Hey there everybody and welcome back to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. My name is Scott Durfey and joined as always by Uncle David. Hi Dave. Hey Scott, you're looking good with your makeup on. Scott's got makeup on and his face doesn't show all the blemishes. This is a face for radio for sure. Yeah, radio for sure but he just got through getting off of TV. Where they make me wear that stuff. What do they call that TV channel you're on? I'm on the TD Ameritrade Network.
Yeah, so if you want to get to Scott's take on investments and technical analysis of the market you can see him on there and he looks really good with his makeup. Yeah, once again a face for radio. I feel like we digress though so I do look forward to today's topic. Last week we had a great discussion. I think we kind of ended on five blessings that come from understanding the doctrine of the fall of Adam and Eve.
Again if you haven't heard that yet I encourage you to go back and listen to that and maybe even revisit that. David and I have been actually discussing the effects of the fall in our own lives as we've been sitting here this morning. I should say specifically the effects of the fall in my own life. Oh, all of our lives Scott. We all are affected by it. Every day. And aren't we grateful to know that? That's the solution.
I was left to my own devices to just try and figure it out with no solution. It would just be hellish insanity I think. So we just had a little short discussion but before that discussion Scott what were you feeling versus once you acknowledge the fall in your life you understand that it's part of mortality. You kind of know that that's who I am. I'm just human. I'm just a human but then you remember as soon as you say that, hopefully you remember, that however I am a son of God.
I did come from the premortal realms of eternity fathered by a heavenly father and a heavenly mother Jesus Christ. I mean once you acknowledge and celebrate your humanness the very next thought should be however. And it should allow you to accept the bad thoughts, bad feelings, bad things that happen in our life and to quickly, quickly maybe sometimes not so quickly, maybe moments, maybe hours or days, but that you come back to the truth of who we truly are eternally.
We're only humans for a little while but eternally we are sons and daughters of God and Jesus Christ to get us through this short probationary period, this period in which we suffer all the negative effects of the fall, we should just be really grateful for that knowing that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ we don't have to accept all of those negatives and that we can act and not be acted upon over and over and over again and that we can
choose because of the atonement of Jesus Christ not to accept those bad feelings in our hearts, inappropriate emotions, not accept the inappropriate thoughts and weakness of mind that we all go through every day, but that through the atonement of Jesus Christ I can overcome that, I don't have to accept it and that with His help that He can even change that.
What a blessing to know that too and we know that but also because we're human it's easy for us to sometimes forget it, for it to become clouded or whatever. I was actually talking to my sponsor about this, I mentioned this to you, but I sponsor guys in recovery, well I need to be sponsored too and I was talking to him about it and I was like, his name's Dave too.
I said, you know Dave, I just struggle because I do this podcast, we try and teach people who they are and all of that and then I struggle with my own fears, my own insecurities and I feel like such a hypocrite because here we are trying to help people to understand the importance of these things. We're all hypocrites Scott. You reminded me of that this morning which I'm grateful for. We're all hypocrites. We never live up to our full potential and we never would.
To do that would mean that we have become perfect, complete, totally finished. We're not, we're a project here. This is an experiment, not an experiment in God's eyes, but this is part of His plan and it's a project and the important thing is that we're learning. That we're growing through our oppositions and temptations and that we're progressing.
Now before I got here and you said yesterday you were kind of struggling with this and that's when you talked to your sponsor and maybe you've been feeling a little off spiritually. Maybe a lot off. But when we talk about these things Scott and it comes back to your mind and you remember. It makes a difference. It does. It makes a big difference because it's been different Dave.
After having sat here and counseled with you for several, well for about an hour or more this morning, that's the thing that's relieving to me. I know that you're all fallen. I know that we talk, I haven't felt very celebratory about the fall this week, but we should celebrate the fall. That's right. You don't when you're given into it. Yeah, thank you. I just got called out by Uncle Dave when you're given into it. I know it is and I'm okay with that.
I have been given into the effects of the fall in my life for whatever reason. I've been listening to, I've been believing the accusations of the accuser to some degree. Now it's not bad. I mean it's all relative. It's bad enough that it's been an uncomfortable week for me. Not an entire week, but the last few days. Anyway. Well, your pride comes into that. Our ego comes into that. False traditions that we've learned from our fathers and our mothers. False ideas. The world that we live in.
Comparing ourselves to others. Seeking the wrong things in the wrong places at the wrong time. It's just all part of mortality, Scott. Right. I wonder how hard it's going to be. Well, maybe I should rephrase that. I wonder how hard it is for some people, myself included, to ever be okay with it's okay that we're falling.
I don't think I'm really articulating that the way that I'd really like to, but to get to that point where I think I see other people, that they'll have that feeling, they'll have that fear, they'll have that inadequate feeling or insecurity or whatever. And to just be accepting of it. Now I know that the process to get to that is to understand who I am and just as important, probably way more important, is to know Him. And I do know Him.
