Well, all right, everybody. Welcome back. Here we are another day. Dave and I are ready to roll with another podcast. How are you today, David? I'm good. I'm good, Scott. You're looking good. We had a great experience this past week in Institute David. We kind of took a little spin off of past podcasts and we spent the entire day almost through the entire class talking about the ordinance of the sacrament.
After that talk or that discussion we had, boy, I sure had a sacred experience this week taking the sacrament. What a sweet time to rejoice in the things that we learn here. We're able to set aside the effects of the fall in our lives, the spiritual and the physical death both. Yeah, for sure, Scott. We're really blessed. This is a great time of the year to feel thankful and be filled with gratitude. That's so important.
I hope my gratitude is really focused this holiday season towards the Savior, the Atonement. That's where we really need to keep our focus. If we do, we'll really feel the joy and peace of the season no matter what happens. Yeah, right. Yeah, no matter what happens. You know, my son just went back to jail. Oh, it's so sad and it's so hard and so discouraging, you know, in some ways, Scott, and hard to believe. But, you know, it's hard. He has so many challenges.
And yet he messed up on his parole and he's probably back there for a few months. But I am just so grateful for the Atonement of Jesus Christ that gives us peace and gives us greater understanding about our purpose here and the mercy and grace and compensatory powers and redemptive and enabling powers of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in each of our lives. And, you know, one thing I've learned, Scott, is that even in great sorrow, you can have great peace.
And, you know, I experienced that again this weekend. Great sorrow, but great peace and gratitude for the Atonement of Jesus Christ and family and all that we've been blessed with because of the restoration of the fullness of the gospel. You know, I have a question for you, David. As a parent, and I, you know, not all my kids are...
Anyway, as a parent with a son that's going through the types of things that, you know, your son is going through, which consequently means that you and your sweetheart, Chris, will be going through things too. Somebody once told me you're only as happy as your saddest kid. I think there's some truth to that, but I don't think that it has to be that way because you just said, you know, we have peace even in this. So as a parent, how do we develop that peace?
I know that, because I know you and I aren't the only ones. A lot of our listeners are in situations with family members that, you know, may or may not be participating in things that are bringing peace in that individual's life, which consequently, you know, kind of bleeds over into families, especially parents' lives. Dave, how do you deal with that? What's some advice maybe?
Well, you know, I've had lots of close friends who have not stayed active in the church because they had a wayward son or daughter, and I've never understood really that relationship or connection that someone feels that if they have a wayward son or daughter that they can't stay active in the church.
And the only way I think I can understand it is that their conversion is more into the church—I'm not being critical, this is just an observation—their conversion is more into the church than it is into the gospel of Jesus Christ. And there are some people—I mean, my son identifies with being gay, and I have some friends who have children who have identified as being gay, and they feel like they can't be active in the church because of the church standards or the church policy on being gay.
And I'm going, the focus should be on Jesus Christ and the love of Jesus Christ for each of our children, that they are sons and daughters of God, and that's where our focus should be. And my goodness, when I go to church, I learn about how Jesus is there for my children, not how the church is there for my children, I learn how Jesus is there to redeem me, not that the church is going to redeem me.
I just think that our focus when we're dealing with children has to be, again, in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, and not upon the policies, procedures, or stance of the church, or the members of the church. It just has to really be on Jesus Christ, and I know from my witness of the Holy Ghost that I've received that we are members of the Church of Jesus Christ, and our focus has to be in Him.
And I've said so many times before the experience I had with President Packer that if we don't do a better job of teaching and getting our children to focus on the atonement of Jesus Christ, if we don't do a better job doing that, then we do teaching them just commandments and a checklist gospel, we're going to lose our children. And not only will we lose our children, but we'll lose our own testimonies when our children are wayward. If our focus is not on Jesus Christ and His atonement.
So that's not a great answer to your question, other than when our focus is where it needs to be, it even gives purpose in this. For example, Scott, all that my son has been through being a fetal alcohol baby, when we adopted him when he was two months old, having been abused, quartered, taking him out, bipolar, and Asperger's and everything else that he has. And knowing that could be really make one feel hopeless and discouraged. And some days it does.
Some days that is how we feel until we remember that through the atonement of Jesus Christ He will be compensated for all of that, and that the Lord judges us and gives us mercy based upon our conditions, and that He consecrates all our afflictions, whether we choose them or not. He can consecrate through the atonement of Jesus Christ all our afflictions for our gain, whether that's talking about our children or the effects that our children have on us or others.
