor still seem to be together, living in Florida. Dylan has left that particular relationship and is now married to somebody else. And it's unlikely in this case that we're ever going to know what really happened because it is one of those unbelievable cases where three people are definitely in on a secret.

And they are all keeping quiet. And honestly, now, 20 years later, I just can't see what would cause any of them to break because they got away with it. Yeah. The only scenario in which I see anybody breaking ranks is if Joe ended things with Victor. And I think that would be the point that maybe he would come clean to get back at Joe.

That's the only thing I can see because they wrote out all the scrutiny. They wrote out all the guilt for all these years and they never caved. But short of one of them breaking now, this case will never truly be solved. No. So, and I think Dylan's not going to. He got away with it. He's married somebody else. I think Joe and Victor are probably only still together because they have this secret that binds them and Joe knows what Victor has over him. And that's what Victor wants.

is the relationship with Joe. Again, purely theoretical. But I think Joe knows that if he were to leave that situation, that Victor would be more likely to be like, I'm going to the police. Not saying for sure, but that's just my theory. What's your theory? Who did it? I think Dylan did it. Where I, what I can't decide is whether they intentionally made it so confusing knowingly to get away with it.

Or whether they just got really fucking lucky. Yeah. Personally, I think they got lucky. I think they tried to keep it as simple as possible to not incriminate themselves. Hence not making like a struggle scene or anything like that. But I think the prosecution just, the forensics fucked up with the Ashley's reagent. But I really don't think that's the biggest thing. I think the fact that they couldn't pin it on any of them.

Yeah, some people be like, it's because they failed to break Victor. He was the one they should have targeted and tried to break. But they did, but he wasn't budging. He wasn't budging. Yeah, that's true. And then I think they just made it very, very difficult at the... the obstruction of justice trial by trying to prove there was a cleanup by trying to prove it was a fake like planted knife when like that doesn't prove the conspiracy but I get it

I suppose it's like, what else could they have done to show that these men conspired to cover it up? All they would have really been left with is to show there wasn't an intruder. But to me, I'm like, why isn't that enough? If you can prove there was no intruder.

But then you've got the defense saying somebody could have broken it. Somebody could have jumped over the fence. You can't prove there was no intruder. I don't know. It's tricky. But I honestly think if they'd gone for a jury trial, I think they would have been convicted. I don't think the jury could have got past those questions like the judge was able to because she's like.

moral certainty evidentiary certainty i think a jury would have convicted and i think glenn kirchner knows that now well not that he had to learn that lesson but i don't know i don't know why they did that i don't know why they did that

and i get it some people will also argue if you are ever accused of a crime you should go for a bench trial over a no that's exactly the reason because people will say if you ever get accused of a crime and you're going to trial demand a bench trial not a jury trial some people say you know

In the US, you only have to convince one juror you're not guilty. But I think... Someone should tell them that 12 Angry Men's just a play. But I think the judge is going to be more... discerning about certain things i think they're going to be more logical because you know it's all it's all well and good saying okay if we've decided there's no intruder it has to be one of them yeah you still have to prove which one and that's hard that's the problem i think that is the problem for the judge

is that she can't get to which of them did it. So then they can't punish all of them. Even though I'm like, but it wasn't a murder charge. It was an obstruction of justice. And I think you can prove that all of them are not the obstruction of justice. But again, she's saying you can't prove it.

And she knows that they did it because she says moral certainty. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's fucked. It's fucked. But it's never going to be solved. Sadly. Certainly not by me. My brain's out my ears. I am frazzled. That's just a fine bead of sweat over my face. But that's it, guys. Thank you so much for sticking with us for these two parts on Who Killed Robert 1. You know, we've put forward our theories. I'm interested to hear what people think.

Yeah, I think with this story, you see a lot of like, well, it was just this. Well, it was just this. And I'm like, we've been through it all now. So I'm interested to see what people think now. But yeah, that's it. Thanks so much. And we'll see you next week for something else. When I have recovered, goodbye. I won't have.

You know those creepy stories that give you goosebumps? The ones that make you really question what's real? Well, what if I told you that some of the strangest, darkest, and most mysterious stories are not found in haunted houses or abandoned forests? but instead in hospital rooms and doctor's offices. Hi, I'm Mr. Bollin, the host of Mr. Bollin's Medical Mysteries. And each week on my podcast, you can expect to hear stories about bizarre illnesses no one can explain.

Miraculous recoveries that shouldn't have happened, and cases so baffling they stumped even the best doctors. So if you crave totally true and thoroughly twisted horror stories and mysteries, Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries should be your new go-to weekly show. Listen to Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

In the fall of 1620, a battered merchant ship called the Mayflower set sail across the Atlantic. It carried 102 men, women, and children, risking it all to start again in the New World. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of American History Tellers. Every week we take you through the moments that shaped America, and in our latest season, we explore the untold story of the pilgrims, one that goes far beyond the familiar tale of the first Thanksgiving.

After landing at Cape Cod, the Pilgrims forged an unlikely alliance with the Wappanag people who helped the Pilgrims survive the most brutal winter they'd ever known, laying the foundation for a powerful national myth. But behind that story lies another, one of conflict.

Betrayal and brutal violence against the very people who helped the Pilgrim survive. Follow American History Tellers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of American History Tellers The Mayflower early and ad-free. right now on Wondery Plus.