I do know Him. And I know that it's through His merits and it's through His sacrifice and it's through His suffering. Not my own. I don't have to suffer through His. Through His righteousness. Yeah, not my own. Through His merits. Again, not my own. And I have to be okay with that. And I have to be okay with what I perceive the world to think of me because of those things. And that's sometimes where I get a little tripped up.
Scott, I'm sure in the last 24 hours I've had a multiple number of false thoughts, inappropriate emotions. We swim. We swim continually like fish in a sea of mortality. We're never going to be free from it. But the moment I am aware of it, and I think it's really important that we become more mindful and aware that what we are feeling is not coming from me. It's not who I really am, but it's because of the mortality that I've been placed in. It's the conditions that I live in.
It's the temptations that Satan is free to place in my path. The afflictions, everything that goes with the false, Scott, if we're aware of it, number one. And then number two, we immediately remember that it was part of the plan, that part of the plan was that we would experience sin, afflictions, and all the inappropriates that we experience daily. That's part of the plan, Scott. And then that we have a Savior who felt it all, suffered for it, who has redeemed us.
And it goes back to that quote that we several times redeemed humanity is greater, more glorious than unfallen humanity. Would have ever been. Would have or could have ever been. I don't know.
I just think so many times we just, we drift in the rivers of mortality without ever giving thought of what the plan was, really what the plan of redemption means, and then to remember immediately when we have our inappropriate thoughts, feelings, emotions, or even when we act out on those, that we should immediately bow our head and we should say thank you.
And we should think about the Father's plan, His sacrifice of His Son, and the Son's sacrifice of purchasing us, suffering for us, redeeming us through His blood. Right. And I think that's exactly the reason that we're doing this, this podcast. I think that's one of the reasons that I'm so adamant about learning this and teaching it in our Institute class that we'll teach again tonight.
Yeah. And helping others in recovery that are somewhat inclined to these types of thoughts and feelings as well. Well, I know it blesses us. Yeah, it does. My real prayer and motive is that it will bless my children and my children's children and my family, extended and immediate, and others who may accidentally find out about the podcast and those who are enjoying it. And I'm grateful for, again, the positive response that we've had.
But let us rejoice, let us thank God for all of the inappropriate things we feel every day, remembering that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I can choose not to feel those things every day. Right. I may feel them, but I don't have to linger in them. I don't have to be controlled by them. I can choose to change them or have them changed through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. You know, I think I trick my, I don't trick myself. I have this belief that's erroneous. It's inaccurate.
And I'm becoming aware of this belief as part of my inventory that I try and take on a pretty consistent basis. But that belief is that I have to fill it all the way through. You have to suffer it for yourself. All the way through. I have to suffer it until I'm done suffering or until it goes away. Or that I have to control it. Right. Yeah. What's wrong with me that I can't control this?
Exactly. Instead of turning to Christ, and as I mentioned to you specifically about some of the fears and anxieties that you've been feeling lately, Scott, that you immediately pray with all energy of heart for love. And that's the point. And He, He will change the fear to love. And perfect love, or the love of Christ, is what replaces our fear. Perfect love casteth out all fear. Yeah. Now, I can't do that on my own. I can't do that on my own. I don't even, I don't know. I'm like you, Scott.
I'm mortal, natural man fallen. And I probably do sometimes still try to do that on my own. I'm sure I do. But I don't have to do it on my own. And that's what we forget. Instead of immediately when we feel fear, you gotta, number one, you have to acknowledge it. You have to be aware of it. You have to be mindful. I cannot believe how many times I feel fear every day.
But I have learned that most of the time, I'm not perfect at this, most of the time, I can then pray with all energy of heart, Moroni 748, pray with all energy of heart, which is the emotional center of our being, symbol of the emotional center of our being, pray with all energy of heart, that He change it to love, that I pray for His love, charity, the pure love of Christ. And immediately my heart will flip and my thoughts flip and my life has been changed.
You just went through the first three steps again. And it's interesting how that really does kind of work its way into all of these conversations. You just said, you know, I have to admit it. I have to recognize it right out of the gate. You can't change it if you don't. Or it can't be changed. I keep saying you can't change it. I don't believe that I can change it. I don't believe I do change it. I know that comes from a higher power.
And then the second two parts of that or the second two steps are what does change it. I came to believe that a power greater than me could restore me to sanity, could get rid of my fear, could get rid of my insecurities, could get rid of all those crazy things I'm feeling. He can do that. Jesus Christ, my Savior. And then the third step is broken heart and contrite spirit. Made a decision to turn my will and my life over the care of God as I understand Him.
And it really is pretty much that simple. That's the gospel of Jesus Christ as I understand it, Scott. I agree. And that's addiction recovery as you understand it. Yeah. And they don't seem to be all that different. Interesting how that works, isn't it? Yeah. And the power that can flow into our lives, whether you're a member of the church or not. Right? Right. Exactly. I mean, I see absolute truth. It's not relative. And it doesn't matter which organization you belong to.