And you know, when it comes to children, Scott, my gratitude for the atonement of Jesus Christ is personal for what Jesus did for me, but I even think I feel greater gratitude when I know what my Savior did for my kids. And the same way, I am exactly that way. That my kids are covered by Him. And knowing that takes a lot of stress off my relationship with my children.
Instead of me trying to save them, instead of me trying them to get to fall in and keep a standard, I feel such peace when I know that Jesus has them. And instead of me talking about their behaviors, I just like to talk to them about Jesus and how Jesus has got them.
You know, I had an experience a long time ago, Scott, when I was a bishop, the bishop across the hall from me in our meeting house back in Minnesota had a son who was really struggling, who was a little bit of an Alma, the younger, and not doing what was right and getting into some trouble in high school and didn't have a great reputation. And this bishop one day came into my office to talk to me about it.
You know, bishop to bishop sometimes is nobody else you can talk to, except the bishop across the hall from you sometimes. Anyway, and we had a sweet relationship, we were good friends, and he came into my office and we talked, and we talked about the quote from President Boyd K. Packer years ago that true doctrine understood changes behavior more than a discussion of behavior changes behavior. And so we talked about that.
And I remember we both decided that with our children that when they were in trouble or they were misbehaving that we would choose to talk about doctrine and not behavior. So it wasn't more than a few weeks later, he's back in my office, and he's telling me about how his son came home drunk one night, just that weekend. He said, oh, bishop, it was amazing.
You know, he came home and instead of me getting all angry and mad and upset and yelling and getting into a, you know, a yelling match or a fight with my son, and if he would have gotten in a fight with his son he would have lost because his son was a big strong kid. And he said, you know, when he came home and he was drunk, I just said to him, I'll name him Chad. And Chad, do you believe you lived before this life? I don't know, his drunk son said. I don't know.
And his dad said, well, I know you did. And I know you didn't set on the fence there. You were valiant and you were true and you were faithful. Why are you setting on the fence here? And I don't know why, but probably because the spirit that was there, the spirit really touched that young man and he really thought about who he was. And just that little discussion of doctrine that those two had that night and then his son couldn't stop thinking about it.
It was a turning point in his life and I remember kind of the miraculous change that was. And it wasn't probably too much unlike Alma the Younger, when Alma the Younger had that experience when the angel appeared and the angel chastised him and said he was there because of the prayer of his father. And Alma says that when he had that experience, when he was kind of struck dumb, that he said the first thing he thought of was about the teachings of his father. Same with Enos, right?
When he repents and wrestles all day and all night and the Lord speaks to him. You know, the thing that led up to that whole event is that he remembered his father teaching about the joy of the saints. I know that that joy of the saints and I know that our focus on Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice is the most important thing we can centre on in our personal lives, in our homes, and with our families. Having a gay child, I don't talk about being gay.
I talk about the atonement of Jesus Christ. I talk about God's love for His children. Yes, I teach the doctrine about families and identity and that gender is eternal and pre-mortal.
I know that and I can teach that, but I can also teach that Jesus Christ is there for them and that through Jesus Christ that they not only can be forgiven of their sins, but they can have the enabling strength and power in their life to keep the commandments and they can have compensatory powers in their life to overcome any injustices or unfairness that they feel that they have received in this life.
That's a different discussion, Scott, than just talking about behaviours and the standards of the world and whether we keep those standards or not. And I'll tell you as being one of those wayward in the past kids that if I was approached in that way, it might be a little bit different story. Maybe not, but it definitely would have felt different inside and that's not an indictment on anybody in my life that may or may not have done those kinds of things.
But David, I think that we struggle as parents. We feel a responsibility and we have a responsibility. It's an important and divine vested in responsibility that we have to teach our children. But I know that I really made a lot of mistakes in teaching my children, but we all do to a degree. To varying degrees, we are all, you quoted Hope Floats a while back, what we're really all doing in our adult life is learning how to get over our childhood.
But I think we especially, and to me it just seems like in recent months, maybe even years, I don't know, but there's been a real emphasis on learning to love those that may not be in step with what we're doing. And that especially goes to our kids. In fact, we've received counsel from the pulpit and from the brethren that it's our job to love, just to love those that struggle. But as a parent, and I know I'm not alone in this, we've wondered, what does that look like exactly?
What does loving him or her look like exactly in a situation when they come home drunk? How do I love that kid? I mean, I know I love him in my heart, but how do I display that love, et cetera? And I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that was a nerve that I think potentially you hit with all of us that will be great counsel to all of us is to teach doctrine. But to do it in a loving way to teach that doctrine, to teach who's you are, who you are, who's you are. I love that.
