You are listening to Redefining Energy.
Your co hosts from Berlin Gerard Reave and from London Lauren.
Sag Today on Redefining Energy, We're going to talk about connecting North America and Europe with a very long power cable and to do that, I've got my two partners in this venture, Lauren and Simon on a call, So let's go.
The idea originally came in October twenty two after the pipelines were blown up and all Ukraine situations, and that showed that you can only rely on allies for our energy security. But of course the idea of a cable across the Atlantic, although it has been done with the telegraph in eighteen sixty six and we've got dozens of Internet cable but the question was is it technically possible.
That's the first ques and the answers is provided by the CEO of National Grid, John Pettigol on interview he gave six months ago on the podcast, and so that you know, National Grid is the largest operator in the world of subscinta connector. So if there is one person on this planet who knows something about long distance cable, that's John Pettigle. Let's listen to the interview.
Another area of National Grids business in the ventures, which is your interconnectors. It's actually pretty large part of your activity. I think I saw a quite cool photo of you being handed the Guinness World Record for the longest power cable in the world for your Viking protect That must have been an exciting day, John.
Yeah, it's fantastic. Actually, I guess most people don't realize, but naturally don't. Six interconnectors now with France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway and the latest one is Denmark and it is the longest subse land HBDC cable in the world. We got the in the Guinness Book records for that. But Nash Grid with the largest owner in the world of subc cables now. So it is a significant and important part of our business and directly linked into our views
on the energy transition. So increasingly we think networks across Europe will need to be interconnected, particularly to take advantage of the offshore wind resource we got in the North Sea. So to date, you know, we've been investing what we call point to points into connectors, but we do see it as the start or what ultimately will become an offshore grid. So it's an important part of our business. And when we're very proud.
Of with these interonnectors, and you've already got the record for the longest subse cable, but in my mind I always wonder how far could we go with this? Both well many from a technical perspective. I mean there's been discussion of having solar projects in North Africa link into the UK or even into Germany. There's been discussion even of a could we have an interconnector across the Atlantic? What is the physical limit that you think to one of these long cables.
You're right, a lot of work is being done and if you sort of separate the sort of engineering feasibility from the economics feasibility, there is no doubt from an engineering perspective you could connect Morocco which is the exce Links project to southern England with a large interconnector. From an engineering perspective, I think people have got themselves comfortable that is something that's achievable.
Would you want to say something about John Bittig or Simon. Yeah.
At National Grid are clearly the leaders in developing, executing and operating subsey cables, and as a whole, Great Britain is really leading the way and will continue to do so for some years to come. As an island, we're heavily dependent on both importing and exporting electricity as a
great trading nation. But I think also looking forward, as we fill and all sea and other shallow basins around the world with wind farms and cover our fields with solar, we need to think after twenty thirty, after twenty forty, what are we going to do. We're talking already about dunka flouters and other problems that we foresee having concentration of renewable volatile power. So the logical next step is to connect uncorrelated solar and win basins around the world
to mitigate that risk. And I think that's where North Atlantic Transmission one comes into the four.
Let me jump in there and just say, really tople up simple English. When it's sunny here, it's dark in North America. When it's windy there, it's not windy here. And we've looked back over weather data over the last twenty years and we see zero correlation. And that makes it really, really really interesting.
Yeah, So to explain where we're at right now. I gave an interview in February to another podcast called Joel, So there's a lot of circular academy. You know, I reuse, I reuse a lot. But it was a very good interview. So rather than repeating, we're gonna listen to myself talking too jorts.