The only thing that matters is who you trust. That's right. But you got to know Him. And where's your heart? And then you got to make a decision to turn your will and your life over to Him. And that's the process. Well, I got Sunday, I just went off on that heart thing. Yeah. Why don't you talk about that for a minute? Well, it was Valentine's recently, right? Yeah. I'm not sure when we're going to publish this podcast, but it was Valentine's recently.
And I've always, I don't know why, but I've always, I think because of some of the statements of the brethren and just over the years and a long life, I've come to believe that Valentine's Day is one of the most sacred holidays of the year because it focuses on the heart. And the heart is everywhere in the Word of God, in the Holy Scriptures. It's everywhere. And it seems to me like the bottom line is, what's the condition or the desires or the thoughts and the intents of your heart?
And so I just went off on my children and grandchildren Sunday thinking, Hey, when you see hearts on Valentine's Day, I just don't want you to think about romance and sexual relationships. I want you to think about where is my heart? Who have I given my heart to? Where does, where does my heart belong? Have I given my heart to God or to other gods? Who do I love? Who do I truly love? That's what we should think about.
And nobody believes in romantic love, by the way, Scott, more than we do, because we believe that it's eternal and that it's sacred. And I just think it's, it's all about your heart. And I don't think that I can change fear from coming into my heart, but I know that perfect love in Christ can, and that comes to us as a gift because we have prayed with all energy of heart for that gift and that it can be bestowed upon us as a gift.
Moroni 748 says it's bestowed upon those who are true followers of Jesus Christ. But I just, I'm grateful, Scott, for the fall. I'm sorry that it causes all of us such consternation when we forget that it was part of the plan and when we forget that the atonement of Jesus Christ has redeemed us from it. And when we forget that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, we can choose to act and not just be acted upon by mortality in the fall.
And when we forget that we agreed to the conditions of mortality before we came here, because of at that point, at least at that point, we knew where our hearts were. And we've talked about this before, Dave, recently, the war in heaven continues. The war in heaven knows no boundaries, right? We call it the war in heaven, which seems to give it boundaries, but it knows no boundaries. It's alive and well here. And that's still what we're fighting today.
But we knew that those conditions of mortality would be here. We also knew that those conditions of mortality would be satisfied in every way by Jesus Christ. Covered, covered, overcome. We can overcome the world because Christ overcame the fall. And I just I hope and pray that I can remember that you can remember that Scott and our listeners can remember that that we can thank God for the plan of redemption and salvation, which includes the creation, the fall and the atonement.
There's another thing that comes up when we think about the fall, and it's also a condition of our mortality. And we didn't talk much about it last week or even the week before when we talked about fall. We may have alluded to it a little bit, but I'd like to talk about it in some detail, if you don't mind, Dave. And that's this concept of sin. You know, what about sin? You know, we we we know that sin is part of our our mortal experience. We know that it affects us.
We know that none of us can sin in a bubble. And that means that we're also affected by the sins of others. Talk about that a little bit. Well, first of all, Scott, I sin gets a bad rap and it should because it because it can keep us from God. But but listen to this scripture. And if I too, if there is no sin, there is no righteousness. What does that mean, Scott? If there's no sin, there's no righteousness. If there be no righteousness, there be no happiness.
And if there be no righteousness or happiness, there be no punishment or misery. And if these things are not, there is no God. I just the plan of God demands that there be sin and that there be opposition. And if there weren't sin and there weren't opposition, there would not be righteousness and there would not be exaltation.
So I number one, I think we have to just understand that sin is not just the I mean, I know Satan is the source of all sin, but that sin was part of the Father's plan and and it's not that he created it. God didn't create evil. OK, I know that's a whole long philosophical thing that has been written about and books and and plays and everything else been written on. Is God the the author of of evil?
Well, God is not the author of evil, but it is part of this universe because people will always have their agency and there will always be a choice between good and evil. God did not create agency. That is part of that's the ultimate thing that he tried to protect. And if it were not for agency and if we were not for good and for evil, then there would not be righteousness. There wouldn't be happiness, ultimately.
So I just think that we again need to understand that sin is part of the plan, that we all understand that we're going to experience it, either that we're going to act out and sin ourselves, of course, and we do every day, and that we're going to experience the effects of sin from others every day in in some way, minor or major, but that we we just understand the plan. I like you know, you're reading from Second Nephi, chapter two. I'm going to read verse eleven there, too. That that one.
Yeah, opposition in all for there must needs be that there is opposition in all things and then skipping down. If not so, righteousness not could could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Therefore all things must be a compound in one. Wherefore if we should be one body, it must needs remain as dead, having no life, neither death nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
So yeah, I love that the doctrine that we get from Restoration Scripture and others as well, Dave, in this topic, but just really help us to understand our relationship with mortality and sin.