Do you know that you existed before this life? Well, I don't know. I know you did and you weren't on the fence there. Why are you here? Yeah. And he said it was just a really sweet, tender discussion and experience. And it's like my dear stake president friend, you know, whose daughter left the church and he and his wife praying every night that she would come back, that God would change her or that they could as parents help to change her.
And the strong impression they both had simultaneously while they were praying. In fact, I think he told me they opened their eyes and they looked at one another and said, did you hear that or did you feel that? Yeah. And the strong impression was. Don't worry. I will change her. You love her. Your responsibility is to love her. And I think we could add and teach her if we will just love our children and we'll just strive to teach them.
Now, I believe in tough love and I believe there is a time where they may feel a little divine anger and that sometimes there's I believe in discipline. Believe me. You're a Durfee. Yeah, I believe in discipline and that straight as the gate narrows the way. But what I have also learned, Scott, is unfortunately most of our anger is because of fear and not because of love. And whenever it's out of fear, it's a sin. And we don't solve any problem doing that. We just exponentially make it worse.
Perfect love cast it out all fear. And yet, perfect love will sometimes be tough love. And there has to be, I think, certain expectations and responsibilities and consequences and accountability. There's no agency, Scott, without accountability. There has to be consequences and accountability. I mean, that was the very essence of what we fought over in the pre-moral existence. We've covered that before in another episode.
But I believe what the Bible Dictionary teaches, that the war in heaven was about accountability, really. Because if Satan could destroy accountability, meaning that there was no consequence for sin, meaning that it was just whatever you feel, anything goes, the Church of what is happening now and I'll save you, that was, I believe, Satan's proposal. If there's no accountability and there's no consequences, then there's no agency.
So I believe in accountability, but I know that all of that has to be administered in love. And if love isn't there, and when I say love, I mean love of a parent, and even going higher than that, the perfect love that casts out all fear is the love of Christ, which is charity, which in my definition or way of looking at it, is charity is the ability or the gift of the Spirit. It is a gift of the Holy Ghost.
To have real charity is to get a glimpse of how God sees us, how God sees my son, how God sees my daughter. That's charity. And then I'll use my parental love and the gift of charity to discipline my children, to try to teach my children. I think that's kind of the process, and again, none of us are perfect in it. I'm a sinner, just raising sinners. You're a sinner raising sinners. None of us are perfect at this, and guess what? God knew we wouldn't be. It was part of the plan.
It was part of the plan that we come to a celestial world, that we don't see everything perfectly, we don't know everything, we walk by faith, we continue to learn and progress. I think—I don't know, no study, no judgment here, but I know some suicides are the result of Satan, individuals shaming themselves to such a point where they feel so worthless and so trapped that they see no way out.
And I think that's based on two doctrinal misunderstandings, or not knowing, ignorance, not knowing these two doctrines, of the fall that we would all sin, God knew we would sin, and that that was not only going to happen, but He meant for it to happen. I mean, He doesn't want us to sin. God doesn't, right? No, but part of the plan is that we do sin, though. We know He can't look upon sin with a least degree of allowance, amen, but He knew we would.
And it was part of the plan, that we live in a hellish world, and that we have these carnal bodies, and that we would sin. Well, Dave, if we didn't sin, and if it wasn't possible, or if it was possible for us to not sin, then where would the need of the Savior be in our lives? Well, that's the second doctrine. Exactly. So the second doctrine is, if you really understand the fall, we shouldn't just shame ourselves and beat ourselves up over and over again. God knew that this would happen.
Second, we have a Savior and Redeemer there for us, who will, through His mercy and His grace and His offering, and through His sacrifice and His suffering, that all is ransomed, all is made up for, all is covered by the Atonement of Jesus Christ, if we will access the Atonement of Jesus Christ in our lives through faith. I know a lot of us have considered this. I know a lot of us have thought about this. I know some of us may have even worried about this.
And I think it's important that we address this, because this is something that I believe every parent, every spouse, even every child, anybody in any relationship, you know, are going to have these things to think about in their lives. And David, as we've taught over the last 30-some-odd episodes, we've really focused on the solution of the fall. And let's just summarize the fall. There's two effects, basically general effects of the fall.
