You're listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin Gerard Reid and from London Laurent Segala. Today on Redefining Energy, we're going to talk about grid enhancing technologies. It's really time to address that. Butterneck, because we hear all over the place that the main hindrance for the development of vulnerabile is connection q so grid operators just says, sorry, we're full, you need to wait four years. But first a word from our new sponsor, a Mundi,
and they are so professionals that they have had a professional announcement. Speaker, Let's listen to her. Redefining Energy sponsored by A Mundi, the leading European asset manager, your trusted partner to accelerate the transition to a low carbon future. Leading asset manager based on the IPE ranking. Investing involves risk can
sort your financial advisor. Yeah, a lot of things are not changing in greed technologies and there's been this extraordinary report and we put the links in the shoe from our friends RMI, the x Rocky Mountain Institute that are explaining all the new technologies which are available. Some are digital, some are hardware, and they're all under that moniker of greed enhancing technologies. So they speak about, oh my god, you've got three mains, which are pfc's powerflow controls,
DLR, dynamic light rating and TOO technology optimization. But that's just to get the best out of existing cables. We also want to talk about new technologies in cabling, and that's why we decided to bring on Jason Wild, who is the CEO and founder of a company called TS Conductor, to talk about really reconducting. Jason has a PhD in materials science and an extensive experience in carbon fiber composite, and it comes originally from the aircraft industry, so
that's different thinking to an old industry. And he has been working and listened to that on the Boeing Dreamliner, the Airbus three point fifty and for the military the F eighteen, F twenty two, and F thirty five. So is one of the brightest mind when it comes to new materials. So let's bring him on the show. Jason, Welcome to the show. Thank you
very much for the opportunity to be here. Jason, I was recently at a meeting where there was a whole pile of officials in the United States from the DOE, from the various grid operators, and I was really taken back by one comment which was, all, great, we have this Inflation Reduction Act which is going to push homegrown industry and on AM, but we won't be able to get the power to it because we can't build the grid quick
enough. Then we had a discussion in around the bottlenecks and an ad Listen, I know you're in the middle of it, but I'd love you to just talk about what is going on in the power grid in the United States and how you see that When you think about IRA, majority of the incentives
are really for renewalboard development, battery technologies. We hardly see much related to grid grid deployment in the US. If you look at how many years the renewed board developer had to wait for the connection to happen with a grid or average, it's about four years. That's a very significant weight period. And you look at from a bigger picture perspective. One is energy transition. We
only consume a third of the energy in the form of elect tricty. The other two third we have to figure out a way to convert to electricity for electrification of everything. In all these renewables that are waiting to be connected with iron money, they're going to be even more of a waiting queue. The reason being there are a lot more money going into these renewable development, so that challenge in terms of bottleneck in the grid is going to become even more
severe. And I read recent Navidia announcement that last quarter they sold about half million aigpus those modules. Each one of them consumes the same amount of electricity of average US household in a year. They just added five hundred thousand homes in terms of electric mode and they're just starting to skyrock in terms of demand for their product. So we're going to see this problem getting actually worse.
And you look at challenges in upgrading the power grid. If you are looking at new lines, some of the new lines takes ten or twenty years to build. Obviously it's going to cost a lot of money. The other aspect is reconductoring, and I hope that we have a chance to talk about that because that is significantly ignored a segment that can sholp us to address energy transition needs, but do it with affordability and also do it with a sense of
urgency as well. We do not have unlimited time in terms of climate change. I'm glad you're here because nobody even used reconductoring a year ago. And now I'm sure if you do the Google search on that world you see it start to spike. Now, what going enjoying is a concept of replacing old wires with new wires. So in fact, the great advantage we see is that somehow we can use the same pylons. Putting new pilons is probably what
u TD wants to do, But in fact it's all about efficiency. It's about using the same pilons and just put more efficient and powerful wires without the pilons crumbling under the weight of their own wires. How did you come about? Because you know you have a background of advanced material and so how are the wires today the one we use? And where are we heading? When you think about our industry, the conductors that are used in basically it's the
backbone of our paragrid. We're still relying on a conductor technology called ACSR. It stands for Aluminum Conductor steel reinforced that was developed in nineteen oh eight. It was combining the aluminum at the time, which is hard aluminum with high strand steel. Think about one hundred years ago. The high strand steel is not quite strong enough, so you had you leverage the strengths from heart aluminum. And when you use heart aluminum, you are not getting the best electrical