You know, where this is kind of I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's it's kind of funny and it's true that when I when I moved to Minnesota, I became and that was in my thirties and and moving from Utah and our culture and moving back to Minnesota, I moved back among a wonderful group of people who are Lutheran. I mean, a large part of Minnesota, they're Norwegians and Swedes and and they're it's heavy Lutheran country. And I loved listen to Garrison Keeler.
And I even went to a few of his shows. And if you don't know Garrison Keeler, you ought to you ought to look him up and listen to his stories about Lake Wobegon. These are fictional stories, but stories that I think that he to some degree lived through. He grew up in Minnesota and then he became a great playwright and author. And anyway, he ends up back in Minnesota and he does this this. It used to be on public radio every week. Yeah. Lake Wobegon, Garrison Keeler.
And I found it delightful the way he would talk about sin because Lutherans know their sinners, Scott. Yeah. Lutherans know their sinners and they have accepted that in their life. And I found that to be somewhat healthy to to see myself as living in a place of sin as a sinner. I you might you're probably going to have to cut this, Scott. But he tells the story of he says, you know, Lutherans, we we all know that we're sinners. We all know that we're sinners.
But he said, my my cousin didn't believe that she she didn't believe she was a sinner. So she went to California. She went to California and she became a stripper. And that was because she didn't she didn't think of herself as being a sinner. Well, there were so many stories just and anecdotes about sin that Garrison Keeler would share. And I began to kind of think about it. And it's scriptural, Scott.
Yeah. The Paul identifies it in Romans that we're all sinners and they've come short of the glory of God and John in his letters in the epistles of John that anyone who says that they're not a sinner is a liar. I mean, we're we just have to accept that fact.
And then as soon as we accept it, acknowledge it, we just talked about this, then we need to remember we need to remember that the atonement of Jesus Christ allows us to choose not to be acted upon, but to act and to choose not to sin and to quickly speedily love that term in the scriptures, speedily repent when we do sin. So I think it's it's a critical that we acknowledge. I think there's a parable in Luke 18, 9 through 14, Scott.
And I want to I want to read this in terms of this discussion for just a moment. Luke 18, verses nine through 14. Why don't you read it, Scott? I've been talking too much. You read it to nine through 14 of Luke, chapter 18. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others. Now, just let that set in. What's he saying? We all I don't know if I can speak for everybody, but I think I probably can.
But I'm pretty sure a few people just had a few faces go in front of them. We've all had this experience, right? So start over. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others. Two men went up to the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee, the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself. God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are extortioners, unjust adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week. I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican standing afar off would not lift up so much of his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me, a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. For everyone that exalted himself shall be abased, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. What do you get out of that? Well, I get a lot out of that.
I remember back, I'm looking at my old missionary scriptures right now, but I remember back at a time having this discussion with a couple of missionaries. What does that mean to humble yourself? And what does it mean to be abased if we don't? And I think that wisdom through age, through living life, gives us meaning to that scripture. I think that we all pretty well know, or we should know, kind of what that means.
I know that when I am humble, when I'm humble, I'm inviting the Spirit of my Heavenly Father to be with me. My heart's open. You're talking about heart. We're talking about the effects of Valentine's Day and the representation of the heart. If my heart's open, then I have that, and I feel humble. But if I make myself prideful, which is, you know, I experience this, and maybe I've experienced some of this lately.
If I become prideful, if I become the guru, if I become the expert in my own mind, so to speak, then eventually I become abased. Now what does abased mean to me? That means just knocked right off my horse, Dave. Yeah, it just sets you up for failure. I mean, I just think it's so interesting the way Jesus in this parable compares these two individuals, you know, the one who fasts twice a week. Come on, some of us don't have our time fasting once a month. This guy fasted twice a week.
And he says, and I give tithes of all I possess. I pay my tithing. I'm doing all this stuff. And then he says, and the publican standing afar off, he would not lift up so much as his eyes to heaven. I mean, he doesn't think he's going to make it to heaven. And he smokes upon his breasts and he's kind of sackcloth and ashes. And he's saying, God be merciful to me, a sinner.
And Jesus says, I tell you this man, the sinner, he went down to his house justified rather than the good guy who fast twice a week and pays his tithing for everyone that exalted himself shall be abased. And he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. I just I'm so grateful that in the scriptures, the doctrine is very clear that without Jesus Christ and his atonement, none of us have a shot. And I heard the I heard the individual who wrote the Bible dictionary say this got in a in a meeting.
I don't think he ever wrote this. I've never I've never seen it in writing of all the writings of Brother Robert J. Matthews. If somebody can find that for me in writing, I would love to have it as a source. But I heard him say this and I think multiple times. And he said, you know, even if it were possible that we could keep all the commandments without Jesus Christ, we'd still go to hell. Even if you never sinned, you would still go to hell.
And then his reference for that, of course, the second Nephi nine. And he talks about the fact that without Christ and the atonement, because we're all tainted by sin and we all spiritually die and we all physically die, that there would be no hope for us because there would be no resurrection. And if there's no resurrection, none of us have a shot. We would all not just we would all not go to heaven, but we would all become the sons of perdition of perdition.