We have a spiritual death, we have a physical death that came because of the fall of Adam and Eve, the fall of us all. And everything that we have in this life that is uncomfortable or not aligned with our Heavenly Father is a result of the fall. Yes. Our sicknesses, physical death. Our addictions, physical and spiritual. Mostly spiritual. And so many other things. Emotional. Emotional illnesses. Yeah, that's all. Mental illnesses, social injustices, social inequities.
All of those things are the result of the fall of Adam and Eve. I think that's really, really critical. I felt impressed to give a patriarchal blessing to a young woman who I felt like, in fact, I warned her of her, I didn't know her, but her parents commented about it after the blessing Sunday, was I warned her to, I can't remember the wording, not to get hung up on perfectionism. And I said, you must understand that you are a daughter of Heavenly parents and a daughter of Adam and Eve.
I think that's so important, Scott, that we understand that our spirits are so good and inherently so pure. That our physical bodies are, we're messed up and we have these challenges in our life and they are all part of the plan of redemption and that we have to accept it and acknowledge it. I think it's one of the keys of that, the whole repentance course. I do too. The first one, right?
The first key of the whole course, which we've tried to teach in this podcast, is to understand really who we are. And that includes not just that we're sons and daughters of God, and that doesn't just include whose we are, that we are really children of Christ because of his atonement and he purchased us with his blood, but it means that we understand that we are all sons and daughters of fallen parents, Adam and Eve, and that we were born with the seeds of sin in all of us.
It runs in our blood and we have natural, we are all, when it says that we are the natural man and enemies to God, it's true for all of us. Now again, we can overcome that through the atonement of Jesus Christ and become as a child and humble and meek and all of that. But that takes a lot of effort. We are inherently righteous, quoting Elder Holland, but we are naturally evil. We are dual beings, spirit and body, and there is this continual battle that we all face daily.
And we have to understand that, and that when we give in to the physical and we give in to temptation and the carnal, there is no reason to just give up and throw our life aside or waste it or shame ourselves and throw in the towel or quit trying because Jesus suffered for that.
It's almost a mockery of His atonement if we don't, if we are not willing to not only accept it, but apply His blood in our behalf by living the gospel, by participating in ordinances, by receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost in our life. Those are all part of it. When we study the fallen, and I think the second thing will be our gratitude for Christ's suffering for us. Yeah, second key.
But before we get to that, as we study the fall, one of the first things, and this has been something that's been in front of me because of the experiences of others who I'm sponsoring and addiction recovery programs, or maybe even some that I may be working with in my ward as part of a leadership position that I hold there, et cetera. But I think so often when we're thinking of the fall, one of the main things that came as a result of the fall, I think is our inherent desire to hide.
That was the first- Like Adam and Eve. Like Adam and Eve, one of the first things they did. They were encouraged by the enemy to hide. I think we're often encouraged by the enemy to hide as well. And I think that we look at that experience that Adam and Eve had, and to us it seems silly. It's like, what are you guys thinking? He sees you. He knows where you are. You cannot hide from him. But at the same time in our own lives, we take on, make decisions, we make mistakes, we whatever.
We tend to sometimes hide too. And we sometimes, I think, take on that same thinking that Adam and Eve took when they were in the garden, hiding from Heavenly Father. I think that that can be a problem for us sometimes. Isn't that such a great story, Scott? And we don't know how literal that story is. We don't know how literal it is, or symbolic it is, or how those events- The principle remains though. Yeah, oh, definitely.
Yeah. So, and I love it, because it's a story about not only how Satan shames us, but the other part of that is he says, look, you're naked. Yeah. Meaning, you're exposed. Truth is, Scott, we're all naked. Yeah. In this life, we are all naked. And we are all exposed to the law. And that without Jesus Christ and the atonement, which again, Kaffar covering- Covering. We have this covering. And this whole story of Adam and Eve in the garden, and the coats of skin, or the garment is the covering.
Do we, do you think we have any idea or understanding what we're putting on as covenant members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when we put on the holy garment? We're putting on the atonement. We're putting on the covering of the atonement. I just think that's so sacred. I don't know why anyone would not want to have that on them at all times, if possible.
And it's just such a great story right off the bat in the Garden of Eden about how we're all exposed, we're all ashamed, we all seek to hide. Think you're right. That's the natural man in all of us. But then God says, make coats of skin. And cover them. That's the atonement of Jesus Christ that He would provide for us, a Savior. Well, and that brings us, I think, to the second point here, right, is our gratitude. Second key. Yep, the second key.