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Jolt. I'm your host, Sam Morgan. Imagine this, if you will, a huge power cable link in North America and Europe, electricity firing off in both directions to make the most of renewable energy when it can be generated and when it can be consumed. Sounds fanciful, right Well, on today's episode, I'm looking into why this idea could be a win wind for both sides of the Atlantic, and how the project might actually
be realized. A couple of nights ago, I was working up by my shutters banging against the window frame thanks to some particularly strong winds in the early hours of the morning. That got me thinking, as I lay there trying to get back to sleep, isn't it a shame that all of that wind is pretty much going to waste as during the night there isn't much demand for electricity. We can only store so much of it, so a
lot of potential green electrons go to waste. Today, though, we are taking a look at an ambitious power project idea that could solve that problem. Well if you could power a different part of the world where energy demand matches renewable energy supply patterns. If you laid a power cable from Europe to North America, for example, then you could do just that. Nighttime winds in the North Sea could power evening demands across the pond, while North American
electrons could satisfy Europe's morning peak. That cable would of course be the longest ever installed and would pose a mighty infrastructure challenge, but that has not stopped some of the brightest minds in the business from trying to turn this from great idea to fantastic reality. I'm lucky enough to be joined today by one of the pioneers behind this project to learn a bit more about the logic behind the idea, the challenges it faces, and why those
in power should give it a chance. Laurent Segela is a clean energy banker with decades of experience in this sector, whose latest venture, megawatt X, is behind the NATO l power cable plan. I kicked off my conversation with Lauren by asking him to go a little bit more into why building a transatlantic power link is a good idea.
The genesis came when the North Stream system blew up two and a half years ago, So that was really a bit of what they call a Sputnik moment where you operalize that you cannot rely on Russia for their energy needs. I think Canada has experimented seeing a similar issue with what's going on with the Trump administration. First question you need to ask yourself is why when you
do inter collector? Is why do you do inter connector? Because, as you said, the Custo lot have a changing problem and at the end of the day, the fundamentals are number one, security, Number two, we have a growth in power demand, data centers, transportation, heating. But who sees that the grid is becoming more and more intermedtent And because I developed an interconnector previously a new one which is going to link Dublin and Liverpool, I had a bit
of an understanding on how to develop an interconnector. And then you ask the question about the economics, Well, for me, it's really about wind. We're gonna rely more and more
on the North Sea and it's a great success. But as a lot of people may know, when is intermedent in the NORSEA, maybe you get a forty to fifty percent of capacity factor, but as pretty much it so we've developed a lot of interconnectors in your hope, but sometimes when it's blowing in the North Sea, you know it's blowing in England and in Denmark or in Belgium
at the same time. The balancing of the Nasia resource is not that obvious now if you look on the other side, and it's very important that an interconnector makes sense for the boss country that they connect Canada and especially Quebec as a very different grid. Quebec is a bit Norway on steroids in the sense that they have an extraordinary amount of hyrol but they are very mindful of how to use those resources. They are exporting quite
a lot to the US, which is always difficult. And what you realized is that with six hours of the radiation of the Earth, in fact the peak demand which are seven am to nine am and four pm to nine pm, are not aligned. Basically, it's the full night in Europe when it's the peak in Canada and when
it's our morning peak, it's night over there. And the team we've run a lot of analysis and this has also been supported by a study by Amber and Energy, meaning that it makes a lot of sense from a Greek perspective to combine in a certain way the two grids.
What kind of role could this project actually play in both Europe's and North America energy transitions?
Then?
Could it be a fundamental cog in Europe's decarbonization mission or is it potential a little more nuanced than that.
Well, our plan is to develop three interconnectors of two giga what each, So in the grand scheme of things they want to put one hundred gig in the North Sea. It's not going to move the needle a lot. What it will allow is in pairs of stress, whether here or over there, it will cap the price because you will be able to get power pilow one hundred you op omega what hour. Otherwise you will need to fire some very expensive CCGT and polluting CECILGT or running more coal.
And if you consider that the batteries which are great, but the battery is mostly going to cover two or three hours in terms of intense stress. In terms of the call floater a big interconnectois is an extraordinary diversification. So it's not going to change fundamentally, but it's going to create a lot of resiliency on the margin.
Now, obviously, linking two continents that are separated by one of the world's largest and deepest bodies of water is no walk in the park. It poses an immense engineering challenge and if the project were completed, it will rank among some of humanity's most impressive achievements. But are we overreaching slightly here or could this actually be done? Lauren explains here why the answer is yes, we can.
The idea came on the back of the project of the sun Cable wants to link Australia to Singapore and also exce links who want to link more code to UK or Germany. So it means it that been worked already by excellent professionals. The biggest link right now is the Viking Link hate hundred kilometer, so we need to okay, let's say times five. But you know, if you look at a lot of investment which has been made in a transition where there is some nice discovering the lab
and people needs to want times one hundred. I would say times five is very reasonable. Now, if you look at the supply chain, it exists on supply chain, it's called it. Tacchi. Ge Acker National Grid already managers six interconnectors. So we have talked to those people and they all said, look, yeah, it's long, it's deep, it's challenging, but yeah, with just one generation away, So there was no technical red flag. In terms of technology.