We would sons and daughters subject to the devil, subject to the devil. Yeah, I think that's Reverend Emerson. Exactly. I just think it's critical that we appreciate our sins. I remember President Faust many years ago. In fact, I love this so much. I've kept it over the years in in some of my notes, but President Faust and I remember how humble he used to be, how humble he was. I remember the story he told about not cutting wood for his grandma. He watched his grandma.
He tells the story and he cried when he told this story of watching his grandma cut firewood as a young man and him not going out to help her and how bad he felt about that for so many years. I mean, that was the humility of President James E. Faust, an attorney, a prominent attorney and so much. He had so much going for him from a worldly view. Yet he was still in the depths of humility. But he grew up in Delta. That's it. Delta rabbits and humble, humble circumstances.
Anyway, he wrote this is in the April 1991 conference. The denial of our own sins, of our own selfishness, of our own fall and weakness is like a crown of thorns, which keeps us from moving up one more step in our personal growth, perhaps worse than sin is the denial of sin in our lives. Think of that, Scott. Perhaps worse than sin is the denial of our own personal sins. I think that's what Jesus was teaching in that in that parable.
So as we think about sin, it's, I think, really important that we that we talk a little bit more about it. And I love this this quote from President Brigham Young. I think we quoted this before. The spirits that live in these tabernacles were as pure as the heavens when they entered them. They came to tabernacles that are contaminated by the fall. We're kind of wired, really, kind of as fallen mortal beings, Scott. I think it's kind of in our physical DNA that we will sin.
We're contaminated in the flesh. We're not totally depraved, but we're contaminated. And then he says this scripture from Psalms, which says that in sin did my mother conceive me. OK, we don't believe we're conceived in sin, but we do believe that we are conceived in a world of sin by sinners, mortal parents.
This scripture has established in the minds of some the doctrine of total depravity, that it is impossible for them to have one good thought, that they are altogether sinful, that there is no good, no soundness, no spiritual health in them. Well, this is not correct. Yet we do have a warfare continually within us. We have to contend against evil passions and thoughts or the seeds of iniquity that are sown into the flesh through the fall.
Elder Bednar said, in mortality we are all tempted by the flesh. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption and death. But we can, through the atonement of Jesus Christ, increase our capacity to overcome the desires of the flesh and temptations. When we make mistakes, as we transgress in sin, we can repent and become clean, even changed through the redeeming power of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
So when I think of sin, Scott, I think of darn it, I did it again, but I don't flog myself, beat myself up, condemn myself. There should be no condemnation or contempt towards ourselves or others because we sin. And we shouldn't identify with it either. And we shouldn't identify with it. We talked about that several episodes ago as well, that our identity should not be attached to these mortal experiences, sin or otherwise.
You know, because of the fall and because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, Elder Bruce Hafen used to love it when he would teach, because of these doctrines, the doctrine of the fall and the atonement, we may learn from our experience without ever being condemned by it. We can learn from sin without being condemned by it. And I think that's just a really healthy way to see it.
Now, it's always better, of course, this is at President Benson, it's always better to prepare and prevent than to repair and repent. We need to remember that, Scott. I like that. It is always better to prepare and prevent rather than repair and repent. So, please, we shouldn't use the doctrine of the fall as any excuse or justification, self justification to sin. However, it is part of our daily life.
And elders Richard G. Scott, we shared a lot of quotes today on this doctrine because I think the brother taught it so well. But Elder Richard G. Scott said years ago in conference, you must know that Saint can have no power over you, even though we may sin, Saint can have no power over you except as permitted. Get this, by fear, by your indolence, your disobedience and your natural man appetites. As you remember, you are an eternal being with latent capacities derived from divine parentage.
You will not allow yourself to be limited by the confining world, mortal fallen world, that Satan would have you believe is all that exists. If you think it's too hard and that you are too imperfect and you will not be able to do it, you are slipping into Satan's world. Garner strength by remembering that you can do anything the Lord asks you to do through the power and grace of His atoning sacrifice. When needed, He will see that you get the required help as you do all you are capable of doing.
And sometimes all we are capable of doing Scott is to cry out for help. Sometimes all we can do is to pray and to repent. And even sometimes that crying out will require just a ton of effort and energy on our parts. I see that as I see people come in to the rooms of recovery. I know of a couple of individuals right now and at any given time I could make this comment, but I know of a couple of individuals right now that are struggling with their addictions.
You know, which we could call sin, call it what you want it to call it, but it's because of the fall that we struggle with that. For sure. But until we really understand and getting back to some of the things that we've talked about until we really understand who we are and whose we are and that relationship and how it all comes together for us, this doctrine can be difficult.
And that's why that's and I don't know maybe difficult is the right word to use, but it can be difficult for some to swallow or to embrace. But I think that's why we talk about the things that we've talked about before we talk about this for that very reason. Once we've established that and know who we are, know who He is, know whose we are, know that His redeeming blood has purchased us, then that is a more smooth transition.