The whole course we've tried to teach is gratitude for the atonement of Jesus Christ, Scott. Gratitude is the beginning of desire. I believe gratitude is that little seed that we plant in our heart in Alma 32, the Word. That's the Word. And Alma says it's the Word in the next chapter, in chapter 33. He says, plant this Word in your heart, which is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
If we plant that little Word or seed in our hearts, and we begin to feel gratitude for what Jesus did for us, and we understand, and we go to the garden, we go to the foot of the cross, and we get a glimpse of what Jesus suffered, not only for us, but what He suffered because of us. Oh, gratitude gives us all the desire and all the forward momentum that we need to be able to move on through the repentance process and the plan of redemption.
So number one, again, first key is knowing that we're children of Adam and Eve, fallen, lost, carnal, sensual, and devilish, as the Book of Mormon teaches, all men have fallen. And that was part of the plan, that God knew that would happen. In fact, last week, I meant to say this week, last week we talked a lot about penal substitution and how— As one of the atonement theories.
Yeah, as one of the atonement theories and how some churches see that Jesus Christ fulfilled the wrath of God, or that He had to somehow pay the price to appease the wrath of God. We talked last time about how He wasn't appeasing the wrath of God, but He was making a propitiation for the law, that He was fulfilling the law through His suffering, not the wrath of God. And if you don't understand the fall, you'll totally miss that.
The reason He wasn't fulfilling the wrath of God is because God knew that we would sin. It was part of the plan that we would sin. And it doesn't make Him mad. That Adam and Eve was part of the plan, that He actually, by their agency and in their own time, that they would fall. That was all part of the plan.
We're not mad at Adam and Eve because they fell, and yet I think we're the only Christian church that believes that the fall of Adam and Eve was a good thing, and that that was all part of the plan, not a mistake, and that God's still mad at them and mad at us because of the fall and because we're all sinners. He's not mad about that, and there's no wrath from God because of that, because that was part of His plan.
So, to understand the fall also helps us better understand the atonement theories and why we believe a little differently than others believe about that.
But if we could just all understand the atonement of Jesus Christ as the second key, our hearts would be broken, our spirits contrite, we would feel such love and joy for our Savior and Redeemer that it would give us all the motivation we need, Elder Scott says, the highest motivation is gratitude for Jesus Christ and His atonement to give us the motivation that we need to work our way through the plan of redemption and repentance. And even the desire to do it.
Right, from the beginning to the end. Even the desire. So, when we talk about gratitude, I know that a lot of our listeners over the course of our podcasts have sent emails expressing a newfound or a deepened gratitude for the Savior and His power through His atonement for us. And I feel that. But you know, we talk about these things, the fall, that's the first key. The second key is understanding the fall, not just the fall, but understanding the fall. That's the key. The doctrine of the fall.
The doctrine, understanding the doctrine of the fall. And being thankful for that too. Right. And gratitude for that and for the suffering that came or that Jesus went through as He enacted the atonement for us. But in order for us to have that gratitude, David, we have to do what you said. You know, you said at the foot of the cross, when we go to the foot of the cross. We have to look unto Him in every thought. Doubt not, fear not. Behold the wounds that pierce my side.
Behold the prints of the nails of my hands and feet. And Elder Holland, many several years ago now, gave this amazing talk about how he met a few women in an airport and became familiar with these women. And I think a couple of them out of the three were in the process of getting a divorce because their husbands were addicted to pornography and some of the sadness of all that.
And Elder Holland gives this amazing talk about how to focus on Jesus Christ and how to overcome lust, and talks about the ugly word of lust. And he makes a statement kind of in that, what were those men thinking? When they look at that stuff, what are they thinking? Well, they're not thinking about their wives. They're not thinking about their mothers. They're not thinking especially about Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Or they wouldn't look at that stuff.
They wouldn't have the—now again, we're all carnal—but they would have the desire if they would think of Jesus Christ and His Atonement, and if they had sufficient gratitude for it, Scott, they would have the desire to not look at that stuff. They would have the desire to do what's right, to be more virtuous, to do good works. Good is the beginning of desire, at least in, I think, in regards to living the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And if individuals—I know I've experimented with this through my life, tried to observe this in my life—and I know that when sometimes I am not feeling the desire to go to church, keep the commandments, to do what's right, whatever, I always think, okay, what's the level of my gratitude?
And there's an inextricable link, Scott, I've learned, at least for me, there's an inextricable link between the level of my gratitude for Jesus Christ and His Atonement and the level of my desire to keep the commandments. I think that's true with all things good. In recovery, one of the things that, for example, I've had this experience with in the last two weeks, I've had a Sponsy call me, not in a great spot, and seemingly hopeless.