connectivity. And you also have a temperature limit because if you go above ninety three degrees any grade, the aluminum is going to get anold from hard to soft and you will lose strengths. You're going to create sac problem. That is what's limiting our current carrying capacity in the grid. This I would argue it's probably more than ninety percent or even ninety five percent of the global grid in terms of the wires that are used in the grid. So the technology
itself is what's limiting our grid capacity. And you look around everywhere in our daily lives. How many things that are one hundred years old or even older that are still around. We have that with our power grid. The way to address it in terms of our grid capacity it is the conductor, because that's how the electron get delivered, that's how electron moves. We have to have a bigger pipeline quote unquote, a better conductor. That's able to carry
more preferably with the same structure. And you mentioned about reconductoring. Reconductoring, it is about leveraging the existing infrastructures, the existing rights of way, the existing towers or pylons or poles, and if you can avoid retrofiting those structure, it's even better. But even if you have to retrofit some structure, it will still be better off in terms of cost, in terms of project schedule compared to do a rebuild or brand new transmission line. And that's how
we address energy transition with urgency and with affordability. That is, leverage what we currently have instead of wasting them. You know, have to start from new. Jason can ask a little bit about your sales process into this industry, because you've just talked about a technology which is one hundred years old, and I could actually argue, actually the way the grid has been managed hasn't changed in one hundred years as well. So you've got a really conservative industry
and you're bringing a new technology to market. And if I really look back in the last twenty years, there's very few technologies in the grid area that have come to market, and I suppose are they in enough pain now at this point in tam to make changes by design, our utilities are monopolies, so they do not have to in the way to compete the way private industries
do in the past. I mean even today you could say that utility do have the right prerogative in terms of safety, reliability of the system, and the new conductor technology has to pass certain significant hohts, especially in terms of safety and a reliability. So in the past twenty to thirty years there have
been attempts terms of bringing new material science to the conductor space. For example, using composites that we can manage the sag associated with steel, we can manage the weight being heavy we steal, make the new strength material lighter and also have a stronger material than steal. And those attempts have not quite been as successful because they are not able to check the box in terms of reliability, safety and also robustness in the field line crew. Their safety depend on
the product's integrity. I think there's a word of zero error tolerance. That is exactly the phrase zero error tolerance in terms of TS technology. What I can do is provide a very short answer here, what does T and S stand for? T in Our technology stands for technology. We do integrate the best mature science have to offer today. That is the most conductive aluminum combined
with carbon composite material. It is not only the best possible material in building a conductor as a strength number because it's super lightweight twenty percent of steer weight, virtually no summer expansion in twice the strength of steel. It is also a relatively proven material system because it's used in aerospace for the past fifty years. So that's on the mature science side. The other part of TS is
the s the safety aspect. We feature a unique aluminum encapsulation protection around our carbon composite core that allows the product with safety, reliability, longevity or designing. It has the necessary robustness in the field and it is compatible with traditional work practice in terms of storage, installation, maintenance or emergency restorations. That is what's needed by our industry. So you have to have a technology. It's not just performing and we can do two x or three x in capacity
and also bring efficiency too the grid. But more importantly we have to check the box in terms of safety, reliability, longevity, workmanship in the field, and we can check those boxes Jason. When I look at your partners, I see National Grid, I see next their Energy, which is probably one of the biggest utt in the US, and of course breakthrough energy coming
out of big gates. How did you convince those initial partners, because I guess that must have been more difficult than rolling out later first off Bill Okay's breakthrough energy venture. We have been very blessed with their support. They're passion about environmental clause about sustained development. So do we. And by the way, we are a public benefit corporation in addition for being for profit, because we have to take care of our investor partners and our public mission is sustainable
development in greenhouse gas emission reduction. We take that very seriously. In terms of National Grid Next Era, we could not have asked for a better partner, utility partner in particular, they did their fiework, they vetted our technology, and they are already using our technology now next Era for example their own FBL and we just did our first project with them. Granted that the big utilities, they have a process, they have a protocol and you have to
follow and this is why it takes time to get technology adopted. With utility companies, but at the same time there are also more nimbo utilities. For example, we work with TVA Basing Electric, MDU Mid American RPAPS and they are already our customers in terms of using TIS technology, not a pilot base, but actually commercial projects, and we are very grateful for their support.