Interconnectors have been in the news a fair bit lately. Lauren already mentioned nord Stream too earlier in the show. Power cables in the Baltic have been damaged and in all likelihood targeted. It's even prompted NATO to launch a
special mission to protect this vital infrastructure. So I asked Lauren, is there a danger that governments will actually go in the opposite direction and turn their noses up at more interconnectors, risking that Transatlantic idea never being given an actual fair hearing.
Well, I say you and retract. But at the end of the day, this is a very long term project. If you only think defense, you never do the Panama Canal, you never do the Swiss Canal. Some people like to build walls and others like to build bridges, so we must be optimistic. And the fact that the wind doesn't blow at the same time on both sides of the Atlantic, and we're going to rely on clean power that makes
it interesting. We need to deliver positive messages. Now there's going to be a lot of work to be done. From a technical point of view, how do you lay cable that deep? We're going to need to use new technologies because right now we're using mostly one a thousand voults. We need to go to one million involved, but you know Chinese they already use one million involved. We need to choose the route call Arctic Root, Northern rout, Southern rout. We need to know where we're going to land, but
we have identified landing zones. And then, as you said, a lot of discussion around regulation permitting financial models. But look in terms of a footprint, the size of the cable, it's just a it's a big pizza, so I mean, it's not that big.
You know. When I first read about this project, my first reaction was fascination. I am, after all, a little boy at heart who will always be enthralled by big bridges. Giant ships and tour skyscrapers. But what are the reactions of other people been, especially those that might be able to help get this project off the ground.
At the beginning, everybody was kind of got smacked. But you know, the more you think about it, we have the supply chain, we have the tools. They are strong economic rational, they are strong security irrational from both sides. Now, it's going to take maybe ten years. But when I had first the idea and I googled, I saw nobody's doing it. So I said, look, maybe I'm a bit foolish,
but I'm going to start. And thanks God, I've got your hard read and Simon Ludnam as a co partners, and each of them brings enormous level of contacts and knowledge. And you know, we know how to price those interconnectors. We understand the regulation that needs to be changed. It's a very long journey. I'm sure over time those cables will exist because they make so much sense for post parties.
I think today's episode is a great reminder, in my point of view, at least, that there is room in the energy transition, maybe even a need to think big. Why shouldn't north sea wind power quebecuar homes. Why shouldn't Portuguese solar fuel finish sawners. We have the technology to pull much of this off, so big ideas like the one being developed by Lauren deserve to be heard.
Now part of our process, we have engaged with the best of the best in the world. And when it comes to HVDC technology and the capacity to build long cable there is one expert that everybody knows and everybody respect. It's Connell Display, global head of HVDC at DNV. Let's hear read directly from him. Hi, cornelis how are you doing so? Conneis your global head of HVDC at DNV.
So you know a thing or two about subsynta connectors and you recently published a very technical document where you analyze what you now call the ultra long subse cables. So what are the main conclusions?
Thanks for the opportunity to come onto your show. We've been really interested in how far you can go with HIDC. We've always been saying that you can go as far as practically relevant with HIDC, but we always assumed that this was using overheadlines and we just wanted to know it's the same truth for underground and submarine cables, because we see many projects being proposed these days with lengths
over one thousand kilometers, sometimes several thousands of kilometers. So what we did is we there's been very simple linear analysis looking at some basic aspects of those systems to say, hey, do we at some distance, at some transmission length start running into real fundamental issues run So we looked at
the impact on the system designed. For example, we looked at the impact on the losses in the system, the availability, the ability to test the cable after it's been installed, and also how long it would take to actually manufacture this cable. And from the analysis that the bottom line conclusion is we don't see any significant red flags for the first few thousand kilometers. I've also discussed this with a few of the other participants at the conference that
I was at last week. There were manufacturers there also some utilities and the converted manufacturers that I spoke to. They all seem to agree that we do not see any real technical limits for those few first thousands of kilometers. So one could say from that perspective it is technically feasible.