And when that's the case, there's a little trick, it's not really a trick, but there's a little thing that we do in recovery, and that's to encourage each other to make a gratitude list. And, you know, as part of—I have a book that I do my nightly inventory in, and, you know, I'm not 100% on it lately, but I do this nightly inventory, and as part of that, I incorporate a gratitude list, just three or four things.
And I try to do those, and we encourage each other, actually, to do those on things that maybe aren't as obvious, maybe just stretch ourselves a little bit. It's really interesting how despair and discouragement really find it difficult to coexist with gratitude. Yes, yes. And that's true—that's just a true principle throughout life, but it becomes divinely true.
Well, it's all divinely true, but it's especially divinely true when we're talking about our gratitude for Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and everything that that means. Not just the title, not just what we talk about in Sunday school class, not just what we talk about or hear about, you know, over the pulpit or from—even from the brethren. That's all important.
But it's when we put the practice in our lives, when we actually start practicing those things, those principles, where that gratitude becomes more than just something we talk about. At that point, gratitude becomes almost ineffable. There's not really words that can be used to describe the power behind that, because it does shape our desire. And once that desire is shaped, I believe the depth of our desire is equated also to the depth of our gratitude. Yes, no doubt about it.
And when we have that deep desire, it moves us into the next key, David, I believe. Okay, right. So that we're getting to the third key. But I remember President Eyring years ago, a prophet, encouraging us to make a list of gratitude, where we see—where did you see the hand of God in your life every day? So I think that we've been encouraged by the prophets to do that.
I know that it's—the Scriptures are full of it, that we should live in thanksgiving—thanksgiving this month, Scott—that we should live in thanksgiving daily. Oh, I love that in Alma. And it's, you know, in the Doctrine and Covenants as well, the thanksgiving daily.
And especially, not all, you know, again, atheists and others can probably be thankful for people and other things, but really the gratitude that has, I think, the greatest power and influence in our life is when we can focus our gratitude on Jesus Christ and His suffering. I had an interesting thought today, Scott, driving over here, thinking about Heavenly Father and the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and some of the things we were going to talk about today.
And I had this sweet little thought that, you know, Heavenly Father, if He could have, He would have come down here and died for us. Now, I know for many other Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity that they believe Jesus is the Father and the Father is the Son, and that they're all one. But we know, as members of the Church Jesus Christ, Saturday Saints, that the Father is a resurrected, holy being, a God who once lived on an earth or wherever, and that He is a resurrected, holy being.
He couldn't come down here and die for us, but if He could have, He would have. And I often think we don't ponder enough the sacrifice of the Father in offering His holy, precious, only-begotten Son in the flesh, and how hard it would have been as a parent. We know, right? As a parent, sometimes you'd just rather suffer it yourself. It would just be easier for me to suffer it than to watch my children suffer it. I know some parents have prayed for that. Give me their sickness.
I wish I could die in their behalf. Some parents who have lost children. I know that. I understand that. We should have one of those couples on our podcast soon who lost their son to brain cancer. And parents have prayed, give me the affliction. I believe the Father, if He could have, He would have taken that upon Himself. But He couldn't, because He was a resurrected being.
But He had this precious Son who, from the very premortal council, grand council in heaven, said, send me, and I will do it. The will of the Son swallowed up in the will of the Father. Not my will, but thine be done, He prayed. And I just thought, how grateful we should be, I should be, for the sacrifice of the Father, not just the sacrifice for the Son. And when I think that, Scott, it fills me with gratitude. That is unmatched by any other gratitude I believe we could feel.
That's the pinnacle of gratitude in the mortal experience. That's been my experience at least, right? And I've experienced a pretty deep depth, I believe, of gratitude for what Heavenly Father did. I mean, and Elder Holland talked about, I believe it was Elder Holland talked about how when Jesus hung there on the cross, that Heavenly Father, when He turned and left Him there alone, how He must have just felt the torments of eternity in that moment.
So anyway, gratitude and such a great time of the year for us to contemplate that principle. That's something I think that we could invite our listeners this week. It's probably appropriate anyway. We are in the month of November to kind of focus on gratitude. Where's our gratitude? Where's our level of gratitude? And if it's not sufficient, and sometimes it's not, that's part of our inventory that we take, right? Sometimes my gratitude's lacking.
And oftentimes when there's things that are out of sorts or disconcerted in my life, I struggle sometimes to discover it, which is amazing because I have had experiences to show me this truth. Yet I still go back to the natural man and struggle with it. But if I work on my gratitude, it's interesting how that can be the anecdote to so many other things in my life that aren't well.