As I transition out of those mortal experiences, some of those we talked about this morning, as I transition out of those mortal experiences and into the love of Jesus Christ and His redeeming sacrifice. And as I transition into that, it's less, it requires less effort if I have that understanding before. Yeah, no doubt about it.
You know, the problem with sin and the reason we condemn sin and the reason God condemns sin, right, is because it leads to spiritual death and it takes us away from God and it destroys relationships on so many levels. It destroys relationships. Elder Scott said in his description of sin in the General Conference 2009, he said, sin is addictive. I think that's probably true, Scott. I do too. Because of the natural man mortality, how we're wired, it seems like all sin is addictive.
And he says, he goes on to say, it is self degenerating. It is conducive to other strains of corruption. It is deadening to our spirituality. It destroys our conscience and our reason. It is blinding to reality. It is contagious. It is destructive to mind, to body and spirit. It is spiritually sin, he says, is spiritually corrosive. Unrestrained sin becomes all consuming. It is only overcome through Jesus Christ and our repentance.
That's quite a damning list of the effects of sin and what sin, the definition of sin. Well, that's one way to look at it, is damning. The other way to look at it is because of the way that Elder Scott, is that who? Because of the way that he positions that, is an understanding of that doctrinal truth becomes freeing also. Yeah, right. Freezes from all of those things that we talk about that do so easily beset us.
We read Nephi, just last week, we talked about how Nephi and these things that do so easily beset me. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Just drifting. Yeah. Going with the flow. You know, James in the Bible, he defines sin as doing knowingly, doing wrong when you know what is right. Right. Right. You know, there's so many people I think who don't have the law or don't have the commandments or don't have, they're not sinning because they don't know. They haven't, no one's given them the law or the commandments.
On the other hand, Scott, all mankind has the light of Christ and all mankind has a conscience and if they would listen to their conscience, they would know the basic principles of right between wrong. And Elder Uchtdorf, President Uchtdorf on this kind of, in this same vein, his definition of sin is quote, sin is the willful transgression of divine law. The atonement of Jesus Christ is the gift of God to his children to correct and overcome the consequences of sin.
God loves all of his children and he will never cease to love and to hope for us. Christ came to save us, to redeem us. If we have taken a wrong course, the atonement of Jesus Christ can give us the assurance that sin is not a point of no return. A safe return is possible if we will follow God's plan for our salvation and redemption. I love that he makes this point. I think that was kind of the title of his talk, the point of no return. Sin is not.
It never will be a point of no return because of the atonement of Jesus Christ. You know, I used to get asked the question a lot, Scott, about this may be a good place to answer it and address it. Maybe some of our listeners have asked this question. What about the sons of perdition? Will they ever be able to repent? Will they ever be able to come back? Can you progress from kingdom to kingdom? What about murderers? Okay, I asked that question to Brother Matthews.
We were actually in the car one day. He had come back, flown back to Minnesota, staying in my home and was teaching our… I was the area director and we had all the coordinators come in from all over the Midwest. Brother Matthews was teaching us about the fall and the atonement for one whole week, eight hours a day. Oh my goodness, that was a week I'll never forget.
And then staying in our home and I would stay up late with him asking him questions, get up in the morning and study the scriptures with him. Anyway, we were right in the car. This was in the car. And we were coming back to my home from having eight hours of instruction from him. And I just asked him, I get asked the question a lot, Brother Matthews, about sons of perdition. Will they ever be able to repent?
And I think I had probably taught over and over again that no, where I am… I mean this is right, Doctrine and Covenants section 132 and many other places where God says no, where I am they cannot come, world's without end. And it sounds pretty final. So I was a little surprised by his answer and he turned to Doctrine and Covenants section 29, Scott. Let's just go there real quickly and take us a minute to turn to it.
But let's go to Doctrine and Covenants section 29 and this is a description of the sons of perdition. I love this revelation given through the Prophet Joseph Smith in Fayette, New York about six months after the church had been organized in 1830. And in describing, let's start with verse 28 Scott and he's talking about sons of perdition here, verse 28. Wherefore I will say unto them, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
Everlasting fire, it sounds pretty permanent. Sounds everlasting. And verse 29. And now behold I say unto you, Never at any time have I declared from mine own mouth that they should return, for where I am they cannot come, for they have no power. Right. So they have no power. Again that sounds pretty final. But Brother Matthews emphasized the first line of verse 30. But remember that all my judgments are not given unto men.
So Brother Matthews just in his personal commentary, this was to me, just him and me, and so I don't even know if I should be sharing this story. But he said, so I don't know David, the Lord says to remember he hasn't given us all his judgments. He hasn't told us everything. He hasn't told us from the beginning to the end. We don't know everything and all his judgments have been kept by him and not shared with us. And he said, I hope, I hope that there's still maybe a chance for them.