So in fact, those subsey cables if you are from a public policy, you know, long term strategy. You've got guys coming with the fusion energ or hydrogen I don't know what ortorium reactors, which frankly don't exist here. What you're saying is with what we have today and can get better in the next ten years, and the supply chain that exists with guys like Prismian and Kat and
the Semens, the Itashi, the g of this world. Those people just saying like, wow, it's long, it deep, it subtenly tough, but yeah.
For sure challenging, but not impossible.
Right.
The challenge will be in controlling the quality of the cable so you can control the failure rate, which of course is just a statistic really, but it's a very important one. When the cable length starts becoming ultralong more than a thousand kilometers, that's something that we don't have a lot of experience with today in the industry, where we have based our technology qualification on the assumption that
we have much shorter lengths. So we have to really think about how do we prove that our production processes are really controlled to the degree that you need to control them to have as low as possible filureate to make sure that those cables are in operation for long enough every year that the business case still is a positive.
One in the end.
That's one thing, but that's an engineering and a manufacturing problem that we can overcome. The other one is, of course the production capacity. The production of submarine cables is not a very fast process, so we will need more
than several production lines to do that. Again, that's something that the industry is at the moment, not yet in a situation where we have that much production capacity that we can do this, but that's again a matter of engineering and investment in additional production capacity to make that happen, which if the business case is there, can be done.
So right now in your hope, we have this standout called the too gigawatt TENET or the to giga at National Grid. Do you see evolution, because this has been a long journey to go from those first two undred megawat cables to now the two gigaward, which is really phenomenal, But the story continues, for sure.
The industry will probably first want to see to get some operational experience with this new voltage level that is associated with the standard five hundred and twenty five thousand volts. But in the meantime we can already see that manufacturers are developing products for higher voltages six hundred and forty kilo votes for example, which with a submarine cable would probably enable.
You to have a free gigawat link.
That will be the next step. And also if you're going for alpha long cables, going to a higher voltage as benefits for the system design, it all make it easier, like a million voltes. That will be a future picture.
We have that for overhead lines.
Of course, time will tell if we can also do that for insulated cables. In my understanding that the highest voltage that has been developed today is one hundred thousand holds for underground cable, but that has never really seen a practical application yet. So amiliar voters were now probably still a bit of a dream, but why not.
I understand the cable can be as big as three giga award, but you know that grid integration is an issue, and you might have grids who are a bit reluctant to have a single point of failure of three gigawats, and maybe they're going to go for two giga awards. Now, when we have designed the North Atlantic transmission, one link, we put six, so six is three times two or two times three. At the end of the day, it's up to the regulators, grid manager and the industrial supply
chain to decide which is the best options. So we're open minded, will follow what the industry and the sides.
And even if you have three times too, there's another trick that you could apply from a system design perspective,
which is a so called metallic return. Typically it is way too expensive to do that with such a long link if it's just one time too, but if you have pre links, you might be able to share such a metallic return between the pre links and that can cut the two gigawads into two times one gigawads in terms of maximum lots of Infeed, depending on how utilities model the contingencies, that could provide a path forward to smooth that the grid integration of those kind of systems.
Well comedies, Thank you so much. It was brief, but it was dence and it was very useful. And the general message is thanks to the engineers and the supply chain and all the hard work you're doing. There is no red flag in terms of developing those ultralong cable Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you ever.
Yeah, just echoing some of Canelis's thought and looking forward. Clearly, we're not going to build this tomorrow, but we're going to build this for twenty forty and the products and services that are being used or implemented today will clearly developer time. And we're already speaking to the OEMs that they themselves are thinking what does their future look like,
what do their future markets look like? And clearly looking forward, we can see that longline interconnectors or longline transmission cables will be a substantial part of the cable market in the future. This means we need to address the challenges of depth and losses, and the new products that the big OEMs are developing will look to reduce losses that could be done by working at much substantially high voltages.
And we've already seen that in Asia and new boats being developed that can position cables subsed at three thousand meters, and we're already beginning to see that in some places in the Mediterranean. So I'm very hopeful that the market will move with us to developing the products and services we're going to need to implement this project.