Well, since this has kind of become a Thanksgiving podcast, it sounds like, I want to say something else about gratitude. You know, Scott, I once heard this came from a student of mine. And this sweet student raised her hand. And I don't know where she got this. I know she gave me the source and I don't have it with me. But she quoted this line, and I've never forgotten it. It goes something like this.
The highest level of gratitude is to be grateful for blessings that you see but have not yet received. Now think about that for a minute. The highest level of gratitude are for blessings you see but you have not yet received. The people in the Book of Mormon who looked forward to Christ and His redemption were so grateful for that. And it gave them desire and motivation even before He had carried out, before He had gone to the garden, before He.
They could see it because of the teachings of the prophets. They could see it. They knew about it. But it hadn't even happened yet. And yet they were filled with gratitude for that, Scott. In our situation now, the atonement's in the past. We have a pretty complete, more complete historical record of it in the Gospels, in the Book of Mormon and other places. Jesus has appeared with marks in His hands and feet. We know it's in the past.
It sometimes is easier, I think, to be grateful for past events and experiences. But the highest level of gratitude is for the future events and experiences. Now think about this for a minute. Jesus is coming, Scott. I've been in Adam on Diamond, and I have seen in my mind's eye and with an eye of faith the coming of Jesus Christ. And I have been filled with gratitude. And I don't know if it's daily, but I think about that every time I pray. And I can see it. I know it's coming.
I know it's real. That level of gratitude for the coming events, of the coming of Jesus Christ, when all of the earth will be changed, and when we'll come to this terrestrial state, and when a resurrection will occur and loved ones reunited, and the Gospel go forth, the gathering continues in a pace that's not possible here. When I think about all those future events, Scott, I am filled with gratitude.
And further, when I contemplate going to my heavenly home, when I try to see and get a glimpse of heaven and returning to the presence of my Heavenly Father with my children, seeing Him, I think for our listeners it's so important to understand the power of gratitude, thinking about past blessings, daily blessings, Jesus Christ and Him crucified and His atoning sacrifice over almost now 2,000 years ago, but the highest level of gratitude is when we can see blessings not yet received.
And when it comes to my son, Scott, when it comes to your son, when it comes to our children, since we started talking about that, I think one of the real sources of power in being a parent is not seeing them as they are, but as seeing them as they will become. And I can see my son, he'll have a lot of work to do, and he'll need to exercise faith in Christ and obtain this level of gratitude and understand who he is and whose he is. And I know, I know there's a lot of work here, but I see him.
I see him in white. I see him in the holy robes of the priesthood. I see him there. I know that he's covered. Now honestly, that is the highest level of gratitude. And that level of gratitude, by my estimation, and I think I'm right on this, can only come one way, and that is through a constant study of courtship.
It's a constant study of the atonement of Jesus Christ and a constant courtship of the spirit of the Holy Ghost in our lives to administer the effects of the atonement in our lives and in the lives of those that we love. And even in the lives of those that we don't love. We talked about forgiveness and the importance behind that. That can deepen our gratitude as well.
So all of these things, and we probably will just wrap with gratitude today, but all of these things, I think David, we think about that and the gratitude of things that will come. Once we've done that, once we've tapped into that power, once we've tapped into that understanding, once we have courted and we have the spirit of the Holy Ghost in our lives as a constant companion, that they may always have his spirit to be with them. Once that's true in our lives, then it's not just the end.
I mean it's even effectively even things in this life. For example, if a person comes that's struggling with an addiction problem, alcohol, drugs, pornography, cutting, bulimia, anorexia, whatever that is, but to know and to have faith that that can be healed or at least the effects of can be healed only through the atonement of Jesus Christ.
The only way that can happen is if we deepen our gratitude because as we learn about that, that gratitude will just naturally deepen and as that gratitude deepens, that then turns into faith or hope that those things will actually materialize in our lives. Yes, and the third key, which we don't have time to talk about today, is faith. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his atonement.
But there is this connection between our level of gratitude and our level of faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement and it's described perfectly in Hebrews chapter 11. This is the great chapter in the New Testament, Paul's chapter on faith and he talks about the faith of the ancients, the faith of the patriarchs, and he talks about the faith of Abraham and Sarah.
And in the description that he gives in chapter 11, I don't have my Bible open right here, but I think it's like verse 13 or 14, somewhere in there, it says, they saw from afar off the promises not yet fulfilled. That is the highest level of gratitude and I would say maybe the highest level of faith.