For our industry to move forward and for society to complete energy transition, you need visionary companies like nexs Era, like National Grid, so we're very blessed with their support. Jason, can I ask you about the incentive structures that are in place in the market, because LN sort of said it at the beginning of the discussion, which was what you've got is the pylons, and
you've got a conductor on top of it, and you're changing it. But actually a lot of the incentives are that let's not just change the cable, let's change also the pilon. So tell me about how the incentive structure is it helping you or is it hindering you? And you need changes in the regulation. Let me explain it this way. Our customer base are heavily regulated, so they had to follow the rules that's established their buying pattern, their
technology adoption is also affected by policy and the regulated utility. Their business model is simply make capex investment and then get the return on the capex investment. So naturally the higher the capex, the better. So when you look at building new lines versus reconductoring, which one is going to have a greater capex. That's the new lines and a rebuild versus reconductoring. And this is why you don't really hear much about reconductoring, And that might be one of the
reasons. Another point I wanted to make regarding the policy side or regulation side efficiency, we have made a lot of progress as society in the consumption side of electricity. Look at your kitchen, dishwashers, microwaves, you have energy star rating. You actually get paid for being more efficient. On the generation side, whether it's solar panel or wind turbines, we have far more efficient generation systems in place, but we're not paying much attention to the grid,
the middle the delivery of electricity. Some of it had to do with the lack of choice in conductors or a SSRs, so you're not going to have a more efficient conductor, right, But the policy is behind the curve in terms of now you do have technologies that are substantially better in terms of efficiency, and we actually do give credit for transformers that use a morphous metal that gives a very tiny bit improvement in efficiency, but we do not have a
policy or a mechanism in place for a more efficient conductor to be used. I would go further on this topic that if we allow, from a policy standpoint, the efficiency, the line loss reduction of using conductors like ts to be monetized, you can transform the business. You can transform energy transition because that economic benefit, in addition to a environmental benefit by the way, can
be used to pay for the costs associated with great upgrade. Especially if you do reconductoring, you can recope that entire project cost in a matter of a couple of years. That is not being made aware to our policy makers, to the legislations, and a policy change like that could change the world,
could transform energy transition. One thing myself and Iran had a discussion the other day was in and around the ratings of lines, which is the rated at a particular temperature, and oftentimes the standards are even at a particular date on them, which is absolutely ridiculous because in winter you can put more power down
them because the tables are cool. I'd interested here how you see sulfur and controls as part of managing this type of power flows down lines and also does it fit into what you're doing, and how do you see it fitting in because you're a material science company. Really you look at capacity rating. Our industry is very conservative, so when they do capacity rating, they normally assume the worst case. Okay, there's not much of a wind going and the
ambient temperature is very warm, so you are limited by that. And some utility have a winter rating and also a summer rating, and one of them is the peak load or the peak capacity. Constraints situation. When the weather changes. When I say weather change, I mean wind condition changes, ambient temperature changes, even sun you know you have clouds versus no cloud you have a very significant impact in terms of how much current the circuit can carry.
And this is where digitization comes in in terms of make the control room with the awareness of what is actually going on with the circuit. This is the where TIS technology we believe is already state of the art, there's additional room to improve. That is, we are working on making the conductor smart itself and we're integrating an optical fiber inside. It's like creating the nerve inside the conductor that allows you to tell the control room what is the conductor temperature and
what is the line sagging. We do not need any assumptions whatsoever. With this technology. We will be able to add another thirty percent additional capacity like what the industry is currently considering dynamic line rating, for example with add on devices. But we can do it if we allow the conductor to become smart, we can do that without any assumption. What's we have that you have real time condition monitoring of the circuit itself. This technology would also allow you
to do other things, for example extreme weather. You will be able to know the impact from extreme ice storm, hurricane wing or even wirefire. And there are some reports recently that utility are blamed for massive fires and the damages with our own conductor technology. If you have let's say transmission lining, a flash fire passing through the old wires are going to sag closer to the fire
right below. Why because the steer wires inside It's going to induce that soummar sagging and your conductor is going to be exposed to even more severe heat. Now you not only have a sagging problem, you are also anneeling the hard aluminums in this traditional conductor. So even if the circuit survives, those are no longer acceptable anymore because you have clearance violations. If you look at TIS technology, our aluminum is already fully aniel the carbon composite core that is protected.
It does not have a sag issue, So it's going to stay very high way above the fire right below. And even if you have heat on these aluminums that you may have a needi effect on the traditional aluminum in the traditional conductor, it's not going to affect our conductor either, So it's going to able to manage that fire situation better. And all of these are possible
with new technologies like GS. If I look at the US and you talk a lot about utilities, but there is a developer we admire a lot, which is Michael Skilly and kid United, and he has all these plans for this big transcontinental connectors. I've got the list here, the Continental Connector or the North Plane connector, the Picos West and the South lions on. Are you talking to micro Scaling and his team, Yes, we have, and I actually read the book superpower. I think he was a bit ahead of
time in those old days, and he's back in the game. We're talking to Great United, they're building new lines, and I wanted to make a point as well on that topic. Because there is the perception in the industry that the advanced conductor like ts, they're just too expensive, not affordable, not competitive in new transmission projects. We actually can prove them wrong. We work with Basic Electric, they build new transmission lines. We have to beat
ACSR technology in cost, in project level cost. So how do we do it. Our conductor has this natural low sag phenomena or attribute, so we
are able to spend the towers a lot further apart. You are able to build the lines with fewer towers means fewer foundations as well, or shorter towers or lighter towers at the same time, and that's how you can drive down the overall project capex you look at building new lines in the US, what I've heard in the past is conductor is only about five percent of the cost.