So the other thing is really important when it comes to interconnectors is the legal basis, because at the end of the day, you're connecting two or more countries together. So what we've done is teamed up at one of the best lawyers in the world in this area and is a Silka Goldberg. Let's hear what she has to say.
Ske thank you so much for jumping in.
Thank you very much for having me.
Silka, I just want to discuss very rapidly because you're one of the most knowledgible lawyer when it comes to interconnector. Can you discuss a bit what you've done.
Sure. First of all, I have to say I find interconnectors fascinating because they have the ability to bring electricity markets together in a way and sort of drive integration and sort of lower power prices. So I've always been fascinated by them. I have worked on probably eight interconnectors in total across the entire development cycle. For some I've worked very initially on the scoping on how does this
project look like? For others, I've done trading arrangements. For others, we've looked as a firm at the EPC contracts and the strategy for it, and for others we've looked at the financing. The last one is worth mentioning for noy connect let on the financing of the non connect interconnected between GB and Germany. In addition, I've also worked on ato so offshore transmission cables and interconnectors outside of GB around the world.
So just for our listener, Silk, she know what's talking about and she has very kindly accepted to look into the legal challenges in relation to the development of the Transatlantic cable. So, sil K, what's going to be new? What can be used from existing practices? So how do you see the legal picture?
Thank you Lare. There are some things which will be just like any other interconnector. You will need to have a great connection at both ends of the cable, subject to the terms that the system operators will give you in both jurisdictions. You will need to have planning permission. Also, nothing new is like any other project, so there's a very well shrodden path. We know how that works in
the UK, we know how that works in Canada. In anywhere else where you might want to make landfall, you will need to have an interconnector license in the UK, you will need to have the relevant authorization for an economic license in Canada, and again anywhere where you make landfall, you will need to have what is the exact root of your cable. And this is where it starts to get really interesting because at the same time this is
very well established. We know how to do surveys for these cables from many other interconnectors, but the sheer, size and length of your cable will really be different, and so we'll probably have new geographical challenges or topological challenges which you will need to address. But there are other professionals in that area who can advise you better. Just from a legal perspective, this is ultimately just a survey contract. You might need to get special ships and under like
environmental matters, so an environmental impact assessment. Then you also need to look at the same at the other end, so a lot of it is really really well trodden ground. The really big difference is size and scale and also as a result the regulatory status. In gb for instance, we have an exempt status for interconnectors sort of under certain circumstances, and we have a regulated status for interconnectors and the cup and sort of which is the cup
and floor regime, which has been very well established. We need to establish really what of the two regimes is most suitable. And because it will only ever go, let's face it, until the end of the eest the exclusive economic zone for Great Britain, we need to look what does the regulatory regime look at at the other end of the cable and what really happens in an area where there is no e set any longer, and how
is that cable really regulated at that point? And that is really new, so we don't know because it hasn't been done before. So we need to do some legal work around that and sort of speak to all the regulators involved and establish a unique regulatory regime to make sure the cable has an appropriate economic framework.
Yes, but they already internet cables in the ocean, so I guess there are elements of the internet cable that can also be used for the power cable.
Some elements for sure. So for instance, there is the United Nations Law of the c Young Class and in particular Article seventy nine actually talks about submarine cables and pipelines on the continental shelf. So we do have therefore some elements of a legal framework. But internet cables are also gas pipelines or oil pipelines that might be very far and might cross the E set or be indeed
outside the E set of several states. They have some similarities, but they don't have quite the same regulatory needs as electricity cables. So yes, there's young class. There is sort of I would call it a legal scaffolding around it, but we need to work with the regulators and make sure that we adapt it as is needed for the cable Well.
Sir, thank you very much. The great things working with you is that I absolutely don't have the answers, I may not even have the questions, but I know I can rely on extraordinary professionals like you to push this project forward. Thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you so through all those interviews, John Pettigrew, Corneli Split, Salca Goldberg, we have people who have inspired us or help us, and so far we've done it on our
own time and budget. But we believe now we reach a moment where it starts to crystallize around energy security, around resiliency, around strategic partnership between our lies. We have received sufficient green lights, especially in our conversation unfortunately on our NDA, so we can't really tell more, but with very senior people on both sides of the Atlantic, and it's time for this project to move into the next phase,
which is raising money and developing the real technical visibility studies. Simon, do you want to say something about how we're going to develop the next two or three years?