Well we just, we don't know. But I know I don't want to have to experience outer darkness. And maybe some, it'll be, right, it'll ultimately depend on individuals and choices that they make and who they want to give their heart to and where their heart is. But we need to not condemn the worst of sinners. We don't, we don't know. We condemn sin. But if Jesus can't condemn a woman caught in the very act of adultery, who am I to condemn me? Who am I to condemn you? Who am I to condemn anybody else?
We hate sin, but we love sinners. I've always thought this was interesting. I don't know who said this, but I heard this once and I wrote it down and I'm sorry I don't have a source. But someone once said, we cannot break the commandments. We break ourselves against them. Sin is a gross form of self-deception. Will you read that again? We cannot break the commandments. We break ourselves against them. And then again, the self-deception? It's self-deception. Sin is a form of self-deception.
What do you mean by that? What does that mean? We know what's right or wrong, you know? Terry Warner's written about this, Arbinger and others, you know, which I've loved. I think sin is to blame and to blame ourselves, to blame others, and to not sin means that's what it means to be blameless. But we are always, when we are sinning, we are deceiving ourselves. Again, if we don't know what the truth is and we don't know what the commandments are, that's a different deal.
But we do have the light of Christ, and if we go against our conscience, that's self-deception. If we ignore the light and we go against the light, that's self-deception. And really, Scott, it's as simple as we feel prompted to do something good, and if we don't do it, we are sinning. There's two kinds of sin, Scott.
There's the sins of commission, where we break ourselves against the commandments, or we break the commandments, or to omission, the sins of omission, where we don't do what we know is right. And I think that can be as simple, I mean, there's every degree of sin possible, and I think it can be as simple as I feel impressed to go to do something for my wife, to go get something. This is so silly.
But this morning I was going downstairs and I noticed my wife had left her plate and her McDonald's cup and her stuff upstairs in our little loft, you know. And I thought, I should go get that and throw that away for her. And did you? And I thought, well, no, she did that, you know, that's her trash. That sounds like an example straight out of the book. I'm just saying, it's this simple, it's simple little things.
And then I caught myself, Scott, and I thought, no, follow your conscience, do what you know is right, do good here, do some good. I had gone down the stairs about three stairs, three steps, when I thought all that through in a flash. And believe me, I am so imperfect at this and so many times I sin, every day I sin because I go against the light of my conscience.
But this time, this one time, I stopped, I went back up the three steps, went into our loft, got the paper plate and the wrapper and the McDonald's cup and trash and took it downstairs and threw it away. Well, you did right. And I thought, she'll probably never know that, she'll probably not notice that or know that or think about it. But I did what I knew was right. If I wouldn't have done that, Scott, I would have sinned. And you would be feeling like I feel right now. Well, I feel like that.
I'll feel like that later today. Right, because I have, well, yeah, and I say that somewhat flippantly because I have an experience very similar to that. I was in the grocery store just this past week, and I'm in a hurry. I had to run in and grab something and hurry back because I had to teach a class online and I only had a short window to in which to do this and it was snowing and cold and it was just terrible.
And so I come running out, oh, and I had worn my running shoes and so my feet are wet now, and I'm cold and I didn't bring a coat. And so here I am, classic example. I'm extolling all of my own virtues. I'm such a hard worker. I'm just, I'm running this errand probably for my wife or whatever. I come out and there's this guy with his hood up. He's parked right next to me. Parked right next to me.
He's got his hood up and he's trying to make this battery thing work to charge his battery to start his car. I have jumper cables in my truck. I had the thought, I know you're feeling bad for me now. I had the thought, Scott, you should really help that guy. You definitely should. I ignored that. I saw that. You ignored that prompting. I did. I ignored that. And that was a week or so. That was the last week since our last podcast, but I have been haunted by that.
I wish I could find that guy, right? But it is self-deception because I'm deceiving myself to thinking I am too busy. What the heck's wrong with him? Why won't his car run right? Why isn't he keeping it maintained? And I start going through all these justification things in my head while I get in my truck. Lights are flashing on my dashboard because I need something fixed and I drive home. Well that reminds me of the story that's told.
I don't know the source or the exact context of this, but there's a teacher. He's teaching a religion course. This may have been BYU religion or institute or even some other church at some other seminary. I don't know. But there's a course taught on religion and they've been studying the New Testament and they're going to take a test on the Sermon on the Mount. And this is an important test. It's going to make a difference in their grade, right?
And the teacher plants on the way they can only come to his class a few ways. And he plants in all the ways that they can come, the way they can access the classroom. He puts in these people, these individuals who are asking for help, who are, I don't know if they're begging, but they're definitely in trouble. And it's obvious. And they need help and it's obvious.
And all of these children, all of these students come into class to take a test on how they've mastered the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes and yet they have ignored on their way. It's one thing to know it. And they all fail the test. The teacher tells them the test was how many of you helped these individuals who came in today? And if you didn't, you haven't mastered it.