And those two things are connected, faith and gratitude, to be able to see things afar off, not yet fulfilled, to have the gratitude of blessings we see with an eye of faith, but have not yet received. As members of the Church of Jesus Christ and as children of our heavenly parents, you know, we should seek that eye of faith to be able to see the promises that he has in store for each of us and for each of our children. I'll just conclude with one quick story.
I have a really dear friend, such a sweet man and family, who had a son that was just in all kinds of trouble with addiction and drugs and dealing drugs. And, you know, it was just really hard and heartbreaking. And he traveled quite a bit in his business and once he was in Chicago and he felt this desire to go to the Chicago temple and he was sad and praying for his son and he went through the veil and he's in the celestial room and he's praying and he's praying for his son.
His heart and mind is old as son and he's praying for him. Then he has this impression to look up and look towards the veil. And he looks up and he sees his son dressed in the robes of the priesthood coming through the veil into the celestial room. It was like a vision, a dream, but he's wide awake and he sees this. We used to have some really difficult talks about his son, Scott, and after that experience he never worried about his son. He continued to love him, tried to teach him.
All he worried about really was trying to always maintain a sweet relationship with him because he could see in the end how it was all going to turn out. That doesn't mean there's not some sorrow and some pain when you see them suffer in the present, but when you can see things so far off, the promise is not yet fulfilled. Wow. And as individuals who have made covenants and as we keep those covenants, we've been promised that our children will be ours forever and ever.
And I not only have faith in that, but I've received a glimpse of that and we should all seek to have that experience. Anyway, so happy Thanksgiving. Happy Christmas this month. That's the two of the keys of this course, understanding the fall and increasing our level of gratitude for the atonement of Jesus Christ. Next week we'll talk about the other two keys. Which are faith and the administration of the Holy Ghost in our lives.
We spent quite a bit of time talking about the administration of the Holy Ghost, so I'm anxious to continue that dialogue because there's so much, and it's so important, there's
not a more important topic that we can talk about. As I've lived my life and as I've gone through, as I've chosen many of my challenges and not chosen some of my other challenges and have come to believe and have faith and gratitude that the atonement of Jesus Christ can heal me of the effects of not just those things that happened to me, but those things that I perpetuated against myself and maybe against other people, especially when it came
to and still comes to the separation of the spirit in my life, right? I'm just grateful since we're talking about gratitude. I'm grateful today to know, to have an understanding of the fall of Adam and Eve, to understand that there is a spiritual death that we are all still very much involved in, that there is a physical death, that we are all, and when we say physical death, I think that just automatically we go to, well, I'm not dead yet, but we're
dying every day, we're dying. We're all deteriorating so faster than others. And so many of our earthly challenges come as a result, not so many, every single earthly challenge that we have comes as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve, whether that be spiritual or physical.
I won't go back and say all the things I said at the beginning, but those are all important and it's important for me to understand that because for so much of my life, David, I believed that Heavenly Father was really disappointed in me, even mad at me, even disappointed to
the point where it would be like, Scott, don't even bother. But to come to know and understand that even those difficulties, even sometimes maybe my bad choices, Heavenly Father knew that was happening, he planned for it, and that gratitude that I have for the atonement of Jesus Christ becomes so deep, and I use the word ineffable, which means there are no words to describe it. My experience with the atonement of Jesus Christ and my gratitude
for it is literally ineffable. There are no mortal words to put that can describe the depth and the importance of that in my life. You know, as we go through the rest of this month, we are in November, we invite you all, we invite all of us actually to continue to
consider the things that we're grateful for. Consider making gratitude lists. Consider putting on that gratitude list the fall of Adam and Eve and where are the implications and the benefits and the blessings in our lives that come as a result of that fall. And next week as we move into the next two keys of this repentance and forgiveness experience that we go through, I think that we'll be better prepared to have those conversations
if we do that this week. So, hey everybody, have a great week. It's been great. Great to be with you, David. And you as well. Happy Thanksgiving to everybody and look forward to this great holiday season. We have a couple of great episodes that are planned and coming up and in terms of guests. So we look forward to releasing those as they are done as well.
Hey everybody, take care. Remember that you are redeemed through his blood. Remember that there are very few things in this life that gratitude can't and understanding the fall of Adam and gratitude for the atonement of Jesus Christ and for Jesus Christ himself and his suffering. There's very few things. There's not actually nothing in this life that can't be made better by having a deeper and a better understanding of that. God bless. Take care. We'll see you all next week.