Yeah, if you've got this far listening to the podcast, you'll know from all the experts that have come before us is that to connect us a very broad in scope. They create many independencies and they're clearly multiplied by the sort of cross border nature of them, so there are
many many aspects to look at. We plan our projects clearly meticulously, and you know, we use all sorts of industry software, plus our own models that we've developed with other projects, and the input of all the experts we've heard before. So we look to work on tasks that are going to address the very difficult questions upfront, and so we can provide clarity to investors and to government stakeholders that we're focusing on the right thing and de
risking the project. Maybe to give you just sort of a flavor of the type of things that we'll be doing over the next twenty four months. Clearly, the first one is project recognition and we'll work with some of the major institutions on both sides of the Atlantic to make sure that this project becomes part of the fabric
of the future networks. In Europe that's more likely to be TYNDP and projects of mutual interest, and on the North American side we look to work with DOE pup ANDEIPC to make sure that we're part of their transmission network. Looking forward, we'll be developing the needs case. That's obviously a must, and we have a significant economic model around that so that we can guide our decisions by putting all these inputs into a model that gives the returns
to the project. The next, probably bigger area is to look at where our grid connection points will be. We'll do a lot of tech scoping on that and we'll look for the optimal connection points. That's clearly both economic, political and technical, and so that will involve us talking to a broad range of stakeholders to consider where the optimal points were. And obviously we're not building it for tomorrow, so we need to think where would be the optimal
point to connect. Given all of the investment that we're making at the moment to institute or install renewable energy sources on both sides of the Atlantic, we must leverage the investment we make today and then maybe just moving on to the system itself. As I said earlier, we're talking with the OEMs, but we're working through a system
design of what this might look like. They're clearly lots of options in front of us, but at this stage we'll be looking at at a high level to think of the optimum in terms of losses, materials, cable routs, and we'll do that in conjunction with the major OEMs, academia and other inputs that we can have from people
who are also working on these long line cables. And lastly, it goes without saying that ultimately this needs to be financed, and we'll work very closely with insurers and banks at a very early stage to understand what's important for them. We can't do this without the money. We need to understand their risks right at the get go and address them through both design and the structure which we put
in place. So that's a bit of a flavor of the things we're going to do for the first twenty four months.
Yes, because Simon, the philosophy of this project is that for more than a majority of his revenues, it has to stand on his it meaning creating real economic value for both sides. It is not the project that we envision being just financed by taxpayer public money, which we know is very scarce right now. So although governments will be involved, very much involved, we see the beginning this project being private led with the support of government rather than government.
Lad That's correct, Lauren, when we look at their command no regulatory models across the Atlantic at the moment, they're probably not the type of models that would work for this project. And so we need to think, as you said, let's make sure this is privately led, privately financed led,
and that we develop regulatory models. It will need to be regulated if nothing else from a Flowers perspective, in the future, but that those develop with interaction with the key stakeholders, the regulators and the government as we go forward.
I would add one thing to this. The way we look at this is this is a win win interconnector, and I explain what we mean by that. Oftentimes what happens is you build an endic connector to say that, take the case of the one from Norway to Germany. What happens is Norwegian power prices go up and German prices go down. That's all good, except the Norwegian customer loses. And the very very thing that's interesting about what we're
doing is that both sides win. Again, what you've got is surpluces of electricity that you have to do something with, and you're moving it across the Atlantic. So I think this is one of the things that makes it unique. And what that means is it looks incredibly well from a commercial.
Point of view.
Finally, to conclude from a capital raising, what is our strategy.
Yeah, so we're going out to market right now and the idea is to get strategic investors in and investors really that can bring value to us along this journey. And I just want to say to people, if you're interested, please feel free to reach out to myself, to Simon or to go on directly. Other than that, you'll probably be hearing from me in the next few weeks.
Since the man, it's a pleasure partnering with you. And as the saying goes, ad Astra Per Aspera or at Canada Perasperra very good. Thank you, Thank you for listening.
To Redefining Energy.
Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify for the platform of your choice.