Anyway, so true, Scott, that we all, when we ignore the promptings or the light of Christ, it's amazing how we all do that multiple times, probably a day. Someone said this, sin is a shortcut gone bad. Sin is a shortcut gone bad. Now, I don't know, do you know what that means? I've had some bad shortcuts. There's no question about that. I think some of those I could possibly. I think for many people, Scott, sin is a shortcut to try to find happiness.
Sin is a shortcut to try to get something that they want without it, without the timing being right or without the place or the person or all of that. So I think that this is really appropriate that I think sin is usually don't know that's perfect definition of it, but I think it's usually some sort of shortcut. Right? What? What's what's my outcome? What's my pain? What's the word they use in the in the dictionary? Recovery? What's my payoff? What's my payoff?
Yeah, yeah, they're looking for a payoff. Yeah. And they're looking for it in a shortcut sort of way. Oh, yeah. That leads to sin. Yeah. Yeah. That they're looking. They're looking for a payoff. And and heavens, I've had people I've had students tell me that, wow, alcohol. Drugs, those kinds of things. Wow. They really have a great payoff. Yeah. Until until they don't anymore. Truth. I mean, and that really is the truth until they don't anymore. Sin has its appeal, Scott.
Yeah. Sin has its appeal. It is a shortcut. And when you bring that up, you know, in a rediction addiction recovery kind of lens, so to speak, that's it's it's all about that. It's all about that there. It's how do I change the way I feel? We all know. Well, we don't know. But we know that we can change the way we feel.
We talked about that at the beginning of the podcast by simply praying with all earnestness of heart to ask for Christ's love to be in our lives or in the lives of those that we're struggling with. And that takes some effort. That takes some humility. That takes some work. And it seems easy. You know, the accuser or the saint has made it look a lot easier for us if we can just change the way we feel through drugs or alcohol than we have accomplished seemingly and erroneously to think this.
But we think seeming seemingly that we've changed the way we felt. Well, there's no shortcut to redemption. No, I know that there there are probably lots of shortcuts to hell. But there's there's no shortcut to redemption. And and yet it's not difficult and it's not confusing. It really is simple and it's not always easy, but it is simple. And I know that all sin, all sin can be forgiven. All sin. I mean, that's if we're teaching doctrine, there's two sins that cannot be forgiven.
And one of those sins cannot even be pardoned. You know, first degree murder, I think there's many different degrees of murder, but certain degrees of murder are unforgiven, unforgivable and denying the Holy Ghost is unpardonable. But all other sins are forgivable. Sin is forgivable and sin can be overcome because of the atonement of Jesus Christ. And there's no shortcut to what he did for us. The price he paid, there was no shortcutting that he went through it all. He felt it all.
He felt all sin. He felt all spiritual death. He suffered it all and for it all. And there's no shortcut in us receiving that gift or that sacrifice by receiving him and repenting of our sins and becoming a true follower and disciple of Jesus Christ.
And I pray that we might acknowledge sin, we might understand it, what it is, how it presents itself to us in our lives, that we'll understand that it's part of the plan, the plan demanded, it will always be, always be a part of our mortality, and yet through the atonement of Jesus Christ, we can overcome it, be free from it. Not always, not continually, not forever, but be forgiven of it and free from it as we repent and are forgiven.
And we can overcome through the atonement of Jesus Christ, which we're going to, such an important part of the course, we're going to start talking about the atonement of Jesus Christ in the next few weeks.
And we can not only overcome our own sins, but we can overcome the sins that have been committed against us, carried out upon us through the atonement of Jesus Christ by forgiving, which is also a gift of the atonement of Jesus Christ, to be able to have the power to forgive others as we forgive.
And so I look forward to moving on from the fall and sin and the negative effects of mortality and to talk about in the coming weeks the power and the blessings, the gifts of mercy, grace in our life through the atonement of Christ. Today we have focused on the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve, the effects of the fall of us all. And as we've done that, we've focused quite a bit on sin. We focused also on our own deception in various ways and so on.
Next week we will have a guest on, we've already recorded this and it's a wonderful recording of some friends of ours who have also experienced the effects of the fall in ways that we haven't talked about. Well, I guess we talked quite a bit about it when we had Jorian Mandy on it earlier this season as well. But this next episode we're going to be looking into the effects of the fall in a way that I think many will also be able to relate to. So we invite you to join us next week as we do that.
This week we invite you to consider and take a look in our own lives where maybe self-deception has entered in, where maybe sin is finding its way into our lives in ways that keep us from the spirit of our Heavenly Father. And I promise that as we do that and as we rely on the merits of Him who's mighty to save even Jesus Christ our Savior through the power of His Atonement, I promise us that we will all be able to feel the effects of the Atonement rather than the effects of the fall.
And that's our prayer. We're grateful to be with you. Thanks for being with us today. And for all of your support, please remember that you can send us emails and suggestions to heredeemsus at gmail.com. Thanks for being with us, everybody. We'll see you next week.