The structure associated cost is as much as thirty percent. You can easily save enough on the structure related costs like the towers foundations to pay for the modest premium of TS conductors, but the advanced conductor has to be properly market positioned because we are positioned for mainstream adoption, not a niche technology. That's why we call the TS its TORSU stands for total solution. It is competitive in terms of project costs in new lines as well as reconductoring, and it
is also good for distribution upgrade as well as transmission circuits. Jason, I just want to tell you that I've been following your business for many years this point in time, and I've always been a little bit hesitant to bring on businesses like yourselves because I don't want to be picking the winners or the losers
in terms of tech. But I'm very clear in my head actually that you are a winner, which is why I did what we get you on and really said I need to get this guy on, and you are now getting traction in this very difficult market. So I'd love you to talk about the future your business and how you see it over the next three to five years. We are blessed with customers, but we're also getting recognized by our industry as well. We won the Edison Pioneers in the Ways of the Year Award
October of last year. We won the PLATS Global Energy Award December of last year. I expect in about twelve to eighteen months that we're going to see that pivoting point in terms of technology, like ours are considered to be a BA line option instead of just the alternative, and we're getting there. There's
a critical mass that is building, especially with the bigger utilities. You only need a few of them to volume adopt your technology for others to follow, and we do have that mentality in that industry that no one wants to be the first, but at the same time, if somebody else did it, they're happy to follow. The second point is we are building a major East Coast expansion in the US and we expect to have that additional capacity becoming available
before end of twenty five. That is about ten times the size of our operation in Countingdon Beach, California. We will have a problem in terms of execution and a delivery to customer expectations instead of a demand issue. I think the demand in terms of conductors, we don't have to debate that it's going to be there. And in the US there's already a shortage in conductors. The lead suppliers require fifty to seventy week lead time and that's it outrages.
So we like to come in and the shelp utilities on that front as well. And in three to five years we also expect to have our smart conductor technology available to our grid customers. That is important because the digitization of everything in life should also apply to power grid and there's much more that we can do with conductor being smart, not just the conventional way talking about smart grid being a smart meter that you make a smart grid. And also we need
to bring better solutions for wildfire remediation. We have a solution actually we developed it was handpicked by PG and E in twenty twenty one for commercial pilot,
that's before they shifted their major focus toward undergrounding. And that is a technology that features smart optical fiber inside the distribution wire and we can add the insulation to our conductor that we can deploy that covered conductor with existing polls, maintain side clearance, keep the maximum tation under for example California win you basically can retrofit these high risk distribution circuit in fire zone without changing out or modify the
poles. That is the cheapest, fastest way to address grid modernization. Well, Jason, I want some thank you. You need to send me one matter so at home, Jason, thank you so much for coming on the show. Really great having you on the show. Thanks a lot, and we wish the best for Chess Connector and we put a link in our show notes. Thank you very much. Job. What is the most powerful sentence when you are selling a new technology? Won't tell me you'll see your money
back in three years? Oh yeah right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Let's face it, the cost of acrecy production has gone down in the past twenty years, but the cost of transmission and distribution has grown despite a stable consumption, and now that the consumption is expected to go up, it is absolutely critical that every utility up their game and start using new technologies like this one. These
are not fly by night. You know, They've been tested by next Stead, They've been tested by National Grid in the UK with very innovative in general. So I see a lot of future for those new conductor technologies. And actually I want to say another thing. I think now what's happened around is that there's a pain point that is now hitting grid operators and utilities because it's
not acceptable to have to wait four years to have a connection. And I don't care if you're a renewable developer or someone building a factory, it's not acceptable. So things have to change. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And look it's literally going to be all of the above because I just read an article. Yeah it was in PV magazine. Listen to this. Amazon Web
Services helps Duke energy complete powerflow studies in hours, not months. So what happened is, of course Amazon always looking for more load, more data centers and so on. And normally the ISO said guys, I need to run my simulation and so on, and it's going to take I don't know, six to nine months, and they say, no, no, that's just too long. We're going to put an AI application and they put the air application on all the modeling and they got the result within two days. That's
what needs to happen now. All those pilots, they should be rolled out literally everywhere. Otherwise we won't have an energy transition. Oh big statement. We won't have an energy transition. Let me just say, we won't continue electrifying our energy system. You're absolutely right on that. I'm totally with you. We have to embrace technologies, new technologies right across the energy value chain. Excellent. Well, we thank Jason for coming on the show. It
was eliminating. We thank our new partner A Mundi, great asset manager, very serious and very conscious about the environment. Well said my friend, and I think that's a good way to end this show, and I talk to you next week and forward. Thank you for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to read the show and subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or the platform of your choice.